1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: Right now. Nikola White's Sponance Minister. Good evening, Good evening. 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: How was your break? You've had some time off? I understand, well, 3 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: not really. 4 00:00:08,720 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 2: I had thirty six hours of the school holidays to 5 00:00:11,160 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 2: take the kids on some nature walks and the like. 6 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 2: But I've kept on working through the school holidays this time. 7 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: And why is that cost of living still out of control? 8 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 2: Such a busy agenda? Ryan and I love my work 9 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 2: so much, so it's been a joy to keep progressing 10 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 2: it while others have been taking some. 11 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: Leat fair How do you rate your progress on cost 12 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: of living? What would you give yourself out of ten 13 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: right now? 14 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 2: I would say that we have made good progress compared 15 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 2: to where New Zealand was at I e. We had 16 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 2: double digit food price inflation under labor and we've now 17 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 2: got it well down into the single figures. But there 18 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 2: is still more work to do. And that's what I 19 00:00:56,800 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 2: get up every day and think about, which is how 20 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 2: do we grow this economy, address the cost of living, 21 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 2: make it easier for keywis to get ahead. And some 22 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 2: of those issues take time to work on, you know, 23 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 2: the supermarket challenges built up over a series of decades, 24 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 2: the electricity market was trashed by a series of decisions 25 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 2: by the last government councils and their rating ways have 26 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 2: been creeping up on us for some time. So these 27 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 2: are not issues that I think New Zealanders think we 28 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 2: will resolve overnight. What they need to see is progress 29 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 2: and we are making it. 30 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 1: Are you has the price of groceries come down? 31 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 2: The amount of food price inflation has reduced under our 32 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 2: government from what it was under the last But I 33 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 2: remain concerns, as you're aware, with a lack of competition 34 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 2: in the supermarket sector, and I am working on reforms 35 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 2: to address that. 36 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: How's that going? Have you had the report back yet? 37 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 2: Look, it's going well. We received multiple responses to our 38 00:01:57,120 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 2: request for information from those who might seek to to 39 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 2: compete in the supermarket sector about what's holding them back, 40 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,800 Speaker 2: both in terms of the way that the current monopolists 41 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 2: conduct themselves, the barriers to setting up new supermarkets and 42 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 2: the structural issues. And I will shortly be making recommendations 43 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 2: to Cabinet about next steps and will be announcing those 44 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 2: this quarter. 45 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: Is there any need to bust up the supermarkets? Is 46 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: that something that you're seriously still considering or based on 47 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: the information you've got so far, will you take it 48 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:33,679 Speaker 1: down and notch. 49 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 2: Well, I've always started from the position which says, ultimately, 50 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 2: for this to be a more competitive market, you need 51 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 2: another national scale competitor. That's what all of the economic 52 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 2: evidence internationally tells us that for so long as you 53 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 2: have a duopoly, effectively, you're not going to get the 54 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 2: downward pressure on prices and the increased choice that consumers 55 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:55,920 Speaker 2: want to see. So the question is how do you 56 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 2: get that third player. I've always been cards on the table. 57 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 2: My first preference be to do pretty much anything we 58 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 2: can to usher in a third player to ease the way. 59 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 2: But if that doesn't occur, then we need a backup plan. 60 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 2: And of course, if you went back in time, we 61 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 2: did have more than two players in each island, and 62 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 2: that was prior to the mergers of the existing brands 63 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 2: that occurred, and so there is a worthwhile exercise of saying, well, 64 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 2: what happens if we split them up again? But I've 65 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 2: always been clear, first preference, let's get a third player, 66 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 2: a new player into the market. 67 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 1: So, because this is sounding very different, I mean, if 68 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: we look at the headlines, Nikola Willis threatens bust up, 69 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: what you're actually saying is we're going to try something first. 70 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 1: If that doesn't work, we will have the specter of 71 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: a bust up hanging in the background, waiting to fall 72 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: on your necks. 