1 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: Kilda. 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. It's been 4 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 2: revealed that Artie Savia's future with the All Blacks once 5 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 2: hung in the balance. His push to quit was amid 6 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 2: whispers of player discontent and coaching fractures, exposing deep cracks 7 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 2: in the team's foundations. Players apparently openly questioned coaching discipline 8 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 2: and its overall direction. Today on the Front Page ends 9 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 2: at Herald, Rugby analyst Gregor Paul joins us to break 10 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 2: down the inside story and the deeper turmoil inside the 11 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 2: All Blacks. So, Gregor, what convinced you that Artie Savia 12 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,200 Speaker 2: was genuinely ready to walk away from his what one 13 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: million dollar plus contract? 14 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 3: Well, I think the fact that he said that he 15 00:01:02,560 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 3: was without giving you a physicious answer. I mean, I 16 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 3: don't think there's ambiguity in terms of the consistency of 17 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 3: my discovery. It's there all the way through. Everyone that 18 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 3: he spoke to is really clear about what he said, 19 00:01:22,319 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 3: which is that he felt that he didn't or couldn't 20 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 3: or wouldn't continue or he didn't want to continue with 21 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 3: the final two years of his contract and the reasons 22 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 3: for him wanting to. 23 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 1: Do that were. He clearly felt that. 24 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 3: Through the choices that he'd made must be said, the 25 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 3: career choices that he'd made following the twenty twenty three 26 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 3: World Cap, that they'd taken him away from his home 27 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 3: for too long. He hadn't been living in the family 28 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 3: home for various reasons because he's been in Japan. 29 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: Then he moved up to Auckland. 30 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 3: His kids were at an age where I think one 31 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 3: of them had just started school, maybe two of them, 32 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 3: which was why they chose not to not for the 33 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 3: family not to go with him, so his wife and 34 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 3: three children stayed in Wellington. 35 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: When he's on earning money. 36 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 3: As a rugby player and that kind of nomadic lifestyle. 37 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 3: If you like the playing for so long without a 38 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 3: break his age, probably you know. I think everyone gets 39 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 3: to a certain age in rugby where their body starts to 40 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 3: not recover the way they wanted to. All of these 41 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 3: things happened, and in November, on that end of the 42 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 3: year tour with the All Blacks, he was really clear 43 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 3: with first chairman David Kirk, then coach Scott Robertson and 44 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 3: CEO Mark Robinson that he wanted to try and talk 45 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 3: to them about not fulfilling the final two years of 46 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 3: his contract. 47 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 2: Do you reckon? There's a wider discussion here about players 48 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,679 Speaker 2: or homegrown players then going across to say the likes 49 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 2: of Japan, or some of them go to Paris and 50 00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 2: things like that for the money, about choosing that, I 51 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:02,240 Speaker 2: suppose over a long career with the Old Blacks. 52 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: I think the idea here is that. 53 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 3: There is what we call the sabbatical clause that gets 54 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 3: offered up to players once they've reached or won seventy 55 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 3: test caps and they resign a long term contract with 56 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 3: New Zealand, a long term we mean three years plus. 57 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 3: Then they have the right to negotiate. I think it's 58 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 3: up to about six months where they can either not play, 59 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 3: which is what current captain Scott Barrett has chosen to 60 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 3: do he is not playing in Super Rugby, or he'll 61 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 3: return late, you know, for the last few games of 62 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 3: Super Rugby, so effectively he'll be having six months off. 63 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 3: He's negotiated the right to do that, or they have 64 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 3: the right to go and use those sabbatical periods to 65 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 3: go and play elsewhere. Typically it's in Japan because it 66 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 3: aligns with the New Zealand season, so they can go 67 00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 3: off to Japan, earn incredible amounts of money, come back 68 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 3: and still be eligible to carry on playing for the 69 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,839 Speaker 3: Old Blacks. Johnny Barrett chose to go to Ireland last year, 70 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 3: so that the option is to go and do that 71 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 3: in Europe. 72 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: Now, where the problem might lie is these ideas. 73 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 3: This is the idea that these guys can have a 74 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 3: short period of time offshore, get a different playing experience, 75 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 3: get a different lifestyle experience, and continue to be All Blacks. 