1 00:00:00,290 --> 00:00:03,750 Speaker 1: which scam affects Singaporeans the most, what is our most 2 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:05,330 Speaker 1: vulnerable point? Good 3 00:00:05,330 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 2: deal. So I would say good deals. Singaporeans weak this morning. 4 00:00:08,570 --> 00:00:13,049 Speaker 2: So like especially now with the travel, you know borders 5 00:00:13,050 --> 00:00:15,350 Speaker 2: opening up. So anyone who sees a good deal, I 6 00:00:15,350 --> 00:00:18,050 Speaker 2: think they would grab it And especially for those like 7 00:00:18,060 --> 00:00:20,030 Speaker 2: they haven't been traveling for like the past two years 8 00:00:20,030 --> 00:00:22,939 Speaker 2: and all if they see like an sq business class 9 00:00:22,940 --> 00:00:26,300 Speaker 2: 4 500 if they don't think about it and they're 10 00:00:26,300 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 2: just in a rush impulsive decision, I think they would 11 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 2: just fall for the scam. 12 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:33,540 Speaker 2: This is a C. N. A. Podcast. 13 00:00:37,990 --> 00:00:40,190 Speaker 1: A special occasion is coming up and I want to 14 00:00:40,190 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: get my wife something nice. I'm thinking maybe a branded handbag. 15 00:00:44,090 --> 00:00:47,420 Speaker 1: I found some options online and after scrolling through reading 16 00:00:47,420 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: the reviews, I click add to cart, I check out. 17 00:00:51,170 --> 00:00:54,020 Speaker 1: Pay up and have faith that the bag I ordered 18 00:00:54,030 --> 00:00:55,570 Speaker 1: will eventually show up 19 00:00:56,150 --> 00:00:59,170 Speaker 1: every single day. We spend millions of dollars over a 20 00:00:59,170 --> 00:01:03,620 Speaker 1: variety of online platforms in Singapore. It's platforms like shopping 21 00:01:03,620 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: Lozada amazon and of course the bustling one stop shop 22 00:01:07,290 --> 00:01:07,990 Speaker 1: carousel 23 00:01:08,950 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: and by and large you do get whatever you ordered 24 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:14,330 Speaker 1: but that's not always the case. 25 00:01:14,980 --> 00:01:18,300 Speaker 1: The ugly side to e commerce was reviewed recently. Her 26 00:01:18,300 --> 00:01:21,190 Speaker 1: husband and wife were found to have allegedly cheated people 27 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:24,810 Speaker 1: out of their luxury items to the tune of 32 28 00:01:24,810 --> 00:01:26,380 Speaker 1: million Singapore dollars, 29 00:01:27,140 --> 00:01:30,559 Speaker 1: 26 year old Singaporean PGA peng and his 27 year 30 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:35,950 Speaker 1: old wife thai national are the couple behind the scam 31 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,500 Speaker 1: they traded in luxury items that cost tens of thousands 32 00:01:39,500 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: of dollars, often even befriending their customers to earn their trust, 33 00:01:45,010 --> 00:01:48,750 Speaker 1: But it was all a front. A 180 police reports 34 00:01:48,750 --> 00:01:51,530 Speaker 1: have since been made and the couple are now on 35 00:01:51,530 --> 00:01:52,060 Speaker 1: the run. 36 00:01:52,870 --> 00:01:55,559 Speaker 1: In this episode, we take a deep dive into the 37 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:58,650 Speaker 1: wall of e commerce how the sale of goods and 38 00:01:58,650 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: services can lead to miss deliveries, defective goods are worse 39 00:02:03,010 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: scams which leave consumers empty handed after parting with their 40 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:08,310 Speaker 1: precious money. 41 00:02:09,130 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: Why does this happen? Who is most susceptible? What motivates 42 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:17,140 Speaker 1: sellers to cheat and what makes us believe them? 43 00:02:17,790 --> 00:02:19,570 Speaker 1: I have an interesting group of guests today 44 00:02:21,810 --> 00:02:24,080 Speaker 1: to give us an idea of the challenges. A mega 45 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:28,450 Speaker 1: e commerce marketplace faces is Jessica Chen policy and escalation 46 00:02:28,450 --> 00:02:32,250 Speaker 1: manager at Carousel. Hi steven. Thanks for having me here 47 00:02:32,250 --> 00:02:35,930 Speaker 1: today for an overview of the psychology behind those who 48 00:02:35,930 --> 00:02:39,920 Speaker 1: fall for scams is Doctor Annabelle chow, a clinical psychologist. 49 00:02:39,930 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: Hi 50 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:41,550 Speaker 2: everyone. Thanks for having 51 00:02:41,550 --> 00:02:42,060 Speaker 1: me 52 00:02:42,660 --> 00:02:45,250 Speaker 1: and to tell us how it all really works behind 53 00:02:45,250 --> 00:02:48,230 Speaker 1: the scenes. We have a guest who was formerly convicted 54 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: of scamming people. He has requested to be anonymous. So 55 00:02:52,490 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: we'll call him john and his voice has been altered. 56 00:02:55,650 --> 00:02:56,190 Speaker 1: Hi 57 00:02:56,190 --> 00:02:58,510 Speaker 2: steve. Hi everyone. Good to be here. Thanks for having 58 00:02:58,510 --> 00:02:58,620 Speaker 2: me 59 00:02:58,620 --> 00:03:00,570 Speaker 1: here. Welcome everyone. 60 00:03:05,450 --> 00:03:05,839 Speaker 2: Let's 61 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: jump right into it. Let's first get an overview of 62 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: the e commerce landscape. I mean everything is online these days. 63 00:03:12,530 --> 00:03:15,500 Speaker 1: You know, scams have become a lot more elaborate and sophisticated. 64 00:03:15,510 --> 00:03:19,140 Speaker 1: Just last year, there was a whopping 53% more cases 65 00:03:19,139 --> 00:03:22,820 Speaker 1: reported from fishing to love scams and of course e 66 00:03:22,820 --> 00:03:25,510 Speaker 1: commerce ones like the one we just talked about 67 00:03:25,700 --> 00:03:28,220 Speaker 1: with a couple on the run Annabelle. Let me start 68 00:03:28,220 --> 00:03:30,490 Speaker 1: with you. Are you surprised at the scale at which 69 00:03:30,490 --> 00:03:32,119 Speaker 1: people are being scammed? 70 00:03:32,139 --> 00:03:35,990 Speaker 2: Not really since Covid started, there has been quite an 71 00:03:35,990 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 2: escalation in statistics when we look at the news and 72 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:39,980 Speaker 2: we look at 73 00:03:40,170 --> 00:03:44,180 Speaker 2: patients will turn up in the clinic. Pre Covid, there 74 00:03:44,180 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 2: hasn't been that many cases but during Covid it just 75 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 2: suddenly kind of escalated with people reporting love scams and 76 00:03:51,930 --> 00:03:54,540 Speaker 2: very commonly e commerce scams 77 00:03:54,550 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 1: I guess because we were all sort of isolated at home. 78 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,730 Speaker 1: Our only window to the world was literally computers, 79 00:03:59,740 --> 00:04:02,490 Speaker 1: online personas, john I want to get to you because 80 00:04:02,500 --> 00:04:04,980 Speaker 1: you are a former scammer and you actually only agreed 81 00:04:04,980 --> 00:04:07,170 Speaker 1: to come on this podcast if we kept you anonymous, 82 00:04:07,180 --> 00:04:09,950 Speaker 1: you serve three years and seven months in prison for 83 00:04:09,950 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: multiple cheating scams. But now you want to educate people 84 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,690 Speaker 1: about such scams. Tell us what was your reaction when 85 00:04:16,690 --> 00:04:19,300 Speaker 1: you first heard the news about this couple. 