S1: The following is a C and a podcast. We've had
S1: a little break, but welcome back to the climate conversations.
S1: I'm Jamie Hope. Natural gas prices have tripled since the
S1: start of this year, in large part fueled by demand
S1: from Asian economies emerging from lockdown. And here in Singapore,
S1: given our dependence on natural gas imports for electricity generation,
S1: the consequence is that electricity costs will surge. Already, the
S1: government has warned and advised households to conserve electricity. But
S1: as our society shifts towards greater electrification, think cars, 5G devices, datacentres,
S1: energy demand and costs will only rise. How can we
S1: balance needs with our commitments to reduce carbon emissions? How
S1: long do we wait before alternative energy sources are reliable?
S1: And what does this all mean for the man on
S1: the street who may find his electricity bills going up?
S1: With me to discuss this is Lim Han Kwang, CEO
S1: of General and group head for Retail Regulation and renewables
S1: at Whitesell Power Soraya Denticles parent company. He's an 18
S1: year veteran in the local energy industry. Welcome Hong Kong.
S2: Hey, hi. Thanks, Jimmy.
S1: I'm going to jump straight into the first question and,
S1: you know, talk about the industry. Given your experience, you've
S1: been doing it nearly 20 years now. Start by giving
S1: us a broad sort of overview of what our overall
S1: national energy and electricity ecosystem looks like now in terms
S1: of infrastructure, in terms of players that talk about sustainability
S1: compared to, say, 10 years ago. Right. And what has
S1: changed in the last two years since the pandemic? And
S1: what trends are you seeing in terms of consumption price,
S1: things like that?
S2: The Singapore energy sector has come a long way in.
S2: He has actually moved from Orbis to achieve natural gas
S2: over the last few years. Actually, from 2.0 to to
S2: now in India evolve significantly, and now majority of the
S2: power is actually generated by a very efficient gas cycle.
S2: 90 percent of the coal is actually generated by these
S2: inefficient machine. You look at the mix that we have
S2: seen in Singapore over the last few years, I think
S2: that's largely due to climate change. The government has no
S2: one to actually bring in more green power into the space.
S2: So in the last few years, actually, we are seeing
S2: more and more solar installations putting into the system as
S2: we are speaking now, about 4500 reconnect that solar PV
S2: in the system that accounts for about 240 megawatts. If
S2: you while you look at just the installed capacity, it's
S2: about five percent of our peak demand of 7000. But
S2: the more actual electronic that's being generated after netting off
S2: as the internal consumption and due to the intermittency of
S2: the solar panel, you do a contribution to the generation
S2: in total is actually less than one percent. To achieve this,
S2: a of wind power that's available in the market. The
S2: government is quite clear that you want to continue to
S2: lower the carbon emission, and we have actually set ourselves
S2: some targets that hopefully by zero trees, you will want
S2: to make sure that solar installation actually heat 2000 megawatt
S2: bill recently. We are also looking at importing power from
S2: the neighboring country. We have seen countries that allow even
S2: for militia by trying to import power from them to
S2: actually increase more renewable power injecting into our group.
S1: Now you know that the interesting about about you and
S1: you have two hats, so to speak, your generator as
S1: well as a retailer, right? How does this model affect
S1: the way that you work? Does it make it more
S1: efficient in bringing such new alternative options for all customers
S1: onto the table? What kind of efficiencies are you seeing?
S2: She calls Jen Taylor. I believe we are all retailers
S2: that's backed by power generation company. She brings about a
S2: lot efficiency because we are able to control the amount
S2: of electricity that we generate, able to control the cause,
S2: and therefore, with all the efficiency throughout the company to
S2: the end to end process, actually, we are able to
S2: provide very affordable as well as competitive price for our consumer.
S1: Going back to April 2018, that's when EMC, our Energy
S1: Market Authority, began moves to launch this new open electricity market.
S1: And by 2019, the year after, all of us can
S1: now choose from different retailers looking at it from the
S1: consumer perspective, aside from choosing a plan that fits our
S1: budget and needs of households. I learned that companies like
S1: yours now offers carbon offsets. This thing called the power
S1: eco add on. Explain how this contributes to your overall
S1: strategy and how to it take a bean has. Do
S1: customers really know about this or are they really attracted
S1: to it?
