1 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: Yoda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is a summer special 2 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: of The Front Page, the NSID Herald's daily news podcast. 3 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,800 Speaker 1: While the Front Page is on summer break, we're taking 4 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: a look back at some of the biggest news stories 5 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: and top rated episodes from the podcast in twenty twenty four. 6 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: New episodes will return on January thirteenth. June twenty this 7 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: year marked thirty years since five members of the Bain 8 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: family in Dunedin were found dead in their family home. 9 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 1: The one survivor, David, would be convicted of murdering his 10 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: parents and his three siblings. He served thirteen years in 11 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: prison before the Privy Council quashed his convictions and he 12 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: was found not guilty on all charges at a retrial 13 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: in two thousand nine. For the anniversary in June, we 14 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: spoke to longtime Bane advocate Joe Krum for an exclusive 15 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: chat reflecting on his three decades linked to the case, 16 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 1: as well as exploring our obsession with the case with 17 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:22,679 Speaker 1: aut professor of pop culture doctor Lorna Piante Farnal. It's 18 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: been thirty years since the killings at Every Street. You're 19 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: a former All Black, a successful businessman, but also known 20 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: as longtime David Bain advocate. What first got you interested 21 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:34,279 Speaker 1: in this case? 22 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 2: I was reading the New Zealand Herald one morning early 23 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: in January of nineteen ninety six, and there was a 24 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 2: little article in the Herald was a picture of five 25 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 2: or six people in the Octagon and the Meeden the 26 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 2: Treshoor table selling jams and pickles to raise money, with 27 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 2: a sign on the front which said David Dane was innocent. 28 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 2: And the story said that one of the people was 29 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 2: an elderly woman who was David Bean's music teacher, and 30 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: the other ones were friend that is, from the university 31 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 2: and drama society belonged to. And the story just grabbed me. Actually, 32 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 2: I've been a close follower of the Arthur Allen Thomas case. 33 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,279 Speaker 2: Funnily enough, I had broken my leg and was implaster 34 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 2: sitting at home doing nothing in nineteen seventy when the 35 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,919 Speaker 2: crew murders happened, and that because I was stuck there 36 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 2: was nowhere to go for nothing to do. I sort 37 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 2: of read and listened to everything that happened. Anyway, what 38 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 2: struck me about this article It wasn't like his parents 39 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:37,119 Speaker 2: or family. These were people who were just friends who 40 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:39,799 Speaker 2: to go out in the street and do this. And 41 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 2: I had a visit with my lawyer on some other 42 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 2: business a few days later, and I said, Tom, do 43 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 2: you know who the lawyer for the David Daine was? 44 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 2: And he gave me his name and address or phone number, 45 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 2: and I contacted him and put my finger in the 46 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 2: water and there we go. Twenty years later, I was 47 00:02:57,440 --> 00:02:58,440 Speaker 2: still at it. Yeah. 48 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: Seen people say that they would never have been a 49 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: retrial without your support of Baine. Would you agree with that? 50 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 2: Oh? Well, I'd go with it. Not being boastful, but 51 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: just I think all the lawyers that I engaged over 52 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 2: the years would say exactly the same thing. Not only 53 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,359 Speaker 2: would they not have been a retrial, would David Bane 54 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 2: would still be in prison now. When they ordered the retrial, 55 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 2: Michael Reid, who was David Baine's QC, Michael Red QC, 56 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 2: he said, Joe, you have to come down there. We 57 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 2: can't do this without You're the one with all the 58 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 2: knowledge and everything else. I said, well, you know, I'm 59 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 2: not a lawyer. You don't need at the trial. And 60 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 2: he said, no, You've got to be there. So I 61 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 2: was there right through the whole thing, and I made 62 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 2: over the years. I made some very very important and 63 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 2: crucial decisions for the legal team. And I think it's 64 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 2: fair to say that David Bain, instead of being happily 65 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 2: married now two lovely children and the gorgeous wife, would 66 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 2: still be writing away in the prison. And it was 67 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 2: the will of the police and the very government officials. 68 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 2: That's what they would have liked to have happened. 69 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: Well, you were kind of like the face of the campaign, hey, 70 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: and you really took on that role. And to say 71 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: this case was divisive is an understatement. What was it 72 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: like heading the campaign for so long? What kind of 73 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: things did you experience? 