WEBVTT - AI is changing search, will your business be ready? 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:05.120 Well, after twenty five years of just googling stuff online 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:07.720 searches in the midst of a radical change. 0:00:08.000 --> 0:00:11.640 Yeah, we're seeing the rise of conversational search and AI 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:15.800 generated search summaries, which have big implications for the seventy 0:00:15.800 --> 0:00:20.119 billion dollar search engine optimization industry and the ability of 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:23.200 KIWI companies to find a global audience online. 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:25.239 This week on the Business of Tech, powered by two 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:28.600 Degrees Business, what businesses need to know about how search 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:32.040 is changing and how will measure audience engagement in the 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:35.040 world where clicks and impressions may mean a lot less 0:00:35.080 --> 0:00:35.839 than they used to. 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:39.440 Our guest this week is Ryan McMillan from Atlas Digital, 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:43.800 a company that specializes in paid search and social media 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:47.839 marketing and advertising. The perfect guy to explain and make 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:50.640 sense off all of these changes that are coming to 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:53.640 search and what it means for the average QWI company 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:55.440 trying to make it on the global stage. 0:00:55.600 --> 0:00:58.120 What I think we're going to see is probably less 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:01.400 use of a traditional search engine as people start to 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:04.520 find answers in different ways. Every year we hear something 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:06.600 that SEO is dead. Is SEO dead? 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:08.920 I'm not sure about. SEO is certainly a worth. 0:01:08.800 --> 0:01:11.600 Changing stay tuned to find out everything you need to 0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:14.120 know about the changing world of search engines. 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:17.480 First, though, if you hadn't noticed, we're about three months 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:21.080 away from the US presidential election and the miss and 0:01:21.280 --> 0:01:25.399 disinformation is running thick and fast on social platforms like 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:26.560 x and Facebook. 0:01:26.800 --> 0:01:30.200 It really moved up a gear following the assassination attempt 0:01:30.240 --> 0:01:34.640 on former President Trump in Butler, Pennsylvania on July thirteenth. 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:38.800 Elin Musk's endorsement of Trump seemed to trigger a flood 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:43.840 of conservative slash Republican propaganda across his own platform and 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:47.200 counter offensives from liberal learning social media users. 0:01:47.360 --> 0:01:50.600 Add in the escalating conflict in the Middle East, riots 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:54.160 in the UK, sweeping political change there, and the social 0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:57.080 media scene seems like even more of a saspit than 0:01:57.120 --> 0:01:57.840 it usually is. 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:00.800 So what's going on and what can we expect? Is 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:03.920 we approached that pivotal election when it comes to the 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:06.000 peddling of miss and disinformation. 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:09.880 I caught up with aut Associate professor in Communication Studies 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:13.400 and former BBC reporter doctor Helen Sissons to get some 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:19.400 perspective on what's going on. Hi, Helen, thank you for 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:21.520 joining us on the Business of Tech podcast. 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:23.200 It's a pleasure you've. 0:02:23.120 --> 0:02:27.280 Joined us today to talk a little bit about misinformation 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:32.160 and how these new media technologies are playing a role 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:36.880 in the issue of disinformation and misinformation. And we saw 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:41.160 an explosion of that very recently with the attempted assassination 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:43.200 of Donald Trump. 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:45.360 Well, first of all, Ben, you're absl right. What we 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:50.440 saw post the assassination attempt was quite alarming, and it 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:53.320 has been obviously the subject of discussion, and we saw 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:56.120 some quite senior people obviously piling in really with some 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:59.840 really with some very concerning and not fact checked, no 0:03:00.040 --> 0:03:02.840 evidence to support what they were saying, accusing various people 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:05.160 that came from both sides. We had, you know, obviously 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:08.680 the usual Deep State is involved in that actually was 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:12.560 a Donald Trump construction, and so you know, the idea 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:14.720 that the deep state is after him and has been 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:18.080 and he's the victim has become a sort of mantra 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:21.480 almost and we saw that within almost minutes of the 0:03:21.919 --> 0:03:26.240 of the attempt. We also saw quite senior people pointing 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:28.679 the finger at Joe Biden, which of course is incendiary 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:31.520 and quite and very concerning. And then we saw on 0:03:31.560 --> 0:03:33.920 the other side, oh, this has been a you know, 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:37.280 Trump's own supporters. They're doing this to get the sympathy 0:03:37.400 --> 0:03:41.080 of people, and that again is very concerning because you know, 0:03:41.120 --> 0:03:44.520 we see them both sides sort of piling in and 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:46.960 we're in. It's very concerning for the people. If we've 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:49.440 taken it from the people who were on social media, 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:52.560 who are not politicians, who are not activists, it begins 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:55.840 to break down their trust. It's very It is very 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:59.320 It stokes fear, It stokes concern, and it stokes who 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:02.440 can I trust? Who's everyone out there is behaving in 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:05.440 a way that makes it that makes me feel unsafe. 