76 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 3: But I think the already example here shows the danger 77 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 3: that if you allow them to go, if you don't 78 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 3: manage that process particularly well because he went to play 79 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 3: in Japan in twenty twenty four and he's there again 80 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 3: this year, which has made his life very difficult. You know, 81 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 3: too much rugby, too much time away from home. And 82 00:04:39,720 --> 00:04:41,440 Speaker 3: I think what we need to look at, or what 83 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 3: you do on rugby certainly needs to look at, is 84 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:46,840 Speaker 3: whether they can endorse that in the future, and whether 85 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 3: they need to be careful about how much time they 86 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,920 Speaker 3: give these guys to go and meander and so their 87 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,280 Speaker 3: wild oats for one of a better terms somewhere else 88 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 3: they probably needed to control that and they didn't do 89 00:04:59,120 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 3: it very well with. 90 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: Already where's he at now, Yeah, look, he's in Japan. 91 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 3: He's feeling better about life, clearly. He's currently negotiating with 92 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 3: New Zealand Rugby a playing schedule that they will agree 93 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 3: with him for that once he comes back from Japan, 94 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:18,640 Speaker 3: which will be sort of late in May early June. 95 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 3: They're then talking to him about saying, well, look, we 96 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 3: can't give you another sabbatical period if you've exhausted all those. 97 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 3: So he's looking at a number of options around physically 98 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 3: taking some time off. So he one option is that 99 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 3: he will not be available for the July test matches 100 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 3: when he comes home, that he just won't play in those. 101 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: He'll take time. 102 00:05:40,360 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 3: Out, He'll be at home, he'll recuperate because he point 103 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 3: needs a bit of a break physically as much as 104 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 3: he needs to spend. 105 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: Some time at home. 106 00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 3: The idea there would be if they give him some 107 00:05:50,839 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 3: time off when he comes home, recuperate, rev him up. 108 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: So the big, the big thing in the All. 109 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 3: Black calendar this year is an eight week tour of 110 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 3: South Africa and they will rd Savvier at his best 111 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 3: for that. 112 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: So that's one option hasn't been agreed. 113 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 3: Maybe he'll take time off at the end of the 114 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 3: year and not go to Europe when the All Blacks 115 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 3: go over there, But I don't think that that's the 116 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 3: preferred option for either him or the new coaching group. 117 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 3: But in terms of where he is that he's looking 118 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 3: at a managed schedule that will take him through the 119 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 3: World Cup. He's given assurance to New Zealand Rugby he 120 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 3: will see out his contract, and I think, you know, 121 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 3: he's probably in a much better headspace. I wouldn't say 122 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 3: that the fact that the head coach has changed has 123 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 3: been the reason. Definitely not the reason why he came 124 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 3: back and negotiated from having said he didn't want to 125 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 3: be here. But I certainly think he'll be looking at 126 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 3: that opportunity as a chance to rebuild, restart, be rejuvenated 127 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 3: by a new coaching group coming in. 128 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 2: I suppose if we were to think of it like 129 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 2: you know, us common people, it'd be like using your 130 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 2: annual leave because you need a break, but then working 131 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:03,920 Speaker 2: for another company or something during your annually, coming back 132 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 2: to your regular job and being like, I'm a bit tired. 133 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's exactly right. 134 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 3: And he well that these sabbatical options they came into play. 135 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 1: I'm old enough. 136 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 3: I broke the initial story back in two thousand and eight. 137 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 3: It was Daniel Carter that this was the first guy 138 00:07:21,000 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 3: because he was going to go offshore for three years. 139 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: He's doing rugby when cheaper is. 140 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 3: We don't want to lose you union mid twenties, So 141 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 3: they said, how about we let you go off shore 142 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 3: for six months and that you still remain contracted to us. 143 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 3: So it was it was. It wasn't a panic move, 144 00:07:36,040 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 3: but it kind of was create a precedent from their 145 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 3: on thing. 146 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: You now like to do this. 147 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 3: Senior players can now do this to elongate their their careers. 