1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:11,973 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B. 2 00:00:12,373 --> 00:00:16,173 Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,693 --> 00:00:19,733 Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all 4 00:00:19,773 --> 00:00:24,813 Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the now, the Leyton 5 00:00:24,933 --> 00:00:27,653 Speaker 1: Smith Podcast powered by news talks it B. 6 00:00:28,213 --> 00:00:31,053 Speaker 2: Now Welcome to the best of the Layton Smith Podcast 7 00:00:31,093 --> 00:00:34,693 Speaker 2: for twenty twenty five, where we replay some of the 8 00:00:36,293 --> 00:00:39,533 Speaker 2: interesting conversations that we've had during the course of the year, 9 00:00:40,133 --> 00:00:46,293 Speaker 2: and maybe sometimes outside of that restrictive boundary. Romanians are 10 00:00:46,453 --> 00:00:50,413 Speaker 2: still navigating the difficult path of building democratic institutions and 11 00:00:50,493 --> 00:00:54,013 Speaker 2: a culture of transparency now. At the same time, widespread 12 00:00:54,053 --> 00:00:57,933 Speaker 2: perceptions of corruption and cronyism have caused many Romanians to 13 00:00:57,973 --> 00:01:03,733 Speaker 2: see little change from communist leadership. Atonia Kalabanasu is a 14 00:01:03,813 --> 00:01:08,493 Speaker 2: lecturer on international relations at the Romanian National University. We 15 00:01:08,533 --> 00:01:12,493 Speaker 2: talk about Romania's position and future influence in Europe and 16 00:01:12,773 --> 00:01:16,493 Speaker 2: analyze the difficulties the country is faced with. She also 17 00:01:16,533 --> 00:01:21,173 Speaker 2: summarizes the country's relationship between Russia, Ukraine, Poland and the 18 00:01:21,213 --> 00:01:24,973 Speaker 2: rest of Europe. It all continues to be of major 19 00:01:25,053 --> 00:01:28,253 Speaker 2: interest to much of the rest of the world. Now, 20 00:01:28,253 --> 00:01:31,493 Speaker 2: one thing that interested me was the discussion that we 21 00:01:31,613 --> 00:01:34,893 Speaker 2: had at various points in the conversation with regard to 22 00:01:35,933 --> 00:01:40,333 Speaker 2: well Romania as a travel destination, and it certainly wet 23 00:01:40,373 --> 00:01:45,013 Speaker 2: my appetite. So it's a bit travelogueish as well. Now 24 00:01:45,013 --> 00:01:47,973 Speaker 2: at the end, I'll recommend a book to you in 25 00:01:47,973 --> 00:01:50,813 Speaker 2: case you want a follow up and read a little 26 00:01:50,813 --> 00:02:10,893 Speaker 2: more on what you've heard. Tonio Colabasanu is a Senior 27 00:02:10,893 --> 00:02:15,293 Speaker 2: Fellow for the Eurasia Program at the Foreign Policy Research Institute. 28 00:02:15,333 --> 00:02:19,853 Speaker 2: She is also Associate Professor of geopolitics and geoeconomics on 29 00:02:20,053 --> 00:02:24,493 Speaker 2: international Relations at the Romanian National University of Political Studies 30 00:02:25,093 --> 00:02:29,613 Speaker 2: and Public Administration. Now, there is a very long list 31 00:02:29,653 --> 00:02:33,133 Speaker 2: of qualifications that she has, but probably the most important 32 00:02:33,133 --> 00:02:36,413 Speaker 2: one I've left to the last. She is embedded with 33 00:02:36,853 --> 00:02:42,853 Speaker 2: George Friedman and geopolitical futures. Before that, as I just 34 00:02:42,893 --> 00:02:49,013 Speaker 2: discovered a while back, she worked in association was George 35 00:02:49,613 --> 00:02:54,013 Speaker 2: at his previous operation which was which. 36 00:02:53,853 --> 00:03:00,253 Speaker 3: Was stratfor And yes, I've worked for way too long 37 00:03:00,453 --> 00:03:03,173 Speaker 3: in essence with George, but I'm glad to do so. 38 00:03:03,293 --> 00:03:06,293 Speaker 3: He marked my career well. 39 00:03:06,413 --> 00:03:09,733 Speaker 2: I could only say that you must have a lot 40 00:03:09,733 --> 00:03:15,413 Speaker 2: of patience, so I Welcome to the vodcast anyway, strange 41 00:03:15,413 --> 00:03:17,533 Speaker 2: way of getting here, but here we are. Look, I 42 00:03:17,613 --> 00:03:22,813 Speaker 2: want to start with something that I know will find 43 00:03:22,853 --> 00:03:27,493 Speaker 2: favor with those listening, and that is the blackout that 44 00:03:27,573 --> 00:03:32,373 Speaker 2: the Spanish experienced just a few weeks ago April twenty eight. Actually, 45 00:03:32,773 --> 00:03:35,733 Speaker 2: millions across Spain, Portugal and pats of France were plunged 46 00:03:35,773 --> 00:03:41,013 Speaker 2: into darkness after a massive unexpected power outage. Metro systems 47 00:03:41,053 --> 00:03:46,133 Speaker 2: stalled airport's ground to halt, hospitals switched frantically to backup generators, 48 00:03:46,133 --> 00:03:51,013 Speaker 2: and critical communication networks collapsed temporarily. Now, of course we 49 00:03:51,173 --> 00:03:54,733 Speaker 2: covered this in New Zealand, like everybody did around the world. 50 00:03:54,813 --> 00:03:58,173 Speaker 2: But the article that you wrote, the first line of 51 00:03:58,213 --> 00:04:02,853 Speaker 2: it is the incident proves that true energy independence is 52 00:04:02,893 --> 00:04:05,653 Speaker 2: a myth. Would you like to expand on that? 53 00:04:06,173 --> 00:04:11,133 Speaker 3: Of course, Well, basically you have no energy independence, and 54 00:04:11,773 --> 00:04:18,413 Speaker 3: that's because networks are interconnected. But beyond that, this push 55 00:04:18,573 --> 00:04:25,053 Speaker 3: towards the green energy needed to replace fossil energy sources 56 00:04:25,933 --> 00:04:33,533 Speaker 3: has creative vulnerabilities that are not necessarily understood and therefore 57 00:04:33,573 --> 00:04:38,493 Speaker 3: they cannot be fully managed. And that's probably the hardest 58 00:04:38,613 --> 00:04:44,253 Speaker 3: lesson that Spain and Portugal learned throughout the blackout. The 59 00:04:44,333 --> 00:04:51,133 Speaker 3: problem was that once you have mostly electricity coming from 60 00:04:51,173 --> 00:04:55,053 Speaker 3: green energy from solar and wind, you do not necessarily 61 00:04:55,133 --> 00:04:59,813 Speaker 3: have the backout the flow. You do not have an 62 00:04:59,933 --> 00:05:05,173 Speaker 3: ensured flow of energy and an ensured constancy of energy 63 00:05:05,253 --> 00:05:10,493 Speaker 3: that the other fossil fuel US natural gas, which is 64 00:05:10,533 --> 00:05:15,613 Speaker 3: not necessarily a fossil fuel, and everything else is giving. 65 00:05:16,213 --> 00:05:22,293 Speaker 3: So what happened there is because of changes in temperature, 66 00:05:23,173 --> 00:05:26,293 Speaker 3: everything collapsed and then they didn't know how to put 67 00:05:26,293 --> 00:05:30,533 Speaker 3: it all back. So that lesson is likely going to 68 00:05:30,573 --> 00:05:35,253 Speaker 3: get into another lesson for Europe and the European Union 69 00:05:35,293 --> 00:05:39,573 Speaker 3: in particular, where we have this push towards green We 70 00:05:39,693 --> 00:05:43,533 Speaker 3: have this idea that we need to manage climate change 71 00:05:43,573 --> 00:05:46,733 Speaker 3: and whatnot, but at the same time we tend to 72 00:05:46,773 --> 00:05:54,773 Speaker 3: forget that all changes drive vulnerable elements. And therefore, while 73 00:05:54,813 --> 00:05:58,333 Speaker 3: we're doing this for one reason or another, we need 74 00:05:58,373 --> 00:06:02,493 Speaker 3: to be cautious about what could go wrong. And I 75 00:06:02,533 --> 00:06:05,053 Speaker 3: don't think we have had that on our mind. And 76 00:06:05,133 --> 00:06:08,973 Speaker 3: I believe that right now the policy discourse, at least 77 00:06:09,013 --> 00:06:13,653 Speaker 3: time this green energy push is going to be modified 78 00:06:13,773 --> 00:06:19,573 Speaker 3: because obviously, I mean, if nothing else, the blackout push 79 00:06:19,613 --> 00:06:25,373 Speaker 3: towards Okay, we also need reliable fossil fuels to maintain 80 00:06:25,493 --> 00:06:32,293 Speaker 3: constancy in our networks, and green energy cannot ensure independence 81 00:06:32,373 --> 00:06:37,013 Speaker 3: because everything is linked together. And guess what, we also 82 00:06:37,053 --> 00:06:40,573 Speaker 3: have vulnerable parts that are linked together because this started 83 00:06:40,613 --> 00:06:44,693 Speaker 3: in France but did not finish influence. So all that 84 00:06:45,373 --> 00:06:49,533 Speaker 3: points out that we're in a new thinking mode, at 85 00:06:49,613 --> 00:06:54,693 Speaker 3: least for green energy and everything that relates to it. 86 00:06:55,453 --> 00:06:58,973 Speaker 2: So when somebody writes to me after hearing this and 87 00:06:59,213 --> 00:07:02,733 Speaker 2: says to me, what would she know. She's an economist, 88 00:07:03,013 --> 00:07:05,933 Speaker 2: she's not a scientist, So why does she have the 89 00:07:06,013 --> 00:07:09,253 Speaker 2: right to say it's a myth? 90 00:07:10,773 --> 00:07:16,093 Speaker 3: Well, bottom line, I've read a lot because I had to. 91 00:07:16,533 --> 00:07:20,853 Speaker 3: So in geopolitics, what we do is looking at those 92 00:07:20,973 --> 00:07:27,773 