Speaker 1: Hi, Tazo. Hey to
Speaker 1: Zura and I'm Jermaine and welcome back to another episode
Speaker 1: of Clarity, Hush
Speaker 1: Man. You guys loved this previous episode so much about
Speaker 1: unrequited love and bread crumbing. Y'all like ate it like
Speaker 1: bread crumbs that we had to bring her back on
Speaker 1: the show. Please. Welcome. Yet again. It's no, Adam.
Speaker 1: Thank you so
Speaker 2: much. Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 1: Oh my God, today's topic. I can't believe we've never
Speaker 1: spoken about it. I am sweating. I am the president
Speaker 1: of today's topic. So I'm really looking forward to. But
Speaker 1: what have you been up to since we last saw you? Wow.
Speaker 2: I
Speaker 2: think I've just been busy with like client work, organizing workshops, events.
Speaker 2: It's something that I'm very passionate about.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm going strong, you know, in the area
Speaker 2: of like trauma recovery work, people who are heartbroken, people
Speaker 2: who feel abandoned. I'm like, that's where I come in.
Speaker 2: I help you out in your journey.
Speaker 1: I
Speaker 1: love that. Yeah. Make sure you follow her at the
Speaker 1: good life underscore therapy. Now, today's topic, it is about jealousy. OK.
Speaker 1: Would you
Speaker 1: say that you girls are jealous when it comes to
Speaker 1: being in a relationship. Are you jealous? Girls? I feel
Speaker 1: like we need a skill for this 1 to 1010
Speaker 1: being the most jealous. I think. I'm like, at a five. Like,
Speaker 1: I am confident in myself. I wouldn't call myself like
Speaker 1: an over jealous partner but sometimes certain things, you know,
Speaker 1: still be jealous. I just for the young, you know,
Speaker 1: ok, we'll get into that. Like, what makes hazel, you know, like,
Speaker 1: triggered when it comes to jealousy. What
Speaker 1: about you? No, I guess so.
Speaker 2: Like, you know, in my past relationships I've had had
Speaker 2: experiences where I did feel jealousy but I think at
Speaker 2: that point in time I didn't know it was like
Speaker 2: jealousy but I just felt like it just felt off when,
Speaker 2: you know, something happened.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think the more I, I deep dive
Speaker 2: into this work, you know, being a therapist and just
Speaker 2: discover a bit more. I'm like, oh, that was me
Speaker 2: being jealous. I didn't know that.
Speaker 1: What about you? Now? Then on a scale of 1
Speaker 1: to 10
Speaker 2: I
Speaker 2: think, because I've not been in a relationship in a
Speaker 2: while as well. So I would not know in the
Speaker 2: context of, like, romantic relationships. But if you want to
Speaker 2: talk about, like,
Speaker 2: I think I'm like a two or three, I'm sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Ok. Yes. I used to think I was like
Speaker 1: a minus two or like a zero. Yeah. Recently I
Speaker 1: think I've discovered that I might be like a two
Speaker 1: or three. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I'm a bit. So. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I do think that there's nothing to be jealous about
Speaker 1: when, when the emotions are not as strong. I think
Speaker 1: emotions really exacerbate the feeling of jealousy. So, I think
Speaker 1: for me I would put myself as a 10. Let's just,
Speaker 1: let's just go straight there for the honesty. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Let's just go straight there. Right. I'm working on it though.
Speaker 1: I'm working on it maybe now some days I'm an
Speaker 1: eight year old,
Speaker 1: but today we're specifically talking about not just jealousy in
Speaker 1: a relationship, not just like, oh, you know, your boyfriend,
Speaker 1: like the girl's photo on Instagram, stupid things like that.
Speaker 1: But we're talking about retroactive jealousy. What does that mean? No,
Speaker 2: I
Speaker 2: think retroactive jealousy, it
Speaker 2: is something is very fascinating because it's a specific type
Speaker 2: of jealousy that deals with you focusing on your partner's
Speaker 2: past specifically, they are, you know, past romantic relationships, right?
Speaker 2: So when we're talking about general jealousy, it's got to
Speaker 2: do with like prison related circumstances. So for example, you're
Speaker 2: at a party with a boyfriend and a girl comes along,
Speaker 2: she starts flirting with their boyfriend. So you start to
Speaker 2: feel
Speaker 1: like
Speaker 1: I just wish
Speaker 1: right? And
Speaker 2: jealous that's present jealousy, right? So you start feeling something
Speaker 2: on the inside unease and yeah, you feel jealous. So
Speaker 2: that's you responding to current behaviors, current actions. But retroactive
Speaker 2: jealousy is a complete opposite of that. It's you feeling
Speaker 2: that sense of jealousy, but it is in response to
Speaker 2: something that is in the past, it is not happening
Speaker 2: in the here and now it's not based on current,
Speaker 2: current behavior. And it's very interesting because this often puts
Speaker 2: a lot of people in this state of confusion of
Speaker 2: like what is going on. And you know, if I
Speaker 2: could give an example, an analogy, right? It's like you
Speaker 2: stumbling upon your partner's old photo album, right? And in
Speaker 2: this photo album, it shows his history. So it's way
Speaker 2: before he met you, it shows snapshots of like memories, moments,
Speaker 2: experience
Speaker 2: of the people he's been with in his past life
Speaker 2: before he met you, right? So you take a look
Speaker 2: at this photo album and instead of looking at those
Speaker 2: snapshots as, oh, you know, these are past chapters in
Speaker 2: his life, he's been through that and it has shaped
Speaker 2: who he is today instead of looking at it that
Speaker 2: way you go zoom in to specific chapters and it's
Speaker 2: specific of my life. Am I talking about
Speaker 2: TV, of my life? But yeah, you zoom into specific
Speaker 2: romantic chapters, you know that he has been involved in
Speaker 2: and your mind goes into this very interesting spiral, right?
