WEBVTT - How to break up well - Sarah Catherall | More Than Money

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<v Speaker 1>There are more ways to wealth with Jairza's save with

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<v Speaker 2>Fifteen years ago, my marriage endsh my whole world completely unraveled,

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<v Speaker 2>and I had to, you know, reframe my future. Breaking

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<v Speaker 2>up is expensive. Women typically are about at least twenty

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<v Speaker 2>percent worse of an end of a relationship can be

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<v Speaker 2>the start of a new beginning. For me, it was

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<v Speaker 2>a time of immense personal growth.

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<v Speaker 3>Cutakoto, I'm Garth Bray and we're doing things just a

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<v Speaker 3>little differently for the next few weeks here on Shared Lunch.

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<v Speaker 3>More Than Money is a special mini series brought to

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<v Speaker 3>you by Chase eas to help you get ready for

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<v Speaker 3>twenty twenty five. The next one is a big one.

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<v Speaker 3>We're speaking with Sarah Cathrell, who's written the book How

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<v Speaker 3>to Break Up Well about surviving divorce and that experience.

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<v Speaker 3>And January is the month we're more than ever Can

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<v Speaker 3>we make that big decision? What sort of impact does

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<v Speaker 3>that have on your wealth and how can you be

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<v Speaker 3>ready for it? First, some important information to consider whenever investing.

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<v Speaker 4>The experience is shared in this episode and not advice

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<v Speaker 4>or a recommendation or opinion by guests to invest or

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<v Speaker 4>act in the manner they have. An appearance on the

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<v Speaker 4>series is not an endorsement by Shares. These of the

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<v Speaker 4>views of the presenters or guests. They're not financial experts,

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<v Speaker 4>and their views of their own.

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<v Speaker 3>Sarah, thanks for giving us some of your time. You

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<v Speaker 3>went through quite a big thing in your own life,

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<v Speaker 3>and you've looked at that very closely to see, I

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<v Speaker 3>guess how it affects loads of people. What have you

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<v Speaker 3>taken from that?

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just to understand that divorce and separation is huge.

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<v Speaker 2>Something like one in four kids live in a house

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<v Speaker 2>with either one parent or they move between two homes

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<v Speaker 2>New Zealand and a lot of families are headed by

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<v Speaker 2>single parents and so on. So I just I was surprised,

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<v Speaker 2>actually how there is this huge community of people out

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<v Speaker 2>there who aren't your typical nuclear mum, dad, two kids,

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<v Speaker 2>but actually quite diverse family relationships.

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<v Speaker 3>And this was something that you went through yourself as well.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right. So fifteen years ago my marriage endish it

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<v Speaker 2>was his decision and I was upended. I mean, we

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<v Speaker 2>had our moments, you know, for the year leading up

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<v Speaker 2>to that, but it was such a shock and so

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<v Speaker 2>at the time, I was working as an editor and

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<v Speaker 2>I had three young children, and I had to my

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<v Speaker 2>whole world completely unraveled and I had to, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>reframe my future. And at the time it was a shock,

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<v Speaker 2>and as I said, you know, I felt like a victim.

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<v Speaker 2>But all these years later, I can say that was

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<v Speaker 2>a good decision. We've co parented well, we've raised our

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<v Speaker 2>daughters in our twenty four, twenty one, and eighteen, and

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<v Speaker 2>we've both repartnered. We're happy, we get on well, and

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<v Speaker 2>we've made it work. And so that's part of my motivation,

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<v Speaker 2>Gath for writing the book that I wanted to share

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<v Speaker 2>what we did a bit of a formula really. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>I know there's a lot of high conflict breakups and

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<v Speaker 2>so on, but there are some ways to break up well,

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<v Speaker 2>as I outline in my book.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, how to Break Up Well, which is quite a

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<v Speaker 3>confronting title because it sort of presumes that there's some

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<v Speaker 3>kind of formula to this or some way to approach it.