Speaker 3: vulnerable sectors that are driving instability, which means that you 93 00:07:27,813 --> 00:07:32,573 Speaker 3: are looking at elements that would cause unstable economics and 94 00:07:32,613 --> 00:07:40,053 Speaker 3: therefore unstable politics. So energy is the one factor that 95 00:07:40,173 --> 00:07:45,933 Speaker 3: cuts into both worlds, because without energy, you cannot really 96 00:07:45,973 --> 00:07:51,973 Speaker 3: sustain economic production and you cannot sustain social stability because 97 00:07:51,973 --> 00:07:54,453 Speaker 3: if you do not have economic production, you will have 98 00:07:55,653 --> 00:08:02,733 Speaker 3: likely protests and unemployment that drive from economic production and 99 00:08:02,893 --> 00:08:09,533 Speaker 3: therefore political instability. Let alone, I mean these these writings, 100 00:08:10,053 --> 00:08:14,853 Speaker 3: and you know, these readings that I've done during the 101 00:08:14,973 --> 00:08:21,173 Speaker 3: years starting with Stratford were also related to Russia and 102 00:08:22,693 --> 00:08:28,653 Speaker 3: Russia's strategy towards Europe and European Union, in particular because 103 00:08:29,613 --> 00:08:36,973 Speaker 3: Russia basically supported its strategy of resurrecting as a global 104 00:08:37,093 --> 00:08:42,613 Speaker 3: power through energy raw materials that it is selling all 105 00:08:42,653 --> 00:08:47,173 Speaker 3: over the globe and in particular for Europe oil and gas. 106 00:08:47,693 --> 00:08:51,573 Speaker 3: So I had to basically read a lot about what 107 00:08:53,093 --> 00:08:59,173 Speaker 3: energy means and what this i'd say idea of getting 108 00:08:59,973 --> 00:09:04,533 Speaker 3: less and less dependent on imports of oil and gas 109 00:09:04,573 --> 00:09:09,893 Speaker 3: through green energy means for the europe Union for a while. 110 00:09:09,893 --> 00:09:14,333 Speaker 3: I'll also I also served as an honorary advisory in 111 00:09:14,413 --> 00:09:19,253 Speaker 3: my capacity of TEO political analysts for a Romanian energy minister, 112 00:09:19,693 --> 00:09:24,933 Speaker 3: just because I knew how Russia is playing with all 113 00:09:24,973 --> 00:09:28,733 Speaker 3: sorts of things, including globbing from green for green energy 114 00:09:28,733 --> 00:09:33,493 Speaker 3: and Brussels at the time, because it had an interest 115 00:09:33,893 --> 00:09:38,733 Speaker 3: to maintain itself the only and sole provider of oil 116 00:09:38,813 --> 00:09:43,653 Speaker 3: and gas and cut down while the Europeans would cut 117 00:09:43,693 --> 00:09:48,053 Speaker 3: down all fossil fuel production and got into the green 118 00:09:48,413 --> 00:09:52,693 Speaker 3: energy side. That was profitable for Russia because it knew 119 00:09:52,733 --> 00:09:57,493 Speaker 3: that Europe needs fossil fuels to maintain this constancy, and 120 00:09:57,533 --> 00:10:03,253 Speaker 3: therefore it needed to have imports from Russia, while not 121 00:10:03,413 --> 00:10:10,333 Speaker 3: producing themselves would lower the European Union capacity of truly 122 00:10:10,653 --> 00:10:15,893 Speaker 3: lowering dependency. Again, independency is a myth, but lowering dependency 123 00:10:16,013 --> 00:10:20,773 Speaker 3: was not and is not. So it's basically from the 124 00:10:20,813 --> 00:10:24,453 Speaker 3: study of the balance of powers, if you will, through 125 00:10:24,653 --> 00:10:28,733 Speaker 3: energy that I've learned all things about engineering processes that 126 00:10:29,333 --> 00:10:33,453 Speaker 3: refer to the way green energy is being produced, how 127 00:10:33,493 --> 00:10:37,693 Speaker 3: solar and wind are not necessarily reliable because they depend 128 00:10:37,773 --> 00:10:42,133 Speaker 3: on whether changes, and they're very much volatile in some 129 00:10:42,293 --> 00:10:47,253 Speaker 3: parts more than others in Europe, and other things related 130 00:10:47,293 --> 00:10:54,173 Speaker 3: to how do you sustain production, how do you sustain 131 00:10:54,613 --> 00:10:57,573 Speaker 3: the push for policy making, and all that sort of 132 00:10:57,613 --> 00:11:05,093 Speaker 3: thing which is more political the later part in politicking 133 00:11:05,013 --> 00:11:10,413 Speaker 3: in Brussels that referred to the balance of power per se, 134 00:11:10,613 --> 00:11:15,733 Speaker 3: and not even discussing the economics repercussions. 135 00:11:16,013 --> 00:11:19,053 Speaker 2: Okay, I asked that question because I knew the answer, 136 00:11:19,533 --> 00:11:22,173 Speaker 2: but I asked it for a specific reason. I wanted 137 00:11:22,173 --> 00:11:25,053 Speaker 2: to hear you say it. But in this part of 138 00:11:25,093 --> 00:11:28,493 Speaker 2: the world, Australia has just had an election, as you'd know, 139 00:11:29,373 --> 00:11:34,533 Speaker 2: and they've voted in a bunch of insane people, and 140 00:11:34,613 --> 00:11:38,373 Speaker 2: I mean that in a few cases, and as a 141 00:11:38,613 --> 00:11:41,373 Speaker 2: result of that, net zero is full on. Now, net 142 00:11:41,453 --> 00:11:45,773 Speaker 2: zero is impossible. I know this from all the reading 143 00:11:45,813 --> 00:11:50,493 Speaker 2: that I've done, but specifically from one expat Kiwi, New Zealander, 144 00:11:50,653 --> 00:11:57,493 Speaker 2: who was a very highly ranked professor in engineering in 145 00:11:58,173 --> 00:12:01,653 Speaker 2: the UK at Cambridge, and I've interviewed him on Northern 146 00:12:01,693 --> 00:12:05,333 Speaker 2: one occasion and he has explained it. Now. The reason 147 00:12:05,373 --> 00:12:08,253 Speaker 2: I'm telling you this is because he visits back here 148 00:12:08,813 --> 00:12:11,413 Speaker 2: every couple of years, and I know there have been 149 00:12:11,413 --> 00:12:14,853 Speaker 2: efforts to get him to talk with them, with the politicians, 150 00:12:15,733 --> 00:12:18,613 Speaker 2: those who are making the decisions and others, and I'm 151 00:12:18,653 --> 00:12:22,213 Speaker 2: about the only one who would interview him. They didn't 152 00:12:22,213 --> 00:12:24,733 Speaker 2: want to know. Albeit that, as I said, he's an 153 00:12:24,733 --> 00:12:27,893 Speaker 2: expant New Zealander still a whole citizenship, that he is 154 00:12:27,973 --> 00:12:30,773 Speaker 2: highly that he is highly educated, and he knows exactly 155 00:12:30,853 --> 00:12:33,533 Speaker 2: what he's talking about and he explains it perfectly. And 156 00:12:34,053 --> 00:12:37,373 Speaker 2: net zero is a myth. I tell you that for 157 00:12:37,413 --> 00:12:41,893 Speaker 2: interest sake. I just wonder whether you had the same 158 00:12:42,173 --> 00:12:45,453 Speaker 2: or a similar approach. You took a similar line toward 159 00:12:46,133 --> 00:12:47,613 Speaker 2: COVID at its effect. 160 00:12:48,013 --> 00:12:55,733 Speaker 3: Well, basically covered as has been a virus that well, 161 00:12:55,813 --> 00:12:59,693 Speaker 3: everyone needed to stay away from. But at the same 162 00:12:59,733 --> 00:13:02,413 Speaker 3: time there is a balance, and we need to think 163 00:13:02,453 --> 00:13:07,613 Speaker 3: about the effects that staying away and staying fully protected 164 00:13:08,333 --> 00:13:11,293 Speaker 3: from the virus, which is rather impossible, I might say, 165 00:13:11,693 --> 00:13:14,693 Speaker 3: because it's a virus. You couldnot be fully protected from 166 00:13:14,733 --> 00:13:18,973 Speaker 3: a virus unless you're very, very lucky or live on 167 00:13:19,013 --> 00:13:22,373 Speaker 3: a cliff somewhere, and even then who knows. I mean. 168 00:13:22,893 --> 00:13:30,213 Speaker 3: But besides that, getting into full protection chair basically gets 169 00:13:30,493 --> 00:13:35,933 Speaker 3: to have social effects because obviously there is the science 170 00:13:35,973 --> 00:13:40,373 Speaker 3: that says this could be deadly and this is how 171 00:13:40,413 --> 00:13:44,653 Speaker 3: you should protect and this is whatever, you know, the 172 00:13:45,493 --> 00:13:48,533 Speaker 3: list of things that you need to do. But from 173 00:13:48,613 --> 00:13:53,853 Speaker 3: science to imposing things that you need to do you 174 00:13:53,973 --> 00:14:00,133 Speaker 3: must do, then we are basically having the science taking 175 00:14:00,173 --> 00:14:07,813 Speaker 3: over institutions and institutions that relate to rights, to fundamental 176 00:14:07,893 --> 00:14:11,613 Speaker 3: rights that human beings should have in a working democracy, 177 00:14:11,653 --> 00:14:15,973 Speaker 3: for instance, which is what we strive for and what 178 00:14:16,093 --> 00:14:20,253 Speaker 3: we hope to maintain. Now, that caused a lot of 179 00:14:21,013 --> 00:14:24,533 Speaker 3: side effects. Basically we have the economic side effects. We 180 00:14:24,573 --> 00:14:30,133 Speaker 3: had the economic repercussions which are very well known and yes, 181 00:14:30,373 --> 00:14:34,933 Speaker 3: to a certain extent, it was probably good that we 182 00:14:35,053 --> 00:14:41,133 Speaker 3: had higher level of protection, higher level of reassuring ourselves 183 00:14:41,173 --> 00:14:43,373 Speaker 3: that we are doing the right thing, that