WEBVTT - Between generating and selling electricity, what’s one player in Singapore doing in the name of climate action and sustainability? | EP 51 0:00:02.040 --> 0:00:07.620 The following is a C and a podcast. We've had 0:00:07.620 --> 0:00:10.379 a little break, but welcome back to the climate conversations. 0:00:10.410 --> 0:00:14.040 I'm Jamie Hope. Natural gas prices have tripled since the 0:00:14.040 --> 0:00:16.860 start of this year, in large part fueled by demand 0:00:16.860 --> 0:00:20.700 from Asian economies emerging from lockdown. And here in Singapore, 0:00:20.700 --> 0:00:24.390 given our dependence on natural gas imports for electricity generation, 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:28.350 the consequence is that electricity costs will surge. Already, the 0:00:28.350 --> 0:00:32.460 government has warned and advised households to conserve electricity. But 0:00:32.460 --> 0:00:38.159 as our society shifts towards greater electrification, think cars, 5G devices, datacentres, 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:41.279 energy demand and costs will only rise. How can we 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:44.820 balance needs with our commitments to reduce carbon emissions? How 0:00:44.820 --> 0:00:48.150 long do we wait before alternative energy sources are reliable? 0:00:48.659 --> 0:00:50.400 And what does this all mean for the man on 0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:52.890 the street who may find his electricity bills going up? 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:57.900 With me to discuss this is Lim Han Kwang, CEO 0:00:57.900 --> 0:01:01.470 of General and group head for Retail Regulation and renewables 0:01:01.470 --> 0:01:05.830 at Whitesell Power Soraya Denticles parent company. He's an 18 0:01:05.850 --> 0:01:09.270 year veteran in the local energy industry. Welcome Hong Kong. 0:01:09.510 --> 0:01:10.729 Hey, hi. Thanks, Jimmy. 0:01:10.830 --> 0:01:12.840 I'm going to jump straight into the first question and, 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:15.390 you know, talk about the industry. Given your experience, you've 0:01:15.390 --> 0:01:18.600 been doing it nearly 20 years now. Start by giving 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:21.810 us a broad sort of overview of what our overall 0:01:21.810 --> 0:01:26.789 national energy and electricity ecosystem looks like now in terms 0:01:26.790 --> 0:01:30.630 of infrastructure, in terms of players that talk about sustainability 0:01:30.780 --> 0:01:33.720 compared to, say, 10 years ago. Right. And what has 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:37.500 changed in the last two years since the pandemic? And 0:01:37.500 --> 0:01:40.709 what trends are you seeing in terms of consumption price, 0:01:40.709 --> 0:01:41.339 things like that? 0:01:41.610 --> 0:01:44.550 The Singapore energy sector has come a long way in. 0:01:44.819 --> 0:01:49.070 He has actually moved from Orbis to achieve natural gas 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:52.530 over the last few years. Actually, from 2.0 to to 0:01:52.530 --> 0:01:56.580 now in India evolve significantly, and now majority of the 0:01:56.580 --> 0:02:00.840 power is actually generated by a very efficient gas cycle. 0:02:01.290 --> 0:02:03.600 90 percent of the coal is actually generated by these 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:06.330 inefficient machine. You look at the mix that we have 0:02:06.330 --> 0:02:08.799 seen in Singapore over the last few years, I think 0:02:09.300 --> 0:02:12.120 that's largely due to climate change. The government has no 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:15.570 one to actually bring in more green power into the space. 0:02:16.230 --> 0:02:18.209 So in the last few years, actually, we are seeing 0:02:18.810 --> 0:02:22.680 more and more solar installations putting into the system as 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:27.600 we are speaking now, about 4500 reconnect that solar PV 0:02:27.780 --> 0:02:31.760 in the system that accounts for about 240 megawatts. If 0:02:31.770 --> 0:02:35.359 you while you look at just the installed capacity, it's 0:02:35.370 --> 0:02:38.610 about five percent of our peak demand of 7000. But 0:02:38.610 --> 0:02:42.910 the more actual electronic that's being generated after netting off 0:02:42.930 --> 0:02:47.580 as the internal consumption and due to the intermittency of 0:02:47.580 --> 0:02:51.330 the solar panel, you do a contribution to the generation 0:02:51.419 --> 0:02:54.240 in total is actually less than one percent. To achieve this, 0:02:55.190 --> 0:02:58.650 a of wind power that's available in the market. The 0:02:58.650 --> 0:03:01.890 government is quite clear that you want to continue to 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:05.040 lower the carbon emission, and we have actually set ourselves 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:08.040 some targets that hopefully by zero trees, you will want 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:11.430 to make sure that solar installation actually heat 2000 megawatt 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:15.390 bill recently. We are also looking at importing power from 0:03:15.389 --> 0:03:19.679 the neighboring country. We have seen countries that allow even 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:22.530 for militia by trying to import power from them to 0:03:22.530 --> 0:03:26.190 actually increase more renewable power injecting into our group. 0:03:26.300 --> 0:03:28.380 Now you know that the interesting about about you and 0:03:28.380 --> 0:03:31.350 you have two hats, so to speak, your generator as 0:03:31.350 --> 0:03:35.400 well as a retailer, right? How does this model affect 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:36.900 the way that you work? Does it make it more 0:03:36.900 --> 0:03:43.050 efficient in bringing such new alternative options for all customers 0:03:43.050 --> 0:03:45.660 onto the table? What kind of efficiencies are you seeing? 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:49.850 She calls Jen Taylor. I believe we are all retailers 0:03:49.860 --> 0:03:54.540 that's backed by power generation company. She brings about a 0:03:54.540 --> 0:03:58.290 lot efficiency because we are able to control the amount 0:03:58.290 --> 0:04:01.380 of electricity that we generate, able to control the cause, 0:04:01.380 --> 0:04:05.670 and therefore, with all the efficiency throughout the company to 0:04:05.670 --> 0:04:07.470 the end to end process, actually, we are able to 0:04:07.470 --> 0:04:11.220 provide very affordable as well as competitive price for our consumer. 0:04:11.460 --> 0:04:16.530 Going back to April 2018, that's when EMC, our Energy 0:04:16.529 --> 0:04:20.460 Market Authority, began moves to launch this new open electricity market. 0:04:20.460 --> 0:04:23.100 And by 2019, the year after, all of us can 0:04:23.100 --> 0:04:26.099 now choose from different retailers looking at it from the 0:04:26.100 --> 0:04:29.370 consumer perspective, aside from choosing a plan that fits our 0:04:29.370 --> 0:04:33.030 budget and needs of households. I learned that companies like 0:04:33.029 --> 0:04:36.300 yours now offers carbon offsets. This thing called the power 0:04:36.300 --> 0:04:40.320 eco add on. Explain how this contributes to your overall 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:42.800 strategy and how to it take a bean has. Do 0:04:42.810 --> 0:04:45.839 customers really know about this or are they really attracted 0:04:45.839 --> 0:04:46.200 to it? 0:04:46.410 --> 0:04:49.470 Jimmy, it's good that you're aware of what you see 0:04:49.830 --> 0:04:53.330 in Singapore lately. You're in the market was open one 0:04:53.339 --> 0:04:56.790 eight and are actually about 12 or year because we 0:04:56.790 --> 0:05:00.060 can be told it could be. So being divestiture? So 0:05:00.060 --> 0:05:02.190 it's very important for us to stay ahead of the 0:05:02.190 --> 0:05:05.880 curve by understanding what our customers actually require and keep 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:08.339 it up. And we look at the trend and we 0:05:08.339 --> 0:05:11.969 know that consumers are getting more and more conscious about 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:15.060 how they can actually help the environment. And that's why 0:05:15.150 --> 0:05:18.280 we came out with the power eco only product. While 0:05:18.300 --> 0:05:21.420 customer we understand or not every customer may be prepared 0:05:21.420 --> 0:05:23.789 to buy a 100 percent green. We may want to 0:05:23.790 --> 0:05:28.830 choose the green contribution level that suits the affordability before 0:05:28.830 --> 0:05:31.110 the choose the plan. So we then we came out 0:05:31.110 --> 0:05:33.659 with these how we go on with the customers, any 0:05:33.660 --> 0:05:36.359 power plan before we get to choose whether they would 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:39.750 like to have 25 percent, 50 percent, 75 percent, 100 0:05:39.750 --> 0:05:43.440 percent of green contribution in the electricity plan. So it 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:45.779 sounds like a public key concept to you. So that's 0:05:45.779 --> 0:05:47.640 exactly how we came up with the ideas. 0:05:47.850 --> 0:05:50.250 OK, explain to me how it works. If I choose 0:05:50.250 --> 0:05:51.779 100 percent, what does it mean? 0:05:52.020 --> 0:05:55.320 Should the honor actually force on? What we call a 0:05:55.330 --> 0:06:00.250 carbon neutral electricity plan, meaning that while the electricity that's 0:06:00.250 --> 0:06:02.919 being supplied to you continues to be drawn from the 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:06.040 grid and the generator from the gas fired machine in 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:09.010 the system, what we do is that we will actually, 0:06:09.010 --> 0:06:13.839 which is either carbon credit or renewable energy. So from 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:17.409 green projects not using a full offset or Singapore to 0:06:17.410 --> 0:06:20.680 actually help to offset your carbon emission for the electricity 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:21.460 that you are using. 0:06:21.820 --> 0:06:24.460 What's the incentive for me? I mean, obviously, let's say 0:06:24.460 --> 0:06:27.549 I'm entirely green conscious and I want to do as 0:06:27.550 --> 0:06:31.570 much as I can, and I have the financial capacity 0:06:31.570 --> 0:06:34.660 to do it right. What's going to sort of make 0:06:34.660 --> 0:06:37.840 me go for 100 percent versus, let's say, the 50 percent? 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:39.580 What's your value proposition to me? 0:06:40.210 --> 0:06:41.920 That's what I a single. If you really want to 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:44.620 have green electricity, what can you really do, right? So 0:06:44.620 --> 0:06:46.150 I think one of them, of course, if you have 0:06:46.150 --> 0:06:49.570 a rooftop house because you just like our own solar installation, 0:06:49.570 --> 0:06:52.300 I think that's actually one very quickly when you install 0:06:52.300 --> 0:06:54.330 your own solar panel and then you get supplied with 0:06:54.339 --> 0:06:57.010 green power. Alternatively, if you don't have a pot of 0:06:57.010 --> 0:06:59.740 your own light, you can actually try to see whether 0:06:59.740 --> 0:07:03.310 anybody has a rooftop solar into a green energy by daylight. 0:07:03.310 --> 0:07:06.159 You see that. But then if all these options are 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:08.920 not available, the best we know in the market for 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.140 you to do your part for the environment, actually to 0:07:11.140 --> 0:07:15.700 choose the carbon neutral electricity where you actually make payment 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:19.570 for the carbon credits or renewable energy source to support 0:07:19.570 --> 0:07:24.010 green projects to offset the emission of electricity consumption that 0:07:24.010 --> 0:07:26.500 you're using. So if you asked me whether you would 0:07:26.500 --> 0:07:29.800 like to do 100 percent or to, you do 50 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:33.790 percent honesty, I think that's why we launched the eco option. 0:07:34.090 --> 0:07:36.970 You actually get to choose what you want. For example, 0:07:37.160 --> 0:07:40.070 I just give you some numbers that you decided to 0:07:40.090 --> 0:07:43.330 go for carbon credits and you got 50 percent. That 0:07:43.330 --> 0:07:45.580 will cost you about comedy based on a carbon price 0:07:45.580 --> 0:07:47.800 about 80 cents per month, 80 cents. 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:50.320 In addition to, let's say, does it depend on how 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:51.580 much electricity you use? 0:07:51.890 --> 0:07:53.860 Yes, I think these could be phased out based on 0:07:53.860 --> 0:07:57.540 the Singapore average consumption of 100 kilowatt hour till you 0:07:57.580 --> 0:07:59.320 think about it is that it is a more for 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:02.690 a month or 50 percent while using carbon credit to 0:08:02.770 --> 0:08:05.920 be something that suits your budget. Why not write? The 0:08:05.920 --> 0:08:09.730 math is quite simple, but you just so you be sleepy. 0:08:10.270 --> 0:08:12.970 A typical household. Maybe you just pay another one dollar 0:08:12.970 --> 0:08:15.520 60 cents. So depending on your budget, I would say 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:17.200 that it's really free for you to decide. 0:08:17.770 --> 0:08:20.619 Yes, interesting. How do I get reassured that if I 0:08:20.620 --> 0:08:23.320 pay the $1 60 cents, it goes to the right places? 0:08:23.320 --> 0:08:25.630 And do I have a choice in where it goes 0:08:25.630 --> 0:08:27.340 to where the credits are paid into? 0:08:27.580 --> 0:08:30.400 At this point, you don't get to choose where you get. 0:08:30.820 --> 0:08:32.710 I should give you a choice whether you want to 0:08:32.710 --> 0:08:35.410 buy carbon credits or you going to buy the new 0:08:35.559 --> 0:08:40.400 energy system and could actually make sure that we produce 0:08:40.420 --> 0:08:44.380 all our carbon credits or the renewable energy source. So 0:08:44.710 --> 0:08:48.820 it is a big fight, but internationally recognized standards. For example, 0:08:48.820 --> 0:08:52.540 for our carbon credits, we actually purchase carbon credits only 0:08:52.540 --> 0:08:55.360 from jet that has met the standard called the very fight. 