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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News talksed B. Follow

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Speaker 1: this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of this now the Leighton

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Speaker 1: Smith Podcast powered by News Talks EDB.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Podcasts two hundred and seventy one for February twelve,

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. You know, there's so much choice when

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Speaker 2: considering content, and that's the only negative I can think

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Speaker 2: of when it comes to a weekly program. So many

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Speaker 2: issues from international sources a at home. Many of those

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Speaker 2: are crossovers that affect more than one country. Many of

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Speaker 2: them have global impact. But of course I'm stating the obvious.

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Speaker 2: But this is only the second podcast of the year,

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Speaker 2: and I will approach it this way. On the thirties

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Speaker 2: of August last year, at nine fifty three a M

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Speaker 2: I received the following email. Peter wanted me to reach

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Speaker 2: out to you as he will be in New Zealand

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Speaker 2: from December three until the end of January and wanted

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Speaker 2: to see if we can schedule an in person interview.

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Speaker 2: He said that you gave him the best model of

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Speaker 2: wine he has ever had, and still thinks about it. So,

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Speaker 2: having dampened my palate, I decided that we'd follow up

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Speaker 2: and arranged for something at the end of his Well,

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Speaker 2: actually we didn't arrange it then. We just agreed that

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Speaker 2: we would talk later, because with the holiday period and

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Speaker 2: going away, etc. It threw things into a bit of confusion.

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Speaker 2: But we ended up getting together right at the very

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Speaker 2: end of his stay in the country. And what you

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Speaker 2: will hear shortly will either aggravate you, maybe even beyond belief,

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Speaker 2: or it will satiate you. But Peter Bagoshian lost his

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Speaker 2: position as assistant professor at the university he was at

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Speaker 2: because he refused to bow too. Matters woke and one

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Speaker 2: could only say good on him. We interviewed him twenty fifteen,

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Speaker 2: so it was ten years ago, and this came quite

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Speaker 2: out of the blue. We hadn't communicated since he was

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Speaker 2: here back then. He is an author. The publications could

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Speaker 2: be found in well, there's too many to read, to

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Speaker 2: be honest, let me name some that you'll recognize. New

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Speaker 2: York Times, Time Magazine, The Wall Street Journal, Quillette, The

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Speaker 2: Philosopher's Magazine, Philosophy's Future, Skeptical Inquirer, The Spectator USA Today,

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Speaker 2: Scientific American. You got the picture, and that isn't even

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Speaker 2: half of the number of outlets that has been listed.

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Speaker 2: He is currently a founding faculty fellow at the University

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Speaker 2: of Austin, and the fact that he's involved with the

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Speaker 2: University of Boston, that is the new university that I

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Speaker 2: have that I have commented on a number of times,

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Speaker 2: was impressive. So on near his last day in the country,

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Speaker 2: he came to the house and we recorded for about

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Speaker 2: an hour and a quarter. It came down to a

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Speaker 2: little less than that, but nevertheless it's a reasonably lengthy interview.

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Speaker 2: It turned out in the end that the Free Speech

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Speaker 2: Union was responsible for his visit here, not all of it,

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Speaker 2: because he stayed those couple of months, as you'll hear.

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Speaker 2: But coincidentally, around the same time, I received this from

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Speaker 2: the Taxpayers Organization or Taxpayers Union should I say, dot

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Speaker 2: Org from Jordan Williams. And it's relevant to where we're going,

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Speaker 2: so let me include some of this trigger warning. This

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Speaker 2: email is likely to upset you. This email is longer

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Speaker 2: than usual but important. It will likely see kickback from

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Speaker 2: those who like to attack anyone who dares to criticize

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Speaker 2: spending when it relates to indigenous matters. The media won't

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Speaker 2: touch it. But frankly, unless we take on these sorts

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Speaker 2: of roughts, new Zealand's reputation for accountable government won't last long.

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Speaker 2: A few months ago, the Taxpayers Union, when public exposing

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Speaker 2: the taxpayer funded science project. Our research is uncovered to

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Speaker 2: and this is no joke, record whales, mixing those sounds

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Speaker 2: with recordings from healthy Carrie forests to take into unhealthy

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Speaker 2: Carrie forests, playback the audio recordings and assess whether the

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Speaker 2: whale music could be effective in soothing Carrie trees and

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Speaker 2: beating myrtle rust and Carrie dieback. You really couldn't make

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Speaker 2: this up. Now to recap it was part of the

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Speaker 2: National Science Challenges, which are to bring together the country's

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Speaker 2: top scientists and use the best science to address the challenges.

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Speaker 2: One of the challenges related to protecting New Zealand's by

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Speaker 2: a diversity, including our iconic trees. Now recall that MBIE

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Speaker 2: officials insisted that as part of the project made range

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Speaker 2: Mary must be on the same footing. That's traditional mari

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Speaker 2: must be on the same footing as colonial science. Their

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Speaker 2: description not his. As in Jordan, Williams. Mbie's justification for

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Speaker 2: this project is that, according to Mari legend knowledge, sperm

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Speaker 2: whales and Carrie trees are brothers. The hypothesis taxpayers are

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Speaker 2: forking out to test is whether the whales have a

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Speaker 2: calming effect on the trees and therefore helped the trees

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Speaker 2: resist disease. We're not making this up. It's literally on

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Speaker 2: the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Employment website. That's MBIE.

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Speaker 2: After we blew the whistle on the project, official spent

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Speaker 2: months playing games and refusing to answer our basic questions

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Speaker 2: on the oranga that is well being project. The project

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Speaker 2: is managed by MBIE, but the actual payments are from

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Speaker 2: Land Care Research and after much determination that is staff time,

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Speaker 2: James and the research team have finally got to the

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Speaker 2: bottom of how much was spent on the na Rakau

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Speaker 2: Taki Taki project. Officials are still refusing a line by

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Speaker 2: line breakdown. I wonder why. But in total, this Madenga

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Speaker 2: Mari based research cost taxpayers four million, twenty seven twenty dollars.

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Speaker 2: That's right, four million plus GST was paid to investigate

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Speaker 2: whether recording whale sounds mixing them with recordings from healthy

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Speaker 2: Kai forests and playing them to unhealthy cari forests and

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Speaker 2: other nonsense such as the language of the domain of tane,

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Speaker 2: all in the name of healing them and science. Here's

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Speaker 2: what the four million paid for. There's only one thing listed,

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Speaker 2: sonic tapestries of rejuvenation and well Being. And then there's

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Speaker 2: a bit about the project. As part of this investigation,

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Speaker 2: we've uncovered that the research was outsourced to a private,

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Speaker 2: not for profit company, te Tira Wakamataki Limited. And that's

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Speaker 2: when we came to a stunning realization which now explains

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Speaker 2: why the departments have been so cagey about giving us

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Speaker 2: information on the project. According to te Tira Wakamataki Limited's website,

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Speaker 2: its co founder and trustee is Melanie Mark Shadbolt. And

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Speaker 2: here's the startling thing. Miss Mark Shadbolt is also the

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Speaker 2: co director of the very same bio Heritage Science Challenge Science.

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Speaker 2: That's what it is, bio Heritage Science Challenge Science. I e.

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Speaker 2: The government initiative funding the project. I had the team

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Speaker 2: work through the Finances and Charities Commission records of Miss

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Speaker 2: Mark Schadbolt's company. Company's casts are almost entirely salaries and

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Speaker 2: its charitable purposes merely provides advice, information and advocacy. Nice

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Speaker 2: work if you can get it. Now there is more

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Speaker 2: you want it, I think. So it's bad enough that

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Speaker 2: this taxpayer money was spent in the first place to

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Speaker 2: research what we all know is nothing more than a

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Speaker 2: myth Wales being brothers of the ki and that they're

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Speaker 2: able to communicate with each other. But when the provider

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Speaker 2: of these nonsense projects playing music to trees is also

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Speaker 2: one of the two co directors of the Overall Science Challenge,

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Speaker 2: what hope is there that the taxpayer will get value

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Speaker 2: for money or scientific knowledge will be advanced. And here's

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Speaker 2: the kicker. The project leaders openly admit that this isn't

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Speaker 2: even real research. They describe it as a way to

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Speaker 2: give Mari knowledge equal footing with science, claiming it doesn't

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Speaker 2: need to meet scientific standards because it's about restoring maudi,

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Speaker 2: that is life force, rather than achieving measurable effective results.

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Speaker 2: Now it is more than that, but I think you

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Speaker 2: get the drift. So within a few moments we will

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Speaker 2: join Peter Bagoshian. So what is the one thing that

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Speaker 2: people are not talking about in this country?

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Speaker 3: The Maori's indigenous ways of knowing? We're not being honest

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Speaker 3: about that, and the fact that the Maori have been

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Speaker 3: a stagnant society around for people keep exaggerating it. The

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Speaker 3: longer we go on, the more people make preposterous claims

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Speaker 3: of how long the mari have been around as indigenous

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Speaker 3: people here. And the fact that stagnant societies like the Maoris,

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Speaker 3: like the Marii society, is something to be proud of.

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Speaker 3: It's not something to be proud of. Being stagnant and

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Speaker 3: a miserated and having no method of error correction, or

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Speaker 3: no fruits of the Enlightenment, or no freedom of expression,

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Speaker 3: freedom of the press. These are not things to be

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Speaker 3: proud of. Quite bluntly, anybody who says so should be.

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Speaker 3: There are things to be ashamed of as a culture,

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Speaker 3: not a genetics, not a race, but as a culture.

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Speaker 3: It's not a good thing to be a stagnant society

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Speaker 3: for X thousands of years.

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Speaker 2: So you've been in the country for about two months, correct,

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Speaker 2: and you picked that up when you first came. I

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Speaker 2: picked that up.

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Speaker 3: You know. I was tuned into the whole Maori the

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Speaker 3: controversy around the listener letter and the Maori ways of knowing.

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Speaker 3: I interviewed Elizabeth Ratza and Kendall and other people. And

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Speaker 3: I'm just stunned by how people have a kind of

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Speaker 3: deference to anything and everything with the word Maori in it.

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Speaker 3: They're not speaking openly and honestly about tribal violence. They're

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Speaker 3: not speaking openly and honestly about the fact that a

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Speaker 3: society has pretty much remained unchanged. They're not speaking honestly

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Speaker 3: and openly about anything. They're to their cowards to in fear.

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Speaker 3: And everybody knows it, just no one speaks it. When

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Speaker 3: you say everybody knows it, how do you know it?

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Speaker 3: I mean, how do you know that they know it?

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Speaker 3: Because they'll give pause, or they'll prevaricate, or they'll obfuscate,

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Speaker 3: or they'll change the subject. But when you bring them

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Speaker 3: back around to the conversation, they'll at some point, if

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Speaker 3: you press them long enough with questions, they'll just say

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Speaker 3: I don't want to talk about it, or we shouldn't

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Speaker 3: talk about it, and they'll make an explicit acknowledgment that

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Speaker 3: they just don't want to talk about it. But you know,

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Speaker 3: to paraphrase Feineman, the the easiest person to.

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Speaker 2: Fool is yourself Fineman, the scientist. Yeah, the easiest.

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Speaker 3: Person to fool is yourself and not talking about your

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Speaker 3: problems does not make them go away, It only exacerbates them.

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Speaker 3: So the problems with you know, and then you're trying

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Speaker 3: to fix the problem on the back end with affirmative action,

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Speaker 3: with diversity initiatives. Those are neo colonial American exports. You're

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Speaker 3: trying to fix the problem on the back end, but

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Speaker 3: you're not being honest about the culture or the Maori culture.

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Speaker 3: You're just not being honest about it. I mean, you

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Speaker 3: can keep not being honest.

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Speaker 2: About what's to be honest about.

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Speaker 3: Well, do you think it's a good thing that a

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Speaker 3: culture has been stagnant for thousands of years, not developed

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Speaker 3: basic technologies, dental technology, telecommunications, any kind of paved any

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Speaker 3: kind of modern technological infrastructure, medicine. These aren't good things.

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Speaker 3: There's there's nothing to be lauded. There nothing, And the

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Speaker 3: people who loud it should be ashamed of themselves. They're

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Speaker 3: keeping people miserated. They're making a virtue of being a misery.

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Speaker 3: Who's doing that identitarian left, the left, but the whole society.

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Speaker 3: I see the whole society in the grips of this,

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Speaker 3: being terrified of being honest about the Maori. Again, I

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Speaker 3: have harbor no animus against the Maori. And it's again

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Speaker 3: I want to make crystal clear, I don't think that

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Speaker 3: this is a genetic thing. I think this is strictly cultural.

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Speaker 2: All right, let's run through a couple of things. Sure,

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Speaker 2: it is only recently, including the first podcast of this

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Speaker 2: year when I when I made a comment that I

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Speaker 2: came here forty forty five years ago to this country

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Speaker 2: and people were talking about marry issues. Yeah, constantly, there

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Speaker 2: was problem here and the problem there, and they had

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Speaker 2: you know, they weren't getting this, and they weren't get

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Speaker 2: it was it was a it was almost a full

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Speaker 2: time conversation. Here we are forty plus years later. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and as far as I'm concerned, nothing's changed, because really.

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Speaker 3: Okay, of course it hasn't changed, because the only way

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Speaker 3: to change, the only way to solve a problem is

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Speaker 3: to be honest about it. You can keep dancing around

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Speaker 3: the problem or keep lying about the problem, but that's

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Speaker 3: not going to make the problem go away. That's actually

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Speaker 3: going to make the problem more difficult to solve, and

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Speaker 3: then you're going to have to jerry rig outcomes on

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Speaker 3: the back end. So, for example, you're going to have

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Speaker 3: to demean things that we have developed in our culture

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Speaker 3: that we know work. We know the meritocracy works. We

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Speaker 3: know it works. I mean, just look at the California

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Speaker 3: fires as a recent example of dea I hires and

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Speaker 3: deranged firefighters. You know, needing more women, female lesbians as firefighters. No,

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Speaker 3: so you can't fix the problem on the back end

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Speaker 3: by creating spaces for individuals who are indigenous people who

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Speaker 3: don't get in on the basis of merit I mean,

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Speaker 3: that's a recipe for the decline, the rapid decline of civilization,

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Speaker 3: because you're undermining what you know works. These are just

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Speaker 3: to be clear, I do not consider this to be

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Speaker 3: I know people are going to be just to be

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Speaker 3: a conservative value. This is not a conservative value.

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Speaker 2: Well what is it? I don't want to put boids

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Speaker 2: in your mouth.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. An enlightenment value, a value of falsifiability,

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Speaker 3: a value of something that's been tested and tried. I mean,

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Speaker 3: meritocracy work.

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Speaker 2: We just know where nobody wants to go to.

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Speaker 3: People will lie to you and they'll say, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I'll fly in a place if the plane, if the

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Speaker 3: pilot was a diversity higher. But if you say to them,

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Speaker 3: what would you put your kid in the plane? You

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Speaker 3: have two choices. You know that the pilot has been

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Speaker 3: hired as a means of by an honest, meritocratic system

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Speaker 3: one pilot and the other pilot was a diversity higher

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Speaker 3: Who are you going to put your kid? You got

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Speaker 3: to get your kid from A to B, from Auckland

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Speaker 3: to christ Church. Who do you want flying the plane?

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Speaker 3: I mean, we know the meritocracy works. Do you want

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Speaker 3: your surgeon to be have have gotten there because of

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Speaker 3: the color of the skin or his last name? No,

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Speaker 3: that's truly insane. That's a recipe to destroy the whole civilization.

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Speaker 2: So let me ask you then about your thoughts on IQ.

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Speaker 2: What would you say about the about the IQ of

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Speaker 2: different different racial groupings around the world. Does it vary?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's out of my area of expertise. That's

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Speaker 3: the one thing that literally nobody can talk about. It's

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Speaker 3: very difficult to parse out those issues. Let me say this,

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Speaker 3: I think it was Krick said, there's no reason to

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Speaker 3: believe people whose ancestors have been subject to different evolutionary

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Speaker 3: pressures would have similar kind of cognitive attributes. It's outside

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Speaker 3: my domain of expertise. I can't say. But one thing

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Speaker 3: that I can say is, even if it's conclusively found,

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Speaker 3: as Richard Hayter and Charles Murray and others have argued

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Speaker 3: that there are direct cause or relationships between where one's

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Speaker 3: ancestors were from and iq r G. More generally, that

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Speaker 3: doesn't mean you should treat an individual based differently based

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Speaker 3: upon that data, because there are always outliers for that.

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Speaker 3: But it's just another thing that we're not being honest

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Speaker 3: about it. And I can already tell you what's happening.

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Speaker 3: We're hiding IQ data or we're not letting allowing people

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Speaker 3: to research that because we don't.

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Speaker 2: If you truly believe.

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Speaker 3: Like if you genuinely, from the bottom of your heart

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Speaker 3: believed that there were no racial differences in IQ, you

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Speaker 3: should be screaming from the rooftop that we demand a

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Speaker 3: rigorous investigation of this with the best available tools and

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Speaker 3: scientific methods. But no, they're not doing that. They're claiming that,

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Speaker 3: you know, this is an ethical we can't do this,

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Speaker 3: This is hurtful.

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Speaker 2: So that tells you right there that the people don't

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Speaker 2: believe it. Are you talking about here or are you

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Speaker 2: talking about it anyway? In general?

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Speaker 3: You know I'm talking primarily in the well in the anglosphere,

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Speaker 3: but in the United States in particular.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's really.

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Speaker 3: The last thing, that's really the last taboo, because there's

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Speaker 3: there's kind of cultural relativism. There's no reason to believe

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Speaker 3: that all cultures are the same. In fact, by definition,

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Speaker 3: there's some people do some things better in their cultures

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Speaker 3: than others. But when you're talking about IQ, you're talking

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Speaker 3: about an immutable characteristic. I mean, it's really interesting if

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Speaker 3: you look at the data on you know, Nobel Prize winners,

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Speaker 3: for example, the overwhelming majority haven't been just Jews, but

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Speaker 3: Askanazi Jews. Stephen Pinker, the Harvard psychologist, has done some

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Speaker 3: really interesting work on identical as well as other people.

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Speaker 3: Identical twins separated at birth. So identical twins separated at birth. There,

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Speaker 3: you know, with the Gaussian distribution of Caucasians with one hundred.

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Speaker 2: Being in the mean.

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Speaker 3: Heredity had and again heredity and race or different concepts.

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Speaker 3: But if heredity had nothing to do with it, you

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Speaker 3: would expect that if you could pluck two people off

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Speaker 3: the street, their IQ would be identical. Then identical twins

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Speaker 3: separate at birth, there'd be eight points but identical twins

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Speaker 3: separated birth are only four points difference. So that shows

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Speaker 3: you that it has something to do with that. Genetics

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Speaker 3: have some and again those are not those terms are

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Speaker 3: not interchangeable. But genetics has something to do with it.

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Speaker 3: But again, we're not talking about it. We're not being

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Speaker 3: honest about the nature of the problem. We're just not

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Speaker 3: talking about it.

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Speaker 2: There's a row of books behind you, all written by

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Speaker 2: Thomas Soul. I love Thomas sol indeed. Yeah, and he

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Speaker 2: is a prime example of how you can succeed if

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Speaker 2: even though people think you fall into a lower category

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Speaker 2: of whatever you're thinking of talking about. Yeah, so we should,

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Speaker 2: we should.

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Speaker 3: Just so you know, Thomas Soul just defines a conservative

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Speaker 3: as someone who wants to conserve the society. That's why

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Speaker 3: I said, this isn't a conservative point of view. I

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Speaker 3: don't think wanting to conserve a culture that is stagnant

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Speaker 3: for thousands of years is a good thing.

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Speaker 2: And nobody. The fact that people are.

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Speaker 3: Not willing to admit something that is so incredibly obvious

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Speaker 3: on the face of it tells me that there's a

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Speaker 3: that people are just not being honest, they're just lying,

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Speaker 3: or that either that or they're just fund they're just

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Speaker 3: incredibly ignorant.

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Speaker 2: All right, So let's let's take a prime example in

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Speaker 2: this country. And it's not it's not solo of there

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Speaker 2: aren't enough married doctors. And I'm looking back behind us now,

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Speaker 2: but it's a bit of history. And so you make

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Speaker 2: it easier for them to get into medical school. Or

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Speaker 2: if you've got one hundred applicants for medical school and

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Speaker 2: you're only taking thirty, then you reload the you reload

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Speaker 2: the values of the applicants. Yeah, is that wrong?

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Speaker 3: Well, I mean if it's wrong in a number of

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Speaker 3: it's not just wrong morally. I mean because to do that,

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Speaker 3: if you only have a certain number of slots, then

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Speaker 3: by definition, you're discriminating against people on the basis of

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Speaker 3: their race. So that's a moral wrong. I don't believe

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Speaker 3: people should be discriminated against the base of their race.

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Speaker 2: But you're arguing the argument here is that there are

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Speaker 2: not enough of a particular race, and you've had the

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Speaker 2: problem in America recently with the Japanese.

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Speaker 3: That's not an argument, that's a claim. People are making

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Speaker 3: the claim that there should be more Maori physicians.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, so okay.

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Speaker 3: So if you want to do that, then the way

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Speaker 3: to do that it's a longer term solution that nobody Again,

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Speaker 3: I guess the emerging theme in this conversation is people

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Speaker 3: just don't want to be honest about it. You have

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Speaker 3: to provide everybody with a public education of the first rate.

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Speaker 3: That's John Rawls's ide the American philosophers.

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Speaker 2: But then you've got to make them go to go

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Speaker 2: to school and get the education that you're providing.

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Speaker 3: So if you wanted Jerry rig the outcome and say

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Speaker 3: well X number of people have to be Maori, then

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Speaker 3: the problem is that nobody is going to trust a

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Speaker 3: Maori physician because they're going to think they're all affirmative

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Speaker 3: action in and that if there are some wonderful Malori

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Speaker 3: physicians in the same way that there are some you know,

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Speaker 3: the best physicians, it's just taken as what people it's

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Speaker 3: just normative in the UK are people from India, but

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Speaker 3: they don't have asterisks over their heads.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: So if you do that, not only do you undermine

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Speaker 3: the meritocracy, not only is it racist, not only is

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Speaker 3: it unfair to those people. Not only are you not

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Speaker 3: going to improve patient outcomes, but you're going to achieve

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Speaker 3: exactly the opposite.

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Speaker 2: Of what you wanted to achieve.

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Speaker 3: People just aren't going to trust Mallory physicians, and why

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Speaker 3: should they because they didn't earn the position.

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Speaker 2: Well, the quote is something along the lines of give

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Speaker 2: them time and they learn. Great.

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Speaker 3: That doesn't mean that you need to It doesn't mean

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Speaker 3: that you need to throw away an entire system of

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Speaker 3: the things that you know what works. So that's the

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Speaker 3: other thing we're not being honest about. If you place

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Speaker 3: people in positions, assuming that there's some kind of a

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Speaker 3: competence hierarchy, if you place people in positions and I'm

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Speaker 3: not talking about like you know, writing, creative or something.

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Speaker 3: I'm talking about something that's something about which there's a

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Speaker 3: right and the wrong, like boxing or jiu jitsu or

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Speaker 3: something because of combats, but basketball or something. If you

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Speaker 3: do that, then you will have people who are not

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Speaker 3: capable of achieving those outcomes by definition, because they would

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Speaker 3: have already achieved the outcome. Now you could say long term,

387
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Speaker 3: they'll achieve the outcomes, but at any given time, like

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Speaker 3: time t you're going to be having physicians and pilots

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Speaker 3: and fire fighters, etc. Who are not capable of discharging

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Speaker 3: the responsibilities of their office. It's just that's what it

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Speaker 3: means to not hire some of the base of merit.

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Speaker 3: So you're undermining your whole civil not just your society,

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Speaker 3: the whole civilization. You're bowing to people, you're bowing in

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Speaker 3: a Again, as much as I try not to make

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Speaker 3: this to be political or ideological, it simply is you're

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Speaker 3: bowing to a group of leftists, you're bowing to radicals.

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Speaker 3: You're basically saying that people who have lived in a

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Speaker 3: stagnant society for thousands of years, there's something virtuous about that.

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Speaker 3: There's literally nothing virtuous about that, and anybody who argues

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Speaker 3: that there is should be ashamed of themselves. They're a charlatan.

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Speaker 3: They're just a fraud.

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Speaker 2: I don't think people have the capacity to realize that.

403
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Speaker 3: Well, if that's true, part of the reason is because

404
00:23:25,493 --> 00:23:28,253
Speaker 3: you're not having honest conversations about the nature of the problem.

405
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Speaker 3: You're just not No longer you don't have honest conversations,

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Speaker 3: Like you said, you've been here for forty years, the

407
00:23:34,373 --> 00:23:36,733
Speaker 3: more difficult it is going to be to solve the problem.

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Speaker 2: What about rates of.

409
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Speaker 3: Incidents of violence in these communities?

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Speaker 2: What are you gonna do?

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Speaker 3: Just ignore them or say that's just their way of

412
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Speaker 3: knowing or and that's the other thing that the whole

413
00:23:46,733 --> 00:23:49,133
Speaker 3: idea that you want to would want to include something

414
00:23:49,133 --> 00:23:51,653
Speaker 3: in the canon of science that is simply not science

415
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Speaker 3: because you want to be deferential to certain groups of

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Speaker 3: people's collective sensibilities. That's completely insane. That's my friend Gad.

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Speaker 3: Sad would call that suicidal empathy.

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Speaker 2: By the way, speaking of GED's head, Yeah, what's his

419
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Speaker 2: best word?

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Speaker 3: To consumer instinct? I think was really a great book.

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Speaker 3: He has another book that's coming out. I haven't read

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00:24:13,333 --> 00:24:15,453
Speaker 3: that yet. I think it's still in the process of

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Speaker 3: being written. It's almost completed now. But he's an evolutionary

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Speaker 3: psychologist who's done some phenomenal work with consumer behavior. I'm

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Speaker 3: going to do an event with him, i think in

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Speaker 3: two weeks at the University of Austin.

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Speaker 2: The reason I'm interested in, Gad said, is because I

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Speaker 2: bought The Parasitic Mind only just recently, great book. Phenomenal

429
00:24:35,213 --> 00:24:38,453
Speaker 2: sec of books just over there are all new, and

430
00:24:38,573 --> 00:24:41,213
Speaker 2: I'm just itching for the time to get into that now.

431
00:24:41,253 --> 00:24:44,133
Speaker 2: He's fantastic. It's a fantastic there's my hobby over the

432
00:24:44,173 --> 00:24:46,693
Speaker 2: Christmas holidays, It's my hobby all year, but I made

433
00:24:46,693 --> 00:24:48,573
Speaker 2: it a bigger hobby over the Christmas holidays to buy

434
00:24:48,653 --> 00:24:52,133
Speaker 2: more books the parasitic mind, How infectious ideas are killing

435
00:24:52,413 --> 00:24:56,853
Speaker 2: common sense? Correct? The guy's a genius, He's great. So

436
00:24:56,893 --> 00:25:00,293
Speaker 2: I'm avoiding another aspect of this discussion for the moment.

437
00:25:00,373 --> 00:25:02,053
Speaker 2: I want to postpone it because it's more to be

438
00:25:02,093 --> 00:25:06,293
Speaker 2: said in the vein that we're discussing. Take Austraight in

439
00:25:06,333 --> 00:25:12,413
Speaker 2: Aborigines as an example. During the vacation period, I drove

440
00:25:12,613 --> 00:25:15,253
Speaker 2: Carolyn and a couple of friends to a place in

441
00:25:15,333 --> 00:25:18,813
Speaker 2: New South Wales where I lived for a couple of years,

442
00:25:19,013 --> 00:25:21,453
Speaker 2: three years actually, when I was in six and nine,

443
00:25:21,653 --> 00:25:25,213
Speaker 2: and it's basically countrified. And we drove down the street

444
00:25:25,373 --> 00:25:28,333
Speaker 2: and I said, that house there was the house that

445
00:25:28,493 --> 00:25:31,333
Speaker 2: was the home of the only Aboriginal in the school

446
00:25:31,373 --> 00:25:33,533
Speaker 2: that I went to, primary school that I went to.

447
00:25:34,053 --> 00:25:37,173
Speaker 2: And they made the exceptions for him with his footwear

448
00:25:37,333 --> 00:25:41,173
Speaker 2: because his toes were already splayed and he wouldn't he

449
00:25:41,253 --> 00:25:43,213
Speaker 2: refused to wear shoes, and they tried to get into

450
00:25:43,253 --> 00:25:46,253
Speaker 2: wear shoes and he wouldn't wear shoes, so they made

451
00:25:46,293 --> 00:25:49,933
Speaker 2: exceptions for him. But he was he was not adopted.

452
00:25:50,493 --> 00:25:55,413
Speaker 2: He was taken in under some scheme. It wasn't he

453
00:25:55,453 --> 00:25:57,173
Speaker 2: wasn't living there with his parents, and so he was

454
00:25:57,213 --> 00:25:59,413
Speaker 2: being taught the European way, if you like, or the

455
00:25:59,413 --> 00:26:02,733
Speaker 2: advanced way of living. Now in the end, he left

456
00:26:02,813 --> 00:26:05,733
Speaker 2: because he didn't fit in. Now, I can't tell you,

457
00:26:05,853 --> 00:26:09,653
Speaker 2: because of the age that I was exactly what went on,

458
00:26:09,733 --> 00:26:12,533
Speaker 2: what happened. All I know is that one day he

459
00:26:12,613 --> 00:26:15,533
Speaker 2: just didn't come back to school. So what I'm really

460
00:26:15,613 --> 00:26:21,453
Speaker 2: driving at is how do you transition the knowledge from

461
00:26:21,613 --> 00:26:26,173
Speaker 2: one group to another when you're confronted with people who

462
00:26:26,253 --> 00:26:28,853
Speaker 2: who either don't want to know or won't let their

463
00:26:28,933 --> 00:26:32,013
Speaker 2: kids know, or what a live.

464
00:26:32,253 --> 00:26:34,693
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a great question. I mean I was just

465
00:26:34,853 --> 00:26:37,493
Speaker 3: in spent some time in Romania, and I was talking

466
00:26:37,493 --> 00:26:39,773
Speaker 3: to people they used to be called Gypsies, they are

467
00:26:39,773 --> 00:26:41,853
Speaker 3: called Roma now who.

468
00:26:43,053 --> 00:26:44,173
Speaker 2: Kind of blew my mind.

469
00:26:43,973 --> 00:26:45,333
Speaker 3: With some of the things that he told me. I

470
00:26:45,373 --> 00:26:47,573
Speaker 3: was asking him about problems with I don't know if

471
00:26:47,613 --> 00:26:50,653
Speaker 3: I can swear on your show, but right, problems with

472
00:26:50,773 --> 00:26:53,453
Speaker 3: the you know, the Roma encounter, and he said, you know,

473
00:26:53,533 --> 00:26:55,213
Speaker 3: one of the problems is you need to fill out

474
00:26:56,173 --> 00:27:00,413
Speaker 3: on paper for applications for things like licenses, and they

475
00:27:00,493 --> 00:27:03,853
Speaker 3: just cannot. And this guy was an advocate for these folks.

476
00:27:05,013 --> 00:27:08,053
Speaker 3: They have tremendous difficulty writing between the lines. I mean,

477
00:27:08,613 --> 00:27:13,173
Speaker 3: such strong cultural bonds of the things that they value

478
00:27:13,573 --> 00:27:18,693
Speaker 3: that are completely normative in those societies, and yet we

479
00:27:18,773 --> 00:27:22,293
Speaker 3: don't live by the rules that they live by. The

480
00:27:22,413 --> 00:27:24,773
Speaker 3: key is not to bow or to bend your whole

481
00:27:24,813 --> 00:27:26,693
Speaker 3: society to that. The key is that you have to

482
00:27:26,693 --> 00:27:29,373
Speaker 3: have certain values like well, you know, people have to

483
00:27:29,413 --> 00:27:33,013
Speaker 3: have shoes, people have to be dressed when they go

484
00:27:33,053 --> 00:27:36,813
Speaker 3: to school. Now, if the argument is well, you've been

485
00:27:36,853 --> 00:27:39,653
Speaker 3: wrong about things in the past, that's one hundred percent correct.

486
00:27:39,733 --> 00:27:41,493
Speaker 3: We have been wrong about things in the past, and

487
00:27:41,933 --> 00:27:44,893
Speaker 3: we've treated people of different races horribly, and that's something

488
00:27:44,893 --> 00:27:48,093
Speaker 3: that we should talk about. You know, what does that entail?

489
00:27:48,173 --> 00:27:48,893
Speaker 3: Does that entail?

490
00:27:49,253 --> 00:27:49,453
Speaker 2: Now?

491
00:27:49,493 --> 00:27:52,533
Speaker 3: People think in entails reparations or homosexuals, Like, we have

492
00:27:52,613 --> 00:27:55,013
Speaker 3: done some pretty terrible things to people in the past,

493
00:27:55,493 --> 00:27:57,413
Speaker 3: But that's not a reason to throw away the norms

494
00:27:57,453 --> 00:28:01,133
Speaker 3: of civil society, right. That's that the bigotry of low

495
00:28:01,173 --> 00:28:05,053
Speaker 3: expectations is expecting that people who are indigenous can't put

496
00:28:05,053 --> 00:28:07,333
Speaker 3: shoes on their feet. I mean, that's completely insane. Anybody

497
00:28:07,333 --> 00:28:09,333
Speaker 3: can put shoes on their feet. I mean they maybe

498
00:28:09,333 --> 00:28:11,373
Speaker 3: they don't have a value of putting shoes on their feet.

499
00:28:11,373 --> 00:28:15,653
Speaker 3: But public schools are by definition public and their public institutions,

500
00:28:15,653 --> 00:28:18,213
Speaker 3: and there are certain norms that people should adhere to

501
00:28:18,293 --> 00:28:22,573
Speaker 3: when they participate in and function in civil society, and

502
00:28:22,573 --> 00:28:26,693
Speaker 3: that that shouldn't be even remotely controversial, but evidently it is.

503
00:28:27,893 --> 00:28:29,453
Speaker 3: You know, I just gave a talk to the University

504
00:28:29,493 --> 00:28:34,253
Speaker 3: of Ucklhand. Evidently there's some people upset about my upset

505
00:28:34,253 --> 00:28:38,253
Speaker 3: about me going there and speaking to the faculty. And

506
00:28:38,453 --> 00:28:40,413
Speaker 3: I said, well, let's tell them to come home and

507
00:28:40,453 --> 00:28:43,013
Speaker 3: they'll give I'll just talk to them the whole time.

508
00:28:43,053 --> 00:28:44,733
Speaker 3: I'll give them the hopeful you disagree with me, you

509
00:28:44,733 --> 00:28:47,013
Speaker 3: come to the front line. But they can't do that

510
00:28:47,293 --> 00:28:50,973
Speaker 3: because they themselves are kind of epistemic victims. They themselves

511
00:28:51,013 --> 00:28:53,453
Speaker 3: are trapped in their own web of deceit and lies,

512
00:28:53,973 --> 00:28:57,333
Speaker 3: and they're they're really they're trying to institutionalize these ideas

513
00:28:57,453 --> 00:28:59,773
Speaker 3: virtue signal that they believe these things, think that they're

514
00:28:59,813 --> 00:29:03,133
Speaker 3: better people, so they don't participate in dialogue. Okay, well,

515
00:29:03,173 --> 00:29:06,613
Speaker 3: then then you're contributing to the problem. You're contributing to

516
00:29:06,693 --> 00:29:09,213
Speaker 3: the Again, the best words admit of a miseration. You're

517
00:29:09,253 --> 00:29:12,493
Speaker 3: contributing to the miseration of the Maori. There's no reason

518
00:29:12,573 --> 00:29:15,373
Speaker 3: people anybody can put shoes on their feet. And if

519
00:29:15,413 --> 00:29:18,813
Speaker 3: the kid legitimately can't afford shoes, I guess this is

520
00:29:18,853 --> 00:29:24,973
Speaker 3: my leftist impulse for economics, then then the school should

521
00:29:24,933 --> 00:29:27,933
Speaker 3: buy them shoes. If a kid can't afford healthcare, I mean,

522
00:29:27,973 --> 00:29:29,693
Speaker 3: I guess I'm a leftist in that sense too. I

523
00:29:29,773 --> 00:29:31,653
Speaker 3: think that anybody up to the age of eighteen to

524
00:29:31,733 --> 00:29:34,533
Speaker 3: twenty one should be afforded public health care.

525
00:29:34,573 --> 00:29:38,733
Speaker 2: What's your angle on school lunches.

526
00:29:39,733 --> 00:29:44,493
Speaker 3: Well, again, so the view that I adopt, and I

527
00:29:44,533 --> 00:29:48,493
Speaker 3: strongly believe that this is a rationally derivable view, is

528
00:29:48,533 --> 00:29:51,893
Speaker 3: that John Rawlsey interview. We shouldn't try to fix outcomes

529
00:29:51,973 --> 00:29:56,333
Speaker 3: through affirmative action or diversity hires. We should so it's

530
00:29:56,333 --> 00:29:58,413
Speaker 3: not a quality of outcome. We don't want so many

531
00:29:58,493 --> 00:30:01,973
Speaker 3: physicians to our Maori. We want opportunities for people. We

532
00:30:02,013 --> 00:30:04,493
Speaker 3: want a quality of opportunity. And the best way to

533
00:30:04,493 --> 00:30:07,133
Speaker 3: give a quality of opportunity, for example, in school lunches

534
00:30:07,213 --> 00:30:09,413
Speaker 3: is everybody should not only have public education in the

535
00:30:09,413 --> 00:30:12,613
Speaker 3: first rate. But everybody should have fantastic food, they should

536
00:30:12,613 --> 00:30:14,773
Speaker 3: have great vegila, and if that means that we have

537
00:30:14,933 --> 00:30:15,973
Speaker 3: higher taxes.

538
00:30:15,693 --> 00:30:18,293
Speaker 2: Then will so be it. But that is when you

539
00:30:18,373 --> 00:30:19,093
Speaker 2: have when you.

540
00:30:19,093 --> 00:30:20,773
Speaker 3: Try to do the best that you can as a

541
00:30:20,813 --> 00:30:23,573
Speaker 3: society to have strong institutions to level the playing field.

542
00:30:23,973 --> 00:30:26,213
Speaker 3: And then if you don't have Maori doctors, you don't

543
00:30:26,213 --> 00:30:28,173
Speaker 3: have them. But you don't try to just make more

544
00:30:28,173 --> 00:30:31,213
Speaker 3: Maori doctors by admitting then people who aren't qualified. You

545
00:30:31,293 --> 00:30:34,773
Speaker 3: try to give young people a quality of opportunities so

546
00:30:34,853 --> 00:30:38,533
Speaker 3: they can rise and achieve in the society and then

547
00:30:38,973 --> 00:30:40,213
Speaker 3: let the chips fall where they may.

548
00:30:40,853 --> 00:30:44,373
Speaker 2: How do you break the custom hold on groups of

549
00:30:44,373 --> 00:30:48,533
Speaker 2: people growing up with and being can I say brainwashed

550
00:30:48,733 --> 00:30:54,213
Speaker 2: with customing habits? Well, we're all brainwashed and indoctrinated with

551
00:30:54,413 --> 00:30:58,093
Speaker 2: with you know, you're you're talking about escaping escaping the

552
00:30:58,133 --> 00:31:01,293
Speaker 2: thousand years true, and if you're going to have them

553
00:31:01,493 --> 00:31:05,933
Speaker 2: as part of your initial education first seven years stuff,

554
00:31:06,133 --> 00:31:07,733
Speaker 2: then how do they break out of that?

555
00:31:08,813 --> 00:31:12,573
Speaker 3: I said, very it's a very complicated question. The number

556
00:31:12,653 --> 00:31:15,493
Speaker 3: one thing is that you don't have people And again

557
00:31:15,533 --> 00:31:18,333
Speaker 3: I'm trying to not make this political or ideological but

558
00:31:18,373 --> 00:31:21,733
Speaker 3: it just simply is. And I'll criticize the right in

559
00:31:21,773 --> 00:31:24,573
Speaker 3: a minute. You don't have people on the left saying, oh,

560
00:31:25,453 --> 00:31:27,533
Speaker 3: you know, they're not good enough, we need to lower

561
00:31:27,533 --> 00:31:31,413
Speaker 3: the standards. You don't have people who patronize them on

562
00:31:31,493 --> 00:31:34,133
Speaker 3: the left. You don't have people who make exceptions or excuses.

563
00:31:34,853 --> 00:31:37,613
Speaker 3: You treat everybody fairly. I guess on the right you

564
00:31:37,693 --> 00:31:41,053
Speaker 3: see a kind of I think the right, at least

565
00:31:41,053 --> 00:31:42,693
Speaker 3: I can't speak to this country, but the right in

566
00:31:42,693 --> 00:31:45,493
Speaker 3: America has been a catastrophic failure on that. They're just

567
00:31:46,093 --> 00:31:49,133
Speaker 3: expecting that people who come from you know, this isn't

568
00:31:49,173 --> 00:31:53,973
Speaker 3: only racial people who come from poor socioeconomic backgrounds, broken homes,

569
00:31:53,973 --> 00:31:57,853
Speaker 3: et cetera. They're expecting them to just achieve. In Detroit,

570
00:31:57,933 --> 00:32:00,213
Speaker 3: certain school systems in Detroit, people have to bring in

571
00:32:00,253 --> 00:32:06,933
Speaker 3: their own toilet paper. That's a public disgrace, right, yeah,

572
00:32:06,973 --> 00:32:09,093
Speaker 3: it's a disgrace. It's as can tell you a crazy

573
00:32:09,093 --> 00:32:12,333
Speaker 3: story about my kids school. You met my son who

574
00:32:13,013 --> 00:32:15,733
Speaker 3: they closed all the men's rooms in the schools, so

575
00:32:15,773 --> 00:32:18,293
Speaker 3: they had to go to someplace else when they wanted

576
00:32:18,333 --> 00:32:19,933
Speaker 3: to use the restroom, the toilets.

577
00:32:19,933 --> 00:32:21,693
Speaker 2: But I think the right has been.

578
00:32:21,613 --> 00:32:26,973
Speaker 3: A failure, and they've not funded or gave adequate funding

579
00:32:27,733 --> 00:32:29,893
Speaker 3: to the things they should have. And as a consequence

580
00:32:29,893 --> 00:32:33,013
Speaker 3: for that, we get a bunch of truly, truly crazy

581
00:32:33,053 --> 00:32:38,493
Speaker 3: people on the left advocating completely insane ideas, and that

582
00:32:38,613 --> 00:32:42,013
Speaker 3: has That was a spell that was cast over the

583
00:32:42,053 --> 00:32:44,973
Speaker 3: whole society. That only now was Trump is at being loosened.

584
00:32:45,373 --> 00:32:50,613
Speaker 3: The diversity, equity, inclusion, the well, anything that falls under

585
00:32:50,653 --> 00:32:51,173
Speaker 3: that umbrella.

586
00:32:51,293 --> 00:32:53,613
Speaker 2: You don't think you're racing too well the finish line

587
00:32:53,653 --> 00:32:54,053
Speaker 2: too early.

588
00:32:54,893 --> 00:32:57,053
Speaker 3: No, I think these people, I think the average American

589
00:32:57,093 --> 00:33:00,453
Speaker 3: is sick of it. But I do think that the bureaucrats,

590
00:33:00,493 --> 00:33:04,493
Speaker 3: the apparatuic chicks are still in the institutions. They're still

591
00:33:04,533 --> 00:33:07,533
Speaker 3: in the educational institutions. They're still in colleges of education

592
00:33:07,613 --> 00:33:10,093
Speaker 3: and teacher training programs. And it's is going to take

593
00:33:10,133 --> 00:33:15,293
Speaker 3: a long time to finally extirpate the last vestiges of

594
00:33:15,333 --> 00:33:18,853
Speaker 3: the derangement syndrome that's overtaken us. It's going to take

595
00:33:18,853 --> 00:33:21,493
Speaker 3: a while, but Trump has. I mean, if you've seen

596
00:33:21,493 --> 00:33:23,653
Speaker 3: the videos of like Trump going or random places like

597
00:33:23,813 --> 00:33:27,573
Speaker 3: La casinos, I'm not La. Yeah, people are cheering him,

598
00:33:27,573 --> 00:33:30,733
Speaker 3: et cetera. Like I think he has right now, he

599
00:33:30,813 --> 00:33:34,933
Speaker 3: has he certainly has the mandate by votes. But you know,

600
00:33:35,133 --> 00:33:36,253
Speaker 3: you know, and that's the other thing. A lot of

601
00:33:36,253 --> 00:33:37,973
Speaker 3: these people are on the run. They know he's coming

602
00:33:38,013 --> 00:33:40,853
Speaker 3: for them, they know he's and they should be terrified

603
00:33:41,373 --> 00:33:44,933
Speaker 3: because they've thrown the whole society in assesspool for fifteen

604
00:33:45,013 --> 00:33:46,733
Speaker 3: at least fifteen years, probably twenty.

605
00:33:47,173 --> 00:33:49,693
Speaker 2: Where would you start with accountability for that?

606
00:33:51,493 --> 00:33:55,733
Speaker 3: It's hard because the people when you've changed the raison

607
00:33:55,813 --> 00:33:59,293
Speaker 3: detra of the institutions, when you've you've changed the mission

608
00:33:59,293 --> 00:34:04,493
Speaker 3: of the institutions, they these folks believe that they're accountable

609
00:34:05,573 --> 00:34:09,973
Speaker 3: to you know, you mentioned Gad said pretty much exogenous values.

610
00:34:10,013 --> 00:34:13,453
Speaker 3: You know, these are values that have paresthetized liberalism. I

611
00:34:13,453 --> 00:34:15,573
Speaker 3: wrote about that in my first book in twenty thirteen.

612
00:34:16,253 --> 00:34:21,053
Speaker 3: These are not values that are endemic to liberalism, you know,

613
00:34:21,133 --> 00:34:22,133
Speaker 3: the idea that.

614
00:34:22,653 --> 00:34:24,493
Speaker 2: It By and large, they b.

615
00:34:26,053 --> 00:34:30,693
Speaker 3: They bartered class for race and gender, and so they're

616
00:34:30,813 --> 00:34:33,893
Speaker 3: obsessed with anything that has an identity level salience because

617
00:34:33,933 --> 00:34:37,013
Speaker 3: completely obsessed by it, and so they're willing to do

618
00:34:37,253 --> 00:34:42,213
Speaker 3: literally crazy things like completely destroy institutions, destroy the family,

619
00:34:42,373 --> 00:34:43,773
Speaker 3: like truly crazy things.

620
00:34:44,213 --> 00:34:46,613
Speaker 2: And what makes them what drives them to do that.

621
00:34:47,053 --> 00:34:49,053
Speaker 2: I mean, why do they do it, Why did they

622
00:34:49,053 --> 00:34:50,733
Speaker 2: do it? And why do they get the idea in

623
00:34:50,773 --> 00:34:53,853
Speaker 2: the first place? Then what drives them to try and

624
00:34:53,893 --> 00:34:56,773
Speaker 2: fulfill it? Are they aware of the damage they're doing.

625
00:34:57,413 --> 00:34:59,373
Speaker 3: No, they want to do the damage because they think

626
00:34:59,413 --> 00:35:04,773
Speaker 3: that the society itself is racist, patriarchal, homophobic, ableists.

627
00:35:04,813 --> 00:35:06,773
Speaker 2: Have you heard any arguments that count of that that

628
00:35:07,133 --> 00:35:09,013
Speaker 2: make you think, well, maybe they run.

629
00:35:09,653 --> 00:35:11,693
Speaker 3: Well, no, because they don't talk to you. They don't

630
00:35:11,733 --> 00:35:15,173
Speaker 3: engage in conversation, because conversation is as Aubrey Lord said,

631
00:35:15,773 --> 00:35:21,573
Speaker 3: the Master's tools cannot disable to dismantle the Master's house. Conversation, dialogue, dialectic,

632
00:35:22,373 --> 00:35:24,133
Speaker 3: all of those things at the root of the problem.

633
00:35:24,213 --> 00:35:24,533
Speaker 2: That's why.

634
00:35:24,613 --> 00:35:26,093
Speaker 3: One of the reasons they don't talk to you, that's

635
00:35:26,133 --> 00:35:28,493
Speaker 3: one of the reasons they so. My writing partner, my

636
00:35:28,533 --> 00:35:31,453
Speaker 3: primary writing partner, James Lindsay, is coming to New Zealand,

637
00:35:31,493 --> 00:35:34,533
Speaker 3: to Auckland and around New Zealand next month. And I

638
00:35:34,613 --> 00:35:37,533
Speaker 3: told Jonathan from the Free Speech Union that they brought

639
00:35:37,533 --> 00:35:40,053
Speaker 3: me down here on tour. I'm like, listen, he should

640
00:35:40,093 --> 00:35:42,253
Speaker 3: not be given any talks. I'll take exactly what he

641
00:35:42,253 --> 00:35:44,573
Speaker 3: should be doing. He should be debating people, and that's

642
00:35:44,573 --> 00:35:46,413
Speaker 3: what you should do every single day, seven days a week.

643
00:35:46,973 --> 00:35:48,813
Speaker 3: I think he's here for ten days or something. He

644
00:35:48,853 --> 00:35:50,773
Speaker 3: should just debate people, and you call him out, name

645
00:35:50,813 --> 00:35:53,493
Speaker 3: and shame him. I go after every single one of

646
00:35:53,533 --> 00:35:57,053
Speaker 3: these people, like the New Zealand Herald. I'd target every

647
00:35:57,093 --> 00:35:59,733
Speaker 3: single one of them, these far left maniacs who have

648
00:36:00,053 --> 00:36:02,933
Speaker 3: actively just tried to destroy the civilization, and I would

649
00:36:02,933 --> 00:36:04,973
Speaker 3: call him out. I would name and shame them, and

650
00:36:04,973 --> 00:36:06,933
Speaker 3: I would say, you want to play by the you

651
00:36:06,973 --> 00:36:09,453
Speaker 3: want to see at the adulta. You come and you

652
00:36:09,453 --> 00:36:11,933
Speaker 3: have a debate. We've brought our guy, let's go. They

653
00:36:11,933 --> 00:36:13,653
Speaker 3: won't do it. They won't do it because they're cowards,

654
00:36:13,693 --> 00:36:16,653
Speaker 3: and they know at some level that what they say

655
00:36:16,813 --> 00:36:21,093
Speaker 3: is not sustainable, it's not rationally drivable. It's conspicuously ideological.

656
00:36:21,133 --> 00:36:24,693
Speaker 3: And these people are not only intellectual midwies, but complete

657
00:36:24,733 --> 00:36:28,133
Speaker 3: cowards because if they weren't, but prove me wrong, prove

658
00:36:28,133 --> 00:36:30,773
Speaker 3: me wrong, great, prove me wrong. Have them come and debate. Jim,

659
00:36:31,013 --> 00:36:35,253
Speaker 3: you're not a coward. You think your ideas are rationally drivable.

660
00:36:35,293 --> 00:36:37,453
Speaker 3: You're not an idealogue. Great James Lindsay will be here

661
00:36:37,493 --> 00:36:38,933
Speaker 3: in March, we're going to set up debates.

662
00:36:39,133 --> 00:36:44,053
Speaker 2: Okay, here's I think this is a fair question. Sometimes

663
00:36:44,053 --> 00:36:47,653
Speaker 2: I hate being fair. You've got somebody who's coming who's

664
00:36:47,653 --> 00:36:51,533
Speaker 2: an expert, knowledge, speaking, power, approach everything. Right.

665
00:36:51,933 --> 00:36:54,053
Speaker 3: Well, he's a content knowledge expert.

666
00:36:54,573 --> 00:36:57,213
Speaker 2: So he's he's top of top of his grade, right.

667
00:36:58,453 --> 00:37:00,253
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean he's my writing partner, he's a

668
00:37:00,293 --> 00:37:03,973
Speaker 3: friend of mine, and I think so, okay, that's my opinion.

669
00:37:04,013 --> 00:37:06,813
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, so it's not everybody that can that can

670
00:37:06,973 --> 00:37:12,573
Speaker 2: argue successfully what they might think. Okay, so you're saying

671
00:37:12,613 --> 00:37:14,333
Speaker 2: that they should come along and be destroyed.

672
00:37:14,613 --> 00:37:16,573
Speaker 3: I'm saying that, Well, then maybe there's a reason to

673
00:37:16,973 --> 00:37:19,373
Speaker 3: reconsider what you believe. Maybe there's a reason to that's

674
00:37:19,373 --> 00:37:20,213
Speaker 3: a reason to be more.

675
00:37:20,173 --> 00:37:24,173
Speaker 2: Humble because you can you can have an opinion about something. Yeah,

676
00:37:24,613 --> 00:37:28,893
Speaker 2: believe believe something, but lack the ability to express that

677
00:37:28,933 --> 00:37:30,773
Speaker 2: appropriately in a verbal battle.

678
00:37:30,893 --> 00:37:33,933
Speaker 3: But belief is not binary. It's not on off, belief takes.

679
00:37:35,093 --> 00:37:38,013
Speaker 3: Belief is on like a Likert scale, strongly agree, agree,

680
00:37:38,093 --> 00:37:41,773
Speaker 3: Like that's just not how belief operates. But okay, we'll

681
00:37:41,773 --> 00:37:44,053
Speaker 3: give them ten guys. I'll put Jim against ten guys

682
00:37:44,093 --> 00:37:45,693
Speaker 3: from the New Zealand Herald. I'll call out the whole

683
00:37:45,693 --> 00:37:48,653
Speaker 3: New Zealand harold all of them, the editors and the staff,

684
00:37:49,013 --> 00:37:49,413
Speaker 3: all of them.

685
00:37:49,773 --> 00:37:52,213
Speaker 2: You any need to, and I can provide you with names. Yeah,

686
00:37:52,293 --> 00:37:54,613
Speaker 2: well give it. Okay, So there's something people in New

687
00:37:54,693 --> 00:37:56,813
Speaker 2: Zealand don't do. Name them. Go ahead, name them. I'll

688
00:37:56,893 --> 00:37:58,013
Speaker 2: name them. I'll tweet them out.

689
00:37:58,093 --> 00:38:01,333
Speaker 3: I'll personally challenge them to debate James lindsay, are they

690
00:38:01,413 --> 00:38:06,813
Speaker 3: left as maniacs? Are they identitarian lunatics? They're perfect. I

691
00:38:06,893 --> 00:38:10,293
Speaker 3: want them to feel what it's like for the damage

692
00:38:10,413 --> 00:38:13,573
Speaker 3: that they have caused, for the madness that they have

693
00:38:13,613 --> 00:38:15,973
Speaker 3: inflicted on society. Now I can't speak to these people

694
00:38:15,973 --> 00:38:19,093
Speaker 3: as individuals, but I can say that their ilk and

695
00:38:19,133 --> 00:38:22,413
Speaker 3: the legacy media, and the lies and the corruption they

696
00:38:22,453 --> 00:38:26,013
Speaker 3: have spread, and the fact that they've used their platform,

697
00:38:26,133 --> 00:38:30,333
Speaker 3: you know x formally Twitter has made the legacy media

698
00:38:31,013 --> 00:38:34,373
Speaker 3: irrelevant to a certain extent. But if you want to

699
00:38:34,413 --> 00:38:37,373
Speaker 3: make the claim that, okay, well some people can't defend

700
00:38:37,413 --> 00:38:39,893
Speaker 3: what they believe, then my response to you is maybe

701
00:38:40,013 --> 00:38:40,893
Speaker 3: they shouldn't believe it.

702
00:38:41,413 --> 00:38:42,213
Speaker 2: I'm an atheist.

703
00:38:42,413 --> 00:38:45,093
Speaker 3: I could put out a tweet or something tomorrow saying

704
00:38:45,133 --> 00:38:47,693
Speaker 3: I'm leaving Auckland in a week. I would like to

705
00:38:47,733 --> 00:38:52,093
Speaker 3: debate Christians. I would like to challenge Christians. I literally

706
00:38:52,173 --> 00:38:53,813
Speaker 3: I could do that round. I have a one hundred Christians

707
00:38:53,853 --> 00:38:56,333
Speaker 3: lining up to debate me. I guarantee you, I can

708
00:38:56,373 --> 00:38:59,733
Speaker 3: tell you with total confidence that's true. The apologists would

709
00:38:59,733 --> 00:39:02,453
Speaker 3: come out of the woodwork. You cannot do that with

710
00:39:02,533 --> 00:39:07,133
Speaker 3: the identitarian left. I mean, look, the New Zealand Herald

711
00:39:07,813 --> 00:39:11,293
Speaker 3: is a discretion race. It's just a disgrace. It's an

712
00:39:11,333 --> 00:39:14,613
Speaker 3: it's it's filled with ideologues. It's like the Guardian. The

713
00:39:14,693 --> 00:39:17,813
Speaker 3: Guardian is is just a an organ of the Democratic

714
00:39:17,853 --> 00:39:22,213
Speaker 3: Party of Labor. I mean that's you have to call

715
00:39:22,253 --> 00:39:25,053
Speaker 3: these people out. You can't push, you can't push your

716
00:39:25,053 --> 00:39:26,813
Speaker 3: foot around. You just have to call them out.

717
00:39:26,893 --> 00:39:30,973
Speaker 2: You do realize there is a there's another media athletic

718
00:39:31,053 --> 00:39:31,693
Speaker 2: that's worth.

719
00:39:32,133 --> 00:39:36,093
Speaker 3: Which one stuff. Well, let's let's get them to debate too.

720
00:39:36,173 --> 00:39:37,893
Speaker 3: Let's get them with James Lindsay.

721
00:39:37,773 --> 00:39:40,613
Speaker 2: They want debate, they want, they want, they want print

722
00:39:40,653 --> 00:39:43,093
Speaker 2: you later, they want they won't give you the space.

723
00:39:43,453 --> 00:39:46,013
Speaker 3: Okay, then you know what would make make a rational

724
00:39:46,053 --> 00:39:48,173
Speaker 3: person respect them? If they say, listen, you know we're

725
00:39:48,213 --> 00:39:50,373
Speaker 3: not going to debate because we're ideologues. We have no

726
00:39:50,453 --> 00:39:52,973
Speaker 3: reason to believe what we're going to we believe other

727
00:39:53,013 --> 00:39:55,293
Speaker 3: than it make it gives us status that we jockey

728
00:39:55,293 --> 00:39:58,373
Speaker 3: for in our own communities. If you said that, if

729
00:39:58,413 --> 00:40:02,053
Speaker 3: they came out and said that, okay, we're conspicuous ideologues,

730
00:40:02,093 --> 00:40:04,613
Speaker 3: there's really no reason to believe it. We just want

731
00:40:04,613 --> 00:40:07,853
Speaker 3: to gain, we want a virtue signal. Okay, great, that's

732
00:40:08,013 --> 00:40:10,773
Speaker 3: then they're honest. So they're also dishonest because they don't

733
00:40:10,813 --> 00:40:11,133
Speaker 3: say that.

734
00:40:12,213 --> 00:40:12,933
Speaker 2: I mean, you can't.

735
00:40:12,933 --> 00:40:16,093
Speaker 3: So people in New Zealand are really nice, they're really pleasant,

736
00:40:16,213 --> 00:40:18,893
Speaker 3: they're just but this is a cultural war. Like you

737
00:40:19,413 --> 00:40:21,293
Speaker 3: have to get over that, Like you have to call

738
00:40:21,373 --> 00:40:26,093
Speaker 3: these people out. They're attempting to brainwash citizens and they're

739
00:40:26,133 --> 00:40:30,653
Speaker 3: not willing to they're not willing to defend their ideas

740
00:40:30,693 --> 00:40:33,813
Speaker 3: in a public venue. A shame on you.

741
00:40:33,933 --> 00:40:36,053
Speaker 2: Now, what kicked this off was my question to you

742
00:40:36,333 --> 00:40:39,853
Speaker 2: about who was most who would you hold most responsible? Yeah,

743
00:40:39,933 --> 00:40:44,213
Speaker 2: legacy media exactly. That was the answer that I would

744
00:40:44,213 --> 00:40:46,653
Speaker 2: have given your legacy media. And well I wouldn't have

745
00:40:46,693 --> 00:40:49,693
Speaker 2: even called it legacy media. But you know, because there's

746
00:40:49,573 --> 00:40:53,493
Speaker 2: the other sorts of media that's just as bad. Maybe.

747
00:40:53,573 --> 00:40:58,653
Speaker 2: I mean I heard a little of an American commentator

748
00:40:58,653 --> 00:41:06,933
Speaker 2: on the radio this morning who was as usual because

749
00:41:07,013 --> 00:41:10,573
Speaker 2: right from the very get go, when Trump came down

750
00:41:10,613 --> 00:41:13,573
Speaker 2: the escalator, this guy I headed in for him, sure,

751
00:41:14,173 --> 00:41:19,333
Speaker 2: and and he rips him at every opportunity he can get.

752
00:41:19,613 --> 00:41:21,893
Speaker 2: And this morning he was he was picking up, he

753
00:41:22,013 --> 00:41:24,933
Speaker 2: was picking up points of what Trump's done in this

754
00:41:25,173 --> 00:41:35,133
Speaker 2: in this first period, and well either faking it or

755
00:41:35,253 --> 00:41:39,533
Speaker 2: lying about what the what the real story was. Yeah,

756
00:41:39,973 --> 00:41:44,653
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm used to it, and therefore it usually

757
00:41:44,733 --> 00:41:47,933
Speaker 2: saves me the trouble of sweating over it because I

758
00:41:47,973 --> 00:41:50,613
Speaker 2: don't listen. This morning, I caught it accidentally.

759
00:41:50,773 --> 00:41:53,133
Speaker 3: All right, listen, I want to I want to linger

760
00:41:53,173 --> 00:41:54,893
Speaker 3: on this because I think this is really important. Let's

761
00:41:54,893 --> 00:41:57,893
Speaker 3: go back to what you just said. Okay, So these

762
00:41:57,933 --> 00:42:01,893
Speaker 3: people they're not expert debaters or they have no they're

763
00:42:01,933 --> 00:42:04,733
Speaker 3: not used to speaking in front of the public. Great, okay, great,

764
00:42:04,773 --> 00:42:07,733
Speaker 3: no problem. I have zero problem with that. Why don't

765
00:42:07,773 --> 00:42:11,493
Speaker 3: you find four or five academics. Why don't you find

766
00:42:11,493 --> 00:42:13,253
Speaker 3: people who move it fairly high? I mean, there's a

767
00:42:13,293 --> 00:42:17,053
Speaker 3: country of five million people. Find people fairly high in

768
00:42:17,093 --> 00:42:18,933
Speaker 3: the public space and say these people were going to

769
00:42:18,973 --> 00:42:21,053
Speaker 3: host a debate in New Zealand. Herold is going to

770
00:42:21,093 --> 00:42:24,293
Speaker 3: host the debate James lindsay versus our experts, like or

771
00:42:24,293 --> 00:42:26,093
Speaker 3: they don't even have to say our experts. We're gonna

772
00:42:26,093 --> 00:42:28,693
Speaker 3: invite and I guarantee he'll show, he'll come. Well, why

773
00:42:28,733 --> 00:42:30,893
Speaker 3: don't they do that? They can make money from it.

774
00:42:30,933 --> 00:42:33,573
Speaker 3: They'll sell tickets, they can monetize it on YouTube. They

775
00:42:33,613 --> 00:42:35,453
Speaker 3: probably make ten grand easy.

776
00:42:36,053 --> 00:42:39,053
Speaker 2: You probably feel this. So they don't do it, not.

777
00:42:39,133 --> 00:42:42,053
Speaker 3: Because they can't find people, but because they know their

778
00:42:42,093 --> 00:42:43,413
Speaker 3: ideas are bankrupt.

779
00:42:43,613 --> 00:42:45,173
Speaker 2: They just know they're not true.

780
00:42:45,973 --> 00:42:48,453
Speaker 3: Look, if you if you got somebody here.

781
00:42:49,293 --> 00:42:50,773
Speaker 2: Look, they don't know that I can agree with you.

782
00:42:50,893 --> 00:42:53,493
Speaker 2: They don't know. They don't know that it's not true.

783
00:42:53,533 --> 00:42:56,773
Speaker 3: Look look, look, let's say that I had somebody coming

784
00:42:56,813 --> 00:43:01,493
Speaker 3: here who was an expert in I don't know, electromagnetism

785
00:43:01,773 --> 00:43:04,973
Speaker 3: or you know, radioactivity or something, and then I got

786
00:43:04,973 --> 00:43:06,613
Speaker 3: a bunch of other people who are like, well, you

787
00:43:06,613 --> 00:43:09,053
Speaker 3: know what. Or I have someone here who doesn't believe

788
00:43:09,053 --> 00:43:12,213
Speaker 3: there's any such thing as electromagnetism. And let's say he

789
00:43:12,293 --> 00:43:16,653
Speaker 3: has a massive political plat, a massive platform across social media.

790
00:43:17,013 --> 00:43:18,813
Speaker 3: You have no problem finding people to do it. You know,

791
00:43:18,853 --> 00:43:20,813
Speaker 3: there are a bunch of people who actually believe, like

792
00:43:20,853 --> 00:43:23,973
Speaker 3: Mark Sergeant, that the Earth is flat. They literally believe

793
00:43:23,973 --> 00:43:27,933
Speaker 3: that the Earth is flat. Mark Sergeant. I had him

794
00:43:27,933 --> 00:43:30,053
Speaker 3: come in for a guest lecture in my class once.

795
00:43:30,173 --> 00:43:33,293
Speaker 3: It was fascinating, like he actually believes the Earth is flat.

796
00:43:33,413 --> 00:43:37,653
Speaker 3: But my point to you is, if you're not willing

797
00:43:38,373 --> 00:43:42,453
Speaker 3: to defend your ideas publicly, if you're not willing to

798
00:43:43,213 --> 00:43:46,333
Speaker 3: be more humble about what you claim to believe, then

799
00:43:46,333 --> 00:43:49,013
Speaker 3: at the very least you should be able to present

800
00:43:49,173 --> 00:43:53,653
Speaker 3: experts for people. When somebody comes to the country and

801
00:43:53,693 --> 00:43:55,773
Speaker 3: you don't have to pay him, so there's not a

802
00:43:55,853 --> 00:43:59,293
Speaker 3: financial argument there, so that people can hear the argument

803
00:43:59,293 --> 00:44:00,493
Speaker 3: and decide for themselves.

804
00:44:01,093 --> 00:44:01,693
Speaker 2: So you should.

805
00:44:01,853 --> 00:44:06,093
Speaker 3: Your goal is not to indoctrinate people ideologically. Your goal

806
00:44:06,133 --> 00:44:09,053
Speaker 3: is to present the news and have people made decisions

807
00:44:09,493 --> 00:44:10,973
Speaker 3: for themselves. You're laughing.

808
00:44:13,613 --> 00:44:15,813
Speaker 2: I'm laughing silently, and it's killing me.

809
00:44:17,453 --> 00:44:19,653
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, I feel really strongly about this because

810
00:44:20,373 --> 00:44:24,693
Speaker 3: because I think it's a tremendous problem that's overtaken the West.

811
00:44:25,493 --> 00:44:29,573
Speaker 3: The ideological capture of our institutions is a tremendous problem,

812
00:44:29,893 --> 00:44:32,093
Speaker 3: and That's why I think the move that we need

813
00:44:32,133 --> 00:44:34,493
Speaker 3: to make now or in New Zealand is we have

814
00:44:34,573 --> 00:44:37,533
Speaker 3: to call out these people. We have to name names,

815
00:44:38,053 --> 00:44:40,933
Speaker 3: we have to call it specific people for what they're doing,

816
00:44:41,013 --> 00:44:44,933
Speaker 3: for the damage they're doing to society. The trans thing

817
00:44:45,013 --> 00:44:48,133
Speaker 3: is another thing. That's another form of damage that they're

818
00:44:48,133 --> 00:44:51,053
Speaker 3: doing to children. I mean, the damage that these people

819
00:44:51,053 --> 00:44:52,613
Speaker 3: are doing is more or less endless.

820
00:44:53,013 --> 00:44:56,813
Speaker 2: Well we go on with that. There's two words that

821
00:44:56,933 --> 00:45:00,213
Speaker 2: stress strung together. Say it all. Now. I had a

822
00:45:00,253 --> 00:45:02,973
Speaker 2: guy once tell me there is no such thing as

823
00:45:03,013 --> 00:45:03,693
Speaker 2: common sense.

824
00:45:04,213 --> 00:45:06,693
Speaker 3: Well, I would have said to him, well, first I

825
00:45:06,733 --> 00:45:08,613
Speaker 3: would have asked him to defy it, but I would have

826
00:45:08,613 --> 00:45:10,373
Speaker 3: said to that if that's not the case, then why

827
00:45:10,373 --> 00:45:12,293
Speaker 3: don't more people die from just wandering out into the

828
00:45:12,333 --> 00:45:13,013
Speaker 3: middle of the street.

829
00:45:13,533 --> 00:45:19,493
Speaker 2: I'll just write that down. I mean, to have somebody

830
00:45:19,493 --> 00:45:23,773
Speaker 2: say that to you in all sincerity, yeah, just leaves you.

831
00:45:23,853 --> 00:45:24,933
Speaker 2: It leaves you speechless.

832
00:45:25,253 --> 00:45:26,853
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean I The first thing that I

833
00:45:26,893 --> 00:45:29,933
Speaker 3: thought of was just to think of cross cultural examples

834
00:45:29,973 --> 00:45:32,173
Speaker 3: where people had common sense, like putting her hand on

835
00:45:32,213 --> 00:45:34,613
Speaker 3: a stove, like if it really wasn't true, then you'd

836
00:45:34,613 --> 00:45:37,253
Speaker 3: have the number of people who would be randomly, or

837
00:45:37,293 --> 00:45:40,733
Speaker 3: who would not randomly, who would be injured from things

838
00:45:40,773 --> 00:45:43,813
Speaker 3: that you would think common sense would be a prophylactic against,

839
00:45:43,813 --> 00:45:45,973
Speaker 3: would be just in order. In fact, it would almost

840
00:45:45,973 --> 00:45:47,813
Speaker 3: be infinite if there were those things, as common sense,

841
00:45:47,853 --> 00:45:51,413
Speaker 3: I'd open that door and walk off the balcony. Right,

842
00:45:51,573 --> 00:45:53,533
Speaker 3: So I just don't. I mean, that just seems to me,

843
00:45:53,693 --> 00:45:55,013
Speaker 3: on the face of it to be false.

844
00:45:55,733 --> 00:45:59,693
Speaker 2: I'm just thinking of another example. Yeah, and it involves

845
00:46:00,013 --> 00:46:03,013
Speaker 2: the corporal punishment. Okay, so your kids sticking a knife

846
00:46:03,053 --> 00:46:06,413
Speaker 2: into the into the light socket, or he's about to

847
00:46:06,413 --> 00:46:08,613
Speaker 2: put his hand on the on the stove for the

848
00:46:08,773 --> 00:46:09,413
Speaker 2: second time.

849
00:46:09,573 --> 00:46:11,213
Speaker 3: Yeah, usually it only takes once.

850
00:46:11,253 --> 00:46:13,973
Speaker 2: But okay, yeah, but he didn't get there, I said,

851
00:46:14,253 --> 00:46:16,773
Speaker 2: going to put his hand on okay for the second time. Yeah,

852
00:46:16,813 --> 00:46:19,653
Speaker 2: you've already warned him off. Yeah, it's a little four

853
00:46:19,733 --> 00:46:22,533
Speaker 2: year old or whatever. Yeah. What do you do on

854
00:46:22,573 --> 00:46:27,453
Speaker 2: the second occasion when he's being disobedient and about to

855
00:46:27,493 --> 00:46:31,413
Speaker 2: burn himself? Well, I'm gonna say, wipe out his hand forever? Maybe? Okay,

856
00:46:31,413 --> 00:46:32,453
Speaker 2: Well those are different.

857
00:46:32,493 --> 00:46:35,373
Speaker 3: If the stove is just hot and he's gonna burn

858
00:46:35,373 --> 00:46:37,773
Speaker 3: his hand, you let him burn his hand. But if

859
00:46:37,853 --> 00:46:39,773
Speaker 3: the stove is red hot, you do not let him

860
00:46:39,773 --> 00:46:40,453
Speaker 3: put his hand.

861
00:46:40,253 --> 00:46:47,013
Speaker 2: On the stove. Is it not appropriate to take the

862
00:46:47,053 --> 00:46:51,613
Speaker 2: first example? Yeah, and deal with it then, so that

863
00:46:51,093 --> 00:46:55,493
Speaker 2: the second example doesn't have to be played out only if.

864
00:46:55,333 --> 00:46:59,893
Speaker 3: He knows there's this reason that it's not being imposed

865
00:46:59,893 --> 00:47:02,693
Speaker 3: on him externally. If he knows that, once he understands

866
00:47:02,733 --> 00:47:04,653
Speaker 3: the reason for why he shouldn't or she shouldn't put

867
00:47:04,653 --> 00:47:07,453
Speaker 3: her hand on the stove, and then that's just a

868
00:47:07,453 --> 00:47:10,533
Speaker 3: trial and error thing. Haven't touched a hot stove. I mean,

869
00:47:10,573 --> 00:47:12,293
Speaker 3: I have no problem with I used to do in

870
00:47:12,373 --> 00:47:13,733
Speaker 3: my kids when they did stupid shit.

871
00:47:14,013 --> 00:47:16,813
Speaker 2: Did you punish your kids physically? No? Never?

872
00:47:16,933 --> 00:47:17,693
Speaker 3: Never, never ever?

873
00:47:17,893 --> 00:47:18,133
Speaker 2: Why?

874
00:47:20,453 --> 00:47:22,973
Speaker 3: I guess a certain extent I might have. I guess

875
00:47:23,053 --> 00:47:25,173
Speaker 3: got lucky with great kids. But I don't really believe

876
00:47:25,173 --> 00:47:27,493
Speaker 3: in corporal punishment. I think that there are other ways.

877
00:47:27,613 --> 00:47:30,013
Speaker 2: That's the point that I'm that I'm arguing with. We

878
00:47:30,133 --> 00:47:34,653
Speaker 2: we had a corporal punishment band, Yeah, put the whole country.

879
00:47:34,973 --> 00:47:39,853
Speaker 3: Yeah, and in schools or for parents hitting their kids anyway, okay, okay,

880
00:47:40,293 --> 00:47:41,173
Speaker 3: anyone anyway.

881
00:47:41,333 --> 00:47:44,613
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that you your kid, your kid disobeys you

882
00:47:44,653 --> 00:47:48,693
Speaker 2: because he's a little monster. Yeah, and you can't literally

883
00:47:48,693 --> 00:47:49,573
Speaker 2: Smakey's backside.

884
00:47:49,613 --> 00:47:52,173
Speaker 3: Yeah, the same Denmark. Other countries, you know they have.

885
00:47:52,973 --> 00:47:56,253
Speaker 3: So if you're asking me what I think about that,

886
00:47:57,013 --> 00:47:59,253
Speaker 3: I don't really know. I think that's the kind of

887
00:47:59,293 --> 00:48:01,653
Speaker 3: thing that seems like a moral question, but it's really

888
00:48:01,653 --> 00:48:02,693
Speaker 3: an empirical question.

889
00:48:03,213 --> 00:48:03,893
Speaker 2: It's like, what is that?

890
00:48:04,453 --> 00:48:07,133
Speaker 3: You know, we have these moral sensibilities about it, but

891
00:48:07,133 --> 00:48:10,333
Speaker 3: I think it's really and there are so many variables

892
00:48:10,373 --> 00:48:12,453
Speaker 3: it's hard to tease out. But I guess you'd have

893
00:48:12,493 --> 00:48:15,853
Speaker 3: to just look at the data for how effective is it.

894
00:48:16,173 --> 00:48:19,533
Speaker 3: I will say that if my mentor told me an

895
00:48:19,573 --> 00:48:26,053
Speaker 3: interesting story. He never raised his voice at his kids,

896
00:48:26,213 --> 00:48:30,093
Speaker 3: or certainly never hit them. And then one day his

897
00:48:30,253 --> 00:48:34,013
Speaker 3: son wanted to get a tattoo and he slammed his

898
00:48:34,053 --> 00:48:36,653
Speaker 3: foot in his fists on the table and he screamed no,

899
00:48:37,213 --> 00:48:40,533
Speaker 3: and his son was freaked out. And he told me that,

900
00:48:41,573 --> 00:48:44,093
Speaker 3: So this is fucking If you don't mind, I'll just

901
00:48:44,133 --> 00:48:45,733
Speaker 3: go down this rabbit hole for a second. He told

902
00:48:45,773 --> 00:48:52,013
Speaker 3: me this super interesting story about his neighbors. You know,

903
00:48:52,053 --> 00:48:55,413
Speaker 3: the guy is always yelling in his kid, your shit,

904
00:48:55,533 --> 00:48:56,493
Speaker 3: your life is worthless.

905
00:48:56,493 --> 00:48:57,773
Speaker 2: You're never gonna mount to anything.

906
00:48:58,333 --> 00:49:00,693
Speaker 3: And then you know, if a kid left his bike.

907
00:49:00,733 --> 00:49:03,773
Speaker 3: In the car, he'd drive over his bike. The problem

908
00:49:03,813 --> 00:49:05,813
Speaker 3: with that is that you well, there are many prompts

909
00:49:05,853 --> 00:49:08,533
Speaker 3: that but among those is that you become inured to

910
00:49:08,613 --> 00:49:13,013
Speaker 3: a censor, you become immune. He told me this story,

911
00:49:13,133 --> 00:49:15,373
Speaker 3: this is if you give me and it indulge me

912
00:49:15,453 --> 00:49:17,413
Speaker 3: for like a minute, it's a great story. So I

913
00:49:17,413 --> 00:49:20,333
Speaker 3: think it is of chickens. So if you have chickens

914
00:49:20,813 --> 00:49:23,133
Speaker 3: in a pen, there's a pecking order of the chickens.

915
00:49:23,493 --> 00:49:26,613
Speaker 3: So Chicken one will pack all the chickens. Chicken two

916
00:49:26,733 --> 00:49:30,213
Speaker 3: will get pecked by chicken one, but will not be

917
00:49:30,333 --> 00:49:32,773
Speaker 3: packed by the other chickens. Chicken three will get pecked

918
00:49:32,773 --> 00:49:35,173
Speaker 3: by one and two, and we'll pack the others. And

919
00:49:35,333 --> 00:49:39,893
Speaker 3: he was a psychologist, and they tried to reverse the

920
00:49:39,933 --> 00:49:42,773
Speaker 3: pecking order of the chickens to make chicken one chicken

921
00:49:42,853 --> 00:49:45,653
Speaker 3: seven and chicken seven chicken one. And they did that

922
00:49:46,253 --> 00:49:50,453
Speaker 3: by putting an electrical collar around the chicken's neck and

923
00:49:50,533 --> 00:49:53,293
Speaker 3: giving them a zap, so whenever they like, can't see

924
00:49:53,293 --> 00:49:55,493
Speaker 3: it her, but whenever they went down to pack another chicken,

925
00:49:55,493 --> 00:49:58,053
Speaker 3: they'd zap it. So now my question to you is

926
00:49:58,453 --> 00:50:00,813
Speaker 3: was it easier to make chicken one chicken seven or

927
00:50:00,893 --> 00:50:04,573
Speaker 3: chicken seven chicken one. Yeah, it's a hard it's a

928
00:50:04,573 --> 00:50:07,173
Speaker 3: hard question. How long have I got Yeah, it's a

929
00:50:07,213 --> 00:50:12,173
Speaker 3: hard question. Yeah, I'll go for the last one. It's

930
00:50:12,213 --> 00:50:13,853
Speaker 3: easier to make chicken seven chicken one.

931
00:50:14,013 --> 00:50:14,213
Speaker 2: Yeah.

932
00:50:14,253 --> 00:50:16,373
Speaker 3: So no, it's easier to make chicken one chicken seven

933
00:50:16,373 --> 00:50:20,013
Speaker 3: because when chicken one doesn't get packed, one single jolt

934
00:50:20,173 --> 00:50:25,213
Speaker 3: makes some chicken seven. So there's a profound lesson there

935
00:50:25,573 --> 00:50:30,373
Speaker 3: in you know, recidivism, how we call programming, what program

936
00:50:30,413 --> 00:50:33,733
Speaker 3: we give prisoners for, how we punish kids in school.

937
00:50:34,053 --> 00:50:36,013
Speaker 3: If you're told your life is shit and you're never

938
00:50:36,053 --> 00:50:38,173
Speaker 3: going to mount to anything by your father, then when

939
00:50:38,213 --> 00:50:42,053
Speaker 3: you get to schools, you need increasingly harsh disciplinary punishments.

940
00:50:42,453 --> 00:50:45,733
Speaker 3: But that's why we know, I mean, the data is

941
00:50:45,733 --> 00:50:47,973
Speaker 3: pretty overwhelming that it doesn't work. You know, those Scared

942
00:50:48,013 --> 00:50:49,933
Speaker 3: Straight programs that we had when I was growing up,

943
00:50:49,933 --> 00:50:52,013
Speaker 3: when they had these guys come in and they who

944
00:50:52,053 --> 00:50:54,613
Speaker 3: were in prison and there like these big tattoo muscle guys.

945
00:50:54,773 --> 00:50:58,053
Speaker 3: The outcomes are pretty clear on that those didn't work.

946
00:50:58,813 --> 00:51:02,053
Speaker 3: And among the reasons that harsh punishment doesn't work is

947
00:51:02,053 --> 00:51:05,573
Speaker 3: because you're talking about people who are like chicken. You know, four, five,

948
00:51:05,613 --> 00:51:09,173
Speaker 3: and six the most minor punishment. That's why the criminal

949
00:51:09,253 --> 00:51:11,533
Speaker 3: justice system is in a sense backward. We should be

950
00:51:11,533 --> 00:51:14,333
Speaker 3: punishing people most severely for their first defense.

951
00:51:15,093 --> 00:51:17,533
Speaker 2: Well, i've realized that I'm What I meant to say

952
00:51:17,533 --> 00:51:19,613
Speaker 2: when I opened my mouth was it's easy to make

953
00:51:19,653 --> 00:51:20,453
Speaker 2: one number seven.

954
00:51:21,333 --> 00:51:24,933
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yeah, it's easier to make one seven.

955
00:51:24,973 --> 00:51:28,773
Speaker 2: That's what it takes. One jolt, and so here's here's

956
00:51:28,773 --> 00:51:30,933
Speaker 2: another one. Here's another way to think about it.

957
00:51:31,213 --> 00:51:33,253
Speaker 3: My mentor was also telling me this story about a

958
00:51:33,253 --> 00:51:35,093
Speaker 3: guy who kept punching himself in the head. He was

959
00:51:35,133 --> 00:51:37,973
Speaker 3: in a mental institution, and they tried everything and they

960
00:51:37,973 --> 00:51:41,373
Speaker 3: could not make this guy stop punching himself in the head.

961
00:51:41,893 --> 00:51:45,773
Speaker 3: So what they did was they attached electrodes to his

962
00:51:45,973 --> 00:51:48,613
Speaker 3: arms and when he went up to punch himself in

963
00:51:48,613 --> 00:51:51,653
Speaker 3: the head. Yeah, it's a behaviorism. It's the same thing.

964
00:51:52,053 --> 00:51:54,613
Speaker 3: And it took only two jolts for this guy to

965
00:51:54,653 --> 00:51:57,693
Speaker 3: never punch himself in the head again. Now I'm going

966
00:51:57,693 --> 00:51:59,693
Speaker 3: somewhere with this story because it gets back to an

967
00:51:59,693 --> 00:52:03,573
Speaker 3: earlier question that you asked me. So, I don't know

968
00:52:03,573 --> 00:52:05,533
Speaker 3: if your listeners will know what a VCR is.

969
00:52:06,053 --> 00:52:07,173
Speaker 2: You know, yea.

970
00:52:07,533 --> 00:52:11,013
Speaker 3: So he had that recorded on a VCR and he

971
00:52:11,173 --> 00:52:14,533
Speaker 3: sent that. You know, those tapes used to get you know,

972
00:52:14,653 --> 00:52:17,493
Speaker 3: messed up. When you played him enough, the tapes would

973
00:52:17,573 --> 00:52:20,773
Speaker 3: kind So he sent that to the IT department and

974
00:52:21,453 --> 00:52:24,013
Speaker 3: he told them to fix it, and it came back.

975
00:52:24,453 --> 00:52:26,733
Speaker 3: They cut out the part where they zapp the guy.

976
00:52:27,173 --> 00:52:28,813
Speaker 3: Now why did they cut out the part when they

977
00:52:28,893 --> 00:52:32,533
Speaker 3: zapped the guy because it was against the ethics the

978
00:52:32,573 --> 00:52:36,573
Speaker 3: ethics board, it said, it's showing the harmful exploitation of

979
00:52:37,493 --> 00:52:41,133
Speaker 3: you know, people who are wards of the state. So

980
00:52:41,293 --> 00:52:46,053
Speaker 3: is a consequence for that that critical piece of human

981
00:52:46,093 --> 00:52:48,653
Speaker 3: knowledge that can be used to help people is now

982
00:52:48,693 --> 00:52:52,053
Speaker 3: forever lost from the canon of knowledge. It's been erased.

983
00:52:52,733 --> 00:52:56,293
Speaker 3: It's been erased. So that's an example. Because you asked me,

984
00:52:56,293 --> 00:52:59,413
Speaker 3: how do we get in this situation, whether it's IQ

985
00:52:59,893 --> 00:53:02,573
Speaker 3: or what have you. We got in the situation because

986
00:53:03,133 --> 00:53:06,653
Speaker 3: we have norms that we've imposed upon, systems that have

987
00:53:07,493 --> 00:53:11,413
Speaker 3: made the method of error correction less transparent and impossible to understand.

988
00:53:12,053 --> 00:53:14,133
Speaker 3: That's how we're in this situation. It started with the

989
00:53:14,133 --> 00:53:19,653
Speaker 3: French postmodernist Drria Leotard Fuco. It metastasized throughout our academic systems,

990
00:53:19,973 --> 00:53:22,613
Speaker 3: and then we're in this nightmare situation that we're in

991
00:53:22,693 --> 00:53:25,973
Speaker 3: now with these lunatics who have controlling institutions. I mean,

992
00:53:25,973 --> 00:53:28,253
Speaker 3: these people are total lunatics.

993
00:53:27,693 --> 00:53:32,733
Speaker 2: Is it now appropriate to draw on the most recent

994
00:53:32,813 --> 00:53:38,933
Speaker 2: experience of American politics one thousand percent? Because you and

995
00:53:38,973 --> 00:53:41,053
Speaker 2: I had a discussion a couple of days ago with

996
00:53:41,133 --> 00:53:45,173
Speaker 2: regard to what was happening. I asked you how you

997
00:53:45,253 --> 00:53:49,173
Speaker 2: reacted to the well to the election result, and what

998
00:53:49,333 --> 00:53:52,653
Speaker 2: happened since January twenty. What was your response.

999
00:53:53,413 --> 00:53:57,813
Speaker 3: I remember my exact response, but I will say Harris

1000
00:53:57,893 --> 00:53:58,653
Speaker 3: was an abomination.

1001
00:53:59,133 --> 00:54:00,093
Speaker 2: She's the worst.

1002
00:53:59,893 --> 00:54:02,253
Speaker 3: Possible person one could have picked. She would have been

1003
00:54:02,293 --> 00:54:05,173
Speaker 3: not only more of the same, but more racism, guys

1004
00:54:05,213 --> 00:54:11,333
Speaker 3: as anti racism, more anti meritic, detocracy, more division, more strife,

1005
00:54:11,573 --> 00:54:16,253
Speaker 3: more enmity, more illegals. I mean, truly the worst possible candidate.

1006
00:54:16,253 --> 00:54:19,773
Speaker 3: We could have had, more legacy, media and more. I mean,

1007
00:54:19,813 --> 00:54:24,293
Speaker 3: I could go on and on. I am incredibly relieved

1008
00:54:24,893 --> 00:54:28,373
Speaker 3: with seeing, among those things that are in my domain

1009
00:54:28,413 --> 00:54:31,693
Speaker 3: of expertise in purview, I am incredibly relieved to see

1010
00:54:31,693 --> 00:54:34,493
Speaker 3: some of the things Donald Trump has done. And to

1011
00:54:34,533 --> 00:54:36,853
Speaker 3: be clear, I think he is a deeply he was

1012
00:54:36,893 --> 00:54:38,813
Speaker 3: a deeply deeply flawed candidate.

1013
00:54:39,133 --> 00:54:43,493
Speaker 2: I'm sorry who Trump, It was a deeply flawed candidate.

1014
00:54:43,813 --> 00:54:46,293
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I think he's done a phenomenal job. He

1015
00:54:46,413 --> 00:54:49,733
Speaker 3: wasn't my first vivak Ramaswami I thought would have like

1016
00:54:49,853 --> 00:54:53,613
Speaker 3: he's sharp. But I think given the context, I think

1017
00:54:53,653 --> 00:54:55,893
Speaker 3: Trump is the man to do what he's doing. I mean,

1018
00:54:55,933 --> 00:54:57,613
Speaker 3: we need that in our country.

1019
00:54:58,133 --> 00:55:01,493
Speaker 2: That'd be quite just something. Sure why Activist politicians are

1020
00:55:01,573 --> 00:55:04,173
Speaker 2: up in arms this week after Trump signed orders effectively

1021
00:55:04,213 --> 00:55:08,693
Speaker 2: shutting down all DEI related officers within the government, seeing

1022
00:55:09,053 --> 00:55:13,453
Speaker 2: employees on paid leaf pending inevitable pink slips. The usual suspects,

1023
00:55:13,493 --> 00:55:18,293
Speaker 2: including House Minority Reader leader Hakim Jeffries and the Democrat

1024
00:55:18,373 --> 00:55:22,373
Speaker 2: rip ilhan Omer, held a press conference to voice their

1025
00:55:22,373 --> 00:55:25,893
Speaker 2: outrage over the fast paced elimination of DEI. And that's

1026
00:55:25,973 --> 00:55:31,493
Speaker 2: just the start. Good can't come soon enough. Democrats threaten

1027
00:55:31,733 --> 00:55:36,013
Speaker 2: righteous litigation over Trump's shutdown of the EI officers. That's

1028
00:55:36,053 --> 00:55:39,933
Speaker 2: the that's the headline. What chance have they got? Oh?

1029
00:55:39,973 --> 00:55:40,453
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1030
00:55:40,533 --> 00:55:43,533
Speaker 3: I mean, I probably not, probably not much. I think

1031
00:55:43,573 --> 00:55:46,693
Speaker 3: Americans are sick of it. I probably not much, but

1032
00:55:46,733 --> 00:55:50,253
Speaker 3: we'll see. Maybe the wage and effective campaign. I would

1033
00:55:50,253 --> 00:55:53,613
Speaker 3: say it's small. I mean, look, it's discriminated against people

1034
00:55:53,653 --> 00:55:56,333
Speaker 3: on the basis of their race, like Asian Americans are

1035
00:55:56,373 --> 00:55:58,893
Speaker 3: discriminated against in the base of the race for admissions

1036
00:55:58,893 --> 00:55:59,893
Speaker 3: to elite institutions.

1037
00:56:00,533 --> 00:56:01,093
Speaker 2: We know that.

1038
00:56:01,733 --> 00:56:05,853
Speaker 3: So you're but don't don't lie about what you're doing.

1039
00:56:06,093 --> 00:56:09,133
Speaker 3: Just say what you're doing. We don't want Asians, we

1040
00:56:09,173 --> 00:56:10,293
Speaker 3: hate Jews. Just say it.

1041
00:56:11,053 --> 00:56:12,213
Speaker 2: What would happen if they did so?

1042
00:56:13,253 --> 00:56:16,573
Speaker 3: Well, I wouldn't respect your beliefs, but I'd certainly respect

1043
00:56:16,613 --> 00:56:20,013
Speaker 3: them more. Well, thanks for being honest, you know when

1044
00:56:20,053 --> 00:56:21,853
Speaker 3: I used to say when you know, I had a

1045
00:56:21,853 --> 00:56:24,813
Speaker 3: debate with the Islamic scholar once and I couldn't get

1046
00:56:24,853 --> 00:56:28,053
Speaker 3: him to say that the punishment for apostases should be death.

1047
00:56:28,413 --> 00:56:30,853
Speaker 3: Finally he said it. It's a little I can tell

1048
00:56:30,853 --> 00:56:32,893
Speaker 3: you how I got him say it, but I at

1049
00:56:32,973 --> 00:56:35,213
Speaker 3: least respected him more for saying I would have respected

1050
00:56:35,293 --> 00:56:37,493
Speaker 3: him more if he set it up front. But don't,

1051
00:56:38,213 --> 00:56:40,853
Speaker 3: just don't deceive yourself. These people hate Jews and they

1052
00:56:40,893 --> 00:56:42,573
Speaker 3: hate Asians, and they should just say it, we hate

1053
00:56:42,653 --> 00:56:44,693
Speaker 3: Jews and we hate Asians. Okay, Well, then now we

1054
00:56:44,733 --> 00:56:47,053
Speaker 3: know who we're dealing with. Right now, now, no one's

1055
00:56:47,093 --> 00:56:48,533
Speaker 3: lying to each other. And we know you hate Jews

1056
00:56:48,533 --> 00:56:49,893
Speaker 3: and we know you hate Asians, so great, all.

1057
00:56:49,853 --> 00:56:52,413
Speaker 2: Right, Now, there are some sources, one in particular that

1058
00:56:52,493 --> 00:56:55,173
Speaker 2: I'm thinking of, some sources that will tell you that

1059
00:56:55,293 --> 00:56:58,653
Speaker 2: straight not because they believe it, because they know that

1060
00:56:58,653 --> 00:57:01,133
Speaker 2: that's what you just said is correct. And I'm talking

1061
00:57:01,173 --> 00:57:05,293
Speaker 2: about public figures. But there are very few of them

1062
00:57:06,573 --> 00:57:10,573
Speaker 2: who will simply call a spade of spade and call

1063
00:57:10,613 --> 00:57:13,733
Speaker 2: them out when when it's uh, when it's appropriate. So

1064
00:57:14,413 --> 00:57:15,333
Speaker 2: is that the media's fault.

1065
00:57:16,053 --> 00:57:18,533
Speaker 3: I think it's a combination of things. It's you know,

1066
00:57:18,653 --> 00:57:21,653
Speaker 3: it's it's it's a Calvin Trilling said that things are

1067
00:57:21,693 --> 00:57:23,533
Speaker 3: really attributable to a single cause.

1068
00:57:24,133 --> 00:57:24,293
Speaker 2: You know.

1069
00:57:24,333 --> 00:57:28,573
Speaker 3: I mean I've seen people holding on college campuses pro

1070
00:57:28,693 --> 00:57:32,693
Speaker 3: Hamas science. I mean Hamas is a terrorist organization. I've

1071
00:57:32,853 --> 00:57:34,933
Speaker 3: you know, at the Sydney Opera House there were cantidates.

1072
00:57:34,933 --> 00:57:36,333
Speaker 3: They're chanting gas the Jews.

1073
00:57:36,333 --> 00:57:38,693
Speaker 2: No no, no, no, no, no no no no no no.

1074
00:57:38,853 --> 00:57:41,493
Speaker 2: Are you're saying that? I think it was wigs the Jews.

1075
00:57:42,053 --> 00:57:44,013
Speaker 3: Oh no, they lied about it, right, they lied about it.

1076
00:57:44,053 --> 00:57:46,573
Speaker 3: But but but but that's the other thing that that

1077
00:57:46,693 --> 00:57:48,653
Speaker 3: but that makes my point, they're lying about it.

1078
00:57:49,133 --> 00:57:51,973
Speaker 2: They're just lying about it. So there are people say,

1079
00:57:52,173 --> 00:57:55,613
Speaker 2: so are the politicians, Well yeah, they're lying about it,

1080
00:57:55,653 --> 00:57:58,133
Speaker 2: and the police, well they're also lying about it.

1081
00:57:58,133 --> 00:58:00,133
Speaker 3: I'm saying you should if you hate Jews, just say

1082
00:58:00,173 --> 00:58:03,293
Speaker 3: I hate Jews if you will, like, there's no reason

1083
00:58:03,333 --> 00:58:04,093
Speaker 3: to lie about it.

1084
00:58:05,053 --> 00:58:06,933
Speaker 2: I think, I think in your part of the world

1085
00:58:06,933 --> 00:58:09,133
Speaker 2: there are plenty of people who are prepare to say that.

1086
00:58:09,293 --> 00:58:12,693
Speaker 3: Well yeah, well yeah, it doesn't mean I in fact,

1087
00:58:12,733 --> 00:58:15,213
Speaker 3: I detest those views. I think that they're an abomination.

1088
00:58:15,613 --> 00:58:18,053
Speaker 3: But at least they're being honest with you. You know,

1089
00:58:18,133 --> 00:58:20,413
Speaker 3: like with these people with the DEI, people with the

1090
00:58:20,533 --> 00:58:24,533
Speaker 3: radical identitarian leftists, they're they're they're even worse than that

1091
00:58:24,653 --> 00:58:28,133
Speaker 3: because that they're operating under a system, you know. I mean,

1092
00:58:28,213 --> 00:58:30,173
Speaker 3: did you see the whole Claudine Gay thing when she

1093
00:58:30,213 --> 00:58:34,533
Speaker 3: went before Congress. Remind me it's a it was so

1094
00:58:34,733 --> 00:58:36,573
Speaker 3: I mean, it was the really the beginning of the

1095
00:58:36,653 --> 00:58:37,293
Speaker 3: end of DEI.

1096
00:58:37,693 --> 00:58:39,253
Speaker 2: She was which which university?

1097
00:58:39,733 --> 00:58:43,013
Speaker 3: She's Harvard, She's the serial plasirest at Harvard. Yeah, and so,

1098
00:58:43,613 --> 00:58:46,253
Speaker 3: you know, the slightest thing is a microaggression if you say,

1099
00:58:46,253 --> 00:58:47,013
Speaker 3: you know, where are you from?

1100
00:58:47,053 --> 00:58:47,533
Speaker 2: What have you.

1101
00:58:47,973 --> 00:58:50,653
Speaker 3: But chanting death to the Jews is fine? Are you

1102
00:58:50,733 --> 00:58:54,573
Speaker 3: kidding me? Like? Are you kidding me? But that's who

1103
00:58:54,653 --> 00:58:57,813
Speaker 3: the type of people you're dealing with, and so let's

1104
00:58:57,853 --> 00:58:59,973
Speaker 3: I just think we need to be honest about who

1105
00:58:59,973 --> 00:59:00,613
Speaker 3: we're dealing with.

1106
00:59:01,453 --> 00:59:05,653
Speaker 2: Is is the transition, which is of course still underway,

1107
00:59:05,733 --> 00:59:09,813
Speaker 2: will be underway for quite some Timere's the transition likely

1108
00:59:09,853 --> 00:59:12,653
Speaker 2: to hold? Do you think? And I'm talking not just

1109
00:59:12,733 --> 00:59:14,893
Speaker 2: not just not just for the next couple of years,

1110
00:59:14,933 --> 00:59:17,413
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, is it going to roll on

1111
00:59:18,413 --> 00:59:21,173
Speaker 2: because finally people have been working up.

1112
00:59:21,453 --> 00:59:25,693
Speaker 3: It's a great question, I with a potentially unintended pun

1113
00:59:25,773 --> 00:59:30,053
Speaker 3: of waking up. I think if you look at intellectual history,

1114
00:59:30,613 --> 00:59:34,373
Speaker 3: every generation is subject to a zeitgeist or a value.

1115
00:59:34,413 --> 00:59:37,133
Speaker 3: You know, in Homer's time it was strength, Aristotle's time

1116
00:59:37,253 --> 00:59:41,373
Speaker 3: was the Athenian gentleman. Voltaire's time it was humor. Every

1117
00:59:41,413 --> 00:59:45,453
Speaker 3: every society has some every kind of epica, every age

1118
00:59:45,493 --> 00:59:49,973
Speaker 3: has some value. Our society has been beset recently by

1119
00:59:50,053 --> 00:59:55,573
Speaker 3: multiple simultaneous mass delusions, and so it's very difficult to predict,

1120
00:59:55,773 --> 00:59:59,293
Speaker 3: to predict the next mass illusion, but suffice it to

1121
00:59:59,333 --> 01:00:01,933
Speaker 3: say it's coming. I don't I have some suspicions about

1122
01:00:01,933 --> 01:00:06,013
Speaker 3: what it is. That's kind of but who knows what

1123
01:00:06,053 --> 01:00:08,773
Speaker 3: it would be. But you can only addres us one

1124
01:00:08,853 --> 01:00:12,213
Speaker 3: mass illusion is at a time. It's very difficult to

1125
01:00:12,253 --> 01:00:15,813
Speaker 3: have a kind of universal prophylactic against people becoming delusional.

1126
01:00:15,893 --> 01:00:19,453
Speaker 3: It's almost impossible. That's why you need strong institutions. That's

1127
01:00:19,493 --> 01:00:25,213
Speaker 3: why you need corrective mechanisms. Capitalism, democracy, free speech. That's

1128
01:00:25,213 --> 01:00:26,693
Speaker 3: why those things are indispensable.

1129
01:00:28,053 --> 01:00:30,693
Speaker 2: Let's deal with free speech. Okay, just for a moment. Sure,

1130
01:00:31,253 --> 01:00:34,733
Speaker 2: how far can we cope with free speech being free

1131
01:00:34,733 --> 01:00:36,413
Speaker 2: speech in its fullness?

1132
01:00:36,453 --> 01:00:40,173
Speaker 3: Yeah, up to the incitement of violence? And then what happens, Oh,

1133
01:00:40,253 --> 01:00:42,853
Speaker 3: then it's illegal. There are other things that are illegal,

1134
01:00:42,933 --> 01:00:47,733
Speaker 3: like slander, defamation. I mean, we have a pretty robust

1135
01:00:48,093 --> 01:00:52,373
Speaker 3: pedigree in the legal infrastructure for this. You know, the

1136
01:00:52,413 --> 01:00:55,573
Speaker 3: history of jurisprudence is, you know, when we come from

1137
01:00:55,573 --> 01:00:59,533
Speaker 3: broadly the same tradition, although the Americans kind of veered off.

1138
01:00:59,693 --> 01:01:01,653
Speaker 3: We have a pretty good infrastructure for this, and.

1139
01:01:02,213 --> 01:01:05,373
Speaker 2: It's worked until it becomes violent.

1140
01:01:06,013 --> 01:01:07,653
Speaker 3: The incitement of violence.

1141
01:01:07,693 --> 01:01:11,293
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, well so so it happens, right, there's an

1142
01:01:11,573 --> 01:01:15,413
Speaker 2: there's an instance, and it's patently obvious and there's a conviction,

1143
01:01:15,893 --> 01:01:18,853
Speaker 2: So what what what do we do? And those words

1144
01:01:18,853 --> 01:01:23,973
Speaker 2: that were spoken? Or ban people who are speaking those words? No,

1145
01:01:24,013 --> 01:01:26,813
Speaker 2: I mean you know, and when you and when you've

1146
01:01:26,973 --> 01:01:29,093
Speaker 2: when you've got and this I have, I have to

1147
01:01:29,093 --> 01:01:31,773
Speaker 2: throw this in. Sure, when you've got X now doing

1148
01:01:31,773 --> 01:01:34,173
Speaker 2: the job that it's doing. I've seen some pretty rough

1149
01:01:34,173 --> 01:01:34,853
Speaker 2: stuff on there.

1150
01:01:35,013 --> 01:01:40,333
Speaker 3: Sure. So here's a good rule of thumb people can

1151
01:01:40,373 --> 01:01:44,173
Speaker 3: think about. Ideas do not deserve dignity. People deserve dignity.

1152
01:01:44,693 --> 01:01:48,133
Speaker 3: And so if you want to say what should or

1153
01:01:48,173 --> 01:01:50,293
Speaker 3: should not if you're trying to think of a how

1154
01:01:50,293 --> 01:01:52,333
Speaker 3: do I know what can what cannot? What I can

1155
01:01:52,413 --> 01:01:55,133
Speaker 3: or cannot say? I mean, there's a general rule of

1156
01:01:55,173 --> 01:01:57,293
Speaker 3: just don't be a dick. But the next rule down

1157
01:01:57,373 --> 01:02:00,413
Speaker 3: is if it's an immutable characteristic of a person, there's

1158
01:02:00,413 --> 01:02:02,453
Speaker 3: no point to criticize it because they can't change it.

1159
01:02:02,853 --> 01:02:05,893
Speaker 3: But if it's all ideas should be subject to criticism,

1160
01:02:06,253 --> 01:02:09,293
Speaker 3: and those include religious ideas or atheist stick ideas as well.

1161
01:02:09,373 --> 01:02:12,853
Speaker 3: Anything that's an idea should be open to criticism. But

1162
01:02:12,893 --> 01:02:16,893
Speaker 3: any immutable property of a person like me, criticizing your age,

1163
01:02:16,973 --> 01:02:19,933
Speaker 3: your eye color, that's not open to criticisms. That shouldn't

1164
01:02:19,933 --> 01:02:22,333
Speaker 3: be open to criticism. But I'm not saying that should

1165
01:02:22,333 --> 01:02:23,053
Speaker 3: be illegal either.

1166
01:02:23,693 --> 01:02:24,933
Speaker 2: Sorry what you like, I don't care.

1167
01:02:25,533 --> 01:02:28,813
Speaker 3: Yeah, But but I mean the whole point of of

1168
01:02:29,493 --> 01:02:31,933
Speaker 3: you're trying to you're trying to offer some kind of

1169
01:02:32,013 --> 01:02:35,293
Speaker 3: corrective mechanism so that we can fix errors in our thinking.

1170
01:02:35,453 --> 01:02:35,613
Speaker 2: Right.

1171
01:02:35,653 --> 01:02:38,573
Speaker 3: So that's one of the reasons that's Is it about

1172
01:02:38,573 --> 01:02:42,293
Speaker 3: cognitive liberty, yes? Is it about hearing different epistemic systems

1173
01:02:42,293 --> 01:02:43,013
Speaker 3: and different ideas?

1174
01:02:43,053 --> 01:02:43,213
Speaker 2: Yes.

1175
01:02:43,293 --> 01:02:45,213
Speaker 3: Andrew Doyle has a great little book about this.

1176
01:02:45,373 --> 01:02:45,813
Speaker 2: He's the.

1177
01:02:47,653 --> 01:02:51,213
Speaker 3: English PhD from Oxford called Free Speech. It's very easy,

1178
01:02:51,573 --> 01:02:55,213
Speaker 3: very simple to read, little book. Yeah, he's Titiana McGrath

1179
01:02:55,613 --> 01:03:00,133
Speaker 3: and I think he's working with Rob Schneider. Now in

1180
01:03:00,133 --> 01:03:02,533
Speaker 3: in he was on gb News he had free Speech Nation.

1181
01:03:02,613 --> 01:03:06,093
Speaker 3: But anyway, he details this in his in his book.

1182
01:03:06,693 --> 01:03:08,573
Speaker 3: But that's one of the things that people don't talk

1183
01:03:08,613 --> 01:03:11,813
Speaker 3: about that I've talked about on tour here is free

1184
01:03:11,813 --> 01:03:13,853
Speaker 3: speech is a means of error correction. I mean, that's

1185
01:03:13,853 --> 01:03:15,333
Speaker 3: the other thing. To get back to the Mallory and

1186
01:03:15,453 --> 01:03:18,813
Speaker 3: get back to these tribal civilizations. They've just quenched that,

1187
01:03:18,933 --> 01:03:21,573
Speaker 3: they've quelled any kind of free speech you see that

1188
01:03:21,573 --> 01:03:24,013
Speaker 3: in the Islamic world like you can't. Really, that's why

1189
01:03:24,013 --> 01:03:27,053
Speaker 3: you need blasphemy laws. There are no blasphemy laws against

1190
01:03:27,093 --> 01:03:30,693
Speaker 3: electricity or gravity. You don't need them, right, you don't.

1191
01:03:30,733 --> 01:03:31,293
Speaker 2: You don't need them.

1192
01:03:31,573 --> 01:03:33,933
Speaker 3: There are corrective mechanisms there too, but you only need

1193
01:03:33,973 --> 01:03:37,133
Speaker 3: them if there is insufficient evidence to warrant belief in

1194
01:03:37,173 --> 01:03:39,573
Speaker 3: a conclusion. That's why you need blasphemy laws.

1195
01:03:40,013 --> 01:03:41,533
Speaker 2: There's no other reason for it. But there are no

1196
01:03:41,573 --> 01:03:43,813
Speaker 2: blasphemy laws against Christianity.

1197
01:03:44,453 --> 01:03:47,693
Speaker 3: Yeah, there are no blasphemy laws against electricity either. I

1198
01:03:47,693 --> 01:03:49,653
Speaker 3: could go out in the street and scream all day

1199
01:03:49,693 --> 01:03:54,613
Speaker 3: long that electricity is a right wing conspiracy, our Martian conspiracy.

1200
01:03:54,853 --> 01:03:56,493
Speaker 3: We don't need laws against that.

1201
01:03:56,853 --> 01:03:59,453
Speaker 2: So we don't need laws against Christianity.

1202
01:03:59,893 --> 01:04:04,773
Speaker 3: Against criticizing anybody should be able to criticize any any

1203
01:04:04,853 --> 01:04:07,413
Speaker 3: religion or any thought system they want or atheists and

1204
01:04:07,453 --> 01:04:10,693
Speaker 3: atheists fall into that pasca too, and any idea is

1205
01:04:10,693 --> 01:04:11,253
Speaker 3: subject to.

1206
01:04:11,173 --> 01:04:15,733
Speaker 2: Criticism, all right. I mean I'm not arguing with that

1207
01:04:15,813 --> 01:04:18,053
Speaker 2: at all. Yes, I was just I was just intrigued.

1208
01:04:18,093 --> 01:04:23,253
Speaker 2: You've got you've got you've got laws against speaking about Islam, yes,

1209
01:04:23,733 --> 01:04:27,853
Speaker 2: but no laws against speaking about correct it's a standard.

1210
01:04:27,973 --> 01:04:31,053
Speaker 2: So what I'm what I'm asking, what I'm really driving at,

1211
01:04:31,333 --> 01:04:34,333
Speaker 2: I suppose is what you said to follow on that

1212
01:04:34,413 --> 01:04:37,853
Speaker 2: you you need it because or you have it because

1213
01:04:38,573 --> 01:04:45,773
Speaker 2: you have laws against criticizing Islam because.

1214
01:04:48,413 --> 01:04:50,173
Speaker 3: Well, the real I'll give you the real reason there

1215
01:04:50,173 --> 01:04:52,373
Speaker 3: are lies against criticizing it in the UK is because

1216
01:04:52,373 --> 01:04:55,373
Speaker 3: they're afred. People are afraid. That's why I they don't

1217
01:04:55,373 --> 01:04:56,373
Speaker 3: criticize it.

1218
01:04:56,573 --> 01:04:58,733
Speaker 2: Oh you mean English people.

1219
01:04:58,613 --> 01:05:01,853
Speaker 3: Or people people in general. I mean I never criticize

1220
01:05:01,853 --> 01:05:03,973
Speaker 3: it because I don't. I'm not particularly keen about having

1221
01:05:03,973 --> 01:05:06,253
Speaker 3: my head signed off with the butter knife. Yeah. So,

1222
01:05:06,293 --> 01:05:08,253
Speaker 3: I mean I would never go around burning the Quran,

1223
01:05:08,813 --> 01:05:10,093
Speaker 3: defecating on it.

1224
01:05:10,533 --> 01:05:17,053
Speaker 2: Probably ill advised, but but there's no trouble was putting across.

1225
01:05:17,213 --> 01:05:19,453
Speaker 3: Serrano's piss christ Yeah that's right.

1226
01:05:20,093 --> 01:05:20,893
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I.

1227
01:05:20,853 --> 01:05:22,933
Speaker 3: Mean that's because Christians aren't going to rise up and

1228
01:05:23,013 --> 01:05:26,053
Speaker 3: just start killing people. I mean, it's like the Book

1229
01:05:26,053 --> 01:05:33,053
Speaker 3: of Mormon, right when we're fundamentally afraid. That's why many

1230
01:05:33,093 --> 01:05:37,333
Speaker 3: atheists have no problem criticizing Christianity but will never criticize Islam.

1231
01:05:37,493 --> 01:05:39,293
Speaker 3: Part of its fear, part of it. There are other

1232
01:05:39,333 --> 01:05:40,173
Speaker 3: reasons for that as.

1233
01:05:40,053 --> 01:05:40,453
Speaker 2: Well, but.

1234
01:05:42,493 --> 01:05:46,253
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're also beholden to this kind of sacredness of

1235
01:05:46,293 --> 01:05:49,693
Speaker 3: the brown people. Nonsense, there are no sacred people. There

1236
01:05:49,693 --> 01:05:53,413
Speaker 3: are no sacred ideas either. They're just ideas and people,

1237
01:05:53,693 --> 01:05:57,733
Speaker 3: and no one people and no ethnicity or no race

1238
01:05:58,453 --> 01:06:00,413
Speaker 3: has dominion over any ideas.

1239
01:06:01,093 --> 01:06:06,413
Speaker 2: So I think to wind this up, almost reluctantly, you've

1240
01:06:06,413 --> 01:06:09,373
Speaker 2: been here for two months, living here, loved it in

1241
01:06:09,413 --> 01:06:11,413
Speaker 2: the in the middle of Auckland. But you've done plenty

1242
01:06:11,453 --> 01:06:16,293
Speaker 2: of travel. You were here in twenty fifteen last Yeah,

1243
01:06:16,373 --> 01:06:20,973
Speaker 2: with you, we read a great time, we interviewed, and

1244
01:06:22,453 --> 01:06:24,653
Speaker 2: there's another part of that story. Maybe we'll get to

1245
01:06:24,693 --> 01:06:34,493
Speaker 2: it in a minute. The point is that we have replaced,

1246
01:06:45,853 --> 01:06:50,613
Speaker 2: we have replaced the government that was garbage a little

1247
01:06:50,613 --> 01:06:54,733
Speaker 2: every year ago, and we are making progress in the

1248
01:06:54,813 --> 01:07:00,013
Speaker 2: right direction. But it's not satisfactory, not if you stake

1249
01:07:00,013 --> 01:07:04,293
Speaker 2: it against what's going on now in your country. So

1250
01:07:04,973 --> 01:07:07,213
Speaker 2: from your perspective, from what you've seen two months here,

1251
01:07:07,213 --> 01:07:11,293
Speaker 2: a long time, what what would you say was the

1252
01:07:11,333 --> 01:07:14,213
Speaker 2: advantage to this country and the disadvantage of this country

1253
01:07:14,653 --> 01:07:15,933
Speaker 2: compared to America?

1254
01:07:16,053 --> 01:07:21,933
Speaker 3: Oh boy, what a question. Holy moly. I mean, there

1255
01:07:21,933 --> 01:07:24,933
Speaker 3: are a lot of incredible things about this country, and

1256
01:07:25,013 --> 01:07:27,373
Speaker 3: a lot of less than incredible things are few.

1257
01:07:28,053 --> 01:07:29,013
Speaker 2: It very much.

1258
01:07:28,893 --> 01:07:32,453
Speaker 3: Reminds me of the US and the nineties. It's safe, clean,

1259
01:07:32,493 --> 01:07:34,333
Speaker 3: I hope knowing people here think, oh, it's not that

1260
01:07:34,413 --> 01:07:36,573
Speaker 3: say it trusts me. It is compared to so to

1261
01:07:36,973 --> 01:07:39,573
Speaker 3: blue cities with blue governors. You know, the city where

1262
01:07:39,573 --> 01:07:42,413
Speaker 3: I was living was a it was a cesspool of

1263
01:07:42,453 --> 01:07:45,333
Speaker 3: degenerates and lunatics and homeless people. It was terribly it's

1264
01:07:45,373 --> 01:07:50,053
Speaker 3: truly dangerous and frightening. So it's clean, it's safe. Public

1265
01:07:50,053 --> 01:07:53,013
Speaker 3: transportation isn't that great here the whole. I've never heard

1266
01:07:53,013 --> 01:07:56,373
Speaker 3: of a major metropolitan area who's literally closed its whole,

1267
01:07:56,653 --> 01:07:59,733
Speaker 3: its entire trade station, dia literally train lighted.

1268
01:07:59,773 --> 01:08:01,133
Speaker 2: I've literally never even heard.

1269
01:08:00,933 --> 01:08:03,773
Speaker 3: Of such a thing. But you know, I had dinner

1270
01:08:04,013 --> 01:08:06,173
Speaker 3: the other day with the Minister of Justice. He just

1271
01:08:06,253 --> 01:08:08,453
Speaker 3: comes waltz is in, sits at the table, doesn't in

1272
01:08:08,493 --> 01:08:12,333
Speaker 3: a security escort, doesn't need like guys surrounding with guns.

1273
01:08:14,373 --> 01:08:16,133
Speaker 3: One of the first things you notice here is that

1274
01:08:16,173 --> 01:08:19,053
Speaker 3: the air is crisp and clean. I think I think

1275
01:08:19,613 --> 01:08:23,373
Speaker 3: somebody mentioned to me they're not used to seeing English

1276
01:08:23,373 --> 01:08:27,453
Speaker 3: signage without homeless people. It's interesting, you know, like you

1277
01:08:27,493 --> 01:08:32,093
Speaker 3: see a lot of birds and stores here. I still

1278
01:08:32,093 --> 01:08:34,013
Speaker 3: can't get used to people driving on the left side

1279
01:08:34,013 --> 01:08:37,573
Speaker 3: of the road. It's just like it literally cringe every

1280
01:08:37,573 --> 01:08:38,933
Speaker 3: time I'm it.

1281
01:08:38,933 --> 01:08:42,413
Speaker 2: Is the one area that I disagree with with you

1282
01:08:43,293 --> 01:08:46,533
Speaker 2: so far. Anyway, driving in the road, Well you're talking

1283
01:08:46,533 --> 01:08:49,693
Speaker 2: about driving on the right, Yeah, and that's where I belong.

1284
01:08:50,053 --> 01:08:55,413
Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, and it's better I could. I could

1285
01:08:55,453 --> 01:08:58,733
Speaker 3: never there's something terrifying to me. You know, I'm fifty eight.

1286
01:08:58,733 --> 01:09:00,573
Speaker 3: I'm just driving on one side of the road the

1287
01:09:00,573 --> 01:09:03,173
Speaker 3: whole my whole life. But I think that the first

1288
01:09:03,213 --> 01:09:08,613
Speaker 3: thing you notice, particularly coming from uh A, Buddhapest where

1289
01:09:08,613 --> 01:09:11,333
Speaker 3: I was, that the people in Buddhabet, like so many

1290
01:09:11,373 --> 01:09:14,973
Speaker 3: people smoke, which I think is completely insane. It's a

1291
01:09:15,213 --> 01:09:19,933
Speaker 3: truly horrific activity and obviously grossly detrimental to one's health.

1292
01:09:20,373 --> 01:09:22,413
Speaker 3: But people vape here, which is kind of weird. It's

1293
01:09:22,413 --> 01:09:24,213
Speaker 3: like a weird culture. But I'd much rather have them

1294
01:09:24,293 --> 01:09:26,573
Speaker 3: vaping than smoking, because when I walk by them vaping,

1295
01:09:26,613 --> 01:09:30,333
Speaker 3: it doesn't really bother me, but smoking's like it asphyxiates me.

1296
01:09:31,853 --> 01:09:35,653
Speaker 3: The climate's been been really good here. The building codes

1297
01:09:35,693 --> 01:09:37,333
Speaker 3: are kind of weird to me. I live in the

1298
01:09:37,373 --> 01:09:39,973
Speaker 3: CBD and I've been in some buildings like I don't

1299
01:09:39,973 --> 01:09:43,053
Speaker 3: know they I just can't. The whole idea that you know,

1300
01:09:43,133 --> 01:09:45,733
Speaker 3: you would push a button to exit a place is

1301
01:09:45,773 --> 01:09:47,533
Speaker 3: weird to me, Like, why don't you just open the door?

1302
01:09:47,533 --> 01:09:48,973
Speaker 3: What do you need to put a push a button for?

1303
01:09:49,213 --> 01:09:51,693
Speaker 3: It just seems like an extra layer of thing.

1304
01:09:52,573 --> 01:09:53,293
Speaker 2: Uh, you know.

1305
01:09:53,373 --> 01:09:55,653
Speaker 3: And the other thing is, you know the place where

1306
01:09:55,653 --> 01:09:58,453
Speaker 3: I'm staying in the CBD has glass doors, Like you

1307
01:09:58,493 --> 01:10:00,013
Speaker 3: could never do that in a lot of people just

1308
01:10:00,053 --> 01:10:01,293
Speaker 3: destroy the doors.

1309
01:10:01,533 --> 01:10:03,773
Speaker 2: Just completely about them to get out.

1310
01:10:03,893 --> 01:10:04,453
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I don't.

1311
01:10:04,533 --> 01:10:06,333
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well the reason for that is to keep the

1312
01:10:06,413 --> 01:10:09,013
Speaker 2: people that you don't want in your in your bi out.

1313
01:10:09,373 --> 01:10:11,333
Speaker 3: But they're walking in anyway every time you open the door.

1314
01:10:11,733 --> 01:10:13,733
Speaker 3: It's not it's not keeping out. You're not keeping on

1315
01:10:13,773 --> 01:10:18,013
Speaker 3: anybody issue. How you're keeping them, How you're keeping them on?

1316
01:10:18,253 --> 01:10:20,813
Speaker 2: Well, because every time you open the door they walk in.

1317
01:10:21,293 --> 01:10:24,293
Speaker 3: Well, we just have a sensor that opens the door

1318
01:10:24,293 --> 01:10:25,773
Speaker 3: when you're there. What's the difference.

1319
01:10:26,773 --> 01:10:29,413
Speaker 2: Oh, I see what you mean. You're not you're not

1320
01:10:29,453 --> 01:10:31,773
Speaker 2: you're not you're not concerned about having the door locked.

1321
01:10:33,733 --> 01:10:35,293
Speaker 3: No, I don't think you could do that in us

1322
01:10:35,293 --> 01:10:38,373
Speaker 3: because people just destroy it. But I don't, I don't, No,

1323
01:10:38,493 --> 01:10:41,453
Speaker 3: it's just weird to me. The public restaurants here buying

1324
01:10:41,533 --> 01:10:44,653
Speaker 3: large are good. The buses are buying large clean, they

1325
01:10:44,653 --> 01:10:47,733
Speaker 3: have you know, I think they have had felt seats

1326
01:10:48,053 --> 01:10:51,253
Speaker 3: if I remember correctly. No, I think so. I think

1327
01:10:51,293 --> 01:10:52,893
Speaker 3: the bus I rode on I took. I think I

1328
01:10:52,893 --> 01:10:54,613
Speaker 3: can look later. I think I took a picture of it.

1329
01:10:54,893 --> 01:10:57,253
Speaker 3: There's not a lot of graffiti. People are very nice here.

1330
01:10:57,453 --> 01:11:02,253
Speaker 3: It's very uh, it's a very but you know, Kiwis

1331
01:11:02,293 --> 01:11:06,173
Speaker 3: are very I don't know, they're they're they're really like

1332
01:11:07,333 --> 01:11:10,533
Speaker 3: they have a kind of innocence about them, you know,

1333
01:11:10,733 --> 01:11:14,493
Speaker 3: they have a kind of like it's hard to explain.

1334
01:11:14,533 --> 01:11:19,133
Speaker 3: They have a kind of anti cynicism about them in

1335
01:11:19,173 --> 01:11:22,773
Speaker 3: a certain way in relation to other people, in relation

1336
01:11:22,853 --> 01:11:26,693
Speaker 3: to interpersonal interactions, I find them very easy to deal with.

1337
01:11:27,093 --> 01:11:29,573
Speaker 3: Maybe that's just because they treat me. They're extra nice

1338
01:11:29,573 --> 01:11:30,493
Speaker 3: to me because I'm a foreigner.

1339
01:11:30,493 --> 01:11:35,973
Speaker 2: I don't know. Could be, yeah, but most most people say,

1340
01:11:36,053 --> 01:11:38,733
Speaker 2: most people say when they come here that the locals,

1341
01:11:39,053 --> 01:11:42,093
Speaker 2: the natives, if I may, are very friendly. Yeah.

1342
01:11:42,253 --> 01:11:44,013
Speaker 3: But the number one thing that I like about this,

1343
01:11:44,093 --> 01:11:46,213
Speaker 3: beside the vistas and the view and the people are great.

1344
01:11:46,573 --> 01:11:50,533
Speaker 3: It's truly it's the air. The air is incredible here.

1345
01:11:50,533 --> 01:11:52,373
Speaker 3: Like I sleep with a seapap. I was telling you this.

1346
01:11:52,493 --> 01:11:55,493
Speaker 3: I sleep with a seapap and there's an air filter

1347
01:11:55,613 --> 01:11:58,133
Speaker 3: on that and I've only changed it once in the

1348
01:11:58,173 --> 01:11:59,973
Speaker 3: two months i've been here. Usually I have to change

1349
01:11:59,973 --> 01:12:03,613
Speaker 3: it every three weeks. It's because it gets black. I mean,

1350
01:12:03,653 --> 01:12:05,253
Speaker 3: even when I change it was just barely.

1351
01:12:05,853 --> 01:12:07,293
Speaker 2: But I don't know. I really like it here.

1352
01:12:07,693 --> 01:12:09,733
Speaker 3: There's not a lot of hustle and bustle, which I

1353
01:12:09,733 --> 01:12:11,413
Speaker 3: don't think I could live here, but I could certainly

1354
01:12:11,453 --> 01:12:12,053
Speaker 3: retire here.

1355
01:12:12,093 --> 01:12:13,893
Speaker 2: Well, from what you've seen, if you were going to

1356
01:12:13,973 --> 01:12:15,373
Speaker 2: live here, where would you choose?

1357
01:12:15,893 --> 01:12:19,173
Speaker 3: Christ Church is pretty nice. I don't think I could

1358
01:12:19,173 --> 01:12:21,693
Speaker 3: live in Wellington. Know that that's nice. It's super windy there.

1359
01:12:21,733 --> 01:12:23,253
Speaker 3: I almost got lifted off my feet.

1360
01:12:25,013 --> 01:12:26,533
Speaker 2: I know. Auckland might be kind of nice.

1361
01:12:26,533 --> 01:12:28,653
Speaker 3: There's a lot happening, a lot of restaurants is good.

1362
01:12:28,693 --> 01:12:30,973
Speaker 3: Jiu Jitsu in Auckland is a great jiu jitsu.

1363
01:12:31,253 --> 01:12:31,653
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1364
01:12:31,733 --> 01:12:34,213
Speaker 3: I don't know where I choose. I could see myself.

1365
01:12:34,253 --> 01:12:38,053
Speaker 3: I guess retiring here. I guess you didn't ask me this,

1366
01:12:38,093 --> 01:12:40,653
Speaker 3: but I'm gonna. I'm gonna give you my unsolicited advice,

1367
01:12:44,653 --> 01:12:49,213
Speaker 3: my unsolicited, sincere advice to you is And I realized

1368
01:12:49,213 --> 01:12:50,813
Speaker 3: I'm gonna say this, and people are gonna roll their

1369
01:12:50,853 --> 01:12:53,253
Speaker 3: eyes and they're going to sink this is never gonna happen.

1370
01:12:53,413 --> 01:12:54,693
Speaker 2: This is like some crazy.

1371
01:12:54,453 --> 01:12:59,653
Speaker 3: American do not let large numbers of unskilled Muslim men

1372
01:12:59,693 --> 01:13:06,413
Speaker 3: into your country. That's it, that's my that's my unsolicited

1373
01:13:06,453 --> 01:13:07,013
Speaker 3: advice to you.

1374
01:13:09,733 --> 01:13:10,373
Speaker 2: Join the club.

1375
01:13:10,853 --> 01:13:13,653
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's another thing no one's talking about, and no

1376
01:13:13,693 --> 01:13:14,733
Speaker 3: one's being honest about.

1377
01:13:15,413 --> 01:13:22,173
Speaker 2: Quite true, It's it's now, I'm not gonna you're the guest.

1378
01:13:22,613 --> 01:13:26,533
Speaker 2: I'm just I'm just here the guide here. I've got

1379
01:13:26,573 --> 01:13:29,173
Speaker 2: plenty of opportunities to say what I really think. But

1380
01:13:29,213 --> 01:13:31,573
Speaker 2: I but you, you're correct, And you've only got to

1381
01:13:31,613 --> 01:13:33,733
Speaker 2: look at Britain at the moment to see exact people.

1382
01:13:34,093 --> 01:13:39,693
Speaker 2: All of Western Europe we're talking about.

1383
01:13:38,693 --> 01:13:41,413
Speaker 3: And and and the all three of those things together

1384
01:13:41,533 --> 01:13:45,213
Speaker 3: unskilled Muslim men and it's not seek. Seeks have extremely

1385
01:13:45,253 --> 01:13:50,293
Speaker 3: low rates of crime, poverty, homelessness, et cetera. If anything,

1386
01:13:50,333 --> 01:13:52,333
Speaker 3: they are a lubricant to the society.

1387
01:13:52,973 --> 01:13:57,813
Speaker 2: My last question is you were a professor once. Yes,

1388
01:13:59,413 --> 01:14:01,493
Speaker 2: we know the story of you becoming a non professor.

1389
01:14:02,053 --> 01:14:08,213
Speaker 2: Question is you are now a philosopher, public philosopher? Any

1390
01:14:08,413 --> 01:14:09,693
Speaker 2: become a public philosopher.

1391
01:14:09,973 --> 01:14:13,173
Speaker 3: That's a really good question. I still haven't figured that out.

1392
01:14:13,613 --> 01:14:15,693
Speaker 2: You how do you how do you.

1393
01:14:15,613 --> 01:14:16,773
Speaker 3: Become a philosopher?

1394
01:14:17,013 --> 01:14:17,773
Speaker 2: I guess you have to.

1395
01:14:17,853 --> 01:14:20,653
Speaker 3: Like I go around the world and my YouTube channel

1396
01:14:20,893 --> 01:14:24,013
Speaker 3: Peter Bogosian bog h O s SI N, and I

1397
01:14:24,133 --> 01:14:27,293
Speaker 3: just interview people. I do this thing called Spectrum Street Epistemology,

1398
01:14:27,333 --> 01:14:29,733
Speaker 3: and we ask people how confident they are in their

1399
01:14:29,733 --> 01:14:32,213
Speaker 3: beliefs and if they're calibrated to the evidence. And I

1400
01:14:32,293 --> 01:14:34,813
Speaker 3: go to do it in multiple languages all across the world.

1401
01:14:36,053 --> 01:14:38,413
Speaker 3: It's very difficult to move in the public space unless

1402
01:14:38,413 --> 01:14:41,693
Speaker 3: you're on Twitter, you know currently X It's very you

1403
01:14:41,733 --> 01:14:43,773
Speaker 3: can be done, but it's hard, especially the angles here,

1404
01:14:43,813 --> 01:14:48,693
Speaker 3: it's hard to do. So you have social media metrics,

1405
01:14:48,813 --> 01:14:51,053
Speaker 3: you know. I have a university affiliation now, which helps

1406
01:14:51,093 --> 01:14:53,413
Speaker 3: a lot. I'm affiliated with the University of Austin. I'm

1407
01:14:53,453 --> 01:14:56,133
Speaker 3: a Funding Faculty advisor, so that I was a funding

1408
01:14:56,133 --> 01:14:59,573
Speaker 3: faculty fellow, So that helps a lot to have university affiliation.

1409
01:15:01,133 --> 01:15:02,453
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I tour around.

1410
01:15:02,173 --> 01:15:04,733
Speaker 3: I do debates, I give lectures, I give talks, I

1411
01:15:04,773 --> 01:15:06,853
Speaker 3: talk to I've talked to literally. I mean, you can

1412
01:15:06,893 --> 01:15:09,653
Speaker 3: watch a few thousands and thousands people about people I

1413
01:15:09,693 --> 01:15:10,173
Speaker 3: don't know.

1414
01:15:10,213 --> 01:15:11,813
Speaker 2: There are no actors on anything I do.

1415
01:15:11,853 --> 01:15:14,053
Speaker 3: They're just random people off the streets or people who

1416
01:15:14,053 --> 01:15:15,733
Speaker 3: come to my events, and I'll talk to them about anything.

1417
01:15:15,773 --> 01:15:19,373
Speaker 2: I'll talk to anybody about anything, and it's all I

1418
01:15:19,413 --> 01:15:20,173
Speaker 2: still hold that.

1419
01:15:20,253 --> 01:15:22,773
Speaker 3: You know, in the Gorgias, Plato says it is better

1420
01:15:22,813 --> 01:15:25,733
Speaker 3: to be refuted than it is to refute. That's the

1421
01:15:25,773 --> 01:15:28,253
Speaker 3: thing that the people at the New Zealand Herald have

1422
01:15:28,293 --> 01:15:30,173
Speaker 3: to get into their heads. It's not a good thing

1423
01:15:30,213 --> 01:15:32,453
Speaker 3: to be an ideologue. It's a good thing to change

1424
01:15:32,453 --> 01:15:34,453
Speaker 3: her mind in the base of evidence. It's a good

1425
01:15:34,493 --> 01:15:36,493
Speaker 3: thing to be honest about what you believe. It's a

1426
01:15:36,493 --> 01:15:39,133
Speaker 3: good thing to not deceive people about what you believe.

1427
01:15:39,413 --> 01:15:41,853
Speaker 3: It's a good thing to not deceive people about what

1428
01:15:41,893 --> 01:15:44,333
Speaker 3: you think is in the best interest of society. When

1429
01:15:44,373 --> 01:15:48,253
Speaker 3: you're just drank your own kool aid, I mean, this

1430
01:15:48,373 --> 01:15:51,573
Speaker 3: is a disgrace and people aren't calling them out. So

1431
01:15:51,693 --> 01:15:53,493
Speaker 3: you be a public philosopher. The other thing is you

1432
01:15:53,533 --> 01:15:55,373
Speaker 3: just be honest with people. I'm beholden to no one.

1433
01:15:55,413 --> 01:15:57,653
Speaker 3: I can say I've said in this interview exactly what

1434
01:15:57,733 --> 01:15:59,973
Speaker 3: I think. I'm literally beholden to no one.

1435
01:16:00,653 --> 01:16:03,973
Speaker 2: So how do you How do you make a living? Oh?

1436
01:16:04,013 --> 01:16:05,453
Speaker 2: I make a living in a bunch of ways.

1437
01:16:06,093 --> 01:16:09,413
Speaker 3: I have a nonprofit foundation that people donate too, and

1438
01:16:09,453 --> 01:16:11,413
Speaker 3: that enables me to do things for free, like to

1439
01:16:11,413 --> 01:16:15,213
Speaker 3: come to New Zealand. They paid for my airfare. But

1440
01:16:15,253 --> 01:16:17,133
Speaker 3: I don't take any money, you know, I give talks here,

1441
01:16:17,373 --> 01:16:20,733
Speaker 3: the economy, the economy. No, I just do things. I

1442
01:16:20,893 --> 01:16:22,493
Speaker 3: just do a lot of stuff for free, a lot

1443
01:16:22,533 --> 01:16:22,733
Speaker 3: of it.

1444
01:16:22,853 --> 01:16:25,333
Speaker 2: No, No, No economy on the plane.

1445
01:16:25,373 --> 01:16:28,293
Speaker 3: Oh, always economy always. It's you know, I'm sixteen hours

1446
01:16:28,373 --> 01:16:30,173
Speaker 3: or twenty one hours in this little flight. I'm like

1447
01:16:30,173 --> 01:16:32,573
Speaker 3: a chicken and a coop. Yeah, it's not comfortable, and

1448
01:16:32,613 --> 01:16:34,453
Speaker 3: I'm fifty eight, so it's not exactly great.

1449
01:16:34,493 --> 01:16:41,533
Speaker 2: But so yeah, so here's here's another question. Then you're

1450
01:16:41,573 --> 01:16:44,333
Speaker 2: fifty eight, you're sitting in this little coop seat and

1451
01:16:44,413 --> 01:16:47,373
Speaker 2: you're crowded around, and the tortots are dirty and yeah, everything.

1452
01:16:47,813 --> 01:16:51,333
Speaker 2: So one of my favorite questions is to promote age

1453
01:16:51,333 --> 01:16:54,333
Speaker 2: a little bit and say, well, ask so where do

1454
01:16:54,333 --> 01:16:55,733
Speaker 2: you want to be sitting when you're seventy eight?

1455
01:16:57,933 --> 01:17:00,373
Speaker 3: Funny, I just did a show with a comedy seller

1456
01:17:00,413 --> 01:17:05,413
Speaker 3: on this, my friend Noam. I think that there are

1457
01:17:06,093 --> 01:17:08,173
Speaker 3: to be in good health, and I think that there

1458
01:17:08,173 --> 01:17:11,573
Speaker 3: are ways to do that are that enable one to

1459
01:17:11,653 --> 01:17:14,213
Speaker 3: level up as a human. I can talk about those,

1460
01:17:14,253 --> 01:17:15,813
Speaker 3: but no one will do it, so there's no point.

1461
01:17:15,853 --> 01:17:18,293
Speaker 3: That's what I do. I mean extremely good shape. I

1462
01:17:18,333 --> 01:17:21,813
Speaker 3: just wrestled today for an hour with guys uh half

1463
01:17:21,933 --> 01:17:25,533
Speaker 3: literally half my age, So I think I want to

1464
01:17:25,533 --> 01:17:27,413
Speaker 3: be in good shape. I want to keep doing what

1465
01:17:27,533 --> 01:17:31,413
Speaker 3: I'm doing. I want to do work that matters. I

1466
01:17:31,453 --> 01:17:33,973
Speaker 3: want to have people who love me and care about me,

1467
01:17:34,013 --> 01:17:36,453
Speaker 3: and people I love and care about. I want to

1468
01:17:36,493 --> 01:17:39,573
Speaker 3: be somewhat financially secure so I don't have to worry

1469
01:17:39,573 --> 01:17:44,813
Speaker 3: about money. I think ultimately I want to make sure

1470
01:17:44,853 --> 01:17:47,133
Speaker 3: I leave the world a better place than when I entered,

1471
01:17:48,093 --> 01:17:51,173
Speaker 3: and I think I'm I'm doing the best that I

1472
01:17:51,173 --> 01:17:53,253
Speaker 3: can to do that. Now, you know, to bring my

1473
01:17:53,453 --> 01:17:54,973
Speaker 3: Remember once when I was a kid, I saw this

1474
01:17:55,333 --> 01:18:00,053
Speaker 3: movie of the Some some people were like butchering apes

1475
01:18:00,333 --> 01:18:02,493
Speaker 3: and he's a ghastly movie. I started with my dad

1476
01:18:02,813 --> 01:18:04,453
Speaker 3: and I said to my dad, man, we've got to

1477
01:18:04,493 --> 01:18:06,893
Speaker 3: do something about the apes. My dad turned to me

1478
01:18:07,213 --> 01:18:09,053
Speaker 3: in just no entertain and said, what the fuck are

1479
01:18:09,053 --> 01:18:11,133
Speaker 3: you going to do about the apes? You can't do

1480
01:18:11,173 --> 01:18:13,213
Speaker 3: a damn thing about the apes. Why don't you do

1481
01:18:13,253 --> 01:18:16,293
Speaker 3: something you can do something about? And I'm like, Wow, why.

1482
01:18:16,173 --> 01:18:16,653
Speaker 2: Don't I do so?

1483
01:18:16,733 --> 01:18:18,853
Speaker 3: Then then I think, well, what can I do something about?

1484
01:18:18,853 --> 01:18:19,493
Speaker 2: Well? I can.

1485
01:18:20,013 --> 01:18:21,933
Speaker 3: You know, I love working with prison inmates. I love

1486
01:18:21,973 --> 01:18:25,373
Speaker 3: working with gang members. So I'm working. I might come

1487
01:18:25,413 --> 01:18:27,213
Speaker 3: back to New Zealand, hopefully I'll work in the prisons.

1488
01:18:27,253 --> 01:18:30,813
Speaker 3: I love working with it's with schools with disadvantaged kids.

1489
01:18:30,853 --> 01:18:31,093
Speaker 2: You know.

1490
01:18:31,773 --> 01:18:34,253
Speaker 3: I'm doing this thing at Vertex Academy and we'll I'll

1491
01:18:34,253 --> 01:18:36,893
Speaker 3: be you know, helping It's an all black school system

1492
01:18:36,973 --> 01:18:40,373
Speaker 3: in New York. Taking what I'm good at, teaching people

1493
01:18:40,373 --> 01:18:44,653
Speaker 3: how to engage ideas and be honest with themselves and

1494
01:18:44,773 --> 01:18:45,973
Speaker 3: honest about their beliefs.

1495
01:18:46,013 --> 01:18:46,933
Speaker 2: So, yeah, where I.

1496
01:18:46,853 --> 01:18:48,133
Speaker 3: Want to be at seven eight is I want to

1497
01:18:48,213 --> 01:18:49,373
Speaker 3: keep doing work that matters.

1498
01:18:49,493 --> 01:18:52,253
Speaker 2: Okay, Now, now let's get to the question that I asked,

1499
01:18:53,533 --> 01:18:55,653
Speaker 2: Where do you want to sit on the plane when

1500
01:18:55,693 --> 01:18:56,893
Speaker 2: you're seventy eight? Oh?

1501
01:18:56,893 --> 01:18:59,333
Speaker 3: I probably won't be flying at seventy eight very much.

1502
01:18:59,413 --> 01:19:02,773
Speaker 3: But I mean, I just it's a gratuitous expense to

1503
01:19:02,813 --> 01:19:04,853
Speaker 3: spend in first class. I just wouldn't do that, even

1504
01:19:04,893 --> 01:19:06,413
Speaker 3: if I had the money. I don't have the money,

1505
01:19:06,413 --> 01:19:07,533
Speaker 3: but I wouldn't do that even if.

1506
01:19:07,493 --> 01:19:11,053
Speaker 2: I did a class below that. Yeah, probably that class.

1507
01:19:11,253 --> 01:19:13,853
Speaker 2: That's probably a good one. It's probably a good one.

1508
01:19:13,973 --> 01:19:17,653
Speaker 2: That's probably where finally I got the answer I wanted. Yeah,

1509
01:19:17,813 --> 01:19:21,613
Speaker 2: when you were here last Yeah, there was a standout

1510
01:19:21,933 --> 01:19:25,853
Speaker 2: of that trip. Yeah, I found out later, what was it?

1511
01:19:25,933 --> 01:19:28,013
Speaker 2: The best bottle of wine I ever had? That one?

1512
01:19:28,133 --> 01:19:28,693
Speaker 2: That's the one.

1513
01:19:28,813 --> 01:19:30,853
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was the best bottle one I have ever had.

1514
01:19:30,973 --> 01:19:31,373
Speaker 2: You know that?

1515
01:19:31,573 --> 01:19:34,213
Speaker 3: People told me, Oh late in Smith. You know, he's

1516
01:19:34,693 --> 01:19:36,453
Speaker 3: New Zealand's Russel and Bob.

1517
01:19:36,493 --> 01:19:37,733
Speaker 2: You got to be careful of him.

1518
01:19:37,773 --> 01:19:40,893
Speaker 3: You got to be people telling like truly terrible things

1519
01:19:40,893 --> 01:19:41,253
Speaker 3: about you.

1520
01:19:41,493 --> 01:19:42,373
Speaker 2: And I really loved you.

1521
01:19:42,413 --> 01:19:43,653
Speaker 3: I got there and I had a great time. I

1522
01:19:43,653 --> 01:19:45,533
Speaker 3: thought you were really great into lawk with her and

1523
01:19:45,853 --> 01:19:48,173
Speaker 3: I had really like what are these people talking about?

1524
01:19:48,293 --> 01:19:50,493
Speaker 3: I have literally no idea what they're talking about.

1525
01:19:50,893 --> 01:19:52,773
Speaker 2: And then you gave me I think you.

1526
01:19:52,773 --> 01:19:55,533
Speaker 3: Kept inviting me back for segments, right and then you

1527
01:19:55,573 --> 01:19:57,533
Speaker 3: gave me a bottle of wine. I thought it was

1528
01:19:57,533 --> 01:19:59,173
Speaker 3: a nice gesture. I didn't think too much about it,

1529
01:19:59,213 --> 01:20:00,893
Speaker 3: and I drank it. I was completely blown wise. It's

1530
01:20:00,933 --> 01:20:02,573
Speaker 3: literally the best bottle of wine I ever have. I've

1531
01:20:02,573 --> 01:20:05,813
Speaker 3: probably told literally a thousand people about that bottle wine.

1532
01:20:06,013 --> 01:20:08,013
Speaker 2: That's what you That's what your pa told me when

1533
01:20:08,013 --> 01:20:10,013
Speaker 2: she it's true to be six months ago and said

1534
01:20:10,013 --> 01:20:12,053
Speaker 2: he's coming down. Do you want to? You know? And

1535
01:20:12,573 --> 01:20:16,013
Speaker 2: here we are, so I have for you another bottle

1536
01:20:16,053 --> 01:20:19,333
Speaker 2: of wine. I'm not sure it's going to measure up

1537
01:20:19,373 --> 01:20:21,693
Speaker 2: to the one that you had last time because because

1538
01:20:21,693 --> 01:20:24,733
Speaker 2: of circumstances, but I might even give you two just

1539
01:20:24,733 --> 01:20:26,893
Speaker 2: to make up for it. It's very kind of, very

1540
01:20:26,933 --> 01:20:27,213
Speaker 2: kind of you.

1541
01:20:27,333 --> 01:20:30,973
Speaker 3: I find you to be an honest person, and I

1542
01:20:31,013 --> 01:20:33,373
Speaker 3: appreciate you give me the time to think, and I

1543
01:20:33,413 --> 01:20:36,413
Speaker 3: appreciate the opportunity to have gotten to a little know

1544
01:20:36,493 --> 01:20:38,773
Speaker 3: you a little bit more with my son and having

1545
01:20:38,773 --> 01:20:40,493
Speaker 3: dinner with us. And I'm just very grateful.

1546
01:20:40,533 --> 01:20:42,213
Speaker 2: I'm glad I met your son. He's a good boy.

1547
01:20:42,373 --> 01:20:43,053
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1548
01:20:43,293 --> 01:20:44,013
Speaker 3: Appreciate that.

1549
01:20:45,373 --> 01:20:47,373
Speaker 2: Peter Bagotia, where do we find you?

1550
01:20:47,453 --> 01:20:51,293
Speaker 3: As the saying goes, I'm on XT at Peter Bagosian

1551
01:20:51,373 --> 01:20:53,213
Speaker 3: b O G H O S S I N. I'm

1552
01:20:53,253 --> 01:20:56,893
Speaker 3: on YouTube, Instagram, on pretty much every every platform. I

1553
01:20:56,893 --> 01:20:59,853
Speaker 3: have a podcast like everybody, and I do these street

1554
01:20:59,853 --> 01:21:01,693
Speaker 3: events where I go around I talk to random people

1555
01:21:01,733 --> 01:21:04,213
Speaker 3: I don't know, so fun stuff.

1556
01:21:04,213 --> 01:21:05,773
Speaker 2: Man, you are now free to go.

1557
01:21:06,213 --> 01:21:06,573
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1558
01:21:06,653 --> 01:21:08,733
Speaker 2: I'll be tired. I'll be tired to this for the

1559
01:21:08,733 --> 01:21:11,813
Speaker 2: next two hours editing. Okay, well cool, well, thank you.

1560
01:21:12,013 --> 01:21:15,613
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe maybe before that, we'll shear something on the

1561
01:21:15,613 --> 01:21:27,173
Speaker 2: way out. Liverrix is an antihistamine made in Switzerland to

1562
01:21:27,213 --> 01:21:31,413
Speaker 2: the highest quality. Leverix relieves hay fever and skin allergies

1563
01:21:31,733 --> 01:21:35,813
Speaker 2: or itchy skin. It's a dual action antihistamine and has

1564
01:21:35,893 --> 01:21:41,493
Speaker 2: a unique nasal decongestent action. It's fast acting for fast relief,

1565
01:21:41,933 --> 01:21:44,693
Speaker 2: and it works in under an hour and lasts for

1566
01:21:44,733 --> 01:21:48,173
Speaker 2: over twenty four hours. Leverrix is a tiny tablet that

1567
01:21:48,293 --> 01:21:52,333
Speaker 2: unblocks the nose, deals with itchy eyes, and stops sneezing.

1568
01:21:52,613 --> 01:21:56,893
Speaker 2: Lebrix is an antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quantity.

1569
01:21:57,373 --> 01:22:00,533
Speaker 2: So next time you're in need of an effective antihistamine,

1570
01:22:00,933 --> 01:22:06,013
Speaker 2: call into the pharmacy and ask for Leverrix lv Rix

1571
01:22:06,453 --> 01:22:09,573
Speaker 2: Leverrix and always read the lake will take us directed

1572
01:22:09,813 --> 01:22:13,653
Speaker 2: and if symptoms persist, see your health professional farmer broker

1573
01:22:13,693 --> 01:22:27,973
Speaker 2: Auckland Layton Smith. All right, missus producer in for the

1574
01:22:28,013 --> 01:22:30,533
Speaker 2: mail room at number two hundred and seventy one. How

1575
01:22:30,533 --> 01:22:32,773
Speaker 2: are you doing good? How are you? I thought you

1576
01:22:32,773 --> 01:22:33,413
Speaker 2: were too hot.

1577
01:22:33,813 --> 01:22:36,613
Speaker 4: It's a pretty hot day. But rather have this than

1578
01:22:36,653 --> 01:22:38,093
Speaker 4: the pouring rain and freezing cold.

1579
01:22:38,213 --> 01:22:38,613
Speaker 5: Thank you?

1580
01:22:38,893 --> 01:22:42,373
Speaker 2: Okay, now, good morning, mister Smith. While I enjoyed the

1581
01:22:42,413 --> 01:22:45,453
Speaker 2: exchange with mister Jones, there was an issue that I

1582
01:22:45,453 --> 01:22:50,093
Speaker 2: believe encapsulates the actions of the Mary Elite and Mary Party,

1583
01:22:50,933 --> 01:22:55,493
Speaker 2: a concept extensively explored by historian Christopher Lash in his

1584
01:22:55,613 --> 01:23:00,053
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy nine work The Culture of Narcissism American Life

1585
01:23:00,333 --> 01:23:04,333
Speaker 2: in an age of diminishing expectations. Let's strung around a

1586
01:23:04,333 --> 01:23:07,493
Speaker 2: bit lately, hadn't anyway, goes on, We've witnessed the self

1587
01:23:07,533 --> 01:23:12,573
Speaker 2: absorbed Mary elite promoting Maori interests to the clear detriment

1588
01:23:12,613 --> 01:23:15,053
Speaker 2: of the rest of the country. Their actions aligned with

1589
01:23:15,133 --> 01:23:19,373
Speaker 2: the principles of cultural narcissism, where a group's self centeredness

1590
01:23:19,773 --> 01:23:24,173
Speaker 2: leads to prioritizing their interests above national well being. This

1591
01:23:24,253 --> 01:23:29,253
Speaker 2: approach fosters division and weakens national unity, which ironically seems

1592
01:23:29,253 --> 01:23:32,493
Speaker 2: to be their objective all the while they claim victim

1593
01:23:32,573 --> 01:23:38,333
Speaker 2: status from those oppressive colonizers. Now, while advocating for cultural

1594
01:23:38,373 --> 01:23:42,253
Speaker 2: identity is important, it should never come at the expense

1595
01:23:42,293 --> 01:23:47,133
Speaker 2: of marginalizing others. A balanced approach that respects and integrates

1596
01:23:47,173 --> 01:23:52,933
Speaker 2: the various cultural perspectives is essential for fostering a cohesive

1597
01:23:53,013 --> 01:23:57,493
Speaker 2: and inclusive society. However, the Marrie elites have shown no

1598
01:23:57,653 --> 01:24:01,493
Speaker 2: interest in that superb piece of thought and writing. Thank

1599
01:24:01,573 --> 01:24:05,773
Speaker 2: you from someone in Brisbane.

1600
01:24:06,413 --> 01:24:08,973
Speaker 4: Leyton Wayne says, what a start the new year of

1601
01:24:09,013 --> 01:24:12,253
Speaker 4: your podcast. Since the Coalition was formed, I've found Shane

1602
01:24:12,373 --> 01:24:15,493
Speaker 4: very interesting. When he is interviewed, he gives credit where

1603
01:24:15,533 --> 01:24:18,773
Speaker 4: credit is due to his coalition partners, which is unusual

1604
01:24:18,773 --> 01:24:22,693
Speaker 4: in New Zealand politics. Your podcast drew him out further

1605
01:24:22,813 --> 01:24:25,453
Speaker 4: on several issues. And most people I know just want

1606
01:24:25,453 --> 01:24:28,653
Speaker 4: to have a constructive debate on the treaty, but all

1607
01:24:28,733 --> 01:24:32,173
Speaker 4: legacy media want to do is cover protest, which just

1608
01:24:32,293 --> 01:24:35,933
Speaker 4: ostracizes them as the media. Soawce even more, I put

1609
01:24:35,973 --> 01:24:38,693
Speaker 4: TV one News on the other day for the first

1610
01:24:38,693 --> 01:24:41,173
Speaker 4: time in weeks and after the first two items turned

1611
01:24:41,173 --> 01:24:45,093
Speaker 4: it off. Can't anyone just report the news objectively anymore

1612
01:24:45,133 --> 01:24:47,693
Speaker 4: and let the receiver decide their views are at all,

1613
01:24:48,093 --> 01:24:51,613
Speaker 4: rather than being told what to think. I was impressed

1614
01:24:51,613 --> 01:24:54,573
Speaker 4: with many of the ways Shane put things such as

1615
01:24:55,093 --> 01:25:00,933
Speaker 4: Trump's inauguration speech unmanacling and unfettering people from being cocooned

1616
01:25:01,013 --> 01:25:04,533
Speaker 4: as unjust for all the wrongs of history to party

1617
01:25:04,613 --> 01:25:08,013
Speaker 4: Mauri's foul conception of where Mary sits is a crutch

1618
01:25:08,053 --> 01:25:11,573
Speaker 4: which stops people from taking responsibility. They use it as

1619
01:25:11,573 --> 01:25:15,693
Speaker 4: a recruitment tool, waste land of TikTok and other such

1620
01:25:15,733 --> 01:25:20,053
Speaker 4: intellectual deserts. He asks, what is the essence of being

1621
01:25:20,093 --> 01:25:23,133
Speaker 4: a New Zealander? We must rail against the conceptions of

1622
01:25:23,253 --> 01:25:27,413
Speaker 4: history's worst actions forming everything we are now and deliberate

1623
01:25:28,013 --> 01:25:33,053
Speaker 4: and deliberate on Wow what statements? And the echo chamber

1624
01:25:33,053 --> 01:25:38,293
Speaker 4: of social media represents microaggression and amplify as the environment

1625
01:25:38,413 --> 01:25:42,773
Speaker 4: we have by seeing small slites amplified, which fuels grievance,

1626
01:25:42,893 --> 01:25:47,133
Speaker 4: culture and legacy media celebrates it. There was a lot more, so,

1627
01:25:47,213 --> 01:25:49,213
Speaker 4: thank you so much, and I do trust we hear

1628
01:25:49,253 --> 01:25:52,493
Speaker 4: from Shane further in the future. I've already sent your

1629
01:25:52,493 --> 01:25:55,453
Speaker 4: podcast link onto two sets of friends who I am

1630
01:25:55,533 --> 01:25:57,333
Speaker 4: sure will appreciate it a lot.

1631
01:25:57,733 --> 01:25:58,733
Speaker 5: And that's from Wayne.

1632
01:25:59,293 --> 01:26:02,253
Speaker 2: Wayne, that's very much appreciated. Thank you, and just see

1633
01:26:02,253 --> 01:26:05,733
Speaker 2: if you can double up on your two Yeah, think

1634
01:26:05,773 --> 01:26:10,093
Speaker 2: double up every time. It's varied mail room this week,

1635
01:26:10,413 --> 01:26:13,453
Speaker 2: and I'm pleased about it, Laton. As an ex member

1636
01:26:13,453 --> 01:26:16,613
Speaker 2: of the RNZ Navy, it's been a very difficult time

1637
01:26:16,693 --> 01:26:19,613
Speaker 2: to watch a proud navy turn itself into a woke

1638
01:26:19,853 --> 01:26:24,213
Speaker 2: cult outfit with very little integrity. The hm n z

1639
01:26:24,533 --> 01:26:27,973
Speaker 2: S munawood Nui was sunk on a reef in Samoa

1640
01:26:28,573 --> 01:26:33,173
Speaker 2: by a DEI appointed commanding officer who had never commanded

1641
01:26:33,213 --> 01:26:36,573
Speaker 2: the ship before, but came from the Royal Navy. She

1642
01:26:36,693 --> 01:26:39,253
Speaker 2: and her wife did a motor home tour of New

1643
01:26:39,333 --> 01:26:42,173
Speaker 2: Zealand a few years back. She loved New Zealand so

1644
01:26:42,373 --> 01:26:45,653
Speaker 2: much that she did in exchange to the New Zealand Navy.

1645
01:26:46,253 --> 01:26:48,613
Speaker 2: They gave her command of a ship that had a

1646
01:26:48,693 --> 01:26:52,733
Speaker 2: very complicated drive system that no other naval ship has,

1647
01:26:53,173 --> 01:26:55,733
Speaker 2: hence its sunk on a reef. There have been two

1648
01:26:55,813 --> 01:26:59,653
Speaker 2: other occasions where female DEI appointed officers have been relieved

1649
01:26:59,653 --> 01:27:03,493
Speaker 2: of command. One crashed her ship on the jetty in Auckland,

1650
01:27:03,533 --> 01:27:07,493
Speaker 2: causing hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage. The second

1651
01:27:07,613 --> 01:27:10,533
Speaker 2: for being a bully of the crew below her and

1652
01:27:10,613 --> 01:27:13,413
Speaker 2: her use of standover methods that the crew found very

1653
01:27:13,453 --> 01:27:17,053
Speaker 2: difficult to deal with. So the complaints came flying from

1654
01:27:17,053 --> 01:27:22,253
Speaker 2: all levels that of hence budget is point nine of

1655
01:27:22,333 --> 01:27:26,413
Speaker 2: one percent zero point nine of one percent of GDP

1656
01:27:27,573 --> 01:27:30,333
Speaker 2: and the Navy is losing a seventeen percent of personnel

1657
01:27:30,373 --> 01:27:33,453
Speaker 2: every year since the COVID lockdown. I had two young

1658
01:27:33,493 --> 01:27:36,573
Speaker 2: neighbors that left the Navy after five years and are

1659
01:27:36,573 --> 01:27:39,693
Speaker 2: now in the Australian Navy twice the pay and far

1660
01:27:39,773 --> 01:27:43,533
Speaker 2: better conditions. No DEI and no marie culture and married

1661
01:27:43,573 --> 01:27:46,773
Speaker 2: bullies that's so rife in the New Zealand defense forces.

1662
01:27:47,133 --> 01:27:50,813
Speaker 2: No white intelligent guys want to stay. When people complain that,

1663
01:27:50,973 --> 01:27:53,813
Speaker 2: they get told to get on with things as the

1664
01:27:53,813 --> 01:27:56,133
Speaker 2: married culture is part of the New Zealand way of life,

1665
01:27:56,533 --> 01:28:00,173
Speaker 2: so these highly intelligent people leave. The Navy has forty

1666
01:28:00,213 --> 01:28:03,813
Speaker 2: percent women and forty percent marry that's the DEI quota,

1667
01:28:04,453 --> 01:28:07,333
Speaker 2: so it's no longer the defence force. I knew she

1668
01:28:07,533 --> 01:28:10,773
Speaker 2: is from Trevor I'm not sure about the I can't

1669
01:28:10,813 --> 01:28:15,813
Speaker 2: confirm those forty percent figures, but Driva sounds like he

1670
01:28:15,893 --> 01:28:16,893
Speaker 2: might have a good idea.

1671
01:28:17,453 --> 01:28:20,653
Speaker 4: Lad Allister says Lad and I know many people say this,

1672
01:28:20,733 --> 01:28:24,533
Speaker 4: but your podcasts are such a blessing. I just listened

1673
01:28:24,573 --> 01:28:27,373
Speaker 4: to podcasts two seventy and must say I like to

1674
01:28:27,493 --> 01:28:30,253
Speaker 4: interview with Shane Jones. Now there's a man that has

1675
01:28:30,293 --> 01:28:33,573
Speaker 4: common sense, which is in such short supply with most politicians.

1676
01:28:34,453 --> 01:28:38,013
Speaker 4: On that note, Minister Watts could do with a large

1677
01:28:38,053 --> 01:28:40,893
Speaker 4: dose of common sense, as well as quite a few

1678
01:28:40,893 --> 01:28:43,693
Speaker 4: of the national ranks, and in my view, their leader,

1679
01:28:44,093 --> 01:28:46,893
Speaker 4: who has been an utter disappointment as the leader of

1680
01:28:46,893 --> 01:28:47,693
Speaker 4: this great nation.

1681
01:28:48,733 --> 01:28:52,053
Speaker 2: I wouldn't get carried away about the great nation at

1682
01:28:52,053 --> 01:28:54,773
Speaker 2: the moment. It's small to be a great nation.

1683
01:28:54,893 --> 01:28:58,573
Speaker 4: I think I'm involved in the grocery industry, says Alistair.

1684
01:28:58,693 --> 01:29:01,533
Speaker 4: And something has to be done on shoplifting, which is

1685
01:29:01,773 --> 01:29:05,133
Speaker 4: just an epidemic at the moment. Some stores are having

1686
01:29:05,213 --> 01:29:07,533
Speaker 4: theft multiple times a day, and at the end of it,

1687
01:29:07,613 --> 01:29:10,653
Speaker 4: we the honest shopper pays for it all. I remember

1688
01:29:10,693 --> 01:29:12,893
Speaker 4: a few years ago the number was a million dollars

1689
01:29:12,933 --> 01:29:15,493
Speaker 4: a day lost. I hate to think what it is

1690
01:29:15,533 --> 01:29:18,013
Speaker 4: now with all the weakness on crime of our government.

1691
01:29:18,693 --> 01:29:22,653
Speaker 4: What really worries me labor Greens that will get into

1692
01:29:22,733 --> 01:29:25,693
Speaker 4: power the next election. Then we will see our nation

1693
01:29:25,853 --> 01:29:29,933
Speaker 4: disintegrate with more debt. I voted for New Zealand first

1694
01:29:29,973 --> 01:29:32,613
Speaker 4: and agree with most of their policies, apart from Winston

1695
01:29:32,693 --> 01:29:35,693
Speaker 4: talking about a two state solution which will never happen.

1696
01:29:36,693 --> 01:29:39,213
Speaker 4: I do like what President Trump has to stay on

1697
01:29:39,293 --> 01:29:41,773
Speaker 4: that matter, and I'm so happy he won the election.

1698
01:29:42,253 --> 01:29:44,413
Speaker 4: People who don't like him, in my opinion, don't know

1699
01:29:44,493 --> 01:29:46,733
Speaker 4: that man or what he has done for people over

1700
01:29:46,773 --> 01:29:50,253
Speaker 4: the years. I've just ordered The Builders Stone by Melanie

1701
01:29:50,293 --> 01:29:54,213
Speaker 4: Phillips herd her on Outsiders Today. Very good, he says.

1702
01:29:54,533 --> 01:29:56,613
Speaker 4: He says, keep up the good work and not long

1703
01:29:56,693 --> 01:29:59,173
Speaker 4: to podcast three hundred alistair.

1704
01:29:59,173 --> 01:30:02,053
Speaker 2: Apart from my little bit of nitpicking, it was an excellent,

1705
01:30:02,453 --> 01:30:06,493
Speaker 2: excellent piece of correspondent and thought. Thank you from Chuck.

1706
01:30:06,813 --> 01:30:08,973
Speaker 2: Thought you might be interested in this if you have

1707
01:30:09,133 --> 01:30:14,093
Speaker 2: not seen it already. Climate the movie this shows there

1708
01:30:14,133 --> 01:30:18,053
Speaker 2: are many climate scientists who do not support climate change hysteria.

1709
01:30:18,373 --> 01:30:21,493
Speaker 2: They may have different views as to whether COTWO affects

1710
01:30:21,533 --> 01:30:25,213
Speaker 2: the climate at all, or say the science is unsettled,

1711
01:30:25,253 --> 01:30:29,453
Speaker 2: like doctor Stephen Coonan, even if COTWO warms the planet

1712
01:30:29,893 --> 01:30:33,613
Speaker 2: a little, is that harmful? More people die from extreme

1713
01:30:33,653 --> 01:30:36,773
Speaker 2: cold than extreme heat. I note you said the government

1714
01:30:36,813 --> 01:30:40,973
Speaker 2: supports Simon Watt's view on climate change. You just interviewed

1715
01:30:40,973 --> 01:30:44,413
Speaker 2: Shane Jones. It appears he does buy into this nonsense.

1716
01:30:44,853 --> 01:30:48,413
Speaker 2: The same could be said about David Seymour. I would

1717
01:30:48,413 --> 01:30:51,093
Speaker 2: bet there are a few National MPs who would not

1718
01:30:51,133 --> 01:30:55,093
Speaker 2: support Watts. Remember Maureen Pew, Yeah, but you remember the

1719
01:30:55,133 --> 01:30:57,813
Speaker 2: beating she took. I just hope that many more people

1720
01:30:57,893 --> 01:31:01,053
Speaker 2: vote for ACT or New Zealand First, so that Luxon

1721
01:31:01,253 --> 01:31:04,253
Speaker 2: is not able to dictate climate policy that will cost

1722
01:31:04,293 --> 01:31:09,973
Speaker 2: New Zealand billions that we cannot afford. Somebody said, somebody

1723
01:31:10,013 --> 01:31:13,533
Speaker 2: said recently, no one's ever heard of Simon Watts. I

1724
01:31:13,573 --> 01:31:14,373
Speaker 2: think they need to.

1725
01:31:14,973 --> 01:31:18,213
Speaker 5: Layton Judath says, it's wonderful to have you back. Laighton.

1726
01:31:18,933 --> 01:31:22,173
Speaker 4: So enjoyed listening to the lovable rogue Shane Jones. The

1727
01:31:22,213 --> 01:31:25,293
Speaker 4: country needs more of his common sense and straight thinking.

1728
01:31:25,733 --> 01:31:29,133
Speaker 4: I look forward to more of your wonderful interviews with intellectuals.

1729
01:31:29,173 --> 01:31:31,653
Speaker 4: We don't have enough of them in this country. I

1730
01:31:31,773 --> 01:31:34,213
Speaker 4: have high hopes that twenty twenty five will be the

1731
01:31:34,293 --> 01:31:37,093
Speaker 4: dawning of growth and prosperity after what has been an

1732
01:31:37,133 --> 01:31:38,533
Speaker 4: austere a few years.

1733
01:31:39,253 --> 01:31:42,173
Speaker 5: Cheers, says Judith, and keep up the excellent.

1734
01:31:41,813 --> 01:31:46,093
Speaker 2: Work Judith appreciated very much. This week's podcast with Shane

1735
01:31:46,173 --> 01:31:49,133
Speaker 2: Jones was so entertaining, if only the government would take

1736
01:31:49,213 --> 01:31:52,693
Speaker 2: more notice of him. Below is the email I sent

1737
01:31:52,733 --> 01:31:56,773
Speaker 2: to Simon Watts for your interest from Leon. Dear Minister,

1738
01:31:57,093 --> 01:31:59,253
Speaker 2: I wish I could afford to purchase enough copies of

1739
01:31:59,333 --> 01:32:03,573
Speaker 2: A Clime of Climate actually by Andrew Hollis and two others,

1740
01:32:03,973 --> 01:32:06,613
Speaker 2: and send a copy to every MP in New Zealand.

1741
01:32:06,733 --> 01:32:08,813
Speaker 2: There are many facts included in this book which the

1742
01:32:08,853 --> 01:32:11,533
Speaker 2: general public are not aware of, or not just the

1743
01:32:11,613 --> 01:32:17,013
Speaker 2: general public. Leon. Seventy percent of all gas emissions are

1744
01:32:17,053 --> 01:32:20,613
Speaker 2: from volcanic activity. If all the ice melted, the sea

1745
01:32:20,693 --> 01:32:24,133
Speaker 2: level would rise fifteen millimeters that's two inches. We are

1746
01:32:24,173 --> 01:32:27,613
Speaker 2: shown melting ice from the Pacific Ocean side, only not

1747
01:32:27,693 --> 01:32:30,573
Speaker 2: the Atlantic side, where the ice is building up. We

1748
01:32:30,653 --> 01:32:34,933
Speaker 2: are not told that there is volcanic activity beneath the

1749
01:32:35,133 --> 01:32:42,333
Speaker 2: Antarctic shelf. New Zealand produces zero point one percent of

1750
01:32:42,413 --> 01:32:45,653
Speaker 2: the world's emissions that our government continues to lead the

1751
01:32:45,693 --> 01:32:48,733
Speaker 2: world with emission deduction at the cost of our primary

1752
01:32:48,773 --> 01:32:52,853
Speaker 2: industries and much of our table food in the not

1753
01:32:52,933 --> 01:32:55,813
Speaker 2: too distant future if we're not careful. All plant life

1754
01:32:55,853 --> 01:32:58,653
Speaker 2: is dependent upon the supply of carbon dioxide to remain

1755
01:32:58,733 --> 01:33:02,813
Speaker 2: healthy so that they can supply oxygen to humans and

1756
01:33:03,293 --> 01:33:07,013
Speaker 2: all air breathing species. Yet we're trying to reduce carbon

1757
01:33:07,053 --> 01:33:11,373
Speaker 2: dioxide from the U s atmosphere. Thankfully, President Trump is

1758
01:33:11,773 --> 01:33:15,453
Speaker 2: leading the way as he recognizes climate change theory as

1759
01:33:15,493 --> 01:33:19,093
Speaker 2: a hoax, and the USA is withdrawing from the Paris Accord,

1760
01:33:19,133 --> 01:33:22,053
Speaker 2: actually has already done it. Also, I understand that the

1761
01:33:22,093 --> 01:33:27,093
Speaker 2: Australian MP Peter Dutton has already indicated Australia will withdraw

1762
01:33:27,213 --> 01:33:31,013
Speaker 2: as well if they win the next election. When will

1763
01:33:31,013 --> 01:33:35,893
Speaker 2: your government wake up? Leon, Here's the answer that I'd

1764
01:33:35,933 --> 01:33:38,413
Speaker 2: give you. They won't wake up, and the reason is

1765
01:33:38,453 --> 01:33:41,693
Speaker 2: because they will not avail themselves of any rational thinking

1766
01:33:42,493 --> 01:33:45,013
Speaker 2: because they don't seek it out. They say that's the

1767
01:33:45,053 --> 01:33:48,213
Speaker 2: way it is. That's what Luxelon has said too. Anybody

1768
01:33:48,213 --> 01:33:51,293
Speaker 2: something along the lines. In fact, I'll include the quote

1769
01:33:51,373 --> 01:33:53,253
Speaker 2: in the podcast elsewhere because I haven't got it here.

1770
01:33:53,693 --> 01:33:57,893
Speaker 2: I know what I would say to him anymore, Layton, worry.

1771
01:33:57,653 --> 01:34:01,253
Speaker 4: Before one more from me, David says, I was reading

1772
01:34:01,293 --> 01:34:04,453
Speaker 4: the news this week about the half year economic fiscal update,

1773
01:34:05,093 --> 01:34:08,813
Speaker 4: whereby the government kept a four billion dollar ACC for

1774
01:34:08,853 --> 01:34:12,253
Speaker 4: the year off the books. I was intrigued by that figure,

1775
01:34:12,293 --> 01:34:15,493
Speaker 4: so probed around the ACC website and found the linked

1776
01:34:15,493 --> 01:34:18,813
Speaker 4: report for the year ending thirty June twenty twenty four,

1777
01:34:18,893 --> 01:34:22,413
Speaker 4: published a month ago. Now, I know nothing about audits,

1778
01:34:22,453 --> 01:34:24,893
Speaker 4: but some of those numbers are disturbing. If the idea

1779
01:34:25,013 --> 01:34:27,973
Speaker 4: is to keep the entity above water over the coming years.

1780
01:34:28,653 --> 01:34:31,693
Speaker 4: It mentions that ACC is liable to lose two billion

1781
01:34:31,733 --> 01:34:35,133
Speaker 4: dollars a year over the next few years. It seems

1782
01:34:35,133 --> 01:34:39,653
Speaker 4: that so called sensitive claims and David Scott's sexual abuse

1783
01:34:39,773 --> 01:34:42,493
Speaker 4: here in brackets, are now and will be in the

1784
01:34:42,533 --> 01:34:46,333
Speaker 4: future a major factor in contributing to the deficit. Far

1785
01:34:46,413 --> 01:34:49,173
Speaker 4: be it for me to downplay these sensitive claims. But

1786
01:34:49,213 --> 01:34:52,333
Speaker 4: I'm flummoxed by the table shown on page forty five.

1787
01:34:52,373 --> 01:34:56,093
Speaker 4: And he does send you a copy latent that states

1788
01:34:56,133 --> 01:34:59,333
Speaker 4: the average cost of each sensitive case equates to one

1789
01:34:59,413 --> 01:35:03,693
Speaker 4: hundred and fourteen million dollars. In view of the governments

1790
01:35:03,733 --> 01:35:05,813
Speaker 4: struggling to balance the books. I wondered if there was

1791
01:35:05,853 --> 01:35:09,733
Speaker 4: an appetite to scrap ACC and let Vivid Insurance take

1792
01:35:09,813 --> 01:35:12,853
Speaker 4: up the slack. After all, New Zealand is the only

1793
01:35:12,893 --> 01:35:14,853
Speaker 4: country in the world that has gone down this no

1794
01:35:14,973 --> 01:35:18,813
Speaker 4: blame policy. It would appear that ACC has something like

1795
01:35:18,933 --> 01:35:23,653
Speaker 4: fifty seven billion dollars in investment assets that the government

1796
01:35:23,693 --> 01:35:26,573
Speaker 4: could use to retire debt if the entity was sold

1797
01:35:26,573 --> 01:35:29,893
Speaker 4: off to private antipart enterprise. And David goes on to

1798
01:35:30,053 --> 01:35:32,733
Speaker 4: continue to make his case. And it's a very good

1799
01:35:32,773 --> 01:35:35,333
Speaker 4: and lengthy email, but that's the guts of it.

1800
01:35:35,453 --> 01:35:35,813
Speaker 5: Basic.

1801
01:35:35,933 --> 01:35:40,453
Speaker 2: That's it right now. This one is this one is

1802
01:35:40,493 --> 01:35:42,493
Speaker 2: longer than yours, and I'm just wondering if I might

1803
01:35:42,573 --> 01:35:45,653
Speaker 2: leave it till the I will. I leave it to you.

1804
01:35:45,933 --> 01:35:48,573
Speaker 2: But it's to do with the gene Technology Bill, but

1805
01:35:48,693 --> 01:35:49,813
Speaker 2: covers more ground than that.

1806
01:35:50,933 --> 01:35:54,653
Speaker 5: Good that means I can get out of this oven. Well,

1807
01:35:54,693 --> 01:35:55,373
Speaker 5: I haven't.

1808
01:35:55,133 --> 01:35:59,053
Speaker 4: Actually too hot to carry on, all right, remind me

1809
01:35:59,093 --> 01:36:01,373
Speaker 4: of that in three months time. I'll just give you

1810
01:36:01,373 --> 01:36:04,253
Speaker 4: a quick one. Deborah says, thank you for interviewing Shane.

1811
01:36:04,253 --> 01:36:06,773
Speaker 4: That was really informative. I just wish we could have

1812
01:36:06,853 --> 01:36:10,373
Speaker 4: him as Prime Minister so much old fashioned common sense.

1813
01:36:10,453 --> 01:36:16,093
Speaker 4: Regards Debbie, and I'll give you this quick one from

1814
01:36:16,133 --> 01:36:18,973
Speaker 4: Paul High. Layton, Jeffrey Tucker and Rummish the Kerr have

1815
01:36:19,053 --> 01:36:23,693
Speaker 4: been doing superb work at Brownstone Institute. George Friedman has

1816
01:36:23,733 --> 01:36:26,613
Speaker 4: pointed at and still is pointing at the big cycles

1817
01:36:26,613 --> 01:36:30,453
Speaker 4: that bring this type of upheaval into reality. And he's

1818
01:36:30,493 --> 01:36:34,653
Speaker 4: talking about the narrative shift in modern history that George

1819
01:36:34,693 --> 01:36:38,733
Speaker 4: has written about. So says Paul. So we listeners to

1820
01:36:38,733 --> 01:36:42,133
Speaker 4: the radio and podcasts of Leyton Smith, we're aware of

1821
01:36:42,173 --> 01:36:45,373
Speaker 4: the storm. Thanks for all you do. It's priceless and

1822
01:36:45,413 --> 01:36:46,333
Speaker 4: that's me, Paul.

1823
01:36:46,373 --> 01:36:50,373
Speaker 2: That's very generous. Thank you, and you can go good.

1824
01:36:50,733 --> 01:36:54,133
Speaker 2: I don't want your melting I.

1825
01:36:53,013 --> 01:36:55,093
Speaker 5: I'm fanning myself with a four paper.

1826
01:36:55,653 --> 01:37:00,533
Speaker 2: See you next week, you will, okay. So from Mario,

1827
01:37:01,613 --> 01:37:03,813
Speaker 2: the quality that you show in every podcast is very

1828
01:37:03,853 --> 01:37:07,573
Speaker 2: much needed and appreciated in this information battle in New

1829
01:37:07,653 --> 01:37:12,253
Speaker 2: Zealand and triumph of reason over the current madness. I'm

1830
01:37:12,293 --> 01:37:15,013
Speaker 2: writing to you regarding the proposed bill that is now

1831
01:37:15,053 --> 01:37:18,333
Speaker 2: in Parliament past the first reading on the seventeenth of

1832
01:37:18,333 --> 01:37:22,333
Speaker 2: December twenty four, the Gene Technology Bill and then lists

1833
01:37:22,333 --> 01:37:25,813
Speaker 2: of one, two, three, four, hundred conduies a lot, so

1834
01:37:26,013 --> 01:37:29,973
Speaker 2: bear with us number one. With this horrendous bill, it

1835
01:37:30,053 --> 01:37:32,373
Speaker 2: seems that we have no right to know what we're eating.

1836
01:37:32,453 --> 01:37:36,053
Speaker 2: The people behind this bill, in their infinite wisdom, are

1837
01:37:36,173 --> 01:37:41,493
Speaker 2: not envisioning any labeling of genetically released products after so

1838
01:37:41,573 --> 01:37:45,773
Speaker 2: many years of caution, as advised initially by in two

1839
01:37:45,813 --> 01:37:48,293
Speaker 2: thousand and one by the Royal Commission, we are facing

1840
01:37:48,373 --> 01:37:52,933
Speaker 2: a potential deregulation that will inevitably change New Zealand forever.

1841
01:37:53,453 --> 01:37:57,493
Speaker 2: Since there are no safeguards contrary to the advice of

1842
01:37:57,573 --> 01:38:00,973
Speaker 2: the Royal Commission in two thousand and one, the impact

1843
01:38:00,973 --> 01:38:04,173
Speaker 2: of this bill can be very devastating for New Zealand agriculture.

1844
01:38:04,613 --> 01:38:09,533
Speaker 2: Primarily affected will be organic food industry. All farmers will

1845
01:38:09,573 --> 01:38:13,293
Speaker 2: be in danger of losing their ge free status and

1846
01:38:13,453 --> 01:38:17,013
Speaker 2: the exporters will be hit by the significant downturn in

1847
01:38:17,093 --> 01:38:20,413
Speaker 2: sales to their overseas partners. It just seems that the

1848
01:38:20,453 --> 01:38:25,493
Speaker 2: Gene Technology Bill is accommodating the biotech industry and shows

1849
01:38:25,533 --> 01:38:29,173
Speaker 2: total disregard for a large number of farmers, organic farmers

1850
01:38:29,813 --> 01:38:33,213
Speaker 2: and wider public who would not like to have ge

1851
01:38:33,213 --> 01:38:38,653
Speaker 2: crops or ge contaminated crops. Secondly, economic losses. According to

1852
01:38:39,133 --> 01:38:42,933
Speaker 2: the New Zealand Institute of Economic Research report, there would

1853
01:38:43,013 --> 01:38:48,293
Speaker 2: be ten to twenty billion dollars drop in the export

1854
01:38:48,333 --> 01:38:53,373
Speaker 2: demand across the whole agricultural export sector. Number three sovereignty sold,

1855
01:38:54,413 --> 01:38:58,373
Speaker 2: Foreign regulators and trade deals decide what is safe for US.

1856
01:38:59,133 --> 01:39:02,933
Speaker 2: Number four environmental harm. Once the ge free image is lost,

1857
01:39:02,973 --> 01:39:06,293
Speaker 2: it'll be impossible to restore that image since the ge

1858
01:39:06,413 --> 01:39:10,013
Speaker 2: contamination is impossible to recall anyway. This is just a

1859
01:39:10,093 --> 01:39:12,693
Speaker 2: short and simple introduction to a possible harm that New

1860
01:39:12,773 --> 01:39:16,453
Speaker 2: Zealand is facing. I didn't go further than agriculture, but

1861
01:39:16,613 --> 01:39:20,653
Speaker 2: other areas adversely impacted would be tourism, no doubt, because

1862
01:39:20,813 --> 01:39:24,813
Speaker 2: once New Zealand's clean and green image is tarnished, there

1863
01:39:24,813 --> 01:39:28,613
Speaker 2: will be negative consequences in tourism as well. You already

1864
01:39:28,653 --> 01:39:32,893
Speaker 2: had Guy Hatchett in your interviews, and I think he

1865
01:39:32,933 --> 01:39:35,253
Speaker 2: would be an excellent choice on the subject of the

1866
01:39:35,293 --> 01:39:40,493
Speaker 2: gene technology bill. Also, Professor Jack Heinemann from the University

1867
01:39:40,533 --> 01:39:44,053
Speaker 2: of Canterbury, in his submission to the Health select Committee

1868
01:39:44,053 --> 01:39:47,573
Speaker 2: explains why the proposed bill is not up to scratch,

1869
01:39:47,893 --> 01:39:51,053
Speaker 2: and yes, perhaps you could have him on your podcast too.

1870
01:39:51,213 --> 01:39:55,933
Speaker 2: Oway en Z's commissioned n z Eier economic report that

1871
01:39:56,093 --> 01:40:00,053
Speaker 2: clearly highlights the economic risks to the country and our

1872
01:40:00,093 --> 01:40:03,453
Speaker 2: Ministry of Foreign Affairs MPAC agrees that it is rushed,

1873
01:40:03,613 --> 01:40:07,453
Speaker 2: poorly thought through and has very real negative trade implications.

1874
01:40:08,333 --> 01:40:10,493
Speaker 2: I would like to express, Mario concludes. I would like

1875
01:40:10,533 --> 01:40:15,493
Speaker 2: to express my thanks to Linda Grammer from get free

1876
01:40:15,533 --> 01:40:20,413
Speaker 2: dot org dot NZ for vital information and links. Now, Mario,

1877
01:40:20,613 --> 01:40:23,173
Speaker 2: I didn't know who Jack Heineman was, so I ran

1878
01:40:23,213 --> 01:40:25,893
Speaker 2: a check and there's quite a bit of detail. So

1879
01:40:26,013 --> 01:40:28,213
Speaker 2: let me let me just touch on this because it

1880
01:40:28,253 --> 01:40:32,733
Speaker 2: will be included somewhere somewhere else. I suspect, let's cut

1881
01:40:32,773 --> 01:40:36,213
Speaker 2: the crap on gene technology. Society should be asking itself

1882
01:40:36,213 --> 01:40:38,853
Speaker 2: why it needs to trade the security of its regulations

1883
01:40:38,853 --> 01:40:43,413
Speaker 2: for unsecured promises from the visions of genetic engineers, argues

1884
01:40:43,853 --> 01:40:48,133
Speaker 2: molecular biologists to Jack Heineman. The government has proposed to

1885
01:40:48,173 --> 01:40:51,373
Speaker 2: reset and to remove some regulations on making and releasing

1886
01:40:51,373 --> 01:40:56,613
Speaker 2: genetically modified organisms GMOs. Is it a new conversation based

1887
01:40:56,653 --> 01:41:00,653
Speaker 2: on a new risk equation or an ultimatum? Now, initially

1888
01:41:00,733 --> 01:41:02,333
Speaker 2: I had another two and a half or was a

1889
01:41:02,333 --> 01:41:04,373
Speaker 2: three and a half page. It doesn't matter. It was

1890
01:41:04,813 --> 01:41:07,933
Speaker 2: getting very complicated, and it's the sort of thing you

1891
01:41:07,973 --> 01:41:10,333
Speaker 2: need to say in print in front of you unless

1892
01:41:10,333 --> 01:41:13,333
Speaker 2: you are a medical genius. Of course, see the print

1893
01:41:13,333 --> 01:41:14,813
Speaker 2: in front of you, and we able to go back

1894
01:41:14,853 --> 01:41:18,213
Speaker 2: on and reread it so that you can grasp it appropriately.

1895
01:41:18,653 --> 01:41:20,973
Speaker 2: But I can tell you where you can find it

1896
01:41:21,013 --> 01:41:24,653
Speaker 2: if you want to want further. It is from the

1897
01:41:24,693 --> 01:41:28,253
Speaker 2: Spinoff was published on August twenty nine last year, August

1898
01:41:28,253 --> 01:41:31,693
Speaker 2: twenty nine, twenty twenty four, and it's by Jack Heinemann

1899
01:41:32,333 --> 01:41:36,573
Speaker 2: h EI n em A double N and it's entitled

1900
01:41:37,213 --> 01:41:59,173
Speaker 2: Let's cut the crap on gene technology. Now. It wasn't

1901
01:41:59,173 --> 01:42:03,133
Speaker 2: my intention to include anything major on climate matters in

1902
01:42:03,213 --> 01:42:05,573
Speaker 2: two seven to one. But on account of the fact

1903
01:42:05,573 --> 01:42:08,653
Speaker 2: that this has just arrived in my inbox as I

1904
01:42:08,693 --> 01:42:11,373
Speaker 2: was preparing to send it send it off for production,

1905
01:42:11,813 --> 01:42:16,213
Speaker 2: let me let me adopt this for today. The atrocities

1906
01:42:16,253 --> 01:42:19,573
Speaker 2: in current government policies are nowhere more evident than in

1907
01:42:19,653 --> 01:42:23,973
Speaker 2: the area of energy policy. The overarching policy atrocity is

1908
01:42:24,013 --> 01:42:27,013
Speaker 2: to be observed in any and all of the measures

1909
01:42:27,053 --> 01:42:31,653
Speaker 2: designed to reduce anthropogenic carbon dioxide emissions to net zero,

1910
01:42:32,653 --> 01:42:36,853
Speaker 2: a bizarre concept when natural emissions, for instance from volcanoes

1911
01:42:36,893 --> 01:42:41,933
Speaker 2: and oceans disgorging absorbed carbon dioxide in a currently warming climate,

1912
01:42:42,453 --> 01:42:47,453
Speaker 2: greatly exceed anthropogenic emissions, and of course cannot be abated.

1913
01:42:48,093 --> 01:42:51,133
Speaker 2: The policy vehicle to achieve net zero is to replace

1914
01:42:51,373 --> 01:42:56,613
Speaker 2: energy generated by fossil fuels with so called renewables. There

1915
01:42:56,653 --> 01:43:00,253
Speaker 2: is nothing, well, not much. There is nothing wrong with

1916
01:43:00,573 --> 01:43:05,333
Speaker 2: renewable energy in some applications solar cells, operating water pumps

1917
01:43:05,573 --> 01:43:09,493
Speaker 2: and the like in remote locations, for instance. But nobody

1918
01:43:09,653 --> 01:43:13,493
Speaker 2: hailing from local institutions and businesses that have the government's ear,

1919
01:43:13,813 --> 01:43:17,533
Speaker 2: nor the international associations to which they pander, seem to

1920
01:43:17,613 --> 01:43:22,413
Speaker 2: have told the government that electricity costs increase logarithmically with

1921
01:43:22,733 --> 01:43:28,093
Speaker 2: increasing percentage of renewables in baseload supply. This is because

1922
01:43:28,293 --> 01:43:34,773
Speaker 2: large scale renewables incur massive costs avoided by controversial fossil fuel, nuclear,

1923
01:43:34,813 --> 01:43:40,053
Speaker 2: TiO energy sources, including but not limited to the cost

1924
01:43:40,253 --> 01:43:44,333
Speaker 2: of very large tracts of land. Now I shall put

1925
01:43:44,333 --> 01:43:48,333
Speaker 2: the rest of it aside, and we shall assume consumption

1926
01:43:48,453 --> 01:43:51,893
Speaker 2: of it, very likely next week. But there is one

1927
01:43:52,013 --> 01:43:56,853
Speaker 2: more headline that I think deserves quoting. It also is

1928
01:43:56,853 --> 01:44:01,173
Speaker 2: from an Australian Publication, as was the previous outtake from

1929
01:44:01,173 --> 01:44:07,293
Speaker 2: The Australian yesterday from Judith Sloan, Government's pride in carbon

1930
01:44:07,413 --> 01:44:11,773
Speaker 2: tax is proof it's out of its depth. Government's pride

1931
01:44:11,933 --> 01:44:15,773
Speaker 2: in carbon tax is proof it's out of its depth.

1932
01:44:17,093 --> 01:44:19,533
Speaker 2: You don't suppose that's applicable that in this country? Also?

1933
01:44:19,613 --> 01:44:23,293
Speaker 2: Do you? It most certainly is and that will take

1934
01:44:23,333 --> 01:44:26,573
Speaker 2: us out for podcasts two hundred and seventy one. If

1935
01:44:26,613 --> 01:44:28,693
Speaker 2: you would like to write to us then please do

1936
01:44:28,973 --> 01:44:31,853
Speaker 2: latent at NEWSTALKSB dot co dot nz or you can

1937
01:44:31,853 --> 01:44:34,453
Speaker 2: address Carolyn if you want, c O. L y n

1938
01:44:34,573 --> 01:44:39,253
Speaker 2: at NEWSTALKSB dot co dot nz. Love to hear your

1939
01:44:39,253 --> 01:44:43,933
Speaker 2: opinions for some reason, especially today and today's discussion. So

1940
01:44:44,133 --> 01:44:47,293
Speaker 2: we shall return within the week with podcasts number two

1941
01:44:47,373 --> 01:44:51,453
Speaker 2: hundred and seventy two. So there is only one thing

1942
01:44:51,573 --> 01:44:54,733
Speaker 2: left to say, thank you for listening, and we'll talk soon.

1943
01:45:02,613 --> 01:45:06,813
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from Newstalks EDB. Listen live on

1944
01:45:06,933 --> 01:45:09,893
Speaker 1: air or online and keep our shows with you wherever

1945
01:45:09,973 --> 01:45:12,533
Speaker 1: you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio