1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Chris Hipkins is in Liverpool for the UK Labor Party conference. 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: It comes as the party back in New Zealand looks 3 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: at a wealth tax or a capital gains tax, or 4 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: potentially both, this while their British counts parts are being 5 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: absolutely hammered in the polls at the moment over a 6 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:20,640 Speaker 1: series of what you could call gaffs and also spending scandals. 7 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:23,159 Speaker 1: Chris is with us this morning, Chris, what have you 8 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 1: learned over there? He's stars down in the poles, he's 9 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: cutting winter energy payments. Things aren't looking good for him. 10 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 2: Oh and there's interesting challenges here that are similar to 11 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 2: New Zealand, and there's challenges that are different. I guess so, 12 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 2: I mean the similarities. Cost of living crisis is clearly 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 2: still a big issue here, as it is still a 14 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 2: big issue in New Zealand, issues around tackling climate change 15 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 2: and sustainability, and the kind of the bigger question of 16 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 2: how do you grow an economy that on a per 17 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 2: capita basis has been stagnant? You know, these are similar 18 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 2: issues and similar challenges that we face in New Zealand. 19 00:00:54,200 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: Did you bond over your mutual drop in the polls? 20 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 2: Look at early days with them, so they have the 21 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 2: luxury of a five year term, so he doesn't have 22 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 2: to go back to the polls for another five years. 23 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 2: So I think at this point, you know, they're just 24 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 2: focused on doing the early things they need to do 25 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 2: in government. 26 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: You have to go back to the polls in twenty 27 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: twenty six. Will you be the leader? 28 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 2: Absolutely? 29 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: You want to be. 30 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 2: You want the job absolutely, And you know, coming away 31 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 2: here and looking at you know, some talking to people 32 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 2: about ideas about how we can actually move New Zealand forward, 33 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 2: it's actually left me even more energized. I think there 34 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 2: are some big challenges in New Zealand. They're going to 35 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 2: require some fresh thinking and some new ideas. I'm taking 36 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 2: the time to make sure we generate those new ideas 37 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 2: that are twenty twenty six election is not going to 38 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:40,240 Speaker 2: be a rerun of the twenty twenty three election, and 39 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 2: you know, we've got to be focused on the future. 40 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: Let's talk about a couple of his ideas and see 41 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: whether you're into them or not. Where you can quick 42 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: fire these. He wants long term sickness beneficiaries to start 43 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: looking for work. Good idea, bad idea. 44 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 2: Oh look, I don't want to get into discussing UK politics. 45 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 2: So if you want to ask me about things in 46 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 2: the New Zealand context and New Zealand policy. 47 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: All right about in New Zealand. 48 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 2: In New Zealand, I don't want to provide a commentary. 49 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 2: I don't want to provide it. 50 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: No fair enough in New Zealand. In New Zealand, would 51 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: you be on board with long term sickness beneficiaries having 52 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: to look for work? 53 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 2: No? I think I've got a system in place at 54 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:16,839 Speaker 2: the moment that sets out clear expectations around long terms. 55 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,359 Speaker 2: There's beneficiaries and then I'm quite comfortable with that. 56 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: They have a limit there. And again this is a 57 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: New Zealand question. Would we limit a child benefit allowance 58 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: to two kids max? 59 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:29,560 Speaker 2: No? And I wouldn't support that. 60 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 1: Would you reduce the window energy payment to help pay 61 00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: the bills, the government's bills? 62 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:36,239 Speaker 2: No. I mean there's a different issue over here in 63 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,959 Speaker 2: the sense that it was a universal entitlement over here, 64 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 2: whereas it's not a New Zealand. 65 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the elephant in the room, the capital 66 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: gains tax, the wealth tax. A lot of news in 67 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: New Zealand about that. Antonia, the head of the A 68 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: and Z Bank has said that she thinks we need 69 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 1: some sort of capital gains tax. Can you just clarify 70 00:02:55,200 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: for people, would that cover the family home? If if 71 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 1: your family who's saved up your mortgage free, you've got 72 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: a rental property, would you ever be hit by either 73 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: of these? 