Speaker 2: You look at those chapters and you start wondering like
Speaker 2: is he really over her? Does he still think about her?
Speaker 2: You know what's going on there? And again, it is
Speaker 2: very exhausting, dealing with these sort of feelings, especially if
Speaker 2: you don't know
Speaker 2: what's going on in terms of.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I do think like this retroactive jealousy is a
Speaker 1: beast of its own because it's not something that's happening
Speaker 1: right now. So you're like, is it real, like, why
Speaker 1: am I feeling these things if it's not happening right now?
Speaker 1: This is in the past and everyone will say, but
Speaker 1: it's in the past. What do you bring up the past?
Speaker 1: And that's the challenge of it. And I think it's
Speaker 1: very confusing because you don't really know what's going on.
Speaker 1: You don't know why you feel that way. I'm just
Speaker 1: trying to speak for you. Thank you.
Speaker 1: I feel hurt and I think you don't really know
Speaker 1: what to do with it either because if you voice
Speaker 1: it or you throw a tantrum, it's unfair. Correct. Correct.
Speaker 1: And you understand that you also have a past but
Speaker 1: like you're being unfair but you can't help it. Correct? Ok.
Speaker 1: Interesting because I've never come across this term, retroactive jealousy
Speaker 1: and just don't want to read it myself. Five, I
Speaker 1: would think the bulk of it is this retroactive, retroactive jealousy.
Speaker 1: So let's say I'm in a relationship. I would like to,
Speaker 1: it's a bad habit.
Speaker 1: I'll ask my partner, what are your past relationships? Like
Speaker 1: then after he shares with me because he views it
Speaker 1: as an open, honest communication. Now, I get a bit upset.
Speaker 1: That's true. So, so when I first got together with
Speaker 1: my partner, we were like, ok, you know, we've both
Speaker 1: had past, let's be 1000% honest with each other about
Speaker 1: every single detail of my past. That idea. And then
Speaker 1: now we're seeing a therapist for good reason and the
Speaker 1: therapist is like, that's such a shitty idea. Why would
Speaker 1: you guys do that?
Speaker 1: Why would you all do that? We're like, it's too late.
Speaker 1: We already know everything. Yeah, it's too late. And I
Speaker 1: think retroactive jealousy focuses on this very unhealthy preoccupation with
Speaker 1: your partner's past, who they dated, who they slept with,
Speaker 1: who they hung out with, who they texted, you know,
Speaker 1: whatever it is. I remember I was at his mom's
Speaker 1: home and she loves keeping photos everywhere, photo frames. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, looking, looking and I feel like I knew
Speaker 1: what I was looking for, but I wasn't, I was
Speaker 1: just like, oh, so nice. Oh, your brother's wedding? I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, who's this girl?
Speaker 1: I was like, how is this girl? He's like, oh,
Speaker 1: that's my ex. I was like, oh, a photo of
Speaker 1: your ex in your mom's home? Ok.
Speaker 1: And I walk away and I heard my own feelings
Speaker 1: for what, but what do you do about the photo?
Speaker 1: I it's in his mom's home. Of course, it's just
Speaker 1: that photo frame is to celebrate his brother's wedding. That's
Speaker 1: the point of the photo frame. But yes, back to
Speaker 1: retroactive jealousy where does it come from? Does it come
Speaker 1: from a feeling of like I'm not enough because that's
Speaker 1: what people say, oh, your self worth
Speaker 1: is not enough.
Speaker 2: And that's one of them, right? When we're talking about
Speaker 2: retroactive jealousy, it often stems from a place of unfinished,
Speaker 2: unprocessed emotions, you know, in the past and now it's
Speaker 2: being replayed in the present moment in an attempt to
Speaker 2: reconcile something that has got to do with, you know, old, hurt,
Speaker 2: old wounds. And I feel that it is important for
Speaker 2: us to get to the root cause and the origin
Speaker 2: of what is causing retroactive jealousy to be there. And
Speaker 2: I feel that you can get curious about two key
Speaker 2: stages here. One is the childhood experience, right? And the
Speaker 2: other one is the later developmental years. So for the
Speaker 2: first part, the childhood experience get curious about, you know,
Speaker 2: what do you go through as a child? What was
Speaker 2: your family dynamics? Like? Were there certain things that you
Speaker 2: were struggling with as a child that you didn't really
Speaker 2: have the opportunity to talk about it? Maybe as a child,
Speaker 2: you grew up in an environment where your parents were
Speaker 2: there physically but emotionally they were checked out, maybe they
Speaker 2: were constantly busy with work, maybe they themselves were struggling
Speaker 2: emotionally mentally. And because of that they couldn't
Speaker 2: have the capacity to be with you in the way
Speaker 2: that you want them to.
Speaker 1: How does
Speaker 1: that manifest? Like how does that link to, you know,
Speaker 1: retroactive
Speaker 1: jealousy?
Speaker 2: Because what you've been exposed to as a child, it
Speaker 2: becomes your very programming, it becomes your belief system on
Speaker 2: what you know about the world, about what you know
Speaker 2: about love, what you know about relationships, what you know
Speaker 2: about how to cope with difficult emotions, let's say you
Speaker 2: were in an environment where your parents were constantly not there, right? There.