0:04:05.880 --> 0:04:10.120 So it is really bad for everyone's a sense of 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:13.800 security within our democracies. And it has been coined by 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:16.440 one of the top researchers in this area, Claire Wardle, 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:20.400 who's now Brown University, as information disorder. And now we 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:23.920 always had obviously, rumors and misinformation have always been around, 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:27.599 it's just the level and so the ability of social 0:04:27.600 --> 0:04:30.360 media to disseminate them in a way that hasn't been 0:04:30.400 --> 0:04:34.360 possible before. Misinformation has always been around, it is because 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:38.560 of social media that it's now on steroids. And people believe, 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:41.320 you know, half of New Zealanders believe that they're seeing 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:45.640 misinformation every day. It's not necessarily the truth. But when 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:49.039 half New Zealanders think that they're seeing false information every 0:04:49.080 --> 0:04:52.640 day and ninety percent think they're seeing it monthly, then 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:56.320 we've got a trust issue here with our information ecosystem. 0:04:56.600 --> 0:04:59.680 Let's go to the issue of the moment. We talked 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:03.520 pret Flea about the Trump possessionation attempt and the resulting 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:08.960 frenzy of information following that. How does that kind of 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:12.240 encapsulate where we are today, where we're more likely to 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:15.279 believe whatever kind of comes through the social media channels, 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:19.600 and maybe even less likely to believe the factual reporting 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:21.440 that comes through mainstream media news. 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:26.279 As I said, you've always had this, the misinformation, the peddlers, 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:27.839 and you've always had But then actually they were sitting 0:05:27.839 --> 0:05:30.640 in the pub talking to your two or three people, going, 0:05:30.680 --> 0:05:32.360 you know, I think the moon landings of the fake. 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:38.280 Now you've got the ability for that one particular person, 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:40.400 who perhaps only had an audience of three or four 0:05:40.440 --> 0:05:43.560 in the pub, to have built up an audience on 0:05:43.640 --> 0:05:47.719 social media across the world of many thousands of people. 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:53.320 So what social media allowed is people with perhaps unusual 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:58.320 views extreme in some cases extreme views to find a 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:01.600 to find like minded people to spread conspiracy theories. Now, 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:04.800 the attraction of conspiracy theories is that they make a 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:09.400 complicated world easy to understand. According to research from Victoria 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:12.680 University in twenty nineteen, so even before the pandemic, So 0:06:12.720 --> 0:06:15.800 it's probably more now eight point nine percent of New 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:19.600 Zealanders believe the moon landings were faked. Social media is 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:26.080 allowed what we've been minority opinions to become mainstream, and 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:28.360 that has divided us. So that means that when you 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:33.040 get a critical event, instead of pulling together, there is 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:35.800 an opportunity for division to be stoked. 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:38.920 Is that because you know, there are these minority opinions, 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:45.720 but they somehow hitched themselves to majority beliefs. QAnon for example, 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:51.279 started out as this very fringe belief around deep state 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:55.560 and child abuse rings and then it somehow became hitched 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:59.400 to the majority Republican party in some way. So how 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:02.440 does that happened and how does social media enable these 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:06.080 fringe beliefs to then become hitched two majority believes? 