74 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 2: Well, it's hard for anybody who wasn't close to me 75 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 2: over those years to understand is just how vicious the 76 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 2: assault on me personally was. I brought a different perspective 77 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 2: in the sense that you as a well known person, 78 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,480 Speaker 2: being a formal all black, and that made the police 79 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 2: and the Justice Department officials see me as more of 80 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: a threat, I suppose to the normal person who might 81 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 2: be fighting against an injustice. Right from the very beginning. 82 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 2: It was amazing when my name first became public as 83 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 2: being working for David the number of police cars that 84 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 2: would be driving past our house. We lived in the country, 85 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 2: myself and a life and three children. That stage I 86 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 2: separated from my wife soon after. One night, not long 87 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 2: after we'd separated, she'd been shopping in the evening. It 88 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 2: was in the winter time, and she went to get 89 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 2: in the car and two eyes approached her, and they 90 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 2: were both private investigators to follow me around and try 91 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 2: and dig up as much dirt on me as they could, 92 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 2: and they thought that the children wife might be a 93 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 2: great source of information for them. They sort of did 94 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,479 Speaker 2: all they could to persuade her to spill as much 95 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 2: dirt on me as what she could, but she didn't. 96 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 2: She rang me up and told me what happened. Then, 97 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 2: of course, after I wrote the first book, which really 98 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 2: is what started the major controversy, the police sued me 99 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 2: for defamation. And I think that I can say fairly 100 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 2: accurately that I'm the only person that the police have 101 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 2: ever sued the defamation in New Zealand's history. 102 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 3: Jo Karam, why are you doing this? 103 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: He is guilty as. 104 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:02,280 Speaker 4: Can't be wrong, and the government. 105 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 2: Of cries can't all be wrong. 106 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 5: Surely, I don't know how well informed you are, but 107 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 5: the jury did not hear all of the evidence. Much 108 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 5: of the evidence they did here was wrong. The detective 109 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 5: in fact who sued me admitted under oath during my 110 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 5: trial that his evidence on a most crucial matter was wrong. 111 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 5: The other detective be sued me under cross examination made 112 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 5: the statement that if he'd been asked, he would have 113 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 5: told the whole truth. 114 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: You've mentioned before it had been tough, and I liked 115 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:38,599 Speaker 1: this quote. You're sometimes represented as being a raving redneck 116 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: who had lost the plot, and it seems like you've 117 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: been on the receiving end, especially a lot of public 118 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: backlash over the years. What kind of toll has that 119 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: taken on you thirty years down the track. 120 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't say it's the toll lives with me now. 121 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,560 Speaker 2: I mean, if I look at the case now in retrospect, 122 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 2: I have a great personal satisfaction and the feeling of trial. 123 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 2: But as I said before David Dane, which will probably 124 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 2: be writing in jail instead of being happily married, it 125 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,039 Speaker 2: gives me a great deal of bribe and satisfaction that 126 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 2: my stick ability and or work I did and if 127 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 2: I put into it a result than that. 128 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:18,800 Speaker 1: You've said the campaign costs you millions over the years 129 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: were you surprised going in how much it actually cost 130 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: to challenge the legal system, because first cab off the 131 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:26,840 Speaker 1: rank was getting someone over to the Privy Council way 132 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: and you donated what like twelve grand. 133 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 2: The initial thing was with Michael Guest, David's original lawyer, 134 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 2: and I didn't think you'd get to the Privy Council 135 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 2: in London for twelve thousand dollars. I was recentably well 136 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 2: off at that time and the case he was bringing 137 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 2: seemed to be quite powerful to me. In fact, that's 138 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 2: when my association with the case just became public. What 139 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 2: I discovered on that visit and soon after was that 140 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 2: Michael Guests, David's original lawyer, did a terrible job, and 141 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 2: so one of the first major decisions I made was 142 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 2: to sack him, and I arranged for Colin Wisnoll CAC 143 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 2: and Dunedin to work with me to investigate whether or 144 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 2: not he thought there'd been a miscarriage of justice that 145 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 2: was challengeable through the proper channels, and that after working 146 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 2: with me for twelve months, he agreed that there was, 147 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 2: and we lodged the petition to the Governor General. 148 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: Would you do it all again? 