86 00:04:19,550 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 2: I wasn't surprised. I mean like due to social media, 87 00:04:24,370 --> 00:04:27,550 Speaker 2: due to the lifestyle we have today, everybody is wanting 88 00:04:27,550 --> 00:04:30,529 Speaker 2: to make a quick buck. Everybody wants to get rich 89 00:04:30,529 --> 00:04:34,420 Speaker 2: fast and all so people are getting creative scammers are 90 00:04:34,420 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 2: getting creative. It wasn't a surprise for me sooner or 91 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 2: later what they are doing and all will be eventually 92 00:04:41,089 --> 00:04:42,970 Speaker 2: out in the media and such 93 00:04:43,430 --> 00:04:46,950 Speaker 2: the other end of the consumer and also people greedy 94 00:04:46,950 --> 00:04:50,420 Speaker 2: at such such deals. So that's why it takes both 95 00:04:50,430 --> 00:04:53,070 Speaker 2: ends to come up with this situation that we have today. 96 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:56,350 Speaker 1: Give us a sense of how you work to the scammer. Actually, 97 00:04:56,350 --> 00:04:58,940 Speaker 1: once you connected with someone online, what's the key objective 98 00:04:58,940 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 1: of that conversation? You have 99 00:05:00,730 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 2: it all boils down to emotions. Being X camera myself. 100 00:05:04,890 --> 00:05:08,540 Speaker 2: I would say that we pry on people's emotion, usually 101 00:05:08,540 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 2: when people 102 00:05:09,820 --> 00:05:13,260 Speaker 2: got a load down, they tend to trigger what I 103 00:05:13,260 --> 00:05:17,700 Speaker 2: learned is the system one thinking, impulsive way of thinking. 104 00:05:17,700 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 2: So that's where usually people falls to scam. Well, 105 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,210 Speaker 1: shopping is meant to be impulsive. In fact, Jessica, you're 106 00:05:24,210 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: going to tell us that the whole marketing plan right 107 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,690 Speaker 1: to get you to see something and go, wow, maybe 108 00:05:28,690 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: I can have that. We've heard about bank related scams. 109 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:33,500 Speaker 1: Often that one has to do with some external systems, 110 00:05:33,500 --> 00:05:36,210 Speaker 1: perhaps some weak infrastructure links, but 111 00:05:36,460 --> 00:05:39,190 Speaker 1: a scam that involves buying and selling of goods, especially 112 00:05:39,190 --> 00:05:41,990 Speaker 1: luxury items. How is that different for a lot of 113 00:05:41,990 --> 00:05:44,700 Speaker 1: these luxury products that we see, They are not readily 114 00:05:44,700 --> 00:05:48,510 Speaker 1: available in the market, There are very limited supply. So 115 00:05:48,510 --> 00:05:51,930 Speaker 1: a lot of users, they opt for unofficial channels. What's 116 00:05:51,930 --> 00:05:54,460 Speaker 1: the attraction that these unofficial channels, I'm just guessing it's 117 00:05:54,460 --> 00:05:57,219 Speaker 1: because it's a better deal, right? Not necessarily, sometimes it's 118 00:05:57,220 --> 00:05:59,529 Speaker 1: really purely supply. So like you can't just walk in 119 00:05:59,529 --> 00:06:01,840 Speaker 1: and say, hey, I want to buy like this model 120 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:03,190 Speaker 1: of Rolex and they will tell you, 121 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,770 Speaker 1: sorry, there is a wait list, You have to buy 122 00:06:05,779 --> 00:06:08,250 Speaker 1: a few different watches with us before we allow you 123 00:06:08,250 --> 00:06:11,470 Speaker 1: onto the waitlist. So it's sometimes it's not just the price, 124 00:06:11,470 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 1: but also like the rarity of the item, like a 125 00:06:13,690 --> 00:06:16,770 Speaker 1: limited supply and that these people, they can't go to 126 00:06:16,770 --> 00:06:19,529 Speaker 1: official channels even if they want to and if they 127 00:06:19,540 --> 00:06:21,810 Speaker 1: really want that product, the only option is to go 128 00:06:21,810 --> 00:06:25,300 Speaker 1: to like second hand market marketplaces or forums to get 129 00:06:25,300 --> 00:06:28,220 Speaker 1: what they want. So that's where carousel comes in, right? 130 00:06:28,220 --> 00:06:29,930 Speaker 1: Because it's an ideal platform 131 00:06:30,220 --> 00:06:33,950 Speaker 1: to market your goods. It's unofficial in that sense. But 132 00:06:33,950 --> 00:06:36,930 Speaker 1: having luxury items there, I gotta say, people can never 133 00:06:36,930 --> 00:06:39,810 Speaker 1: be really sure right whether it's official or not. So 134 00:06:39,820 --> 00:06:42,730 Speaker 1: how do you guys try and manage that? We do 135 00:06:42,730 --> 00:06:46,300 Speaker 1: feel that education is key. I think it was mentioned 136 00:06:46,300 --> 00:06:48,420 Speaker 1: by john just now, right. If a deal is kind 137 00:06:48,420 --> 00:06:50,840 Speaker 1: of too good to be true is really trying to 138 00:06:50,850 --> 00:06:52,830 Speaker 1: trigger the emotion in you that I'm a 139 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,130 Speaker 1: secure it soon, but we try to educate our users 140 00:06:56,130 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: to stay away from that mentality in general. If a 141 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:01,790 Speaker 1: deal is too good to be true, you may want 142 00:07:01,790 --> 00:07:04,140 Speaker 1: to step back and reflect like, why is it this 143 00:07:04,140 --> 00:07:07,099 Speaker 1: cheap in general? The advice that we give is either 144 00:07:07,100 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 1: use character protection where we hold onto the money and 145 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:11,820 Speaker 1: then only to release the money after you get the 146 00:07:11,820 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: goods or in general when you do cash on delivery 147 00:07:14,970 --> 00:07:15,450 Speaker 1: you should always 148 00:07:15,460 --> 00:07:18,170 Speaker 1: ensure check the item, ensure that you have the item 149 00:07:18,180 --> 00:07:21,700 Speaker 1: before making payment basically. But even with that I may 150 00:07:21,700 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: have to admit reports to show us that you guys 151 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,710 Speaker 1: are the top digital platform used for e commerce scams. 152 00:07:27,710 --> 00:07:32,970 Speaker 1: You know it's 37% with 998 out of 2707 cases 153 00:07:32,980 --> 00:07:35,540 Speaker 1: the numbers didn't come down but I'm sure this is 154 00:07:35,540 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: something that you guys are facing constantly 155 00:07:38,290 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: perhaps tell us what the most common complaints that you 156 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,950 Speaker 1: actually get from your users are there, how do you 157 00:07:42,950 --> 00:07:47,470 Speaker 1: deal with all the missed a liveries, the missing items, 158 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: those kind of things that happen every day. Actually we 159 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,230 Speaker 1: are not the top platform for scams at the moment. 160 00:07:53,230 --> 00:07:55,780 Speaker 1: So from 20 to 0 to 20 to 1 161 00:07:55,970 --> 00:07:59,410 Speaker 1: There was actually a 40.1% decrease in fraud which is 162 00:07:59,410 --> 00:08:02,750 Speaker 1: a significant drop also because during the pandemic, a lot 163 00:08:02,750 --> 00:08:05,780 Speaker 1: of people, they are doing online shopping when there is 164 00:08:05,780 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: that volume at the same time we actually managed to 165 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:12,150 Speaker 1: maintain or even lower our fraud rates and achieving a 166 00:08:12,150 --> 00:08:14,860 Speaker 1: new low for our sharing e commerce but actually this 167 00:08:14,860 --> 00:08:17,210 Speaker 1: is something you guys can't control. I mean the infrastructure 168 00:08:17,210 --> 00:08:19,780 Speaker 1: can do so much, I'm sure you've talked about 169 00:08:19,792 --> 00:08:22,692 Speaker 1: what was the sort of thinking behind it when people 170 00:08:22,692 --> 00:08:26,152 Speaker 1: say well you are promoting scams in that sense because 171 00:08:26,152 --> 00:08:28,902 Speaker 1: you are the platform they use. What is your reaction? 