1
00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,680
Speaker 1: Should MPs have to use the public health system. That

2
00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:05,960
Speaker 1: is a challenge from a group of health workers who

3
00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,440
Speaker 1: are calling out politicians saying they should have to rely

4
00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:12,039
Speaker 1: on the systems that they reside over so they can

5
00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:14,880
Speaker 1: personally experience the consequences of any decision they make.

6
00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:15,400
Speaker 2: So.

7
00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:18,760
Speaker 1: Rob Campbell is the former chair of Tafata Order Health

8
00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,920
Speaker 1: New Zealand, and he comes to the program now good

9
00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:23,520
Speaker 1: one is here. Rob, thank you once again for getting

10
00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:24,200
Speaker 1: up early for us.

11
00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:27,320
Speaker 2: Marina Andrew, it's not early for some of us.

12
00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,800
Speaker 1: Is good on you? Is it fair? Is it fair

13
00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,400
Speaker 1: to force MPs or to ask MPs to use the

14
00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:35,320
Speaker 1: public health system?

15
00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:38,800
Speaker 2: Look at they're not going to do it anymore than

16
00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,159
Speaker 2: they're going to turn down their next pay rise. But

17
00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,840
Speaker 2: the call that's been made, I think does highlight that

18
00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:49,839
Speaker 2: not just MPs, but many people do live in a

19
00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:52,600
Speaker 2: bit of a cocoon from the major problems of our

20
00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,720
Speaker 2: public health system because they've been able to opt out

21
00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:59,280
Speaker 2: to a large extent through the insurance that they hold.

22
00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,720
Speaker 2: About of New Zealanders do hold health insurance, so it's

23
00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:06,319
Speaker 2: no surprise that many MPs do. So it highlights the

24
00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,240
Speaker 2: fact that if you don't have the problem, you probably

25
00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:11,760
Speaker 2: are not going to effectively deal with the problem. So

26
00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,040
Speaker 2: I support the call to that extent. Is it practical?

27
00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,160
Speaker 2: Don't think so. But it highlights the point that people

28
00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:22,560
Speaker 2: are living in a cocoon and most people, still a

29
00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,600
Speaker 2: slight majority I believe, are fully reliant on the public system.

30
00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:28,920
Speaker 1: Well, did the open letter writers not go far enough?

31
00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:32,160
Speaker 1: You know, because senior bureaucrats in the public service system,

32
00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,360
Speaker 1: should they also have been asked to rely solely on

33
00:01:35,400 --> 00:01:37,880
Speaker 1: the public system since they are making decisions? Should the

34
00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,959
Speaker 1: opposition also been included in their call?

35
00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:43,480
Speaker 2: Oh? Look, I think it's certainly the call should have

36
00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:45,679
Speaker 2: been and I believe it was directed to all MPs,

37
00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:47,760
Speaker 2: And it made me think. I wondered, you know, when

38
00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:49,680
Speaker 2: I was on to FATO or how many of the

39
00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,880
Speaker 2: senior staff or other directors held health insurance, because I'd

40
00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,440
Speaker 2: be very disappointed if they did. But when I think

41
00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:57,480
Speaker 2: about it, it's quite possible they did. And there's no

42
00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:01,520
Speaker 2: question that your own circumstance as AULTI your viewers things.

43
00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,520
Speaker 2: So I think that that point is very valid and

44
00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,520
Speaker 2: it's a problem for the public health, for the public

45
00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:08,720
Speaker 2: health system absolutely.

46
00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:11,880
Speaker 1: In fact, that was my next question into people at health.

47
00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,480
Speaker 1: New Zealand use private healthcare. You can't really answer it,

48
00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:15,680
Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure they did.

49
00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:16,320
Speaker 2: So.

50
00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:19,160
Speaker 1: Look, look, here's the thing. The private system works in

51
00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:23,000
Speaker 1: conjunction with the public system, and together they confront the

52
00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:25,720
Speaker 1: problems that are facing New Zealanders in terms of their

53
00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:30,120
Speaker 1: health care. The private care system is beneficial. Should it

54
00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:31,200
Speaker 1: be demonized like this?

55
00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:34,919
Speaker 2: There's no point in demonizing it. I fully understand I

56
00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,320
Speaker 2: don't have health insurance, I should say, but I fully

57
00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:43,680
Speaker 2: understand why many people do, and for a long time

58
00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:45,520
Speaker 2: a large part of our health service. In fact, even

59
00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,440
Speaker 2: right from the GP, we have a privatized health service system.

60
00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,000
Speaker 2: We don't have a fully public system. We may think

61
00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,480
Speaker 2: we want one, but we don't have it, and so

62
00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,760
Speaker 2: the private system is an important part of it. But

63
00:02:56,919 --> 00:02:58,440
Speaker 2: I think one of the issues we've got in New

64
00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:00,920
Speaker 2: Zealand at the moment is that it doesn't help to

65
00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:04,160
Speaker 2: demonize the public system. The public system does a huge

66
00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:06,840
Speaker 2: number of good things, which the health workers have made

67
00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,680
Speaker 2: this call fully understand, and many people get fantastic service

68
00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,239
Speaker 2: from the public system. So it's public system actually needs

69
00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:17,160
Speaker 2: some love rather than punishment. And I think if I

70
00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,720
Speaker 2: was the boss of a health insurance company. Every time

71
00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:23,000
Speaker 2: to far to Wora got attacked or the public health

72
00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,520
Speaker 2: system got attacked, I think that's good. That's another few

73
00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:28,040
Speaker 2: people coming in the front door of my business. So

74
00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:30,360
Speaker 2: we do have to be careful about that. We don't

75
00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,760
Speaker 2: want to demonize either side of it. But the truth is,

76
00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,360
Speaker 2: if you're making big decisions for something like a public

77
00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,760
Speaker 2: health system and you yourself are insulated from it, it

78
00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:43,280
Speaker 2: will impact your decision making. There's no way it doesn't.

79
00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:44,760
Speaker 1: You had to work with these people, You had to

80
00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,240
Speaker 1: work with these senior ministers. Are they, as these open

81
00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,520
Speaker 1: meta writers say, out of touch with just how dire

82
00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:52,960
Speaker 1: the situation is in the health system is? Are they

83
00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,400
Speaker 1: in fact insulated perform it or did they understand?

84
00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,120
Speaker 2: Oh, look, there's no question that they're insulated from it

85
00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:01,040
Speaker 2: by the very nature of their job, the way they

86
00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,240
Speaker 2: do their job, what they've paid, what they're surrounded by,

87
00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,880
Speaker 2: the advice that they've got in their ears all the time.

88
00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,160
Speaker 2: There's no question that they're isolated. Then it is a

89
00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:13,800
Speaker 2: problem for our representative democracy. When people are elected. On

90
00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,360
Speaker 2: the day they're elected, they probably do represent some part

91
00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:19,840
Speaker 2: of the electorate, but pretty quickly once they get into

92
00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:22,240
Speaker 2: that hot ass atmosphere down there in Wellington. They do

93
00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:23,840
Speaker 2: lose touch, there's no question of it.

94
00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:25,960
Speaker 1: Rob, I thank you for your time. There's Rob Campbell,

95
00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:28,480
Speaker 1: the former Health New Zealand chair.

96
00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:32,279
Speaker 2: For more from Early Edition with Ryan Bridge. Listen live

97
00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,400
Speaker 2: to News Talks. It'd be from five am weekdays, or

98
00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:37,360
Speaker 2: follow the podcast on iHeartRadio