1 00:00:07,133 --> 00:00:10,453 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack Team podcast 2 00:00:10,573 --> 00:00:11,693 Speaker 1: from News Talks at Me. 3 00:00:12,853 --> 00:00:16,333 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Knox is one of New Zealand's most celebrated authors. 4 00:00:16,373 --> 00:00:18,613 Speaker 2: She's known, of course for the likes of Vintner's Luck 5 00:00:18,773 --> 00:00:22,333 Speaker 2: and The Absolute Book, but she also writes essay collections 6 00:00:22,333 --> 00:00:25,453 Speaker 2: and young adult stories. But would you get this? It 7 00:00:25,533 --> 00:00:28,933 Speaker 2: has been twelve years since Elizabeth last wrote a book 8 00:00:28,973 --> 00:00:31,973 Speaker 2: for young people. That was, at least until this week, 9 00:00:31,973 --> 00:00:35,493 Speaker 2: when her brand new novel Kings of This World was released. 10 00:00:35,853 --> 00:00:38,133 Speaker 2: Kings of This World tells the story of a young 11 00:00:38,173 --> 00:00:42,173 Speaker 2: protagonist who's the sole survivor of a cult massacre, and 12 00:00:42,253 --> 00:00:45,893 Speaker 2: Elizabeth is with us this morning. Cald A, Good morning, Ciara, 13 00:00:46,493 --> 00:00:49,133 Speaker 2: it is great to be speaking with you. Congratulations on 14 00:00:49,413 --> 00:00:51,813 Speaker 2: Kings of This World. This is your first novel for 15 00:00:51,933 --> 00:00:55,253 Speaker 2: young adults and I think like eleven or twelve years 16 00:00:55,253 --> 00:00:57,213 Speaker 2: So what made you return to that audience. 17 00:00:58,213 --> 00:01:02,093 Speaker 3: Well, I was returning, but over a very long horizon 18 00:01:02,213 --> 00:01:04,413 Speaker 3: because it took me a long time to write this book, 19 00:01:04,653 --> 00:01:07,013 Speaker 3: because I had the bad habit of writing several books 20 00:01:07,053 --> 00:01:07,773 Speaker 3: at the same time. 21 00:01:09,053 --> 00:01:12,093 Speaker 2: Is that what they recommend Elizabeth, several books at one 22 00:01:12,573 --> 00:01:13,293 Speaker 2: at the same time. 23 00:01:15,093 --> 00:01:17,653 Speaker 3: I developed the strategy when I had a lot of 24 00:01:17,733 --> 00:01:21,173 Speaker 3: distractions in my life and I decided to distract myself 25 00:01:21,213 --> 00:01:23,493 Speaker 3: so I had some power over that, and then I 26 00:01:23,533 --> 00:01:26,053 Speaker 3: came out of it and thought I'd solve the problem 27 00:01:26,093 --> 00:01:28,933 Speaker 3: and I could always keep doing that. But no bad habit. 28 00:01:29,173 --> 00:01:32,173 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So that means that it took a wee 29 00:01:32,173 --> 00:01:34,053 Speaker 2: while or slightly longer than it might have if you 30 00:01:34,093 --> 00:01:35,653 Speaker 2: were just focusing on Kings of. 31 00:01:35,813 --> 00:01:37,093 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, not slightly. 32 00:01:37,733 --> 00:01:41,733 Speaker 2: Yes. Well, I'm sure that young readers will be absolutely 33 00:01:41,813 --> 00:01:44,613 Speaker 2: delighted that you've reached this point. Can you tell us 34 00:01:44,613 --> 00:01:46,013 Speaker 2: a little bit about Kings of This World? 35 00:01:46,773 --> 00:01:51,813 Speaker 3: Kings of this World is the protagonist is Vex Magdalene, 36 00:01:51,933 --> 00:01:55,573 Speaker 3: and she, at eight years old, was the sole survivor 37 00:01:55,813 --> 00:02:00,413 Speaker 3: of a cult massacre, and she has been raised in 38 00:02:00,413 --> 00:02:07,893 Speaker 3: institutions by experts and then by Foster family, and it's 39 00:02:07,933 --> 00:02:10,053 Speaker 3: only in her last year of high school that she's 40 00:02:10,133 --> 00:02:13,373 Speaker 3: let out. Now, the thing about the massacre is that 41 00:02:13,453 --> 00:02:18,333 Speaker 3: it's the only massacre of people who are pushed to death. 