Speaker 1: Well, after twenty five years of just googling stuff online
Speaker 1: searches in the midst of a radical change.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're seeing the rise of conversational search and AI
Speaker 2: generated search summaries, which have big implications for the seventy
Speaker 2: billion dollar search engine optimization industry and the ability of
Speaker 2: KIWI companies to find a global audience online.
Speaker 1: This week on the Business of Tech, powered by two
Speaker 1: Degrees Business, what businesses need to know about how search
Speaker 1: is changing and how will measure audience engagement in the
Speaker 1: world where clicks and impressions may mean a lot less
Speaker 1: than they used to.
Speaker 2: Our guest this week is Ryan McMillan from Atlas Digital,
Speaker 2: a company that specializes in paid search and social media
Speaker 2: marketing and advertising. The perfect guy to explain and make
Speaker 2: sense off all of these changes that are coming to
Speaker 2: search and what it means for the average QWI company
Speaker 2: trying to make it on the global stage.
Speaker 3: What I think we're going to see is probably less
Speaker 3: use of a traditional search engine as people start to
Speaker 3: find answers in different ways. Every year we hear something
Speaker 3: that SEO is dead. Is SEO dead?
Speaker 4: I'm not sure about. SEO is certainly a worth.
Speaker 1: Changing stay tuned to find out everything you need to
Speaker 1: know about the changing world of search engines.
Speaker 2: First, though, if you hadn't noticed, we're about three months
Speaker 2: away from the US presidential election and the miss and
Speaker 2: disinformation is running thick and fast on social platforms like
Speaker 2: x and Facebook.
Speaker 1: It really moved up a gear following the assassination attempt
Speaker 1: on former President Trump in Butler, Pennsylvania on July thirteenth.
Speaker 2: Elin Musk's endorsement of Trump seemed to trigger a flood
Speaker 2: of conservative slash Republican propaganda across his own platform and
Speaker 2: counter offensives from liberal learning social media users.
Speaker 1: Add in the escalating conflict in the Middle East, riots
Speaker 1: in the UK, sweeping political change there, and the social
Speaker 1: media scene seems like even more of a saspit than
Speaker 1: it usually is.
Speaker 2: So what's going on and what can we expect? Is
Speaker 2: we approached that pivotal election when it comes to the
Speaker 2: peddling of miss and disinformation.
Speaker 1: I caught up with aut Associate professor in Communication Studies
Speaker 1: and former BBC reporter doctor Helen Sissons to get some
Speaker 1: perspective on what's going on. Hi, Helen, thank you for
Speaker 1: joining us on the Business of Tech podcast.
Speaker 5: It's a pleasure you've.
Speaker 1: Joined us today to talk a little bit about misinformation
Speaker 1: and how these new media technologies are playing a role
Speaker 1: in the issue of disinformation and misinformation. And we saw
Speaker 1: an explosion of that very recently with the attempted assassination
Speaker 1: of Donald Trump.
Speaker 5: Well, first of all, Ben, you're absl right. What we
Speaker 5: saw post the assassination attempt was quite alarming, and it
Speaker 5: has been obviously the subject of discussion, and we saw
Speaker 5: some quite senior people obviously piling in really with some
Speaker 5: really with some very concerning and not fact checked, no
Speaker 5: evidence to support what they were saying, accusing various people
Speaker 5: that came from both sides. We had, you know, obviously
Speaker 5: the usual Deep State is involved in that actually was
Speaker 5: a Donald Trump construction, and so you know, the idea
Speaker 5: that the deep state is after him and has been
Speaker 5: and he's the victim has become a sort of mantra
Speaker 5: almost and we saw that within almost minutes of the
Speaker 5: of the attempt. We also saw quite senior people pointing
Speaker 5: the finger at Joe Biden, which of course is incendiary
Speaker 5: and quite and very concerning. And then we saw on
Speaker 5: the other side, oh, this has been a you know,
Speaker 5: Trump's own supporters. They're doing this to get the sympathy
Speaker 5: of people, and that again is very concerning because you know,
Speaker 5: we see them both sides sort of piling in and
Speaker 5: we're in. It's very concerning for the people. If we've
Speaker 5: taken it from the people who were on social media,
Speaker 5: who are not politicians, who are not activists, it begins
Speaker 5: to break down their trust. It's very It is very
Speaker 5: It stokes fear, It stokes concern, and it stokes who
Speaker 5: can I trust? Who's everyone out there is behaving in
Speaker 5: a way that makes it that makes me feel unsafe.
Speaker 5: So it is really bad for everyone's a sense of
Speaker 5: security within our democracies. And it has been coined by
Speaker 5: one of the top researchers in this area, Claire Wardle,
Speaker 5: who's now Brown University, as information disorder. And now we
Speaker 5: always had obviously, rumors and misinformation have always been around,
Speaker 5: it's just the level and so the ability of social
Speaker 5: media to disseminate them in a way that hasn't been
Speaker 5: possible before. Misinformation has always been around, it is because
Speaker 5: of social media that it's now on steroids. And people believe,
Speaker 5: you know, half of New Zealanders believe that they're seeing
Speaker 5: misinformation every day. It's not necessarily the truth. But when
Speaker 5: half New Zealanders think that they're seeing false information every
Speaker 5: day and ninety percent think they're seeing it monthly, then
Speaker 5: we've got a trust issue here with our information ecosystem.
Speaker 1: Let's go to the issue of the moment. We talked
Speaker 1: pret Flea about the Trump possessionation attempt and the resulting
Speaker 1: frenzy of information following that. How does that kind of
Speaker 1: encapsulate where we are today, where we're more likely to
Speaker 1: believe whatever kind of comes through the social media channels,
Speaker 1: and maybe even less likely to believe the factual reporting
Speaker 1: that comes through mainstream media news.
Speaker 5: As I said, you've always had this, the misinformation, the peddlers,
Speaker 5: and you've always had But then actually they were sitting
Speaker 5: in the pub talking to your two or three people, going,
Speaker 5: you know, I think the moon landings of the fake.
Speaker 5: Now you've got the ability for that one particular person,
Speaker 5: who perhaps only had an audience of three or four
Speaker 5: in the pub, to have built up an audience on
Speaker 5: social media across the world of many thousands of people.