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<v Speaker 3>But I guess there are some great lessons for people

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<v Speaker 3>that find themselves in that situation suddenly as well. Is

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<v Speaker 3>that what this is designed to do also to provide

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<v Speaker 3>people that help that they might need when the situation

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<v Speaker 3>is put upon them.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well that's right. I mean there's the practical and

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<v Speaker 2>the emotional side of a breakup and how to break up. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>I think fundamentally, if you've got kids, or even if

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<v Speaker 2>you don't like behave like grown ups, and there are

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<v Speaker 2>ways to mitigate the stress and just to sort of

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<v Speaker 2>almost design the next chapter of your life. A end

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<v Speaker 2>of a relationship can be the start of a new

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<v Speaker 2>beginning and often for me it was a time of

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<v Speaker 2>immense personal growth that so I share that and also

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<v Speaker 2>my mistakes. I spent a bit too much time dating

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<v Speaker 2>and with what I call sad dads and so on,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was a bit of a sad mum. So

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<v Speaker 2>I look sad dad.

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<v Speaker 3>What's a sad dad?

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<v Speaker 2>Sad dad? Yeah, there's the people that haven't really got

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<v Speaker 2>over their breakups and they look to you, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>as you're drinking your glass of pinogree. They want some

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<v Speaker 2>therapy rather than a date. So there was a bit

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<v Speaker 2>of that that went on. But yeah, just to share

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<v Speaker 2>too that often it's great to stay single for a while.

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<v Speaker 2>It's great to find your single self again, that we

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<v Speaker 2>have a society that really celebrates culturally the idea of

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<v Speaker 2>the couple, marriage, coupledom and so. But something like sixteen

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<v Speaker 2>percent of women in New Zealand now I'm not sure

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<v Speaker 2>about the stats for men, sorry, but are single single

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<v Speaker 2>women households? And there are a lot of people out

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<v Speaker 2>there who saying, you know, I choose this way. So

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<v Speaker 2>how you navigate in a society that says we should

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<v Speaker 2>be part of a couple, how you almost stand out

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<v Speaker 2>and claim that space as well? So I write a

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<v Speaker 2>bit about that as well.

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<v Speaker 3>If I think about a breakup, I imagine it's a

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<v Speaker 3>huge financial inflection point, right. What I mean is there's

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<v Speaker 3>the ground shifts massively. You've got assets that you might

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<v Speaker 3>share that are ripped apart that you've got to liquidate,

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<v Speaker 3>long before you ever thought you were going to have to.

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<v Speaker 3>You've got extra costs that are coming in there. It

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<v Speaker 3>must be a very potentially destabilizing thing to go through.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, and breaking up is expensive. I mean you've got

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<v Speaker 2>the costs of actually, as you say, if you get

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<v Speaker 2>a lawyer, two thirds of couples do you have to

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<v Speaker 2>pay your legal fees. Then often typically today we still

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<v Speaker 2>have what's known as the motherhood penalty. So the mother

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<v Speaker 2>might have taken time out, been working part time or

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<v Speaker 2>not working at all. And you see, you've had this

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<v Speaker 2>quite often, this quite disparate economic situation, and then mum

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<v Speaker 2>two thirds times mum gets left primarily with the kids.

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<v Speaker 2>She's cost of running two houses. I mean, we have

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<v Speaker 2>a cost of living crisis. You know, two potentially mortgages,

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<v Speaker 2>rent two phone bills to you know, whatever goes on.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's expensive. And in fact, interestingly, there's a new

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<v Speaker 2>term called bird nesting, where couples break up but they

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<v Speaker 2>stay in the same house they are.

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<v Speaker 3>That sounds fraught. I'm going to jump in and say

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<v Speaker 3>burden nesting.

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<v Speaker 2>Tell me all though, they keep the family home and

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<v Speaker 2>they fly in and out, so they take turns with

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<v Speaker 2>the kids and they one of them goes off to

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<v Speaker 2>a flash or staying with mates or whatever. So yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>it's expensive to run two houses. It's interesting garth because

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<v Speaker 2>often in a house, like you know, the man, the

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<v Speaker 2>guy might mow the lawns and be in charge of

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<v Speaker 2>you know, paying them mortgage repayments or whatever, and managing

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<v Speaker 2>the accounts and it's the woman that's like, oh, Johnny's

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<v Speaker 2>going to school camp and filling informs. So these roles

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<v Speaker 2>can become quite demarcated, and what you know, for me,

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<v Speaker 2>I remember just thinking, gosh, I've suddenly got to manage

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<v Speaker 2>not only the kids, but these other roles that used

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<v Speaker 2>to fall to him. So I think it can be

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<v Speaker 2>like learning a bit of a new language. For some people.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not always the woman that's been in that role

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<v Speaker 2>of not being involved, but it can be, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it just can be for practical reasons as well.

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<v Speaker 3>So it can be a poor where you're not only

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<v Speaker 3>trying to seek economic empowerment, you're actually kind of forced

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<v Speaker 3>to grapple with it yourself because you're running your own life,

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<v Speaker 3>your own business, your own affairs in a way that

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<v Speaker 3>perhaps wasn't the case.

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<v Speaker 2>In my book, I refer to a couple of women

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<v Speaker 2>who's their names weren't even on the properties, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and they were having to try and get a house valued,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's like, well, sorry, you don't own the house.

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<v Speaker 2>Your ex stuff, and so you know, there's all sorts

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<v Speaker 2>of there's a lot that you don't when you're in

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<v Speaker 2>a relationship, which is part of my mission Garth is

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<v Speaker 2>to actually try and empower or educate women in relationships

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<v Speaker 2>as well, because often you don't know that you're you

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<v Speaker 2>don't have as much economic power in a relationship or

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<v Speaker 2>even an understanding of where the money is and what's

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<v Speaker 2>happening where and do you know what you own? Is

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<v Speaker 2>your name on the property title, on the bank account,

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<v Speaker 2>that kind of thing.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm thinking if if you're in a position or we're

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<v Speaker 3>faced by this kind of situation of divorce and you're

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<v Speaker 3>suddenly having to sell things up and someone and break

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<v Speaker 3>things apart, that must have not just an immediate cost,

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<v Speaker 3>but it's got a wealth effect as well. It must

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<v Speaker 3>change perhaps how wealthy a person you will turn out

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<v Speaker 3>to be unless you make some other changes. What are

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<v Speaker 3>the kind of the wealth effects of separation?

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<v Speaker 2>Huge huge women typically are about at least twenty percent

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<v Speaker 2>worse off after a breakoup, and so it's a shock.

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<v Speaker 2>It can be a financial absolute financial shock. And I

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<v Speaker 2>think that there's also scenarios where you can end up

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<v Speaker 2>in herishing his debt, which is why I'm quite hot

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<v Speaker 2>on the idea of a prenup as well. Basically, under

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<v Speaker 2>a current relationship law, if you've been with someone for

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<v Speaker 2>three years in living in a house together. Then unless

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<v Speaker 2>what you bring into that relationship yourself has got to

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<v Speaker 2>be you've got to sort of say that's mine. You've

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<v Speaker 2>got to ring fence it. And that includes student debt

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<v Speaker 2>or whatever debt that person brings them. So if you

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<v Speaker 2>break up, you could inherit there one hundred thousand dollars

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<v Speaker 2>student a loan as well. So it's an interesting one

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<v Speaker 2>to think. Put it all on the table. What do

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<v Speaker 2>you own and what debts do you have?

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<v Speaker 3>So what does wealth mean to you?

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<v Speaker 2>Wealth to me is actually being healthy and happy. I

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<v Speaker 2>had a little cancer scare last year and I write

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<v Speaker 2>about that in my book, and I being healthy and

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<v Speaker 2>happy is really I mean, obviously I want to pay

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<v Speaker 2>the bills and I want to go on a holiday

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<v Speaker 2>or something like that, but fundamentally I want to live

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<v Speaker 2>a long, healthy life and with the people I love.

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<v Speaker 3>It's a great definition of wealth. Okay, So with all

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<v Speaker 3>of the experience you've had that you've put in this

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<v Speaker 3>book how to break up, Well, what's a really great

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<v Speaker 3>financial decision that you feel you've made?

