1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:00,320 Speaker 1: Right. 2 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:02,759 Speaker 2: What's going on at the universities. They've got what's called 3 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,400 Speaker 2: grade inflation. A. Grades have gone from twenty two percent 4 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:08,719 Speaker 2: of results to thirty five percent. This is between now 5 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 2: in two thousand and six, so it's over a sustained 6 00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 2: period of time. The New Zealand Initiative done this report. 7 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:15,880 Speaker 2: It suggests this is as a result of what they 8 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 2: call grade corruption. Chris Williams, the Chief Executive of Course 9 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 2: of Universities New Zealand And, is back with us. Chris, 10 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:22,760 Speaker 2: good morning to you. 11 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: Good morning. 12 00:00:24,079 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 2: Is grade inflation a recognized thing? 13 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,640 Speaker 1: Look, it is, but it's not necessarily a bad thing. 14 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: Over the last twenty years that are covered by this study, 15 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: every university in the English speaking world has had the 16 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: same pressures to basically lift the standard of teaching, to 17 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: lift graduate outcomes, and they've invested in that. There's a 18 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 1: lot more support put around students now. Teachers are taught 19 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:55,160 Speaker 1: how to be good teachers. There are systems that sit 20 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: around teachers and students to basically get more support to them, 21 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: even things like technology like distance learning. Since COVID, every 22 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: university now uses a distance learning in a much more 23 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: structured way to track the progress of students to help 24 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: students through small modules of learning and different forms of 25 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: assessment as well. So a lot has changed over that period. 26 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 2: So you disagree with the report, you're saying that we've 27 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 2: bulked up the system and because of that, people do better. 28 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: I can't definitively say what it is, but I know 29 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 1: that the report only considers four factors, none of which 30 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: are things like changes in how teaching is done or 31 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:38,480 Speaker 1: all the systems put around students, or even things like 32 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: the use of online technologies and increasing numbers of postgraduate students. 33 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: All those factors are missed in the report, which I 34 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:48,080 Speaker 1: think is unfortunately. 35 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 2: What about the sharp increase in a grades in the 36 00:01:50,320 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 2: COVID period, because there's twenty six to twenty two, I mean, 37 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 2: that's a twenty year period, So I don't know that 38 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 2: I'm that alarmed by it. But there was a burst 39 00:01:57,720 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 2: in COVID, wasn't there? 40 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: Look, there was, and it was a unique situation. Eight universities. 41 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: Each of them did slightly different things. Some universities just 42 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 1: simply said, because there's two months where students aren't able 43 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: to attend lectures, we're going to give everyone a one 44 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:17,839 Speaker 1: grade point bump. And other universities said things like mark 45 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 1: more leniently. So the idea was to basically make sure 46 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: that no students were disadvantaged. But it was only at 47 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: the end of the year you could really look back 48 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 1: and go, did we overcorrect or did we get it 49 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: about right? 50 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 2: What about the funding incentives the report talks about, So 51 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 2: in other words, there are certain courses that you know 52 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 2: there's a bit of money flowing, so therefore where you 53 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 2: need some people to pass. 54 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: Look, absolutely, there are incentives, but the incentives are actually 55 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: a feature of the system, not a bug. So the 56 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 1: whole idea is that universities are funded to retain students. 57 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: If you get accepted into university, you are at a 58 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: standard where you should be able to pass. And quite rightly, 59 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: there's an expectation that universities are passing students. Yea. 60 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Rater said the small that it's a cultural shift 61 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 2: and you just can't afford to have people fail anymore, 62 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: because I'll cry, is there any truth in that? 63 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 1: I think that's probably an unfair characterization. The key thing 64 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 1: for universities is it's the reputation of their qualifications and 65 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: their graduates that are the key to a university being successful. 66 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: If employers lose confidence that a qualification that a graduate 67 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: can do what it says on the tin. If there's 68 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: a loss of confidence in that, then universities are in trouble. 69 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 1: So universities spend a lot of time and effort making 70 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 1: sure that they are producing good quality graduates and those 71 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: graduates get good jobs. 72 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 2: Good stuff. Chris, appreciate it very much, Chris Wheeland, who's 73 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 2: from the university's New Zealand. For more from the Mic 74 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,040 Speaker 2: Asking Breakfast, listen live to news talks. It'd be from 75 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 2: six am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.