Speaker 2: Is there
Speaker 2: elements of emotional neglect. So you learned on how to
Speaker 2: have to deal with your emotions on your own, right?
Speaker 2: Because you feel like, you know, if I cannot depend
Speaker 2: on my parents to be there for me and I'm
Speaker 2: struggling on my own, something needs to be done. So
Speaker 2: in a way, you've learned these adaptation sort of strategies
Speaker 2: in order to cope with the inner conflicts and in
Speaker 2: the pain that you're dealing. Like let's say if you
Speaker 2: grew up in an environment where there's a lot of chaos,
Speaker 2: a lot of fighting going on between your parents, maybe
Speaker 2: you witness a separate
Speaker 2: of your your parents divorce. So what happens is that
Speaker 2: you learn as a kid that it is not safe
Speaker 2: to be there in the environment, it's not safe to
Speaker 2: express your own emotions and your needs because other people's
Speaker 2: needs mattered more. You need to make sure that you
Speaker 2: need to know exactly what other people needed in order
Speaker 2: for them to give you peace, right? So you learn
Speaker 2: to take on the role of the peacemaker, the mediator,
Speaker 2: the emotional caretaker, you know, the adult in the family
Speaker 2: and these
Speaker 2: are enormous roles for any kid to carry. It basically
Speaker 2: denies you the opportunity to experience childhood. Right? If you
Speaker 2: had to take on these roles early on as a child,
Speaker 2: you basically didn't have time to be a child, to
Speaker 2: be the carefree kid, to be curious to have fun
Speaker 2: to play because you had to do other serious stuff
Speaker 2: and you didn't
Speaker 1: form secure attachment. Exactly. She's talking to me. Yeah. Sorry,
Speaker 1: sorry you OK. I'm ok.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very true. I think, you know, all these
Speaker 1: things as Children shape us into what we are now.
Speaker 1: And I think the problem with retroactive jealousy is a
Speaker 1: lot of people think like, oh, it's that overly attached girlfriend,
Speaker 1: you know, it's a crazy girlfriend, right? It's the girlfriend
Speaker 1: who is like, so jealous. But I do think it
Speaker 1: afflicts guys as well.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Have you seen that?
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely. I feel like when we're talking about jealousy,
Speaker 2: retroactive or otherwise it is something that is often portrayed as,
Speaker 2: as a more female trait, right? And I feel it
Speaker 2: touches on a very profound cultural bias. You know, we
Speaker 2: see this in movies, TV, shows, we see this in
Speaker 2: pop songs, social media. There are these terms that have
Speaker 2: been tossed around, like for example, psycho ex-girlfriend, drama queen diva,
Speaker 2: possessive stalkerish and all of these labels are associated around
Speaker 2: women experiencing jealousy. And the problem with that is that
Speaker 2: with these stereotypes, it
Speaker 2: causes a lot of issues for people experiencing it because
Speaker 2: for men, right, they have this cultural expectation where they
Speaker 2: need to be the strong one, the secure one, the
Speaker 2: put together the calm one. When there is this cultural
Speaker 2: expectation for them to live up to that, when they
Speaker 2: feel jealousy arise, it's natural for them to go. Oh,
Speaker 2: I should not say it because I don't want to
Speaker 2: be labeled as insecure or petty or controlling. And then
Speaker 2: for the women because they know that is that
Speaker 2: stigma out there to feel jealousy again because they don't
Speaker 2: want to be judged. They don't want to be labeled,
Speaker 2: they keep it in, you know, when jealousy does arise.
Speaker 1: On
Speaker 1: the contrary, I feel like women are more, we tend
Speaker 1: to express jealousy more because we know in a certain
Speaker 1: way we can,
Speaker 2: it's ok.
Speaker 1: It's
Speaker 1: ok. Yes. And I feel like it would be ok
Speaker 1: for women to approach their partners in the relationship to
Speaker 1: speak about this. But what are some signs of retroactive
Speaker 1: jealousy in the relationship?
Speaker 2: I would say for the person who is experiencing retroactive jealousy.
Speaker 2: One of the things that you would notice is that
Speaker 2: you get caught in this obsessive loop, you tend to
Speaker 2: ruminate a lot. Your thoughts go wild. Basically, you want
Speaker 2: to go into that space of wanting to know every
Speaker 2: single detail of what happened in your partner's romantic past.
Speaker 2: And if you can't either, like you want to know,
Speaker 2: but you don't want to know. Yes. It's kind of
Speaker 2: this weird tug of war, weird dilemma that's happening. You know, cognitively,
Speaker 2: like rationally if you go there, it's going to cause
Speaker 2: a lot of hurt for yourself. But you can't help
Speaker 2: but want to go there and to find out for yourself.
Speaker 2: Because again, is this adaptive strategy is this self soothing
Speaker 2: mechanism that you have developed from early on in order
Speaker 2: to soothe that discomfort that you're feeling on the inside.
Speaker 2: What we need to understand about retroactive jealousy is that
Speaker 2: that is just a presenting problem, right? If I would
Speaker 2: have given an analogy of an iceberg, if you are
Speaker 2: the boat here above the water
Speaker 2: line, what you see is just above the water line
Speaker 2: and that's at the tip of the iceberg. So that's
Speaker 2: where retroactive jealousy lies. And what is beneath the water
Speaker 2: line is all the stuff, the narrative, our life scripts,
Speaker 2: our belief system, our hurts our pains, our insecurities, all
Speaker 2: of that is below the water line. And that is
Speaker 2: what we need to get to the root cause we
Speaker 2: need to get there to heal those parts in order
Speaker 2: to heal this obsessive cycle that we keep going into. So,
Speaker 2: number one is this obsession.