148 00:07:46,720 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 3: And yeah, look to me, it's they get paid an 149 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 3: extraordinary amount of money be gone play in Japan, which 150 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 3: is what Ardi has done, probably up to about two 151 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 3: million dollars for the for the biggest names. But the 152 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 3: kicker here, Chelsea, is that they still get paid by 153 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 3: New Zealand Rugby on top of that. So while they 154 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 3: don't get paid the super rugby component of their salary, 155 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 3: which is only and I say only, I don't mean 156 00:08:10,080 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 3: that in the sense of it's not a lot of money, 157 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 3: but it's one hundred and ninety five thousand dollars that 158 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 3: they miss out on. But these guys are getting paid 159 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 3: a million dollars by New Zealand Rugby, so they still 160 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 3: get paid about eight or nine hundred thousand dollars from 161 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,679 Speaker 3: their employer and they're allowed to go and earn money 162 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 3: with a separate employer. 163 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: So these guys can bank up. 164 00:08:30,880 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 3: To about three million dollars in a calendar year by 165 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,600 Speaker 3: being allowed to do that, which is incredibly generous in 166 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 3: an artist case. He's done all that and then come 167 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 3: back and say, yeah, but I'm really tired. So there's 168 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 3: probably in some I know reading the comments that got 169 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 3: attached to my story, there's some people that don't have 170 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 3: any sympathy for that. But look he's landed in a 171 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 3: space where he was allowed to do this. He didn't 172 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:58,680 Speaker 3: go rogue and just go off to Japan. But it 173 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 3: is an interesting point now where New Zealand's best player 174 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 3: has hit a wall and New Zealand Rugby have been 175 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 3: complicit to some extent and allowing that to happen, so 176 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 3: they having to kind of say, okay, well, look all 177 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 3: parties are at fault here. You know you wanted to 178 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 3: do this, you've over reached to some extent. We've allowed 179 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 3: you to do it, we probably shouldn't have. So there 180 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 3: retrospectively trying to manage back from there and say what 181 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 3: can we do to make this work because he's the 182 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:27,319 Speaker 3: best player in the country and they do not want 183 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 3: to lose them eighteen months so before a World Cup. 184 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,319 Speaker 2: Well, essentially our best player's got burnout. Do you reckon, like, 185 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 2: what is the likelihood of them looking at changing those plans? 186 00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 2: Would that work? 187 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: Round? 188 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 3: Well, I mean Bordon Barrett has actually done something reasonably 189 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 3: similar to Ardi. He went to Japan and twenty twenty 190 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 3: one and then he went back again, and I think 191 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:55,359 Speaker 3: he was here in twenty four. 192 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:57,920 Speaker 1: Slightly bigger gap between his now. 193 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 3: I mean he's been fine, he's been okay, he hasn't 194 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 3: hit a wall, but he plays in a different position 195 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:06,439 Speaker 3: and he's a different type of athlete to already. Ardy 196 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 3: is a collision athlete. 197 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: So when you you know, like even. 198 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 3: Richie McCall, who's the greatest All Black of all time, 199 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,679 Speaker 3: had to take six months off playing rugby to get 200 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 3: him through to being able to continue playing. And I 201 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 3: think he was about thirty four or thirty five in 202 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 3: the World Cup final, and he was still at his 203 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 3: best by the time he reached thirty five because he 204 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 3: had taken a six month period where he just didn't play. 205 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 3: He went off and traveled and he had a genuine sabbatical, 206 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 3: went in and got away from the country and mentally, 207 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 3: you know, recharged himself. So that they these are. 208 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: A good mechanism. 209 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 3: They have been a good mechanism in the past to 210 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,319 Speaker 3: recharge players, to keep them in the country and give 211 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 3: them long careers. Artie is maybe the first guy where 212 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,760 Speaker 3: the time off period that they've given him a sabbatical 213 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 3: period to extend his career and an actual fact, it's 214 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 3: ironically being the thing that might have shortened his career essentially. 