Speaker 1: Kiyota.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast.
Speaker 1: Presented by The New Zealand Herald.
Speaker 2: The days of simply ticking a box to confirm your
Speaker 2: age online are over. The UK has become one of
Speaker 2: the first countries to make it harder for Internet users
Speaker 2: to consume pornography by requiring age of verification measures in
Speaker 2: an effort to prevent under eighteens from viewing explicit content.
Speaker 2: The move has sparked concern though, about users giving even
Speaker 2: more data and personal information to tech companies, and has
Speaker 2: raised questions.
Speaker 1: About whether the process actually works.
Speaker 2: So, with these new laws gaining popularity overseas, could it
Speaker 2: happen here in New Zealand and how do we do
Speaker 2: it properly?
Speaker 1: Today?
Speaker 2: On the Front Technology Users Association of New Zealand CEO
Speaker 2: Craig Young is with us to discuss how to balance
Speaker 2: safety with privacy online. First off, Craig, we're talking about
Speaker 2: this after the UK announced new laws around accessing porn
Speaker 2: last month. Now, for those who may not have seen this,
Speaker 2: can you explain what they actually are?
Speaker 3: So the number of jurisdictions around the world are concerned
Speaker 3: about you know how children getting access to parts of
Speaker 3: the Internet that perhaps their parents and guardians aren't that
Speaker 3: happy about. And so in the UK they pass the
Speaker 3: Online Safety Act, and in this Act it is all
Speaker 3: around access to content on the web, and so the
Speaker 3: rules came into place on the twenty fifth of July,
Speaker 3: particular on pornography, although that's not actually defined in the Act.
Speaker 3: What's happened is that they have put in place or
Speaker 3: anybody that's pining information that could harm could be harmful,
Speaker 3: or could be content that parents don't want their children
Speaker 3: to see, they're put in place age verification. So basically,
Speaker 3: when you log into a website, it's going to ask
Speaker 3: you to verify your age. And no longer will it
Speaker 3: be enough just to tick a box to say I'm
Speaker 3: over eighteen, because as we know, it's one of the
Speaker 3: easiest things to get around. It will have to be
Speaker 3: some formal way of certifying your age. So that's what
Speaker 3: they've put in place.
Speaker 2: So what kind of technology is being used by these
Speaker 2: sites to try and at least get some age verification.
Speaker 3: Well, there's a variety of ways that you can do this.
Speaker 3: I mean, let's start off by just saying age is
Speaker 3: a very blunt tool, particularly if you have sites that
Speaker 3: might have information on it that you want young people
Speaker 3: to get to, but might be a little bit out
Speaker 3: there that some parents aren't overly happy with. But perhaps
Speaker 3: there are some parents who want their kids to see
Speaker 3: and we're not talking pornography here, we're talking about you know, sex,
Speaker 3: sex education, sexualize, you know, learning about sexuality, etc. They
Speaker 3: would be caught by this if by a blunt tool,
Speaker 3: which is age and there are a number of ways
Speaker 3: of doing this. Perhaps the scariest one is facial recognition.
Speaker 2: So that is.
Speaker 3: Where you have to allow the site or the or
Speaker 3: the age verification tool to see your face. There are
Speaker 3: people that you know can full that sort of technology
Speaker 3: because you might look young. But also, you know, do
Speaker 3: you really want some device or some site on the
Speaker 3: internet actually getting a look at your child's face or
Speaker 3: your own face for someone like me and for yourself.
Speaker 3: You know, we are semi public figures. We are on
Speaker 3: the internet, you know, we have LinkedIn pages. But there
Speaker 3: will be adults that really do not want to share
Speaker 3: their their face. There are parents who do not want
Speaker 3: to have their kids on the internet or to be
Speaker 3: captured by these sorts of things. So look, that's probably
Speaker 3: one extreme and then there are a range of others,
Speaker 3: and certainly in the UK they've sort of identified six
Speaker 3: or seven different ways in which you can do this.
Speaker 3: Some of those are things like, you know, using the
Speaker 3: mobile number that you're using on the device. So the
Speaker 3: device you go onto website, the site asks your mobile
Speaker 3: carrier says, this phone number is trying to get onto
Speaker 3: my site? Are they eighteen or under? And so that
Speaker 3: puts the onus on the mobile company, for example. That's
Speaker 3: one way of doing it.
Speaker 2: But another kids have phones under their parents' plans though
Speaker 2: these days.
Speaker 1: Right, that is right?
Speaker 3: And so do you have to find a way around that?