Speaker 2: Number two, because you are so obsessed about the past,
Speaker 2: it pulls you away from being in the present
Speaker 1: so true. It's like sometimes it's like, you know, there's
Speaker 1: so much good that's happening in the present. But you're like,
Speaker 1: so focused on, oh, this happened in the past and
Speaker 1: then you become so negative and like, resentful question for Jeremy.
Speaker 1: If you could turn time back, would you still have
Speaker 1: that discussion with your partner? Like understanding? Yeah. Correct.
Speaker 1: Each other's past. Every single relationship you've been in. Would
Speaker 1: you still want to know at this current point? I
Speaker 1: haven't healed yet. So I would still want to know. But,
Speaker 1: but I'm hoping to get to a point where, like,
Speaker 1: I don't even need to know. And the interesting thing
Speaker 1: is that we talked about how it mostly, you know,
Speaker 1: they say like, oh, only women are jealous of their
Speaker 1: partner's past. But so when we first got into a relationship, actually,
Speaker 1: we were both experience
Speaker 1: very strong levels of retroactive jealousy and so much that
Speaker 1: it really impacted our daily lives. Like, you know, hands
Speaker 1: were threatened to be thrown and stuff like that, which
Speaker 1: is very unhealthy. But for him, well, he's also got
Speaker 1: 12 years on me. Right. And he's been working on
Speaker 1: himself a much longer time. He actually managed to, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't say recover but cope with it a lot quicker
Speaker 1: than I have been. I'm still stuck there. But he's
Speaker 1: like he's dealt with it and
Speaker 1: now he's on the other side. So I'm looking to
Speaker 1: get there and if you're listening. You're like, I also
Speaker 1: want to get there. We ask. No. OK. Don't worry,
Speaker 1: that's coming. That's coming. I have a question. So you
Speaker 1: were saying that, you know, everybody has baggage, right? And
Speaker 1: everybody has this like whole eyes but below the surface
Speaker 1: that can't be seen, you know, all this hurt trauma, whatever,
Speaker 1: but it's different for each person but everybody has it.
Speaker 1: So does that mean that it comes out in different
Speaker 1: shapes and form? And
Speaker 1: one of it is retroactive Jezzy.
Speaker 2: Yes. Absolutely. Our pains, our unresolved pains, they will find
Speaker 2: its way on how to let itself be known. So,
Speaker 2: one of the ways it could be retroactive jealousy for
Speaker 2: some is because they're dealing with so much suppression, it
Speaker 2: comes in a form of depression, anxiety, mood disorders, you know,
Speaker 2: procrastination and this list could actually go on.
Speaker 1: So, what you're saying is that retroactive jealousy doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: mean that you're actually jealous of your partner's past. It
Speaker 1: could be a whole different underlying issue that is coming
Speaker 1: out as this.
Speaker 2: It is that past your partner's past romantic relationships as
Speaker 2: triggering and revisiting old wounds inside of you, right? The
Speaker 2: the unresolved fears, insecurities, childhood wounds and what we know
Speaker 2: about unresolved wounds
Speaker 2: is that it resides in the unconscious mind and body.
Speaker 2: So the unconscious is this hidden storage system inside of
Speaker 2: you that holds the emotional blueprint of past events. So
Speaker 2: it holds all the hurts, right? The emotions, the sensations,
Speaker 2: the memories of the times that you felt frightened, overwhelmed, abandoned, traumatized.
Speaker 2: So it's all inside there. And the work that we
Speaker 2: need to do is to be able to revisit safely
Speaker 2: these parts inside of us that's stored in that dark
Speaker 2: hidden storage and to be able to bring it up
Speaker 2: to that conscious layer. So that when it comes up,
Speaker 2: when we get triggered, we are aware that this is
Speaker 2: happening right now. I feel that one of the things
Speaker 2: that's so important for us to know to reduce this
Speaker 2: crazy confusion and frustration we're feeling right now is whenever
Speaker 2: it comes up, it's for us to understand this trigger,
Speaker 2: this jealousy that we're feeling, is it coming from present
Speaker 2: circumstances
Speaker 2: or is it coming from something in the past? Because
Speaker 2: when you don't know whether it's from the past or present,
Speaker 2: present past, it becomes mushed up, it becomes so confusing
Speaker 2: and you don't know even where to start in terms
Speaker 2: of your healing journey. But when you're able to take
Speaker 2: that step back to really reflect and see where is
Speaker 2: it coming from? If you see that is majority of
Speaker 2: it is coming from the past, then you know, that's
Speaker 2: the work that you need to get into when you
Speaker 2: know that it's coming from a prison that can be
Speaker 2: communicated
Speaker 2: and worked out with your partner more effectively?
Speaker 1: I
Speaker 1: believe I've seen research that says that a sign of
Speaker 1: retroactive jealousy when you find that you are unable to
Speaker 1: engage in sexual intercourse with your partner. Why does it
Speaker 1: get that
Speaker 2: serious?
Speaker 1: Does it get there?
Speaker 2: Because at the end of the day, it deals with intimacy, right?
Speaker 2: If at the end of the day, you have so
Speaker 2: much of this unresolved wounds on the inside, the fear
Speaker 2: is insecurities. So what that means is that your own
Speaker 2: relationship with your
Speaker 2: self, it doesn't feel secure, it doesn't feel intimate, right?
Speaker 2: And we tend to project whatever is going on inside.