215 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 3: So I don't think it's about putting a blanket ban 216 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 3: on them. I don't think it's about ripping it all up. 217 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 3: I think it's about saying New Zealand Rugby needs to 218 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:18,840 Speaker 3: have a really careful, more detailed, nuanced management approach around 219 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 3: as players and says, yes, these conditions can be put 220 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 3: into your contract, but I think New Zealand needs to 221 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 3: be very careful about allowing guys to go and play 222 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 3: twice in these foreign competitions and say, look, we think 223 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:35,680 Speaker 3: you need to take time off. You can play in 224 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 3: one one sabbatical period. You can go away and play. 225 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 3: If we give you another one, you're not playing in 226 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 3: that one. You're taking the time off. 227 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 4: I think culture is an interesting word in a sporting sense. 228 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:58,760 Speaker 4: It's not tangible. Nobody could necessarily describe exactly what that means. 229 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 4: But I guess, like in any workplace, it's putting people 230 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:08,480 Speaker 4: first and valuing people, creating an environment where you get 231 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 4: the best out of people. Sometimes that's the stick and 232 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 4: sometimes that's the carrot. But it's how you don't shy 233 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 4: away from hard conversations, how you cultivate purpose and meaning, 234 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 4: particularly within a rugby sense, how you get everyone on 235 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 4: the same page from a strategy point of view, the 236 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 4: leadership of the team, the people that you surround yourself with. 237 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 2: And we know there was a player discontent obviously before 238 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 2: Scott Robertson's departure. Do we know everything that was happening 239 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 2: behind the scenes, Well. 240 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,319 Speaker 1: Not everything, or the thought we're not quite a lot. 241 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 3: It has been detailed in that piece about already there 242 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:03,080 Speaker 3: were there were there were a lot of things that 243 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 3: were unraveling in that team. I wouldn't put the you 244 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 3: wouldn't want to put the blame on one person, and 245 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 3: says all the head coaches thought, I think there's multiple 246 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,400 Speaker 3: people complicit in why a team was unraveling to the 247 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 3: extent that it was. 248 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: And when I say. 249 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:21,079 Speaker 3: Unraveling, you know, it's clear that there were players in 250 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 3: virtual open, open descent towards the end of that Grand 251 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 3: Slam Tour in November last year, talking openly in public 252 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,600 Speaker 3: spaces about their unhappiness. It's very on all black you know, 253 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 3: all Blacks don't do that. They might they might have 254 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 3: a few guys up in the room, you know, whining 255 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 3: and moaning about coaching decision or not being in the team. 256 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 3: And that's always been the case, but it's never been 257 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,719 Speaker 3: sort of open descent because senior players, if they hear that, 258 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 3: usually come along and say you need to be quiet. Now, 259 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 3: that's not how we do it. Guys would be disciplined 260 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 3: by the peers or. 261 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 2: You know that. 262 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:56,480 Speaker 3: And that's what worried in New Zealand rugby was that 263 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 3: kind of self policing mechanism flowing apart in the team. 264 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:02,559 Speaker 1: And it was widespread concern. 265 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 3: About this about the state of the players their ability 266 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 3: to play for the coaching group. 267 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,559 Speaker 1: David Kirk, the chair, had been in Edinburgh and London. 268 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 3: And Chicago, seen firsthand talking to players what was going on. 269 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 3: So what happened was they built quite a detailed doffia 270 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 3: of intel about what was going on and they certainly 271 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 3: got the impression that there were so many red flags 272 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 3: that they needed to investigate what was going on. An 273 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 3: answer to your question, do we know everything, No, but 274 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 3: we know what the end of the story was. The 275 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 3: head coach was removed from his role, so that, you know, 276 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 3: that gives you a pretty clear indication that those that 277 00:14:45,720 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 3: investigated what was going on were pretty distressed to find 278 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 3: out that there was enough there to say, this is 279 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 3: something that's bad enough that we have to remove the 280 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 3: head coach from his job. 281 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,800 Speaker 2: And you mentioned there that it's not very all black like, 282 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 2: do you think that the prestige of being an all black, 283 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 2: even from within and behind the curtain, has diminished in 284 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:10,480 Speaker 2: some way? 285 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:12,800 Speaker 1: I don't think the prestige of being an all Blacks 286 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: has diminished. 