1 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: Hi. 2 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 2: I'm Liam Dan, New Zealand Herald's Business editor at Large, 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 2: and welcome to this episode of Money Talks. This is 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 2: a podcast about money, but we're not going to tell 5 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 2: you how to get rich, and we're not going to 6 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 2: try and pick the next interest rate move. In this series, 7 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 2: I'll be talking to interesting New Zealanders about how money 8 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 2: has shaped their lives and what they've learned over the years. 9 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 2: For today's podcast and for the last episode of the season, 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 2: I'm joined by former Prime Minister and Finance Minister Sir 11 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 2: Bill English, So Bill Cura, and welcome to Money Talks. 12 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: How are you good? Good? 13 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 2: Do you use that Sir March these days? 14 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: Oh? I don't, but other people do. 15 00:00:48,360 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, anyway, it's nice to have you here. Can 16 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:54,080 Speaker 2: I can I start by just asking a little bit 17 00:00:54,080 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 2: about what is keeping you busy these days. I know 18 00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: you were involved with the kyng Ara Report and that 19 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 2: had a fair to publicity a few months ago, but 20 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 2: what are the things that you're getting out of bed 21 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 2: for in the morning at the moment. 22 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: Well, my wife Mary has her own medical practice as 23 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,119 Speaker 1: a GP and as you can imagine these days, that's 24 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:18,960 Speaker 1: pretty busy. So part of my job is to support 25 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: her because she's doing the long airs and the hardwek. Yeah. 26 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,040 Speaker 1: I spent about half of my sort of official time 27 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: on director jobs, including an Australia, a couple of larger companies, 28 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 1: a couple of larger philanthropies, and some smaller private companies, 29 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: and about the other half of my time on what 30 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: I call family business. We're along with my kids and 31 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: one or two others. We've got into a number of 32 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: smaller businesses that we're working on developing. 33 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 2: Sure, you've got a lot of firepower there, right, is 34 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 2: it six children? 35 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, there's just two of them in with us so far, right, Yeah, Yeah, 36 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: I guess if we're successful acid. 37 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, okay, we can come back to a bit 38 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 2: of that, but I will go right back because this 39 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 2: is what we do in this podcast and just ask 40 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 2: you if you can remember your very first memories of 41 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:15,680 Speaker 2: having money and holding money in your hands. 42 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: Well, I think it was the very first memories where 43 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: after church on a Sunday we used to be given 44 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 1: five cents to go around to the shop and dip 45 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,399 Speaker 1: them and buy it what was then called the tt too, 46 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:30,640 Speaker 1: which was actually an ice blot. 47 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 2: I remember those, Yeah, I think I understand. 48 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: I can recall going off the boarding and earning money. 49 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: Probably the first memory, which will sound a bit odd 50 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: to the general audience, is there was a time when 51 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: you could pluck dead sheep that when sheep died, you 52 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: could you'd pull the wall off them by hand, and 53 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 1: a lot of farmers let their kids do that as 54 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,239 Speaker 1: their first taste of commerce. 55 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 2: Doesn't sound like something kids would be that keen on 56 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:01,799 Speaker 2: these days. 57 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: No, no, but the money was good, well, used to 58 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: be worth something. 59 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's true. 60 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,639 Speaker 1: And then I think my first paycheck was about thirty 61 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: five dollars a week I was. I left school, I 62 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: turned eighteen and was working for my father, and I 63 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: was kind of surprised that he decided to pay me. Yeah. Yeah, 64 00:03:22,200 --> 00:03:23,839 Speaker 1: it wasn't as much as he was paying the rest 65 00:03:23,840 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 1: of them, but it was it seemed like a fair 66 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,959 Speaker 1: bit of money. And that was you know, that's where 67 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 1: you start, like everybody else. 68 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 2: And this was on the farm, yes, yes, and southernd 69 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 2: yeah yeah, and just I mean it is fairly well known. 70 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 2: But you were also from a very big family yourself. 71 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 2: You were the second youngest of was it twelve. 72 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: Number ten, third youngest young patterns Pattens were pretty well 73 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: established all the time. 74 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 2: May yeah, yeah, I mean, what do you call about 75 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 2: money in the household? 76 00:03:57,640 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: You know? Was it? 77 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess it's interesting. On farming generally, often 78 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 2: it doesn't. You can have a lot of money invested 79 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:05,840 Speaker 2: in the land and all that sort of stuff, but 80 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 2: not necessarily a lot of cash around. 81 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and cash wasn't really the focus. There was a strong, 82 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: i think a strong focus on the family dimension, but 83 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: also on the vocation of farming, if you put it 84 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: that way. So I think that's where I learned a 85 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:29,600 Speaker 1: pretty important aspect of business, which is that your sense 86 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: of purpose matters. So my parents were wanted, of course 87 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 1: to have a viable, sustainable farm, but they did spend 88 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: I think more of their energy on ensuring that the 89 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:49,679 Speaker 1: many children had the experience of self sufficiency and hard 90 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: work and continuity. You know that the point of doing 91 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 1: this was to keep things moving along, doing a great 92 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: job of the farming itself, but ensuring it could be 93 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: passed on in good shape to the next generation and 94 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:08,839 Speaker 1: probably mattered more to them at the time, more to 95 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: them most of the time in my experience, than the 96 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: cash flow. Now it could be of course they were 97 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 1: worrying about the cash flow in the background because a 98 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: lot of children, a lot of boarding school, a lot 99 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 1: of outgoings. 100 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 2: Are there any any analogies there to managing an economy 101 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 2: when you think about trying to hand off the economy 102 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 2: in good shape, but it's not always about the cash 103 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 2: flow or the operating end of it, is it. 104 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: No, that's right. I actually think it's important to business. 