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:09.640 Well, they need to be amplified by people who have 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:14.160 large platforms. Right, Sometimes you know a view can be 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:17.360 seeded on somewhere like four Channel or whatever, circulate there 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:20.000 for a while, and then it can jump to mainstream 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:23.559 social media, you know, Facebook, by somebody who's a member 0:07:23.560 --> 0:07:26.360 of both those kinds of groups, and then it begins 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:28.600 to get shared. So then it's kind of an organic 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:31.600 sort of thing, but often it is actually something that 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:36.120 needs to be amplified. So for example, a fringe British 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:39.960 far right party a few years ago put out a 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:45.280 video three videos asserting that a particular incident that was 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:50.920 actually in Holland between two young boys was an attack 0:07:51.000 --> 0:07:56.520 by a Muslim on a crippled white kids. And this 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:58.840 was on a fringe British site. Not didn't pick up 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:03.320 much until Donald Trump tweeted it, and when he retweeted it, 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:07.160 it's obviously became viral and it was fact checked again 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:09.800 by the wa she'd post, among others who and the 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:12.880 Dutch embassy had to come in and say, neither of 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:16.800 these boys involved in this video are either Muslim or immigrant. 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:19.960 They were both born and bred in the Netherlands. The 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:22.560 threat is real and this is very worrying because it's 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:25.200 divisive and it can lead to people getting hurt. 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:27.880 We saw that with the christ Church attacks right his 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:32.760 manifesto was called the Great Replacement I believe Great theory, Yes, 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:37.640 Great Replacement theory, which is a conspiracy theory that isn't 0:08:37.679 --> 0:08:40.400 backed by science and doesn't have any basis and truth, 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:43.200 but was used as a justification for one of the 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:47.360 most horrific acts of violence in New Zealand's history. So 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:49.880 you know, and that is kind of this meta narrative. 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:52.480 And like you say, if you believe in the truth 0:08:52.520 --> 0:08:56.640 of the big narrative, then it doesn't necessarily matter if 0:08:56.720 --> 0:09:01.080 every single piece of smaller evidence is true or not, 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:06.680 because it feeds into your confirmation bias. Right. Do you 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:11.360 think that Donald Trump intentionally weaponized Twitter in order to 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:16.680 gain power and influence or do you think that he 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:18.880 would have found some other way if it wasn't Twitter. 0:09:20.240 --> 0:09:24.000 I think several things came together to help Donald Trump. 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:27.280 One of them, of course, was the constant undermining of 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:30.280 the mainstream media that went alongside that. The media was 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:33.280 a bit slow, there was some hand ringing what have you, 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:35.559 before they actually came out and said and called Donald 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:38.959 Trump a spreader of misinformation and in fact a liar. Eventually, 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:41.800 the media didn't want to do that. They would rather 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:44.720 have taken each thing and fact checked it seriously and 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:48.640 put it against people were not there for that. And 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:51.000 at the same time, he was going fake news. Every 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:53.640 time there was a he had a rally and he 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:56.360 would point at individual journalism, call your fake new CNN 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:59.960 fake news, trying to undermine trust. So it went along 0:10:00.160 --> 0:10:03.720 side again it was they just trust me, don't trust them. 0:10:04.000 --> 0:10:07.920 He was speaking to these people who felt disenfranchised, felt 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:11.360 that they'd been forgotten, and so social media allowed him 0:10:11.400 --> 0:10:14.640 to reach out to these little disparate groups all over 0:10:14.679 --> 0:10:16.960 the place and bring them together for his base. So 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:19.720 he was talking to them and it helped him a lot. 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:22.880 That the mainstream media didn't quite know how to deal 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:26.400 with this in the beginning, and again amplified many times 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:29.960 his messages which were nonsense, you know, many of them, 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:32.439 but taking it seriously, and it became like his car crash. 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:34.760 I don't know about you, but I was every morning 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:37.360 wake up wonder what Donald Trump had said. I was 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:39.640 as bad as anybody else. And this is a big 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:42.920 mistake that often the liberal elite can make, is not 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:47.360 to take seriously people who behave and act differently. They 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:49.520 don't think who were they talking to? And then look 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:54.040 at that carefully. So social media allowed him to communicate 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:57.520 with a set of people that had been disenfranchised, and 0:10:57.600 --> 0:10:59.960 he's still talking to those people and they're still there. 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:03.880 Are we seeing this in New Zealand? Is it similar 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:07.400 but on a different scale? Has our political structure with 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:12.600 MMP rather than just having a two party system per se? 0:11:12.679 --> 0:11:14.640 It is kind of but not to the same extent 0:11:14.679 --> 0:11:17.360 as the US. Has that inoculated us a little bit 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:21.720 against the extent to which it's happened in the US. 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:23.920 Or are we just as bad? 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:26.800 More people in New Zealand believe the moon landing was 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:29.640 faked than in America, So I think we've got to 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:32.280 be very careful not to believe where this little country 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:33.960 at the end of the world that nobody is going 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:38.000 to target, nobody cares about. It's not true. We're very strategic, 0:11:38.200 --> 0:11:40.880 we are valuable. The fact that we are a liberal 0:11:40.960 --> 0:11:44.320 democracy makes us very attractive as a target for some 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:49.040 misinformation peddlers, and there's been some excellent work done by 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:53.280 Stuff Circuit on the soft power of China. I think 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:56.640 the disinformation campaign at the last election didn't find as 0:11:56.720 --> 0:11:59.839 much misinformation as we thought there might be, but work 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:03.320 that's been done in New Zealand has shown that we 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:06.680 are very concerned about misinformation. New Zealanders are and believe 0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:09.320 we see quite a lot of it, which just that 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:12.840 belief undermines our trust in our information sources. So we 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:15.040 need to work very hard to build trust and the 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:19.040 trust research has done out of aut Media Muliati and 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:23.240 Greg Treadwell has shown that this is not going away, 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:26.360 but we can do things about it. Media, literacy, education, 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:28.199 there is a lot of hope, you know, there is 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:30.040 a lot of hope. People are concerned, they want to 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:33.160 learn and we can help. So yeah, I don't think 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:37.079 we should be all doom and gloom raising awareness and 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:40.640 knowing what has been a human pattern. It's just that 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:43.640 social media has allowed that pattern and a lot of 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:46.520 a lot of extra miles, so to speak. 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:54.479 So being no easy answers from hell and there. It's complex, 0:12:55.240 --> 0:13:00.319 it's societal, it's interwoven with technological change and control of 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:04.120 those platforms. It's only going to get worse, and AI 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:08.040 is just another element that's going to confound things even more. 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:11.040 Yeah, it wasn't the most positive sounding of interviews, but 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:12.720 at the end of the day, I think what we 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:14.920 do need to remember is people do like to speculate 0:13:14.960 --> 0:13:18.760 and get excited about things, but social media can just 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:21.880 take that speculation and excitement and turn it into something 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:26.240 pretty nasty pretty quickly. So media literacy is really key, 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:28.959 and just making sure that we're all you know, if 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:31.600 you hear somebody talking about something, you have that little 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:35.240 voice that goes, just check that one maybe, and reminding 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:37.240 your kids that it's really important to do the same 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:38.360 as well. That's vital. 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:40.880 Yeah, I think it's going to be interesting in the 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:45.360 whole endorsement of Trump by I wouldn't say, you know, 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.960 a widespread contingent of tech leaders in Silicon Valley, but 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:51.199 definitely some of the powerful ones. Peter Thiel, who was 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:54.679 a big backer last time, but most notably Elon Musk 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:59.960 within hours of the assassination attempt endorsing Trump to US 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:03.480 one hundred and ninety two million followers. Incredibly powerful and 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:05.880 that's why Trump is basically said in the last week, 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.480 I sort of need to support electric vehicles because of Elon, 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:12.679 And so he's starting to see this really which we haven't. 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.200 We knew it was happening, but haven't seen it to 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:18.760 this extent. That sort of the tech bro tech elite, 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:23.720 conservative leaning elites anyway intertwined with Trump. They've all got 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:26.480 super packs. They're giving him money. There's got to be 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:30.360 some payoff for that. So, for instance, on crypto, Trump 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:34.120 has gone from saying cryptos a scam to basically saying, oh, yeah, 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:36.160 I think I'm going to I'm going to see assets, 0:14:36.240 --> 0:14:40.400 crypto assets and use it to payoff national debt. So 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:43.320 he's done a one ad on that. But you know, 0:14:43.720 --> 0:14:48.240 is a crypto sector going to see a dream run 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:53.040 of you know, no regulation and government endorsement of their 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:54.800 way of doing things. I doubt it. You know, Trump 0:14:54.840 --> 0:15:00.720 is just so sort of self interested, He's got authoritarian tendencies, 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:02.120 and crypto goes against that. 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:05.960 Yeah, I think you use the term payoff there, So 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:08.120 maybe we'll just let that's it. 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:18.920 So anyway, that's what's going on with social media and 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:21.800 the fight for control of the political narrative, which is 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:25.880 intensifying with the US elections looming. But there's another big 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:28.920 movement underway in the world of online search and the 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:30.520 advertising that goes with it. 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:33.440 The online search engine market was worth around two hundred 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:37.360 billion last year, a market dominated by Google. Even here 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:40.320 in New Zealand. Google's local accounts show it generated the 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:43.920 best part of one billion dollars in sales here, much 0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:47.240 of which will be through businesses paying to feature at 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:49.000 the top of Google search results. 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:52.720 Those paid links are everything for a retailer or a 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:57.800 financial services company trying to attract customers. But AI is 0:15:57.960 --> 0:16:01.920 changing search. It became most evident last year with conversational 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:05.960 Search debuting and Microsoft's being search engine powered by the 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:08.240 same tech underpinning chat GPT. 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:12.000 Then a few months ago, Google debut it's aioverview future, 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:14.640 which will try to answer your search query, not simply 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:17.840 with a bunch of relevant links, but a short blurb 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:19.360 attempting to answer your question. 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:23.640 So featuring in that AI generated blurb will increasingly be 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:27.560 the place to be in search results. That is implications 0:16:28.160 --> 0:16:31.360 for the type of content website owners create to appeal 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:33.280 to Google search algorithms. 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:36.400 At List Digital is a Wellington based paid search and 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:39.840 social media startup that helps other tech startups find an 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:42.000 audience in the noisy world of search. 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:45.680 It's founder, Ryan McMillan, has helped secure some impressive results 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:49.480 for fast growing companies like Chersey's and Jasper. He's been 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:52.080 thinking a lot about the future of the search business 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:55.000 as Google Bing and others embrace AI. 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:58.400 This one is worth listening to for anyone trying to 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:02.720 find an audience online. Here's at list Digital's Ryan McMillan. 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:08.919 Brian, thanks so much for coming on the business of 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:11.240 Tech Now. We met probably a few months ago for 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:12.840 the first time. It was on a red Eye flight 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.400 to Wellington, and I was really taken by the conversation. 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:19.440 We talked about the tech landscape, startups which we're both 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:24.200 passionate about, and search engine optimization and started talking about 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:28.520 this revolution that's happening with generative AI, conversational search, which 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:30.200 is changing the game. So we're going to get into 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:32.840 that and what it means for New Zealand businesses going 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:36.520 global trying to find people online to buy their wares. 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:39.520 But tell us a little bit first about your business 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:40.400 at list Digital. 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:41.400 Yeah. 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:44.240 Sure, So I started at list Digital about five and 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.679 a half years ago, and fundamentally what we do is 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:50.040 we specialize in paid search like Google Ads, paid social 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:53.600 like LinkedIn or Facebook advertising, and then search engine optimization 0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:55.919 as well, which obviously we're here to talk about today. 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.480 So some of our clients seventy five percent of them 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.359 to B SAS companies, with the other twenty five percent 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:04.600 being B two C SAS or B two C tech. 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:06.919 And what we find with almost all of the B 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.160 to B SaaS companies is that they're looking to expand internationally. 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:13.480 So from an SEO perspective, that can already introduce a 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:16.400 number of questions that need to be answered and ideally 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:19.920 thought of fairly early in the piece. For example, your 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:24.320 domain structure is something that's quite important to consider, as 0:18:24.440 --> 0:18:27.720 is the localization of language that you'll be using. Do 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:29.800 you need to talk in different languages? Do you need 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:32.760 to colloquialize the language. These are just a few of 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.840 the things that we set out to answer quite early 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:38.280 on and then work through building a strategy in order 0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:39.920 to make best use of that. 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:42.199 So I think the perception out there is you know 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:45.000 search you know was in the late nineties, there were 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:48.439 early search engines. Google came along with the power of 0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:53.440 its way of ranking pages and its algorithms changed the game, 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:58.320 and then nothing really happened fundamentally for the next twenty 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:01.480 five years. There was a lot of great innovation behind 0:19:01.520 --> 0:19:05.040 the scenes, but search the experience that white screen with 0:19:05.160 --> 0:19:09.760 the search bar didn't really change and people love Google. 0:19:10.359 --> 0:19:13.160 Early twenty twenty three, we saw Being, which had really 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:18.440 been struggling in search, team up with open Ai integrating 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:23.640 GPT into the Being search engine. A lot of interest 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:26.399 in that, and that was really the start of conversational search, 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:30.760 an auto generated summary that tries to answer your question. So, Ryan, 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:33.600 what is actual conversational search? 0:19:33.600 --> 0:19:34.359 How does it work? 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:39.040 The ability of conversational search is, first of all, can 0:19:39.560 --> 0:19:44.000 understand using natural language processing the intent behind what you're 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:46.639 looking for at a much deeper level. It's not about 0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:49.679 going what a related keyword someone might talk about, but 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:52.679 actually really understanding, hey, what does this person want to know? 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:55.920 And then on top of that, it has this sort 0:19:55.920 --> 0:20:00.560 of multifaceted, dynamic approach where you can continue to on 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:05.679 the questions you're asking and almost like it's mimicking actually 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:07.639 talking to a person. You know, I want to buy 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:09.480 Nike shoes, and it shows you a bunch, Well, I 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:11.240 want to see all the red ones. And then now 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:12.680 you've got all the red ones, and you can really 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:14.720 build on that, and you can even loop back later 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:17.360 like remember those those red shoes you showed me? Can 0:20:17.400 --> 0:20:19.840 you show me the first two? Because I want to 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:22.320 see those two and so the reality is that you're 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:27.040 almost starting to get this customer service experience from conversational search. 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:29.520 Like it means that we can go a lot deeper 0:20:29.560 --> 0:20:31.800 with the searches that we're doing, and off the back 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:35.800 of it probably not only answer the questions we've got better, 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:38.280 but also walk away with a lot more than we 0:20:38.320 --> 0:20:41.200 sort of bargained for as well. For example, you could 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:43.639 look at buying Nike shoes, choose the red ones, and 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:45.640 then go, now, I really want to run this half 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:48.159 marathon in about six months, what's a training plan? And 0:20:48.400 --> 0:20:50.879 you can really build that and have that all stitched 0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:53.679 up in a few minutes versus right now, you'd need 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:56.359 to google half marathon training plan and it wouldn't cater 0:20:56.440 --> 0:20:58.720 to you, it wouldn't have your past search experience, it 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:00.920 wouldn't know who you are, and it wouldn't be out 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:04.399 of therefore, adjust that information to cater to yourself. So 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:06.320 it's a really exciting space to be in. 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:09.880 Yeah, it's pretty cool. And what's your take on how 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:14.160 this is changing search engine optimization and your own business? 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:17.640 It is hugely changing the game. And what I think 0:21:17.680 --> 0:21:20.000 we're going to see is probably less use of a 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:23.600 traditional search engine as people start to find answers in 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:26.520 different ways, and by the very nature of that, it 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:30.320 will also change the SEO industry itself. Do I think 0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:33.280 that that will be the end of SEO? Certainly not. 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:35.600 But I think SEO as we know it is going 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:38.760 to change, which I suppose is something quite cliche every 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:41.640 time every year we hear something that SEO is dead. 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:45.080 Is SEO dead? I'm not sure? But SEO is certainly 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:45.840 always changing. 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:48.800 So what does that mean for the types of content? 0:21:49.359 --> 0:21:53.040 Because ultimately your job now is to try and feature 0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:56.639 in that auto generated summary you want. For instance, if 0:21:56.640 --> 0:22:00.680 your campman do a clothing company and some enters tell 0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:04.240 me the best clothing for a trip to root Burn. 0:22:04.440 --> 0:22:06.760 If I'm hiking the root Burn, what gear do I need? 0:22:07.400 --> 0:22:10.480 Katmandu wants to be in that summary at the top 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:12.960 of Google. So what do you need to do now 0:22:13.000 --> 0:22:14.920