287 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 3: I think they I think, you know, we talked there 288 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 3: about the head coach was removed from his role, but 289 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 3: I think some of the senior all Black players, with 290 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 3: a lot of the all black players I think let 291 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:29,040 Speaker 3: themselves down quite badly in the final period of Scott 292 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 3: Robertson's tenure, because a coach shouldn't be blindsided like that 293 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 3: about the level of unhappiness and discontent, the whole self 294 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 3: policing mechanism of the all Blacks and the whole kind 295 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 3: of they're there. They're there for the team and what's 296 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 3: right for the team or what's right for the team 297 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 3: is that these guys needed to be talking to the coach. 298 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 1: They needed to be. 299 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 3: Saying this isn't right, we don't think this is going 300 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 3: to work. You know, push back. That's how these environments 301 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 3: got I mean it might not be necessarily yeah, to 302 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 3: some extent, it's what we have ens me certainly at 303 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 3: the Herald. You know, you push back sometimes to your 304 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 3: news editor and say, hey, I actually think this was 305 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 3: a good story. That's a robust culture that you get 306 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 3: to get the best out of people, to get the 307 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 3: best out of your environment. And then the all Blacks 308 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 3: in particular, certainly when you know, in previous regimes I've 309 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 3: covered a guy like McCall had a figure group around them. 310 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 3: They spoke up and they spoke out and they had 311 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 3: a collaborative agreement with the cultures about two and you 312 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 3: know what they could put into the. 313 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: Uh, you know what they put into the One. 314 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 5: Thing I thought was really quite interesting about your article 315 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:37,120 Speaker 5: and why I call upon the prestige of the All Blacks, 316 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 5: I suppose is the ramifications for wrongdoing apparently have you know, lightened. 317 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 5: I suppose Do you think that's got anything to do 318 00:16:48,640 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 5: with the discontent. 319 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 3: I think I had a huge part to do with 320 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 3: the discontent. I wouldn't say that this is necessarily going 321 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 3: to be how life will be under the next culturing 322 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 3: regime or how it's been under previous ones. But under 323 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:07,679 Speaker 3: Scott Robertson's coaching regime, there was certainly a sense uh 324 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 3: you know detailed to Damien McKinsey episode where he missed 325 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 3: the bus taking the team from San Diego back to 326 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:20,879 Speaker 3: Los Angeles and his punishment was to apologize to the team. Well, 327 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 3: in previous All Black regimes, I can absolutely guarantee you 328 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 3: he would not have been playing the next week, and 329 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 3: maybe even beyond that might have been a two week 330 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 3: because the players would have said, that's a massive indiscretion. 331 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 3: That is not reaching the standards that we expect, you know, 332 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,399 Speaker 3: in previous regimes, if you were late for just a 333 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:41,240 Speaker 3: sort of meeting about something not that important, if you're 334 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 3: late by a minute, you'd be fined or you'd be disciplined. 335 00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 3: And so the myth of bus taking you back to 336 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 3: an airport was a was. 337 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: A major indiscretion that really. 338 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 3: Didn't get dealt with particularly well, and it set the tone, 339 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 3: you know, set the tone inside the team under the 340 00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 3: Robertson era because he was the culture coach, and that 341 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 3: kind of stuff, if you don't deal with it becomes 342 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 3: a massive problem. The all blacks have an expectation that 343 00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 3: you know, you turn up on time, you're wearing the 344 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 3: right kit. It's really really laid out to you what 345 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 3: you need to do, when you need to do, how 346 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 3: you need to behave, all this kind of stuff. So 347 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 3: if you if you fail, you're put in front of 348 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 3: your peer group usually and they give you a pretty 349 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,959 Speaker 3: tough time about, you know, how you've let the team down. 350 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 1: All that kind of stuff. 351 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,199 Speaker 3: So that was quite a corross development inside that particular 352 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 3: team because. 353 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,720 Speaker 1: They don't had another incident where ethan the. 354 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 3: Group, we don't actually know what his misdemeanor was but 355 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 3: we believe it was he missed a curfew and then 356 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 3: he was stood down for a game. Now that's the 357 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 3: right call in some senses, but it then pushed back 358 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:48,720 Speaker 3: against what had happened to Damian mckinseick. 