74 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,959 Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't be happy with taxing a family home 75 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 2: and gains on a family home. And the other questions 76 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 2: really are hypothetical because you know, we haven't committed to 77 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 2: a particular form of capital gains taxation. But I think 78 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 2: what we've got to acknowledge is at the moment, the 79 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:25,239 Speaker 2: New Zealand tax system is loaded against working people. Working 80 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,959 Speaker 2: people end up paying more tax because we're not kept 81 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 2: taxing other forms of income. And as our other comparable 82 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 2: countries do. There's capital gain stax here and the UK 83 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 2: is capital gain stacks in Australia and so many other 84 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: countries that there isn't in New Zealand. And what does 85 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:41,840 Speaker 2: that mean. It means that salary and wager and is 86 00:03:41,880 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 2: the people who work hard every day for a living 87 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 2: end up paying a disproportionate share of the tax because 88 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 2: we're not taxing other forms of income. 89 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: So this is not about solving the housing crisis for 90 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: you a capital gains tax. It's about fairness, it's both 91 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 1: of it. 92 00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 2: It's about both things. I think we have the. 93 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: Tax Working Group. The Tax Working Group has said that 94 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: it wouldn't solve the housing crisis, it wouldn't help to 95 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: bring prices down. 96 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 2: Well, I think you've got to look at that. There's 97 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 2: a range of things that have led to people into 98 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 2: New Zealanders putting money into the property market instead of 99 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 2: other forms of productive investment. Taxation is only one of 100 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 2: the things that you've got to look at there. You've 101 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 2: got to look at a range of other things as well. 102 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:24,599 Speaker 2: I doerly don't think taxing income from capital capital gains 103 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 2: on property, for example, would hurt the housing crisis. I 104 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: think it's likely to be helpful, but it's not going 105 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 2: to be a solution. There's no one thing that's going 106 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 2: to solve the housing crisis in New Zealand. It's going 107 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 2: to require a range of different things. 108 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: In the UK, they've got a capital gains tax, they've 109 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: got an inheritance tax. Look at the state of their NHS. 110 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: Isn't your bigger problem convincing keyways that if you do 111 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: do a tax we will actually get some benefit from it. 112 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 2: Oh, we've got to make sure that New Zealanders see 113 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 2: the benefit of any changes that we would make to 114 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 2: the tax system. They've got to see what's in it 115 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:57,839 Speaker 2: for them. 116 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 1: Stats n Z put out the General Social Survey yesterday. 117 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:04,320 Speaker 1: This is for twenty twenty three, So this is when 118 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: you guys were in office twenty twenty one to twenty 119 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: twenty three. Trust and the health system down, education down, 120 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: Parliament down, police down, courts down, people's sense of belonging down. 121 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: Do you take some responsibility for those numbers, of course, 122 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 1: but we've. 123 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 2: Got to recognize that those numbers were on record highs 124 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,560 Speaker 2: just three years ago during the COVID nineteen pandemic. We 125 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,040 Speaker 2: saw record levels of trust and confidence in government, and 126 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 2: now they're coming back down to more like the levels 127 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 2: that they were before the pandemic. 128 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 1: So you're saying that this is actually a good thing 129 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: or a normal thing. 130 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:41,159 Speaker 2: No, not at all. I'd love to see those numbers 131 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 2: stay higher. I think we've actually got to work really 132 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 2: hard to make sure that our democratic institutions are ones 133 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 2: that inspire confidence and trust from the New Zealand public. 134 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 2: I think they are taking a bit of a knock 135 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 2: in recent years. I think we do need to take 136 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: that seriously as politicians. We need to make sure that 137 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 2: we're making the changes to the way our democratic system 138 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 2: operates so that we're increasing public trust and confidence. 139 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,599 Speaker 1: Is anyone doing the numbers against you and the Labor. 140 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 2: Party to be No, absolutely not, absolutely not that I'm 141 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 2: absolutely confident that I have the full support of the 142 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 2: Labor team. 143 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: Hey, the nuclear free moment, obviously it's been well for 144 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: five six years now since just Cindra Durn's proclamation. We've 145 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 1: now had in the last twenty four hours Todd Energy 146 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: come out and join the likes of method X and 147 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: OG and Windstone and they are making cuts at Todd Energy, 148 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: which is hugely concerning. Do you concede that what you 149 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: did with the offshore oil and Gas band has had 150 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: an impact on investment here and it is costing jobs, 151 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 1: good regional union jobs. 152 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,160 Speaker 2: No, absolutely not to totally reject that rhyme and the 153 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:50,919 Speaker 2: facts actually say otherwise. I mean that's been from the 154 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,359 Speaker 2: oil and gas industry for the reality here as we 155 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 2: haven't had a significant oil and gas bye in New 156 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 2: Zealand it's two thousands and what the Oil and Guests 157 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 2: Band has only been in place for the last years, 158 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 2: so if there was a ready supply of oil and 159 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:04,720 Speaker 2: gas there, they would have found it by now. 160 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: Well, we don't know that, do we. I mean, I 161 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: mean you don't know what you don't know, and the 162 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: fact is if you ban it, you'll never know. 163 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 2: Well, there's still a lot of offshore oil and gas 164 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: exploration permits that are active now. They could be out 165 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 2: there exploring now, even because we didn't cancel any of 166 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 2: the permits that were in place when the band was 167 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 2: put in place. They chose not to do that. 168 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:27,920 Speaker 1: So you're saying that when method X, when these companies 169 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: put out press releases and they've sent me statements partly 170 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: blaming your ban on offshore oil and gas exploration for 171 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: a dampening and investment, they're making it up. 172 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 2: It's it's always easier to blame that. It's always easier 173 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 2: to blame the government when companies have to make some 174 00:07:43,560 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: difficult decisions. But the reality is New Zealand's future should 175 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 2: be focused on renewable energy. It's cheaper, it's going to 176 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 2: be better for New Zealand business because of New Zealand 177 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 2: businesses paying lower power prices. They're going to be more competitive. 178 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 2: Fossil fuels are more expensive than renewable fuels. The thing 179 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 2: that houses our electricity prices to go up is not 180 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 2: the cost of renewable and it it's the cost of 181 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 2: fossil fuels. 182 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: Just finally, you might have seen I mean, I'm sure 183 00:08:09,120 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: you've been keeping abreast of politics here, but Chris Luxon 184 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: has had a oh he's had a few I don't 185 00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: want to say tanties, but he's had a few run 186 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: ins with the media. What do you make of his 187 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: performance this week? 188 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 2: Oh? You know, I mean, I think Christopher Luxelm said 189 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 2: that he's setting all these targets so that the public 190 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: can hold him accountable for the government's performance. And now 191 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 2: that the targets are actually showing that the government's performance 192 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 2: is getting worse, he say, we'll forget about the targets. 193 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 2: Stop questioning me on them. I mean, he's contradicting himself. 194 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 2: I mean, if he wants to set targets and say 195 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 2: hold me accountable for the targets, he's got to be 196 00:08:42,040 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 2: prepared to be questioned on them. 197 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,719 Speaker 1: How long did you get in a meeting with Starma? 198 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 2: It was a relatively brief meeting. We were meeting for 199 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 2: you know, it was a meeting between meetings for both 200 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,199 Speaker 2: of us, so we've got to about ten minutes. I 201 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 2: suppose had a good sit down with Angela rain As, 202 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 2: the Deputy Prime Minister over here for about half an hour, 203 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 2: and I've meeting with plenty of other laboring peas as well. 204 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 1: That was Chris Hopkins, the Labor leader over in Liverpool 205 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,960 Speaker 1: for the UK Party conference. There. For more from News 206 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: Talk st B, listen live on air or online, and 207 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: keep our shows with you wherever you go with our 208 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:17,439 Speaker 1: podcasts on iHeartRadio