we have 184 00:14:44,293 --> 00:14:47,933 Speaker 3: the right medicines, and therefore, in order to get the 185 00:14:48,013 --> 00:14:52,653 Speaker 3: right medicines, we need to slow down our economic captivity 186 00:14:52,813 --> 00:14:58,133 Speaker 3: and whatever. But getting ourselves into a situation where we 187 00:14:58,373 --> 00:15:04,933 Speaker 3: basically did not function as a society was detrimental, first 188 00:15:05,053 --> 00:15:09,053 Speaker 3: for the economics and later for the sociopolitics. I mean, 189 00:15:09,093 --> 00:15:13,453 Speaker 3: we wonder now in Europe at least, there's this discussion 190 00:15:14,173 --> 00:15:22,333 Speaker 3: about disinformation and how disinformation basically started during the pandemic. Now, 191 00:15:22,573 --> 00:15:27,533 Speaker 3: all fears came alive during the pandemic, and when fears 192 00:15:27,573 --> 00:15:34,293 Speaker 3: come alive, you basically have waves of narratives that refer 193 00:15:34,453 --> 00:15:40,133 Speaker 3: to those fears. And obviously, because we also live in 194 00:15:40,213 --> 00:15:44,173 Speaker 3: a world where they have Internet, where we have all 195 00:15:44,213 --> 00:15:48,093 Speaker 3: sorts of communication channels, and where we have states interested 196 00:15:48,853 --> 00:15:53,173 Speaker 3: in supporting their own agendas, so yes, states will take 197 00:15:53,213 --> 00:15:58,133 Speaker 3: those fears and will transform them into sort of propaganda narratives. 198 00:15:58,493 --> 00:16:03,293 Speaker 3: But the cause, the root cause of that was basically 199 00:16:03,293 --> 00:16:06,933 Speaker 3: the way we managed COVID. The fact that we made 200 00:16:07,093 --> 00:16:11,293 Speaker 3: off that virus was a very dangerous verse and all that, 201 00:16:11,613 --> 00:16:14,933 Speaker 3: But the fact that we made of it a source 202 00:16:15,213 --> 00:16:18,653 Speaker 3: of all fears and we kept it going for years. 203 00:16:18,933 --> 00:16:25,653 Speaker 2: How how suppressed was society in Romania during that period 204 00:16:25,653 --> 00:16:26,613 Speaker 2: and for how long. 205 00:16:29,013 --> 00:16:34,493 Speaker 3: I would think, I mean, compared to others in obvious China. 206 00:16:34,613 --> 00:16:38,013 Speaker 3: Obviously China is the you know, the most the most 207 00:16:38,053 --> 00:16:43,613 Speaker 3: obvious example of suppressed society. But in Romania, I don't 208 00:16:43,653 --> 00:16:50,173 Speaker 3: think we had a level of suppression that went really 209 00:16:50,213 --> 00:16:55,773 Speaker 3: really high. There was the during the first two years, 210 00:16:57,533 --> 00:17:02,453 Speaker 3: there were the interdictions of you know, traveling from one 211 00:17:02,533 --> 00:17:07,773 Speaker 3: place to another, maintaining social distance, making sure that people 212 00:17:07,813 --> 00:17:14,733 Speaker 3: of elderly age stay in for the rush hours and whatnot. 213 00:17:14,853 --> 00:17:20,093 Speaker 3: So it was a mild kind of suppression. But at 214 00:17:20,093 --> 00:17:25,893 Speaker 3: the same time, Romania was on the borderland. And when 215 00:17:25,933 --> 00:17:30,573 Speaker 3: I say this, I say it is a democracy that 216 00:17:30,733 --> 00:17:34,973 Speaker 3: is still building itself, that still remembers the suppression that 217 00:17:35,213 --> 00:17:41,653 Speaker 3: was in a sense much higher than the suppression in 218 00:17:41,693 --> 00:17:46,613 Speaker 3: the Eastern Bloc. So bottom line, it was a fertile 219 00:17:47,093 --> 00:17:53,773 Speaker 3: land for everything, including this information campaign, including all sorts 220 00:17:53,813 --> 00:17:59,493 Speaker 3: of social engineering, if you will. So even if we 221 00:17:59,613 --> 00:18:03,173 Speaker 3: had a mild suppression code and code, and we had 222 00:18:03,533 --> 00:18:08,013 Speaker 3: this idea that mainly in the main cities, you are 223 00:18:08,573 --> 00:18:13,293 Speaker 3: very much surveilled in what you're doing and you should 224 00:18:13,293 --> 00:18:16,653 Speaker 3: not do this and this and that. Then in the 225 00:18:16,733 --> 00:18:20,173 Speaker 3: rural side, in the non urban side, it was a 226 00:18:20,253 --> 00:18:27,613 Speaker 3: totally different way of living. And this clash between the 227 00:18:27,773 --> 00:18:31,693 Speaker 3: urban and the non urban. Uh. The idea that some 228 00:18:31,893 --> 00:18:36,733 Speaker 3: could still impose on the people's will while we are 229 00:18:36,773 --> 00:18:40,413 Speaker 3: still building our democrats, democratic rights and all that and 230 00:18:40,453 --> 00:18:47,253 Speaker 3: democratic institutions has created an environment that we have to 231 00:18:47,333 --> 00:18:48,533 Speaker 3: deal with even today. 232 00:18:49,173 --> 00:18:52,413 Speaker 2: Were you aware of how difficult life got in this 233 00:18:52,733 --> 00:18:55,093 Speaker 2: in this country? In New Zealand. 234 00:18:56,573 --> 00:18:58,493 Speaker 3: To tell you this, there is no. 235 00:18:58,093 --> 00:19:04,813 Speaker 2: No We experienced totalitarianism and it's not an exaggeration. It 236 00:19:04,933 --> 00:19:08,493 Speaker 2: mightn't have been the worst kind of totalitarianism, but it 237 00:19:08,533 --> 00:19:11,773 Speaker 2: was a good step into it, and no one will 238 00:19:11,813 --> 00:19:15,413 Speaker 2: deny that. Now. Same with Australia and the state of Victoria. 239 00:19:15,693 --> 00:19:18,853 Speaker 2: There was a race between the government in Victoria and 240 00:19:18,893 --> 00:19:21,053 Speaker 2: the government New Zealand to see who could be the biggest, 241 00:19:21,453 --> 00:19:25,413 Speaker 2: the biggest tyrant. But it's for another day. That would 242 00:19:25,413 --> 00:19:28,733 Speaker 2: make an interesting detail. In fact, I might even send 243 00:19:28,773 --> 00:19:31,653 Speaker 2: you something to show you what it was like. But 244 00:19:31,773 --> 00:19:36,093 Speaker 2: it was it's recognized as being as bad as I've 245 00:19:36,093 --> 00:19:41,893 Speaker 2: got anywhere in the world. Amazingly. I hope I just 246 00:19:41,933 --> 00:19:45,173 Speaker 2: live in hope that the population of New Zealand has 247 00:19:45,933 --> 00:19:49,053 Speaker 2: learned a lesson from it. Now, if we turn our 248 00:19:49,053 --> 00:19:53,133 Speaker 2: attention to the election that you've just had, we don't 249 00:19:53,173 --> 00:19:56,853 Speaker 2: have to spend too long on it. But it was 250 00:19:56,853 --> 00:19:57,773 Speaker 2: a mess, was it not. 251 00:19:59,093 --> 00:20:02,533 Speaker 3: I'd say it was one of the most interesting cases 252 00:20:02,773 --> 00:20:07,533 Speaker 3: in recent elections because in a way we had all 253 00:20:07,573 --> 00:20:16,173 Speaker 3: the problems the pandemic forward basically between the urban and 254 00:20:16,253 --> 00:20:22,773 Speaker 3: the non urban. It was a case of international interference. 255 00:20:23,093 --> 00:20:27,213 Speaker 3: And I am not saying only Russian because it's an 256 00:20:27,413 --> 00:20:32,573 Speaker 3: only Russian interference. Again, all major powers are taking their 257 00:20:32,613 --> 00:20:37,253 Speaker 3: share when they see a fertial ground to promote and 258 00:20:37,573 --> 00:20:41,973 Speaker 3: influence the public, and that was the case in our 259 00:20:42,053 --> 00:20:46,733 Speaker 3: election season. And it was also a pointing case on 260 00:20:46,853 --> 00:20:52,453 Speaker 3: how institutions are failing to provide trust to the basic 261 00:20:52,533 --> 00:20:56,973 Speaker 3: trust for the population, because the result actually pointed out 262 00:20:57,813 --> 00:21:04,413 Speaker 3: that there was the population basically challenging the mainstream, but 263 00:21:04,573 --> 00:21:09,333 Speaker 3: at the same time challenging the whole system, saying that 264 00:21:10,613 --> 00:21:16,133 Speaker 3: we no longer trust the system that was built starting 265 00:21:16,293 --> 00:21:22,253 Speaker 3: nineteen nineties and we want something different. We don't really 266 00:21:22,333 --> 00:21:26,853 Speaker 3: care how that different looks like and while we are 267 00:21:27,093 --> 00:21:33,693 Speaker 3: still very much trustful into the Western world which means NATO, 268 00:21:34,053 --> 00:21:39,773 Speaker 3: US EU, we want to challenge how things are done internally, 269 00:21:41,253 --> 00:21:47,413 Speaker 3: and that I believe is actually one major result of 270 00:21:47,453 --> 00:21:53,733 Speaker 3: the last five plus years in Romania, with the pandemic included. 271 00:21:54,773 --> 00:21:59,573 Speaker 3: I mean, that's that's how I read it right now, 272 00:22:00,373 --> 00:22:03,053 Speaker 3: and I believe that in the next two years, if 273 00:22:03,173 --> 00:22:11,133 Speaker 3: nothing will be done with reference to restructure, showing change 274 00:22:11,173 --> 00:22:16,973 Speaker 3: and so on that the population has voted for, then 275 00:22:17,093 --> 00:22:21,773 Speaker 3: we might have a case where the so called sovereignist 276 00:22:22,093 --> 00:22:26,773 Speaker 3: populist parties are getting full control in parliament. Because we 277 00:22:27,733 --> 00:22:33,453 Speaker 3: have parliamentarian elections in almost three years coming up, so 278 00:22:33,493 --> 00:22:34,693 Speaker 3: we're getting into the campaign. 