Speaker 2: So if we ourselves find it hard to be intimate
Speaker 2: and vulnerable with ourselves, it makes sense that we are
Speaker 2: trying to be intimate and vulnerable with our partners, it's
Speaker 2: going to feel so hard, so unfamiliar and so awkward
Speaker 2: and foreign.
Speaker 1: So this is not even like, you know, I don't
Speaker 1: trust my partner. It could even be, I don't trust myself. Exactly.
Speaker 1: Sounds like a very deep problem. Work out. And you know,
Speaker 1: what makes it so much worse these days is social
Speaker 1: media freaking social media. You know, it's such a great
Speaker 1: thing to exist, but it's also the bane of everyone's
Speaker 1: existence because it almost amplifies and it feeds into that
Speaker 1: retroactive jealousy on social media. If you want to find something,
Speaker 1: you know what digital footprint is, right? If you want
Speaker 1: to find something, you will find something and for someone
Speaker 1: with retroactive jealousy, it's
Speaker 1: like a treasure trove of, you know, forget the photo albums.
Speaker 1: Let's look at Instagram. Oh, my goodness. How do you
Speaker 1: deal with that?
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, it's not easy when we're talking about
Speaker 2: the internet. I mean, while it provides us with this
Speaker 2: beautiful tool for us to connect with people all over
Speaker 2: the world, it's so convenient. We can get so much
Speaker 2: information just with a couple of clicks. I would say
Speaker 2: that for someone who is struggling with retroactive jersey. Oh
Speaker 2: my God. It's the biggest nightmare ever because what it
Speaker 2: does is that it indulges
Speaker 2: in this obsession. The obsession with comparing of yourself with
Speaker 2: your partner's exes, the obsession in wanting to dig up
Speaker 2: all the information possible in order for you to feel
Speaker 2: this sense of security on the inside. You know, in
Speaker 2: the past way before the internet existed, mail mail days, right?
Speaker 2: You don't, you don't have like Instagram, social media if
Speaker 2: you wanted to indulge in the obsession, probably like, you know,
Speaker 2: a snail mail physical stalking were probably your own options.
Speaker 2: And
Speaker 2: you ask me, it's so much effort to do that.
Speaker 2: And if your partner's ex stayed somewhere like on the
Speaker 2: other side of the globe, you had to buy a
Speaker 2: plane ticket to fly all the way there to check
Speaker 2: out like what she's doing over there. So I think
Speaker 2: that the internet had really lowered the barrier to entry
Speaker 2: to indulge in this obsession. And I feel that yes,
Speaker 2: the internet is beautiful. It comes with its convenience, but
Speaker 2: it also comes with a cost because what it does,
Speaker 2: it denies
Speaker 2: the opportunity to sit with what is really the one
Speaker 2: that's causing you the problem instead right now you have
Speaker 2: all these instant gratification tools.
Speaker 1: The ironic thing is it's not even gratifying. Most times
Speaker 1: when you go down the rabbit hole, you come out
Speaker 1: feeling more
Speaker 1: shit.
Speaker 2: But in that moment you feel that sense of reliever.
Speaker 2: I know
Speaker 1: like a drug, it's like a drug is right? That
Speaker 1: you have to know you also. No, OK, you no scratching.
Speaker 1: I'm the only one
Speaker 1: I have a question. So when people go down this
Speaker 1: rabbit hole, right? For example, they're stalking, they're finding every
Speaker 1: information about the exes and all that are they actually
Speaker 1: trying to compare themselves and trying to find some value
Speaker 1: to themselves by, you know, trying to figure out their flaws.
Speaker 1: Are they trying to, you know, just pick on that
Speaker 1: person and just make themselves feel
Speaker 1: better?
Speaker 2: Absolutely. It is a tool to gain that external validation
Speaker 2: to kind of reinforce the belief that ok, you know,
Speaker 2: I am enough, I am enough as I am, right?
Speaker 2: Because
Speaker 2: it is coming from a wound that does not feel enough.
Speaker 2: So that wound has learned that in order for me
Speaker 2: to feel enough, I need this external validation in order
Speaker 2: to tell me
Speaker 1: otherwise, when
Speaker 1: you treat your clients who have retroactive jealousy, what does
Speaker 1: that look like? What are your clients struggling
Speaker 1: with?
Speaker 2: I think a lot of them, they do struggle with
Speaker 2: a lot of childhood trauma related matters. So I think,
Speaker 2: you know what I shared earlier, there are two key
Speaker 2: stages to it, which is the childhood experience and also
Speaker 2: the later developmental years. So the rule of thumb is
Speaker 2: the earlier and more frequent the event that is frightening
Speaker 2: and traumatic for you, the larger it leaves the imprint
Speaker 2: on you. And that in a way, it gets a
Speaker 2: bit harder to kind of navigate through the wound because
Speaker 2: it's so deeply ingrained. Since childhood, you went through series
Speaker 2: and experiences that made you feel not good enough, right?
Speaker 2: That made you feel unlovable, abandoned and rejected. And then
Speaker 2: later on in life, you experience something similar, maybe you
Speaker 2: got cheated by your boyfriend, you got abandoned and ghosted
Speaker 2: by
Speaker 2: your close friend by a colleague. So all of these experiences,
Speaker 2: it adds on to the same layer of pain, right?
Speaker 2: It echoes the same familiar pain of I am not enough.
Speaker 2: I'm unwanted. I'm unworthy of love this world that I'm
Speaker 2: in feels very unsafe. And because of that, I need
Speaker 2: to put, you know, my walls really high so that
Speaker 2: I can protect myself from not feeling hurt again.