S2: Jimmy, it's good that you're aware of what you see
S2: in Singapore lately. You're in the market was open one
S2: eight and are actually about 12 or year because we
S2: can be told it could be. So being divestiture? So
S2: it's very important for us to stay ahead of the
S2: curve by understanding what our customers actually require and keep
S2: it up. And we look at the trend and we
S2: know that consumers are getting more and more conscious about
S2: how they can actually help the environment. And that's why
S2: we came out with the power eco only product. While
S2: customer we understand or not every customer may be prepared
S2: to buy a 100 percent green. We may want to
S2: choose the green contribution level that suits the affordability before
S2: the choose the plan. So we then we came out
S2: with these how we go on with the customers, any
S2: power plan before we get to choose whether they would
S2: like to have 25 percent, 50 percent, 75 percent, 100
S2: percent of green contribution in the electricity plan. So it
S2: sounds like a public key concept to you. So that's
S2: exactly how we came up with the ideas.
S1: OK, explain to me how it works. If I choose
S1: 100 percent, what does it mean?
S2: Should the honor actually force on? What we call a
S2: carbon neutral electricity plan, meaning that while the electricity that's
S2: being supplied to you continues to be drawn from the
S2: grid and the generator from the gas fired machine in
S2: the system, what we do is that we will actually,
S2: which is either carbon credit or renewable energy. So from
S2: green projects not using a full offset or Singapore to
S2: actually help to offset your carbon emission for the electricity
S2: that you are using.
S1: What's the incentive for me? I mean, obviously, let's say
S1: I'm entirely green conscious and I want to do as
S1: much as I can, and I have the financial capacity
S1: to do it right. What's going to sort of make
S1: me go for 100 percent versus, let's say, the 50 percent?
S1: What's your value proposition to me?
S2: That's what I a single. If you really want to
S2: have green electricity, what can you really do, right? So
S2: I think one of them, of course, if you have
S2: a rooftop house because you just like our own solar installation,
S2: I think that's actually one very quickly when you install
S2: your own solar panel and then you get supplied with
S2: green power. Alternatively, if you don't have a pot of
S2: your own light, you can actually try to see whether
S2: anybody has a rooftop solar into a green energy by daylight.
S2: You see that. But then if all these options are
S2: not available, the best we know in the market for
S2: you to do your part for the environment, actually to
S2: choose the carbon neutral electricity where you actually make payment
S2: for the carbon credits or renewable energy source to support
S2: green projects to offset the emission of electricity consumption that
S2: you're using. So if you asked me whether you would
S2: like to do 100 percent or to, you do 50
S2: percent honesty, I think that's why we launched the eco option.
S2: You actually get to choose what you want. For example,
S2: I just give you some numbers that you decided to
S2: go for carbon credits and you got 50 percent. That
S2: will cost you about comedy based on a carbon price
S2: about 80 cents per month, 80 cents.
S1: In addition to, let's say, does it depend on how
S1: much electricity you use?
S2: Yes, I think these could be phased out based on
S2: the Singapore average consumption of 100 kilowatt hour till you
S2: think about it is that it is a more for
S2: a month or 50 percent while using carbon credit to
S2: be something that suits your budget. Why not write? The
S2: math is quite simple, but you just so you be sleepy.
S2: A typical household. Maybe you just pay another one dollar
S2: 60 cents. So depending on your budget, I would say
S2: that it's really free for you to decide.
S1: Yes, interesting. How do I get reassured that if I
S1: pay the $1 60 cents, it goes to the right places?
S1: And do I have a choice in where it goes
S1: to where the credits are paid into?
S2: At this point, you don't get to choose where you get.
S2: I should give you a choice whether you want to
S2: buy carbon credits or you going to buy the new
S2: energy system and could actually make sure that we produce
S2: all our carbon credits or the renewable energy source. So
S2: it is a big fight, but internationally recognized standards. For example,
S2: for our carbon credits, we actually purchase carbon credits only
S2: from jet that has met the standard called the very fight.
S2: This administered by a company called Beaver Independent Party that
S2: explain these ideas and all project that has passed the
S2: verified carbon standard will go through a robust independent verification process,
S2: and any carbon credits issued by them is being tracked
S2: on the registry to ensure that emission reductions are not copied,
S2: and similarly, that we procure renewable energy. So we are
S2: buying them from projects that fulfill the extended. So I
S2: will say that by us buying from a reputable or
S2: credible source, I think that should give you the assurance
S2: that your money has actually gone to support the green projects.
S1: It's good to hear so that the key thing for
S1: me now. How has the take up in the U.S.,
S1: Singaporeans being vaguely interested in paying a little bit more? Well,
S1: it's being a little bit more green.