172 00:08:28,912 --> 00:08:32,422 Speaker 1: We are always innovating you are investing in technology, in 173 00:08:32,422 --> 00:08:35,242 Speaker 1: our people to basically try to keep one step ahead 174 00:08:35,252 --> 00:08:39,782 Speaker 1: of opportunistic scammers who I would say evolve almost as 175 00:08:39,782 --> 00:08:42,541 Speaker 1: quickly or even more quickly than we do. We use 176 00:08:42,542 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 1: things like rule 177 00:08:43,614 --> 00:08:46,374 Speaker 1: to detect and prevent fraud at scale and then we 178 00:08:46,374 --> 00:08:48,664 Speaker 1: also have these signals that our team is aware of 179 00:08:48,664 --> 00:08:52,304 Speaker 1: and constantly looking out for basically we try to study 180 00:08:52,304 --> 00:08:55,994 Speaker 1: these fraud patterns and try to investigate and find common 181 00:08:55,994 --> 00:08:59,254 Speaker 1: behaviors and take action before they even step onto our platform. 182 00:08:59,254 --> 00:09:01,434 Speaker 1: So these are things that our team is actually invested 183 00:09:01,434 --> 00:09:03,894 Speaker 1: in and we're doing every day Okay To be fair, 184 00:09:03,894 --> 00:09:06,473 Speaker 1: Carousel is not the only platform. I think every online 185 00:09:06,474 --> 00:09:07,420 Speaker 1: platform faces 186 00:09:07,436 --> 00:09:10,286 Speaker 1: the same sort of challenges. But I picked up on 187 00:09:10,285 --> 00:09:13,086 Speaker 1: the keyword you said behavior and john mentioned that earlier 188 00:09:13,086 --> 00:09:15,946 Speaker 1: also it's about how we feel and john are there 189 00:09:15,946 --> 00:09:19,246 Speaker 1: certain sort of key human traits that you guys look 190 00:09:19,246 --> 00:09:22,346 Speaker 1: out for and intentionally sort of try to prey on 191 00:09:22,346 --> 00:09:23,596 Speaker 1: when you're speaking to someone 192 00:09:23,606 --> 00:09:27,316 Speaker 2: usually for the first five minutes where we call the 193 00:09:27,316 --> 00:09:29,806 Speaker 2: warm up, we will try to dig as much as 194 00:09:29,816 --> 00:09:31,256 Speaker 2: we call it the hot buttons. 195 00:09:31,550 --> 00:09:35,310 Speaker 2: So that's where we define how the person or how 196 00:09:35,309 --> 00:09:38,220 Speaker 2: the couple as an individual from there. We will drop 197 00:09:38,220 --> 00:09:40,870 Speaker 2: like subtle here in subtle words to see how they 198 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,530 Speaker 2: react to it. So from there we can measure the 199 00:09:43,530 --> 00:09:46,620 Speaker 2: vulnerability level of each individual. 200 00:09:46,630 --> 00:09:50,020 Speaker 1: Wow! Okay. So now I have to ask the psychologist, 201 00:09:50,030 --> 00:09:52,700 Speaker 1: what do you make of that? He's almost a psychologist 202 00:09:52,700 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: like you two, he's reading people and reading their behaviors 203 00:09:55,730 --> 00:09:56,900 Speaker 1: and well what do you say to that? 204 00:09:57,130 --> 00:10:01,209 Speaker 2: I was gonna say because there's a consistent pattern between 205 00:10:01,220 --> 00:10:06,500 Speaker 2: marketing products, psychology and scamming because they all about studying 206 00:10:06,500 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 2: human behavior in different forms, right? Like one is to 207 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,540 Speaker 2: kind of get people to buy more and another one 208 00:10:12,540 --> 00:10:15,690 Speaker 2: is to sell and we study human behavior on the 209 00:10:15,690 --> 00:10:19,660 Speaker 2: psychology kind of level. But john is absolutely right and 210 00:10:19,660 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 2: I think that's a very intelligent way of filling your 211 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:25,949 Speaker 2: feet and figuring out how vulnerable this person can be. 212 00:10:26,309 --> 00:10:29,170 Speaker 2: And generally we will think about it in a cognitive 213 00:10:29,179 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 2: versus a motivational processes happening and emotions will fall under 214 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:38,620 Speaker 2: motivational where you tap on their feelings of loneliness in 215 00:10:38,620 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 2: the example of love scams, feelings of greed, feelings of 216 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,650 Speaker 2: wanting to get a good deal or even like feelings 217 00:10:44,660 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 2: that kind of associate with the identity that they want. 218 00:10:48,890 --> 00:10:52,300 Speaker 2: So with the most recent scam that has been reported, 219 00:10:52,300 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 2: I think a lot of them want to be associated 220 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 2: with the identity who has been able to get a 221 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:02,339 Speaker 2: really luxurious item, A very limited item that Jessica was saying, 222 00:11:02,340 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 2: even though you have the money, you don't necessarily can 223 00:11:05,929 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 2: actually buy it because you have to be an exclusive 224 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,490 Speaker 2: wait list. So I think wanting to have the identity 225 00:11:12,500 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 2: is actually quite important because it's very personal to yourself. 226 00:11:16,340 --> 00:11:18,890 Speaker 1: So john can you give us an example of what 227 00:11:18,890 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: you think the couple did? How did they sort of 228 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:23,730 Speaker 1: read it to people? How did they try and find 229 00:11:23,730 --> 00:11:26,619 Speaker 1: that sweet weak spot, so to speak? 230 00:11:26,630 --> 00:11:29,079 Speaker 2: This one. I think it could be right, could be wrong. 231 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,790 Speaker 2: Their modus operandi is when they befriend people, they befriend 232 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:37,730 Speaker 2: people of a certain characteristic like people who want stuff 233 00:11:37,740 --> 00:11:39,310 Speaker 2: but they cannot get their hands on. 234 00:11:39,550 --> 00:11:42,589 Speaker 2: So from there usually what scammers will do is like 235 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:44,950 Speaker 2: hey bring you out for a drink, bring you up 236 00:11:44,950 --> 00:11:48,630 Speaker 2: to exclusive places, you know make them feel special. That's 237 00:11:48,630 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 2: what the job of the scammer is to make them 238 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,430 Speaker 2: feel special. And then once they are on like high 239 00:11:54,429 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 2: cloud nine, that's where the scammer will make their move. 240 00:11:58,050 --> 00:12:01,010 Speaker 2: So I think this is how they operate. But I 241 00:12:01,010 --> 00:12:01,890 Speaker 2: could be wrong. 242 00:12:01,900 --> 00:12:03,599 Speaker 1: But as a scammer don't you want 243 00:12:03,616 --> 00:12:06,946 Speaker 1: sort of stay hidden and not let them really know 244 00:12:06,946 --> 00:12:10,256 Speaker 1: who you are by becoming friends. They've seen you right. 