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<v Speaker 2>Ah, this painting behind me, see, I don't know if

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<v Speaker 2>you could see the road. It's a power morn. So basically,

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<v Speaker 2>after my marriage ended, I had a little bit of

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<v Speaker 2>money left over and after we's blood everything, and I

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<v Speaker 2>bought this artwork and it was it was fourteen years ago,

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<v Speaker 2>and the road seemed to see. I was like, Oh,

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<v Speaker 2>where's that path? The path to the unknown? It sort

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<v Speaker 2>of felt like a metaphor for the next chapter of

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<v Speaker 2>my life.

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<v Speaker 3>For those of us who are just listening rather than watching.

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<v Speaker 3>There's a beautiful calm moorn painting behind Sarah, which depicts

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<v Speaker 3>some garden and full flower with a bright sunlit path

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<v Speaker 3>that's leading you someplace, right yeah, so yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So I bought this up work and it was cost

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<v Speaker 2>quite a bit at the time, but it's been an investment.

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<v Speaker 2>Every time I look at car mourn on the on

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<v Speaker 2>the optims, I'm like, oh, good one. But also it's

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<v Speaker 2>quite a symbolic piece of art to me, and so

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<v Speaker 2>I do. I have bought a bit of art over

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<v Speaker 2>my time, and it's always been it's been symbolic for me. So,

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<v Speaker 2>my mother passed away from Alzheimer's and I bought this

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<v Speaker 2>beautiful art work and it arrived the day that she died,

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<v Speaker 2>Like I didn't know until that morning, and it arrived.

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<v Speaker 2>It came by career two days early. I don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>so I do. If I have a little bit of

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<v Speaker 2>money anywhere, I like to spend it on meaningful art

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<v Speaker 2>and also on taking my daughters on holiday. I love

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<v Speaker 2>and my partner I love nothing more than us doing

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<v Speaker 2>a bit of travel and having experiences.

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<v Speaker 3>So this is a you're investing in now.

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<v Speaker 2>So investing in the NAUGA. I think that's the thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Like having this experience last year. It just came out

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<v Speaker 2>of the blue, you know, breast cancer all totally fine. Now,

0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:14.520
<v Speaker 2>I say life throws you curve balls and came out

0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:16.960
<v Speaker 2>of the blue. But what it did, it made me

0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:22.840
<v Speaker 2>redefine my living in the now. Of course, you still

0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:25.520
<v Speaker 2>want money put aside for your future and your retirement

0:13:26.600 --> 0:13:29.440
<v Speaker 2>and so on, And in fact, any investment plan I

0:13:29.480 --> 0:13:31.920
<v Speaker 2>have is for the long term. But in terms of

0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:36.760
<v Speaker 2>my day to day, my terms are my life experiences.

0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:43.840
<v Speaker 2>It's about celebrating while I'm healthy and well and mobile,

0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:46.719
<v Speaker 2>you know, just having had that experience. My mother was

0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:50.439
<v Speaker 2>sixty one when she got Alzheimer's and she lived for

0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:54.240
<v Speaker 2>fourteen years with it. It was horrific. And then having

0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:58.160
<v Speaker 2>been unwell myself, I just I'm aware of mortality, but

0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.400
<v Speaker 2>not to be dooms you know, doomsday about it, but

0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:03.800
<v Speaker 2>gives you a new perspective.

0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:06.319
<v Speaker 3>So I don't know if you're a New Year's resolution

0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:08.280
<v Speaker 3>kind of a person, but if you were, if you

0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:11.200
<v Speaker 3>were a taskmaster, if you're setting people a challenge for

0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:14.360
<v Speaker 3>how to frame themselves up for success in twenty twenty five,

0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:16.960
<v Speaker 3>and bearing in mind the experiences that you've had and

0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:19.480
<v Speaker 3>what you write about, what do people need to think

0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:20.800
<v Speaker 3>about it over the holiday break.

0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:24.960
<v Speaker 2>I think this is relevant both for people within a

0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:28.680
<v Speaker 2>relationship and out of a relationship. So with someone in

0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:33.880
<v Speaker 2>a relationship, think about your economic power and that relationship.