149 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: I would definitely do it all again, and I wouldn't 150 00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 2: change I wouldn't be able to change anything, because if 151 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:33,079 Speaker 2: I didn't be as feisty and determined and out spoken 152 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 2: and voiced things publicly as I did, I'd be just 153 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 2: like the Watson case now, struggling on twenty three years later, 154 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 2: hoping for the best and expecting the worst. So the 155 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 2: only thing I did wrong was have a faith in 156 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 2: the powers that be that they would take my concerns seriously. 157 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 2: That they didn't, and so when they treated me the 158 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 2: way they did, I treated them the same way back. 159 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 1: Over the last fifteen years. How much of your time 160 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: is still spent protecting David and I guess his new 161 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: family now as well. 162 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:21,880 Speaker 2: David actually said to me after the two thousand and 163 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:24,079 Speaker 2: three decision of the Court of Appeal, and I was 164 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 2: sitting with him in prison. I think I might have 165 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 2: been shedding it through tears, and I was looking in 166 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 2: the eye and saying, I just can't believe this, and 167 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 2: they right have. I got this all wrong, David, and 168 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 2: you've been bullshitting me all along. And David looked at 169 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 2: me and said, Joe, you're doing tougher lag than me. 170 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 2: He said, I am innocent, and I'll never ever admit 171 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 2: enough fight on somehow that you need to get on 172 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 2: with your life glowing away. And as I said, I 173 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:48,320 Speaker 2: wrote a letter of the Court of Appeal and told 174 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:49,920 Speaker 2: them that they were wrong, and I go to the 175 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 2: Privy Council and that's what I did. But in terms 176 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 2: of protecting David, the biggest thing was since the retrial, 177 00:09:56,360 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 2: that is the biggest thing for me, was to get 178 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 2: him some compensation. And so after Binny's report was throwing 179 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 2: out in twenty twelve, I then had to fight on 180 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: for another four years to finally get him about a 181 00:10:12,600 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 2: million dollars in twenty and sixteen, which gave him the 182 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 2: opportunity of creating And he was married by then and 183 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 2: he had one child by then, which gave him his 184 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 2: wife at least the opportunity of creating a life for 185 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 2: themselves and some privacy. But since that time and David 186 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 2: and I agreed it well at his wife that it 187 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 2: was their life and they would live at how they 188 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,839 Speaker 2: wished to where they wished to, and to make decisions 189 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 2: for themselves. I offered that anytime they even needed to 190 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 2: meet a help them, I would, but that they would 191 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 2: basically get on with their life in their own way, 192 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:50,559 Speaker 2: which is what I've done. 193 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: And they're doing well. Do they manage to kind of 194 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: avoid being bothered? 195 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,040 Speaker 2: Well, they have done extremely well. I mean, this is 196 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 2: another thing about all the nonsense that's been written by 197 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 2: so many people. I must say that most of it 198 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 2: has come out of the christ Church Press, with Martin 199 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 2: Van Dyanam leading the charge. As you know, Van Dayna 200 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 2: wrote the story which New Zealand just went along with 201 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:15,280 Speaker 2: that naturally enough that David Dane had sort of scarped 202 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:17,599 Speaker 2: off to Australia with his wife and that's where he 203 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 2: was living. That was totally untrue. David never went to 204 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 2: Australia to live. He had one short holiday there on 205 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 2: the Gold Coast with his wife, but he never contemplated 206 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 2: living there and never went there at all, And eventually 207 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 2: they shifted to where they now live. His wife has 208 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,319 Speaker 2: a very very good job, is highly respected and they've 209 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 2: built a great life for themselves. They've got two children 210 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 2: who are doing exceptionally well and as as far as 211 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 2: they've got great support, need work in the community where 212 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 2: they are and whether or not what's happening now with 213 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 2: this anniversary and the scrutiny on things will change that. 214 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 2: I don't know, but I'm sure David will holding me 215 00:11:57,559 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 2: if anything does have. 216 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 1: And have you spoken to him recently, I mean just 217 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 1: checking in with him. I guess I'm given it thirty years. 218 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 2: We speak to each other regularly, not every day or 219 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 2: every week or anything, but sort of once a month 220 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 2: or two months. We've never got old and wag on 221 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 2: the phone and talk about how things are going. He 222 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 2: talks about his family and what he's doing for work 223 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 2: and so on. And I've talked to him recently about 224 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 2: thet I media scrutiny that's been going on, and he said, look, 225 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 2: we're living a happy life. We've got a good support 226 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 2: network around us, and I just wanted to sort of 227 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 2: just keep my head down and be tap with my 228 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 2: family and close friends. So that's what you're doing. 229 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: How are you feeling? 230 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 2: What was it like to hear that phrase not guilty 231 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 2: repeated five times today? 232 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 6: I was a huge release for me, to be honest, 233 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 6: I just in some respects it took a huge weights 234 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:53,559 Speaker 6: off my shoulders. But it's also shown me that I 235 00:12:53,679 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 6: love all these people, and this fantastic man here has 236 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 6: gone through and it's just it's all coming at once. 237 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: Do you think New Zealand needs to move on. 238 00:13:08,320 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 2: Well, I think what needs to happen this Black Hands 239 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 2: and Bain and thing is what it did. It had 240 00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:16,680 Speaker 2: an enormous effect. I mean it turns. I mean younger 241 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 2: people tend to listen to podcasts. I know that's changed now, 242 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 2: lots of people do. But all of the people who 243 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,520 Speaker 2: were too young to follow the case and know about 244 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 2: the case, there are only reference about the case is 245 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 2: not only the podcast. But then New Zealand n Air 246 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 2: granted five million dollars to Warner Brothers to do that 247 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 2: television three part doco drama on this thing. What I 248 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 2: think needs to happen and answer your question, somebody should 249 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: put out five million dollars to have an investigation into 250 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 2: what went wrong, who did what, when did they do 251 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 2: it and why and get some accountability. Not for the 252 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 2: purpose of vengeance on all the people who did do 253 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 2: things wrong, as I don't think David or me want 254 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,199 Speaker 2: to see any of them get locked up, even though 255 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 2: they deserve it, but to make sure or put things 256 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 2: in place to try to ensure that something like this 257 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 2: never happens again. 258 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: You're saying instead of giving money to the likes of 259 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: a three part docco. 260 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 2: Series which was a pointless It was pointless, a proved 261 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: and I think it added nothing to the story, and 262 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 2: in fact it wasn't even very didn't get very good ratings. 263 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 2: But that you know, it creates controversy and. 264 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: Unnecessary and I suppose retraumatizers as well. I mean, this 265 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: is probably a period of David's life that he doesn't 266 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 1: really want to reflect on too much. 267 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 2: Well exactly, but not only in I mean, I know 268 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 2: his extended family have ditched him and taken aside of 269 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 2: the police, but I don't think they want all the 270 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 2: stuff regurgitated over and over and over again, because you know, 271 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 2: as much as I think they were wrong in the 272 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 2: way they behaved, each tended family that is, and not 273 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 2: supporting David. However, of course, it was their brother and 274 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 2: sister and and nephews and cousins who also lost their 275 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 2: lives and say they've been through a great deal of 276 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 2: trauma as well. And the reurgitating of what happened is 277 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 2: no help to anybody. But what would be a help 278 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 2: would be to try to ensure that these practices are 279 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 2: well and truly in the past and put things in 280 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 2: place to make sure they don't happen again. 281 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,160 Speaker 1: Is it time for New Zealand to leave David and 282 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: his family alone? 283 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 2: Well, it would be much easier for them to leave 284 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 2: him alone if the facts of the case were properly 285 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 2: put on the table and his innocence was acknowledged instead 286 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 2: of trying to portray him, as we've talked about with 287 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 2: the various podcasts and so on, as a killer living 288 00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 2: amongst us. It's pretty obvious what happened, and the only 289 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 2: valuable thing that can be done for the case is 290 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,120 Speaker 2: to learn from the mistakes that were made by the police, 291 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,600 Speaker 2: by the Crown Law Office in Wellington, by the judges 292 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 2: at the Court of Appeal, and by politicians. He could 293 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 2: have all put a stop to this way back in 294 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety seven when I went and told them, I mean, 295 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 2: what happened in the retrial is exactly what I told 296 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 2: them would happen if there was a retrial and I 297 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 2: was proven right thirteen years later. You know, I'd never 298 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 2: had any experience in law or criminal cases, and if 299 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 2: I could see how clearly what the case was by myself, 300 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 2: then all these people could have seen it. If it 301 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 2: wasn't for their institutional bias which they brought to play 302 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 2: on the case. An answer your question, yes, leave it alone, 303 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 2: or if you're going to touch it, at least acknowledge 304 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 2: the shortcomings and all of the authorities. When I went 305 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 2: to see the police originally, it never would have been 306 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 2: all this controversy if they'd sat down with me and 307 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 2: discussed and worked out the way forward. I didn't want 308 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 2: to write books about the case. I didn't want to 309 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 2: have all this controversy and have David writing away prison 310 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 2: for thirty more years. But instead of that, their response 311 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 2: was to try and destroy all the evidence. The controversy 312 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 2: is at the feat of the authorities, not a David 313 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 2: to mine. 314 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Joe, David, Bain, Scott Watson, Grace Mulane, 315 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: Heavenly Creatures, the Crew Murders. Some cases have captured Kiwi's 316 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: imagination and focus over the years more than others, So 317 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,880 Speaker 1: why do we care about some cases rather than others? 318 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:36,960 Speaker 1: To discuss this further, we're joined now on the front 319 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: page by aut University's professor of Popular culture, doctor Lorna 320 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 1: Piatti Farnell. Lorna whether it's podcasts, articles, documentaries, TV, adaptations. 321 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: We all seem to love true crime, don't we What 322 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: drives that fascination? 323 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 7: Well, the fascination which true crime likely comes from many causes, 324 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 7: and there are probably many reasons as to why people 325 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:04,840 Speaker 7: enjoy true crime stories so much. 326 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:05,480 Speaker 4: Now. 327 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 7: Generally speaking, I would say that the interest in true 328 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 7: crime likely stems first of all from the curiosity the 329 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:16,440 Speaker 7: people have about these highly confronting stories. People want to 330 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 7: know more and find out the motivations of these killers. 331 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 7: Above all, the exploration of what we could not imagine 332 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 7: doing and the focus on what it's perceived as different, 333 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 7: deviant and simply just not fitting in our society. Now, 334 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 7: I think there is a desire to try and discover 335 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 7: some form of blueprint over what caused the murderers to 336 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:43,239 Speaker 7: do what they did, and perhaps even to avoid it 337 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 7: happening again in the future. Unfortunately, no matter how many 338 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 7: true crime stories we might watch, this is not simply 339 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 7: a journey of causality and correlation that applies to every 340 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 7: single case, So it doesn't quite work like that, but 341 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 7: still we try and true crime stories for the fans 342 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 7: they will know this are often very very visceral and 343 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 7: get into very gory details, so there's probably a certain strange, 344 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 7: foreuristic side to the fascination, and of course true crime 345 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 7: is based generally speaking on real historical events it actually happened, 346 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 7: So there is also a layer of unspoken mixture of 347 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 7: fear and excitement that goes with the experience as well the. 348 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 4: Thrill of delving into the crime and all his details. 349 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 1: Shall we say, yeah, And looking at David Baine as 350 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 1: an example, it's been thirty years and he's gone through 351 00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 1: two trials now, but we can't seem to leave it alone. 352 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: What do you think motivates people to keep talking about Bain? 353 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 2: Now? 354 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 7: What a case like that of Bain and several others 355 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 7: in a similar category, there is I think, in equal 356 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 7: parts fascination and repulsion over the fact that the perpetrators 357 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 7: of the crime of the murders did not kill strangers, 358 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:57,960 Speaker 7: as it is often the case with a lot of 359 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 7: true crime stories that we see, but they killed members 360 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 7: of their family, or allegedly killed members of their family 361 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 7: as the trial went. Now the people that they should 362 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 7: have loved the most and cherished the most and cared about, 363 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 7: and that truly has a certain, should we say, unimaginable 364 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 7: quality to it. Truly is the call of the unthinkable, 365 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:23,760 Speaker 7: and of course murder is thankfully unthinkable from the majority 366 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 7: of people. But when we encounter cases when it does 367 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 7: happen within family circles, there is a challenge to our 368 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 7: sense of safety, the pushing of boundaries of our comfort zone, 369 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 7: which is likely why these particular cases get so much attention. 370 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 7: And also we should not underestimate the idea that someone 371 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,880 Speaker 7: may have actually been wrongfully convicted of a crime and 372 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 7: spent time in prison, as that's certainly something that resonates 373 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 7: with people. 374 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, we were talking about Scott Watson on the podcast 375 00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:56,400 Speaker 1: the other week and one of our guests noted how 376 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: the name has been Smart and Olivia Hope. The fact 377 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: that we both young, white, blonde made that case stand 378 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: out more. Perhaps, you know. 379 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 3: A couple of really attractive kids doing what a lot 380 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,480 Speaker 3: of kids of that age did, which is their first 381 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 3: holidays with their friends, not their family, not to mention 382 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 3: their surnames, Hope and Smart. You know, they were the 383 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 3: perfect sort of white middle class kids, beautiful, intelligent, their 384 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 3: whole lives ahead of them. And I think that's what 385 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 3: capitivated the country who because I think if it was 386 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 3: you know, as some different people in a small town, 387 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 3: for example, there wouldn't have been such a huge kind 388 00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 3: of interest. 389 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,119 Speaker 1: Does race and class play into which cases garner our 390 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 1: attention over others? Do you think? 391 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 4: I see? 392 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,719 Speaker 7: Unfortunately, if we look at all the research that has 393 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 7: been conducted in this particular area and on this particular 394 00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 7: topic in several fields, from criminal psychology to gender and 395 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 7: race studies to cultural and media studies, there is definitely 396 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 7: for evidence to suggest that, unfortunately, race, gender, and class 397 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 7: do play central parts in victim and perpetrator definition, in 398 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 7: the creation of sympathy or lack of sympathy, and the 399 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 7: attention that the case may actually get in the news. 400 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 7: There is a lot of stereotyping that happens, and most 401 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 7: often than not, this can reflect negatively on the victims 402 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 7: or on the perpetrator. It is regrettable and it is 403 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 7: essential that we maintain a continuous awareness of this, especially 404 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 7: when presented with criminal acts in both real life and 405 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 7: fictionalized accounts. 406 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's also seventy years since the Polling Parker and 407 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: Juliet Home murders in what's known as the Heavenly Creature's case, 408 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 1: So this isn't really a modern phenomenon, is it, well. 409 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 7: I'm assuming you mean the news and cultural hype of 410 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 7: a murder rather than wealth, as the latter has been around. 411 00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 4: I think for as long as humans have been around. 412 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 7: The narrative, shall we say, constructions of a murder, the 413 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 7: storytelling of a murder, and what part do news outlets 414 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 7: and media play in Generally, that is not. 415 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 4: A contemporary occurrence. 416 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 7: Certainly from the late nineteenth entry onwards with you know, 417 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 7: famous cases like that of Jack the Ripper, there has 418 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 7: been a fascination with the idea of crime that has 419 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 7: been fueled by storytelling, and this has been transported from 420 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 7: the news or other forms of media such as film 421 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,399 Speaker 7: and television and more recently you know podcasts and the 422 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:38,320 Speaker 7: like very popular with listeners. And then sensationalization of murder 423 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 7: has really been occurring ever since news and later media 424 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 7: audiences have been a thing. 425 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 4: So absolutely, it's not really a new phenomenon. 426 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 1: How much does news media drive interest in these cases 427 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: and should there be I guess more consideration from journalists 428 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: in what cases they spotlight? 429 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:59,639 Speaker 7: I suppose yes, that is a good question, and news 430 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 7: media have historically been central to drawing public attention to 431 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 7: particular cases. Especially in building, you know, speculation and fascination 432 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 7: around particular crimes, especially murders. 433 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:17,240 Speaker 4: Now the serial killer phenomenon as it's often called, more 434 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 4: than the murder themselves, and then the public attention around 435 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 4: it has been intrinsically connected with media attention. Sometimes historical 436 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 4: facts and popular views can merge, they can blend and 437 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 4: merge and become one, and some ideas of facts become 438 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 4: very cemented into people's minds and difficult to shake, whether 439 00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 4: they actually happen or not. So it is always important 440 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 4: to maintain vigilance over what information is shared and circulated 441 00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 4: about these cases and in our contemporary era, not only 442 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 4: in official media outlets, but also on user generated content platforms, 443 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 4: and there are certainly quite a lot of those arounds 444 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 4: of vigilance, definitely the key. 445 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Lorna. That's it for this episode 446 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 1: of The Front Page. You can read more about today's 447 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: stories and extensive news coverage at enzeed Herald dot co 448 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,880 Speaker 1: dot z. The Front Page is produced by Ethan Siles 449 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:24,760 Speaker 1: with sound engineer Patti Fox. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to 450 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 1: the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your 451 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: podcasts and Tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.