279 00:22:35,333 --> 00:22:39,173 Speaker 2: Give me a short profile of Nikosa dam who is 280 00:22:39,213 --> 00:22:40,053 Speaker 2: the new president. 281 00:22:41,213 --> 00:22:45,093 Speaker 3: So the new president is an independent, it's coming from 282 00:22:45,093 --> 00:22:51,653 Speaker 3: the independent branch of politics and so called pro European 283 00:22:51,733 --> 00:22:57,733 Speaker 3: populist branch, and many here would challenge me by saying populist, 284 00:22:58,813 --> 00:23:04,893 Speaker 3: but bottom line, it is the Union for Saving Roumania, 285 00:23:05,093 --> 00:23:10,813 Speaker 3: which is his brainchild, that has been the first serious 286 00:23:10,853 --> 00:23:16,853 Speaker 3: populist party in Romania and has campaigned against the mainstream 287 00:23:16,933 --> 00:23:21,973 Speaker 3: parties here, basically saying that the system is not working, 288 00:23:22,053 --> 00:23:25,893 Speaker 3: the system is corrupt. We need to have something different, 289 00:23:26,453 --> 00:23:31,013 Speaker 3: without necessarily naming what that's something different would look like. 290 00:23:32,013 --> 00:23:36,453 Speaker 3: So he was not a member and did not stay 291 00:23:37,013 --> 00:23:42,893 Speaker 3: on as a member of the party, and he basically 292 00:23:43,053 --> 00:23:48,693 Speaker 3: went into the election season as an independent because his 293 00:23:49,693 --> 00:23:56,013 Speaker 3: former party had its own candidate, and therefore got in 294 00:23:56,733 --> 00:24:02,093 Speaker 3: and got elected on this populist platform of I as 295 00:24:02,293 --> 00:24:09,413 Speaker 3: a person as an independent, want to really support the change, 296 00:24:09,693 --> 00:24:13,853 Speaker 3: want to really come forward with the change, and I 297 00:24:13,893 --> 00:24:18,053 Speaker 3: am a pro European. This was his main feature. 298 00:24:18,373 --> 00:24:23,653 Speaker 2: If you will, sorry, you sign your pro European or he. 299 00:24:23,493 --> 00:24:29,213 Speaker 3: Was, he was pro European, So he is pro European. 300 00:24:29,253 --> 00:24:36,093 Speaker 3: That's that's his main campaign promise, which means basically, I 301 00:24:36,133 --> 00:24:41,973 Speaker 3: am a supporter of the EU. I have been educated 302 00:24:42,493 --> 00:24:46,733 Speaker 3: in the EU style. I have been educated in France. 303 00:24:47,253 --> 00:24:52,813 Speaker 3: So he's a former not national international Olympic in mathematics. 304 00:24:53,693 --> 00:24:59,493 Speaker 3: I studied in Paris for his PhD. So his profile 305 00:24:59,653 --> 00:25:04,533 Speaker 3: is that of an intellectual that is coming from the 306 00:25:05,053 --> 00:25:10,693 Speaker 3: European class of intellectuals, but at the same time is 307 00:25:10,893 --> 00:25:17,093 Speaker 3: challenging how things are being done in Romanian politics and 308 00:25:16,493 --> 00:25:21,093 Speaker 3: has been doing that for the last ten plus years 309 00:25:21,853 --> 00:25:25,733 Speaker 3: as a former mayor of Bucharest now and as the 310 00:25:25,813 --> 00:25:31,453 Speaker 3: founder of this pro European populist party that I've talked about. 311 00:25:32,533 --> 00:25:36,293 Speaker 2: So back on May eleven, you published fault Lines in 312 00:25:36,333 --> 00:25:42,373 Speaker 2: the East, Romania's political transformation, in Europe's Future and Analysis. 313 00:25:42,133 --> 00:25:45,693 Speaker 2: Here's a quote from it. The outcome will influence not 314 00:25:45,733 --> 00:25:49,613 Speaker 2: only Romania's governance and regional stability, but also the EU's 315 00:25:49,733 --> 00:25:56,133 Speaker 2: Eastern cohesion, particularly in Moldova and Poland, as nationalist populist 316 00:25:56,293 --> 00:26:00,493 Speaker 2: rhetoric gains traction across Europe during a period of geopolitical 317 00:26:00,653 --> 00:26:06,253 Speaker 2: uncertainty and democratic fragility. That sounds very insecure. 318 00:26:07,293 --> 00:26:12,493 Speaker 3: Well, it is in secure, not only because this is 319 00:26:12,573 --> 00:26:16,693 Speaker 3: fertile ground for this information and whatnot, but this is 320 00:26:16,733 --> 00:26:22,533 Speaker 3: also fertile ground for political instability. The economics are not 321 00:26:22,733 --> 00:26:28,813 Speaker 3: very stable, obviously, and this is partly an effect of 322 00:26:28,853 --> 00:26:32,333 Speaker 3: the pandemic, but also partly an aspect of the fact 323 00:26:32,373 --> 00:26:38,173 Speaker 3: that these countries have been the most emerging economies of Europe. 324 00:26:38,213 --> 00:26:42,973 Speaker 3: So in a sense they needed the stability of Western 325 00:26:43,013 --> 00:26:47,573 Speaker 3: Europe to thrive, but did not have that during the 326 00:26:47,653 --> 00:26:51,853 Speaker 3: last ten years. So there was this idea of what 327 00:26:51,893 --> 00:26:56,253 Speaker 3: do we do next? Considering all these trade wars, all 328 00:26:56,333 --> 00:27:01,733 Speaker 3: these elements of instability that are threatening the life of 329 00:27:01,813 --> 00:27:06,413 Speaker 3: what we observe to be our foundation of growth and 330 00:27:06,493 --> 00:27:11,413 Speaker 3: even our model development, which is the West in its entirety. 331 00:27:12,533 --> 00:27:16,413 Speaker 3: And at the same time we are on the borderline, 332 00:27:17,053 --> 00:27:22,653 Speaker 3: and therefore from the Baltic Sea to Romania you have 333 00:27:22,813 --> 00:27:28,493 Speaker 3: societies that are coming to accept their role on the borderline, 334 00:27:28,533 --> 00:27:37,013 Speaker 3: which also means military engagement or potential military engagement with Russia. 335 00:27:37,373 --> 00:27:41,613 Speaker 3: That's the common threat. And at the same time they 336 00:27:41,773 --> 00:27:45,373 Speaker 3: do not necessarily have an anchor anymore. And I'm not 337 00:27:45,973 --> 00:27:49,613 Speaker 3: only referring to the US as an anchor, but I'm 338 00:27:49,653 --> 00:27:52,653 Speaker 3: also referring to the European Union as an anchor in 339 00:27:52,733 --> 00:28:00,133 Speaker 3: their case, where they're observing the EU having to deal 340 00:28:00,213 --> 00:28:04,693 Speaker 3: with its own problems, with the Eurozone in particular, having 341 00:28:04,733 --> 00:28:08,933 Speaker 3: to deal with its own problems, and states that our 342 00:28:09,053 --> 00:28:15,213 Speaker 3: member states of the EU no longer longer being, at 343 00:28:15,333 --> 00:28:23,093 Speaker 3: least in their declarations, not even being united, not exerting 344 00:28:23,173 --> 00:28:28,733 Speaker 3: themselves as a united front anymore, but getting more nationalistic, 345 00:28:29,493 --> 00:28:33,773 Speaker 3: getting more focused on their own internal problems, which is natural. 346 00:28:34,173 --> 00:28:39,573 Speaker 3: But this gets to be discussed in the Eastern European 347 00:28:40,133 --> 00:28:44,573 Speaker 3: countries as so what do we do next. We fear Russia. 348 00:28:45,213 --> 00:28:49,133 Speaker 3: We do not know exactly what future lies for us 349 00:28:49,493 --> 00:28:55,053 Speaker 3: in the European Union, and therefore there is some hope 350 00:28:55,573 --> 00:29:00,293 Speaker 3: that the European Union could act somehow, but at the 351 00:29:00,373 --> 00:29:05,053 Speaker 3: same time we don't know if that's the possibility. So 352 00:29:05,373 --> 00:29:09,733 Speaker 3: that's where the insecurity comes from. And we've seen this 353 00:29:10,333 --> 00:29:17,173 Speaker 3: during the last elections in Poland, where the conservative candidate 354 00:29:17,813 --> 00:29:23,053 Speaker 3: won basically saying well, we need a balance. The population 355 00:29:23,253 --> 00:29:25,813 Speaker 3: send the message of we need a balance. We need 356 00:29:26,093 --> 00:29:30,893 Speaker 3: to make sure that we sustain our traditions, that we 357 00:29:31,893 --> 00:29:37,253 Speaker 3: keep our boundaries with regards to everything that the EU 358 00:29:37,453 --> 00:29:41,773 Speaker 3: pushes us to do. And in a sense, because we 359 00:29:41,813 --> 00:29:45,573 Speaker 3: are also talking about internal politics in the case of Poland, 360 00:29:46,213 --> 00:29:51,253 Speaker 3: keep a balance between the pro German, pro European camp, 361 00:29:51,373 --> 00:29:55,173 Speaker 3: which is led by the current Prime Minister and his party, 362 00:29:56,013 --> 00:30:01,373 Speaker 3: and a balance to the pro American camp, which is 363 00:30:01,493 --> 00:30:05,573 Speaker 3: led by Navrowski, the current president. Now there is also 364 00:30:05,613 --> 00:30:09,613 Speaker 3: an issue of Trumpism, and I don't I don't know 365 00:30:09,653 --> 00:30:13,293 Speaker 3: if we want to get into this because obviously the 366 00:30:13,333 --> 00:30:18,413 Speaker 3: American influence here is also getting in through the new 367 00:30:18,573 --> 00:30:21,413 Speaker 3: kind of politics and the new kind of campaigning that 368 00:30:23,773 --> 00:30:28,053 Speaker 3: the US has been dealing with, and Trump has been 369 00:30:28,173 --> 00:30:30,813 Speaker 3: pushing as a new style of politics, as a new 370 00:30:30,853 --> 00:30:35,453 Speaker 3: style of diplomacy, and this all is kind of influencing 371 00:30:36,093 --> 00:30:36,613 Speaker 3: the debate. 