1 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:05,920 Speaker 1: Kiyota. 2 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 2: daily podcast. 4 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: Presented by The New Zealand Herald. 5 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 2: The days of simply ticking a box to confirm your 6 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,520 Speaker 2: age online are over. The UK has become one of 7 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 2: the first countries to make it harder for Internet users 8 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 2: to consume pornography by requiring age of verification measures in 9 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,599 Speaker 2: an effort to prevent under eighteens from viewing explicit content. 10 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 2: The move has sparked concern though, about users giving even 11 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:45,839 Speaker 2: more data and personal information to tech companies, and has 12 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 2: raised questions. 13 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: About whether the process actually works. 14 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 2: So, with these new laws gaining popularity overseas, could it 15 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 2: happen here in New Zealand and how do we do 16 00:00:57,880 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 2: it properly? 17 00:00:59,200 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: Today? 18 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 2: On the Front Technology Users Association of New Zealand CEO 19 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,720 Speaker 2: Craig Young is with us to discuss how to balance 20 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 2: safety with privacy online. First off, Craig, we're talking about 21 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 2: this after the UK announced new laws around accessing porn 22 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,240 Speaker 2: last month. Now, for those who may not have seen this, 23 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 2: can you explain what they actually are? 24 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 3: So the number of jurisdictions around the world are concerned 25 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,399 Speaker 3: about you know how children getting access to parts of 26 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 3: the Internet that perhaps their parents and guardians aren't that 27 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 3: happy about. And so in the UK they pass the 28 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 3: Online Safety Act, and in this Act it is all 29 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 3: around access to content on the web, and so the 30 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 3: rules came into place on the twenty fifth of July, 31 00:01:52,320 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 3: particular on pornography, although that's not actually defined in the Act. 32 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 3: What's happened is that they have put in place or 33 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 3: anybody that's pining information that could harm could be harmful, 34 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,279 Speaker 3: or could be content that parents don't want their children 35 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 3: to see, they're put in place age verification. So basically, 36 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 3: when you log into a website, it's going to ask 37 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 3: you to verify your age. And no longer will it 38 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 3: be enough just to tick a box to say I'm 39 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 3: over eighteen, because as we know, it's one of the 40 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 3: easiest things to get around. It will have to be 41 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 3: some formal way of certifying your age. So that's what 42 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 3: they've put in place. 43 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 2: So what kind of technology is being used by these 44 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 2: sites to try and at least get some age verification. 45 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 3: Well, there's a variety of ways that you can do this. 46 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 3: I mean, let's start off by just saying age is 47 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 3: a very blunt tool, particularly if you have sites that 48 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 3: might have information on it that you want young people 49 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 3: to get to, but might be a little bit out 50 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 3: there that some parents aren't overly happy with. But perhaps 51 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 3: there are some parents who want their kids to see 52 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 3: and we're not talking pornography here, we're talking about you know, sex, 53 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 3: sex education, sexualize, you know, learning about sexuality, etc. They 54 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 3: would be caught by this if by a blunt tool, 55 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 3: which is age and there are a number of ways 56 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:18,240 Speaker 3: of doing this. Perhaps the scariest one is facial recognition. 57 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 2: So that is. 58 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 3: Where you have to allow the site or the or 59 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 3: the age verification tool to see your face. There are 60 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 3: people that you know can full that sort of technology 61 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 3: because you might look young. But also, you know, do 62 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 3: you really want some device or some site on the 63 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 3: internet actually getting a look at your child's face or 64 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 3: your own face for someone like me and for yourself. 65 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 3: You know, we are semi public figures. We are on 66 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 3: the internet, you know, we have LinkedIn pages. But there 67 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 3: will be adults that really do not want to share 68 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 3: their their face. There are parents who do not want 69 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 3: to have their kids on the internet or to be 70 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 3: captured by these sorts of things. So look, that's probably 71 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 3: one extreme and then there are a range of others, 72 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 3: and certainly in the UK they've sort of identified six 73 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 3: or seven different ways in which you can do this. 74 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 3: Some of those are things like, you know, using the 75 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 3: mobile number that you're using on the device. So the 76 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 3: device you go onto website, the site asks your mobile 77 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 3: carrier says, this phone number is trying to get onto 78 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 3: my site? Are they eighteen or under? And so that 79 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 3: puts the onus on the mobile company, for example. That's 80 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 3: one way of doing it. 81 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 2: But another kids have phones under their parents' plans though 82 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 2: these days. 83 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:44,599 Speaker 1: Right, that is right? 84 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 3: And so do you have to find a way around that? 85 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 3: And so does that mean that the mobile company has 86 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 3: to ask you when you're putting it in you know, 87 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 3: what is the age of the person using this phone? 88 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 3: What is the birth that Look, i haven't signed up 89 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 3: for a mobile service for a long time, so I'm 90 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 3: really not sure whether whether I've said that, but they've 91 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 3: probably got my birth date somewhere. 92 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: We're not sadenesstoring anyone. We've got some measures which are 93 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,719 Speaker 1: there to protect children's I don't see that as a 94 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 1: free speech issue. 95 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 3: I see that as a child protection. 96 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 4: We actually passed the bill in Congress head it up 97 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 4: by my wife actually, which was to pull bad stuff 98 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 4: out having to do with children because it is a problem. 99 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 4: But I cannot imagine how's answering truth social this war 100 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 4: of a very political and you know, it's been a 101 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 4: very big success. 102 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 3: So yeah, So that sort of information that you're now 103 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 3: having to hand over to a third party around that 104 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 3: sort of data about you. You know, we all know 105 00:05:44,000 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 3: that the way people get access to our data is 106 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 3: by knowing certain things about us, So like our name, 107 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 3: maybe a passport number, maybe a birth dated birth. You know, 108 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,760 Speaker 3: a lot of the time it particularly early on, you know, 109 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 3: to date a birth that you use to validate yourself 110 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 3: on a site that's been hacked, you know, if you're 111 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 3: giving it over, So there has to be new and 112 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 3: different ways of doing it. So that's another way. Another 113 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 3: way that could be done is through adult filters, where 114 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 3: you're doing it through your internet connection, or it could 115 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 3: be using an age verification tool, which is a completely 116 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 3: different website or app that you validate your age. So 117 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 3: you might have to insert you might have to send 118 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 3: them a picture of your passport or a birth certificate, 119 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 3: some really critical piece of information which they can then 120 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 3: certify so that when you go to a site, the 121 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 3: site can then query the third party. And basically what 122 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 3: they do is they go is this person eating or over? 123 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,920 Speaker 3: They're not asking who is this person? What's their birthdate 124 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 3: or any like that. They're just saying is this person 125 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 3: And if the age certification goes yes, then you let it. 126 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 3: If it says no, you're not. So it's a pretty 127 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 3: binary answer, right. The question is that third party holding 128 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 3: on to your data? Are they keeping hold of your 129 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 3: passport copy? Are they keeping hold your best are they 130 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 3: holding your birth date for example? And there is a 131 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 3: variety of these. Some of them we don't know, and 132 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,480 Speaker 3: some of them they're saying, yes, we're only going to 133 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 3: look at that data once set it up in our 134 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 3: system and then delete it. I don't know about you. 135 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 3: Some people I might really might be happy about having 136 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 3: my data, perhaps my airline, but not sure about some 137 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 3: of these other organizations that are doing this. So you know, 138 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 3: there's a trust level you have to find. And so 139 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 3: what the UKB said is off comm have said, which 140 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 3: is the regulator in the UK, here's seven such or 141 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 3: seven ways that you can use. And then the user, 142 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 3: which is some like US can decide when we go 143 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 3: to a site, if they ask us for something, we 144 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 3: can go no, I'm not prepared to give you that information, 145 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 3: so you won't have access. Or it might be they 146 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 3: use a different certain way of certifying your age. You go, yep, 147 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 3: I'm happy with that. I'll get access to it. So yeah, 148 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 3: there's a range of ways of doing it. 149 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 2: The UK isn't the only country talking about this though and. 150 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: Implementing laws like this. Half of the US. 151 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 2: States now require age verification, and the EU is also 152 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 2: rolling out laws across the block. 153 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: Why is this suddenly trending? 154 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 3: I think what we're seeing is a recognition that the 155 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,839 Speaker 3: way our kids, in particular those that have grown up 156 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 3: in the in the time of smartphones, the way they're 157 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:02,319 Speaker 3: accessing the Internet, and the way the sites, particularly you know, 158 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 3: social media sites are controlling using algorithms, you know, the 159 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,560 Speaker 3: way they hook people in and keep them in. I mean, 160 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 3: who of us, even at my advanced age, hasn't got 161 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 3: stuck at some point going down rabbit holes or scrolling reels. 162 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:22,199 Speaker 3: You know, as much as we think we're in control, 163 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 3: you know, there are things that all this looks interesting, 164 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 3: This looks interesting, This looks interesting and it just hooks 165 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 3: you in. And so what we're saying is this is 166 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 3: not working for our kids. This is not a positive 167 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 3: influence on them. And it's that's I think, you know, 168 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 3: we are starting to think we've got to do something, 169 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 3: and I think that's where it really comes down to politicians, right, 170 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 3: So we do we advocate the politicians. Politicians like to 171 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 3: see things in black and white. You know, we want 172 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 3: to do something, so we want to be seen to 173 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 3: be doing something. What can we do all the easiest 174 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 3: thing we can do is put an age limit on it. 175 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 3: And obviously in the States, in the US, you know, 176 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 3: there is also a geopolitical move to less state control 177 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 3: and more parental control. So you start to see that 178 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,839 Speaker 3: flow through the European unions different they are allowing each 179 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 3: of their countries to implement their own national bands, but 180 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 3: they're also working together to come up with an EU 181 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 3: age verification app, so their own app, so that has 182 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 3: all sorts of implications with it. And then of course 183 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 3: a cross in Australia, this is probably the one that's 184 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 3: closest to us. They are probably putting in the world's 185 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 3: strictest laws around media, around age restrictions, so from December, 186 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 3: social media platforms that they designate the government designates age 187 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 3: restricted must take reasonable steps to prevent children under sixteen 188 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:45,719 Speaker 3: from creating accounts on their services. So it is a 189 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:51,839 Speaker 3: you know, a broad band. They've defined it as Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, 190 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 3: x TikTok. They weren't going to do YouTube, but they 191 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,839 Speaker 3: are now they've brought that into that. So basically it 192 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 3: doesn't prevent children from sixteen under sixteen viewing it, but 193 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 3: they won't be able to have their own accounts. So 194 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 3: that's the way they're doing it. But that's pretty tough 195 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,079 Speaker 3: and you can be fined up to fifty million Australian 196 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 3: dollars for not complying with the new rule, so you know, 197 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:17,559 Speaker 3: they are pretty stiff penalties. 198 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 2: What I mean when I see these debates going on, 199 00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 2: I mean I don't have children, and my friends don't 200 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 2: have children of the age to be able to access 201 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 2: these things, right, But I think where is the level 202 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 2: of parental responsibility when it comes to kids on social media, 203 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 2: kids being able to get access to a computer, kids 204 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 2: seeing porn. 205 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 3: It's a really good question because it pulls into a 206 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 3: question a couple of things. One is, you know how 207 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 3: much control parents can have. There are questions that you 208 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 3: have to ask around at, particularly once they get into 209 00:11:54,160 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 3: that teenage stage. You know, as a blanket ban on 210 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 3: anything somebody thinks is harmful, and that's the problem. Someone 211 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 3: has to definitely define harmful. Is that a good way 212 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 3: of helping our young people understand their own selves and 213 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 3: their lives and how to live in this current world? 214 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:20,439 Speaker 2: Now? 215 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 3: I think you you know, somewhere in their parental control 216 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 3: is really important, and the relationship between parents and their 217 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 3: kids is critical. Unfortunately, we know not everybody has a 218 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,959 Speaker 3: parent who's engaged, who's involved, or even who is present. 219 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 3: So you know, it's a really tricky one. And how 220 00:12:43,240 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 3: can we you know, particularly if those teenagers in those 221 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 3: formative years need information as they try and find their 222 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 3: sense in the world and the only place they can 223 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 3: go is the internet, or if they're unsafe and they 224 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 3: need to make connection somewhere people know they're unsafe. By 225 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 3: putting an age ban on, we take away a whole 226 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 3: lot of material and information and good stuff that they 227 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 3: might need. So, yeah, it's such a difficult one and 228 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 3: obviously we're not I'm not in favor of blanket ban 229 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 3: by age even though I understand that it's such a 230 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 3: simple thing as parents and as adults to understand just 231 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 3: do it, you know. 232 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: But it's not simple. It's a simple solution. 233 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean I'm thinking back, if you tell 234 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 2: sixteen year old Chelsea she's not allowed to do. 235 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 1: Something, that's all she's gonna want to do. 236 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 5: The UK recently rolled out strictly age verification rules, making 237 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 5: people snap real time selfies to access adult sites. Understandably, 238 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 5: a lot of people aren't thrilled about having to scan 239 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 5: their face every time they want to browse something eighteen plus. Now, 240 00:13:57,120 --> 00:13:59,960 Speaker 5: in classic Internet fashion, some teams have found a work 241 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 5: around using Death Stranding's ultra realistic photo mode. Samport of 242 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 5: Bridges aka Norman Readers looks real enough in the game 243 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 5: to trick facial recognition software into letting people through. Players 244 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 5: have even been switching up his facial expressions to dodge 245 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 5: anti spoofing chats. 246 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: And I mean, I see that there are already ways 247 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: around it, right. 248 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 2: So in the UK there's been a huge surgeon what's 249 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 2: called VPN app downloads. So that's the thing where you 250 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 2: kind of can trick the Internet into thinking you're logging 251 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 2: on from somewhere else. Right on day one day last week, 252 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 2: half of the top ten free applications in Apple's charts 253 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 2: in the UK were for these services VPN services, and 254 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: one app maker told the BBC it had seen a 255 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 2: one thousand, eight hundred percent spike in downloads. 256 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: Would this actually work? Is this a workaround? 257 00:14:58,320 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 4: Yeah? 258 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 3: Well, I mean some of their research has come out 259 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 3: of the UK said that, you know, sixty eight percent 260 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 3: of UK teens have actually used a VPN to bypass 261 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 3: age gates. So VPN or virtual Private network is where 262 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 3: you sign up to service and it basically anonymizes you 263 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:19,760 Speaker 3: to the Internet. And now look, they have valid uses, 264 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 3: so like if you're sitting you're sitting in a cafe 265 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 3: in somewhere that's perhaps not overly friendly to Western or 266 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 3: where you're from, or you just trying to get on 267 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 3: your bank or something back home. You know, VPN is 268 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 3: a great way of keeping yourself secure and safe, but 269 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 3: it is also able to be used to bypass these 270 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 3: sorts of things. So you're right, and that's just a 271 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 3: very simple way around it. There are any number of 272 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 3: ways that you know, a clever person will work out 273 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 3: how to get around it. And let's be honest, sixteen 274 00:15:56,520 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 3: year old Chelsea would have been incredibly smart and she 275 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 3: would have worked it out or found somebody in her 276 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 3: circle of friends that's done it right and going well, 277 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 3: how do I do this? And you would have all 278 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 3: worked it out. That's an example of I mean, we 279 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 3: don't know whether they're using the VPN to access material 280 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 3: that they shouldn't or access material that they should have 281 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 3: accessed to but can't, so you know, you can't you 282 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 3: can't make that. 283 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 2: It could also be adults just not wanting to their 284 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 2: face on their I mean kinky interests online if it 285 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 2: structs as well. 286 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 3: That's absolutely right, and maybe they want to use their 287 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 3: real name on a site somewhere, so yeah, you've got 288 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 3: that thing as well. But certainly, you know, it's just 289 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 3: a very simple way of you know, working out how 290 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:41,840 Speaker 3: to get around it. And I think that is the 291 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 3: big problem when you look at these types of things 292 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 3: is how easy is it to circumvent? And if you 293 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 3: are removing information and making this blanket band, you are 294 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 3: almost encouraging people to find ways around it rather than 295 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 3: educating them on why. 296 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 2: Is this the case? 297 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: Yeah, what should we be doing instead? 298 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 2: And do you do you see New Zealand going down 299 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 2: the same path or do you reckon that? 300 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 1: We're we'll come up with something better. 301 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 3: New Zealand, there is I mean, we already have Harmful 302 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:22,680 Speaker 3: Communications Regulation and Act. We don't have a digital safety regulator. 303 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,639 Speaker 3: We don't have We rely heavily on the Privacy Commission 304 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 3: and the Privacy Commission. They do amazing stuff, amazing work, 305 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 3: but they don't have a lot of teeth when it 306 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:35,119 Speaker 3: comes to some of these things. I am often asked 307 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 3: by parents, you know, what can I do? And also 308 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 3: what's your perspective on this? And as someone in the 309 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 3: tech industry, you know, I understand the difficulty and the 310 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 3: complexity of the issue. As an organization, the Tech Users Association, 311 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 3: we want people to use digital technology. We want young 312 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 3: people to understand this. We need more women Maori Pakiha, 313 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 3: you know, Pacifica. We need more people in tech so 314 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 3: they've got our stand how to use this stuff and 315 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 3: live well with it. So putting a blanket band doesn't 316 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 3: help that either. There are things that you could do, 317 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 3: but I think what we want to do is we're 318 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 3: going to do a technological way around this. We need 319 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 3: to do it here in New Zealand. And bring it 320 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 3: as close as possible, rather than relying on these big 321 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 3: companies that are trying to drive interaction and engagement through 322 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 3: their algorithms. 323 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Craig, no. 324 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 3: Problems, Chelsea. 325 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,959 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 326 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 327 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 2: at enziherld dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is 328 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 2: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also 329 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 2: our editor. 330 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:50,719 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 331 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 2: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 332 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 333 00:18:58,080 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 2: behind the headlines.