S2: We launch it around August, doing the National Day period.
S2: I would say the initial response. I would say I'm
S2: quite satisfied. We actually see about 10 times more new
S2: customers signing up for this compared to a period where
S2: I just offer no option but just 100 percent green
S2: or do people. What is even more encouraging that I
S2: also see some of my existing renewable customer who are
S2: not green actually choosing be political on when they renewed
S2: my stimulus. I will say that is encouraging. View that
S2: it takes time as consumers become more aware of the
S2: climate change and what to do with the pot. I
S2: believe this on. We'll continue to gain traction.
S1: Do you think in the longer term, the action where
S1: the real influence is going to be may not be
S1: in households then, but the bigger electricity's are consumers. It
S1: could be corporate, it could be industry. Are you guys
S1: looking in that direction or you sort of balancing your
S1: approaches between households and larger consumers?
S2: This carbon neutral electricity can actually be offered to both
S2: residential S.O.S. the commercial. So we have started by introducing
S2: it to the residential customer and definitely offering such so-called
S2: carbon neutral electricity is something that we are also in
S2: the works to provide to our commercial industrial customer base bill.
S1: I'm going to take this sort of another little bit
S1: of a bigger picture and talk about something that's really
S1: happening now. We see what's happening in Europe, for example,
S1: right where natural gas prices have been going up. Minister
S1: Gan Kim Yong now has said that electricity prices here
S1: are bound to rise as well, telling people to be
S1: careful about how they use electricity. As you see all
S1: these sort of developments happening, do you think these sort
S1: of external events, these price shocks give us more impetus
S1: to look at even more alternatives beyond energy imports. And
S1: what do you do? Does this have any impact on
S1: your efforts both rolling out on this, as well as
S1: things like this power eco add on and try to
S1: push people to create a little bit more for the
S1: green option.
S2: We all recognize that Singapore, a country where we do
S2: not have a lot of natural resources, so even for
S2: a power plant is generated by natural gas and electric,
S2: it's important the price of all these to all with
S2: you are definitely affected by the global price movement or
S2: demand supply. So I think we still fight that increase
S2: in price is unavoidable if the global price of the
S2: materials are increasing as well. This is not actually the
S2: real US from the direction that we should continue to
S2: try to achieve and or what that net zero by
S2: two zero five zero should that the temperature do not
S2: increase by one point by adding We need to stay
S2: on course. You look at what you go on, actually,
S2: does it fluctuate with the so-called fuel cost switching, even
S2: though the underlying electricity could be higher? But actually the
S2: cost to produce the carbon credits also is not changing
S2: yet because these are not theoretical. So I would think
S2: that the incremental cost to you to be increased to
S2: remain the same. If I look at the current price
S2: the retailers is offering to the residential, even after you
S2: on the pelikula, I think it's still cheaper than directly to,
S2: but interest to go green should continue to in a
S2: lot traction moving forward.
S1: Yeah, I'm therefore going to ask you the next question
S1: that you put on your wiki also right ahead. And
S1: talk a little bit more about the alternatives there for
S1: in renewables. You know, our government has announced the nice
S1: part of the Singapore Green Plan, working on four switches
S1: of supply natural gas as we've been talking about solar
S1: regional power grids and emerging low carbon alternatives as part
S1: of the overall national transition. Obviously, it's not going to
S1: be easy. A huge part of it is going to
S1: be infrastructural, sitting from where you are, what are the
S1: biggest sort of obstacles or challenges for a country like
S1: Singapore in terms of infrastructure going ahead and being able
S1: to tap on all these four in parallel and sort
S1: of being able to switch from one priority to the other?
S1: Because as we have seen, yes, natural gas is perhaps
S1: one of the cleanest and most efficient energies. But if
S1: you're going to move away from that as well to
S1: other things, a solar regional power grid, what are the
S1: challenges that we need to look at as we head
S1: towards 2030 and beyond? You think
S2: so? You're right. The way we look at it, we've
S2: got a big decision on how we want the energy
S2: story or Singapore to be like, we actually need to
S2: look at tree. I spoke the environmental sustainability, affordability and
S2: reliability component. I think these are what we typically call
S2: the Trailhead model that any policymaker will have to actually
S2: consider when they want to look into how to get
S2: the right mix of public to Singapore for the fall.
S2: Suggest if you look at the right. I think solar
S2: energy definitely will continue to be the most promising renewable
S2: energy source in Singapore, and we've all targeted weeks to
S2: gigawatt peak. I think to go up it will be
S2: the maximum, hopefully, that we could actually get from the
S2: so-called land and the buildable space in Singapore so that
S2: you sell would not be able to do all the
S2: requirements and more. You know, solar power fluctuate depending on
S2: whether it's not just about sunlight. And so you can
S2: actually meet the sustainability by introducing solar energy. But the
S2: intermittency created by the solar is something that we also
S2: need to look out for. So next, stepping in the
S2: regional policy today, I think it's only one connection we
S2: might share. But actually, that connection was never meant for
S2: commercial purposes to get access to more sustainable energy sources
S2: that otherwise would not be available in Singapore. And we
S2: definitely need to wait and see how we get renewable
S2: power to single. And of course, the biggest challenge is
S2: how do we bring it in? So I think that
S2: is where in terms of course, who will want to
S2: invest in submarine cables to bring power into Singapore would
S2: definitely be a key consideration if we want to make
S2: that happen. Similarly, importing coal has its own drawbacks. Well, yeah,
S2: of course. For example, if a submarine cable is dull
S2: due to outage, it could take many months to repair
S2: and do in dispute. So what happened to support as
S2: part of false pictures? I can't see that natural gas
S2: this one of the street, because I think the natural
S2: gas will continue to play a very important role in
S2: Singapore market. Why do I even leave all that? You
S2: pull aside just solar? I don't think we would be
S2: able to get enough to supply 100 percent single fossil
S2: gas fired that she will continue to provide what I
S2: call the beast. All these gas fired, which she can
S2: also be converted to what we call fast, that we
S2: should help to address that intermittency issue caused by the
S2: solar installations in Singapore, some of the older coal mines.
S2: They could also be repurposed to provide backup facility for
S2: the public so that this machine to actually be run
S2: when there is a major outage of that. So the
S2: pollution is actually emerging technology things that the government is
S2: exploring the use of hydrogen to pull up the generator
S2: and carbon capture. But based on what we see, all
S2: these new technologies do have a long way to go.
S2: Maybe after two zero three five would be something where
S2: all this technology will be able to explore. So for now,
S2: the deployment of solar power import and continued usage of
S2: the gas emission would be the right strategy for quite.
S1: You mentioned Laos early on in the conversation, and obviously
S1: the potential that people see in I draw from places
S1: like Louth explained the complications and the sort of infrastructural
S1: challenges as well. If we are going to look into
S1: options such as that, obviously when you talk about underground
S1: submarine cables, yes, people talk about Australia and solar, but
S1: it is something relatively close by to our neighbourhood, Laos.
S1: With such a huge source of renewables. What goes into
S1: us tapping into that from the power generation perspective,
S2: you could think about losses that you need electrically between
S2: Lao pilot, but he shouldn't. Singapore, we are physically connected
S2: to what is actually something that we need to on.
S2: You have to pass through all the different networks. You've
S2: got to move on laws to support it. You have
S2: to go through. Pilot body should be coordination of how
S2: the electron can actually be pushed from Laos. All the
S2: way to Singapore will be something that we have never
S2: done it, but something that we have to definitely look
S2: out for. The second thing is that will be south easy,
S2: but we also have the assault. So whether each of
S2: the country has the access capacity to try to speed
S2: because most of the country would have planned for your country,
S2: for your own you. There is also another area that
S2: people have to actually, you know, there, whether that would
S2: be the spare capacity or these electronic transmitters. I think
S2: that's why even Singapore has decided to start in a
S2: very modest manner by just trying a 100 megawatt mini
S2: to iron out the operational coordination required to bring power
S2: from Singapore first. Before we see whether there is a
S2: possibility that Peter Wheeler,
S1: I'm going to give a little bit a bit more
S1: about you guys now vital, Soraya. You introduce me to
S1: interesting term a Taylor. Obviously, you're a generator as well
S1: as we talk about what Singapore is doing nationally. Talk
S1: about as well what local power supply such as yourself
S1: have done and must do more to minimise your own
S1: carbon footprint. Explain, for example, your power plants how much
S1: more can be gained in terms of efficiency that you
S1: think is still out there to be gained.
S2: Wipe your pulse. The she has about 1500 megawatt of gas.
S2: So I think with the plans that these are operating
S2: at optimal efficiencies, so you ask me, is there more
S2: efficiency that could be squeezed out? I would say yes,
S2: but it would be actually significant. What is important for
S2: us is that we see that there is a need
S2: to actually work on changing our portfolio mix 100 percent
S2: gas by it to include some power. We've all parented
S2: quite like the Whitetail Group itself is exploring whether they
S2: could develop large scale solar installations in addition to the
S2: transmission grid and actually sell this clean power to Singapore.
S2: And of course, when the power you inject it into
S2: the Singapore grip, that's where the retailer they buy sell
S2: tentacle will take over to actually start, to sell the
S2: electricity and to actually beat the electricity into the wholesale.
S2: So I think that is how we see ourselves being
S2: able to transform who actually and so more green to
S2: our portfolio.
S1: Talk about the national effort, though. Let me get your take.
S1: I'm sure you guys had significant conversations with the government
S1: when they were formulating policies around the carbon tax in
S1: discussions going forward now, and they've talked about raising that.
S1: What's your perspective on that in your conversations with the
S1: government as it explores raising that tax a little bit
S1: more
S2: if you ask any company? Of course we do and
S2: will come with higher tax, but we understand through the composition.
S2: We understand that in order to encourage it to achieve
S2: our sustainability target I need the carbon tax is something
S2: that we definitely cannot avoid. So we are working with
S2: the government to actually see how we can actually moderate
S2: the increase in carbon tax. Hopefully, we will come in
S2: a way that is something that we can still pay
S2: for even.
S1: The interesting thing is this I would imagine that the
S1: carbon tax now is at a low enough level that
S1: generators and suppliers such as yourself can in a way
S1: absorb it. Do you think as it gets higher, therefore,
S1: it will at some point get passed down to the consumer,
S1: which probably is meant to be right so that they
S1: can manage their own electricity usage as well, knowing that
S1: the carbon tax has been factored into the price? Do
S1: you think that it will get to a point where
S1: consumers become more aware that as it gets higher, it
S1: will get passed down to them?
S2: That will be the case. It is impossible for the
S2: generators to go if you any of these carbon tax.
S2: So maybe I see the opportunity to actually mix maybe
S2: greener power that is actually not subject to carbon tax
S2: to be more affordable, so important for us. You continue
S2: to change our portfolio, us say we have a mixture
S2: of a gas fire as well as renewable energy, natural
S2: gas fired plants is quite clean technology, but we can't
S2: just overnight displace that because they are still very important
S2: to ensure that we liability lock system. So I think
S2: we need to deal with the fact that we need
S2: to have a mixture of natural gas, which is subject
S2: to the carbon tax and clean energy, the global carbon tax.
S2: That is the cost that the consumer would have to
S2: pay us moving towards a greener environment.
S1: Maybe a last question now and then try to get
S1: back into a little bit bigger picture, too. In Singapore's
S1: overall efforts like going green, other initiatives are moving to
S1: electric cars, electric buses. You see things, even datacentres are
S1: becoming a big part of it. All these are big
S1: electricity users, right? Obviously. So on the one hand, we
S1: see that demand is obviously going to rise going forward
S1: for electricity. But on the other hand, we have to
S1: wait for technology. We're going to be for infrastructural changes
S1: to happen when you see all these things happening. What
S1: does Wiki Power Soraya think in keeping up with such
S1: increasing demand, but also making sure that increases are manageable
S1: at the same time and also green at the same time?
S1: Isn't it a bit of juggling three or four balls
S1: at the same time
S2: because the system demand will be increasing before these increasing
S2: need for electricity from datacentre or electric vehicle, right? Also
S2: further reinforced that there is a need for all the
S2: natural gas companies to continue to operate in the market
S2: to actually provide the baseload where I think I see
S2: that the increase in demand. We definitely need to bring
S2: in more power will be the most obvious way to
S2: bring in additional power to the system so that actually
S2: we can meet the system demand while actually being green
S2: solely slowly greening the power industry. But zero other than
S2: just looking at physical infection into the treatment, we can
S2: also try to breathe more of this carbon offsetting recusal,
S2: carbon credit or even video at the. That's help to
S2: offset the overall carbon emissions in Singapore.
S1: Well, thank you very much. Thank you, James, and thanks
S1: for listening to the climate conversations. Stay up to date
S1: on CNN's coverage of climate change on CNN Asia. You
S1: can also find this in other CNN podcasts on our
S1: website and on iTunes and Spotify. The team behind this
S1: podcast are Christina Robert Misselling and Erin Lowe. I'm Jamie
S1: Hall until next week.