372 00:30:37,333 --> 00:30:40,053 Speaker 2: So the battle for Poland is not over. 373 00:30:41,693 --> 00:30:50,493 Speaker 3: I don't think so. I believe that Poland is still 374 00:30:51,053 --> 00:30:55,653 Speaker 3: trying to discover itself. There are many that are making 375 00:30:55,693 --> 00:31:00,693 Speaker 3: analogies to the past and are pointing out the historical 376 00:31:00,813 --> 00:31:06,333 Speaker 3: cycles for Poland, and some are even pointing to the 377 00:31:06,373 --> 00:31:10,693 Speaker 3: way Poland looked like in the thirties, which is, you know, 378 00:31:10,813 --> 00:31:18,613 Speaker 3: the same is said about Romania. However, I don't think, well, 379 00:31:18,693 --> 00:31:22,773 Speaker 3: history repeats itself, obviously, but the shape of that repetition 380 00:31:22,933 --> 00:31:27,533 Speaker 3: is different. So I believe that right now we're living 381 00:31:27,613 --> 00:31:32,733 Speaker 3: in a more complex world and the battle, the so 382 00:31:32,933 --> 00:31:37,293 Speaker 3: called battle between East and West, is also a battle 383 00:31:37,533 --> 00:31:44,093 Speaker 3: about what kind of Poland does the population really want 384 00:31:44,173 --> 00:31:45,973 Speaker 3: to have? What? 385 00:31:46,253 --> 00:31:49,893 Speaker 2: And if i'm if I might, how do you how 386 00:31:49,893 --> 00:31:55,133 Speaker 2: do you pronounce his name? No, Rocky Navarovsky, Noosky. 387 00:31:55,653 --> 00:32:02,093 Speaker 3: Yea Navarrovsky, It's I don't know. The W comes as 388 00:32:02,133 --> 00:32:06,693 Speaker 3: a V. From what I've learned from the Polish to V. 389 00:32:11,293 --> 00:32:14,133 Speaker 2: Since is what win? And I'm quoting not from you, 390 00:32:14,173 --> 00:32:18,653 Speaker 2: but from Michael Cram's if that means anything. Commentators of 391 00:32:18,693 --> 00:32:21,493 Speaker 2: all stripes have been eager to pigeonhole the election as 392 00:32:21,493 --> 00:32:23,973 Speaker 2: a win for Russia or as the nail in the 393 00:32:24,013 --> 00:32:27,973 Speaker 2: coffin of Poland's warm relationship with Ukraine. In truth, it's 394 00:32:28,013 --> 00:32:31,533 Speaker 2: none of those things. Politics here, certain is never so simple. 395 00:32:32,333 --> 00:32:35,453 Speaker 2: The raise a thin margin of Sunday's election, and indeed 396 00:32:35,493 --> 00:32:38,653 Speaker 2: the divided, hamstrung government that has existed here for the 397 00:32:38,693 --> 00:32:42,413 Speaker 2: last thirteen months is emblematic of a deeper fight about 398 00:32:42,413 --> 00:32:45,453 Speaker 2: the nature of Polish identity in the twenty first century. 399 00:32:45,973 --> 00:32:49,693 Speaker 2: And there's a quote, if I might, because I like it, 400 00:32:49,853 --> 00:32:53,973 Speaker 2: from somebody who back in the twenties made the comment 401 00:32:54,013 --> 00:32:57,813 Speaker 2: that most beloved state of the Polish people is in decision, 402 00:32:58,253 --> 00:32:59,813 Speaker 2: which seems to fit what you were saying. 403 00:33:00,773 --> 00:33:05,813 Speaker 3: M Yeah, indeed, and I think the question mark is 404 00:33:05,853 --> 00:33:12,933 Speaker 3: not about has went, but about the extreme right, and 405 00:33:12,973 --> 00:33:18,573 Speaker 3: I really mean the extreme right Confederatia in Poland and 406 00:33:18,613 --> 00:33:23,733 Speaker 3: how that goes, because right now the Conservative Party has 407 00:33:23,813 --> 00:33:27,173 Speaker 3: won this vote, but it is the first time that 408 00:33:27,373 --> 00:33:33,013 Speaker 3: the Conservatives and Nabrovski has done an understanding on some 409 00:33:33,373 --> 00:33:37,653 Speaker 3: of the major points regarding what needs to be kept 410 00:33:38,133 --> 00:33:46,213 Speaker 3: for the constitutional justice institutions and the courts basically in Poland, 411 00:33:46,413 --> 00:33:52,133 Speaker 3: and some constitutional rights and you know, the abortion and 412 00:33:52,213 --> 00:33:56,253 Speaker 3: all that stuff. But those are bullet points coming from 413 00:33:56,293 --> 00:34:01,373 Speaker 3: the so called Tarun Declaration that he signed together with 414 00:34:01,453 --> 00:34:07,293 Speaker 3: the candidate of Confderderatia, and Confederatia is the very extreme 415 00:34:07,413 --> 00:34:15,893 Speaker 3: right party which has indeed the flavor of the very nationalistic, 416 00:34:16,173 --> 00:34:23,133 Speaker 3: sometimes very pro Russian in declaration. And one thing, and 417 00:34:23,293 --> 00:34:26,613 Speaker 3: this is an important footnote that I'd like to to 418 00:34:26,693 --> 00:34:31,893 Speaker 3: insert here. In Poland and in Romania both and in 419 00:34:32,053 --> 00:34:37,653 Speaker 3: Eastern European states, there are no such thing of pro 420 00:34:37,773 --> 00:34:43,373 Speaker 3: Russian candidates because the population is anti Russian, so you 421 00:34:43,453 --> 00:34:49,493 Speaker 3: cannot be a full pro Russian candidate. The narratives that 422 00:34:49,533 --> 00:34:54,893 Speaker 3: you take may be influenced by Russia, and the politicians 423 00:34:54,933 --> 00:35:00,733 Speaker 3: are sometimes very much tied to Russia through previous engagements 424 00:35:01,093 --> 00:35:05,093 Speaker 3: because these have been former satellites and therefore they still 425 00:35:05,173 --> 00:35:09,933 Speaker 3: have ways to get to the politicians, influence them through 426 00:35:09,973 --> 00:35:16,173 Speaker 3: money or through other engagements. So they don't look straightforward 427 00:35:17,693 --> 00:35:21,013 Speaker 3: to the so called pro Russian electorate. Because there is 428 00:35:21,053 --> 00:35:23,973 Speaker 3: no such thing, no one would be elected here if 429 00:35:24,013 --> 00:35:28,293 Speaker 3: they say openly I'm pro Russian, but they would be 430 00:35:28,333 --> 00:35:32,933 Speaker 3: elected if they would go with anti Ukrainian narratives or 431 00:35:33,893 --> 00:35:38,093 Speaker 3: anti European Union narratives or anti American narratives at times, 432 00:35:38,173 --> 00:35:44,453 Speaker 3: or anti NATO narratives, which is more complex in a way, 433 00:35:45,133 --> 00:35:51,093 Speaker 3: but better for Russia to get their individuals. They are 434 00:35:51,093 --> 00:35:55,093 Speaker 3: political players in So that's that's one important footnote. And 435 00:35:55,173 --> 00:35:59,493 Speaker 3: for Confederatia to get back to the Polish election, this 436 00:35:59,693 --> 00:36:03,653 Speaker 3: is exactly it. I mean, the question is how will 437 00:36:04,813 --> 00:36:08,973 Speaker 3: the Conservatives, which are traditionally a pro American party in 438 00:36:09,053 --> 00:36:13,733 Speaker 3: Poland and are not necessarily against EU, but they want 439 00:36:13,773 --> 00:36:17,693 Speaker 3: a more, let's say, a better voice for Poland within 440 00:36:17,773 --> 00:36:23,173 Speaker 3: the EU. How will they manage a partnership that they've 441 00:36:23,573 --> 00:36:28,773 Speaker 3: enforced by signing the Starun Declaration with a very extreme 442 00:36:28,853 --> 00:36:33,613 Speaker 3: right party which is against the EU and has narratives 443 00:36:33,653 --> 00:36:37,133 Speaker 3: that go against the American interest as well. So that's 444 00:36:37,253 --> 00:36:39,013 Speaker 3: that's the question for the coming years. 445 00:36:39,093 --> 00:36:43,173 Speaker 2: I think you mentioned a month ago you mentioned foreign policy. 446 00:36:43,613 --> 00:36:47,813 Speaker 2: What is the what is the influence of Romanian foreign 447 00:36:47,893 --> 00:36:50,093 Speaker 2: policy in Europe? 448 00:36:50,893 --> 00:36:57,933 Speaker 3: Well, that's a very good question. Romania has managed to 449 00:36:58,333 --> 00:37:02,613 Speaker 3: get countries like France and Germany to acknowledge the Black 450 00:37:02,693 --> 00:37:09,653 Speaker 3: Sea as an important geopolitical note, but only Recentlyanian foreign 451 00:37:09,693 --> 00:37:15,653 Speaker 3: policy has been in a sense adaptive to the larger players. 