S1: Hey, what's up? Welcome to another episode of Men Explain,
S1: Thank you so much for the love and support so far.
S1: Today we have Ben King.
S2: Hey, my name is Benjamin Kheng. I sing songs and
S2: I have never, ever photoshop my butt on social media.
S1: Yes, you have. And today's episode is about beauty standards
S1: now for for the longest time, I feel, you know,
S1: us women, we have a lot of insecurities. We talk
S1: about our looks, you know how it affects our confidence
S1: and all that. Do men also experience this? We're going
S1: to find out. And Ben is probably one of the
S1: best people to fill me in about this.
S3: That's right. I'm deeply insecure and I have a crippling depression.
S2: But since we're talking about beauty standards, I've been very
S2: happy that it's Corvette season or it was know heavy
S2: Corvette season, so I could have a beauty sleep, quote
S2: unquote let myself go a little bit. Yeah, I'm getting
S2: a lot of beauty sleep. Yeah, yeah.
S1: So what's your your your regime now?
S2: The regime is turning 30.
S1: I see. And what happens then?
S3: Quarter life crisis, depression and a lot more.
S2: And suddenly breakouts again, like you would think something
S3: could be done.
S1: I literally see nothing on your face. What do you mean, breakouts?
S3: Well, you use concealer. You go to the face. No, no, no, no, no.
S3: It's all good. It's all good. It's in the hoods.
S1: Speaking of which, I was married,
S3: you know, it's like a disease pimple
S1: now since you guys have been so far. I mean,
S1: we haven't exactly caught up on a public platform
S3: about that yet. Yeah, I know we should, because those
S3: are
S2: the legitimate catch ups.
S3: It's been.
S2: It's been good. I want to thank you for helping
S2: me with that proposal that one time.
S3: All right. Yes. Yes.
S2: She helped me set up a very nervous dinner date
S2: with the parents. Yes, I had to ask for. And
S2: that was the more nervous thing really asking for the
S2: hand in marriage.
S1: I was literally like asking my staff over there like, Hey,
S1: how's it going? What's going on? No tears. Yeah, nobody
S1: said anything to like, Oh, I didn't. I was. I
S1: didn't want to, you know, but Jell-O?
S3: Yeah, good.
S2: Yeah, that showed up. And he laughed at me. Yeah,
S2: it was like, You're very nervous.
S3: Yeah, you
S2: think top 10 most nerve wracking things. Top three, to
S2: be honest.
S1: And then you had a little intimate wedding as well
S1: quite recently. Yes.
S3: Was that?
S2: It was intimate and wedding. Yes, it was very COVID safe.
S2: In fact, we had to do the whole, yeah, safe
S2: distancing and all that. So that's good. And then we're like, OK,
S2: we're going to do a small one. And then when
S2: you know, things open up, we'll do a big one.
S2: And then as the months went by, were like,
S3: Let's
S1: just stick to that.
S3: Yeah, but we should. We should know what we see.
S1: OK, well, thank you so much for joining us here today,
S1: because when it comes to beauty standards is something that
S1: I feel maybe we will feel more of it in
S1: the media industry. I don't know if you agree with
S1: me on that when it comes to, oh yeah.
S2: You know, I think as much as you try to
S2: talk around it and try to talk about your worth
S2: and everything, I mean, the most identifiable metric for us
S2: is is how you look right, even if it's not
S2: something about how you look. That's what people talk about
S2: a lot. When they when they, you know, have the
S2: names of media personalities on the lips, it's it's unavoidable.
S2: It's kind of awful. And so even if you didn't
S2: start out prioritizing it, you you do think about it eventually.
S1: And obviously, when it comes to clients or agencies, they
S1: can't help but also scroll through your social media platforms.
S1: And it is a whole new conversation where like, oh,
S1: he or she looks like this, or maybe suitable for
S1: our brands? Yeah.
S3: You think?
S2: No, absolutely. I think it's it's obviously different in in
S2: the acting world as opposed to, let's say, the um,
S2: you know, social media world because acting, obviously, if you
S2: don't get the gig, sometimes you tell yourself, I'm just
S2: not right for the part, they were looking for someone
S2: a bit different and and then you can make a
S2: career out of looking a certain way. But I also
S2: do think the social media bubble has has changed dramatically. Like,
S2: maybe at the start you had to really adhere to
S2: like this vision of how you should look. Whereas now
S2: like I think as long as you develop a persona
S2: or not as a persona, but like a certain style
S2: of looking and you put serious effort and thought into it,
S2: I think you can be rewarded for that as well.
S2: So the beauty and for that are a little bit different.