Speaker 1: Well, this sounds linked
Speaker 1: to a story that I'm about to share with all
Speaker 1: of you here. Maybe you can offer some insight into
Speaker 1: the mental perspective of this person experiencing retroactive
Speaker 1: jealousy. Ok. So interestingly, the title of her story is
Speaker 1: why can't she just get married? Ok. So this is
Speaker 1: written by a female online user. She says that her
Speaker 1: retroactive jealousy has been triggered around only one of her
Speaker 1: husband's exes his most significant relationship before ours. And this
Speaker 1: is because of a few reasons. Number one, he was
Speaker 1: still so about the breakup when he started dating, which
Speaker 1: is in my honest opinion, the red flag. OK. Number two,
Speaker 1: his ex is six years younger than her and she
Speaker 1: believes that his ex is more attractive because she's younger. Right?
Speaker 1: And number three, the ex shares more in common with
Speaker 1: her husband in terms of hobbies and last, but not
Speaker 1: least the husband and the ex have been broken up
Speaker 1: for more than three years and she is still with
Speaker 1: the guy she left him for, but they have not
Speaker 1: taken the next few steps in their relationship, meaning the
Speaker 1: ex and the new guy have not gotten the house together,
Speaker 1: have not gotten married. So this user stalks the ex
Speaker 1: every time to see if she's getting married because she
Speaker 1: feels like only when the ex has gotten married, she
Speaker 1: would feel
Speaker 1: secure. Like, ok, now she's officially off the shelves. I
Speaker 1: can have the husband to myself and then you think
Speaker 1: nothing can happen just because she's married. That is true. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I feel like the problem stems from the female
Speaker 1: user herself. Not so much of the act and this
Speaker 1: retroactive jealousy has eaten
Speaker 1: so much of her.
Speaker 2: I think it echoes what we've been talking about that
Speaker 2: her sense of security, her sense of safety and self
Speaker 2: is dependent on what
Speaker 2: happens out there. So, in this case is dependent on
Speaker 2: whether that X gets married or not. Right to her.
Speaker 2: I think in this world where she believes in is
Speaker 2: like she gets married, then my security with my partner is, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's ok. It's cool. It's not
Speaker 1: if
Speaker 1: you had a client like that, right? What would your
Speaker 1: remedy like, what would you tell her to do to
Speaker 1: like bring that safety back to herself? She even still
Speaker 1: be in this relationship because I feel like it's
Speaker 1: somehow talks.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think that the only way for you
Speaker 2: to get clarity on whether to stay or to leave
Speaker 2: is to really work through what's going on. So one
Speaker 2: of the core things in terms of the things that
Speaker 2: I do with my clients is not just about rehashing,
Speaker 2: talking and revisiting what happened to you, right? Because I
Speaker 2: have a lot of clients coming in initially saying, you know,
Speaker 2: I know so much about retroactive jealousy. I know about
Speaker 2: attachment styles. I read about childhood trauma. But why is
Speaker 2: it that I can't stop this obsessive loop? Why is
Speaker 2: it that I cannot
Speaker 2: stop assessing about what's happening with my partner's exes? And
Speaker 2: the reason to that when I hear this, it is
Speaker 2: because of the mind, body disconnect your mind is telling you, ok,
Speaker 2: you need to move on, you need to be a
Speaker 2: better version of yourself. You need to stop this obsession. However,
Speaker 2: what we know about the body is that it remembers
Speaker 2: and it stores memories from the past painful emotions, sensation,
Speaker 2: stories from the past. If that part of the body, right?
Speaker 2: This part is not worked and looked into
Speaker 2: what you find is that there will be a greater
Speaker 2: disconnect between what the mind wants you to do and
Speaker 2: what the body remembers. So it's not just about talking
Speaker 2: about it. It's about asking yourself this very important question.
Speaker 2: So the clients that I work with would be very
Speaker 2: familiar with me asking this question. And it is this
Speaker 2: question of what are you feeling in your body right now?
Speaker 2: What is that felt in a sensation that you're feeling
Speaker 2: in your body right now? And what this question does
Speaker 2: it forces the client to pause and be like, oh,
Speaker 2: am I supposed to feel something in my body?
Speaker 2: And then they start noticing that, oh, I'm actually feeling
Speaker 2: something in my body, right? Maybe your chest tightens, right?
Speaker 2: You're feeling something here. Maybe you feel that not in
Speaker 2: your stomach, your palms get sweaty, your fingers, you know,
Speaker 2: you feel that tingling sensation and your arms
Speaker 2: feel very nump. So these are the things that you
Speaker 2: want to be able to take note of. What is
Speaker 2: your body trying to speak to you on noticing the sensation.
Speaker 2: And when you stay with that sensation, long enough, something
Speaker 2: will come to you. It will reveal to you the
Speaker 2: deeper layer of the emotion that you're still carrying.
Speaker 2: It will reveal to you the deeper layer of some
Speaker 2: memory that you're still holding on to. That is still
Speaker 2: very painful.
Speaker 1: It takes a
Speaker 1: lot of work on an individual's part to really confront yourself.
Speaker 1: And I think for people that have not having an
Speaker 1: understanding partner will definitely make it a lot easier for
Speaker 1: you to do that. But in this next story, this
Speaker 1: is tough. It's a female. My boyfriend and I have
Speaker 1: been dating for three months we met on Bumble. He
Speaker 1: was previously engaged to someone that he met online as
Speaker 1: well and they were doing long distance
Speaker 1: for two years, right? And they had plans to marry.
Speaker 1: She had plans to move and, you know, and all that,
Speaker 1: but they eventually called off the engagement because she had
Speaker 1: been holding on to a lot of relationship issues, but
Speaker 1: she didn't really share that with him. So he didn't
Speaker 1: have closure, right? And he kept trying to like win
Speaker 1: her back, kept trying to, you know, try to make
Speaker 1: the relationship work. He really loved her after they broke up.
Speaker 1: He dated like four different girls before finally dating the
Speaker 1: poster who posted this. Now she has a bit of
Speaker 1: retroactive jealousy and she thinks, well, see,
Speaker 1: like that girl was his one true love. Who am
Speaker 1: I in his life? And he had to date so
Speaker 1: many people to get over her. What do I have
Speaker 1: to fit into his life? She says that she knows
Speaker 1: she needs therapy but she can't really afford it right now.
Speaker 1: And he understands that this is retroactive jealousy but it
Speaker 1: does make them feel a little bit more distant. It's
Speaker 1: hard to deal with. Right. Even as a partner, it's
Speaker 1: hard to be supportive. Have you seen situations like that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that this deals with the
Speaker 2: wound of not being true,
Speaker 2: chosen and being prioritized in the past. And that's why
Speaker 2: it's coming up today as why can't I be his
Speaker 2: one and only, right? Why am I not the chosen one?
Speaker 2: Am I not good enough for him?
Speaker 1: And that's not
Speaker 1: true. Yeah. So what would you tell the
Speaker 1: clients?
Speaker 2: I would love to be able to tell them in
Speaker 2: a sentence. But I think it's so hard because there
Speaker 2: are many layers to it. But what I would say
Speaker 2: to this person is to get curious about where this
Speaker 2: voice is coming from, this narrative that's coming to you
Speaker 2: of like, why can't I be his one and only
Speaker 2: allow yourself to look deeper and to see whether other
Speaker 2: past experiences that you've been through in your life, maybe
Speaker 2: in your childhood experiences that made you feel that way
Speaker 2: where you felt as though you weren't chosen. You felt
Speaker 2: as though you weren't made priority number one. And I
Speaker 2: think the more you get curious about past stories that
Speaker 2: your body is still holding on to, it gets you
Speaker 2: to get a bit closer to what it is that
Speaker 2: you need to have that closure with.
Speaker 1: So once you
Speaker 1: identify, right? OK. This is coming from this in the past.
Speaker 1: Yeah. What's the next step? Like what, how do you
Speaker 1: get to closure?
Speaker 2: You work with your body? For example, when you understand
Speaker 2: the patterns that's coming up the question to ask yourself
Speaker 2: where when this trigger comes up, where am I feeling
Speaker 2: in my body? Let's say it's coming through your chest, right?
Speaker 2: When you stay with it long enough, sometimes what comes
Speaker 2: up is I'm feeling sadness that's coming up when you
Speaker 2: stay with it long enough. Sometimes a memory comes to
Speaker 2: you and maybe you see a younger version of yourself,
Speaker 2: maybe 56 year old, you that's curled up in one
Speaker 2: corner of the room.
Speaker 2: And then what you're also seeing is that you're hearing noises,
Speaker 2: your parents fighting outside the room, and you're also connecting
Speaker 2: to this experience of this younger version of you who
Speaker 2: feels really sad, very torn that your parents are constantly fighting,
Speaker 2: feeling very lonely that you know, you don't have anybody
Speaker 2: to talk to, to turn to in those times, right?
Speaker 2: So these are the parts of ourselves that we want
Speaker 2: to get curious on because these are important data and
Speaker 2: insights that we want to collect about ourselves. So that
Speaker 2: the more we understand
Speaker 2: and parts of ourselves that are still frozen in the past,
Speaker 2: the more we are able to come in to help
Speaker 2: these younger wooden parts on the inside. So
Speaker 1: after understanding all of those, is it possible for retroactive
Speaker 1: jealousy to
Speaker 1: completely go away?
Speaker 2: I would say it is possible to
Speaker 1: heal
Speaker 2: from retroactive jealousy. And what I mean by healing is
Speaker 2: number one, you have a more transformed relationship with your
Speaker 2: triggers and your emotions, right? So instead of seeing those
Speaker 2: as like, oh my God, I need to fear my
Speaker 2: triggers and my emotions, you come from a place of
Speaker 2: oh there
Speaker 2: coming up right now. So what is the message you're
Speaker 2: trying to speak to me on? So you come in
Speaker 2: from the lens of curiosity and compassion to learn more.
Speaker 2: Number two, what you'll notice is that there will be
Speaker 2: a reduced dependency and reliance on external factors and validation
Speaker 2: in order for you to feel secure and safe in
Speaker 2: your own body, in order for you to feel secure
Speaker 2: and safe in your relationship. And number three, you realize
Speaker 2: that there will be a greater degree of acceptance when
Speaker 2: it comes to the concept of healing, right? You no
Speaker 2: longer
Speaker 2: see it as you know, healing is something that is
Speaker 2: like an end destination, an end goal which I have
Speaker 2: to rush to, to complete and that's it. It's not
Speaker 2: like a one off thing but healing. It is this
Speaker 2: continuous ongoing journey that you have to move through till
Speaker 2: your very last breath. And I feel like when we
Speaker 2: reframe and have a healthier relationship on how we view
Speaker 2: doing the work, seeing the different emotional parts, it helps
Speaker 2: to create an inner world that feels actually ok
Speaker 2: to be in, you know, not a scary place that
Speaker 2: we have to constantly run away from or run to
Speaker 2: people in order to feel ok within our own selves.