452 00:37:16,333 --> 00:37:21,133 Speaker 3: It has worked together with Poland to acknowledge the Eastern 453 00:37:21,213 --> 00:37:27,053 Speaker 3: European risks for the European Union, and it has worked 454 00:37:27,053 --> 00:37:32,973 Speaker 3: together with Poland even in NATO as the strategic partners 455 00:37:33,053 --> 00:37:37,733 Speaker 3: that want to get the US closer to the eastern border, 456 00:37:38,573 --> 00:37:42,533 Speaker 3: but has not been very vocal. Romania has started to 457 00:37:42,613 --> 00:37:47,093 Speaker 3: be vocal only recently, and by recently I mean during 458 00:37:47,133 --> 00:37:53,013 Speaker 3: the last one year, one year and a half, very 459 00:37:53,053 --> 00:37:58,053 Speaker 3: recent also because it was fearful of Russia, and Romania 460 00:37:58,093 --> 00:38:03,093 Speaker 3: I think is likely the most fearful country of Russia, 461 00:38:03,173 --> 00:38:08,333 Speaker 3: considering Russia is on its border and it sees Russia 462 00:38:08,533 --> 00:38:13,533 Speaker 3: has still a mighty threat to its security, and considering this, 463 00:38:15,293 --> 00:38:22,213 Speaker 3: the foreign policy push was mainly to get allies from 464 00:38:22,253 --> 00:38:27,253 Speaker 3: the European Union, from NATO, to get the US together 465 00:38:27,613 --> 00:38:34,573 Speaker 3: with others to push forward elements that would secure its borders, 466 00:38:34,613 --> 00:38:40,773 Speaker 3: but never alone. So Romania has not ever been like Poland, 467 00:38:40,813 --> 00:38:43,533 Speaker 3: for instance, I want this and I will fight for 468 00:38:43,573 --> 00:38:48,013 Speaker 3: it with regards to its foreign policy, because it thought 469 00:38:48,253 --> 00:38:53,293 Speaker 3: always that that kind of attitude would have attached to 470 00:38:53,333 --> 00:38:56,573 Speaker 3: it a risk that it cannot bear, it cannot solve. 471 00:38:57,053 --> 00:39:03,053 Speaker 3: That's a more let's say shy adaptive and a posture 472 00:39:03,213 --> 00:39:08,173 Speaker 3: that is likely due to the geographical position I mean 473 00:39:08,453 --> 00:39:11,973 Speaker 3: regards multiple fronts. It is the Black Sea is the 474 00:39:11,973 --> 00:39:16,333 Speaker 3: most important in terms of Russian threat, but at the 475 00:39:16,373 --> 00:39:22,053 Speaker 3: same time the Western Balkans, and it sees that region 476 00:39:22,173 --> 00:39:26,773 Speaker 3: only as a challenging region and something that you need 477 00:39:26,813 --> 00:39:32,173 Speaker 3: to be aware of. And that's why the adaptive stands. 478 00:39:32,253 --> 00:39:36,853 Speaker 2: Okay, now the importance of the Black Sea, which country 479 00:39:37,373 --> 00:39:40,453 Speaker 2: would you say has the I mean, nobody owns it, 480 00:39:40,493 --> 00:39:43,453 Speaker 2: but which country has the right to the greater claim? 481 00:39:43,533 --> 00:39:43,973 Speaker 2: Do you think? 482 00:39:44,733 --> 00:39:45,013 Speaker 4: Well? 483 00:39:45,933 --> 00:39:50,493 Speaker 3: I would say that in history we had the greater 484 00:39:50,653 --> 00:39:55,533 Speaker 3: claims coming from Russia or Turkey through you know, Ottoman 485 00:39:55,573 --> 00:40:00,253 Speaker 3: Empire or the Russian taurist To empires and so on. 486 00:40:01,373 --> 00:40:05,893 Speaker 3: Right now we have the risk of the country of 487 00:40:05,973 --> 00:40:11,853 Speaker 3: the Sea becoming split, I think that's the best word 488 00:40:11,893 --> 00:40:16,853 Speaker 3: to use, split between Russia and Turkey in terms of 489 00:40:17,733 --> 00:40:22,133 Speaker 3: economic zones, but also in terms of influence and the 490 00:40:22,213 --> 00:40:28,493 Speaker 3: push of Romania is basically to maintain Turkey and Bulgaria, 491 00:40:28,613 --> 00:40:35,133 Speaker 3: but especially Turkey involved in the security of the Black Sea, 492 00:40:35,413 --> 00:40:42,293 Speaker 3: to make certain that there is always a counterbalance to 493 00:40:42,373 --> 00:40:46,733 Speaker 3: the Russian influence and that Turkey and Russia did not 494 00:40:46,933 --> 00:40:51,053 Speaker 3: get to an understanding of sorts, which is not impossible 495 00:40:51,213 --> 00:40:56,693 Speaker 3: historically speaking. Now also with regards to the Black Sea, 496 00:40:56,733 --> 00:41:01,893 Speaker 3: to make things more complicated. When Crimea became independent, we 497 00:41:02,613 --> 00:41:06,813 Speaker 3: in Romania were very much happy, even if there were 498 00:41:06,853 --> 00:41:10,893 Speaker 3: conflicts around islands and whatnot, but we were very much 499 00:41:10,933 --> 00:41:16,613 Speaker 3: happy because Russia's posture was pushed away. So in a 500 00:41:16,693 --> 00:41:21,173 Speaker 3: sense there was this new state that was taking a 501 00:41:21,293 --> 00:41:25,213 Speaker 3: chunk of the Russian of the former USSR, part of 502 00:41:25,293 --> 00:41:28,053 Speaker 3: the Black Sea, because the Black Sea is a closed 503 00:41:28,493 --> 00:41:33,253 Speaker 3: sea and therefore without having international waters, you always have 504 00:41:33,333 --> 00:41:38,253 Speaker 3: to deal with neighbors, which is why for Romania wasn't happy. 505 00:41:38,693 --> 00:41:42,173 Speaker 3: The moment that Ukraine took part of the USSR, the 506 00:41:42,173 --> 00:41:45,653 Speaker 3: former USSR part, that was a happy time considering we 507 00:41:45,653 --> 00:41:48,813 Speaker 3: were no longer bordering the USSR, but we were bordering 508 00:41:49,533 --> 00:41:56,373 Speaker 3: Ukraine now. With Crimea being taken over Sins twenty fourteen, 509 00:41:56,613 --> 00:42:00,213 Speaker 3: Romania got to be on the border with Russia again, 510 00:42:00,373 --> 00:42:04,533 Speaker 3: which is you know, the main question mark is whether 511 00:42:05,413 --> 00:42:09,893 Speaker 3: Russia will come closer, and one could Russia do from 512 00:42:09,933 --> 00:42:16,533 Speaker 3: the facto position that it holds now that Crimea is 513 00:42:16,613 --> 00:42:22,733 Speaker 3: basically covering a big part of more than half of 514 00:42:22,773 --> 00:42:28,253 Speaker 3: what Ukraine held previously. So that's where we stand right now, 515 00:42:28,533 --> 00:42:31,893 Speaker 3: and that's why Romania is also very much supportive of 516 00:42:32,093 --> 00:42:36,973 Speaker 3: Ukraine getting back its share of the Black Sea, because 517 00:42:36,973 --> 00:42:41,173 Speaker 3: that basically means that we are going to be bordering 518 00:42:41,293 --> 00:42:43,453 Speaker 3: Ukraine again and not Russia. 519 00:42:43,533 --> 00:42:49,933 Speaker 2: So let's target something very local as far as the 520 00:42:50,013 --> 00:42:54,533 Speaker 2: area is concerned, the Russians. The Russians took a place 521 00:42:54,573 --> 00:42:57,573 Speaker 2: called Snake Island back in February of twenty two. When 522 00:42:57,613 --> 00:42:59,213 Speaker 2: they do I think it was on the first day 523 00:42:59,213 --> 00:43:03,653 Speaker 2: that they went berserk, but more recently it has fallen 524 00:43:03,693 --> 00:43:08,933 Speaker 2: back into Ukraine's hands. Is that significant by talking about 525 00:43:08,973 --> 00:43:12,533 Speaker 2: a forty six acre rocky outcrop here, does that have 526 00:43:12,573 --> 00:43:14,053 Speaker 2: any significance? Do you think? 527 00:43:15,693 --> 00:43:15,893 Speaker 4: Well? 528 00:43:16,053 --> 00:43:21,373 Speaker 3: But certainly for the region and certainly for Romania that 529 00:43:21,373 --> 00:43:26,013 Speaker 3: that is important because the Snake Island basically makes it 530 00:43:26,413 --> 00:43:30,733 Speaker 3: taking Russia. Taking the Snake Island basically made impossible for 531 00:43:30,973 --> 00:43:37,173 Speaker 3: Ukraine to continue trading through the Black Sea. So if 532 00:43:37,733 --> 00:43:40,813 Speaker 3: you're looking at the map, the Snake Island is very 533 00:43:40,933 --> 00:43:47,733 Speaker 3: very close to Romani, I'm shure, and it basically if 534 00:43:47,773 --> 00:43:51,133 Speaker 3: you cross from the Snake Island to Crimea, if you 535 00:43:51,413 --> 00:43:55,813 Speaker 3: just draw a line on the map, you're basically having 536 00:43:56,293 --> 00:44:01,493 Speaker 3: the coast of Ukraine completely off the charts of the 537 00:44:01,533 --> 00:44:08,533 Speaker 3: Black Sea, and that territory being taken meant that you 538 00:44:08,733 --> 00:44:13,893 Speaker 3: basically have no way you as Ukraine, have no way 539 00:44:13,973 --> 00:44:20,293 Speaker 3: to protect your coastline. That's why Ukraine mined the sea 540 00:44:20,813 --> 00:44:25,693 Speaker 3: and that's why we have both Ukraine Hints and Russians 541 00:44:26,333 --> 00:44:31,333 Speaker 3: dealing with mining operations during those days, because the worst 542 00:44:31,453 --> 00:44:35,933 Speaker 3: fear for Ukraine was that the Russians would get on 543 00:44:35,973 --> 00:44:40,013 Speaker 3: the shore and by taking the coastline would basically take 544 00:44:40,053 --> 00:44:44,093 Speaker 3: the economic lifeline of Ukraine, considering trade was being done 545 00:44:44,213 --> 00:44:48,493 Speaker 3: mostly through the Black Sea, and by keeping the Snake 546 00:44:48,613 --> 00:44:55,573 Speaker 3: Island would have meant that Romania had problems helping Ukraine 547 00:44:55,613 --> 00:45:01,213 Speaker 3: with trade or anything, because that would would have meant 548 00:45:01,493 --> 00:45:06,733 Speaker 3: that Russia is really close to the so called Danube Mouth, 549 00:45:07,333 --> 00:45:12,733 Speaker 3: which is the way out for most of Ukrainian trade today. 550 00:45:13,613 --> 00:45:17,893 Speaker 3: So in other words, that that was a blocking posture, 551 00:45:18,173 --> 00:45:22,893 Speaker 3: and that was strategically a way for Russia to make 552 00:45:22,933 --> 00:45:30,293 Speaker 3: sure that by blocking economic operations of Ukraine will it 553 00:45:30,373 --> 00:45:37,493 Speaker 3: would eventually take over Kiev, even if militarily that would 554 00:45:37,493 --> 00:45:42,893 Speaker 3: have been impossible. In a sense, the economic lifeline being 555 00:45:42,973 --> 00:45:47,573 Speaker 3: cut would have meant that Kiev could eventually fall off. 556 00:45:47,933 --> 00:45:53,093 Speaker 3: Now taking over the Snake Island basically reversed that stance. 