S2: But in general, I would say social media does share too,
S2: you know, very, very common beauty standards. In fact, it
S2: enhances it, right?
S1: Yeah. So so do you do you ever at one
S1: point feel very conscious, like when it came to, you know,
S1: taking your photos and your videos, you're like, Oh, how
S1: do I look like, you know, especially, I guess, during
S1: the birth of, like Instagram, for example. Yeah, because I
S1: see your TikTok stuff and nonsense.
S3: I love it. I love it. I love all old
S3: enough to be
S2: around the
S3: birth of Instagram. So I could say, I mean, I
S1: have no idea I was already in existence when I
S1: enjoy it.
S2: Yeah, well, I was around for the birth of Facebook.
S3: That was a different time.
S1: I wasn't. I have no idea. I was.
S2: Yeah, it was quite a scary time.
S3: But yeah. I don't know, I think we were all
S3: just trying to figure it out. Yeah, yeah.
S2: I'm suddenly the currency of of who you are online
S2: changed dramatically over a year and suddenly or how I
S2: am perceived online is everything. In fact, it is a
S2: barometer that that gets you work if you are in
S2: this line of line of work, obviously. So you do
S2: end up paying a lot of attention to it. I
S2: definitely change a lot with all my peers and I
S2: recognize that change. Before, I would only smaller set than
S2: we would cover, and now I have to think of
S2: different ways to
S3: pose and I like. Oh yes, yeah, I see all
S3: that stuff for you.
S2: Yeah. Top and middle and
S1: yes, everything.
S3: Everything. Yeah. So definitely, I mean, did you do you
S3: feel the same way?
S1: Definitely became more conscious, I think. I can remember what
S1: my first ever post was on Israel did something terrible.
S2: You bring it
S3: up right now. Are you producers? Oh gosh. Scrolling. OK, wait,
S3: you're going to
S1: bring this up to you.
S3: Bring my play some hipster bullshit, maybe some clout. Picture
S3: with the caption
S1: with a with a quote or something.
S3: Yeah, I like like wanderlust. So love, love, love, love, love, hate.
S3: I was a Tumblr kid. OK, OK. On Tumblr, you
S3: could be accepted for whatever Pashman you were. Yes. Yes,
S3: I do understand the trees
S2: you had in the background as
S1: well. Speaking from experience. Yeah, sure. Yeah, for me, it
S1: definitely changed. I think there was a pressure to also
S1: get better pictures, you know, or do my makeup better or,
S1: you know, because last time I just wouldn't really care, right?
S1: I would just show up to the studio. And you know,
S1: there was this term in the past where they said,
S1: You look like you're suitable for video, you know, I mean,
S1: until Sonia.
S3: No, no, no, no. Meaningless. Confirmed it.
S1: Yes, 100 percent. Because obviously in the past there was
S1: no visual element to radio, right? So nobody really put
S1: a face to whoever's on Al whose voice you are
S1: listening to that suddenly things change. You're like, Oh, you
S1: got to look a certain way or let you got
S1: to make sure you're presentable, even when you go to
S1: the studio. Because we might be shooting this and that
S2: in your annual meetings now we must embrace social
S3: media, but that's for you. And then I'll give to YouTube.
S1: And now I have to be here with bands like No,
S1: which I
S3: just want to look into a mic. This loser?
S1: Yes. Yes, it has changed. But I guess what I
S1: enjoy about some of the jobs that we do like,
S1: for example, when we when we flew over to Indonesia
S1: to do travel, as is VIDEO Right now, we're just like,
S1: Let it go, be yourself. You know, you don't have
S1: to worry too much about how perfect you look.
S3: It's hard to to look good when you are climbing
S3: a mountain, climbing a mountain. Yeah, yeah. True. And this flashbacks? Yeah. Flashbacks, flashbacks.
S1: OK. So then I'm throwing it back to you. Do
S1: you think men or women get judged harsher when it
S1: comes to looks, especially online? Well, can be straight and honest.
S1: This is a no filter.
S3: I know.
S2: Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, there's judgment on both sides
S2: and it happens, I think, in different arenas. Yeah, but
S2: for sure, for sure. Women, women get it much worse.
S2: I think thanks to the crushing patriarchy and our very
S2: common misogyny language and the fact that for centuries men
S2: have been favourite and been been been seen as world leaders,
S2: you know, policymakers and they've been judged very differently. Rice Bowl,
S2: all that kind of stuff. So women obviously historically were
S2: put to the sideline, right? And a lot of a
S2: lot of arguments as well. That base case women are
S2: more aesthetically pleasing. And so there's a lot more focus
S2: on that. So for sure, you guys get judged way
S2: harsher even today. That's not to say that men who
S2: get judged, but you can definitely feel the difference.