73 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 2: Well, I'm doing the work on what a bust up 74 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 2: would look like because I think it's important that we 75 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 2: do that work. I'm also ensuring that where we have 76 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 2: existing laws, that we are enforcing them and are ensuring 77 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: that we've got enough teeth in the enforcement of them. 78 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:08,560 Speaker 2: And then this next piece around what would it take 79 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: to usher in a third player actually goes to some 80 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: of these competition issues, because one of the things that 81 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 2: people who would potentially compete in New Zealand say to 82 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 2: us is that one of their concerns is about the 83 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 2: market power of the existing entities and what they might 84 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 2: do to them to stamp on that competition were it 85 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 2: to occur. So all of these issues need to be 86 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 2: considered together. My work on this has yielded some good 87 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,919 Speaker 2: progress that I'm looking forward to sharing with New Zealanders 88 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 2: once Cabinet has considered it fully, and that will be 89 00:04:44,400 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 2: happening very soon. 90 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: You're not using the confusion of your intention as a 91 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,480 Speaker 1: pr tool to sound tough on supermarkets. 92 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,599 Speaker 2: No, it's really clear for me. New Zealand consumers aren't 93 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 2: getting a good deal because there isn't enough competition in 94 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: our grocery sector. And I want to use all of 95 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 2: the policy and legislative leaders available to the government to 96 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,719 Speaker 2: encourage that basic thing, which is competition. And if you 97 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 2: write from the beginning say hey, look, we're going to 98 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 2: do a bunch of stuff, but I'm not prepared to 99 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 2: ever break them up, then what you're actually saying is 100 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,359 Speaker 2: I'm not prepared to do everything it would take to 101 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 2: ensure competition, because actually my focus is on the New 102 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,240 Speaker 2: Zealand shopper, who right now, in most parts of the 103 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 2: country has the choice between food stuffs and wire worse 104 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 2: in any other country in the world that have a 105 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 2: lot more choice than that. And what we have seen 106 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 2: again and again is that because there aren't those choices, 107 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 2: it appears that those big players misuse their market power. 108 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 2: New Zealanders pay more for their groceries, get fewer choices, 109 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,039 Speaker 2: and it's harder to get the kind of innovation that 110 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 2: you see off shore. So I want to see more competition. 111 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 2: That's my starting place, and I'm considering all the ways 112 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 2: that you can get there. 113 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: Okay, When will we have an answer? 114 00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 2: Well, I will be providing an update in the next 115 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 2: couple of months. 116 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: Okay, and then we'll find out where you're going to 117 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: bust up the supermarkets Within a couple of months. 118 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 2: Well, you'll find out what our next steps are. 119 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: Run Why you why is this so hard? Why can't 120 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 1: you just say what you're going to do and when 121 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: you're going to do it. 122 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 2: This is a problem that is literally decades in the making, 123 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 2: and whatever solution I put forward, I am testing very 124 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,919 Speaker 2: carefully to ensure it will actually result in a better 125 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 2: deal to you, the shopper and other shoppers around the country. 126 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 2: And it's certainly an issue where you need more hastily speed, 127 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: which is to say that you need to carefully think 128 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 2: through your proposition. Let's remember the last government introduced massive 129 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 2: we know what they did, the Grocery Act, and did 130 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 2: it result in an improvement in competition or prices? No? 131 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 2: Jury is being prettle. So do I want to fall 132 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 2: for the same trap? No, No, I don't want to 133 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 2: fall for traps. I'm giving it a bit more due diligence, 134 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 2: a bit more depth of word. 135 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: And while your Minister of finance, Grocery prices will come 136 00:06:58,160 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: down as a result. 137 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 2: I want to see an increase in competition, okay, and 138 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 2: so that will in itself create downward pressure on prices. 139 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 2: And look, here's the thing. I'm having good commercial conversations 140 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 2: behind the scenes about what might be achievable here. I 141 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 2: could put all of that at risk by racing at 142 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 2: one solution. I've been very careful to say, let's go 143 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 2: through all of the options, way them up, come up 144 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 2: with the best option. 