245 00:12:10,266 --> 00:12:11,336 Speaker 1: Was that not a concern 246 00:12:11,346 --> 00:12:13,596 Speaker 2: if they are planning to run away? I think that 247 00:12:13,596 --> 00:12:17,116 Speaker 2: shouldn't be a concern because if you see the person, 248 00:12:17,126 --> 00:12:19,396 Speaker 2: if you talk to the person, if you put a 249 00:12:19,396 --> 00:12:23,146 Speaker 2: face to it front, I think your trust level would 250 00:12:23,146 --> 00:12:26,695 Speaker 2: really be on a high, you wouldn't have that defense up. 251 00:12:26,706 --> 00:12:27,670 Speaker 2: That's where the sky 252 00:12:27,772 --> 00:12:31,972 Speaker 2: actually prey on their vulnerability. It's interesting, right? Because what 253 00:12:31,972 --> 00:12:34,502 Speaker 2: I've also learned from john is that you actually need 254 00:12:34,502 --> 00:12:37,082 Speaker 2: to do quite a lot of prep work and study 255 00:12:37,092 --> 00:12:42,291 Speaker 2: before you actually approach your potential person, right? You have 256 00:12:42,292 --> 00:12:47,362 Speaker 2: to not only study the person's vulnerability through conversations. You 257 00:12:47,362 --> 00:12:49,962 Speaker 2: need to actually be quite well versed in the different 258 00:12:49,962 --> 00:12:51,742 Speaker 2: types of scams and the different 259 00:12:51,980 --> 00:12:53,660 Speaker 2: possibilities as well. 260 00:12:53,670 --> 00:12:57,150 Speaker 1: In fact, john, have you ever told someone don't fall 261 00:12:57,150 --> 00:13:00,079 Speaker 1: for that is a scam while actually scamming them? 262 00:13:00,090 --> 00:13:03,150 Speaker 2: Yes, I had this like we call it like Benjamin 263 00:13:03,150 --> 00:13:06,059 Speaker 2: franklin close. It's like to assure them that it's not 264 00:13:06,059 --> 00:13:09,010 Speaker 2: a scam, but you're actually scamming them at the end 265 00:13:09,010 --> 00:13:11,770 Speaker 2: of the day. These are the methods that scammers used 266 00:13:11,770 --> 00:13:12,830 Speaker 2: in Singapore 267 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:14,510 Speaker 1: and about what you say to that I mean. So 268 00:13:14,510 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: the fact that I have a chat with you, I 269 00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,250 Speaker 1: switch on my camera, I let you see me on zoom. 270 00:13:19,540 --> 00:13:21,350 Speaker 1: That makes you trust me more. Right? 271 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:26,089 Speaker 2: Absolutely. Because you're no longer just like a removed person 272 00:13:26,090 --> 00:13:28,350 Speaker 2: that I don't actually know, I kind of have a 273 00:13:28,350 --> 00:13:32,020 Speaker 2: relationship with you now and you will more likely trust 274 00:13:32,030 --> 00:13:34,540 Speaker 2: the people that you've met and if you form a 275 00:13:34,540 --> 00:13:38,380 Speaker 2: relationship with them, there's lesser reason not to trust them. 276 00:13:38,690 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 2: I also read in the news that this couple. They 277 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,080 Speaker 2: actually rented a good class bungalow and they actually invited 278 00:13:44,090 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 2: the buyers to their home. And if I have actually 279 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,180 Speaker 2: stepped into your home and that's your private space, right? 280 00:13:50,179 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 2: And I actually see with my own eyes that okay, 281 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,900 Speaker 2: you know, you actually live in quite a comfortable place 282 00:13:55,910 --> 00:14:01,150 Speaker 2: that increases the legitimacy of the relationship and of this person, 283 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:03,290 Speaker 2: I will more likely trust this person. 284 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,670 Speaker 2: And I think probably from the scammers perspective, it's the 285 00:14:06,670 --> 00:14:09,570 Speaker 2: economies of high risk high returns, Right? So 286 00:14:09,570 --> 00:14:11,710 Speaker 1: it really is a bit of a long term plan. 287 00:14:11,710 --> 00:14:14,340 Speaker 1: I mean you are investing so called in this scam, 288 00:14:14,350 --> 00:14:17,530 Speaker 1: but annabelle, we all have been told time and time 289 00:14:17,530 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 1: again to watch out for scam taking place. And we 290 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: know at the back of our mind that every transaction 291 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:23,810 Speaker 1: we do could possibly lead to a scam. 292 00:14:23,980 --> 00:14:27,220 Speaker 1: So why are we still so vulnerable and willing to 293 00:14:27,220 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: take these risks? 294 00:14:28,290 --> 00:14:31,780 Speaker 2: I think there are many reasons the first fallacy that 295 00:14:31,780 --> 00:14:35,740 Speaker 2: I probably should share is it was most commonly believed 296 00:14:35,750 --> 00:14:39,700 Speaker 2: that only lowly educated people are more likely 297 00:14:39,710 --> 00:14:43,150 Speaker 2: to get scammed. But actually the research shows that the 298 00:14:43,150 --> 00:14:46,489 Speaker 2: more educated you are and the higher your SCS is 299 00:14:46,500 --> 00:14:50,580 Speaker 2: you're actually more likely to be scammed primarily because this 300 00:14:50,580 --> 00:14:55,430 Speaker 2: population have a little bit of knowledge of the subject matter. 301 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:59,650 Speaker 2: So for example, in the case of this luxury items, right? 302 00:14:59,660 --> 00:15:02,370 Speaker 2: The people who are buying, they have sufficient knowledge of 303 00:15:02,380 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 2: this luxury item, they know that this is really exclusive. 304 00:15:06,650 --> 00:15:09,350 Speaker 2: I need to actually be on the wait list is limited. 305 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 2: Not a lot of people have access to buy it. 306 00:15:12,050 --> 00:15:12,630 Speaker 2: If 307 00:15:12,655 --> 00:15:16,275 Speaker 2: you ask somebody else who don't buy luxury items, that 308 00:15:16,275 --> 00:15:19,425 Speaker 2: person would have no idea that there is this system 309 00:15:19,425 --> 00:15:22,175 Speaker 2: going on in this process and it's then less likely 310 00:15:22,175 --> 00:15:25,175 Speaker 2: to engage in the process. So when, you know a 311 00:15:25,175 --> 00:15:28,325 Speaker 2: little bit, you are actually more likely to be scammed 312 00:15:28,335 --> 00:15:29,630 Speaker 2: than if you don't know at all. 313 00:15:29,970 --> 00:15:30,210 Speaker 2: Oh 314 00:15:30,210 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: my gosh! So it almost sounds like ignorance is bliss. 315 00:15:33,250 --> 00:15:36,230 Speaker 1: The less I know the safer, which seems a bit 316 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:37,930 Speaker 1: counterintuitive 317 00:15:37,940 --> 00:15:39,780 Speaker 2: a little bit. It's just a little bit like the 318 00:15:39,780 --> 00:15:44,030 Speaker 2: financial securities kind of scam similar. The people who tend 319 00:15:44,030 --> 00:15:46,250 Speaker 2: to be scammed tend to be the people who have 320 00:15:46,250 --> 00:15:49,700 Speaker 2: a little bit of knowledge about investments, Like I have 321 00:15:49,700 --> 00:15:51,870 Speaker 2: zero knowledge of investments. If somebody approach 322 00:15:51,885 --> 00:15:54,695 Speaker 2: just me to talk to me about investments, I will 323 00:15:54,695 --> 00:15:57,145 Speaker 2: shut that conversation down or you know, I wouldn't be 324 00:15:57,145 --> 00:15:59,655 Speaker 2: interested in it. So I'm less likely to be scammed. 325 00:15:59,665 --> 00:16:00,075 Speaker 2: So 326 00:16:00,075 --> 00:16:02,645 Speaker 1: in other words, it's either no, it really well or 327 00:16:02,645 --> 00:16:04,845 Speaker 1: don't know it at all. The people in between who 328 00:16:04,845 --> 00:16:07,645 Speaker 1: think they know, but don't know enough who tend to 329 00:16:07,645 --> 00:16:10,145 Speaker 1: get caught out. Is that true, john is that how 330 00:16:10,145 --> 00:16:12,935 Speaker 1: you would target people. Have you ever been online chatting 331 00:16:12,935 --> 00:16:13,785 Speaker 1: with someone and gone 332 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,500 Speaker 1: Now, This is not gonna work. This guy is too smart. 333 00:16:16,510 --> 00:16:20,030 Speaker 2: Yeah, because we had to make phone calls to call 334 00:16:20,030 --> 00:16:22,490 Speaker 2: the clients down to our office from the phone call. 335 00:16:22,490 --> 00:16:27,350 Speaker 2: Usually we can measure their level of knowledge on certain topics, 336 00:16:27,360 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 2: but like Daughter Annabelle say, you know the smarter they are, 337 00:16:30,770 --> 00:16:33,590 Speaker 2: you know, sometimes the more vulnerable they are tend to 338 00:16:33,590 --> 00:16:36,380 Speaker 2: fall to scams. You know, just like the recent nickel 339 00:16:36,380 --> 00:16:39,180 Speaker 2: scam you can see, it's a group of lawyers and 340 00:16:39,190 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 2: educated people so you can see the trend there is changing. 341 00:16:46,530 --> 00:16:49,510 Speaker 1: Hi, my name is julie, you and I'm the host 342 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,590 Speaker 1: of the new season of the climate conversations from chefs 343 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: to scientists join me as we get personal with the 344 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: people driving change and sustainability look out for our episodes 345 00:17:01,290 --> 00:17:03,170 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. 