0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:37.280
<v Speaker 2>Is it equal? It might be that he's off earning

0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:39.840
<v Speaker 2>or she's off earning and you're the one with the kids,

0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:42.600
<v Speaker 2>or you know you're running the domestic the emotional load

0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:46.440
<v Speaker 2>of a household. But do you know where your money is?

0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:49.640
<v Speaker 2>Do you know as your name on the title, is

0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:53.560
<v Speaker 2>your name on the bank accounts? Do you do you

0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:58.880
<v Speaker 2>have a kind of a mutual plan for wealth plan,

0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:05.560
<v Speaker 2>creation plan or saving plan? Understand what's where and when?

0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.640
<v Speaker 2>One of the quotes I love in my book Lady

0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:14.360
<v Speaker 2>deb Chambers, who's a she's a marriage she specializes in

0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:19.800
<v Speaker 2>relationship and divorce law, and she says, you might know

0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:24.000
<v Speaker 2>the marry the man you'll marry, but you don't know

0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:27.600
<v Speaker 2>the manual divorce or you know that sort of thing.

0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:31.040
<v Speaker 2>So you've got to really understand. I'm not trying to

0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:33.560
<v Speaker 2>be dooms in blooms because you know, dooming gloom because

0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:38.080
<v Speaker 2>it's started a new year. But think about what, what

0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:40.600
<v Speaker 2>is where and do you know anything? And for those

0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:45.280
<v Speaker 2>also in a relationship, have you signed a prenup? Look,

0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:49.080
<v Speaker 2>I know it's not particularly romantic to you know, steer

0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:52.760
<v Speaker 2>at someone when you're steering at someone's eyes to say, oh,

0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:56.560
<v Speaker 2>we should sign a prenup, but it's really a great

0:15:56.560 --> 0:15:59.800
<v Speaker 2>thing to do, and to say this is mine, this

0:15:59.880 --> 0:16:03.280
<v Speaker 2>is yours, this is ours. Understand, And it's a bit

0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:09.520
<v Speaker 2>like signing an insurance contract or paying your rates, bills

0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:11.880
<v Speaker 2>or whatever you have to do. It's just a task.

0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:15.640
<v Speaker 2>It's really it's not easy to do. I understand that,

0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:19.840
<v Speaker 2>but it's it's it's a great thing and it protects

0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.480
<v Speaker 2>both of you as long as it's both signed by

0:16:22.600 --> 0:16:25.000
<v Speaker 2>to both lawyers. It's a great thing to do.

0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:27.640
<v Speaker 3>Now that is going to be quite some summer conversation

0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:31.120
<v Speaker 3>Sarah Catherell, author of How to Break Up Well, thank

0:16:31.120 --> 0:16:33.560
<v Speaker 3>you very much for your time, and for those of

0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:36.120
<v Speaker 3>you who are listening, thank you as well. You're probably

0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:39.040
<v Speaker 3>listening on Apple or on Spotify. If you're watching us

0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:42.320
<v Speaker 3>and you saw that beautiful painting behind Sarah, you'll be

0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:44.240
<v Speaker 3>on YouTube. And if you like what you see, let

0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:46.200
<v Speaker 3>us know and let us know what you'd like to see.

0:16:46.680 --> 0:16:49.800
<v Speaker 3>Thanks very much. That's us at Chersi's More Than Money

0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:51.680
<v Speaker 3>Shared Lunch two.

0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.320
<v Speaker 4>More Than Money is a series about the wealth choices

0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:02.280
<v Speaker 4>that changer as Chaseys grows. We want to be able

0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:04.880
<v Speaker 4>to provide a space for shared experience that can benefit

0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:07.840
<v Speaker 4>everyone who wants to grow their wealth, whatever path it takes.

0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:10.800
<v Speaker 4>Now you can do more to build wealth on Chaz's

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<v Speaker 4>Right alongside your investment portfolio. Log in to check out

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<v Speaker 4>on Chasy's Charesa's Investment Management Limited is the issuer of

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<v Speaker 4>the Chaza's kiwiserver scheme. View the lodged product disclosure statement

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<v Speaker 4>at dub dub dub dot chezys dot nz slash kiserver

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<v Speaker 4>slash documents