S1: A hundred percent. I mean, it's just a confession. OK,
S1: let girls also are guilty of objectifying men. Sometimes I'm
S1: just going to put it out there, OK, since we're
S1: having honest conversation as much as obviously it is seen,
S1: I guess, from the men's side, a little bit more online.
S1: So these trolls, you know, these guys are like, Oh,
S1: she's so ugly, how is she actually as a model?
S1: You know, that kind of stuff that we see sometimes
S1: in our comments section. But the fact of the matter is,
S1: I think women, we we take a lot of time
S1: to get ready before we start the day before we
S1: like to look presentable and all that and more so
S1: for us, even because we have to shoot, I don't know,
S1: film and do other stuff. How long do you take
S1: to get ready the morning
S3: I woke up and minutes before, there's no way know
S3: I had an afternoon nap. OK. OK. Depends. Yeah. Generally
S3: I have
S2: very oily skin, as you can tell, in about 10 minutes.
S3: So.
S2: So the makeup artist always behind the camera
S3: to shoot somebody you idiot might affect me, would you?
S1: OK, so five minutes, 10 minutes, that's all I'm going to.
S3: Yeah, I was like, Yeah, that's
S1: enough, OK?
S3: So so what do you take?
S1: Well, I was hoping to skip that.
S3: Exactly.
S1: Sometimes I think an hour that's OK.
S3: Really is OK. I mean,
S1: yeah, but an hour includes a shower and then sitting
S1: down to put my makeup on while Grey's Anatomy is
S1: playing in the background. So, so then in that case,
S1: what is your definition of attractiveness? Oh my gosh, I
S1: know this is a broad question. You can. Just have
S1: fun with it. No, no, right or wrong answers, you know,
S1: right or wrong
S3: answers, is my wife? Yeah.
S1: Oh, that's the right.
S3: All right, posterity. Oh, OK.
S1: Case I'll make it easier for you.
S2: No, no, no. I have. I have a decent answer,
S2: but people are going to really shit on me for this.
S3: I don't have A..
S2: OK. No, it is better to say to OK.
S1: Do you want me to rephrase? Please. OK.
S3: Yeah. At this point, OK.
S1: What makes Neomi attractive to you?
S3: Oh. Personality. Mm hmm.
S1: He's really digging a hole and digging deeper and deeper.
S3: Yeah.
S1: OK. OK. Didn't even need to had.
S3: If I have to
S2: look at it from a from a very surface level. Yes.
S2: Lowest common denominator industry. Or who is good for the job? Yeah.
S2: Produce a custom director. Typekit I can do that. But
S2: what is attractive to me as a person, I don't
S2: think I have one single type or I value attractiveness
S2: over the other. But I will say, like, like, you know,
S2: willingness to try and experiment with what works for you
S2: is attractive to me. I think not being so serious
S2: with it and having fun because yeah, if you if
S2: you're not so caught up about how you look all
S2: the time or you want to try something different, I
S2: think I love to see that kind of creativity.
S1: Yeah, it's so basically not taking yourself too seriously. You
S1: more of a character, personality kind of person.
S2: Yeah, exactly. Like, I'm wearing a sports bra right now.
S3: He just goes, OK.
S1: And so I hadn't heard the shirt is holding up
S1: so well, that's right.
S3: But no, I was.
S2: Interestingly enough, I was reading this article before coming on today,
S2: and there's a new movie out called Space Jam.
S3: Yes.
S2: And and there was an old movie called Space Jam
S2: two in the 1990s and a very famous character from it.
S2: Lola Bunny. Yes, a fan favorite obviously has a very
S2: different iteration this time. So Lola
S3: Bunny starts. Yeah.
S2: Historically, Lola has been sexualized.
S3: Yes. You know, she's always very curvaceous. In fact, she
S2: was rocking the the crop top way before it became
S2: a thing, right in the 80s and 90s. She was
S2: the consummate like, I don't know, it was very male Gaisie.
S2: And and, you know, we just accepted it as a thing. Yeah.
S2: And this movie, the director made a very conscious choice
S2: to de sexualize her.
S3: OK, so she
S2: she she's never lauded for her sexuality or like, she's
S2: not romantic in any way. In fact, she's just wearing
S2: overalls and she's playing basketball and she's good at it.
S2: And there was a barrage of complaints
S3: Why yo, you did my girl dirty, you know? Yeah,
S3: she looks like a clown now and like, Oh yeah,
S3: and then the director is like, Y'all quit. Yeah, for
S3: like
S1: now she's like, This is exactly the reason why
S3: I did that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
S2: And if you want to, you want to trace trace
S2: that back a little bit more comic books. Men for
S2: centuries have have really destroyed what we think of as
S2: beauty standards because you just look at the way the
S2: milk cartons are crafted and that the female characters are
S2: just like. The the costumes are like your skin,
S1: like latex, you know, it's not possible to be protecting
S1: you from any sort of, you know, no weapon or battle,
S1: and obviously, you know, there will always be these stereotypes, right?
S1: Like all women have to be that curvaceous, beautiful hair,
S1: beautiful eyes and guys have to be muscular and tall.
S1: And I don't know whatever it is that they, you know,
S1: used to see in the past. So do you have
S1: a few present also, like, did you ever feel not
S1: tall enough, not muscular enough? Have you ever felt insecure?
S2: Oh, for sure. And the thing is, men don't have
S2: the kind of avenue to talk about it all. Like,
S2: you know, it's harder to press that button with other
S2: April as ugly
S3: backed up
S1: movies. I've been sort of toxic masculinity.
S3: Yeah, with that.
S1: Yeah, I do watch that too. After you watch this. Yes.
S2: And so it wasn't this wasn't a big deal for
S2: me until I think it was made a big deal
S2: for me. So my height has been a thing for me.
S2: I'm not like, I don't think I'm really short or tall.
S2: How about one, seven three, which is like
S3: I was below average? Thank you. I'm glad to be back. Yes.
S1: Hey, man, I'm one six. All on a good day.
S3: It's a good day.
S1: It might be because I'm also wearing very tall sneakers. Nice.
S2: And she just told me, crossing legs makes you look taller.
S2: So I guess I subconsciously cross, but I won't anymore
S2: because I'm
S3: insecure about my high rise.
S1: Got you.
S2: But also knowing that the healthy conversations like these and
S2: being in a very healthy social cultural space is really
S2: a bubble. Even in Singapore, because we we have a
S2: healthy conversation. You know, I think a lot of our
S2: peers also have healthy conversations. But outside this bubble, general
S2: conversations in this country or outside, oh, it's not the same.
S2: And I think, OK, so I grew up in a
S2: very spotty environment. Yeah, I was in the spot school
S2: when I was younger, and I remember I was one
S2: of the shadows and the fetus growing up. So it
S2: wasn't a big deal for me before that. And then
S2: when I got into the school, they became a very
S2: big deal because I was assured as kid on the
S2: team and I was made very aware of it and
S2: they were tease me incessantly and not creatively like the
S2: best since I was Shorty Ben and I was like,
S3: Guys, well, how do I get right? We're about to
S1: give me something more creative, you know? Yeah. Please don't
S1: fall short.
S3: That's right. Hey, man, I think again, I relate to you.
S1: I relate to you regarding height. OK? I love you.
S1: My stories, data about you.
S3: I do value my lived experiences as a short man.
S2: So that made me aware of how I felt about
S2: being sure, my shortcomings. And people always ask this question, Hey,
S2: would you ever do, of course, do all that? And
S2: you and I don't understand why guys are so obsessed
S2: over this. And I was like, Yeah, sure. And so
S2: I eventually did date a girl who was like taller
S2: than me. It wasn't a big deal until my friend
S2: started asking me about it.
S3: I was like a U.S. leg, but you invested in
S3: my height like, yeah,
S1: you don't have a problem with it. Why would they
S1: be so concerned about it?
S2: Because it kept coming up in in random conversations with relatives,
S2: because relatives ask all the best questions
S3: because of
S2: it slowly aided to me. I was like, Should this
S2: be a thing? You know? So I think in many circumstances,
S2: we're not. We're not born with these insecurities, you know,
S2: but it's really like laid upon us by by other
S2: people that it's on our is on our own us
S2: to learn how to reject things that that don't they
S2: should not have control in shackles of us, including things like,
S2: you know, insecurities about how you look.
S1: Yeah, yeah. I mean, height has also been a bit
S1: of a issue for me as well. I'm not the
S1: tallest go in the group, OK, obviously, especially when I
S1: came into the industry. You know, I have to admit, right,
S1: I felt the need to wear like heels all the time.
S1: When I went to like and
S2: when he was a whole day is a tall order.
S3: Yes, indeed. Yeah.
S1: So it was so sad because I would never feel
S1: comfortable just walking up to an event in sneakers. And
S1: when I did, the amount of comments that I got
S1: from people who were like, Yeah, do you realize it's
S1: all shot like it was just back to back? Yeah,
S1: like four wheels, because I think they were so used
S1: to me, like having some extra height or like, OK, OK,
S1: bring heels or whatever. So one day I was like,
S1: You know what? I'm just gonna wear sneakers because I'm
S1: just tired and you know, I'll just rock up. Yeah,
S1: and then I remember not going to name the celebrity,
S1: but this guy ended up not going
S3: to name Joakim Gomez.