Speaker 1: Interesting. So last question, what if today I'm not the
Speaker 1: one experiencing retroactive jealousy, but my partner is, how can
Speaker 1: I better support
Speaker 1: my partner?
Speaker 2: I would say one of the things it is being
Speaker 2: able to listen without judgment because for someone who is
Speaker 2: struggling with retroactive jealousy, there's already so much shame that
Speaker 2: they're dealing with on the inside, right?
Speaker 2: If a partner were to come in and try to
Speaker 2: shame the person label them, you know, you're like, you know,
Speaker 2: dramatic diva, you know, crazy. It makes that part of
Speaker 2: them that's holding on to that pain of being abandoned, rejected,
Speaker 2: want to close off even more and that part wouldn't
Speaker 2: want to come out and share the story of what
Speaker 2: is really causing him or her to be in pain.
Speaker 2: Number two, I would say it is important for the
Speaker 2: person who is supporting someone with retroactive jealousy to also
Speaker 2: be
Speaker 2: aware of boundaries because it can get exhausting to be
Speaker 2: able to navigate through the conversations, the discussions with someone
Speaker 2: who's struggling with that. So be aware of your internal capacity,
Speaker 2: have self care practices for yourself to make sure that
Speaker 2: you yourself, I think you care of yourself, you're filling
Speaker 2: up your own cup so that you can be in
Speaker 2: a space to help your partner as well. And I
Speaker 2: think number three is to be able to encourage healthier
Speaker 2: coping mechanisms. So if you're noticing that the person is
Speaker 2: indulging in a lot of obsessive sort of tools and
Speaker 2: coping
Speaker 2: mechanisms to be able to gently let them know that
Speaker 2: this is happening and to encourage them to also seek
Speaker 2: professional support because, you know, on your own, it can
Speaker 2: be really, really hard to navigate all the deep dark
Speaker 2: parts inside of yourself on your own. But having that
Speaker 2: someone that is neutral who is able to come in
Speaker 2: to compassionately listen to your story, hold space for your
Speaker 2: emotions and walk with you in that journey. My gosh,
Speaker 2: it will feel like a huge load of whatever it
Speaker 2: is
Speaker 2: that you're holding on the inside.
Speaker 1: But it's not
Speaker 1: easy for a partner to be doing all that. You know,
Speaker 1: because I think when it's in regards to you, your
Speaker 1: partner is being jealous about your past, right? I think
Speaker 1: it's very easy for someone to feel attacked for something
Speaker 1: that they had no control over because it was just
Speaker 1: part of life and you're coming at me with something
Speaker 1: that I can't do anything about. I can't undo I
Speaker 1: can't change. So I think that's how things
Speaker 1: escalate. Right. I would presume because, you know, it's very
Speaker 1: easy for the other person to feel affected by your
Speaker 1: emotions and they can't do anything about it.
Speaker 2: I guess
Speaker 1: this
Speaker 1: is what like no said, it's a constant work in
Speaker 1: progress up to your very last breath. Wow, this, this
Speaker 1: is an insane episode. We unpack so much trauma but
Speaker 1: before we go, no, any final pearls of wisdom for
Speaker 1: our audience.
Speaker 2: Um I would say if this flavor of jealousy is
Speaker 2: something that speaks to you, I want you to know that,
Speaker 2: you know, you're not alone. You know, there's so many
Speaker 2: individuals who also struggling with this, both men and women
Speaker 2: just because we don't talk about it a lot and
Speaker 2: often does not mean that it does not exist, does
Speaker 2: not mean that it's not common, right? So that's one.
Speaker 2: And I want you to know that, you know, whatever
Speaker 2: you're feeling right now, this sense of jealousy has nothing
Speaker 2: to be ashamed of because jealousy, it is a universal
Speaker 2: human experience. It is a natural emotional response
Speaker 2: to something inside of you that feels threatened outside. So
Speaker 2: our role is not to add more shame and judgment
Speaker 2: to it, but it is to be able to come
Speaker 2: in from that lens of understanding OK. Right now something
Speaker 2: feels off. I feel threatened by something. How can I
Speaker 2: go in to understand a bit more on what is
Speaker 2: below the water line and to see it for what
Speaker 2: it is, which is a signal, a message, right? That's
Speaker 2: trying to speak to us on something and not to
Speaker 2: take it
Speaker 2: as a life sentence. And I think the more we're
Speaker 2: able to do this work, to form this relationship with ourselves,
Speaker 2: to get curious about our triggers our emotions, the more
Speaker 2: our inner world will feel like a safe place to
Speaker 2: be in. And this can help to create a conducive
Speaker 2: environment to deepen our healing and to make sure that,
Speaker 2: you know, we are, are living life to the fullest.
Speaker 1: I love that. Thank you so much. No. Thank you
Speaker 1: for sharing your wisdom with us today
Speaker 1: and yeah, take some time to reflect as always with
Speaker 1: any episode after Nora, we all have to sit and
Speaker 1: reflect on what she said. And I'm sure we can
Speaker 1: find more little tidbits on Nora's Instagram at the Good
Speaker 1: Life underscore therapy. Don't forget to follow them and also
Speaker 1: follow us as well at isla.co. That's right. You can
Speaker 1: listen to us and me listen, Spotify Apple podcast on
Speaker 1: your notification. We're on youtube as well and who knows
Speaker 1: Nora might come back for a third time.
Speaker 1: No, but thank you so much. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much.
Speaker 1: I'll see you next time. Bye.