346 00:17:05,890 --> 00:17:08,650 Speaker 1: So Jessica, you guys also a bit challenged now because 347 00:17:08,650 --> 00:17:11,110 Speaker 1: I know the government has been asking e commerce platforms 348 00:17:11,109 --> 00:17:15,170 Speaker 1: to take more responsibility. There's an inter ministry committee on scams. 349 00:17:15,170 --> 00:17:19,450 Speaker 1: They introduce e commerce marketplace transaction safety ratings this year 350 00:17:19,460 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: in just May 2022. 351 00:17:21,900 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 1: I also know that carousel hasn't been able yet to 352 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,700 Speaker 1: meet the threshold of 46 so help us understand why 353 00:17:27,700 --> 00:17:30,609 Speaker 1: is this so hard to achieve and what is it 354 00:17:30,609 --> 00:17:33,260 Speaker 1: that is making it so challenging for you guys. We 355 00:17:33,260 --> 00:17:35,699 Speaker 1: all understand that Carousel kind of like a C two 356 00:17:35,700 --> 00:17:38,940 Speaker 1: C marketplace, right? The buying and selling actually happens between 357 00:17:38,940 --> 00:17:42,030 Speaker 1: regular people, basically. We want to open up 358 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 1: the opportunity to buy and sell directly with one another? 359 00:17:45,410 --> 00:17:48,609 Speaker 1: You know, we open up a world of possibilities for interactions, 360 00:17:48,609 --> 00:17:51,409 Speaker 1: meeting like minded people and you know basically enabling the 361 00:17:51,410 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: circular economy to try. Basically our angle is to try 362 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:58,330 Speaker 1: to save the environment through secondhand buying and selling, saving money. 363 00:17:58,850 --> 00:18:02,459 Speaker 1: As with any community, basically bad actors do threaten the 364 00:18:02,460 --> 00:18:06,310 Speaker 1: integrity and safety of our platforms. So we do provide 365 00:18:06,310 --> 00:18:09,030 Speaker 1: our users with all the various options that we have 366 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: and we try to educate them on the best option, 367 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,390 Speaker 1: you know, the best informed choice that suits their personal needs. 368 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 1: So we do give them the option but we give 369 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,129 Speaker 1: users the choice of making 370 00:18:19,140 --> 00:18:23,020 Speaker 1: in the option that suits their needs the best. In fact, 371 00:18:23,030 --> 00:18:25,659 Speaker 1: we are actually coming up with a new kind of 372 00:18:25,660 --> 00:18:30,500 Speaker 1: initiative called instant. By basically we are trying to power 373 00:18:30,500 --> 00:18:34,460 Speaker 1: up secondhand buying and selling. Where we actually provide guarantee 374 00:18:34,470 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 1: for second hand products, fashion products, luxury products and even 375 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:39,420 Speaker 1: like Mobile div 376 00:18:39,430 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: devices for instance by what happens is that we Carousel 377 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:44,699 Speaker 1: we are able to give you a guarantee so slowly, 378 00:18:44,700 --> 00:18:47,460 Speaker 1: slowly we're actually opening up all these different options that 379 00:18:47,470 --> 00:18:49,580 Speaker 1: we give to our users that you can choose, you 380 00:18:49,580 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 1: can choose to buy and sell independently or you can 381 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: do it to us where we actually protect your transaction. 382 00:18:56,050 --> 00:18:58,850 Speaker 1: So these are different things that we're exploring. So when 383 00:18:58,850 --> 00:18:59,710 Speaker 1: you say protect 384 00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:03,500 Speaker 1: I buy, you know a $20,000 watch off carousel or 385 00:19:03,500 --> 00:19:06,180 Speaker 1: I go through this but I don't get my watch. 386 00:19:06,190 --> 00:19:08,869 Speaker 1: Are you telling me that you will refund the money 387 00:19:08,869 --> 00:19:09,830 Speaker 1: I paid? 388 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:11,830 Speaker 1: Yes. So the idea is that we hold on to 389 00:19:11,830 --> 00:19:14,720 Speaker 1: your money so we do have this program going on 390 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,030 Speaker 1: called instant buy luxury where we also ensure that you 391 00:19:18,030 --> 00:19:20,310 Speaker 1: know if the item is not authentic we will give 392 00:19:20,310 --> 00:19:22,970 Speaker 1: you your money back. Okay so you're the middle man, 393 00:19:22,980 --> 00:19:25,820 Speaker 1: does that mean you will check the items authenticate them 394 00:19:25,830 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 1: and if they're not genuine then you won't allow it 395 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:31,720 Speaker 1: to be. So yes for instance by basically this whole 396 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:33,690 Speaker 1: thing that we are trying out at this point we 397 00:19:33,690 --> 00:19:34,790 Speaker 1: do guarantee authentic 398 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:36,830 Speaker 1: city of the products. If not you do get your 399 00:19:36,830 --> 00:19:39,479 Speaker 1: money back. Okay and is this in response to the 400 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,090 Speaker 1: fact that it's happened quite a few times these kind 401 00:19:42,090 --> 00:19:44,790 Speaker 1: of scams for us, it's more of like exploring what 402 00:19:44,790 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: are different things that we can do to kind of 403 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,140 Speaker 1: like maintain our vision of making secondhand the first choice 404 00:19:50,140 --> 00:19:53,020 Speaker 1: but at the same time like protecting our users as well? 405 00:19:53,030 --> 00:19:55,310 Speaker 1: But at the same time your platform is all about 406 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:59,550 Speaker 1: having less regulations and more flexibility and freedom to trade. 407 00:19:59,980 --> 00:20:03,590 Speaker 1: So will this also make it a less friendly platform. 408 00:20:03,590 --> 00:20:06,070 Speaker 1: Are you concerned that people may not want to use it? 409 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,380 Speaker 1: So we are not channeling all transactions through these, what 410 00:20:09,380 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: we've identified is what we call higher risk categories like luxury, 411 00:20:13,050 --> 00:20:16,690 Speaker 1: higher value. There's the authenticity city problems so we give 412 00:20:16,690 --> 00:20:19,699 Speaker 1: users the option you can choose to buy from Stephen 413 00:20:19,700 --> 00:20:20,470 Speaker 1: who created his 414 00:20:20,730 --> 00:20:24,260 Speaker 1: yesterday and listed this LV bag or you can choose 415 00:20:24,260 --> 00:20:26,860 Speaker 1: to buy through instant buy from a seller who we 416 00:20:26,859 --> 00:20:29,860 Speaker 1: have verified who we have a working relationship with so 417 00:20:29,859 --> 00:20:32,300 Speaker 1: we can guarantee that you do get your authentic item. 418 00:20:32,310 --> 00:20:34,410 Speaker 1: If not you get your money back. So in this 419 00:20:34,410 --> 00:20:36,690 Speaker 1: way you're giving it's a bit like yeah the verification 420 00:20:36,690 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: is the key because when we're online it's hard to 421 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:40,940 Speaker 1: know who we're really dealing with, who is 422 00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 1: find that user name, who is behind the item that 423 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:48,440 Speaker 1: is being so john did you ever have different personas 424 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,060 Speaker 1: that you would readily bring to the front depending on 425 00:20:51,060 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: who you're talking to but you want to be the 426 00:20:53,490 --> 00:20:55,449 Speaker 1: good buddy friend that can go for beer. You want 427 00:20:55,450 --> 00:20:58,310 Speaker 1: to be the vulnerable friend who's just broke up with 428 00:20:58,310 --> 00:21:01,860 Speaker 1: his girlfriend. That sort of play into your scheme of things. 