105 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:39,039 Speaker 1: I think the point in my experience that people run 106 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 1: the best businesses are the ones who are really have 107 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: a strong sense of purpose about what they're trying to do. 108 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: They do it well, and if you execute operate well 109 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 1: with good people, then the cash flow looks after itself 110 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: to some extent. 111 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 2: When you think back to school, what were your passions 112 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 2: at school and with any signs then that a you 113 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 2: were political or b that you could have ended up 114 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 2: being finance minister and running the whole economy. 115 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: Probably no sign of the finance minister part. A lot 116 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: of I was what was interested in the school, very 117 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,159 Speaker 1: interested in sport, which was a bit harder when you 118 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: were in the country. So going to boarding school was 119 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: like going off to a fantastic holiday camp because you 120 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: had sport. When we were at primary school, we were 121 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 1: at home working. We didn't do any of the formal sport, 122 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,160 Speaker 1: and it was also very keen on reading and I 123 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: think also listening to my parents. My parents were politically active. 124 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: My mother in particular was an activist. My father more 125 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 1: of a philosopher. Sir Brian Tallboys was our local member 126 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,920 Speaker 1: of parliament, the Trade minister when agriculture was a big 127 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: deal and Britain going into the European Community was a 128 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: big deal. So a lot of a young age I 129 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: was exposed to all that, and I think I decided 130 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: reasonably early on i'd quite like to do the same 131 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: job that Brian Toolboys was doing. About twenty five years 132 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: later I got. 133 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:17,280 Speaker 2: To do it. And it was always probably national for you, 134 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 2: you right, growing up farming background and all that sort 135 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 2: of stuff. 136 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, Look, the brand of the philosophy and 137 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: approached politics changes over time. At the time you might 138 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: remember we had SMPS. We had a lot of sort 139 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: of statutory marketing boards, mean a whip board loomed large 140 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: in our lives. No one's heard of it since I 141 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: had actually just started farming when they got rid of SMPS. 142 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: With the changes under Roger Douglass in the Fourth Labor Government, 143 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: so you'd call it a kind of collective conservatism. I 144 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 1: would say it's probably changed. But now certainly we had 145 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: a local guy in the community in Dipton who actually 146 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: started a political party. I think he called it the 147 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: Liberal Country Party, an acolyte of Milton Friedman, someone who 148 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 1: you would now think of as reasonably mainstream economics. 149 00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 2: Who's ahead of his time. 150 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 1: Pre market economics, yere way ahead of his time, a 151 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: pretty colorful character and at the time regarded as as 152 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: a real maverick. But you know, he won his arguments 153 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: in the end. 154 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, do you remember much about that? I 155 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,079 Speaker 2: suppose it was through the seventies really growing up through 156 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 2: that economy, that sort of controlled economy of the Muldoon years. 157 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 1: I do, and I remember the intense interactions over the 158 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: government essentially negotiating the freezing workers pay, the intensive discussions 159 00:08:55,679 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: about reaching European veterinary standards and our freezing works and 160 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: how much that cost the farmers. Yeah, it was, it was. 161 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: There was a lot of intensity because it was so political, 162 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 1: Like you go to a meeting in the Dipton Hall 163 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,560 Speaker 1: with the local MP and sixty sixty people to turn up, 164 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: and it's because the economy was pretty politicized. That wouldn't 165 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: happen now, and for in a sense, for the right reason, 166 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: and that is politicians aren't making the decisions that they 167 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: did then. I remember John Fulloon coming to inver Cargo. 168 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 1: He was an associate, he was a finance minister of 169 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 1: some sort to explain the interest rate controls. 170 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, that had. 171 00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: Been put on. You know, you forget those things. 172 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 2: Before there was any kind of the Reserve Bank. Nothing 173 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 2: was floating and you know, independent or anything like that then. 174 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,079 Speaker 1: And an upshot of that was that when I started farming, 175 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: my first mortgage was twenty two percent, which was peculiar 176 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 1: to me. Of course that was the same same for everybody, 177 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: but it was was a signal of how out of 178 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: balance things had got and that times needed to change. 179 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: And that was pretty tricky in these communities that were 180 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: strong supporters of Rob Muldoon on the one hand, but 181 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: on the other hand sort of had a sense that 182 00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: it wasn't evil adding up to something that worked. 183 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 2: Between. I mean, you obviously were working on the family farm, 184 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 2: but you did head off to university and famously you've 185 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 2: got an honors degree in English, is that right? 186 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, that came a bit later I went to So. 187 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 2: That's the passion for reading. 188 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: Well, I think I was the only farm worker in 189 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: New Zealand with scholarship Latin in the early eighties. So 190 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: went off to Dunedin and did an English degree and 191 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: an accounting degree. Went back to the farm whereas farming 192 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:57,199 Speaker 1: on our own account then along with one of my brothers. 193 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: So that was a pretty well class quite young two 194 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: twenty three, big mortgage, very difficult circumstances, made lots of mistakes, 195 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 1: some of them pretty big, from which I've learned and 196 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: had done it differently now that I've restarted. 197 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 2: Well, this was a time that some people were being 198 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 2: were losing their farms during this period, right, this is 199 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 2: a you know, it was a really tough, tough era 200 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 2: for New Zealand farming. 