145 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: Hey, with tariff's lux of the Prime ministration so told 146 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: me a couple of weeks ago, he's sort of okay 147 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: with the ten percent. I mean it's not ideal. But 148 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: if Trump is talking about fifteen or twenty percent, do 149 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: we start paying more attention. 150 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:43,920 Speaker 2: Well, obviously we're aware of those media reports, but we've 151 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 2: had no direct communication from the US suggesting any change 152 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 2: to New Zealand's current tariff status, which is the ten 153 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 2: percent baseline tariff. Remember the context here is that our 154 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 2: trade is very well balanced with the US. The US 155 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 2: enjoys very strong access to our market, virtually tariff free 156 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 2: across all areas. The Minister of Trade has had a 157 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:10,240 Speaker 2: constructive engagement with the US Trade Representative Greer, and that 158 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: relationship has been affirmed as a strong one, and so 159 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 2: there's no reason for us to be of the view 160 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 2: that we're at risk here. Okay, beyond what's already been stated, you. 161 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: The CTU, the lobby groups being excluded from the budget. 162 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: At the time, you claimed it was Treasury's decision, when 163 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: it's now clear from OAA documents that on April second, 164 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: the Treasury Communications Advisor informed this colleagues that willis preferred. 165 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,719 Speaker 1: That's the Finance Minister taking the exact same approach as 166 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: was used at HAYFU. Why did you say one thing 167 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: when clearly another was going on behind the scenes. 168 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 2: This is such a mountain out of a molehill. Basically, 169 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 2: last year we said, look, let's be a bit more 170 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 2: selective about who comes to the lock up. Treasury set 171 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 2: wrote up some guidelines on that. I said, well, let's 172 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 2: just stick to the same approach for the budget. Then 173 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 2: there was a heack a lot of noise about it, 174 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 2: and eventually I intervened and said, oh, well, let's just 175 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: let them all come. I don't think it's a surprise 176 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 2: to anyone listening to your show right now that I 177 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 2: have a different view on how the economy should be 178 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 2: run than Grant Robertson's former advisor Craig Rennie. He came 179 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 2: to the lock up, he got to listen, he got 180 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 2: to say his piece, and no one is the worse 181 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 2: for it. But if you were listening to him, that's 182 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,679 Speaker 2: on you even not to know what he's doing here. 183 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 1: But did you not want him there? 184 00:09:28,440 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 2: Well, my original position late last year was that restricting 185 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 2: the lock up to those who actually required timely information 186 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 2: to communicate market sensitive information seemed a sensible restriction to make, 187 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 2: and initially we stuck to those guns. But it became 188 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 2: clear over time that the amount of discontent, not only 189 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,959 Speaker 2: from the CTU but from the Taxpayers Union and others, 190 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 2: actually outweighed any benefits from restricting the lockup. So eventually, look, 191 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 2: the outcomes clear, right, Agre I wanted to come back 192 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 2: to come. 193 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: I know, but it's not about that. It's about your credibility, 194 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: isn't it. Because you came out and you rest you 195 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: saved the day. He said, Oh no, I've saved the day. 196 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: Everyone's allowed to come now when it was you trying 197 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: to stop them coming in the first place. 198 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 2: Well, a decision had been made previously that would restrict 199 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 2: by you when and then I came in and saved 200 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 2: the day. So you've you've summarized for yourself. 201 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: Fair enough some honesty. Can I get that kind of 202 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: honesty on the supermarkets? 203 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 2: You know what? The question is this is any New 204 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 2: Zealander better off because of the attendance at the lock up? 205 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 2: And I put to you there are bigger issues for 206 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:44,839 Speaker 2: the country and ultimately my decision was I don't want 207 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 2: this to be a distraction from a budget which is 208 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 2: actually about New Zealanders, their cost of living, how we 209 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 2: create jobs and grow the economy. And the fact that 210 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 2: other people are more focused on whether or not they 211 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 2: get to wear a special badge at the lockup is 212 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:57,319 Speaker 2: on them, not on me. 213 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 1: Finance Minister Nichola Willis, it's great to have me back. 214 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive listen live to 215 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 1: News Talk SETB from four pm weekdays, or follow the 216 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: podcast on iHeartRadio.