S1: No, it's not OK. You know, when friends make fun
S1: of each other, you know, there's not from a bet
S1: that we can go, Yeah, no, it's not. No, it's
S1: literally none of them. OK? So, so then he rocks
S1: up to me and he goes, like this. Hey, Sonya,
S1: where are you? Oh, I see you today, but I
S1: kind of. And I was just like, Oh my God,
S1: I don't even know you that well. And you're the
S1: tenth person. Yeah, we can laugh about it now. But
S1: I think at the point I was like, I'm so tired.
S3: I it. So it's funny because I don't mean to laugh. Yeah,
S3: I know. I know. Yeah, but at that point I
S3: did that to. Yeah, that's a lot of news, obviously.
S1: Yes, we are and ourselves. Yeah, but yeah. So it
S1: was just like, I'm so sick of this.
S3: I'm so dumb.
S1: So you know how that feels, too?
S3: Yeah, especially when it's at least as a joke.
S2: You kind of like you brush it off, but also
S2: it's a little, you know, it's like I. My step
S2: as
S3: opposed to like a big.
S1: Exactly, exactly. So how did you then get over this whole,
S1: this whole feeling? Just go to L.A., Is it OK?
S3: No, no. Give me a secret. As Eli said, Hey,
S3: I did my I did my yeah, ironman is just
S3: two centimeters
S1: makes a huge difference.
S3: It makes a huge difference.
S2: Yeah.
S1: No, he did not. You know, he's like 16 touches anyway.
S3: Yeah.
S2: And I was going to
S3: write a piece. Yeah, I know
S2: a few months ago again, I was on shoot for
S2: this magazine shoot and like, and you know how it is.
S2: You know, on set, sometimes it's super pressurising. Yeah. And
S2: I was doing it for a magazine where I was, uh,
S2: one guy and a bunch of guys, right? OK, and
S2: all these guys were guys. They were like, you know,
S3: like super like supermodel
S2: fellows. And I was, you me. And I was like,
S2: Why am I in this? And I didn't think much
S2: about it until a I got a comment from the
S2: hairdresser that like your hair's thinning out and you're like,
S2: put on weight. So I was like. He said it
S2: was great. And then I go on set and then
S2: the director literally,
S3: like you said, Yeah, well, yeah. And he literally said
S3: that to my
S1: face like this. Did you look like this like right
S1: now because I don't remember you being even remotely chubby
S1: or anything?
S2: I had no idea. I mean, I think, yeah, again,
S2: I neither did I. I thought I was fine. I was,
S2: you know, running quite a bit. And like, maybe I
S2: had a bit of soy sauce last night.
S3: Sorry, a bit more prosperous.
S2: But I don't think in any means was I overweight
S2: or obese? So I had a good paradigm going into it.
S2: I was like, I'm fine.
S3: Yeah, yeah.
S2: But then I saw the spread and then everyone else
S2: looked like fricking great. Got chiseled jawline cut people kind.
S3: Yeah, I worked out for a whole week after that
S3: and just like going,
S1: Yeah, sometimes you go into a shoot and you're like,
S1: positive and you're like, I'm going to sleep this. And
S1: it's just these small little comments that like sort of
S1: chip away at you and you don't feel your best. Eventually,
S1: when you're in front of the camera and then you
S1: lose the moment right or you lose the juju or
S1: whatever it is or the vibe and that just really
S1: ease away at you.
S2: It does. And I think it's also I just caveat
S2: here because like I think it's easier said than done, obviously,
S2: to ignore these things. And we both are. I would say,
S2: privileged and we are in a position of ease and
S2: we have work that comes to us for how we look.
S2: And I understand it could be extremely difficult for people
S2: out there and at home who are facing insecurities that
S2: that you can't even begin to articulate because once you do,
S2: you are legitimizing that pain and that insecurity. So I
S2: totally understand. I do want to make it to assume like, Oh,
S2: it's that easy to get
S1: over, you know? No, no, no. I mean, I think
S1: it's a very different context because in an industry like
S1: this is saturated and you're being compared to a lot
S1: of others, right in a very small space. So I
S1: think it's while we are not trivializing other sorts of
S1: insecurities and other other elements under this topic, I think
S1: it's just heightened. It's super heightened, you know, like emphasized
S1: more in our industry, and that's why it possibly eats
S1: away at you faster. On that note, do do guys
S1: like you in the locker room or in your wherever
S1: you guys are like comparing like, Oh, like me, I'm macho. Like,
S1: they only do a bit more like walk, bro. You
S1: look very good to do because of course I know girls,
S1: we compete all the time. But yeah, it's kind of like, Oh, like,
S1: what a weight or like, whatever. You know, we see
S1: all these silly things sometimes that I feel we shouldn't.
S2: Yeah, I don't know. And like the kid, the whole
S2: locker room thing like with men and the sizes of
S2: different appendages.
S1: Yes, like we went there.
S3: OK, yeah, we don't have it kind of is in
S3: the one of the same. Yes. You know, I mean,
S3: but then again, like
S2: beauty centers always shift through the centuries, right? And if
S2: you can talk about those kind of beauties and it's
S2: then in medieval and in ancient Greece times, a small
S2: appendage was considered beautiful.
S3: Really? Yeah. I mean, you know this? Oh, well, let
S3: me educate you on the small appendages. Not from experience.
S3: I don't know. OK, yeah.
S2: OK, OK. I know this is a bit kind of
S2: like kind of gross, but it does a better ending
S2: to the story. Yes, OK, I'm reading.
S3: Yeah, is this a larger meaning to this waiting for
S1: the climax of the story?
S3: I'm sorry, it's so hard anyway.
S2: So OK. Back then, obviously in ancient Greece and medieval
S2: times and the Renaissance period, why you see statues, we
S2: have such small bodies. Yes, it's because that was lauded
S2: as as as
S1: the ideal, as the
S3: ideal aesthetic
S2: because it signified wealth signify restraint. While other male counterparts
S2: with long yeah saw that appendages Waseem as primal out
S2: of control of lower class. Right. And that's why you
S2: see a lot of small appendages on Michelangelo, is it? Yeah, Michelangelo. Yeah,
S2: I think so. Yeah. And other Grecian statues. And obviously
S2: this changed over time. Yeah. But you can definitely draw
S2: parallels to the female figure of the past as well
S2: when being the. Says was an attainable figure because it
S2: was a sign of health and prosperity,
S1: fertility as well and not
S3: fertility with the hips,
S2: right? Yeah, I think so. And obviously that that changed
S2: over time as well, because then they started to view
S2: obviously obesity as unhealthy. Yeah. But back then, that was
S2: the beauty standard. So like, the goalposts are always shifting.
S3: Yeah.
S1: And you know, along the way, it shifted to like
S1: all being skinny like and in the 60s or what
S1: like Twiggy and stuff like that, like those storm surges
S1: so insanely, you know, the figure became so different. And
S1: then you see all these like modelling shows, for example,
S1: they're all clustered a certain way until, I think, up
S1: until the recent few years. You know, obviously everyone's trying
S1: to be a bit more inclusive as well. And I
S1: think it's a great thing. It's so good. Yeah, you
S1: know who's to say this? This girl is a model
S1: to you and not to me or anything else when
S1: as opposed to its own right.
S3: It's hard for us to
S2: say whether or not each century had that tipping point,
S2: you know, tipping point or the jumping the shark moment
S2: where they went, OK, enough is enough. We not we
S2: need to start thinking that way. And then if the
S2: needle went the other way, you know what I'm saying? Because, yeah,
S2: it came to a point where we realized that actually
S2: looking healthy is, is the goal? And then to what
S2: point now we're looking healthy becomes the apex and then
S2: we all have to be super fit. Yes. If we
S2: all have a story to tell when it comes to
S2: that and then I feel like we're always trying to
S2: fit within that goalpost. It's always moving, whether or not
S2: we admit it or not.
S1: Yeah. And obviously, this ties into how confident you are
S1: about yourself as well, right? Oh, for sure. I mean,
S1: confidence is the thing that I think also people seem
S1: to think that everybody in front of the camera, we
S1: are confident people are that we're confident of how we look,
S1: how we speak, how we behave. But to be honest,
S1: I think some of us could be the least confident
S1: people and we second guess and think all the time
S1: about it. I don't know.
S2: How would you rate your confidence now as opposed to
S2: like five years ago
S3: on a
S1: test? You know, like when I started doing this, I
S1: had zero self-confidence. I was always like, Oh, I can't
S1: do this. I don't know, you know, like, everyone's like, Yeah,
S1: you can. You can go, do this, do that. But
S1: I would see my self-confidence was like at an all
S1: time low when I joined the
S3: industry because you came up through the competition. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
S3: This is super pressurising as well.
S1: I will never join a competition again. Just saying, OK,
S1: just seeing like it was really tough. And you know
S1: that the fact that also during that contest, you get eliminated,
S1: you get brought that you get, you know, there's a
S1: lot of ups and downs, right? So I did get
S1: eliminated and then I got brought back. So this really
S1: was like, Oh my god, I can't do this anymore.
S3: Yeah, where's my self-worth? Yeah, yeah, exactly.
S1: And your self-worth was based on votes, which is, Oh
S1: my God. Back then, they didn't have Instagram at a point.
S1: So it's not like, like sort of it's literal votes,
S1: I think, through a website. Yeah. So I'm like, Oh
S1: my gosh, I don't think I'm going to win this
S1: because I'm not the most popular person in terms of voting, right?
S1: So that's when it started. Like, you realize a price
S1: tag has been put on you or like your value
S1: is being tied to the amount of likes that you
S1: get now in this context on Instagram.
S3: Sure. Yeah.
S1: All right. So when we talk about confidence, how would
S1: you then rate your confidence level?
S2: Well, in 2015, I co-hosted a week of night seven
S2: of Sony, and I wore a tassel dress.
S1: I would say his confidence was 15 over 10, and
S3: then I went up to 15 that week. Thank you
S3: very much. That's out of the ball, Roy. Yeah, it's
S3: your fault, really. You are welcome. Yeah.
S1: I think Joakim attempted to also did it, but it
S1: didn't work out. He ended up borrowing my leggings instead.
S3: OK, that's pretty challenging. Yes. Yes, yes. He's got quite
S3: a figure himself. I do.
S1: Yeah, I do watch the episode too.
S3: OK, it's a bit. It's very it's very
S2: primal instinct, for example, with a puppy like it responds
S2: to two treats, right? Like a response to how much
S2: like it needs a stimulus. And for us, the stimulus
S2: has become likes. Right? Yeah. So when we get opposed
S2: it as a love, like if you start to analyze
S2: why that is post get more likes, it's because I
S2: looked at this in a way. I paid more attention
S2: to my pose or I sexualize myself. And then that
S2: becomes an easy bait, right? Yeah. And then everyone starts
S2: doing it. And then people who are uncomfortable at losing
S2: out start going like, OK, I have to do it
S2: as well. And then it's a vicious cycle. So I
S2: you can see the machine happening. And yet like, it's
S2: hard to to go against it and stop it. Yeah,
S2: I don't have a solution. I just wanted to
S1: to get it out there. Yeah, yeah. Well, that there
S1: was actually this quote from Yale, and I'm going to
S1: read it to you now and then you tell me
S1: what you think. Do men do it themselves? Sometimes, of course,
S1: but they don't let their doubts stop them as often
S1: as women do.
S2: Wow, that's that's pretty bold. Men are plenty stopped by
S2: their doubt, I think.
S1: Yeah, I don't. I don't agree with that, actually.
S2: I think maybe it's just not a parent because they
S2: don't know how to talk about it as much. So
S2: you can really it's not really televised or documented. But
S2: we have crumbling, crippling self-doubt and yeah, and society.
S3: Yeah, heaps of it.
S1: But has self-doubt and insecurity ever made you think maybe
S1: I want to change my appearance a little like do
S1: some fillers or do, I don't know, do something? I mean,
S1: this is a question that sometimes, you know, we're being
S1: fed so much at all. So this actually this. She
S1: losing or this thick skin thing that you do like,
S1: don't you want to do it too, so you can
S1: get a sharper nose? Have you ever thought of this?
S2: When I was in secondary school, I actually did Google
S2: about knee surgery
S3: because I was so traumatized at school.
S2: So yeah, I actually did Google it and I was
S2: seriously considering
S3: it because it's
S1: stupid. I didn't even realize this, but about 99 percent.
S1: There's a 99 percent increase in men wanting to get
S1: things like injectables and knees and stuff like that was
S1: this is become so common in some countries overseas and
S1: is more or less acceptable as well. Yeah. Not just women,
S1: but men do it too. Yeah, yeah. I want to
S1: look better.
S2: I guess the jury's still out on that for a
S2: lot of people, right? Some people are uncomfortable with that.
S2: I think obviously, because like I have a few friends
S2: who've gone under the knife and they seem a lot
S2: happier and healthier.
S3: OK. Go for it. I mean, if it
S1: if it makes you happy
S3: or yeah, or if you
S2: had affected your mental psyche a lot before that, I
S2: had a friend in school, so he had a terrible underbite. OK.
S2: And just the trauma he got from school, you know, like,
S2: it is awful again. I mean, it was enough to
S2: see that the teeth didn't align. You know, but it was.
S2: It was also enough to become his identity. And when
S2: you're in secondary
S1: school,
S3: yeah, that becomes your identity. You are the draw guy,
S3: you know, Oh,
S2: you're that fella. And people will always make fun of it.
S2: And then.
S3: And then I was a girl in school. Yeah. Who
S3: had an overbite?
S1: Wow, OK.
S3: And then people tried to match them. No, because I'd
S3: be perfect for, you know, which just a bit funny,
S3: but incredibly mean. Yeah, OK. Yeah, it was. It could
S3: have been the girl the girl was. She was fine
S3: with it. She should.
S1: I'm laughing at the ridiculousness
S3: and the creativity of guys. And so when someone drew
S3: a photo? No.
S2: Then it was off. We drew a photo instead of
S2: printing it out.
S3: Oh God, that's. And at that point, you
S2: said that point, like obviously stricter measures were in place
S2: and I was punished. But this friend of mine went
S2: on and he got surgery.
S3: And that's completely I mean, like, I'm fine. Yeah, yeah,
S2: this should be fine because I think it has been
S2: plaguing you that long. Like, you know, you need to
S2: feel OK with yourself. But it's not easy, man. It
S2: just it was. So it's tough to even think about
S2: being that person, you know? And it's hard to say, yeah,
S2: just be self-assured. Like, you know,
S3: it's it's
S1: hard. It's hard. It's easier said than done. You know,
S1: I also had a friend from from poly. He was
S1: very self-conscious about his ears, so his ears were like,
S1: kind of I honestly didn't see anything. But you know,
S1: you are you and you feel insecure about something he's
S1: usually like kind of sticking out a little bit more
S1: prominent than than the usual, the regular type of person.
S1: And he would always cover it with his hair like,
S1: you know, Justin Bieber style last time. All that your
S1: hair's just like, yeah, you're intimate with your helmet, right?
S1: So the time came when he had to go to
S1: nice and you have to shave your hair off. So
S1: he was sorry. I can't do it. And he disappeared
S1: from he took an M.S. from school. Or was it
S1: doing school break or something for like a couple of weeks?
S1: And he did a tuck on his ears to tuck
S1: his ears back so that he could shave his head,
S1: go to Ennis and feel normal. And this is when
S1: I realized like, Wow, you know, these physical appearances duplicate
S1: men just as much as women, and an end is
S1: you're stripped of everything, right? You're just you. Sure, you go.
S1: There is, I don't know, like teenage acne. Still, you know,
S1: I went through, I need to like back in school and,
S1: you know, he had to shave was have obviously he
S1: wanted to do something that made him feel a little
S1: bit more comfortable and self-assured.
S3: I think it's also
S2: I wouldn't screw it straight up. Point that out. I mean,
S2: I think it's also like a sensitive topic, but I'm
S2: glad he did it. I guess it made him feel better. Yeah.
S2: And then the argument is also like, if you are
S2: that person and the situation people tell you just own it.
S2: Like just be funny or like, you know, make light
S2: of it,
S3: even though it's kind of hot. So to say it
S3: is
S1: because you don't want to always have that at the
S1: top of your
S3: head as well. And yeah, you
S2: do want to make a joke and then make it
S2: fall short.
S3: Yeah. Yeah.
S1: Yes. On that note, I'm very glad you didn't do
S1: knee surgery. And you know, from experience watching Grey's, that
S1: would have gone very bad. Yeah.
S3: So, yes, thank you.
S1: Yeah, I'm glad that you didn't do it. OK. On
S1: that note, anything else that you want to leave your
S1: brothers here to do? Because obviously it has been a
S1: really insightful chat, and thanks for joining me on this.
S1: Anything words of advice or last words you want to
S1: leave for your bros.
S3: Just just just do you, man?
S1: And that shall be printed on a T-shirt?
S3: Yeah, it's just do you?
S2: Yeah, I think I think it's it's hot for everybody,
S2: but I think there's immense power in articulating it with
S2: your friends. I'd probably just reiterate what Aaron said as well.
S2: There's a lot of power in sharing your heart, and
S2: I think you'd be surprised, even like guy to guy.
S2: How receptive like we can be. My, my, my guy,
S2: friends and I have these conversations over the PlayStation Network
S2: like we literally have our headsets on. We're playing a
S2: game each segment, a few factory rules.
S3: Really? Yeah. So I mean, it's fine. I think I
S3: think
S2: you'd be surprised. I think that just that first step
S2: is really hard to open that line of communication. But
S2: once you do, it's
S1: you build a support system. And I think it's. Great.
S2: That's right, Poppy, stand tall one.
S1: I think I lost on this one. I'll give it
S1: to Ben. Thanks for joining us today. Now, if you
S1: liked this episode, please hit the follow button. We are
S1: on Spotify and Apple Podcasts also follow its Clarity Echo
S1: and Instagram and Facebook for more content like this, and
S1: we'll see you next time.