Speaker 5: So what social media allowed is people with perhaps unusual
Speaker 5: views extreme in some cases extreme views to find a
Speaker 5: to find like minded people to spread conspiracy theories. Now,
Speaker 5: the attraction of conspiracy theories is that they make a
Speaker 5: complicated world easy to understand. According to research from Victoria
Speaker 5: University in twenty nineteen, so even before the pandemic, So
Speaker 5: it's probably more now eight point nine percent of New
Speaker 5: Zealanders believe the moon landings were faked. Social media is
Speaker 5: allowed what we've been minority opinions to become mainstream, and
Speaker 5: that has divided us. So that means that when you
Speaker 5: get a critical event, instead of pulling together, there is
Speaker 5: an opportunity for division to be stoked.
Speaker 1: Is that because you know, there are these minority opinions,
Speaker 1: but they somehow hitched themselves to majority beliefs. QAnon for example,
Speaker 1: started out as this very fringe belief around deep state
Speaker 1: and child abuse rings and then it somehow became hitched
Speaker 1: to the majority Republican party in some way. So how
Speaker 1: does that happened and how does social media enable these
Speaker 1: fringe beliefs to then become hitched two majority believes?
Speaker 5: Well, they need to be amplified by people who have
Speaker 5: large platforms. Right, Sometimes you know a view can be
Speaker 5: seeded on somewhere like four Channel or whatever, circulate there
Speaker 5: for a while, and then it can jump to mainstream
Speaker 5: social media, you know, Facebook, by somebody who's a member
Speaker 5: of both those kinds of groups, and then it begins
Speaker 5: to get shared. So then it's kind of an organic
Speaker 5: sort of thing, but often it is actually something that
Speaker 5: needs to be amplified. So for example, a fringe British
Speaker 5: far right party a few years ago put out a
Speaker 5: video three videos asserting that a particular incident that was
Speaker 5: actually in Holland between two young boys was an attack
Speaker 5: by a Muslim on a crippled white kids. And this
Speaker 5: was on a fringe British site. Not didn't pick up
Speaker 5: much until Donald Trump tweeted it, and when he retweeted it,
Speaker 5: it's obviously became viral and it was fact checked again
Speaker 5: by the wa she'd post, among others who and the
Speaker 5: Dutch embassy had to come in and say, neither of
Speaker 5: these boys involved in this video are either Muslim or immigrant.
Speaker 5: They were both born and bred in the Netherlands. The
Speaker 5: threat is real and this is very worrying because it's
Speaker 5: divisive and it can lead to people getting hurt.
Speaker 1: We saw that with the christ Church attacks right his
Speaker 1: manifesto was called the Great Replacement I believe Great theory, Yes,
Speaker 1: Great Replacement theory, which is a conspiracy theory that isn't
Speaker 1: backed by science and doesn't have any basis and truth,
Speaker 1: but was used as a justification for one of the
Speaker 1: most horrific acts of violence in New Zealand's history. So
Speaker 1: you know, and that is kind of this meta narrative.
Speaker 1: And like you say, if you believe in the truth
Speaker 1: of the big narrative, then it doesn't necessarily matter if
Speaker 1: every single piece of smaller evidence is true or not,
Speaker 1: because it feeds into your confirmation bias. Right. Do you
Speaker 1: think that Donald Trump intentionally weaponized Twitter in order to
Speaker 1: gain power and influence or do you think that he
Speaker 1: would have found some other way if it wasn't Twitter.
Speaker 5: I think several things came together to help Donald Trump.
Speaker 5: One of them, of course, was the constant undermining of
Speaker 5: the mainstream media that went alongside that. The media was
Speaker 5: a bit slow, there was some hand ringing what have you,
Speaker 5: before they actually came out and said and called Donald
Speaker 5: Trump a spreader of misinformation and in fact a liar. Eventually,
Speaker 5: the media didn't want to do that. They would rather
Speaker 5: have taken each thing and fact checked it seriously and
Speaker 5: put it against people were not there for that. And
Speaker 5: at the same time, he was going fake news. Every
Speaker 5: time there was a he had a rally and he
Speaker 5: would point at individual journalism, call your fake new CNN
Speaker 5: fake news, trying to undermine trust. So it went along
Speaker 5: side again it was they just trust me, don't trust them.
Speaker 5: He was speaking to these people who felt disenfranchised, felt
Speaker 5: that they'd been forgotten, and so social media allowed him
Speaker 5: to reach out to these little disparate groups all over
Speaker 5: the place and bring them together for his base. So
Speaker 5: he was talking to them and it helped him a lot.
Speaker 5: That the mainstream media didn't quite know how to deal
Speaker 5: with this in the beginning, and again amplified many times
Speaker 5: his messages which were nonsense, you know, many of them,
Speaker 5: but taking it seriously, and it became like his car crash.
Speaker 5: I don't know about you, but I was every morning
Speaker 5: wake up wonder what Donald Trump had said. I was
Speaker 5: as bad as anybody else. And this is a big
Speaker 5: mistake that often the liberal elite can make, is not
Speaker 5: to take seriously people who behave and act differently. They
Speaker 5: don't think who were they talking to? And then look
Speaker 5: at that carefully. So social media allowed him to communicate
Speaker 5: with a set of people that had been disenfranchised, and
Speaker 5: he's still talking to those people and they're still there.
Speaker 1: Are we seeing this in New Zealand? Is it similar
Speaker 1: but on a different scale? Has our political structure with
Speaker 1: MMP rather than just having a two party system per se?
Speaker 1: It is kind of but not to the same extent
Speaker 1: as the US. Has that inoculated us a little bit
Speaker 1: against the extent to which it's happened in the US.
Speaker 1: Or are we just as bad?