359 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 1: So it felt like there's a sort of two tier 360 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: of you know, it depends who you might be. 361 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 3: And what position you play, and that might have an 362 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 3: impact on your punishment. And if you go back to 363 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:03,159 Speaker 3: the world cut, Mark Tallaer, who was the sort of 364 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 3: formed wing of the of the All Blacks at that time, 365 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 3: a really important player to them, he missed the curfew 366 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 3: during the World Cup and he then missed the World 367 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 3: Cup quarterfinal. He didn't get to play in it. Now 368 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 3: he was a hugely important player. But they but they 369 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 3: were adamant, you've you haven't met standards, so you're not playing, 370 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 3: And that was really clear to the players in the 371 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 3: previous regime. 372 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: And then the Robertson one. 373 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 3: There were all these contradictions and indiscretions that got punished 374 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 3: and some that did and some that didn't. 375 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 1: So that became a real issue inside the team. 376 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:38,640 Speaker 2: Right Gregor, So what next, what do you expect from 377 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,199 Speaker 2: this coaching team. Are they going to be carrot or stick? 378 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 3: There'll be There'll be a combination of the two as 379 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 3: they need to be. I don't think they'll set out 380 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 3: with a particular view on one or or the other. 381 00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 3: It'll be an environment that they set out with really 382 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,880 Speaker 3: clear expectations for the players about how the team wants 383 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 3: to play, how they expectations around behavior. These are always 384 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 3: pretty obvious anyway, when you're an old Black. By the 385 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,320 Speaker 3: time you've got there, you've a pretty good understanding about 386 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 3: how you meant to behave you know what being an 387 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,639 Speaker 3: old Black looks like. But he will reinforce that. I 388 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 3: think it would be an empowering environment. I think he'd 389 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 3: be more collaborative with the players, with players will have 390 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 3: greater input both the strategy and look off the field. 391 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 3: I think they'll be given a bit of leeway to 392 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 3: behave like adults, and if they don't, they'll be you know, 393 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 3: they'll be There'll be punishment for that. 394 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: They'll have a clearly set out set. 395 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 3: Of standards, and I'm sure that Dave will be really 396 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 3: consistent with how he treats the players if if they 397 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 3: behave or don't behave, all of that will be really 398 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 3: clear to them about what what happens. 399 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 2: Do you think there's any more to come out. 400 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: I'd be very surprised if there's any more to come out. 401 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,959 Speaker 1: I think that's probably it, and I don't really know 402 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: if anyone will. 403 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 3: Certainly I won't be looking any harder or any further 404 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 3: because I feel like that's a fairly exhaustive search that's 405 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 3: already been carried out. And secondly, look value around doing 406 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 3: that now journalistically has probably gone because you know, the 407 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 3: change has been made. We all know there was a 408 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 3: problem and the problem is undeniable because they moved the culture, 409 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:13,040 Speaker 3: they terminated as jobs. 410 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: So now I think I think we've probably brought that 411 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 1: story to names. 412 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 6: Yeah, all I know is like change, change is good 413 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 6: sometimes and having Razor has already got what he's done 414 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 6: in Supers, so it's going to be it's going to 415 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 6: be pretty interesting. Is going to be awesome, Like for 416 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,679 Speaker 6: me is even though like great year last year, I 417 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 6: sit in this comfort too because I'm like where do 418 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,479 Speaker 6: I sit? I've still got to make the team some 419 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 6: great Lucy's playing in New Zealand right now, so I'm 420 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 6: on my toes here where like I'm trying to still 421 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 6: compete and still try and be the best. You know, yeah, yeah, 422 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 6: But as for all, Blest Africa is going to be excited. 423 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 6: Got some exciting fixtures, you know. The interview tour too 424 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 6: is a massive So it's going to be great. 425 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 2: Men, and just from just because I'm interested. When you 426 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 2: get kind of like a whispering of say Anadi Savier 427 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 2: looking to renegotiate his contract or wanting to walk away, 428 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 2: or these kind of murmurings of discontent among the crew, 429 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 2: as a journalist, what do you have to do to 430 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 2: try and see whether that's actually the case? Like, how 431 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 2: many people do you go. 432 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 3: Through in the case of this piece I just finished 433 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 3: I Canada up the other day and I think it 434 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 3: was about twenty nine, if not thirty people, you know 435 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 3: who with direct connections to the information that you're trying 436 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 3: to find out. 437 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: You can't take anything on. 438 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,040 Speaker 3: There's a lot of there's a lot of rumor and 439 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 3: there's a lot of speculation. 440 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: There's a lot of people that think they. 441 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 3: Know about what was happening in and around the team 442 00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 3: because players talk, you know, players talk to an agent 443 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,240 Speaker 3: might then talk to the administrator. Administrator talks to someone 444 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 3: and you can be four steps removed and that story 445 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 3: that you're hearing can be completely changed in terms of 446 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 3: what was actually happening with Ardie Savier. There were a 447 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,359 Speaker 3: lot of rumors apparently, you know, he was about to 448 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 3: sign a contract with an Irish club, or he was 449 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 3: about to go and do this. There's no evidence of 450 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 3: that though. When you actually get to the people that 451 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,679 Speaker 3: you need to speak to and you find out, you know, 452 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 3: you've got to actually talk to the people that were 453 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:31,560 Speaker 3: talking to Ardi tried very hard to get Ardie himself 454 00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 3: to talk, but he didn't want to. He may, in time, 455 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 3: you know, deal with with his situation. He may say something, 456 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 3: he may not, but you've got to ask. You've got 457 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 3: to be one hundred percent certain. You've got to be 458 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 3: talking to the right people, people that can tell you 459 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 3: with some uncertainty because they're directly connected to that information, 460 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 3: and you can be certain about you know, when I 461 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 3: you know when when I. 462 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: Wrote that, Ardi was very clear about his intentions, and 463 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: you can guess. 464 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 3: You've got to be talking to people that know what 465 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 3: was said in that room, would be confident that they 466 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 3: know what was said in that room. So that takes 467 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 3: time to put all that together, and you know, in 468 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 3: the end people might not like I know, there's been 469 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 3: a bit of pushback from people connected to the story 470 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 3: who feel it's kind of going over all ground or 471 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 3: it's being you know, it's dragging Scott Robertson's regime through 472 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,159 Speaker 3: the mud one more time. But no one disputes the 473 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 3: accuracy of it, you know, that's the important thing. Everyone 474 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 3: that the narrative is correct. As far as I can 475 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 3: tell that the timelines are all correct, the story is 476 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 3: all correct, and the public can. 477 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:39,760 Speaker 1: Make their minds up about the value of that. 478 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,040 Speaker 3: And I guess you know, what the Herald's building its 479 00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 3: premium reputation on is being correct, being accurate and telling 480 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 3: stories to that kind of depth, and they give people 481 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 3: an insight into what was really going on in the 482 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 3: Old Blacks. 483 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: And whether it's valuable or not, I guess will be. 484 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 3: You know, our audience will judge the value depending on 485 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 3: how many people read it and how many people be 486 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:02,479 Speaker 3: for it well. 487 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 2: And it's important for the history books as well, surely 488 00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: to know what different eras of the All Blanks. You know, 489 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 2: which is a team that is not just a sports 490 00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:16,360 Speaker 2: team in this country. They're held to such high regard. 491 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 2: They're put on the highest pedestal, so of course it's important. 492 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for joining us, Gregor. 493 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: My pleasure. Thank you. 494 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 495 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 496 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 2: at enzidherld dot co dot enz The Front Page is 497 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 2: hosted and produced by me Chelsea Daniels. Caine Dickie is 498 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 2: our studio operator, Richard Martin, our producer and editor, and 499 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 2: our executive producer is Jane Ye. Follow the Front Page 500 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,360 Speaker 2: on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcasts, 501 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 2: and join us next time for another look beyond the headlines.