Speaker 3: And so does that mean that the mobile company has
Speaker 3: to ask you when you're putting it in you know,
Speaker 3: what is the age of the person using this phone?
Speaker 3: What is the birth that Look, i haven't signed up
Speaker 3: for a mobile service for a long time, so I'm
Speaker 3: really not sure whether whether I've said that, but they've
Speaker 3: probably got my birth date somewhere.
Speaker 1: We're not sadenesstoring anyone. We've got some measures which are
Speaker 1: there to protect children's I don't see that as a
Speaker 1: free speech issue.
Speaker 3: I see that as a child protection.
Speaker 4: We actually passed the bill in Congress head it up
Speaker 4: by my wife actually, which was to pull bad stuff
Speaker 4: out having to do with children because it is a problem.
Speaker 4: But I cannot imagine how's answering truth social this war
Speaker 4: of a very political and you know, it's been a
Speaker 4: very big success.
Speaker 3: So yeah, So that sort of information that you're now
Speaker 3: having to hand over to a third party around that
Speaker 3: sort of data about you. You know, we all know
Speaker 3: that the way people get access to our data is
Speaker 3: by knowing certain things about us, So like our name,
Speaker 3: maybe a passport number, maybe a birth dated birth. You know,
Speaker 3: a lot of the time it particularly early on, you know,
Speaker 3: to date a birth that you use to validate yourself
Speaker 3: on a site that's been hacked, you know, if you're
Speaker 3: giving it over, So there has to be new and
Speaker 3: different ways of doing it. So that's another way. Another
Speaker 3: way that could be done is through adult filters, where
Speaker 3: you're doing it through your internet connection, or it could
Speaker 3: be using an age verification tool, which is a completely
Speaker 3: different website or app that you validate your age. So
Speaker 3: you might have to insert you might have to send
Speaker 3: them a picture of your passport or a birth certificate,
Speaker 3: some really critical piece of information which they can then
Speaker 3: certify so that when you go to a site, the
Speaker 3: site can then query the third party. And basically what
Speaker 3: they do is they go is this person eating or over?
Speaker 3: They're not asking who is this person? What's their birthdate
Speaker 3: or any like that. They're just saying is this person
Speaker 3: And if the age certification goes yes, then you let it.
Speaker 3: If it says no, you're not. So it's a pretty
Speaker 3: binary answer, right. The question is that third party holding
Speaker 3: on to your data? Are they keeping hold of your
Speaker 3: passport copy? Are they keeping hold your best are they
Speaker 3: holding your birth date for example? And there is a
Speaker 3: variety of these. Some of them we don't know, and
Speaker 3: some of them they're saying, yes, we're only going to
Speaker 3: look at that data once set it up in our
Speaker 3: system and then delete it. I don't know about you.
Speaker 3: Some people I might really might be happy about having
Speaker 3: my data, perhaps my airline, but not sure about some
Speaker 3: of these other organizations that are doing this. So you know,
Speaker 3: there's a trust level you have to find. And so
Speaker 3: what the UKB said is off comm have said, which
Speaker 3: is the regulator in the UK, here's seven such or
Speaker 3: seven ways that you can use. And then the user,
Speaker 3: which is some like US can decide when we go
Speaker 3: to a site, if they ask us for something, we
Speaker 3: can go no, I'm not prepared to give you that information,
Speaker 3: so you won't have access. Or it might be they
Speaker 3: use a different certain way of certifying your age. You go, yep,
Speaker 3: I'm happy with that. I'll get access to it. So yeah,
Speaker 3: there's a range of ways of doing it.
Speaker 2: The UK isn't the only country talking about this though and.
Speaker 1: Implementing laws like this. Half of the US.
Speaker 2: States now require age verification, and the EU is also
Speaker 2: rolling out laws across the block.
Speaker 1: Why is this suddenly trending?
Speaker 3: I think what we're seeing is a recognition that the
Speaker 3: way our kids, in particular those that have grown up
Speaker 3: in the in the time of smartphones, the way they're
Speaker 3: accessing the Internet, and the way the sites, particularly you know,
Speaker 3: social media sites are controlling using algorithms, you know, the
Speaker 3: way they hook people in and keep them in. I mean,
Speaker 3: who of us, even at my advanced age, hasn't got
Speaker 3: stuck at some point going down rabbit holes or scrolling reels.
Speaker 3: You know, as much as we think we're in control,
Speaker 3: you know, there are things that all this looks interesting,
Speaker 3: This looks interesting, This looks interesting and it just hooks
Speaker 3: you in. And so what we're saying is this is
Speaker 3: not working for our kids. This is not a positive
Speaker 3: influence on them. And it's that's I think, you know,
Speaker 3: we are starting to think we've got to do something,
Speaker 3: and I think that's where it really comes down to politicians, right,
Speaker 3: So we do we advocate the politicians. Politicians like to
Speaker 3: see things in black and white. You know, we want
Speaker 3: to do something, so we want to be seen to
Speaker 3: be doing something. What can we do all the easiest
Speaker 3: thing we can do is put an age limit on it.
Speaker 3: And obviously in the States, in the US, you know,
Speaker 3: there is also a geopolitical move to less state control
Speaker 3: and more parental control. So you start to see that
Speaker 3: flow through the European unions different they are allowing each
Speaker 3: of their countries to implement their own national bands, but
Speaker 3: they're also working together to come up with an EU
Speaker 3: age verification app, so their own app, so that has
Speaker 3: all sorts of implications with it. And then of course
Speaker 3: a cross in Australia, this is probably the one that's
Speaker 3: closest to us. They are probably putting in the world's
Speaker 3: strictest laws around media, around age restrictions, so from December,
Speaker 3: social media platforms that they designate the government designates age
Speaker 3: restricted must take reasonable steps to prevent children under sixteen
Speaker 3: from creating accounts on their services. So it is a
Speaker 3: you know, a broad band. They've defined it as Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat,
Speaker 3: x TikTok. They weren't going to do YouTube, but they
Speaker 3: are now they've brought that into that. So basically it
Speaker 3: doesn't prevent children from sixteen under sixteen viewing it, but
Speaker 3: they won't be able to have their own accounts. So
Speaker 3: that's the way they're doing it. But that's pretty tough
Speaker 3: and you can be fined up to fifty million Australian
Speaker 3: dollars for not complying with the new rule, so you know,
Speaker 3: they are pretty stiff penalties.
Speaker 2: What I mean when I see these debates going on,
Speaker 2: I mean I don't have children, and my friends don't
Speaker 2: have children of the age to be able to access
Speaker 2: these things, right, But I think where is the level
Speaker 2: of parental responsibility when it comes to kids on social media,
Speaker 2: kids being able to get access to a computer, kids
Speaker 2: seeing porn.
Speaker 3: It's a really good question because it pulls into a
Speaker 3: question a couple of things. One is, you know how
Speaker 3: much control parents can have. There are questions that you
Speaker 3: have to ask around at, particularly once they get into
Speaker 3: that teenage stage. You know, as a blanket ban on
Speaker 3: anything somebody thinks is harmful, and that's the problem. Someone
Speaker 3: has to definitely define harmful. Is that a good way
Speaker 3: of helping our young people understand their own selves and
Speaker 3: their lives and how to live in this current world?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 3: I think you you know, somewhere in their parental control
Speaker 3: is really important, and the relationship between parents and their
Speaker 3: kids is critical. Unfortunately, we know not everybody has a
Speaker 3: parent who's engaged, who's involved, or even who is present.
Speaker 3: So you know, it's a really tricky one. And how
Speaker 3: can we you know, particularly if those teenagers in those
Speaker 3: formative years need information as they try and find their
Speaker 3: sense in the world and the only place they can
Speaker 3: go is the internet, or if they're unsafe and they
Speaker 3: need to make connection somewhere people know they're unsafe. By
Speaker 3: putting an age ban on, we take away a whole
Speaker 3: lot of material and information and good stuff that they
Speaker 3: might need. So, yeah, it's such a difficult one and
Speaker 3: obviously we're not I'm not in favor of blanket ban
Speaker 3: by age even though I understand that it's such a
Speaker 3: simple thing as parents and as adults to understand just
Speaker 3: do it, you know.
Speaker 1: But it's not simple. It's a simple solution.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean I'm thinking back, if you tell
Speaker 2: sixteen year old Chelsea she's not allowed to do.
Speaker 1: Something, that's all she's gonna want to do.
Speaker 5: The UK recently rolled out strictly age verification rules, making
Speaker 5: people snap real time selfies to access adult sites. Understandably,
Speaker 5: a lot of people aren't thrilled about having to scan
Speaker 5: their face every time they want to browse something eighteen plus. Now,
Speaker 5: in classic Internet fashion, some teams have found a work
Speaker 5: around using Death Stranding's ultra realistic photo mode. Samport of
Speaker 5: Bridges aka Norman Readers looks real enough in the game
Speaker 5: to trick facial recognition software into letting people through. Players
Speaker 5: have even been switching up his facial expressions to dodge
Speaker 5: anti spoofing chats.
Speaker 1: And I mean, I see that there are already ways
Speaker 1: around it, right.
Speaker 2: So in the UK there's been a huge surgeon what's
Speaker 2: called VPN app downloads. So that's the thing where you
Speaker 2: kind of can trick the Internet into thinking you're logging
Speaker 2: on from somewhere else. Right on day one day last week,
Speaker 2: half of the top ten free applications in Apple's charts
Speaker 2: in the UK were for these services VPN services, and
Speaker 2: one app maker told the BBC it had seen a
Speaker 2: one thousand, eight hundred percent spike in downloads.
Speaker 1: Would this actually work? Is this a workaround?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Well, I mean some of their research has come out
Speaker 3: of the UK said that, you know, sixty eight percent
Speaker 3: of UK teens have actually used a VPN to bypass
Speaker 3: age gates. So VPN or virtual Private network is where
Speaker 3: you sign up to service and it basically anonymizes you
Speaker 3: to the Internet. And now look, they have valid uses,
Speaker 3: so like if you're sitting you're sitting in a cafe
Speaker 3: in somewhere that's perhaps not overly friendly to Western or
Speaker 3: where you're from, or you just trying to get on
Speaker 3: your bank or something back home. You know, VPN is
Speaker 3: a great way of keeping yourself secure and safe, but
Speaker 3: it is also able to be used to bypass these
Speaker 3: sorts of things. So you're right, and that's just a
Speaker 3: very simple way around it. There are any number of
Speaker 3: ways that you know, a clever person will work out
Speaker 3: how to get around it. And let's be honest, sixteen
Speaker 3: year old Chelsea would have been incredibly smart and she
Speaker 3: would have worked it out or found somebody in her
Speaker 3: circle of friends that's done it right and going well,
Speaker 3: how do I do this? And you would have all
Speaker 3: worked it out. That's an example of I mean, we
Speaker 3: don't know whether they're using the VPN to access material
Speaker 3: that they shouldn't or access material that they should have
Speaker 3: accessed to but can't, so you know, you can't you
Speaker 3: can't make that.
Speaker 2: It could also be adults just not wanting to their
Speaker 2: face on their I mean kinky interests online if it
Speaker 2: structs as well.
Speaker 3: That's absolutely right, and maybe they want to use their
Speaker 3: real name on a site somewhere, so yeah, you've got
Speaker 3: that thing as well. But certainly, you know, it's just
Speaker 3: a very simple way of you know, working out how
Speaker 3: to get around it. And I think that is the
Speaker 3: big problem when you look at these types of things
Speaker 3: is how easy is it to circumvent? And if you
Speaker 3: are removing information and making this blanket band, you are
Speaker 3: almost encouraging people to find ways around it rather than
Speaker 3: educating them on why.
Speaker 2: Is this the case?
Speaker 1: Yeah, what should we be doing instead?
Speaker 2: And do you do you see New Zealand going down
Speaker 2: the same path or do you reckon that?
Speaker 1: We're we'll come up with something better.
Speaker 3: New Zealand, there is I mean, we already have Harmful
Speaker 3: Communications Regulation and Act. We don't have a digital safety regulator.
Speaker 3: We don't have We rely heavily on the Privacy Commission
Speaker 3: and the Privacy Commission. They do amazing stuff, amazing work,
Speaker 3: but they don't have a lot of teeth when it
Speaker 3: comes to some of these things. I am often asked
Speaker 3: by parents, you know, what can I do? And also
Speaker 3: what's your perspective on this? And as someone in the
Speaker 3: tech industry, you know, I understand the difficulty and the
Speaker 3: complexity of the issue. As an organization, the Tech Users Association,
Speaker 3: we want people to use digital technology. We want young
Speaker 3: people to understand this. We need more women Maori Pakiha,
Speaker 3: you know, Pacifica. We need more people in tech so
Speaker 3: they've got our stand how to use this stuff and
Speaker 3: live well with it. So putting a blanket band doesn't
Speaker 3: help that either. There are things that you could do,
Speaker 3: but I think what we want to do is we're
Speaker 3: going to do a technological way around this. We need
Speaker 3: to do it here in New Zealand. And bring it
Speaker 3: as close as possible, rather than relying on these big
Speaker 3: companies that are trying to drive interaction and engagement through
Speaker 3: their algorithms.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Craig, no.
Speaker 3: Problems, Chelsea.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 2: at enziherld dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is
Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also
Speaker 2: our editor.
Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look
Speaker 2: behind the headlines.