Speaker 5: More people in New Zealand believe the moon landing was
Speaker 5: faked than in America, So I think we've got to
Speaker 5: be very careful not to believe where this little country
Speaker 5: at the end of the world that nobody is going
Speaker 5: to target, nobody cares about. It's not true. We're very strategic,
Speaker 5: we are valuable. The fact that we are a liberal
Speaker 5: democracy makes us very attractive as a target for some
Speaker 5: misinformation peddlers, and there's been some excellent work done by
Speaker 5: Stuff Circuit on the soft power of China. I think
Speaker 5: the disinformation campaign at the last election didn't find as
Speaker 5: much misinformation as we thought there might be, but work
Speaker 5: that's been done in New Zealand has shown that we
Speaker 5: are very concerned about misinformation. New Zealanders are and believe
Speaker 5: we see quite a lot of it, which just that
Speaker 5: belief undermines our trust in our information sources. So we
Speaker 5: need to work very hard to build trust and the
Speaker 5: trust research has done out of aut Media Muliati and
Speaker 5: Greg Treadwell has shown that this is not going away,
Speaker 5: but we can do things about it. Media, literacy, education,
Speaker 5: there is a lot of hope, you know, there is
Speaker 5: a lot of hope. People are concerned, they want to
Speaker 5: learn and we can help. So yeah, I don't think
Speaker 5: we should be all doom and gloom raising awareness and
Speaker 5: knowing what has been a human pattern. It's just that
Speaker 5: social media has allowed that pattern and a lot of
Speaker 5: a lot of extra miles, so to speak.
Speaker 2: So being no easy answers from hell and there. It's complex,
Speaker 2: it's societal, it's interwoven with technological change and control of
Speaker 2: those platforms. It's only going to get worse, and AI
Speaker 2: is just another element that's going to confound things even more.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it wasn't the most positive sounding of interviews, but
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, I think what we
Speaker 1: do need to remember is people do like to speculate
Speaker 1: and get excited about things, but social media can just
Speaker 1: take that speculation and excitement and turn it into something
Speaker 1: pretty nasty pretty quickly. So media literacy is really key,
Speaker 1: and just making sure that we're all you know, if
Speaker 1: you hear somebody talking about something, you have that little
Speaker 1: voice that goes, just check that one maybe, and reminding
Speaker 1: your kids that it's really important to do the same
Speaker 1: as well. That's vital.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's going to be interesting in the
Speaker 2: whole endorsement of Trump by I wouldn't say, you know,
Speaker 2: a widespread contingent of tech leaders in Silicon Valley, but
Speaker 2: definitely some of the powerful ones. Peter Thiel, who was
Speaker 2: a big backer last time, but most notably Elon Musk
Speaker 2: within hours of the assassination attempt endorsing Trump to US
Speaker 2: one hundred and ninety two million followers. Incredibly powerful and
Speaker 2: that's why Trump is basically said in the last week,
Speaker 2: I sort of need to support electric vehicles because of Elon,
Speaker 2: And so he's starting to see this really which we haven't.
Speaker 2: We knew it was happening, but haven't seen it to
Speaker 2: this extent. That sort of the tech bro tech elite,
Speaker 2: conservative leaning elites anyway intertwined with Trump. They've all got
Speaker 2: super packs. They're giving him money. There's got to be
Speaker 2: some payoff for that. So, for instance, on crypto, Trump
Speaker 2: has gone from saying cryptos a scam to basically saying, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: I think I'm going to I'm going to see assets,
Speaker 2: crypto assets and use it to payoff national debt. So
Speaker 2: he's done a one ad on that. But you know,
Speaker 2: is a crypto sector going to see a dream run
Speaker 2: of you know, no regulation and government endorsement of their
Speaker 2: way of doing things. I doubt it. You know, Trump
Speaker 2: is just so sort of self interested, He's got authoritarian tendencies,
Speaker 2: and crypto goes against that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you use the term payoff there, So
Speaker 1: maybe we'll just let that's it.
Speaker 2: So anyway, that's what's going on with social media and
Speaker 2: the fight for control of the political narrative, which is
Speaker 2: intensifying with the US elections looming. But there's another big
Speaker 2: movement underway in the world of online search and the
Speaker 2: advertising that goes with it.
Speaker 1: The online search engine market was worth around two hundred
Speaker 1: billion last year, a market dominated by Google. Even here
Speaker 1: in New Zealand. Google's local accounts show it generated the
Speaker 1: best part of one billion dollars in sales here, much
Speaker 1: of which will be through businesses paying to feature at
Speaker 1: the top of Google search results.
Speaker 2: Those paid links are everything for a retailer or a
Speaker 2: financial services company trying to attract customers. But AI is
Speaker 2: changing search. It became most evident last year with conversational
Speaker 2: Search debuting and Microsoft's being search engine powered by the
Speaker 2: same tech underpinning chat GPT.
Speaker 1: Then a few months ago, Google debut it's aioverview future,
Speaker 1: which will try to answer your search query, not simply
Speaker 1: with a bunch of relevant links, but a short blurb
Speaker 1: attempting to answer your question.
Speaker 2: So featuring in that AI generated blurb will increasingly be
Speaker 2: the place to be in search results. That is implications
Speaker 2: for the type of content website owners create to appeal
Speaker 2: to Google search algorithms.
Speaker 1: At List Digital is a Wellington based paid search and
Speaker 1: social media startup that helps other tech startups find an
Speaker 1: audience in the noisy world of search.
Speaker 2: It's founder, Ryan McMillan, has helped secure some impressive results
Speaker 2: for fast growing companies like Chersey's and Jasper. He's been
Speaker 2: thinking a lot about the future of the search business
Speaker 2: as Google Bing and others embrace AI.
Speaker 1: This one is worth listening to for anyone trying to
Speaker 1: find an audience online. Here's at list Digital's Ryan McMillan.
Speaker 2: Brian, thanks so much for coming on the business of
Speaker 2: Tech Now. We met probably a few months ago for
Speaker 2: the first time. It was on a red Eye flight
Speaker 2: to Wellington, and I was really taken by the conversation.
Speaker 2: We talked about the tech landscape, startups which we're both
Speaker 2: passionate about, and search engine optimization and started talking about
Speaker 2: this revolution that's happening with generative AI, conversational search, which
Speaker 2: is changing the game. So we're going to get into
Speaker 2: that and what it means for New Zealand businesses going
Speaker 2: global trying to find people online to buy their wares.
Speaker 2: But tell us a little bit first about your business
Speaker 2: at list Digital.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Sure, So I started at list Digital about five and
Speaker 3: a half years ago, and fundamentally what we do is
Speaker 3: we specialize in paid search like Google Ads, paid social
Speaker 3: like LinkedIn or Facebook advertising, and then search engine optimization
Speaker 3: as well, which obviously we're here to talk about today.