557 00:45:53,413 --> 00:45:56,253 Speaker 3: So that's why it was very important that Ukraine managed 558 00:45:56,293 --> 00:45:59,973 Speaker 3: to take back the Snake Island several months after. 559 00:46:00,253 --> 00:46:03,973 Speaker 2: Does that mean it'll become a target for Putin again. 560 00:46:04,293 --> 00:46:09,213 Speaker 3: I don't think so, and it is not at the 561 00:46:09,733 --> 00:46:14,533 Speaker 3: island that is now determined target. And the reason is 562 00:46:15,173 --> 00:46:18,693 Speaker 3: because there there is no naval posture anymore in the 563 00:46:18,733 --> 00:46:23,173 Speaker 3: Black Sea by the Russians, so the Ukrainians managed to 564 00:46:24,253 --> 00:46:31,173 Speaker 3: cut that to almost zero. And at this point I 565 00:46:31,213 --> 00:46:36,373 Speaker 3: think Puddin is looking to the ports of Odessa and 566 00:46:36,653 --> 00:46:42,773 Speaker 3: to generally to the Ukrainian coastline through land operations and 567 00:46:42,893 --> 00:46:47,693 Speaker 3: no longer through sea operations because it has no Russia 568 00:46:47,733 --> 00:46:51,453 Speaker 3: has no capabilities to employ to take back the Snake Island, 569 00:46:51,853 --> 00:46:55,293 Speaker 3: so what it wants is to basically take the coast, 570 00:46:55,773 --> 00:46:59,493 Speaker 3: take the south western coast of Ukraine. And managed to 571 00:46:59,613 --> 00:47:05,853 Speaker 3: come back to a posture where it can effectively control 572 00:47:07,013 --> 00:47:12,253 Speaker 3: all the trade route in the Black Sea that Ukraine has. 573 00:47:12,453 --> 00:47:14,653 Speaker 2: Before we leave the Black Sea, I have a question 574 00:47:14,813 --> 00:47:17,653 Speaker 2: for you. You have been to Odessa. 575 00:47:18,493 --> 00:47:20,333 Speaker 3: I have, but not during wartime. 576 00:47:20,533 --> 00:47:24,133 Speaker 2: No, no, no, no no. I tell you why I asked. 577 00:47:25,213 --> 00:47:29,493 Speaker 2: There was a book that came out on Odessa in 578 00:47:29,533 --> 00:47:33,293 Speaker 2: twenty eleven, written by a fellow called Charles King, and 579 00:47:33,373 --> 00:47:35,453 Speaker 2: on my radio program I made mention to it quite 580 00:47:35,493 --> 00:47:37,453 Speaker 2: a bit at the time because I was fascinated by 581 00:47:37,453 --> 00:47:41,093 Speaker 2: Odessa and I wanted to get there at some stage 582 00:47:41,293 --> 00:47:44,933 Speaker 2: and get to know it. So in twenty fifteen, which 583 00:47:44,973 --> 00:47:47,733 Speaker 2: is ten years ago, we were on a cruise. A 584 00:47:47,773 --> 00:47:50,173 Speaker 2: whole bunch of us from New Zealand were on a 585 00:47:50,173 --> 00:47:54,733 Speaker 2: cruise and it was to do with the anzac centenary, 586 00:47:55,333 --> 00:47:57,853 Speaker 2: and it was announced that we would not be going 587 00:47:58,333 --> 00:48:03,053 Speaker 2: into the Black Sea because it was a developing dangerous time. 588 00:48:03,733 --> 00:48:05,773 Speaker 2: I can't remember exactly what was going on, but it 589 00:48:05,853 --> 00:48:11,053 Speaker 2: was probably something along the time lines that we've been discussing. Uh. 590 00:48:11,093 --> 00:48:13,973 Speaker 2: And so we didn't get to Odessa, and that was 591 00:48:14,053 --> 00:48:17,133 Speaker 2: the one place I wanted to go. And now I 592 00:48:17,213 --> 00:48:22,213 Speaker 2: believe it's not worth going to Why why, in your opinion, 593 00:48:22,293 --> 00:48:26,373 Speaker 2: having been there, was Odessa or is Odessa still hopefully 594 00:48:26,853 --> 00:48:28,053 Speaker 2: such a romantic place. 595 00:48:29,973 --> 00:48:36,453 Speaker 3: Well, because all travelers from north to southeast to west 596 00:48:37,213 --> 00:48:45,573 Speaker 3: have something to do with Odessa. There is almost Roman 597 00:48:45,733 --> 00:48:54,253 Speaker 3: architecture and Italian architecture dominating Goddessa. So this is a 598 00:48:54,333 --> 00:48:57,613 Speaker 3: sort of a hidden place where you would not expect 599 00:48:57,853 --> 00:49:02,253 Speaker 3: to see that kind of architecture, but you're still seeing it. 600 00:49:03,853 --> 00:49:08,493 Speaker 3: There is the domination, the domination, the cultural domination of 601 00:49:09,173 --> 00:49:16,413 Speaker 3: the Italians that have been the world's the the European 602 00:49:16,453 --> 00:49:23,693 Speaker 3: medieval merchants of the time, and that kind of made 603 00:49:23,733 --> 00:49:29,213 Speaker 3: of Odessa a very important strategic port on the Black Sea, 604 00:49:29,253 --> 00:49:35,213 Speaker 3: but also a very interesting cultural port. I don't remember 605 00:49:35,413 --> 00:49:40,813 Speaker 3: now the name of the poet, the Ukrainian poet that 606 00:49:42,613 --> 00:49:47,693 Speaker 3: got to being exiled in Odessa, but there is also 607 00:49:48,093 --> 00:49:55,613 Speaker 3: a fascinating history of how Russian and Ukrainian poets both 608 00:49:56,613 --> 00:50:01,013 Speaker 3: have held Odessa very dear because they were either exiled 609 00:50:01,573 --> 00:50:06,853 Speaker 3: or they were either fascinated by the place and managed 610 00:50:06,893 --> 00:50:10,453 Speaker 3: to stay there for another number of years. So there 611 00:50:10,493 --> 00:50:14,373 Speaker 3: is this romantic approach of Odessa the city of poetry. 612 00:50:14,533 --> 00:50:17,973 Speaker 2: Okay, so there is there is another reason that I've 613 00:50:18,013 --> 00:50:22,373 Speaker 2: just recalled that Edessa is worthy of a little more discussion. 614 00:50:22,973 --> 00:50:29,213 Speaker 2: It was a fairly healthy Jewish city, I believe true, 615 00:50:29,933 --> 00:50:33,613 Speaker 2: and there are some people in New Zealand who have 616 00:50:33,733 --> 00:50:37,893 Speaker 2: his You know, the history comes from Odessa, and I 617 00:50:37,973 --> 00:50:42,293 Speaker 2: just wondered what the attitude to Jews now is. And 618 00:50:42,333 --> 00:50:44,693 Speaker 2: the reason for this is she probably worked out is 619 00:50:44,733 --> 00:50:48,893 Speaker 2: because of what's going on in America and Australia. Not 620 00:50:49,013 --> 00:50:54,293 Speaker 2: so much here, but it's it's there and in other places. 621 00:50:54,373 --> 00:50:59,253 Speaker 2: With regard to the assault on Jewish folk, well, I. 622 00:50:59,213 --> 00:51:03,493 Speaker 3: Will say that Odessa and much of the Ukrainian city 623 00:51:03,573 --> 00:51:08,333 Speaker 3: is a KEYV two that had Jewish communities. Important Jewish 624 00:51:08,373 --> 00:51:13,213 Speaker 3: communities are not having them anymore because of the Soviet 625 00:51:13,373 --> 00:51:21,493 Speaker 3: Union that basically started right after the end of the 626 00:51:21,773 --> 00:51:27,293 Speaker 3: of the Second World War. But that aside, I am 627 00:51:27,453 --> 00:51:32,253 Speaker 3: noticing in places where we did not have any kind 628 00:51:32,293 --> 00:51:41,973 Speaker 3: of discussion before about Israel, in Gaza, about the Middle 629 00:51:42,053 --> 00:51:46,573 Speaker 3: East in general, and about the rise of the Jewish 630 00:51:46,573 --> 00:51:53,253 Speaker 3: community as well, I am noticing elements that are coming alive. 631 00:51:53,573 --> 00:51:55,653 Speaker 3: What do I mean by that? In places like the 632 00:51:55,693 --> 00:52:01,333 Speaker 3: Czech Republic, where you would not see any discussion about 633 00:52:02,013 --> 00:52:05,973 Speaker 3: the Middle East, and that was probably the country that's 634 00:52:06,013 --> 00:52:10,933 Speaker 3: closest to Israel. During the last thirty years, if not 635 00:52:11,133 --> 00:52:15,453 Speaker 3: more well thirty years, because that's basically after the end 636 00:52:15,493 --> 00:52:18,973 Speaker 3: of the Cold War. I have been there recently and 637 00:52:19,173 --> 00:52:26,413 Speaker 3: have witnessed a protest, a pro Palestine protest, and a 638 00:52:26,573 --> 00:52:30,973 Speaker 3: community that was very vocal against Israeli right, and that 639 00:52:31,333 --> 00:52:38,493 Speaker 3: usually means that there is something going on with regards 640 00:52:38,573 --> 00:52:45,013 Speaker 3: to the Jewish community being seen in another kind of light. 641 00:52:45,653 --> 00:52:53,973 Speaker 3: So these elements, these social protests and discussions about the 642 00:52:54,013 --> 00:52:59,453 Speaker 3: Middle East have been very very popular in Western Europe. 643 00:53:00,013 --> 00:53:02,093 Speaker 2: What about in Romania. 