201 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 1: Oh, it was extremely difficult into the into the late 202 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: into the late eighties. And then for romantic reasons where 203 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: Mary was in Wellington and I was in Dipton, and 204 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 1: we decided we should probably do something about that. So 205 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 1: I shifted to Wellington, out of the sheepyards into an 206 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:43,040 Speaker 1: English honors class to get it. I wanted to get 207 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: an honors degree so I could get a decent policy job. 208 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: And another person you might have heard of it was 209 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: in that class was John Campbell of right, but a 210 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: fantastic intellectual experience. 211 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, what was your specialty? In English literature? 212 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:04,359 Speaker 1: That was probably? What was it? Really? Kind of literary criticism. 213 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:08,600 Speaker 1: I think all this Marxist feminist analysis of how the 214 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: world works, which turns out to be a powerful mechanism 215 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: for understanding government monopolies as exercises of power rather than goodwill. 216 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 1: Like it did turn like I had some brilliant lecturers. 217 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: Some of that toolkit I found really useful later in politics, 218 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: the way people construct stories and the sort of lack 219 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: of self awareness, particularly in government where they are the 220 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: power structure. They think the corporates or someone are, well, yep, 221 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: that's another power structure. But government certainly is a powerful 222 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: monopoly system. 223 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was interesting. I was going to ask because 224 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 2: obviously they accounting people can get the heat around how 225 00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 2: that's going to be useful for you know, economics and finance, 226 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 2: and but I guess, yeah, there are that notion of 227 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 2: learning about how people put together stories and how influential 228 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 2: stories are, and in politics is probably pretty useful too. 229 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 2: I mean, you didn't you didn't you intended to head 230 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 2: off down as sort of the press secretary route, which 231 00:13:10,960 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 2: a few English majors probably would No. 232 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: I ended up as a diversity higher in the Treasury 233 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: where they used to employ they were getting criticized from 234 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,720 Speaker 1: employing too many economists these days are getting it deserbly 235 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:28,439 Speaker 1: not employing enough. So they have an intake of twenty economists. 236 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: And then there was two diversity people, of which I 237 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: was one with an English literature degree, and found myself 238 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 1: parked across the table from Roger Douglas, who used to 239 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: work with junior treasury offices through his revolution on the 240 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: flat tax package, I suppose would be one thing that 241 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 1: people are old enough to remember. Yeah, had unraveled the 242 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: labor government. But I was in a very small team 243 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: of people who worked on that package. So it was 244 00:13:58,120 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: fantastic to be in an environment where a ware something 245 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: was You know, politicians were making a lot of decisions, 246 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: even if you didn't always agree with them. But secondly, 247 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: where as a relatively during your person, you were given 248 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: responsibility to really understand your issues and actually articulate them 249 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 1: to decision makers. But I did decide after a while 250 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: that I'd rather be on the politician side of the 251 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: desk than the policy advisor's side of the desk, and 252 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: ended up in politics not long after that. 253 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was going to ask, you know, what really 254 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 2: motivated you to stand It was nineteen ninety, wasn't it. 255 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 2: What was the driver? 256 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 1: Well? I was always going to as I said to 257 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: my to Mary when we got married, I was interested 258 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: in politics and I always wanted to had in mind 259 00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: being the MP for what was then the Wallace seat, 260 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: which was rural Southland. Essentially, I would didn't want to 261 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: do it anywhere else, and the opportunity arose probably fifteen 262 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: years earlier than we expected health of my predecessor. So 263 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: it was when I think back, it was remarkable that 264 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: a young woman raised in Wellington, who never lived in 265 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: the country agreed to go off to the middle of 266 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: South And with little babies and get into the crazy 267 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: world of politics. And I'm forever grateful to Mary for 268 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: that courage. 269 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. So and you were into, you know, 270 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 2: you had a young family and stuff at that point. 271 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: We had one child when I was actually elected, and 272 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: followed by five more. 273 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 2: I guess I mean how much was you know, finance 274 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 2: or money a motivator and all that sort of those 275 00:15:39,320 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 2: career choices. You know, as soon as you've got a 276 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 2: child to worry about, you've you've got to be a 277 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 2: bit serious. 278 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: Do you. Yes, you do well, Yes, when you're young 279 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: with a child, with children and a mortgage, then you 280 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: want to get enough on the door. So yeah, it's 281 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: I've been fortunate to be able to have a bit 282 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: of a balance of things I really liked and wanted 283 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:08,520 Speaker 1: to do, alongside getting enough money in to meet my 284 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:13,760 Speaker 1: responsibilities as a parent and a husband. At times it's 285 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: pretty stretched, But I always think that what matters is 286 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: your prospects rather than what's happening today. A lot of 287 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: people can handle financial hardship if they think it's going 288 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: to get better. A real poverty is when you can't 289 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: see any prospect of improvement. Yeah. 290 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 2: Absolutely again, And just coming back to the economy and 291 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 2: some really tough times were so you and you in 292 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 2: Parliament I guess around the time of that Mother of 293 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 2: all budgets and some hard decisions having to be made. 294 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 2: What do you recall about the economy at that time 295 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 2: and the choices that I guess in hindsight the National 296 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 2: Government had to make at that time. 297 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: Well, it was pretty grim in my community, which I 298 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,239 Speaker 1: knew better than any others, and it's in the rural communities. 299 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: The dislocation that went on as part of the deregulation 300 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 1: the economy was enormous. And when I hear people talking 301 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 1: about crisis today, by that standard of that time, it's 302 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,719 Speaker 1: not a crisis. Maybe we should be more worried than 303 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 1: we are. But people had to the whole communities would change, 304 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: their lives, would changed, a lot of people lost their jobs, 305 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 1: and that went on for a while, I think, longer 306 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: than the proponents of deregulation thought or and proponents of 307 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: reforming the economy. And remember of nineteen ninety three. National 308 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: won that election by fourteen votes on a recount and 309 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: hon Aoo two weeks after the election. And that period 310 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: that to ninety three was pretty rough. I was chairman 311 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: of the Social Services Select Committee, so we bore the 312 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: brunt of the front end of public reaction to the 313 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: benefit cuts. I was on a select committee with Michael 314 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: Cullen and Helen Clark, and I'd never really cheered a 315 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:11,959 Speaker 1: rugby club subcommittee. So the protests. There was crowds pushing 316 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: down doors to get into our meetings. There was no 317 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:19,120 Speaker 1: security in those days. So it was a pretty hard 318 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,239 Speaker 1: edged introduction to the politics of change, you know, and 319 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: it did it did left the mark on me in 320 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,040 Speaker 1: the sense that it's easy to advocate change if you 321 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 1: don't have to face all that, if you don't have 322 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 1: to look into the eyes of those facing the consequences. 323 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:40,239 Speaker 1: And I think the second thing was that there if 324 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: there's less urgency than there was, then there are better way, 325 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,399 Speaker 1: there are other better ways of getting control of government 326 00:18:48,440 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 1: spending than what were some pretty, you know, some fairly 327 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: tough decisions that were made then. 328 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:58,479 Speaker 2: I guess people were, you know, people were very you know, 329 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 2: they were sick to death of inflation at that point, 330 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 2: and the idea of getting inflation under control finally was 331 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 2: pretty important, which is a little bit like what we've 332 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,760 Speaker 2: seen in the past a few years. As you say, 333 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 2: I agree with you that it's not quite as severe 334 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 2: as as it may have been back then, because we'd 335 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 2: sort of had about a decade of it in those days. 336 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 2: But do you recall that changing do you recall I 337 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 2: seem to remember sometime in the mid nineties that it 338 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,919 Speaker 2: suddenly started to come right for a bit, yeah. 339 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: About nineteen ninety five heading into ninety six, which is 340 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 1: what made National viable for reelection because the economy was 341 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: actually starting to pick up, although it wasn't that obvious, 342 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 1: certainly not in the political world, but it was happening 343 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: out in the countryside. And I think Jim Bolger actually 344 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: deserved a lot of credit for seeing that period through. 345 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: He didn't get much credit at the time, but while 346 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: he didn't want to do it the same way as 347 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 1: Ruth Richardson did, all the time between them about the 348 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: right kind of things happened for the New Zealand economy. 349 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: I think another lesson out of it was the dynamism 350 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 1: that comes out of that sort of dislocation. You know, 351 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: people do come up with better ways of doing things. 352 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: And I know even in the world of the sheep 353 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 1: farming industry, its performance increased significantly, improved significantly over the 354 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:32,320 Speaker 1: next ten to fifteen years in a way that might 355 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 1: not have happened. And if I had a concern about 356 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 1: the economy now, it's that we've we've become pretty risk averse. 357 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: You know, we regulate and make policy in a way 358 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: that dampens down the reallocation of resource, and that may 359 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: be one of the reasons our productivity is not doing 360 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 1: so well. And looking ahead, I think it's a big issue. 361 00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 2: You think politics is part of that. I mean there's 362 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 2: a constant battle of politicians face with the polling and 363 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:03,639 Speaker 2: the focus groups and all that kind of stuff. 364 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: Oh well, of course politics is part of it. But Key, 365 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:13,959 Speaker 1: we are amenable to an argument where politicians making an 366 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: argument that sounding persistent, they can get there. I mean, 367 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,120 Speaker 1: one of the things that I was involved with, which 368 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: I'm still proud of, was the tax which where we 369 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: made the argument for what is good economics, and that 370 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: is reducing income tax and increasing GST. And the public 371 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: went with that, you know, to a large extent because 372 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: of the skills of John Key, But it just showed 373 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: you you can win an argument we set out to 374 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: win and win an argument about floating energy companies, which 375 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 1: I think has turned out to be critical in the 376 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: energy transition, and probably a bit more needs to be 377 00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 1: done there. But again you make the argument that's in 378 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 1: a way that's sensible, which I think was a bit 379 00:21:57,119 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 1: of a shift from the mindset of the former was 380 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: late eighties and nineties, which was a bit more about 381 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,920 Speaker 1: or crash or crash through, try and get enough done 382 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: while you burn up your political capital. Well MMP doesn't 383 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,920 Speaker 1: really let you do that, and it's not a bad thing. 384 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: It forces you to make more coherent arguments, but you 385 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 1: do need a political class that's interested in doing that 386 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,680 Speaker 1: and not dominated by managerialism of the status quo. 387 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, your treasurer at the end of the Shipley government, 388 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 2: is that right? So was that your first major finance 389 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 2: type role. 390 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: Yes, it was. I'd been involved mainly with health through 391 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: the mid nineties, the health reforms, which had a great 392 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,240 Speaker 1: deal of merit actually, and we're going to have to 393 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 1: relearn some of those lessons. But then with the change 394 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 1: of leadership in ninety seven, I became a finan sort 395 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,040 Speaker 1: of a junior finance minister, and then I think just 396 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:56,480 Speaker 1: for a period of like twelve months, I was the 397 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 1: treasurer i I think, or the finance ministry I mean. 398 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 2: And there's obviously a well well traversed story of your 399 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 2: first go at leading the National Party and all that stuff. 400 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 2: We probably haven't got time to do a whole political history, 401 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,120 Speaker 2: but I would like to jump into two thousand and eight, 402 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 2: because you know I was I was covering the GFC 403 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 2: at the time. It was pretty hair raising stuff and 404 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 2: you guys came into a pretty spectacular crisis. So that's 405 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 2: as Deputy PM and Finance minister. How do you looking 406 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 2: back at that, how do you think you guys handled 407 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 2: it and would you do anything different? 408 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 1: I don't think we do a lot different That maybe 409 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:42,959 Speaker 1: more that perhaps more opportunity for reform might have occurred 410 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: in the absence of the earthquakes, right, yeah, Remember we're 411 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: just kind of getting organized and then we. 412 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 2: Had it was a double blow, wasn't it really? 413 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 1: Eleven earthquakes? But I lucky you could go back in 414 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 1: detail and see some things should have been done differently. 415 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: But I think the important really what worked there, particularly 416 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: with the leadership of John Key, the sort of operational 417 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: effectiveness of what was pretty a coherent cabinet just maintained 418 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: confidence through some pretty difficult times, and that's quite that's important. 419 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: As we found out in recent years, you can if 420 00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: confidence goes off, people aren't as willing to make investment 421 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 1: decisions or employment decisions, then an economy inevitably slows. It's 422 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 1: almost like a costless benefit. If the decision making looks 423 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: like it's coherent and a bit predictable. Then that's that's 424 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,240 Speaker 1: a gain for the whole economy that you didn't have 425 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: to pay for. 426 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Do you remember a moment when those I 427 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 2: guess after the big quakes in christ when you're just 428 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 2: looking at the state of the books and thinking, oh 429 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,960 Speaker 2: my gosh, you know, how do we how can we 430 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 2: possibly turn this around? How did you say view that? 431 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 2: Because it was pretty daunting for a while, you know, 432 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:04,520 Speaker 2: especially coming off the back of the GFC. 433 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: Yes, it was. Look, I think when things blow out 434 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 1: like the earth requirements for the earthquake. Really I just 435 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: remember thinking two things. One is, we don't want to 436 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:26,360 Speaker 1: hold this back by being unwilling to spend. And if 437 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,120 Speaker 1: I was going to give credit for the person who 438 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,360 Speaker 1: really did the hard work on that, it was Jerry Browning. 439 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: He did an amazing job under difficult decisions, of difficult 440 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 1: conditions of being on the ground, making decisions that were 441 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,919 Speaker 1: relevant in christ Church and highly relevant to rebuilding the 442 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 1: sort of shattered confidence in the place at the same 443 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 1: time as always having an eye on the dollars, and 444 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: he never really he didn't put the government in the 445 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: position of saying, well, I've gone off and spendless money, 446 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,560 Speaker 1: You're just gonna have to pay the bill. And I 447 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: just think that was a remarkably constructive process. So that 448 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,119 Speaker 1: was one thing. And the second thing was that for 449 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 1: a small, open economy as usual, you've got to keep 450 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 1: your lenders well informed and what they want to see. 451 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: And what we needed was a path back from what 452 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: I think a nine percent of GDP deficit, but quite 453 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: a bit bigger than what you've got now. And so 454 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: we focused very much on the road to recovery, you know, 455 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: rather than being overly focused on saving every cent. Right now, 456 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: what's the dynamic going to get you back? And in 457 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 1: that context, circumstances helped. You had ten percent of GDP 458 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 1: injection from reinsurers into the economy. That helped a lot 459 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 1: because I was coming in to rebuild christ Church. And 460 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: now that you've got to remember that was all just 461 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: part of the golden era of Chinese growth and New 462 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,080 Speaker 1: Zealand as having a free trade agreement with China, which 463 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: was a novelty then worked on by both bipartisan base 464 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: that wasn't political as it might be now. That was 465 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: quite a strong tailwind and it was also a time 466 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: when you were part of this long term decrease in 467 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: interest rates. 468 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, when you look. 469 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,120 Speaker 1: Ahead, those tailwinds aren't going to be there. Yeah, restraates 470 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 1: can't keep dropping. You know, that'll come off. But that's good. 471 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, and people have highlighted that, you know, China's still 472 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 2: going to be a huge market, but that growth that 473 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 2: we experienced won't be there. I mean, you know, it's 474 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:29,359 Speaker 2: not going to be the same anyway. We've got to 475 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 2: obviously find some other drivers. 476 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, and I think that's a bit of 477 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: a challenge because it's not obvious what those are going 478 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 1: to be. Certainly I don't want governments trying to pick them. 479 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's a fair point. Just again, just quickly 480 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 2: looking back, are there any other economic decisions over those 481 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 2: nine years that you especially proud of will be that 482 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:52,159 Speaker 2: you regret? 483 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: Oh? Well, at tax switch is when I was pretty 484 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: pretty keen on pretty I thought it was a good 485 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: piece of well executed policy. I think the focus on 486 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:06,040 Speaker 1: the operation of the public sector was unheralded at the time, 487 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 1: but people realized when the next government came along and 488 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: took a different approach that what they took for granted 489 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 1: was probably fairly sensible. Now it is twenty twenty five 490 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 1: percent of the economy, the most direct influenced government can 491 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: have on productivity. And this economy is run its own 492 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: business better, and you can run it better, but you've 493 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: got to decide to and you've got to understand the 494 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: leavers there. And that was all given away and we 495 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: ended up, you know, with this big spend up, including 496 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: COVID justified some of it, big spend up, with not 497 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: much more to show for it. So you know, the 498 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: health budget is sixty percent larger than sixty years ago 499 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: with rough with a small increase in output. Yeah, so 500 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: that but I was pleased with the work that we 501 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: did there. The early on. I remember making a few 502 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: speeches around housing housing supply when it was regarded as 503 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: a cranky right wing idea that supply had any influence 504 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: on housing prices. And I think one unherralded success around 505 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,240 Speaker 1: that time was the Auckland Unitary Plan, which is the 506 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: most you know, that provided the biggest boost for house 507 00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: building in New Zealand in a long time, and that's 508 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: still running even though it slowed down a bit, and 509 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: I think the lessons from that are now being picked 510 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: up by the current government spread through the system. In fact, 511 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: the last government picked up some of those lessons. 512 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, are there regrets about twenty seventeen and 513 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,239 Speaker 2: the negotiations and all that sort of stuff. It's one 514 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 2: of the great what ifs. I suppose we're all surprised. 515 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 2: I mean, on the night, I think we all thought 516 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 2: you'd won it because it was a strong result. But 517 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 2: you know, politics as politics, and Winston Peters as Winston 518 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 2: Peters and how do you view that now? 519 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: Oh, look, over time, your personal your personal situation, you 520 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 1: take the benefits of the personal situation take over. So look, 521 00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to swap the time I've had working 522 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: with my family, being able to support Mary, running my 523 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: own life. That's been fantastic. There's plenty of life beyond politics. 524 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: And even at the time, I mean, look was it was. 525 00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: I was a bit sorry about it. You know that 526 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: it was the wrong decision for the country. I don't 527 00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: think there's any doubt about that, But that's m MP. 528 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 1: The voters had to say, you know, National that okay, 529 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: but it's coalition partners did badly. The Maori Party didn't 530 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: didn't keep a seat and was out of Parliament, and 531 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: that was only there because we made a deal to 532 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: let them stay there. And I'm sure there's some lessons 533 00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: from that that I haven't spent a whole lot of 534 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: time on. Look, it's politics. I'd always thought in politics, 535 00:30:56,160 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: you get these incredible opportunities and you don't necessarily deserve them. 536 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: A lot of it comes your way from circumstance and 537 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: other people who you work with, or the great team 538 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: around you. But it can go in an instant if 539 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: only because of your own mistakes and stupidities in an election. 540 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,280 Speaker 1: There was the public's view on it, and you just know, 541 00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,400 Speaker 1: I accepted that view and get on with the rest 542 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 1: of your life, and it's worked out well. 543 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean obviously, as you've sort of interdut 544 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 2: you know, there were huge impacts economically from it all. 545 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:32,960 Speaker 2: And you look at the COVID era and what happened. 546 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:35,880 Speaker 2: You know, if you'd been in power, then would would 547 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 2: it have been wildly different policy? Do you think that 548 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 2: you'd have followed? 549 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,840 Speaker 1: Look, you can't tell for sure, and I didn't focus 550 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 1: a lot on the details of the policy making. I 551 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: think that the I think a couple of things might 552 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: have been different than one I think we would have 553 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: recognized the trade offs and been willing to work with 554 00:31:57,320 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: them a bit more than the government of the time. 555 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,040 Speaker 1: You know, there's a high cost to that kind of lockdown, 556 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: and in a sense we're still paying that cost now. 557 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 1: And you look at other countries that have had a 558 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: hard lockdown, and there's others who are harder than New 559 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: Zealand and they're paying a price too. I think the 560 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:20,920 Speaker 1: second thing was that the sense of that the government 561 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: was absolutely central everything happened in the economy lingered on 562 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: after COVID, after it was necessary, and I think that's 563 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: just part of the predilection of a labor government and 564 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: a complacency in the public service and a lot of it. 565 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: So there was quite a lot of less quite a 566 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: lot of poor decision making after COVID that flowed from 567 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: attitudes developed during COVID. Otherwise, lot people make the decisions 568 00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: they do at the time. And I hope, I hope 569 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: there is going to be this inquiry they're talking about 570 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: doing will be a bit bit more than back backslapping 571 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 1: by the public health establishment about what a great job 572 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: it did, because there's a lot of other consequences that 573 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: we just need to understand. 574 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't think you're going to be involved in 575 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 2: anymore I mean any more government inquiries or reports coming up. 576 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: No, I've had a spind at KO and I enjoyed that, 577 00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 1: but otherwise plenty to do. 578 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 2: Look, I want to get in just to finish up 579 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 2: some of our quick fire money talks. Questions to bring 580 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 2: it back to money a little bit. First up, what 581 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 2: would you say the poorest you've ever been is? 582 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 1: Oh, well, look, there's been plenty of times that didn't 583 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,360 Speaker 1: have cash either as a I've always had work, but 584 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: I remember feeling very poor after buying Mary's engagement, my 585 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: life savings on it, on the engagement ring and a 586 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: trip to go go and see it. Thinking nextually, I've 587 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,000 Speaker 1: got no money in the bank, but always had prospects. 588 00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:05,320 Speaker 1: I have to say, I don't think I ever felt poor. 589 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 1: Certainly felt under pressure with a young family with mortgages 590 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: and outgoings, and then unpredictable things happen, so you know, 591 00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 1: nothing to complain about. But I you know, in my 592 00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 1: broader family, I've seen persistent poverty and either from ill 593 00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: health or bad luck or poor decision making, and it's 594 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: grinding on people. And what I've seen of that has 595 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,280 Speaker 1: been part of motivation for taking an interest in those issues. 596 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:40,440 Speaker 2: Sort of the flip question to that, as I suppose, 597 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,560 Speaker 2: and I don't think we should count the ring for 598 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 2: your wife, But what's the most indulgent purchase you've ever 599 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 2: made or when you. 600 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: Well, that was certainly the most disproportionate one to my wealth, 601 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 1: to my wealth at the time. I'm not really an 602 00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:00,439 Speaker 1: indulgent purchasing. You know. Sometimes I think buying a nice 603 00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,799 Speaker 1: jacket can feel indulgent, but it's you know, well within 604 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:06,160 Speaker 1: I think, I think, I say. 605 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,959 Speaker 2: I interviewed the late Sir Michael Callen along these lines 606 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,279 Speaker 2: and he was very similar. He talked about splashing out 607 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 2: once in an eighty dollar bottle of wine. I thought, 608 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:19,759 Speaker 2: it's not I wasn't the same as interviewing Sir John Well, 609 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 2: you know that's good for finance ministers to. 610 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:27,279 Speaker 1: You know, maybe that's right. We still get accused as 611 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 1: finance ministers. He still get accused of, you know, being 612 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,040 Speaker 1: inconsistent with the constrictions he put on other people. 613 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 2: Do you buy lotto tickets and do you imagine winning lotto? 614 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 1: Still occasionally I've I did buy one of you. I 615 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: think last year and in my head, I've got a 616 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 1: ninety year old father in law who always used to 617 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: buy Golden Keywi tickets, and he was he came here 618 00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: as a Sarmon migrant, we're very hard all his life 619 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,720 Speaker 1: to raise thirteen children. And I always thought, well, wouldn't 620 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: it wouldn't it wouldn't a windfall be a nice reward 621 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: for all that? But of course my nearest and dearest 622 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: family think that was just cover for wanting to buy 623 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 1: a lot of ticket. 624 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,839 Speaker 2: I guess another one about money, really, but how much 625 00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:22,839 Speaker 2: you've sort of answered this about how much is making 626 00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 2: money important to you? And how much of that is 627 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:28,800 Speaker 2: money just the by product of success. 628 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:33,239 Speaker 1: Or of what you do well having spent five or 629 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: six years now in small businesses, then there's you know, 630 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:39,879 Speaker 1: you're certainly keen on the buy product because it's hard 631 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: to come by. It's it's usually I enjoy the challenge 632 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: of it. But you know, a lot of businesses make 633 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 1: enough money to make a living and a lot of 634 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 1: and any number of them disappear. So it's not like 635 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: it's not as easy a ticket to significant income as 636 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,879 Speaker 1: the policy world thinks it is. But look, I think 637 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: the purpose for which you do. Business is a significant 638 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 1: determinant of whether it's successful, and success comes in different forms, 639 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 1: doesn't It can be growth, it can be profitability, It 640 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 1: can be building a team of people who really work 641 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:25,800 Speaker 1: out how to provide value for their customers. And the 642 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,319 Speaker 1: other bit of success is just happy customers. I mean 643 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: one of the things we do with service charities. And 644 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:36,480 Speaker 1: for the young people who do it, it's enormously rewarding 645 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:38,800 Speaker 1: because they just see these people who are trying to 646 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,800 Speaker 1: do good figure out how to do it better. But 647 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,879 Speaker 1: it is I think, Look, one of the great things 648 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,280 Speaker 1: about having a bit of income is it just reduces 649 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: the cognitive load of worrying about the day to day 650 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:56,839 Speaker 1: cash outgoings all the time. And I think it's great 651 00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 1: for people, particularly as they get later in life, if 652 00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 1: they can get a bit of that space because you 653 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: spend a lot of time, you know, making it like 654 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: we used to because we had six kids, five boys. 655 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,400 Speaker 1: You try and buy food on scents per kilo or 656 00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,800 Speaker 1: dry matter, so sweet picked bananas, rice. 657 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,880 Speaker 2: I'm feeding two teenagers at the moment where they can 658 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 2: need more of it. 659 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:22,400 Speaker 1: You can get the better. 660 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,239 Speaker 2: We can't ask you what you would do if we 661 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 2: made your prime minister for a day, because you had 662 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 2: plenty of days as prime minister. But I guess we 663 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:36,200 Speaker 2: could ask ask you if we could put you there again. 664 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:38,879 Speaker 2: You know, is there anything you wish you had done 665 00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,040 Speaker 2: or that you would do if you had another chance. 666 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: Well that's a hard question to answer, actually, because I 667 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 1: always felt like you need to feel like you're working 668 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,440 Speaker 1: at the outer boundary of your capacity to achieve when 669 00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 1: you're there. Sometimes I think it'd be you know, look 670 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 1: back and think we could have pushed through. The one 671 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: area I think we could have pushed through harder and 672 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:08,240 Speaker 1: now is happening now is around housing, because the housing 673 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: affordability is such a significant driver of misallocation of capital, 674 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:22,640 Speaker 1: poverty for lower income households. It's like a jugger or 675 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: you know, that needs to be turned around. And we 676 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:32,759 Speaker 1: got started on that, but you know, perhaps could have 677 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: pushed harder. Sometimes these things are a matter of public acceptance. 678 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 1: I mean the current governments making decisions in that area 679 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,320 Speaker 1: which would have caused a riot as recently as twenty seventeen. 680 00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean Chrisship actually said house prices come down. 681 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 2: You couldn't say how you couldn't have a politician a 682 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 2: few years ago saying that they are in favor of 683 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 2: house prices. 684 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 1: Coming down and that's just because it wasn't bad enough yet. Yeah, 685 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,560 Speaker 1: but you know it got bad enough and so people 686 00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,800 Speaker 1: are accepting more radical solutions, and I think that's a 687 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: positive sign. I'm a bit of a believer in these 688 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: self balancing things. 689 00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,279 Speaker 2: And producing Ethan's just written CGT here. I'm thinking you're 690 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,319 Speaker 2: probably thinking supply side when you talk about rather than 691 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 2: CGT or demand side stuff for housing. When you when 692 00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 2: you look back, would you have done anything more on 693 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:20,399 Speaker 2: the tax side. 694 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: We had a pretty good look at it, I think 695 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:28,120 Speaker 1: every finance minister does. And then it runs into two 696 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:34,440 Speaker 1: two problems. One is just the implementation of it, and 697 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,440 Speaker 1: I think you'd find even in countries where they have it, 698 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 1: it's arguing about arguable about whether it's net revenue or not, 699 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,600 Speaker 1: and any other in New Zealand is just the politics 700 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,280 Speaker 1: which still get it every now and again. 701 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's another battle. Laghbour's got to go through it. 702 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 1: In general, you want your tax base moving away from 703 00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 1: things you want more of, like income and work and 704 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 1: returns on capital, and you want your tax space more 705 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 1: around things that can't move and that you don't want 706 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,239 Speaker 1: more of, so you want it on fixed assets, land, 707 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: wealthy and consumption. Yeah, if you can. So you know 708 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:19,800 Speaker 1: it's moved a bit that way, and probably we you 709 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:21,680 Speaker 1: know it's moving further. Just look at rates or a 710 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,480 Speaker 1: land tax and going up you know, ten to twenty 711 00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: percent per annum for the next five years across New Zealand. 712 00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:29,600 Speaker 1: So we're going to get a bit of a live 713 00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,719 Speaker 1: experiment and growth in capital taxes. Yeah. 714 00:41:32,920 --> 00:41:35,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, And so it's just on the supply side. You 715 00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:37,920 Speaker 2: were there any specifics that you are you talking about 716 00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:40,880 Speaker 2: opening up land? Would there been a national version of 717 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:42,759 Speaker 2: a ki we Build or something like that that could 718 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 2: have been done? Oh no, just the regular tree making 719 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:47,279 Speaker 2: it easier to build. 720 00:41:47,840 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. Microeconomics and regulation is boring but absolutely vital and 721 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,600 Speaker 1: when it works, it works well. I think New Zealand's 722 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 1: done a pretty good job of its energy markets for instance, 723 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:01,160 Speaker 1: not perfect, but better than better than a lot of 724 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:06,840 Speaker 1: other places. And it's of in housing is all about 725 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: regulation and pushing back plannerism, which is a lot of 726 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,719 Speaker 1: people divide designing nice cities with and buildings with no 727 00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,799 Speaker 1: recognition at all of the economics. But that's coming. Well, 728 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:27,560 Speaker 1: that's underway. Even in Wellington a group of young millennials 729 00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:33,920 Speaker 1: was able to persuade a fairly limited council to make 730 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 1: sensible decisions about housing and housing affordability. Well, that's that's promising. 731 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,239 Speaker 2: That's good to hear. Look, so just a last question. 732 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 2: I know we've going to let you go. It really 733 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 2: is a big one, really, and it's around where you 734 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:52,400 Speaker 2: think the issues around social inequality and poverty lie. And 735 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 2: maybe with you know, the time you've had, you've been 736 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 2: working with charity and a lot of all the experience 737 00:42:57,719 --> 00:42:59,880 Speaker 2: you've had, you know, what do you think it is 738 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 2: that that really? I guess keep some people poor and 739 00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:07,239 Speaker 2: some people manage to get out of that. And what 740 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:08,880 Speaker 2: do you think the number one thing we should be 741 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:10,440 Speaker 2: focusing on to address it is? 742 00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:13,759 Speaker 1: Look, I think if you had, if you had to 743 00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 1: pick a number one, that would be housing costs, housing affordability. 744 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,880 Speaker 1: And I think number two is the very is the 745 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 1: the way that traditional government delivery of service, which is 746 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:34,600 Speaker 1: billions of a year, doesn't work for complex families or communities. 747 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:39,319 Speaker 1: And that's and the poor mainstream government service has become 748 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,080 Speaker 1: part of the pathology of poverty and we've got some 749 00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,960 Speaker 1: of the worst record in the OECD of using education 750 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:50,279 Speaker 1: to overcome an equity. And actually it's the recent work 751 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,000 Speaker 1: that shows our health systems not much better. And that's 752 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:56,400 Speaker 1: what that's caused by, driven to a large extent by 753 00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,480 Speaker 1: universalist mentality, that is that you're meant to treat all 754 00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,520 Speaker 1: everybody the same, and we just seet time and again. 755 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:10,320 Speaker 1: And the work that we're doing customer focused delivery in 756 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 1: the context of a trusted relationship is magic. Doesn't answer 757 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: all the poverty issues. But if you've got the housing 758 00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,000 Speaker 1: right and that government service delivery right, I think you 759 00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,920 Speaker 1: can make a significant impact. And then there's always the 760 00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:24,680 Speaker 1: arguments about redistribution. You know, how far do you go 761 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:29,279 Speaker 1: with just shifting cash around you? But there's other bits 762 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,360 Speaker 1: you can do. The other bits you can do that 763 00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:34,319 Speaker 1: are going to make a significant difference that I've talked about. 764 00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:36,759 Speaker 2: Hello, Bill, We're going to have to let you go there, 765 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,360 Speaker 2: But sir Bill, I should have said sorry. Thank you 766 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:42,680 Speaker 2: very much for coming and making the time to talk 767 00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:43,680 Speaker 2: to some money talks. 768 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 1: No problem, Thank you very much. 769 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:48,719 Speaker 2: Ly, cheers, Thank you for listening to this episode and 770 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,239 Speaker 2: to this season. We'll be back in twenty twenty five. 771 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,360 Speaker 2: In the meantime, listen to Money Talks on iHeartRadio or 772 00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 2: wherever you get your podcasts, and catch up on some 773 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,240 Speaker 2: of our Ask guests while you wait for the next season. 774 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:07,120 Speaker 2: Thanks to my producer Econsiles and my sound engineer Liann McDonald. 775 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:09,600 Speaker 2: And if you want to get in touch, email me 776 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,560 Speaker 2: at Liam dot Dan at injured me dot co dot 777 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 2: zed and read more business news and features at Injured 778 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,000 Speaker 2: Herald dot co dot zed.