WEBVTT - Age verification checks online are on the rise - why experts are concerned for our privacy 0:00:05.480 --> 0:00:05.920 Kiyota. 0:00:06.040 --> 0:00:09.320 I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:11.119 daily podcast. 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:12.760 Presented by The New Zealand Herald. 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:19.439 The days of simply ticking a box to confirm your 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:23.520 age online are over. The UK has become one of 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.920 the first countries to make it harder for Internet users 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:32.519 to consume pornography by requiring age of verification measures in 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:36.599 an effort to prevent under eighteens from viewing explicit content. 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:41.200 The move has sparked concern though, about users giving even 0:00:41.360 --> 0:00:45.839 more data and personal information to tech companies, and has 0:00:46.000 --> 0:00:47.760 raised questions. 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:49.479 About whether the process actually works. 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:54.960 So, with these new laws gaining popularity overseas, could it 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:57.840 happen here in New Zealand and how do we do 0:00:57.880 --> 0:00:58.520 it properly? 0:00:59.200 --> 0:00:59.520 Today? 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:04.080 On the Front Technology Users Association of New Zealand CEO 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:07.720 Craig Young is with us to discuss how to balance 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:17.480 safety with privacy online. First off, Craig, we're talking about 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:21.600 this after the UK announced new laws around accessing porn 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:24.240 last month. Now, for those who may not have seen this, 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:26.200 can you explain what they actually are? 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:30.400 So the number of jurisdictions around the world are concerned 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:34.399 about you know how children getting access to parts of 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:37.440 the Internet that perhaps their parents and guardians aren't that 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:40.840 happy about. And so in the UK they pass the 0:01:40.880 --> 0:01:45.600 Online Safety Act, and in this Act it is all 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:49.600 around access to content on the web, and so the 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:52.160 rules came into place on the twenty fifth of July, 0:01:52.320 --> 0:01:55.800 particular on pornography, although that's not actually defined in the Act. 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:59.160 What's happened is that they have put in place or 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:03.000 anybody that's pining information that could harm could be harmful, 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:07.279 or could be content that parents don't want their children 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:10.679 to see, they're put in place age verification. So basically, 0:02:10.720 --> 0:02:13.760 when you log into a website, it's going to ask 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:16.400 you to verify your age. And no longer will it 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:18.760 be enough just to tick a box to say I'm 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:21.280 over eighteen, because as we know, it's one of the 0:02:21.320 --> 0:02:23.720 easiest things to get around. It will have to be 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:28.040 some formal way of certifying your age. So that's what 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:29.000 they've put in place. 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:32.880 So what kind of technology is being used by these 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:36.639 sites to try and at least get some age verification. 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:39.639 Well, there's a variety of ways that you can do this. 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:42.760 I mean, let's start off by just saying age is 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:48.320 a very blunt tool, particularly if you have sites that 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:51.359 might have information on it that you want young people 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:53.880 to get to, but might be a little bit out 0:02:53.919 --> 0:02:57.320 there that some parents aren't overly happy with. But perhaps 0:02:57.440 --> 0:02:59.960 there are some parents who want their kids to see 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:03.440 and we're not talking pornography here, we're talking about you know, sex, 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:08.560 sex education, sexualize, you know, learning about sexuality, etc. They 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:11.720 would be caught by this if by a blunt tool, 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:14.400 which is age and there are a number of ways 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:18.240 of doing this. Perhaps the scariest one is facial recognition. 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:19.400 So that is. 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:23.400 Where you have to allow the site or the or 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:28.040 the age verification tool to see your face. There are 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:32.760 people that you know can full that sort of technology 0:03:32.800 --> 0:03:35.800 because you might look young. But also, you know, do 0:03:35.840 --> 0:03:40.360 you really want some device or some site on the 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:45.120 internet actually getting a look at your child's face or 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:48.200 your own face for someone like me and for yourself. 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:51.920 You know, we are semi public figures. We are on 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:54.640 the internet, you know, we have LinkedIn pages. But there 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:57.120 will be adults that really do not want to share 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:00.480 their their face. There are parents who do not want 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:03.240 to have their kids on the internet or to be 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:06.040 captured by these sorts of things. So look, that's probably 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:08.920 one extreme and then there are a range of others, 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:12.080 and certainly in the UK they've sort of identified six 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:14.280 or seven different ways in which you can do this. 0:04:14.720 --> 0:04:17.719 Some of those are things like, you know, using the 0:04:17.760 --> 0:04:21.200 mobile number that you're using on the device. So the 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:27.200 device you go onto website, the site asks your mobile 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:29.960 carrier says, this phone number is trying to get onto 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:34.600 my site? Are they eighteen or under? And so that 0:04:34.640 --> 0:04:37.520 puts the onus on the mobile company, for example. That's 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:38.360 one way of doing it. 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:42.159 But another kids have phones under their parents' plans though 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:42.920 these days. 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:44.599 Right, that is right? 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:46.960 And so do you have to find a way around that? 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:49.880 And so does that mean that the mobile company has 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:52.400 to ask you when you're putting it in you know, 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:54.320 what is the age of the person using this phone? 0:04:54.360 --> 0:04:56.000 What is the birth that Look, i haven't signed up 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:58.120 for a mobile service for a long time, so I'm 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:00.479 really not sure whether whether I've said that, but they've 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:01.960 probably got my birth date somewhere. 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:07.160 We're not sadenesstoring anyone. We've got some measures which are 0:05:07.200 --> 0:05:09.719 there to protect children's I don't see that as a 0:05:09.720 --> 0:05:10.599 free speech issue. 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:12.240 I see that as a child protection. 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:14.320 We actually passed the bill in Congress head it up 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:19.960 by my wife actually, which was to pull bad stuff 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:22.600 out having to do with children because it is a problem. 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:27.280 But I cannot imagine how's answering truth social this war 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:30.320 of a very political and you know, it's been a 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:31.240 very big success. 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:35.600 So yeah, So that sort of information that you're now 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:40.000 having to hand over to a third party around that 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:42.960 sort of data about you. You know, we all know 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:49.280 that the way people get access to our data is 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:52.280 by knowing certain things about us, So like our name, 0:05:53.320 --> 0:05:56.840 maybe a passport number, maybe a birth dated birth. You know, 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:59.760 a lot of the time it particularly early on, you know, 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:02.800 to date a birth that you use to validate yourself 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:06.040 on a site that's been hacked, you know, if you're 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:08.320 giving it over, So there has to be new and 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:11.320 different ways of doing it. So that's another way. Another 0:06:11.360 --> 0:06:17.120 way that could be done is through adult filters, where 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:21.599 you're doing it through your internet connection, or it could 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:27.279 be using an age verification tool, which is a completely 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:34.240 different website or app that you validate your age. So 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:36.400 you might have to insert you might have to send 0:06:36.440 --> 0:06:39.200 them a picture of your passport or a birth certificate, 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:43.480 some really critical piece of information which they can then 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:47.160 certify so that when you go to a site, the 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:50.680 site can then query the third party. And basically what 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:52.880 they do is they go is this person eating or over? 0:06:52.920 --> 0:06:55.920 They're not asking who is this person? What's their birthdate 0:06:56.040 --> 0:06:58.720 or any like that. They're just saying is this person 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:04.320 And if the age certification goes yes, then you let it. 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:07.040 If it says no, you're not. So it's a pretty 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:12.280 binary answer, right. The question is that third party holding 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:14.560 on to your data? Are they keeping hold of your 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:18.840 passport copy? Are they keeping hold your best are they 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:21.880 holding your birth date for example? And there is a 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:26.120 variety of these. Some of them we don't know, and 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:28.480 some of them they're saying, yes, we're only going to 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:31.200 look at that data once set it up in our 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:33.360 system and then delete it. I don't know about you. 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:37.880 Some people I might really might be happy about having 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:42.400 my data, perhaps my airline, but not sure about some 0:07:42.440 --> 0:07:46.160 of these other organizations that are doing this. So you know, 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:48.400 there's a trust level you have to find. And so 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:51.680 what the UKB said is off comm have said, which 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:54.880 is the regulator in the UK, here's seven such or 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:58.160 seven ways that you can use. And then the user, 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:01.400 which is some like US can decide when we go 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:03.720 to a site, if they ask us for something, we 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:06.000 can go no, I'm not prepared to give you that information, 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:10.160 so you won't have access. Or it might be they 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:13.120 use a different certain way of certifying your age. You go, yep, 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:16.240 I'm happy with that. I'll get access to it. So yeah, 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:17.600 there's a range of ways of doing it. 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:29.320 The UK isn't the only country talking about this though and. 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:32.800 Implementing laws like this. Half of the US. 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:36.760 States now require age verification, and the EU is also 0:08:37.000 --> 0:08:39.040 rolling out laws across the block. 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:41.240 Why is this suddenly trending? 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:48.480 I think what we're seeing is a recognition that the 0:08:48.480 --> 0:08:51.839 way our kids, in particular those that have grown up 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:57.000 in the in the time of smartphones, the way they're 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:02.319 accessing the Internet, and the way the sites, particularly you know, 0:09:02.440 --> 0:09:07.600 social media sites are controlling using algorithms, you know, the 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:10.560 way they hook people in and keep them in. I mean, 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:13.840 who of us, even at my advanced age, hasn't got 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:18.520 stuck at some point going down rabbit holes or scrolling reels. 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:22.199 You know, as much as we think we're in control, 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:24.800 you know, there are things that all this looks interesting, 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:27.000 This looks interesting, This looks interesting and it just hooks 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.240 you in. And so what we're saying is this is 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:32.600 not working for our kids. This is not a positive 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:36.040 influence on them. And it's that's I think, you know, 0:09:36.320 --> 0:09:38.840 we are starting to think we've got to do something, 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:42.240 and I think that's where it really comes down to politicians, right, 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:45.520 So we do we advocate the politicians. Politicians like to 0:09:45.559 --> 0:09:48.440 see things in black and white. You know, we want 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:50.600 to do something, so we want to be seen to 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:53.320 be doing something. What can we do all the easiest 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:55.360 thing we can do is put an age limit on it. 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:58.160 And obviously in the States, in the US, you know, 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:02.360 there is also a geopolitical move to less state control 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.280 and more parental control. So you start to see that 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:08.839 flow through the European unions different they are allowing each 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:12.080 of their countries to implement their own national bands, but 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.520 they're also working together to come up with an EU 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:19.679 age verification app, so their own app, so that has 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:22.000 all sorts of implications with it. And then of course 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:23.920 a cross in Australia, this is probably the one that's 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:27.600 closest to us. They are probably putting in the world's 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:32.040 strictest laws around media, around age restrictions, so from December, 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:37.600 social media platforms that they designate the government designates age 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:41.920 restricted must take reasonable steps to prevent children under sixteen 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.719 from creating accounts on their services. So it is a 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:51.839 you know, a broad band. They've defined it as Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:55.920 x TikTok. They weren't going to do YouTube, but they 0:10:55.920 --> 0:10:59.839 are now they've brought that into that. So basically it 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:03.520 doesn't prevent children from sixteen under sixteen viewing it, but 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:06.120 they won't be able to have their own accounts. So 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:08.640 that's the way they're doing it. But that's pretty tough 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:12.079 and you can be fined up to fifty million Australian 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:15.800 dollars for not complying with the new rule, so you know, 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:17.559 they are pretty stiff penalties. 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:21.240 What I mean when I see these debates going on, 0:11:21.320 --> 0:11:24.240 I mean I don't have children, and my friends don't 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:27.480 have children of the age to be able to access 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:30.280 these things, right, But I think where is the level 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:35.320 of parental responsibility when it comes to kids on social media, 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:38.000 kids being able to get access to a computer, kids 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:38.720 seeing porn. 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.240 It's a really good question because it pulls into a 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:46.160 question a couple of things. One is, you know how 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:50.320 much control parents can have. There are questions that you 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:54.080 have to ask around at, particularly once they get into 0:11:54.160 --> 0:12:00.320 that teenage stage. You know, as a blanket ban on 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:06.040 anything somebody thinks is harmful, and that's the problem. Someone 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:10.680 has to definitely define harmful. Is that a good way 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:15.120 of helping our young people understand their own selves and 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:19.720 their lives and how to live in this current world? 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:20.439 Now? 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:24.160 I think you you know, somewhere in their parental control 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:28.600 is really important, and the relationship between parents and their 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:34.480 kids is critical. Unfortunately, we know not everybody has a 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:38.959 parent who's engaged, who's involved, or even who is present. 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:43.240 So you know, it's a really tricky one. And how 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:46.240 can we you know, particularly if those teenagers in those 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:51.840 formative years need information as they try and find their 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:54.760 sense in the world and the only place they can 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:58.400 go is the internet, or if they're unsafe and they 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:02.040 need to make connection somewhere people know they're unsafe. By 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:06.080 putting an age ban on, we take away a whole 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:10.360 lot of material and information and good stuff that they 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:15.520 might need. So, yeah, it's such a difficult one and 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:20.800 obviously we're not I'm not in favor of blanket ban 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:24.240 by age even though I understand that it's such a 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:30.440 simple thing as parents and as adults to understand just 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:31.280 do it, you know. 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:33.720 But it's not simple. It's a simple solution. 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:36.120 Yeah, And I mean I'm thinking back, if you tell 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:39.080 sixteen year old Chelsea she's not allowed to do. 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:41.079 Something, that's all she's gonna want to do. 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:47.280 The UK recently rolled out strictly age verification rules, making 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:51.320 people snap real time selfies to access adult sites. Understandably, 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:53.400 a lot of people aren't thrilled about having to scan 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:57.040 their face every time they want to browse something eighteen plus. Now, 0:13:57.120 --> 0:13:59.960 in classic Internet fashion, some teams have found a work 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:04.360 around using Death Stranding's ultra realistic photo mode. Samport of 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:07.560 Bridges aka Norman Readers looks real enough in the game 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:11.120 to trick facial recognition software into letting people through. Players 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:13.760 have even been switching up his facial expressions to dodge 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:15.000 anti spoofing chats. 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.760 And I mean, I see that there are already ways 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:21.440 around it, right. 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:24.560 So in the UK there's been a huge surgeon what's 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:28.160 called VPN app downloads. So that's the thing where you 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:31.080 kind of can trick the Internet into thinking you're logging 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:36.240 on from somewhere else. Right on day one day last week, 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:41.440 half of the top ten free applications in Apple's charts 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:46.120 in the UK were for these services VPN services, and 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:49.440 one app maker told the BBC it had seen a 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:53.920 one thousand, eight hundred percent spike in downloads. 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:57.440 Would this actually work? Is this a workaround? 0:14:58.320 --> 0:14:58.600 Yeah? 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:01.000 Well, I mean some of their research has come out 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:03.920 of the UK said that, you know, sixty eight percent 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:07.680 of UK teens have actually used a VPN to bypass 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:12.120 age gates. So VPN or virtual Private network is where 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:16.560 you sign up to service and it basically anonymizes you 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:19.760 to the Internet. And now look, they have valid uses, 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:23.240 so like if you're sitting you're sitting in a cafe 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:29.840 in somewhere that's perhaps not overly friendly to Western or 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:32.160 where you're from, or you just trying to get on 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:35.240 your bank or something back home. You know, VPN is 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:39.600 a great way of keeping yourself secure and safe, but 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.280 it is also able to be used to bypass these 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:44.360 sorts of things. So you're right, and that's just a 0:15:44.480 --> 0:15:49.400 very simple way around it. There are any number of 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.240 ways that you know, a clever person will work out 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:56.440 how to get around it. And let's be honest, sixteen 0:15:56.520 --> 0:16:00.120 year old Chelsea would have been incredibly smart and she 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:03.080 would have worked it out or found somebody in her 0:16:03.120 --> 0:16:05.400 circle of friends that's done it right and going well, 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:07.600 how do I do this? And you would have all 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:10.040 worked it out. That's an example of I mean, we 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:13.360 don't know whether they're using the VPN to access material 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:16.600 that they shouldn't or access material that they should have 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:19.600 accessed to but can't, so you know, you can't you 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:20.040 can't make that. 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:23.800 It could also be adults just not wanting to their 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:27.360 face on their I mean kinky interests online if it 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:29.000 structs as well. 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:30.800 That's absolutely right, and maybe they want to use their 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:33.840 real name on a site somewhere, so yeah, you've got 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:36.680 that thing as well. But certainly, you know, it's just 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:39.480 a very simple way of you know, working out how 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:41.840 to get around it. And I think that is the 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:45.760 big problem when you look at these types of things 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:50.040 is how easy is it to circumvent? And if you 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:53.760 are removing information and making this blanket band, you are 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:59.520 almost encouraging people to find ways around it rather than 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:01.520 educating them on why. 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:02.000 Is this the case? 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:04.639 Yeah, what should we be doing instead? 0:17:04.800 --> 0:17:08.000 And do you do you see New Zealand going down 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:09.960 the same path or do you reckon that? 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:12.200 We're we'll come up with something better. 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:15.960 New Zealand, there is I mean, we already have Harmful 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:22.680 Communications Regulation and Act. We don't have a digital safety regulator. 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:26.639 We don't have We rely heavily on the Privacy Commission 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:29.560 and the Privacy Commission. They do amazing stuff, amazing work, 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:31.600 but they don't have a lot of teeth when it 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:35.119 comes to some of these things. I am often asked 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:38.040 by parents, you know, what can I do? And also 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:41.600 what's your perspective on this? And as someone in the 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:44.119 tech industry, you know, I understand the difficulty and the 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:48.400 complexity of the issue. As an organization, the Tech Users Association, 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.040 we want people to use digital technology. We want young 0:17:52.080 --> 0:17:56.040 people to understand this. We need more women Maori Pakiha, 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:59.439 you know, Pacifica. We need more people in tech so 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:01.600 they've got our stand how to use this stuff and 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:04.760 live well with it. So putting a blanket band doesn't 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.640 help that either. There are things that you could do, 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:09.840 but I think what we want to do is we're 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:13.119 going to do a technological way around this. We need 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:16.840 to do it here in New Zealand. And bring it 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.280 as close as possible, rather than relying on these big 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:26.000 companies that are trying to drive interaction and engagement through 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:26.800 their algorithms. 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:29.040 Thanks for joining us, Craig, no. 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.520 Problems, Chelsea. 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.959 That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:39.920 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:44.000 at enziherld dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:47.800 produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:48.679 our editor. 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:50.719 I'm Chelsea Daniels. 0:18:51.119 --> 0:18:54.320 Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 0:18:54.320 --> 0:18:58.000 get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 0:18:58.080 --> 0:18:59.520 behind the headlines.