Speaker 3: So some of our clients seventy five percent of them
Speaker 3: to B SAS companies, with the other twenty five percent
Speaker 3: being B two C SAS or B two C tech.
Speaker 3: And what we find with almost all of the B
Speaker 3: to B SaaS companies is that they're looking to expand internationally.
Speaker 3: So from an SEO perspective, that can already introduce a
Speaker 3: number of questions that need to be answered and ideally
Speaker 3: thought of fairly early in the piece. For example, your
Speaker 3: domain structure is something that's quite important to consider, as
Speaker 3: is the localization of language that you'll be using. Do
Speaker 3: you need to talk in different languages? Do you need
Speaker 3: to colloquialize the language. These are just a few of
Speaker 3: the things that we set out to answer quite early
Speaker 3: on and then work through building a strategy in order
Speaker 3: to make best use of that.
Speaker 2: So I think the perception out there is you know
Speaker 2: search you know was in the late nineties, there were
Speaker 2: early search engines. Google came along with the power of
Speaker 2: its way of ranking pages and its algorithms changed the game,
Speaker 2: and then nothing really happened fundamentally for the next twenty
Speaker 2: five years. There was a lot of great innovation behind
Speaker 2: the scenes, but search the experience that white screen with
Speaker 2: the search bar didn't really change and people love Google.
Speaker 2: Early twenty twenty three, we saw Being, which had really
Speaker 2: been struggling in search, team up with open Ai integrating
Speaker 2: GPT into the Being search engine. A lot of interest
Speaker 2: in that, and that was really the start of conversational search,
Speaker 2: an auto generated summary that tries to answer your question. So, Ryan,
Speaker 2: what is actual conversational search?
Speaker 4: How does it work?
Speaker 3: The ability of conversational search is, first of all, can
Speaker 3: understand using natural language processing the intent behind what you're
Speaker 3: looking for at a much deeper level. It's not about
Speaker 3: going what a related keyword someone might talk about, but
Speaker 3: actually really understanding, hey, what does this person want to know?
Speaker 3: And then on top of that, it has this sort
Speaker 3: of multifaceted, dynamic approach where you can continue to on
Speaker 3: the questions you're asking and almost like it's mimicking actually
Speaker 3: talking to a person. You know, I want to buy
Speaker 3: Nike shoes, and it shows you a bunch, Well, I
Speaker 3: want to see all the red ones. And then now
Speaker 3: you've got all the red ones, and you can really
Speaker 3: build on that, and you can even loop back later
Speaker 3: like remember those those red shoes you showed me? Can
Speaker 3: you show me the first two? Because I want to
Speaker 3: see those two and so the reality is that you're
Speaker 3: almost starting to get this customer service experience from conversational search.
Speaker 3: Like it means that we can go a lot deeper
Speaker 3: with the searches that we're doing, and off the back
Speaker 3: of it probably not only answer the questions we've got better,
Speaker 3: but also walk away with a lot more than we
Speaker 3: sort of bargained for as well. For example, you could
Speaker 3: look at buying Nike shoes, choose the red ones, and
Speaker 3: then go, now, I really want to run this half
Speaker 3: marathon in about six months, what's a training plan? And
Speaker 3: you can really build that and have that all stitched
Speaker 3: up in a few minutes versus right now, you'd need
Speaker 3: to google half marathon training plan and it wouldn't cater
Speaker 3: to you, it wouldn't have your past search experience, it
Speaker 3: wouldn't know who you are, and it wouldn't be out
Speaker 3: of therefore, adjust that information to cater to yourself. So
Speaker 3: it's a really exciting space to be in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty cool. And what's your take on how
Speaker 2: this is changing search engine optimization and your own business?
Speaker 3: It is hugely changing the game. And what I think
Speaker 3: we're going to see is probably less use of a
Speaker 3: traditional search engine as people start to find answers in
Speaker 3: different ways, and by the very nature of that, it
Speaker 3: will also change the SEO industry itself. Do I think
Speaker 3: that that will be the end of SEO? Certainly not.
Speaker 3: But I think SEO as we know it is going
Speaker 3: to change, which I suppose is something quite cliche every
Speaker 3: time every year we hear something that SEO is dead.
Speaker 4: Is SEO dead? I'm not sure? But SEO is certainly
Speaker 4: always changing.
Speaker 2: So what does that mean for the types of content?
Speaker 2: Because ultimately your job now is to try and feature
Speaker 2: in that auto generated summary you want. For instance, if
Speaker 2: your campman do a clothing company and some enters tell
Speaker 2: me the best clothing for a trip to root Burn.
Speaker 2: If I'm hiking the root Burn, what gear do I need?
Speaker 2: Katmandu wants to be in that summary at the top
Speaker 2: of Google. So what do you need to do now
Speaker 2: to make sure that your stuff gets there.
Speaker 3: The experiential nature is probably the most important piece of
Speaker 3: SEO at the moment, and in my opinion, it's the
Speaker 3: way that we really find that competitive advantage against llm's
Speaker 3: which your AI like Gemini, which will be able to
Speaker 3: give your answers and result in people not visiting your
Speaker 3: website at all. I think with the Gemini responses, really
Speaker 3: what they're doing is synthesizing all of the information on
Speaker 3: the web and then using that to obviously generate an
Speaker 3: answer based on the patterns and data that the model's
Speaker 3: been trained on. So I think that there's going to
Speaker 3: be less opportunity for businesses to really produce that sort
Speaker 3: of information level content that doesn't necessarily have a point
Speaker 3: of difference, and that's where this originality piece really starts
Speaker 3: to shine. The thing is about one three hundred percent
Speaker 3: increase in searches for Reddit variants in the past twelve months,
Speaker 3: and Reddit, I believe was actually the sixth most or
Speaker 3: so visited website in the past year compared to the
Speaker 3: sixty eighth the year before. And I think that what
Speaker 3: that shows is a really solid display that people want information.
Speaker 3: They want to search what do I need for the
Speaker 3: root burn track? And they want to know I need,
Speaker 3: you know, a range jacket and this many thermals and
Speaker 3: that type of thing. But they also want to know
Speaker 3: from you know, John that did the root burn track
Speaker 3: and how we found it and if autumn was a
Speaker 3: good time to do it, and what his experience was
Speaker 3: and I think that there's a real harmony that can
Speaker 3: exist in search results, in this sort of information seeking
Speaker 3: dynamic where humans can continue to play a big part.
Speaker 3: And so stepping back from that, there's a big sort
Speaker 3: of semantic understanding component that Google and other search engines
Speaker 3: have been really trying to capture the past several years.
Speaker 3: So since about twenty thirteen and specifically in twenty fifteen,
Speaker 3: there's pretty big updates to the Google search algorithm around
Speaker 3: really understanding the wider meaning of what you're looking for.
Speaker 3: It used to be the case. I mean, this is
Speaker 3: a whole other story, but it used to be so interesting.
Speaker 3: You could literally just write in white text on a
Speaker 3: white background life insurance five hundred times and that would
Speaker 3: help you get to the top of Google. And these
Speaker 3: days you don't even have to use the exact word
Speaker 3: life insurance to rank for the keyword life insurance. Your
Speaker 3: page just has to be about that. And so this
Speaker 3: sort of wider contextual semantic understanding has existed in Google's
Speaker 3: machine learning algorithm. But what's so interesting now is really
Speaker 3: the ability, through the patterns and data matching, to anticipate
Speaker 3: the other things that you might want to know to
Speaker 3: your point around what does a business need to do?
Speaker 3: Google talks about something called EAT, which is experience, expertise, authority,
Speaker 3: and trustworthiness, and I think that those things continue to
Speaker 3: play a big role. Experience obviously is a big one,
Speaker 3: as demonstrated by Reddit. Fundamentally, what we want to do
Speaker 3: is create content that's original as a keyword or as
Speaker 3: a key point, but also that can't be copied easily,
Speaker 3: because that's the real point of difference here. And so
Speaker 3: when you can leverage things like first party data. So
Speaker 3: if you're cat man Do and you for some reason
Speaker 3: had data on how many people are doing the rout
Speaker 3: burn track, you could leverage that data in some way
Speaker 3: to provide a point of difference in an article that
Speaker 3: someone can't get elsewhere. Likewise, you could have your own
Speaker 3: catman Do community and then break that down into the
Speaker 3: different tracks people have done, and you have your own
Speaker 3: sort of Reddit experience. In that sense, trustworthiness and brand
Speaker 3: signals is a big one, and I think what we
Speaker 3: really want to do is build around specific authors so
Speaker 3: that they know, hey, it's Peter that's writing this article.
Speaker 3: When I follow Peter and Peter is writing for Katmandu
Speaker 3: or Similarly, it could be if you're the CEO of
Speaker 3: Catman do, then you build this authorship. These owned communities
Speaker 3: are going to become more important, and I think the
Speaker 3: placement of content across different channels, with SEO being one
Speaker 3: of them, is really where the space is going to
Speaker 3: move to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's easier than ever now to actually generate
Speaker 2: content for your website with generative AI. You can get chat,
Speaker 2: GPT or Perplexity or Gemini to do that. But the
Speaker 2: search engine isn't going to like that because everyone is
Speaker 2: doing that. It's not unique. What they're wanting is that
Speaker 2: community based stuff, that experiential stuff, case studies. So what
Speaker 2: does does that mean? Let's say, like a campman do,
Speaker 2: should you be really pushing to get people to review
Speaker 2: your stuff and write about your stuff on redded or
Speaker 2: in camping forums and things like that. You're going to
Speaker 2: have to put a lot more effort into generating that
Speaker 2: more genuine content.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I believe so.
Speaker 3: And I think that there's been this concept in se
Speaker 3: of backlinking, which Google has always described as kind of
Speaker 3: like votes from other website about your website, and that
Speaker 3: provides you a significant boost in your chances of ranking
Speaker 3: for a search result.
Speaker 4: If lots of other websites.
Speaker 3: Are ranking a linking back to you, now what I
Speaker 3: think the backlinks will continue to exist, But and that
Speaker 3: component and the ranking algorithm of what we populate, whether
Speaker 3: that's populated by an AI or it's populated in the
Speaker 3: search results below that automated response, it's going to focus
Speaker 3: much more on social signals, So are you on LinkedIn
Speaker 3: and have a following and other things like that. And
Speaker 3: I think that it's also going to focus in a
Speaker 3: big way on the review component as well, and so
Speaker 3: building that trustworthiness through reviews I think will become one
Speaker 3: of the key new sort of ways that you get backlinks.
Speaker 3: So yes, you should be on forums, you should be
Speaker 3: on social channels, and really you just want to leverage
Speaker 3: as much anecdotal personal reviews as you can, as opposed
Speaker 3: to just writing a blog about here's how you can
Speaker 3: get to the root burn track and then asking someone
Speaker 3: else that wrote about a different track to link to
Speaker 3: the root burn track article you've written, which is the
Speaker 3: old way of doing it.
Speaker 4: At the end of the day, like.
Speaker 3: What Google rewards is providing users with a great experience.
Speaker 3: So Google is a multi billion dollar cash machine they
Speaker 3: invest in all sorts of stuff, from automated driving through
Speaker 3: to all sorts of other sort of like research endeavors
Speaker 3: that they're involved in, but really it's all funded by
Speaker 3: Google Ads. And so for them, success looks like someone
Speaker 3: searching in Google, getting their answer and leaving, or you know,
Speaker 3: continuing to search for other things. And so what they
Speaker 3: want you to do is just provide the best user experience.
Speaker 3: And I think that the main opportunity for providing the
Speaker 3: best user experience now comes from what can people add
Speaker 3: to the max, not what sort of blogs can we
Speaker 3: come up to?
Speaker 4: Which are a GENAI could just do it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're seeing some of our B two C
Speaker 2: brands like Charities, which is a client of yours. They're
Speaker 2: doing great work to doing podcasts, are doing how to articles,
Speaker 2: they're active on social media. So in the hope that
Speaker 2: that stuff rises up because it's really good quality content.
Speaker 2: But in terms of like maybe a company like Timely,
Speaker 2: which is more of a B to B company, it's
Speaker 2: the same sort of set of rules apply. How do
Speaker 2: you introduce that experiential sort of review type experiences? Is
Speaker 2: what using Timely is Like, I mean, there are websites
Speaker 2: like clatching that which review businesses based on their customer
Speaker 2: service and the quality of their products. Is there going
Speaker 2: to be a lot more of a focus on those
Speaker 2: sorts of review aggregator sites that are aimed at B
Speaker 2: to B type products.
Speaker 3: I think review aggregators are one part of it. That
Speaker 3: market itself is actually very saturated, and if you take
Speaker 3: a given search, like you insert your vertical plus software
Speaker 3: type search, so say like here Salon software or something
Speaker 3: like that. In the case of Timely, those software qualifier
Speaker 3: searches are pretty much dominated by the likes of G
Speaker 3: two and trust Radius, et cetera. So it's important to
Speaker 3: be part of those, but it's also important to add
Speaker 3: a personal touch of actual customers reviewing your product, whether
Speaker 3: that might be other sort of business influencers in the space.
Speaker 3: There are sort of like smaller medium business influencers around
Speaker 3: the world that actually focus specifically on the beauty industry,
Speaker 3: but also just talking to your specific customers and then
Speaker 3: tying that back to the actual business benefits. Because there's
Speaker 3: say the G two reviews that you might get, which
Speaker 3: are more feature driven and are really about parody and
Speaker 3: which software does what better than the other. But then
Speaker 3: there's also this other experience of like the purpose of
Speaker 3: using that software, which is I now have a lot
Speaker 3: more time, and I've managed to hire two more people.
Speaker 3: I spend that time working on the business, not in
Speaker 3: the business, those types of things. So adding in that
Speaker 3: first party data improvement that you've got and then putting
Speaker 3: faces on it, because at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: people pretty much buy from people.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So for decades, Google has made a lot of
Speaker 2: money by you know, those first few links, sponsored links
Speaker 2: at the top. They've talked about that this will apply
Speaker 2: to AI overviews at some point as well. How do
Speaker 2: you see that playing out? So you will literally pay
Speaker 2: to be featured in that summary overview that they give.
Speaker 2: How do they balance that trust and interest in giving
Speaker 2: you the really good stuff with their desire to make
Speaker 2: money out of those those who are featured in those summaries.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think a lot of it will come
Speaker 3: down to the actual trust for the brand for that business.
Speaker 3: So if people still really trust Google, then the same
Speaker 3: way that Google ads is really effective is that actually
Speaker 3: people might just go, oh, I'll just go to this anyway,
Speaker 3: because you know, I trust Google, I like to I'll
Speaker 3: continue using it. Similarly, in and the AI responses. As
Speaker 3: long as people are getting the value from those responses,
Speaker 3: whether they're sponsored or not, people will continue to come back.
Speaker 3: And in Google Ads an SEO, Google has a way
Speaker 3: to measure the actual quality of what's happening as well,
Speaker 3: sign a quality score to your ads, and that influences
Speaker 3: the price that you actually pay as well. And so
Speaker 3: I don't think necessarily that the sponsored component will make
Speaker 3: people stop using the platform more or less. It's more
Speaker 3: about the quality of the sponsored content if they got.
Speaker 4: Their query answer.
Speaker 3: Now, one bigger piece to think about is actually just
Speaker 3: the business models that will be used, because obviously open
Speaker 3: ai is using a subscription model at the moment, and
Speaker 3: Google Ads is using like a pay per click model
Speaker 3: where you click their ad, the advertiser would pay Google
Speaker 3: a bunch of money and that's how they make these
Speaker 3: billions of dollars. So it's interesting to think about, you know,
Speaker 3: what the actual business models will be that will drive this.
Speaker 3: I'm sure there will still be continue to be an
Speaker 3: advertising component, but will that look more like a Netflix
Speaker 3: where it's like there's sort of two tiers where you
Speaker 3: can pay for a subscription and never get any sponsored content.
Speaker 3: You know, essentially paying Google almost for like a type
Speaker 3: of ad blocker, yeah, which should almost be genius from Google,
Speaker 3: or actually just paying to see the ads, and they
Speaker 3: get paid both ways as well.
Speaker 4: So it'll be interesting to see how that changes.
Speaker 2: If you do feature in an AI summary. How are
Speaker 2: the metrics potentially going to have to change when it's
Speaker 2: not necessarily all going to be about clickthrough and impressions.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is really interesting and definitely a question that
Speaker 3: all advertisers are asking. Fundamentally though, we need to really
Speaker 3: think about in terms of attribution, moving away from impressions
Speaker 3: and clicks anyway, in my opinion, I fund you know,
Speaker 3: Atlas Digital obviously measures to a very great degree right
Speaker 3: through to close one business, how much revenue we're actually
Speaker 3: generating for a customer. Somations useful for us. But what
Speaker 3: we do know is that when you focus on top
Speaker 3: level brand awareness and make people feel something about your brand,
Speaker 3: that's generally what tends to drive the majority of new
Speaker 3: users into your company, especially as you grow. And so
Speaker 3: I think that brand advertising is going to be really
Speaker 3: important and that you just need to really focus on.
Speaker 3: There needs to be almost some sort of metric to
Speaker 3: understand the quality of the experience someone had, and maybe
Speaker 3: that will be solved by things like, you know, you've
Speaker 3: got your laptop camera and can recognize the emotions in
Speaker 3: your face when you're looking at something. Obviously there's hover
Speaker 3: over rates and other things like that, but I think
Speaker 3: it's these kind of micro engagements that will start being
Speaker 3: measured to a greater degree so that we can know
Speaker 3: if we're eliciting positive responses around what the person's seeing
Speaker 3: in our brand.
Speaker 2: We have seen sort of the dark side of AI
Speaker 2: generated search already. You know, Gemini and Google's oversights. AI
Speaker 2: insights had a rough start putting glue on pizza that thing.
Speaker 2: So there's that aspect, the hallucinations, the misinformation that could
Speaker 2: potentially be built into those If they see content being
Speaker 2: engaged with on Reddit in a huge way, it might
Speaker 2: be featured on Google, but it might be wrong. So
Speaker 2: there's that problem. Then, is I guess the ethical issue
Speaker 2: off where they're scraping content from and who gets rewarded
Speaker 2: for producing that content If it doesn't have a product
Speaker 2: you can buy at the end of it, someone's just
Speaker 2: creating great quality content which Google is scooping up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I definitely think that the hallucinations component will be
Speaker 3: solved in time or at least obviously reduce and the
Speaker 3: frequency that it happens over time. The licensing component is
Speaker 3: quite interesting to think about, and I'm not too sure
Speaker 3: how Google is going to really deal with scooping that content,
Speaker 3: as you put it, from different websites in the years
Speaker 3: to come. If we think about the current information and
Speaker 3: the web, then we've got that's what all these llms
Speaker 3: have been trained on. And if we think of that
Speaker 3: from a static picture, producing new content right now potentially
Speaker 3: has become less advantageous. If you're a business, you might
Speaker 3: want to produce fewer pieces of content that's more original experience,
Speaker 3: as we've been discussing, or you can simply use an
Speaker 3: LLM to mass produce content that effectively exists already and
Speaker 3: doesn't really add anything to the ecosystem.
Speaker 4: So, if we think.
Speaker 3: About in two decades time, what's all the new content
Speaker 3: going to be, people are going to have to produce it,
Speaker 3: and Google or other searchings that are going to have
Speaker 3: to provide some sort of way for people to get
Speaker 3: some sort of commercial benefit from doing it. I actually
Speaker 3: think that, you know, owning your own audience is the
Speaker 3: best thing that you can do at the moment, whether
Speaker 3: that's all your followers on LinkedIn, and you know YouTube
Speaker 3: does it so well with all their creators monetizing all
Speaker 3: of the audiences that they've built. And then over time,
Speaker 3: I think that there will be opportunities to show and Google,
Speaker 3: whether it's through life licensing or advertising or whatever it
Speaker 3: may be.
Speaker 2: So then if you do own your own customer base,
Speaker 2: essentially we're talking about things like email distribution lists, maybe
Speaker 2: setting up a forum for them. And if you can
Speaker 2: do that on your own platform as opposed to just
Speaker 2: being in a Facebook group or on LinkedIn, the insights
Speaker 2: you're going to get about their behavior and what they
Speaker 2: want are going to be that much greater.
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, And I think that there's something that exists
Speaker 3: for all of them, right, Like larger enterprises will be
Speaker 3: able to build their own communities. I know law View
Speaker 3: has done a fantastic job of building a community. I
Speaker 3: think total on a B to B SaaS company. Whereas
Speaker 3: if you're a smaller business, it might be that you
Speaker 3: just have a subreddit and you're just constantly in that subreddit.
Speaker 3: You might have a Facebook group, and certainly there's email
Speaker 3: distribution lists and LinkedIn groups that you can.
Speaker 4: Build as well.
Speaker 3: And so I think it's just not really putting all
Speaker 3: of your eggs in one basket and then seeing how
Speaker 3: things play out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's your sort of vision for where search is
Speaker 2: going to go in sort of the next decade? If
Speaker 2: we're looking big picture, it's the game has been sewn
Speaker 2: up by Google for so long? Is this really the
Speaker 2: starting point of a proliferation? We've got perplexity, We've got
Speaker 2: all these stability, we've got all these AI companies. Are
Speaker 2: they going to be able to hop over that wall
Speaker 2: that was insurmountable before by building sort of search related
Speaker 2: functions into their own AI products to compete with Google?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that the search market definitely has been
Speaker 3: a win it takes all scenario. I think that the
Speaker 3: sad reality is that up until and I don't know
Speaker 3: if this has changed, but up until about a year ago,
Speaker 3: the most search thing in being was Google, or at
Speaker 3: least the top five, which is really demonstrative of Google's
Speaker 3: dominance in the market. It's possible that new entrants do
Speaker 3: come and shake that up quite significantly, but we also
Speaker 3: need to take into account when thinking about the future
Speaker 3: of search that whole adoption cycle as well.
Speaker 4: It doesn't.
Speaker 3: While it seems like ais everywhere, a lot of people
Speaker 3: aren't using it outside of the bubbles that we might
Speaker 3: exist in, a lot of people have never even used it,
Speaker 3: and they're still using Google in a big way.
Speaker 4: And so I think that the.
Speaker 3: Actual time it will take before people have migrated to
Speaker 3: a totally different system will be a very long time,
Speaker 3: and certainly the younger generation might adopt it earlier.
Speaker 4: Could be the case.
Speaker 3: But likewise, Google has a massive war chest of capital
Speaker 3: that they can invest and they've got Gemini rolled out. Obviously,
Speaker 3: eating a rock a day isn't the type of thing
Speaker 3: that's great for their brand, but they do have a
Speaker 3: fantastic brand that people do love. Like Google, it is
Speaker 3: literally a verb you know, you don't bring it, And
Speaker 3: so I think to unshake that solid position they've got
Speaker 3: will actually be quite difficult. Where I think commercially, in
Speaker 3: terms of digital marketing, the search market is going, I'm
Speaker 3: not too sure. I think that I've got a couple
Speaker 3: of views on it. I think think that advertising models
Speaker 3: will change quite a bit away from pay per click.
Speaker 4: You know, if you're going to.
Speaker 3: Reduce the attribution that you can show in terms of
Speaker 3: how the efficacy of using those channels, then it makes
Speaker 3: sense that they will start to stack up less versus
Speaker 3: other channels because you simply just don't know the roy
Speaker 3: So I think that there might be more of a
Speaker 3: shift maybe to more subscription driven businesses versus just pure
Speaker 3: like pay per click models. That's probably my main view.
Speaker 3: I also just think that it's important not to shoot
Speaker 3: your shot too early, to iteratively change your business as
Speaker 3: you go and adjust to the times, but don't go
Speaker 3: all in, because I think this is really just scratching
Speaker 3: the surface of, you know, where everything's going to go.
Speaker 1: In some ways, I guess it seems like Ryan is
Speaker 1: saying that things won't actually change that much. There's still
Speaker 1: going to be a lot of energy and effort put
Speaker 1: into figuring out how to be ahead of the game
Speaker 1: when it comes to search compared to others, and it's
Speaker 1: going to take specialists. It's going to take time and
Speaker 1: energy to actually learn how to do that. But it's
Speaker 1: just the way that you do it might be changing
Speaker 1: a little bit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and where you put your effort not necessarily just
Speaker 2: you know, in terms of where you spend money on
Speaker 2: paid search and social media, but in terms of building
Speaker 2: that sort of content base that is going to appeal
Speaker 2: to search engines, not just Googles, but any search engine
Speaker 2: that it has AI at the heart of it, it's
Speaker 2: all about experiential content. It's about how to This was
Speaker 2: what I did with this product, and this is why
Speaker 2: I liked it or didn't like it, which is why
Speaker 2: I read it and that I have suddenly seen a
Speaker 2: surge in traffic. So, thinking about any company, whether you're
Speaker 2: a B to B or a B two C company,
Speaker 2: how do I build a platform or a community or
Speaker 2: a forum that creates that sort of content that is
Speaker 2: going to be the real rich stuff that when Google
Speaker 2: indexes my site, the algorithm goes, ooh, this is really
Speaker 2: useful storytelling or experiential evidence. I want to use that
Speaker 2: to feature in an AI overview of some sort of summary.
Speaker 2: That's what people are going to have to be thinking about,
Speaker 2: and that is quite tricky because maintaining a community takes
Speaker 2: a lot of work. You have to sort of police
Speaker 2: it and make sure that it's a nice place to be.
Speaker 2: We saw that in the nineties early two thousands, and
Speaker 2: with the rise of blogging, it was a great time
Speaker 2: for the Internet because there were genuine communities that were moderated,
Speaker 2: usually with a light touch, and it was great commentary
Speaker 2: going on in those places. We're sort of seeing return
Speaker 2: to that sort of goal that comes out of those communities.
Speaker 2: But it's quite a big investment to sort of especially
Speaker 2: if you're doing it off your own platforms, to sort
Speaker 2: of build that and maintain it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we may, you know, unintentionally, see a
Speaker 1: new arms race in terms of that content creation. You
Speaker 1: already have probably seen those gifts of videos going around
Speaker 1: the Internet of people with a literal wall of mobile
Speaker 1: phones that are all plugged into a central computer and
Speaker 1: they're just going through and putting fake reviews up and
Speaker 1: doing all this kind of stuff. So no doubt we'll
Speaker 1: start to see people trying to game the system with
Speaker 1: some fakery as well. I don't know how that can
Speaker 1: be done. In terms of creating your own community on
Speaker 1: your own website, I don't think that's something that necessarily
Speaker 1: will be able to be done. It's going to be
Speaker 1: about creating communities on existing forums. Like you mentioned Reddit, right,
Speaker 1: and you have your subreddits, but you also have people
Speaker 1: mentioning things in various reddits, so you might have an
Speaker 1: art reddit and people will ask what are the best
Speaker 1: paint brushes? That subreddit isn't controlled by I don't know
Speaker 1: what's an art brand. I really should have picked something
Speaker 1: I know anything about that isn't necessarily controlled by a
Speaker 1: particular art brand. So it's about getting your valued customers
Speaker 1: to engage with you in those common spaces online.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the other thing that really struck me that
Speaker 2: Ryan said towards the end, there is the rise of
Speaker 2: gen Ai built into personal assistance and voice assistance, and
Speaker 2: the changing nature off searching for things as a result
Speaker 2: of that, where we sort of outsource these search queries
Speaker 2: to a voice assistant. To date, that's been a pretty
Speaker 2: crappy experience. It's very clunky. But what Amazon is going
Speaker 2: to try and do with Alexa and Apple with Siri,
Speaker 2: with Apple Intelligence and all of that will elevate that.
Speaker 2: So that may mean that impressions and clicks are less
Speaker 2: important in future, and that will be a great relief
Speaker 2: to a lot of people whose lives are dictated by
Speaker 2: those sort of metrics at the moment. And I think
Speaker 2: at Hired, a lot of people know that those are
Speaker 2: hollow measurements. But what do you replaced them with. So
Speaker 2: if there is some other ways of measuring success through
Speaker 2: searching for things in a different way and being stepped
Speaker 2: through processes how to make a recipe, a dish based
Speaker 2: on a recipe, how to go travel, and companies are
Speaker 2: rewarded along the way, I think a lot of people
Speaker 2: will welcome that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's a nice idea of the future
Speaker 1: of search, isn't it that we would be getting our
Speaker 1: information from these people who are experts and experienced and
Speaker 1: have done it and can talk about it with that authority.
Speaker 1: I think traditionally we haven't really seen that shakeout in
Speaker 1: the Internet when it comes to corporate interests and advertising.
Speaker 1: So maybe this will be the golden time. Maybe this
Speaker 1: will be the golden age of the Internet in terms
Speaker 1: of how we get information from other people and authoritative sources.
Speaker 1: That would be nice.
Speaker 2: And literally the day after we spoke to Ryan, the
Speaker 2: news broke about this Department of Justice case against Google,
Speaker 2: basically saying confirming in court Google is a monopoly and
Speaker 2: we are going to now take some time to decide
Speaker 2: what to do about it, and that could include everything
Speaker 2: from telling them they can't pay Apple and Mozilla billions
Speaker 2: of dollars to favor the Google search engine anymore, all
Speaker 2: the way through to We're going to break you up
Speaker 2: and how that might work. That's got years to play out,
Speaker 2: so we won't see any immediate results from that. But
Speaker 2: another fact there, and maybe something to your sort of
Speaker 2: optimistic view about the era that we may be entering.
Speaker 2: If we do have three or four strong players in search,
Speaker 2: what that would mean for the average Kiwi company that's
Speaker 2: going out to try and buy some Adam ventry on
Speaker 2: a search engine. Maybe it's going to lead to them
Speaker 2: paying a lot less and therefo we're able to invest
Speaker 2: more to find an audience. That would be a great thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he is hoping anyway. I feel like I say
Speaker 1: that a lot at the end of our episodes, a
Speaker 1: lot of hope. Hope is good. We finished on an
Speaker 1: optimistic note.
Speaker 2: Thanks to Ryan McMillan from Atlas Digital for joining us
Speaker 2: this week. I learned a lot and I hope you
Speaker 2: did too.
Speaker 1: And don't forget. The Business of Tech is on all
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Speaker 1: stream every episode. Show notes are in the Tech section
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Speaker 2: topics and guest suggestions. Email Ben on Ben at businessdesk
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Speaker 1: Stay tuned for another dose of the business of tech
Speaker 1: coming your way next Thursday morning.
Speaker 2: Catch you then,