644 00:53:01,813 --> 00:53:05,413 Speaker 3: In Eastern Europe you don't see that. And in Romania 645 00:53:05,533 --> 00:53:09,653 Speaker 3: last I think it was last week that I have 646 00:53:09,853 --> 00:53:16,213 Speaker 3: seen people on the streets with pro Palestine cards, and 647 00:53:17,213 --> 00:53:23,333 Speaker 3: right before the elections, even if it wasn't very clear 648 00:53:23,573 --> 00:53:30,373 Speaker 3: which side these protesters were supporting, I mean for the 649 00:53:30,973 --> 00:53:36,013 Speaker 3: Romanian elections. Now, although in Romania the Jewish community is 650 00:53:36,053 --> 00:53:38,773 Speaker 3: a sort of an expat community, right now they are 651 00:53:38,773 --> 00:53:46,413 Speaker 3: coming in for the sides, the former Jewish sides. Romania 652 00:53:46,493 --> 00:53:52,133 Speaker 3: has this history of having the Jews sent back to 653 00:53:52,213 --> 00:53:57,573 Speaker 3: their home country during the communist times. And if you read, 654 00:53:58,813 --> 00:54:04,493 Speaker 3: because we were talking earlier about Robert Kaplan's work, that 655 00:54:04,773 --> 00:54:10,093 Speaker 3: was a big chunk of his discovery in the seventies 656 00:54:11,653 --> 00:54:15,693 Speaker 3: was referring to the way that the communist regime of 657 00:54:16,493 --> 00:54:20,373 Speaker 3: Romania at the time, which was kind of a particular 658 00:54:20,853 --> 00:54:28,133 Speaker 3: totalitarian regime, was trading almost the Jewish community with Israel. 659 00:54:29,173 --> 00:54:35,973 Speaker 3: So there is an ambiguous past which was translated into 660 00:54:36,773 --> 00:54:42,893 Speaker 3: good business and into a community that is very welcomed 661 00:54:43,053 --> 00:54:48,853 Speaker 3: because it does business with Romania. It supports the entrepreneurial spirit. 662 00:54:49,693 --> 00:54:55,013 Speaker 3: So there isn't much talk about the Jewish community per se, 663 00:54:55,773 --> 00:55:00,853 Speaker 3: but there are weird attempts. And by weird attempts, I say, 664 00:55:01,373 --> 00:55:05,813 Speaker 3: these discussions about what happens in the Middle East are 665 00:55:06,053 --> 00:55:10,013 Speaker 3: likely going to lead to some discuss ession with regards 666 00:55:10,013 --> 00:55:13,173 Speaker 3: to the way the Jewish community is being is being 667 00:55:13,253 --> 00:55:17,573 Speaker 3: seen in Romania. Not to mention that not in the 668 00:55:17,653 --> 00:55:23,773 Speaker 3: last round of election, but especially during the the first 669 00:55:23,853 --> 00:55:29,013 Speaker 3: round of election, we had the so called right wing 670 00:55:30,093 --> 00:55:37,293 Speaker 3: historical elements leg you or not, which is our inter 671 00:55:37,493 --> 00:55:45,773 Speaker 3: war let's say, Nazi style of party, which was pretty 672 00:55:46,853 --> 00:55:51,573 Speaker 3: vocal during the first round with George Escu and less 673 00:55:51,693 --> 00:55:56,533 Speaker 3: vocal during the second round was with this pro Russian, 674 00:55:58,173 --> 00:56:04,933 Speaker 3: the so called pro Russian Simeon that ran into the elections. However, 675 00:56:05,653 --> 00:56:11,533 Speaker 3: for me, for my generation, discovering those narratives was a 676 00:56:11,573 --> 00:56:18,013 Speaker 3: total new thing because we were not even aware of 677 00:56:18,333 --> 00:56:22,973 Speaker 3: the kind of narratives the former Nazi party would play 678 00:56:23,173 --> 00:56:27,133 Speaker 3: against the Jewish community at the time. Coming back to 679 00:56:27,253 --> 00:56:32,573 Speaker 3: that now is a major question mark for me as 680 00:56:32,573 --> 00:56:37,253 Speaker 3: an analyst. Why is this happening while we have all 681 00:56:37,293 --> 00:56:41,533 Speaker 3: these good links for the business communities, you know, in 682 00:56:41,613 --> 00:56:47,333 Speaker 3: Israel and Romania both. Why is this happening while there 683 00:56:47,493 --> 00:56:54,773 Speaker 3: was really silence and throughout the Eastern Bloc with regards 684 00:56:54,813 --> 00:56:58,573 Speaker 3: to the Jewish community and in Romania in particular, Why 685 00:56:58,613 --> 00:57:01,813 Speaker 3: do we have all of a sudden a discussion about Gaza, 686 00:57:01,893 --> 00:57:06,573 Speaker 3: about Israel and about the Middle East when I'm not 687 00:57:06,613 --> 00:57:10,973 Speaker 3: saying that we shouldn't, but we did not have such 688 00:57:10,973 --> 00:57:13,093 Speaker 3: a public interest into the matter. 689 00:57:14,853 --> 00:57:17,173 Speaker 2: So before we go, I've got a couple of questions. 690 00:57:17,693 --> 00:57:22,573 Speaker 2: One is, can you recommend a good book on the 691 00:57:22,653 --> 00:57:24,573 Speaker 2: history of Romania. 692 00:57:26,733 --> 00:57:31,293 Speaker 3: I can recommend a few, but readers will not be 693 00:57:31,493 --> 00:57:34,893 Speaker 3: very happy to read academic books, so I will recommend 694 00:57:34,933 --> 00:57:39,933 Speaker 3: the travel and academic and history book. But Robert D. 695 00:57:40,093 --> 00:57:47,293 Speaker 3: Kaplan actually in Europe's shadow. This is after a recent, 696 00:57:47,733 --> 00:57:55,253 Speaker 3: somewhat recent trip to the region in between twenty fourteen 697 00:57:55,693 --> 00:58:04,373 Speaker 3: twenty sixteen, so it should cover also the fears that 698 00:58:04,493 --> 00:58:10,653 Speaker 3: Romania has towards Russia. And as a bonus, the trip 699 00:58:10,773 --> 00:58:14,733 Speaker 3: also covered the Republic of Moldova, so there is also 700 00:58:14,893 --> 00:58:22,933 Speaker 3: a history of relations between Romania, the tensions between Romania 701 00:58:23,053 --> 00:58:26,253 Speaker 3: and Moldova that are covered in the book. And it's 702 00:58:26,293 --> 00:58:28,533 Speaker 3: easy to read and I like it very much. 703 00:58:28,653 --> 00:58:30,933 Speaker 2: That's in Europe Shadow, did you say, by Robert Kaplan. 704 00:58:31,853 --> 00:58:35,733 Speaker 3: Yes. In Europe Shadow by Robert Dick Caplan, Yes, excellent. 705 00:58:36,253 --> 00:58:39,093 Speaker 2: Now the second point is not a question, actually it's 706 00:58:39,133 --> 00:58:41,893 Speaker 2: a statement. I want to clarify something I said that 707 00:58:42,933 --> 00:58:48,293 Speaker 2: I knew people here who emanated from Odessa. I made 708 00:58:48,333 --> 00:58:52,013 Speaker 2: a mistake, so I'm rectifying it now. They didn't. They 709 00:58:52,013 --> 00:58:56,493 Speaker 2: came from Romania, and they're very close friends too, and 710 00:58:56,573 --> 00:59:01,213 Speaker 2: they're just lovely people. But there have been a number 711 00:59:01,293 --> 00:59:05,213 Speaker 2: of Romanians who have settled in New Zealand over the years, 712 00:59:06,053 --> 00:59:10,053 Speaker 2: earlier on really sort of post war that's the Second 713 00:59:10,053 --> 00:59:16,013 Speaker 2: World War, and they've added a great deal to the 714 00:59:16,053 --> 00:59:20,253 Speaker 2: atmosphere of the country. I think Antonia it's been a pleasure. 715 00:59:21,253 --> 00:59:24,213 Speaker 2: I want to thank you very much, and I trust 716 00:59:24,253 --> 00:59:30,253 Speaker 2: that the opportunity will provide itself again to have another discussion. 717 00:59:31,693 --> 00:59:35,413 Speaker 3: Oh, thank you very much, and I hope we will 718 00:59:35,453 --> 00:59:38,893 Speaker 3: have the opportunity to talk more about the region and 719 00:59:38,933 --> 00:59:43,653 Speaker 3: Europe in general, because we have interesting times coming along. 720 00:59:43,733 --> 00:59:47,693 Speaker 3: I think more and more interesting, so we will have 721 00:59:47,733 --> 00:59:48,533 Speaker 3: topics to cover. 722 00:59:48,773 --> 00:59:52,973 Speaker 2: I think you're right, Antonio, and I'll spell it for you. 723 00:59:53,253 --> 00:59:57,013 Speaker 2: Co O l ib A s A n U. 724 00:59:58,693 --> 01:00:00,693 Speaker 3: It's a difficult Romanian name. 725 01:00:00,893 --> 01:00:06,253 Speaker 2: No, not difficult to talk. So thank you, thank you 726 01:00:06,333 --> 01:00:09,133 Speaker 2: once again, and you take care. We'll talk again. 727 01:00:09,533 --> 01:00:12,573 Speaker 3: Thank you very much. You take care to all the best. 728 01:00:13,053 --> 01:00:25,933 Speaker 4: Guy. 729 01:00:27,133 --> 01:00:29,533 Speaker 2: Now, at the risk of repetition, I just make a 730 01:00:29,573 --> 01:00:33,573 Speaker 2: quick reference to the book by Robert V. Kaplan called 731 01:00:33,653 --> 01:00:38,853 Speaker 2: Adriatic single titled Adriatic A Concert of Civilizations at the 732 01:00:39,013 --> 01:00:40,973 Speaker 2: end of the Modern Age. It's been a good writer, 733 01:00:41,653 --> 01:00:44,293 Speaker 2: recommended by the Wall Street Journal, if that makes any difference. 734 01:00:45,533 --> 01:00:50,853 Speaker 2: Robert Caplan also wrote The Revenge of Geography, which again 735 01:00:51,053 --> 01:00:54,733 Speaker 2: is another very informative book. Trust you enjoyed that. We 736 01:00:54,773 --> 01:00:57,973 Speaker 2: shall be back again, of course, with another in the 737 01:00:58,013 --> 01:01:00,573 Speaker 2: summer series of the Best of the Latensmith Podcast of 738 01:01:00,773 --> 01:01:05,573 Speaker 2: twenty twenty five. In the meantime, Merry Christmas, Happy New Year, 739 01:01:06,413 --> 01:01:10,733 Speaker 2: and playshape mm hmmmmmmmmmmm. 740 01:01:15,773 --> 01:01:19,413 Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks at b Listen 741 01:01:19,493 --> 01:01:22,453 Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with 742 01:01:22,573 --> 01:01:25,653 Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio