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Speaker 2: Fifteen years ago, my marriage endsh my whole world completely unraveled,
Speaker 2: and I had to, you know, reframe my future. Breaking
Speaker 2: up is expensive. Women typically are about at least twenty
Speaker 2: percent worse of an end of a relationship can be
Speaker 2: the start of a new beginning. For me, it was
Speaker 2: a time of immense personal growth.
Speaker 3: Cutakoto, I'm Garth Bray and we're doing things just a
Speaker 3: little differently for the next few weeks here on Shared Lunch.
Speaker 3: More Than Money is a special mini series brought to
Speaker 3: you by Chase eas to help you get ready for
Speaker 3: twenty twenty five. The next one is a big one.
Speaker 3: We're speaking with Sarah Cathrell, who's written the book How
Speaker 3: to Break Up Well about surviving divorce and that experience.
Speaker 3: And January is the month we're more than ever Can
Speaker 3: we make that big decision? What sort of impact does
Speaker 3: that have on your wealth and how can you be
Speaker 3: ready for it? First, some important information to consider whenever investing.
Speaker 4: The experience is shared in this episode and not advice
Speaker 4: or a recommendation or opinion by guests to invest or
Speaker 4: act in the manner they have. An appearance on the
Speaker 4: series is not an endorsement by Shares. These of the
Speaker 4: views of the presenters or guests. They're not financial experts,
Speaker 4: and their views of their own.
Speaker 3: Sarah, thanks for giving us some of your time. You
Speaker 3: went through quite a big thing in your own life,
Speaker 3: and you've looked at that very closely to see, I
Speaker 3: guess how it affects loads of people. What have you
Speaker 3: taken from that?
Speaker 2: I'm just to understand that divorce and separation is huge.
Speaker 2: Something like one in four kids live in a house
Speaker 2: with either one parent or they move between two homes
Speaker 2: New Zealand and a lot of families are headed by
Speaker 2: single parents and so on. So I just I was surprised,
Speaker 2: actually how there is this huge community of people out
Speaker 2: there who aren't your typical nuclear mum, dad, two kids,
Speaker 2: but actually quite diverse family relationships.
Speaker 3: And this was something that you went through yourself as well.
Speaker 2: That's right. So fifteen years ago my marriage endish it
Speaker 2: was his decision and I was upended. I mean, we
Speaker 2: had our moments, you know, for the year leading up
Speaker 2: to that, but it was such a shock and so
Speaker 2: at the time, I was working as an editor and
Speaker 2: I had three young children, and I had to my
Speaker 2: whole world completely unraveled and I had to, you know,
Speaker 2: reframe my future. And at the time it was a shock,
Speaker 2: and as I said, you know, I felt like a victim.
Speaker 2: But all these years later, I can say that was
Speaker 2: a good decision. We've co parented well, we've raised our
Speaker 2: daughters in our twenty four, twenty one, and eighteen, and
Speaker 2: we've both repartnered. We're happy, we get on well, and
Speaker 2: we've made it work. And so that's part of my motivation,
Speaker 2: Gath for writing the book that I wanted to share
Speaker 2: what we did a bit of a formula really. I mean,
Speaker 2: I know there's a lot of high conflict breakups and
Speaker 2: so on, but there are some ways to break up well,
Speaker 2: as I outline in my book.
Speaker 3: Yeah, how to Break Up Well, which is quite a
Speaker 3: confronting title because it sort of presumes that there's some
Speaker 3: kind of formula to this or some way to approach it.
Speaker 3: But I guess there are some great lessons for people
Speaker 3: that find themselves in that situation suddenly as well. Is
Speaker 3: that what this is designed to do also to provide
Speaker 3: people that help that they might need when the situation
Speaker 3: is put upon them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's right. I mean there's the practical and
Speaker 2: the emotional side of a breakup and how to break up. Well,
Speaker 2: I think fundamentally, if you've got kids, or even if
Speaker 2: you don't like behave like grown ups, and there are
Speaker 2: ways to mitigate the stress and just to sort of
Speaker 2: almost design the next chapter of your life. A end
Speaker 2: of a relationship can be the start of a new
Speaker 2: beginning and often for me it was a time of
Speaker 2: immense personal growth that so I share that and also
Speaker 2: my mistakes. I spent a bit too much time dating
Speaker 2: and with what I call sad dads and so on,
Speaker 2: and I was a bit of a sad mum. So
Speaker 2: I look sad dad.
Speaker 3: What's a sad dad?
Speaker 2: Sad dad? Yeah, there's the people that haven't really got
Speaker 2: over their breakups and they look to you, you know,
Speaker 2: as you're drinking your glass of pinogree. They want some
Speaker 2: therapy rather than a date. So there was a bit
Speaker 2: of that that went on. But yeah, just to share
Speaker 2: too that often it's great to stay single for a while.
Speaker 2: It's great to find your single self again, that we
Speaker 2: have a society that really celebrates culturally the idea of
Speaker 2: the couple, marriage, coupledom and so. But something like sixteen
Speaker 2: percent of women in New Zealand now I'm not sure
Speaker 2: about the stats for men, sorry, but are single single
Speaker 2: women households? And there are a lot of people out
Speaker 2: there who saying, you know, I choose this way. So
Speaker 2: how you navigate in a society that says we should
Speaker 2: be part of a couple, how you almost stand out
Speaker 2: and claim that space as well? So I write a
Speaker 2: bit about that as well.
Speaker 3: If I think about a breakup, I imagine it's a
Speaker 3: huge financial inflection point, right. What I mean is there's
Speaker 3: the ground shifts massively. You've got assets that you might
Speaker 3: share that are ripped apart that you've got to liquidate,
Speaker 3: long before you ever thought you were going to have to.
Speaker 3: You've got extra costs that are coming in there. It
Speaker 3: must be a very potentially destabilizing thing to go through.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and breaking up is expensive. I mean you've got
Speaker 2: the costs of actually, as you say, if you get
Speaker 2: a lawyer, two thirds of couples do you have to
Speaker 2: pay your legal fees. Then often typically today we still
Speaker 2: have what's known as the motherhood penalty. So the mother
Speaker 2: might have taken time out, been working part time or
Speaker 2: not working at all. And you see, you've had this
Speaker 2: quite often, this quite disparate economic situation, and then mum
Speaker 2: two thirds times mum gets left primarily with the kids.
Speaker 2: She's cost of running two houses. I mean, we have
Speaker 2: a cost of living crisis. You know, two potentially mortgages,
Speaker 2: rent two phone bills to you know, whatever goes on.
Speaker 2: So it's expensive. And in fact, interestingly, there's a new
Speaker 2: term called bird nesting, where couples break up but they
Speaker 2: stay in the same house they are.
Speaker 3: That sounds fraught. I'm going to jump in and say
Speaker 3: burden nesting.
Speaker 2: Tell me all though, they keep the family home and
Speaker 2: they fly in and out, so they take turns with
Speaker 2: the kids and they one of them goes off to
Speaker 2: a flash or staying with mates or whatever. So yeah,
Speaker 2: it's expensive to run two houses. It's interesting garth because
Speaker 2: often in a house, like you know, the man, the
Speaker 2: guy might mow the lawns and be in charge of
Speaker 2: you know, paying them mortgage repayments or whatever, and managing
Speaker 2: the accounts and it's the woman that's like, oh, Johnny's
Speaker 2: going to school camp and filling informs. So these roles
Speaker 2: can become quite demarcated, and what you know, for me,
Speaker 2: I remember just thinking, gosh, I've suddenly got to manage
Speaker 2: not only the kids, but these other roles that used
Speaker 2: to fall to him. So I think it can be
Speaker 2: like learning a bit of a new language. For some people.
Speaker 2: It's not always the woman that's been in that role
Speaker 2: of not being involved, but it can be, you know,
Speaker 2: it just can be for practical reasons as well.
Speaker 3: So it can be a poor where you're not only
Speaker 3: trying to seek economic empowerment, you're actually kind of forced
Speaker 3: to grapple with it yourself because you're running your own life,
Speaker 3: your own business, your own affairs in a way that
Speaker 3: perhaps wasn't the case.
Speaker 2: In my book, I refer to a couple of women
Speaker 2: who's their names weren't even on the properties, you know,
Speaker 2: and they were having to try and get a house valued,
Speaker 2: and it's like, well, sorry, you don't own the house.
Speaker 2: Your ex stuff, and so you know, there's all sorts
Speaker 2: of there's a lot that you don't when you're in
Speaker 2: a relationship, which is part of my mission Garth is
Speaker 2: to actually try and empower or educate women in relationships
Speaker 2: as well, because often you don't know that you're you
Speaker 2: don't have as much economic power in a relationship or
Speaker 2: even an understanding of where the money is and what's
Speaker 2: happening where and do you know what you own? Is
Speaker 2: your name on the property title, on the bank account,
Speaker 2: that kind of thing.
Speaker 3: I'm thinking if if you're in a position or we're
Speaker 3: faced by this kind of situation of divorce and you're
Speaker 3: suddenly having to sell things up and someone and break
Speaker 3: things apart, that must have not just an immediate cost,
Speaker 3: but it's got a wealth effect as well. It must
Speaker 3: change perhaps how wealthy a person you will turn out
Speaker 3: to be unless you make some other changes. What are
Speaker 3: the kind of the wealth effects of separation?
Speaker 2: Huge huge women typically are about at least twenty percent
Speaker 2: worse off after a breakoup, and so it's a shock.
Speaker 2: It can be a financial absolute financial shock. And I
Speaker 2: think that there's also scenarios where you can end up
Speaker 2: in herishing his debt, which is why I'm quite hot
Speaker 2: on the idea of a prenup as well. Basically, under
Speaker 2: a current relationship law, if you've been with someone for
Speaker 2: three years in living in a house together. Then unless
Speaker 2: what you bring into that relationship yourself has got to
Speaker 2: be you've got to sort of say that's mine. You've
Speaker 2: got to ring fence it. And that includes student debt
Speaker 2: or whatever debt that person brings them. So if you
Speaker 2: break up, you could inherit there one hundred thousand dollars
Speaker 2: student a loan as well. So it's an interesting one
Speaker 2: to think. Put it all on the table. What do
Speaker 2: you own and what debts do you have?
Speaker 3: So what does wealth mean to you?
Speaker 2: Wealth to me is actually being healthy and happy. I
Speaker 2: had a little cancer scare last year and I write
Speaker 2: about that in my book, and I being healthy and
Speaker 2: happy is really I mean, obviously I want to pay
Speaker 2: the bills and I want to go on a holiday
Speaker 2: or something like that, but fundamentally I want to live
Speaker 2: a long, healthy life and with the people I love.
Speaker 3: It's a great definition of wealth. Okay, So with all
Speaker 3: of the experience you've had that you've put in this
Speaker 3: book how to break up, Well, what's a really great
Speaker 3: financial decision that you feel you've made?
Speaker 2: Ah, this painting behind me, see, I don't know if
Speaker 2: you could see the road. It's a power morn. So basically,
Speaker 2: after my marriage ended, I had a little bit of
Speaker 2: money left over and after we's blood everything, and I
Speaker 2: bought this artwork and it was it was fourteen years ago,
Speaker 2: and the road seemed to see. I was like, Oh,
Speaker 2: where's that path? The path to the unknown? It sort
Speaker 2: of felt like a metaphor for the next chapter of
Speaker 2: my life.
Speaker 3: For those of us who are just listening rather than watching.
Speaker 3: There's a beautiful calm moorn painting behind Sarah, which depicts
Speaker 3: some garden and full flower with a bright sunlit path
Speaker 3: that's leading you someplace, right yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 2: So I bought this up work and it was cost
Speaker 2: quite a bit at the time, but it's been an investment.
Speaker 2: Every time I look at car mourn on the on
Speaker 2: the optims, I'm like, oh, good one. But also it's
Speaker 2: quite a symbolic piece of art to me, and so
Speaker 2: I do. I have bought a bit of art over
Speaker 2: my time, and it's always been it's been symbolic for me. So,
Speaker 2: my mother passed away from Alzheimer's and I bought this
Speaker 2: beautiful art work and it arrived the day that she died,
Speaker 2: Like I didn't know until that morning, and it arrived.
Speaker 2: It came by career two days early. I don't know,
Speaker 2: so I do. If I have a little bit of
Speaker 2: money anywhere, I like to spend it on meaningful art
Speaker 2: and also on taking my daughters on holiday. I love
Speaker 2: and my partner I love nothing more than us doing
Speaker 2: a bit of travel and having experiences.
Speaker 3: So this is a you're investing in now.
Speaker 2: So investing in the NAUGA. I think that's the thing.
Speaker 2: Like having this experience last year. It just came out
Speaker 2: of the blue, you know, breast cancer all totally fine. Now,
Speaker 2: I say life throws you curve balls and came out
Speaker 2: of the blue. But what it did, it made me
Speaker 2: redefine my living in the now. Of course, you still
Speaker 2: want money put aside for your future and your retirement
Speaker 2: and so on, And in fact, any investment plan I
Speaker 2: have is for the long term. But in terms of
Speaker 2: my day to day, my terms are my life experiences.
Speaker 2: It's about celebrating while I'm healthy and well and mobile,
Speaker 2: you know, just having had that experience. My mother was
Speaker 2: sixty one when she got Alzheimer's and she lived for
Speaker 2: fourteen years with it. It was horrific. And then having
Speaker 2: been unwell myself, I just I'm aware of mortality, but
Speaker 2: not to be dooms you know, doomsday about it, but
Speaker 2: gives you a new perspective.
Speaker 3: So I don't know if you're a New Year's resolution
Speaker 3: kind of a person, but if you were, if you
Speaker 3: were a taskmaster, if you're setting people a challenge for
Speaker 3: how to frame themselves up for success in twenty twenty five,
Speaker 3: and bearing in mind the experiences that you've had and
Speaker 3: what you write about, what do people need to think
Speaker 3: about it over the holiday break.
Speaker 2: I think this is relevant both for people within a
Speaker 2: relationship and out of a relationship. So with someone in
Speaker 2: a relationship, think about your economic power and that relationship.
Speaker 2: Is it equal? It might be that he's off earning
Speaker 2: or she's off earning and you're the one with the kids,
Speaker 2: or you know you're running the domestic the emotional load
Speaker 2: of a household. But do you know where your money is?
Speaker 2: Do you know as your name on the title, is
Speaker 2: your name on the bank accounts? Do you do you
Speaker 2: have a kind of a mutual plan for wealth plan,
Speaker 2: creation plan or saving plan? Understand what's where and when?
Speaker 2: One of the quotes I love in my book Lady
Speaker 2: deb Chambers, who's a she's a marriage she specializes in
Speaker 2: relationship and divorce law, and she says, you might know
Speaker 2: the marry the man you'll marry, but you don't know
Speaker 2: the manual divorce or you know that sort of thing.
Speaker 2: So you've got to really understand. I'm not trying to
Speaker 2: be dooms in blooms because you know, dooming gloom because
Speaker 2: it's started a new year. But think about what, what
Speaker 2: is where and do you know anything? And for those
Speaker 2: also in a relationship, have you signed a prenup? Look,
Speaker 2: I know it's not particularly romantic to you know, steer
Speaker 2: at someone when you're steering at someone's eyes to say, oh,
Speaker 2: we should sign a prenup, but it's really a great
Speaker 2: thing to do, and to say this is mine, this
Speaker 2: is yours, this is ours. Understand, And it's a bit
Speaker 2: like signing an insurance contract or paying your rates, bills
Speaker 2: or whatever you have to do. It's just a task.
Speaker 2: It's really it's not easy to do. I understand that,
Speaker 2: but it's it's it's a great thing and it protects
Speaker 2: both of you as long as it's both signed by
Speaker 2: to both lawyers. It's a great thing to do.
Speaker 3: Now that is going to be quite some summer conversation
Speaker 3: Sarah Catherell, author of How to Break Up Well, thank
Speaker 3: you very much for your time, and for those of
Speaker 3: you who are listening, thank you as well. You're probably
Speaker 3: listening on Apple or on Spotify. If you're watching us
Speaker 3: and you saw that beautiful painting behind Sarah, you'll be
Speaker 3: on YouTube. And if you like what you see, let
Speaker 3: us know and let us know what you'd like to see.
Speaker 3: Thanks very much. That's us at Chersi's More Than Money
Speaker 3: Shared Lunch two.
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