42 00:02:19,013 --> 00:02:22,333 Speaker 3: And in this country, they had a kind of an 43 00:02:22,533 --> 00:02:25,813 Speaker 3: endemic thing going on where one percent of the population 44 00:02:26,053 --> 00:02:28,253 Speaker 3: is able to tell other people what to do, and 45 00:02:28,253 --> 00:02:32,813 Speaker 3: they'll do it. But of course that's that's a spectrum. 46 00:02:32,893 --> 00:02:36,293 Speaker 3: So some people can when the when the maitre da 47 00:02:36,453 --> 00:02:39,893 Speaker 3: is an attentive, get a good table at a restaurant, 48 00:02:40,413 --> 00:02:43,813 Speaker 3: and other people are able to do crowd control. So 49 00:02:45,133 --> 00:02:48,933 Speaker 3: Vex's father was up at the crowd control end of 50 00:02:48,933 --> 00:02:55,013 Speaker 3: the spectrum, and he also survived the massacre and then disappeared. 51 00:02:56,253 --> 00:02:59,973 Speaker 3: And she gets to go to school in her last 52 00:03:00,053 --> 00:03:02,813 Speaker 3: year and the school that she chooses to go to 53 00:03:03,013 --> 00:03:06,213 Speaker 3: is the preferred school of the percentage the people. 54 00:03:05,893 --> 00:03:09,133 Speaker 2: Who have Yeah, right, So where does your interest in 55 00:03:09,293 --> 00:03:10,413 Speaker 2: cults stem from? 56 00:03:11,173 --> 00:03:14,693 Speaker 3: Oh, this is a hard one who's not interested in cults? 57 00:03:14,893 --> 00:03:23,013 Speaker 3: True watching watching things. Yeah, things evolve on television news 58 00:03:23,013 --> 00:03:27,293 Speaker 3: when I was a child, and also kind of been 59 00:03:27,813 --> 00:03:31,253 Speaker 3: being a child and teenager in the sixties and seventies 60 00:03:31,253 --> 00:03:36,253 Speaker 3: and sort of seeing the alternative lifestyle thing and the 61 00:03:37,293 --> 00:03:41,453 Speaker 3: evangelistic idea that you could take your group of people 62 00:03:41,493 --> 00:03:45,093 Speaker 3: off and make a better world in a small place, 63 00:03:45,773 --> 00:03:50,253 Speaker 3: which was often well intentioned. And I always think of 64 00:03:50,613 --> 00:03:55,773 Speaker 3: the very historic New Zealand ones that were pacifists during 65 00:03:55,813 --> 00:04:00,413 Speaker 3: World War Two. Those there weren't cults per se it 66 00:04:00,973 --> 00:04:06,333 Speaker 3: and communities. So yeah, so just I was always interested. 67 00:04:06,893 --> 00:04:09,453 Speaker 2: I suppose there are always that that there there are 68 00:04:09,453 --> 00:04:13,133 Speaker 2: a really good sort of portal into different components in 69 00:04:13,213 --> 00:04:16,693 Speaker 2: human psychology, aren't they. You know, whether it's the kind 70 00:04:16,693 --> 00:04:20,333 Speaker 2: of the nature of the ways in which you know, 71 00:04:20,453 --> 00:04:23,413 Speaker 2: groups interact or members of a group interact with one another, 72 00:04:23,413 --> 00:04:25,893 Speaker 2: other ways in which people can be led in certain directions, 73 00:04:25,893 --> 00:04:27,853 Speaker 2: like there are all sorts of interesting parts of the 74 00:04:27,933 --> 00:04:31,493 Speaker 2: human psyche that can be unpacked when you when you 75 00:04:31,493 --> 00:04:33,173 Speaker 2: you know, look at it through the frame of a cult. 76 00:04:33,933 --> 00:04:37,053 Speaker 3: Yes, in the sort of ideology. So I was inventing 77 00:04:37,053 --> 00:04:40,493 Speaker 3: an ideology that wasn't just in the end the backstory, 78 00:04:40,493 --> 00:04:44,173 Speaker 3: but still playing out in the world and then impacting 79 00:04:44,213 --> 00:04:48,893 Speaker 3: on Vexa's continued life and the life of her for 80 00:04:49,173 --> 00:04:52,133 Speaker 3: friends who end up kidnapped with her. 81 00:04:52,693 --> 00:04:55,813 Speaker 2: So do you write with young adult readers in mind? 82 00:04:56,053 --> 00:04:59,253 Speaker 2: Or does the book find its own audience as the 83 00:04:59,293 --> 00:05:00,693 Speaker 2: story forms. 84 00:05:01,293 --> 00:05:04,813 Speaker 3: Both at the same time, Like, I have the idea, 85 00:05:04,893 --> 00:05:07,173 Speaker 3: and then I think that would work as a young 86 00:05:07,213 --> 00:05:10,773 Speaker 3: adult book, and I start to write it accordingly, and 87 00:05:10,813 --> 00:05:13,053 Speaker 3: I have a few I have one now, I have 88 00:05:13,133 --> 00:05:16,253 Speaker 3: one central principle for young adult as opposed to adult 89 00:05:16,333 --> 00:05:19,653 Speaker 3: fiction is and that is that you can't deprive the 90 00:05:19,693 --> 00:05:24,133 Speaker 3: readers of hope. So with that in mind, I was 91 00:05:24,173 --> 00:05:27,013 Speaker 3: able to write a you know, a pretty scary thriller. 92 00:05:27,133 --> 00:05:30,333 Speaker 3: And I don't think that young readers need to be 93 00:05:30,493 --> 00:05:36,893 Speaker 3: defended from suspense and and you know, fear and things 94 00:05:36,973 --> 00:05:41,613 Speaker 3: like that obviously, So you know, my kidnapping plays out 95 00:05:41,653 --> 00:05:51,373 Speaker 3: like a kidnapping, except the clever young people managed to 96 00:05:52,213 --> 00:05:56,213 Speaker 3: get out, they managed to survive, and it's it was 97 00:05:57,253 --> 00:05:59,973 Speaker 3: interesting me to try to work it out in a 98 00:06:00,053 --> 00:06:04,933 Speaker 3: practical sense that the people who don't have pee, the 99 00:06:04,973 --> 00:06:10,013 Speaker 3: two people in the room who don't have any or 100 00:06:10,333 --> 00:06:12,373 Speaker 3: you know, no one thinks they have any, well they 101 00:06:12,413 --> 00:06:16,173 Speaker 3: don't and they are just just either very strong or 102 00:06:16,813 --> 00:06:22,533 Speaker 3: very very self possessed and cunning. So yeah, the kind 103 00:06:22,533 --> 00:06:26,493 Speaker 3: of the weakest member of the team, the swatty girl, 104 00:06:27,093 --> 00:06:30,013 Speaker 3: is the one that kind of pulls things off. 105 00:06:30,093 --> 00:06:34,093 Speaker 2: And yeah, well, why is the hope components so important 106 00:06:34,093 --> 00:06:35,533 Speaker 2: to you for young readers? 107 00:06:36,733 --> 00:06:41,213 Speaker 3: Well, I mean I just think that that that kind 108 00:06:41,213 --> 00:06:44,613 Speaker 3: of moment where you go from being a child who 109 00:06:44,853 --> 00:06:47,773 Speaker 3: feels no sense that they're ever going to be made 110 00:06:47,853 --> 00:06:51,573 Speaker 3: responsible for the way the world's organized, and then through 111 00:06:51,613 --> 00:06:55,493 Speaker 3: the years where you suddenly realize that you have an inheritance, 112 00:06:55,573 --> 00:06:59,613 Speaker 3: and it isn't you know, isn't necessarily the beautiful house. 113 00:06:59,653 --> 00:07:03,013 Speaker 3: It's the falling down house. And I think they've got 114 00:07:03,053 --> 00:07:05,733 Speaker 3: a lot on their plates during those years, and so 115 00:07:06,093 --> 00:07:10,693 Speaker 3: if you going to expose them to art, you, I mean, 116 00:07:10,693 --> 00:07:16,893 Speaker 3: it's just kind and encouraging to show them that you know, 117 00:07:17,013 --> 00:07:23,333 Speaker 3: you can have agency and yeah, take response, take responsibility, 118 00:07:23,373 --> 00:07:26,173 Speaker 3: and and make your own decisions and not be punished 119 00:07:26,213 --> 00:07:26,493 Speaker 3: for that. 120 00:07:26,973 --> 00:07:30,253 Speaker 2: Yeah. So that's interesting, right, because you're you're hoping that 121 00:07:30,333 --> 00:07:33,093 Speaker 2: readers will get something out of it. I suppose you're 122 00:07:33,133 --> 00:07:35,213 Speaker 2: hoping that they'll get a message out of it as 123 00:07:35,253 --> 00:07:40,173 Speaker 2: well as simply being entertained or being consumed by a story. 124 00:07:40,333 --> 00:07:42,973 Speaker 2: You're really hoping that young readers in particular, and in 125 00:07:43,013 --> 00:07:45,133 Speaker 2: a way that maybe you don't feel the same compulsion 126 00:07:45,173 --> 00:07:46,813 Speaker 2: with older readers. Is that is that fair? 127 00:07:47,493 --> 00:07:50,773 Speaker 3: Well? I think that whatever the view of the world 128 00:07:50,893 --> 00:07:55,333 Speaker 3: is in a novel always rises out of the author's 129 00:07:55,373 --> 00:08:00,053 Speaker 3: feelings for living in the world, and so it's not 130 00:08:00,173 --> 00:08:06,933 Speaker 3: so much a message as just just kind of the 131 00:08:07,133 --> 00:08:10,173 Speaker 3: color of people's thinking a little bit, so that they're 132 00:08:10,213 --> 00:08:13,813 Speaker 3: able to kind of see things in or feel things 133 00:08:13,893 --> 00:08:20,613 Speaker 3: a bit differently, and with this one, I was interested 134 00:08:20,693 --> 00:08:25,453 Speaker 3: in the fact that the young people ended up not 135 00:08:25,493 --> 00:08:29,413 Speaker 3: trusting any of their elders around them or thinking they 136 00:08:29,413 --> 00:08:32,293 Speaker 3: were functionally useless one way or another, because they were 137 00:08:32,293 --> 00:08:37,293 Speaker 3: so sidelined after the kidnapping, after the investigation, and so 138 00:08:37,373 --> 00:08:40,093 Speaker 3: they make a series of decisions, good and bad, to 139 00:08:40,253 --> 00:08:43,333 Speaker 3: try and work out what's happened and do something about it. 140 00:08:44,253 --> 00:08:50,053 Speaker 3: And yeah, they and it's good for them that they 141 00:08:50,093 --> 00:08:54,733 Speaker 3: do that. They come out bigger and stronger and closer 142 00:08:54,733 --> 00:08:55,853 Speaker 3: together to each other. 143 00:08:57,213 --> 00:09:00,493 Speaker 2: Yeah right, I mean that actually, that makes total sense really, 144 00:09:01,093 --> 00:09:03,813 Speaker 2: And so you've just been on a writer's retreat, right, Elizabeth? 145 00:09:03,813 --> 00:09:04,653 Speaker 2: How was that? Oh? 146 00:09:04,733 --> 00:09:11,013 Speaker 3: Yes, it's the gig. So twice a year I take 147 00:09:11,053 --> 00:09:16,093 Speaker 3: workshops at a writer's retreat, and the workshop component is 148 00:09:16,453 --> 00:09:22,813 Speaker 3: kind of playing a murder mystery and it's always hilarious. 149 00:09:22,973 --> 00:09:25,373 Speaker 3: You know. The people who come into it who haven't 150 00:09:25,373 --> 00:09:28,373 Speaker 3: done it before are slightly dubious. But I have a 151 00:09:28,373 --> 00:09:32,253 Speaker 3: lot of repeat people coming back, so that's my kind 152 00:09:32,253 --> 00:09:36,253 Speaker 3: of like skeleton of people with faith in the process. 153 00:09:36,293 --> 00:09:39,773 Speaker 3: So that happens, and then I also have kind of 154 00:09:40,093 --> 00:09:44,653 Speaker 3: time alone with each attendee to talk about the project 155 00:09:44,653 --> 00:09:48,413 Speaker 3: that they're working on. And I love that partly because 156 00:09:48,773 --> 00:09:52,893 Speaker 3: I come away feeling incredibly useful, and boy, I think 157 00:09:52,933 --> 00:09:56,973 Speaker 3: feeling useful is about the best you can feel. And 158 00:09:58,373 --> 00:10:04,013 Speaker 3: also because there's always these fantastic cooks cook every meal. 159 00:10:04,493 --> 00:10:08,013 Speaker 3: So yeah, there was one fabulous cook and now there's 160 00:10:08,053 --> 00:10:13,293 Speaker 3: another fabulous cook and it's vegan and gluten free, and 161 00:10:13,453 --> 00:10:19,013 Speaker 3: it's just this incredibly tasty, really good for you food 162 00:10:19,093 --> 00:10:22,493 Speaker 3: that turns up at breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And when 163 00:10:22,533 --> 00:10:24,493 Speaker 3: do you get that out of the day. 164 00:10:24,693 --> 00:10:28,373 Speaker 2: You've sort of been nourished in every sense, both literally 165 00:10:28,493 --> 00:10:31,093 Speaker 2: and a nutritional sense, but also in an intellectual sense 166 00:10:31,093 --> 00:10:31,453 Speaker 2: as well. 167 00:10:31,573 --> 00:10:35,333 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, completely nourishing experience. So yeah, that's yeah. And 168 00:10:35,453 --> 00:10:40,813 Speaker 3: that's that's run by Kerrie Sunderland and Nelson right around 169 00:10:40,853 --> 00:10:43,493 Speaker 3: New Zealand is her little business. 170 00:10:43,533 --> 00:10:45,533 Speaker 2: Oh how amazing. How does the murder mystery work? 171 00:10:46,533 --> 00:10:50,133 Speaker 3: The murder mystery? Oh yeah, the murder mystery. I change 172 00:10:50,173 --> 00:10:52,173 Speaker 3: it up every year. So it used to be a 173 00:10:52,293 --> 00:10:55,293 Speaker 3: murder in a little New Zealand cold suburban could des 174 00:10:55,373 --> 00:10:58,373 Speaker 3: arc and then it became a murder in a eighteen 175 00:10:59,213 --> 00:11:04,093 Speaker 3: thirty's English country house. And I've just done a boys' 176 00:11:04,213 --> 00:11:09,853 Speaker 3: school in nineteen sixty three, and all sorts of things happen, 177 00:11:09,893 --> 00:11:13,773 Speaker 3: but there are patterns, and you know that's they're hilarious 178 00:11:13,813 --> 00:11:18,733 Speaker 3: and slightly disgraceful. And that year after year the murder 179 00:11:18,813 --> 00:11:21,733 Speaker 3: victim always turns out to have been sleeping with everyone. 180 00:11:25,013 --> 00:11:28,733 Speaker 3: There's a lot of hilarity. Yes, it does work. 181 00:11:28,813 --> 00:11:31,773 Speaker 2: It does sound like fun. Yeah, it sounds amazing. Hey, 182 00:11:31,853 --> 00:11:34,733 Speaker 2: thank you so much. Congratulations and we are so pleased 183 00:11:34,733 --> 00:11:40,013 Speaker 2: that despite a bumpy ride, but despite a slightly elongated process, 184 00:11:40,093 --> 00:11:43,853 Speaker 2: that things of things have ultimately worked out. Congratulations on 185 00:11:43,933 --> 00:11:44,733 Speaker 2: Kings of this World. 186 00:11:45,333 --> 00:11:45,693 Speaker 3: Thank you. 187 00:11:46,453 --> 00:11:48,773 Speaker 2: That is Elizabeth Knox. All the dehouse for Kings of 188 00:11:48,813 --> 00:11:51,013 Speaker 2: this World are up on the News Talks website 189 00:11:51,573 --> 00:11:54,653 Speaker 1: For more from Saturday Morning with Jack Tame, Listen live 190 00:11:54,733 --> 00:11:57,573 Speaker 1: to News Talks He'd be from nine am Saturday, or 191 00:11:57,653 --> 00:11:59,533 Speaker 1: follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.