429 00:21:01,869 --> 00:21:05,570 Speaker 2: Yes yes I do. It's like a chameleon, I adapt 430 00:21:05,570 --> 00:21:08,260 Speaker 2: myself to whom I'm meeting. 431 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,330 Speaker 2: So let's say if I'm meeting a single man, I'll 432 00:21:11,330 --> 00:21:14,130 Speaker 2: be like a buddy buddy bro bro kind of thing. 433 00:21:14,140 --> 00:21:16,919 Speaker 2: Let's say if I'm meeting a single lady so I 434 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 2: will be nice but not you know forwarding just be 435 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,850 Speaker 2: a friend from there. Like if I meet an elderly couple, 436 00:21:23,859 --> 00:21:26,649 Speaker 2: I'll be like a grandson to them. So like I say, 437 00:21:26,650 --> 00:21:29,430 Speaker 2: I adapt to how or who I am, I'm eating 438 00:21:29,430 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 2: at the point of them, 439 00:21:30,650 --> 00:21:32,580 Speaker 1: john I feel like I really want to meet you 440 00:21:32,580 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 1: in person now to understand who you really are. You 441 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: know 442 00:21:35,770 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 1: what about from your point of view? Did you ever 443 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:42,310 Speaker 1: feel bad doing this at the time when you were 444 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:45,810 Speaker 1: scamming people? Did you ever feel guilty in any way? 445 00:21:45,820 --> 00:21:46,220 Speaker 1: You 446 00:21:46,220 --> 00:21:48,389 Speaker 2: know, at that point there? And then the only thing 447 00:21:48,390 --> 00:21:51,870 Speaker 2: was money because I don't grow up in a family 448 00:21:51,869 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 2: where you were well to do or not. But I 449 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 2: have my circle of friends who are always you know, 450 00:21:56,810 --> 00:22:00,490 Speaker 2: buying the latest sneakers, bank latest things and all. So 451 00:22:00,490 --> 00:22:01,930 Speaker 2: I wanted to fit in. 452 00:22:02,130 --> 00:22:05,669 Speaker 2: So by wanting to fit in this mentality change the 453 00:22:05,670 --> 00:22:09,870 Speaker 2: guilt part never really gone onto you until actually late 454 00:22:09,869 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 2: at night when you want to sleep. You think that 455 00:22:11,609 --> 00:22:15,030 Speaker 2: or I've taken this $20,000 from the couple. What if 456 00:22:15,030 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 2: the couple need this money for an emergency? It does 457 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,619 Speaker 2: creep onto you, but eventually, you know, you drink it off, 458 00:22:21,619 --> 00:22:23,659 Speaker 2: you sleep it off and then the cycle repeats 459 00:22:23,660 --> 00:22:24,350 Speaker 1: itself. 460 00:22:28,619 --> 00:22:29,410 Speaker 2: Hi, my name 461 00:22:29,410 --> 00:22:31,190 Speaker 1: is Sarah Al Khaldi and I'm the host of a 462 00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: new podcast called Money talks yes, we will be talking 463 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,360 Speaker 1: about money, but more than that, we'll also be talking 464 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,490 Speaker 1: about life, personal choices, lucky breaks and how money is 465 00:22:41,490 --> 00:22:44,410 Speaker 1: the thread running through it all? So look out for 466 00:22:44,410 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: our episodes wherever you get your podcasts? 467 00:22:50,180 --> 00:22:53,100 Speaker 1: So we just heard Jessica mentioned some of the measures 468 00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:55,700 Speaker 1: they're taking to help protect customers more. 469 00:22:56,230 --> 00:22:58,300 Speaker 1: Do you think that's going to make a difference? 470 00:22:58,310 --> 00:23:02,490 Speaker 2: It's good that they are putting in place these measures. However, 471 00:23:02,500 --> 00:23:07,470 Speaker 2: scammers are evolving no matter what solutions you come up with, 472 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,830 Speaker 2: they will only sting of a way to go around it. 473 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:15,860 Speaker 2: So eventually, you know both and will be fighting better. 474 00:23:15,869 --> 00:23:19,290 Speaker 2: That's not ending. I mean Jessica but she could input 475 00:23:19,300 --> 00:23:21,780 Speaker 2: a lot of measures to the buyers and the sellers. 476 00:23:21,950 --> 00:23:24,790 Speaker 2: But then if someone wants to scam, they always try 477 00:23:24,790 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 2: to think of a way to go around the system. 478 00:23:27,570 --> 00:23:29,410 Speaker 1: Just one of the timing that so we do have 479 00:23:29,410 --> 00:23:32,660 Speaker 1: Carousel protection at this point whereby users can choose to 480 00:23:32,660 --> 00:23:35,530 Speaker 1: pay through carousel and we hold onto the money and 481 00:23:35,530 --> 00:23:37,450 Speaker 1: they only release the money when they get the item. 482 00:23:37,460 --> 00:23:40,850 Speaker 1: But then the sellers sometimes if they have bad intentions, 483 00:23:40,850 --> 00:23:43,950 Speaker 1: they will say sorry, I don't accept character protection or 484 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: they will say things like okay, if you don't pay 485 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:47,150 Speaker 1: by character protection, I can 486 00:23:47,170 --> 00:23:50,380 Speaker 1: give you maybe $5 off. So these are things that 487 00:23:50,380 --> 00:23:52,830 Speaker 1: they actually entice you with so that you look away 488 00:23:52,830 --> 00:23:55,230 Speaker 1: from the safer choice and feel like internally you have 489 00:23:55,230 --> 00:23:58,100 Speaker 1: to balance right the risk of like is it worth it? 490 00:23:58,109 --> 00:24:00,850 Speaker 1: And then I guess in most cases people do feel 491 00:24:00,850 --> 00:24:03,010 Speaker 1: that it's worth it and then they just go for 492 00:24:03,010 --> 00:24:06,540 Speaker 1: the other choice. So Annabelle, why are we such cheapskates? 493 00:24:06,550 --> 00:24:11,620 Speaker 1: Why are human beings always so taken in by this? 494 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:13,710 Speaker 1: What is too good to be true? But we want 495 00:24:13,710 --> 00:24:14,940 Speaker 1: it to be true 496 00:24:14,950 --> 00:24:17,150 Speaker 2: inflation. 497 00:24:17,619 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 2: I think times are hard. It's not unusual human behavior 498 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 2: because as people, we want to survive and maximizing your benefits, 499 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,490 Speaker 2: getting the most out of something that you can pay for, 500 00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 2: helps in surviving actually increases the chances of survival. So 501 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,679 Speaker 2: from an evolutionary perspective, we are just trying to survive. 502 00:24:38,980 --> 00:24:42,989 Speaker 2: I think being more aware of the reasons or our 503 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:48,020 Speaker 2: own emotions and cognitive processes can actually help to circumvent 504 00:24:48,020 --> 00:24:51,430 Speaker 2: some of these decisions just like johN shared earlier, right? 505 00:24:51,430 --> 00:24:55,990 Speaker 2: I agree that scammers have become very creative and intelligent 506 00:24:55,990 --> 00:24:57,980 Speaker 2: over the last couple of years and they will continue 507 00:24:57,980 --> 00:25:00,619 Speaker 2: to evolve. But the common theme is that they are 508 00:25:00,619 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 2: always 509 00:25:00,850 --> 00:25:04,310 Speaker 2: tugging the heartstrings. So for example, if it's a love 510 00:25:04,310 --> 00:25:07,820 Speaker 2: scam and someone who is lonely or someone who doesn't 511 00:25:07,820 --> 00:25:10,810 Speaker 2: have a very good support system is more likely to 512 00:25:10,810 --> 00:25:13,540 Speaker 2: fall into a love scam more than someone who actually 513 00:25:13,540 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 2: has a healthy support system and does not actually feel this. 514 00:25:17,090 --> 00:25:19,690 Speaker 2: You know, deep sense of loneliness. So if we can 515 00:25:19,700 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 2: identify that that is our primary feeling, 516 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,130 Speaker 2: then perhaps we can start to do something about that 517 00:25:26,130 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 2: feeling by seeking the appropriate support by speaking to people 518 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,090 Speaker 2: by expanding our circle and like john also shared, you know, 519 00:25:34,090 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 2: a lot of times actually for the scammers themselves, it's 520 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,709 Speaker 2: also an issue with the identity 521 00:25:40,270 --> 00:25:43,860 Speaker 2: not different from the people who are being scammed, that 522 00:25:43,859 --> 00:25:46,610 Speaker 2: they want to kind of fit into a certain circle 523 00:25:46,609 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 2: or because of their life circumstances, it precipitates or perpetuates 524 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 2: their decision to become a scammer or to actually buy 525 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:58,540 Speaker 2: these products to fit in. If we are actually more 526 00:25:58,550 --> 00:26:02,400 Speaker 2: aware of these cognitive processes, then perhaps we could take 527 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,050 Speaker 2: a step back and make a healthier decision instead of 528 00:26:05,050 --> 00:26:06,100 Speaker 2: an impulsive one. 529 00:26:06,350 --> 00:26:09,540 Speaker 1: But it's increasingly difficult because when we're interacting with people 530 00:26:09,540 --> 00:26:12,340 Speaker 1: online very often we are in the comfort of our 531 00:26:12,350 --> 00:26:16,460 Speaker 1: homes and probably alone. That's why you're sort of interacting online. 532 00:26:16,470 --> 00:26:19,230 Speaker 1: Let's just start to wrap things up by talking about 533 00:26:19,230 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 1: what can we do? I guess as we look at 534 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,659 Speaker 1: it because most scam stories don't have a good ending. 535 00:26:23,660 --> 00:26:26,220 Speaker 1: You know what starts out as a happy process often 536 00:26:26,220 --> 00:26:30,010 Speaker 1: ends with much disappointment, not just from being cheated, 537 00:26:30,170 --> 00:26:33,190 Speaker 1: but sometimes also from the lack of avenues to get 538 00:26:33,190 --> 00:26:35,830 Speaker 1: any help or to get their money back. And platforms 539 00:26:35,830 --> 00:26:38,740 Speaker 1: usually make it clear that there's no money back guarantee, 540 00:26:38,750 --> 00:26:41,980 Speaker 1: police report going to court, that's only going to do 541 00:26:41,980 --> 00:26:45,629 Speaker 1: so much. So should we just accept that once we 542 00:26:45,630 --> 00:26:46,550 Speaker 1: pay for something 543 00:26:47,150 --> 00:26:49,670 Speaker 1: We should assume that we may never get it back. 544 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:50,939 Speaker 1: So anyway, I'm going to put this to you. I 545 00:26:50,940 --> 00:26:52,530 Speaker 1: mean it's almost like when I go online and pay 546 00:26:52,530 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 1: $2.50 for some mobile phone cable. I know it's really 547 00:26:56,880 --> 00:27:00,100 Speaker 1: cheap and I actually almost assume that I may never 548 00:27:00,100 --> 00:27:03,930 Speaker 1: see the item and that my $2.50 is gone. But 549 00:27:03,940 --> 00:27:06,150 Speaker 1: is that almost a mindset we need to take in 550 00:27:06,150 --> 00:27:07,109 Speaker 1: this day and age. 551 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,870 Speaker 2: Yes. But it depends on the value that you can 552 00:27:10,869 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 2: afford and you attach to it. 553 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 2: If you're willing to kind of gamble with $2.50 and 554 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,619 Speaker 2: then you don't get that cable back then I think 555 00:27:19,619 --> 00:27:22,070 Speaker 2: it's really having to accept that hey, you know I 556 00:27:22,070 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 2: made a gamble and you know it is what it 557 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 2: is and I don't get it back. 558 00:27:26,540 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 2: But if it's like $250,000 but also it's dependent on 559 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 2: life circumstances, right. For some people it might be a 560 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,659 Speaker 2: lot of money but for some others it might be 561 00:27:34,660 --> 00:27:37,270 Speaker 2: spare change and if you feel that you know that's 562 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,300 Speaker 2: actually okay and you can gamble that then you must 563 00:27:40,300 --> 00:27:44,130 Speaker 2: be willing to accept the consequences. I suppose every decision 564 00:27:44,130 --> 00:27:46,700 Speaker 2: has its own set of consequences and you just need 565 00:27:46,700 --> 00:27:49,980 Speaker 2: to weigh the pros and cons and decide which ones 566 00:27:49,990 --> 00:27:50,890 Speaker 2: you want to pick 567 00:27:51,100 --> 00:27:53,710 Speaker 2: In the example of the 2 50 cable. It might 568 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:55,929 Speaker 2: cost you a bit more inconvenience to get to a 569 00:27:55,930 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 2: shop and you have a look at it and then 570 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,540 Speaker 2: you know you travel, you pay it, it might be 571 00:28:00,540 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 2: 2 50 as well, it might be $3 but you 572 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,660 Speaker 2: are trading the convenience for the possibility of not arriving. 573 00:28:07,670 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 2: So kind of put your mind to the pros and 574 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 2: cons and the potential consequences and ask yourself if you 575 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 2: can actually accept it before you make a decision. 576 00:28:15,900 --> 00:28:18,590 Speaker 1: So in a way I'm managing my own expectations, 577 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,330 Speaker 2: but that's saying, you know, if it's too good to 578 00:28:20,330 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 2: be true, it's too good to be true 579 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,790 Speaker 2: and definitely speak to the people around you, the more 580 00:28:25,790 --> 00:28:29,690 Speaker 2: people you speak with, the more data you collect and 581 00:28:29,690 --> 00:28:32,940 Speaker 2: sometimes that really helps you in making your decisions as well. 582 00:28:32,950 --> 00:28:33,290 Speaker 2: So 583 00:28:33,290 --> 00:28:35,129 Speaker 1: sometimes just saying, hey, I want to buy this stuff 584 00:28:35,130 --> 00:28:37,590 Speaker 1: and at this price, what do you think your friend 585 00:28:37,590 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: may say? Come on man, you know, it can't be 586 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,050 Speaker 1: that cheap. Right, what are the gaps then that we 587 00:28:42,050 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: see in this whole ecosystem? And there's a question I 588 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,250 Speaker 1: put to each of you, what do you think is 589 00:28:46,250 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: missing That could really help people 590 00:28:48,550 --> 00:28:52,870 Speaker 1: understand how these things work, how to prevent themselves from 591 00:28:52,870 --> 00:28:56,220 Speaker 1: getting scammed Jessica. If we talk about businesses, you know, 592 00:28:56,230 --> 00:28:59,370 Speaker 1: what would you ask businesses to do better as we 593 00:28:59,370 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: try to build features to give users signals, right? Like 594 00:29:03,050 --> 00:29:06,130 Speaker 1: we have reviews, you can review and account reviews before 595 00:29:06,130 --> 00:29:07,870 Speaker 1: deciding to buy from this person, 596 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:11,540 Speaker 1: you can check the verification status of a person. I 597 00:29:11,540 --> 00:29:14,580 Speaker 1: strongly feel that education is key and you know, we 598 00:29:14,580 --> 00:29:16,750 Speaker 1: do try to play our part in educating our users 599 00:29:16,750 --> 00:29:20,170 Speaker 1: through education campaigns. Pop ups at different points of the 600 00:29:20,170 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: app where we feel that they are more vulnerable. So 601 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,780 Speaker 1: for example, we always encourage our users to deal within 602 00:29:25,780 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: the app instead of bringing the check to WhatsApp. 603 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: In this case, if the other party is suspended, you 604 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:32,620 Speaker 1: know that this person is suspended and that you would 605 00:29:32,620 --> 00:29:35,250 Speaker 1: stop dealing with this person, but if the conversation is 606 00:29:35,250 --> 00:29:38,110 Speaker 1: brought to WhatsApp and the character account is suspended, you 607 00:29:38,110 --> 00:29:41,900 Speaker 1: would still maintain that communication with the scammer and then 608 00:29:41,900 --> 00:29:43,780 Speaker 1: you wouldn't know that all this person has already been 609 00:29:43,780 --> 00:29:44,780 Speaker 1: taken action on. 610 00:29:44,970 --> 00:29:47,050 Speaker 1: So at different points of our apps. So for example, 611 00:29:47,050 --> 00:29:49,540 Speaker 1: we didn't chat. If we sense that the user is 612 00:29:49,540 --> 00:29:53,070 Speaker 1: bringing this conversation out of carousel, we will actually surface 613 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,610 Speaker 1: warning message to say that hey, please keep your transactions 614 00:29:56,610 --> 00:30:00,410 Speaker 1: within carousel. But education in general is two ways. We 615 00:30:00,410 --> 00:30:03,490 Speaker 1: show these messages to our users, but sometimes they still 616 00:30:03,490 --> 00:30:05,820 Speaker 1: decide to bring the transactions on our platform 617 00:30:06,070 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 1: in general. Also we also ask our users to do 618 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,790 Speaker 1: their due diligence and you know, basically don't be complacent 619 00:30:11,790 --> 00:30:14,330 Speaker 1: and to be a discerning by a lot but john 620 00:30:14,330 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: this is bad news, right, Because you want people to 621 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: get personal, you want them to think you're their friend 622 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,220 Speaker 1: and what advice would you have for people now that 623 00:30:23,220 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: you're on the other side of the coin. You know 624 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,620 Speaker 1: having been a scammer before. What would you tell people? 625 00:30:29,070 --> 00:30:33,050 Speaker 2: I agree with what Jessica writing ability like Of course one, 626 00:30:33,050 --> 00:30:35,890 Speaker 2: education is key and number two is like the support 627 00:30:35,890 --> 00:30:38,450 Speaker 2: you have. But you have to ask yourself before you 628 00:30:38,450 --> 00:30:42,030 Speaker 2: make any decisions. Usually trust your instinct and your instinct 629 00:30:42,030 --> 00:30:44,350 Speaker 2: is usually right. If something is just too good to 630 00:30:44,350 --> 00:30:45,740 Speaker 2: be true, it's too good to be true. 631 00:30:45,950 --> 00:30:48,860 Speaker 2: And also the thing is asked for maybe a second 632 00:30:48,860 --> 00:30:53,110 Speaker 2: opinion from someone close or maybe a friend, maybe your parents. 633 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:57,110 Speaker 2: I mean that way you don't succumb to being scammed 634 00:30:57,110 --> 00:30:59,900 Speaker 2: by others. Usually most people get scammed is because they 635 00:30:59,900 --> 00:31:02,690 Speaker 2: make decision there and then on their own. So it's 636 00:31:02,690 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 2: very impulsive of them. They don't stop and more careful 637 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,490 Speaker 2: in the way they are. Think so maybe adopting a 638 00:31:09,490 --> 00:31:13,190 Speaker 2: system two thinking would be good for people to start with. 639 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: And I guess anabel that's where you would come in. 640 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:15,650 Speaker 1: Are there 641 00:31:15,890 --> 00:31:19,830 Speaker 1: any mind games that we can almost teach ourselves? So 642 00:31:19,830 --> 00:31:22,940 Speaker 1: the moment I'm facing I think, okay first take a 643 00:31:22,940 --> 00:31:25,410 Speaker 1: breath and think about A. B. C. I 644 00:31:25,410 --> 00:31:28,630 Speaker 2: think the reality is because it's an evolving game right? 645 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,430 Speaker 2: It will always be a challenge to beat the scammers 646 00:31:31,430 --> 00:31:33,980 Speaker 2: and to be able to get ahead of them and 647 00:31:33,980 --> 00:31:37,450 Speaker 2: because it's difficult to get ahead of them. I wonder 648 00:31:37,450 --> 00:31:40,250 Speaker 2: if the best strategy here is to wait. 649 00:31:40,670 --> 00:31:43,700 Speaker 2: We also know that when something is time limited, when 650 00:31:43,700 --> 00:31:48,010 Speaker 2: something is rare, it increases our feelings of I really 651 00:31:48,010 --> 00:31:50,420 Speaker 2: need to have it, I really want to have it. 652 00:31:50,430 --> 00:31:54,620 Speaker 2: You know, it's exactly what we tell our Children wait. 653 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,290 Speaker 2: You know, do you need it or do you want it? 654 00:31:58,300 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 2: So you have to wait. And then in that waiting, 655 00:32:01,130 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 2: collect more information, find out a little bit more about 656 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,620 Speaker 2: the person that you're dealing with. Find out a little 657 00:32:06,620 --> 00:32:09,210 Speaker 2: bit about the identity of this person, whether this person 658 00:32:09,210 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 2: has a long enough track record or find out a 659 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,810 Speaker 2: little bit more about this so called new friends environment. 660 00:32:16,820 --> 00:32:20,350 Speaker 2: So collect more data, especially if your outgoings are going 661 00:32:20,350 --> 00:32:21,490 Speaker 2: to be very high 662 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,020 Speaker 2: and you can always wait before you make a decision. 663 00:32:25,030 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 2: So wait and just assess the situation first. Right? Then decide. Well, 664 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,610 Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on today and for 665 00:32:33,610 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: sharing these thoughts with us. I think at the end 666 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:37,590 Speaker 1: of the day, we all know it's in our human 667 00:32:37,590 --> 00:32:39,170 Speaker 1: nature to want to have a good deal. But I 668 00:32:39,170 --> 00:32:42,260 Speaker 1: think some good advice there just take a moment to 669 00:32:42,270 --> 00:32:44,940 Speaker 1: think it through, ask a friend and who knows the 670 00:32:44,940 --> 00:32:47,390 Speaker 1: good deal may not just be so great after all. 671 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:48,410 Speaker 1: Thank you for your time. 672 00:32:50,830 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 1: Do check out our podcast offerings on the Sienna website 673 00:32:53,570 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 1: under the listen tab and also follow us so that 674 00:32:57,090 --> 00:33:00,370 Speaker 1: you know, when a new episode drops, get in touch 675 00:33:00,370 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 1: with us if you want to share ideas or give 676 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:07,010 Speaker 1: any feedback, the team behind this podcast, Audrey one, Jacqueline, Chan, 677 00:33:07,020 --> 00:33:10,370 Speaker 1: Daniel Lee and Christina Robert and I'm Stephen Chair, I'll 678 00:33:10,370 --> 00:33:11,190 Speaker 1: see you next week.