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Speaker 1: Brook Van Valden wants to change up regulation around scaffolding,

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Speaker 1: but health and safety experts say relaxed scaffolding rules could

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Speaker 1: have cost us up to seventy lives in the past

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Speaker 1: five years. Chris Alderson is chief executive of Construction, Health

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Speaker 1: and Safety New Zealand's with me this morning. Hey Chris, Hey,

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Speaker 1: how are you good? Thank you? What's the rule when

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Speaker 1: do I need to put scaffolding up? If i'm would

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Speaker 1: it ever happen on a single story house?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, there was regulations or guidance that came in

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Speaker 2: around about twenty twelve, which I guess was the regulatory

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Speaker 2: shift we saw back then that looked at scaffolding on

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Speaker 2: single story houses. Now, you know, under our Health and

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Speaker 2: Safety Work Act, you know, judges take guidance into account

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Speaker 2: when they're looking at the test for reasonable practicability. So

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Speaker 2: it kind of like shits the industry on that path

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Speaker 2: from then. And look, there was a lot of questioning

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Speaker 2: around that time. I remember it around you know, was

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Speaker 2: this overreach? Was this over kilder? We barely need it?

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Speaker 2: And there's been a few organizations that have had a

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Speaker 2: look at it since then. I mean, brands did a

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Speaker 2: report in twenty seventeen which looked at the effect of

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Speaker 2: scaffolding and single story residential houses, and so I found

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Speaker 2: that yes, you know, there was a cost increase, but

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Speaker 2: actually there's a major safety improvement as well. And it's

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Speaker 2: kind of we we've been since then, so we haven't

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Speaker 2: really looked at it since twenty seventeen. But you know,

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Speaker 2: if you go out and talk to good builders, smart builders,

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Speaker 2: what they will tell you is that, hey, there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of benefits other than the safety stuff around scaffolded

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Speaker 2: and these opportunities as well around productivity and things like that.

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Speaker 1: Right, So, because I think for a lot of people

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Speaker 1: that single story house example is one that's kind of obvious.

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Speaker 1: Do you really need it? I mean would I guess

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Speaker 1: the question is would people have died if we didn't

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Speaker 1: have it?

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Speaker 2: Yes, Look our history of so all around the world,

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Speaker 2: falling from height is the number one reason you get

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Speaker 2: killed at work, all around the world, don't matter where

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Speaker 2: you look, the US, Australia, the UK, except for one

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Speaker 2: little place, and that's New Zealand. In New Zealand, it's

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Speaker 2: not number one, which is interesting, right, And you know,

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Speaker 2: when we look at all the fatalities, we have had

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Speaker 2: a fulsome heighter around about six percent of them if

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Speaker 2: you go to the UK twenty eight percent. To get

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Speaker 2: to Australia round about fifteen percent on average. So you

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Speaker 2: kind of go, well, there's there's a difference. So what

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Speaker 2: we're trying to talk about here is trying to talk

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Speaker 2: about something that didn't happen rather than did happen. Right,

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Speaker 2: So all you can do is look at that sort

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Speaker 2: of counterfactual and say, well, what do we do in

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Speaker 2: New Zealand that made our made us a little bit

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Speaker 2: unusual and I think our you can really put our

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Speaker 2: buildings you can put yeah, well maybe maybe our people

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Speaker 2: are taller. I don't know, maybe gravity works differently in

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Speaker 2: the door to hear this there, maybe you've had on it.

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Speaker 1: So Chris, Chris, these changes the government says are out

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Speaker 1: for consultation. You know, everyone will get a chance to

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Speaker 1: have their say. You're saying, actually, it's working fine as

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Speaker 1: it is.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm saying that, Look, if you're going to make

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Speaker 2: a deregulatory move, then be really sure about your facts,

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Speaker 2: because you know, we've all got opinions. We're all entitled

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Speaker 2: to our opinions, but we're all not entitled to our

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Speaker 2: own facts, and you've got to really be quite careful,

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Speaker 2: particularly when you're walking into an obviously higher risk area

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Speaker 2: where it does actually affect people's lives in the most

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Speaker 2: serious way. You know, these aren't I mean of a

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Speaker 2: flippant before, but you know there are. You know, I've

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Speaker 2: had people on projects or a person on project that

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Speaker 2: I ran, you know, fifteen years ago, the type from height.

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Speaker 2: It's not something I'd wish on anybody.

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Speaker 1: Chris, Yeah, absolutely, I appreciate your time this morning, Chris.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. Chris Alderson, Chief Executive of Construction, Health and

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Speaker 1: Safety in New Zealand.

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