0:08:56.110 --> 0:09:00.600 This administered by a company called Beaver Independent Party that 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:03.910 explain these ideas and all project that has passed the 0:09:03.910 --> 0:09:07.870 verified carbon standard will go through a robust independent verification process, 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:11.140 and any carbon credits issued by them is being tracked 0:09:11.140 --> 0:09:14.830 on the registry to ensure that emission reductions are not copied, 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:18.429 and similarly, that we procure renewable energy. So we are 0:09:18.429 --> 0:09:22.120 buying them from projects that fulfill the extended. So I 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:25.030 will say that by us buying from a reputable or 0:09:25.030 --> 0:09:27.640 credible source, I think that should give you the assurance 0:09:27.650 --> 0:09:31.240 that your money has actually gone to support the green projects. 0:09:31.450 --> 0:09:33.760 It's good to hear so that the key thing for 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:36.310 me now. How has the take up in the U.S., 0:09:36.730 --> 0:09:40.630 Singaporeans being vaguely interested in paying a little bit more? Well, 0:09:40.630 --> 0:09:41.950 it's being a little bit more green. 0:09:42.340 --> 0:09:45.730 We launch it around August, doing the National Day period. 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:49.270 I would say the initial response. I would say I'm 0:09:49.270 --> 0:09:53.439 quite satisfied. We actually see about 10 times more new 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:57.490 customers signing up for this compared to a period where 0:09:57.490 --> 0:10:00.179 I just offer no option but just 100 percent green 0:10:00.250 --> 0:10:03.760 or do people. What is even more encouraging that I 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:07.420 also see some of my existing renewable customer who are 0:10:07.420 --> 0:10:11.860 not green actually choosing be political on when they renewed 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:15.849 my stimulus. I will say that is encouraging. View that 0:10:15.850 --> 0:10:19.950 it takes time as consumers become more aware of the 0:10:19.990 --> 0:10:22.150 climate change and what to do with the pot. I 0:10:22.150 --> 0:10:25.300 believe this on. We'll continue to gain traction. 0:10:30.990 --> 0:10:33.390 Do you think in the longer term, the action where 0:10:33.390 --> 0:10:36.150 the real influence is going to be may not be 0:10:36.150 --> 0:10:40.140 in households then, but the bigger electricity's are consumers. It 0:10:40.140 --> 0:10:43.500 could be corporate, it could be industry. Are you guys 0:10:43.500 --> 0:10:46.410 looking in that direction or you sort of balancing your 0:10:46.650 --> 0:10:49.380 approaches between households and larger consumers? 0:10:50.010 --> 0:10:54.270 This carbon neutral electricity can actually be offered to both 0:10:54.270 --> 0:10:59.610 residential S.O.S. the commercial. So we have started by introducing 0:10:59.610 --> 0:11:03.360 it to the residential customer and definitely offering such so-called 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:06.720 carbon neutral electricity is something that we are also in 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:09.880 the works to provide to our commercial industrial customer base bill. 0:11:10.230 --> 0:11:12.360 I'm going to take this sort of another little bit 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:15.209 of a bigger picture and talk about something that's really 0:11:15.210 --> 0:11:18.569 happening now. We see what's happening in Europe, for example, 0:11:18.570 --> 0:11:21.870 right where natural gas prices have been going up. Minister 0:11:21.870 --> 0:11:24.959 Gan Kim Yong now has said that electricity prices here 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:27.030 are bound to rise as well, telling people to be 0:11:27.030 --> 0:11:30.270 careful about how they use electricity. As you see all 0:11:30.270 --> 0:11:33.810 these sort of developments happening, do you think these sort 0:11:33.809 --> 0:11:37.199 of external events, these price shocks give us more impetus 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:41.520 to look at even more alternatives beyond energy imports. And 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:44.040 what do you do? Does this have any impact on 0:11:44.370 --> 0:11:47.250 your efforts both rolling out on this, as well as 0:11:47.250 --> 0:11:49.559 things like this power eco add on and try to 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:51.630 push people to create a little bit more for the 0:11:51.630 --> 0:11:52.290 green option. 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:55.949 We all recognize that Singapore, a country where we do 0:11:55.950 --> 0:11:58.600 not have a lot of natural resources, so even for 0:11:58.610 --> 0:12:01.290 a power plant is generated by natural gas and electric, 0:12:01.290 --> 0:12:04.170 it's important the price of all these to all with 0:12:04.170 --> 0:12:08.309 you are definitely affected by the global price movement or 0:12:08.309 --> 0:12:12.410 demand supply. So I think we still fight that increase 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:15.080 in price is unavoidable if the global price of the 0:12:15.330 --> 0:12:19.720 materials are increasing as well. This is not actually the 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:22.530 real US from the direction that we should continue to 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:25.469 try to achieve and or what that net zero by 0:12:25.470 --> 0:12:28.229 two zero five zero should that the temperature do not 0:12:28.230 --> 0:12:30.750 increase by one point by adding We need to stay 0:12:30.750 --> 0:12:33.780 on course. You look at what you go on, actually, 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:38.760 does it fluctuate with the so-called fuel cost switching, even 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:41.820 though the underlying electricity could be higher? But actually the 0:12:41.820 --> 0:12:45.900 cost to produce the carbon credits also is not changing 0:12:45.900 --> 0:12:50.490 yet because these are not theoretical. So I would think 0:12:50.490 --> 0:12:53.500 that the incremental cost to you to be increased to 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:56.130 remain the same. If I look at the current price 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:59.350 the retailers is offering to the residential, even after you 0:12:59.580 --> 0:13:02.679 on the pelikula, I think it's still cheaper than directly to, 0:13:03.420 --> 0:13:05.939 but interest to go green should continue to in a 0:13:05.940 --> 0:13:07.140 lot traction moving forward. 0:13:07.570 --> 0:13:10.570 Yeah, I'm therefore going to ask you the next question 0:13:10.570 --> 0:13:13.440 that you put on your wiki also right ahead. And 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:16.199 talk a little bit more about the alternatives there for 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:19.350 in renewables. You know, our government has announced the nice 0:13:19.350 --> 0:13:22.290 part of the Singapore Green Plan, working on four switches 0:13:22.290 --> 0:13:25.950 of supply natural gas as we've been talking about solar 0:13:25.950 --> 0:13:29.820 regional power grids and emerging low carbon alternatives as part 0:13:29.820 --> 0:13:32.729 of the overall national transition. Obviously, it's not going to 0:13:32.730 --> 0:13:34.890 be easy. A huge part of it is going to 0:13:34.890 --> 0:13:38.459 be infrastructural, sitting from where you are, what are the 0:13:38.460 --> 0:13:41.640 biggest sort of obstacles or challenges for a country like 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:44.970 Singapore in terms of infrastructure going ahead and being able 0:13:44.970 --> 0:13:48.059 to tap on all these four in parallel and sort 0:13:48.059 --> 0:13:50.490 of being able to switch from one priority to the other? 0:13:50.490 --> 0:13:54.240 Because as we have seen, yes, natural gas is perhaps 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:57.020 one of the cleanest and most efficient energies. But if 0:13:57.030 --> 0:13:58.530 you're going to move away from that as well to 0:13:58.530 --> 0:14:02.400 other things, a solar regional power grid, what are the 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:04.349 challenges that we need to look at as we head 0:14:04.350 --> 0:14:06.510 towards 2030 and beyond? You think 0:14:07.080 --> 0:14:08.640 so? You're right. The way we look at it, we've 0:14:08.640 --> 0:14:12.210 got a big decision on how we want the energy 0:14:12.300 --> 0:14:14.429 story or Singapore to be like, we actually need to 0:14:14.429 --> 0:14:19.230 look at tree. I spoke the environmental sustainability, affordability and 0:14:19.380 --> 0:14:22.770 reliability component. I think these are what we typically call 0:14:22.770 --> 0:14:26.010 the Trailhead model that any policymaker will have to actually 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:29.310 consider when they want to look into how to get 0:14:29.310 --> 0:14:32.820 the right mix of public to Singapore for the fall. 0:14:32.820 --> 0:14:34.980 Suggest if you look at the right. I think solar 0:14:34.980 --> 0:14:38.190 energy definitely will continue to be the most promising renewable 0:14:38.190 --> 0:14:41.430 energy source in Singapore, and we've all targeted weeks to 0:14:41.430 --> 0:14:43.950 gigawatt peak. I think to go up it will be 0:14:43.950 --> 0:14:47.700 the maximum, hopefully, that we could actually get from the 0:14:47.700 --> 0:14:51.310 so-called land and the buildable space in Singapore so that 0:14:51.310 --> 0:14:53.820 you sell would not be able to do all the 0:14:53.820 --> 0:14:57.119 requirements and more. You know, solar power fluctuate depending on 0:14:57.140 --> 0:15:00.990 whether it's not just about sunlight. And so you can 0:15:00.990 --> 0:15:05.310 actually meet the sustainability by introducing solar energy. But the 0:15:05.310 --> 0:15:09.000 intermittency created by the solar is something that we also 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:11.820 need to look out for. So next, stepping in the 0:15:11.820 --> 0:15:15.240 regional policy today, I think it's only one connection we 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:18.360 might share. But actually, that connection was never meant for 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:22.620 commercial purposes to get access to more sustainable energy sources 0:15:23.070 --> 0:15:25.710 that otherwise would not be available in Singapore. And we 0:15:25.710 --> 0:15:29.450 definitely need to wait and see how we get renewable 0:15:29.730 --> 0:15:32.609 power to single. And of course, the biggest challenge is 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:34.780 how do we bring it in? So I think that 0:15:34.780 --> 0:15:37.680 is where in terms of course, who will want to 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:41.760 invest in submarine cables to bring power into Singapore would 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:44.910 definitely be a key consideration if we want to make 0:15:44.910 --> 0:15:50.310 that happen. Similarly, importing coal has its own drawbacks. Well, yeah, 0:15:50.310 --> 0:15:52.750 of course. For example, if a submarine cable is dull 0:15:53.100 --> 0:15:55.650 due to outage, it could take many months to repair 0:15:55.650 --> 0:15:58.190 and do in dispute. So what happened to support as 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:00.630 part of false pictures? I can't see that natural gas 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:04.320 this one of the street, because I think the natural 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.290 gas will continue to play a very important role in 0:16:07.830 --> 0:16:11.070 Singapore market. Why do I even leave all that? You 0:16:11.070 --> 0:16:13.740 pull aside just solar? I don't think we would be 0:16:13.740 --> 0:16:16.500 able to get enough to supply 100 percent single fossil 0:16:16.710 --> 0:16:19.380 gas fired that she will continue to provide what I 0:16:19.380 --> 0:16:22.620 call the beast. All these gas fired, which she can 0:16:22.620 --> 0:16:25.480 also be converted to what we call fast, that we 0:16:25.510 --> 0:16:29.130 should help to address that intermittency issue caused by the 0:16:29.150 --> 0:16:33.180 solar installations in Singapore, some of the older coal mines. 0:16:33.180 --> 0:16:36.359 They could also be repurposed to provide backup facility for 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:39.570 the public so that this machine to actually be run 0:16:39.570 --> 0:16:42.180 when there is a major outage of that. So the 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:45.990 pollution is actually emerging technology things that the government is 0:16:45.990 --> 0:16:50.490 exploring the use of hydrogen to pull up the generator 0:16:50.490 --> 0:16:53.520 and carbon capture. But based on what we see, all 0:16:53.610 --> 0:16:55.920 these new technologies do have a long way to go. 0:16:56.010 --> 0:16:58.500 Maybe after two zero three five would be something where 0:16:58.500 --> 0:17:02.330 all this technology will be able to explore. So for now, 0:17:02.430 --> 0:17:06.570 the deployment of solar power import and continued usage of 0:17:06.570 --> 0:17:10.990 the gas emission would be the right strategy for quite. 0:17:17.050 --> 0:17:20.830 You mentioned Laos early on in the conversation, and obviously 0:17:20.830 --> 0:17:24.490 the potential that people see in I draw from places 0:17:24.490 --> 0:17:29.410 like Louth explained the complications and the sort of infrastructural 0:17:29.530 --> 0:17:32.440 challenges as well. If we are going to look into 0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:35.379 options such as that, obviously when you talk about underground 0:17:35.380 --> 0:17:38.979 submarine cables, yes, people talk about Australia and solar, but 0:17:38.980 --> 0:17:42.050 it is something relatively close by to our neighbourhood, Laos. 0:17:42.330 --> 0:17:46.210 With such a huge source of renewables. What goes into 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:50.169 us tapping into that from the power generation perspective, 0:17:50.590 --> 0:17:53.800 you could think about losses that you need electrically between 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:58.030 Lao pilot, but he shouldn't. Singapore, we are physically connected 0:17:58.030 --> 0:18:02.060 to what is actually something that we need to on. 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:05.439 You have to pass through all the different networks. You've 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:07.629 got to move on laws to support it. You have 0:18:07.630 --> 0:18:11.470 to go through. Pilot body should be coordination of how 0:18:11.470 --> 0:18:15.369 the electron can actually be pushed from Laos. All the 0:18:15.369 --> 0:18:18.700 way to Singapore will be something that we have never 0:18:18.700 --> 0:18:21.609 done it, but something that we have to definitely look 0:18:21.609 --> 0:18:24.790 out for. The second thing is that will be south easy, 0:18:24.790 --> 0:18:27.850 but we also have the assault. So whether each of 0:18:27.850 --> 0:18:32.140 the country has the access capacity to try to speed 0:18:32.140 --> 0:18:36.270 because most of the country would have planned for your country, 0:18:36.670 --> 0:18:39.550 for your own you. There is also another area that 0:18:39.700 --> 0:18:43.419 people have to actually, you know, there, whether that would 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:48.340 be the spare capacity or these electronic transmitters. I think 0:18:48.340 --> 0:18:50.530 that's why even Singapore has decided to start in a 0:18:50.530 --> 0:18:54.850 very modest manner by just trying a 100 megawatt mini 0:18:54.850 --> 0:18:58.720 to iron out the operational coordination required to bring power 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:02.350 from Singapore first. Before we see whether there is a 0:19:02.350 --> 0:19:04.359 possibility that Peter Wheeler, 0:19:04.810 --> 0:19:07.750 I'm going to give a little bit a bit more 0:19:07.750 --> 0:19:11.979 about you guys now vital, Soraya. You introduce me to 0:19:11.980 --> 0:19:16.030 interesting term a Taylor. Obviously, you're a generator as well 0:19:16.390 --> 0:19:19.180 as we talk about what Singapore is doing nationally. Talk 0:19:19.180 --> 0:19:22.750 about as well what local power supply such as yourself 0:19:23.140 --> 0:19:26.320 have done and must do more to minimise your own 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:30.760 carbon footprint. Explain, for example, your power plants how much 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:33.940 more can be gained in terms of efficiency that you 0:19:33.940 --> 0:19:35.560 think is still out there to be gained. 0:19:36.130 --> 0:19:39.790 Wipe your pulse. The she has about 1500 megawatt of gas. 0:19:40.780 --> 0:19:43.359 So I think with the plans that these are operating 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:48.010 at optimal efficiencies, so you ask me, is there more 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:51.520 efficiency that could be squeezed out? I would say yes, 0:19:51.520 --> 0:19:55.360 but it would be actually significant. What is important for 0:19:55.359 --> 0:19:57.250 us is that we see that there is a need 0:19:57.820 --> 0:20:01.540 to actually work on changing our portfolio mix 100 percent 0:20:01.540 --> 0:20:05.800 gas by it to include some power. We've all parented 0:20:05.859 --> 0:20:09.939 quite like the Whitetail Group itself is exploring whether they 0:20:09.940 --> 0:20:14.020 could develop large scale solar installations in addition to the 0:20:14.020 --> 0:20:18.050 transmission grid and actually sell this clean power to Singapore. 0:20:18.070 --> 0:20:20.920 And of course, when the power you inject it into 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:23.680 the Singapore grip, that's where the retailer they buy sell 0:20:23.690 --> 0:20:27.340 tentacle will take over to actually start, to sell the 0:20:27.340 --> 0:20:30.760 electricity and to actually beat the electricity into the wholesale. 0:20:31.150 --> 0:20:33.970 So I think that is how we see ourselves being 0:20:33.970 --> 0:20:38.020 able to transform who actually and so more green to 0:20:38.020 --> 0:20:38.830 our portfolio. 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:42.270 Talk about the national effort, though. Let me get your take. 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:46.150 I'm sure you guys had significant conversations with the government 0:20:46.150 --> 0:20:50.650 when they were formulating policies around the carbon tax in 0:20:50.650 --> 0:20:53.649 discussions going forward now, and they've talked about raising that. 0:20:54.070 --> 0:20:57.010 What's your perspective on that in your conversations with the 0:20:57.010 --> 0:20:59.979 government as it explores raising that tax a little bit 0:20:59.980 --> 0:21:00.250 more 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:04.209 if you ask any company? Of course we do and 0:21:04.340 --> 0:21:08.320 will come with higher tax, but we understand through the composition. 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:11.680 We understand that in order to encourage it to achieve 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:15.070 our sustainability target I need the carbon tax is something 0:21:15.070 --> 0:21:19.510 that we definitely cannot avoid. So we are working with 0:21:19.690 --> 0:21:23.140 the government to actually see how we can actually moderate 0:21:23.500 --> 0:21:26.920 the increase in carbon tax. Hopefully, we will come in 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:30.040 a way that is something that we can still pay 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:30.490 for even. 0:21:30.940 --> 0:21:33.489 The interesting thing is this I would imagine that the 0:21:33.490 --> 0:21:36.520 carbon tax now is at a low enough level that 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:39.580 generators and suppliers such as yourself can in a way 0:21:39.580 --> 0:21:42.670 absorb it. Do you think as it gets higher, therefore, 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:45.490 it will at some point get passed down to the consumer, 0:21:45.490 --> 0:21:47.619 which probably is meant to be right so that they 0:21:47.619 --> 0:21:50.500 can manage their own electricity usage as well, knowing that 0:21:50.500 --> 0:21:53.800 the carbon tax has been factored into the price? Do 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:55.510 you think that it will get to a point where 0:21:55.510 --> 0:21:58.180 consumers become more aware that as it gets higher, it 0:21:58.180 --> 0:21:59.380 will get passed down to them? 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:02.290 That will be the case. It is impossible for the 0:22:02.290 --> 0:22:05.810 generators to go if you any of these carbon tax. 0:22:05.830 --> 0:22:09.669 So maybe I see the opportunity to actually mix maybe 0:22:09.670 --> 0:22:12.700 greener power that is actually not subject to carbon tax 0:22:12.790 --> 0:22:17.060 to be more affordable, so important for us. You continue 0:22:17.060 --> 0:22:20.060 to change our portfolio, us say we have a mixture 0:22:20.060 --> 0:22:23.780 of a gas fire as well as renewable energy, natural 0:22:23.780 --> 0:22:27.350 gas fired plants is quite clean technology, but we can't 0:22:27.350 --> 0:22:31.040 just overnight displace that because they are still very important 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:33.770 to ensure that we liability lock system. So I think 0:22:33.770 --> 0:22:36.110 we need to deal with the fact that we need 0:22:36.109 --> 0:22:38.990 to have a mixture of natural gas, which is subject 0:22:38.990 --> 0:22:42.230 to the carbon tax and clean energy, the global carbon tax. 0:22:42.530 --> 0:22:44.840 That is the cost that the consumer would have to 0:22:44.869 --> 0:22:48.560 pay us moving towards a greener environment. 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:51.200 Maybe a last question now and then try to get 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:54.350 back into a little bit bigger picture, too. In Singapore's 0:22:54.350 --> 0:22:58.550 overall efforts like going green, other initiatives are moving to 0:22:59.180 --> 0:23:04.159 electric cars, electric buses. You see things, even datacentres are 0:23:04.160 --> 0:23:06.290 becoming a big part of it. All these are big 0:23:06.290 --> 0:23:10.580 electricity users, right? Obviously. So on the one hand, we 0:23:10.580 --> 0:23:14.120 see that demand is obviously going to rise going forward 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:17.149 for electricity. But on the other hand, we have to 0:23:17.150 --> 0:23:20.359 wait for technology. We're going to be for infrastructural changes 0:23:20.359 --> 0:23:23.600 to happen when you see all these things happening. What 0:23:23.600 --> 0:23:26.960 does Wiki Power Soraya think in keeping up with such 0:23:26.960 --> 0:23:31.490 increasing demand, but also making sure that increases are manageable 0:23:31.790 --> 0:23:34.369 at the same time and also green at the same time? 0:23:34.369 --> 0:23:36.590 Isn't it a bit of juggling three or four balls 0:23:36.590 --> 0:23:37.220 at the same time 0:23:37.580 --> 0:23:40.730 because the system demand will be increasing before these increasing 0:23:41.480 --> 0:23:46.550 need for electricity from datacentre or electric vehicle, right? Also 0:23:46.550 --> 0:23:48.890 further reinforced that there is a need for all the 0:23:48.890 --> 0:23:52.790 natural gas companies to continue to operate in the market 0:23:52.790 --> 0:23:56.630 to actually provide the baseload where I think I see 0:23:56.630 --> 0:23:59.990 that the increase in demand. We definitely need to bring 0:23:59.990 --> 0:24:03.530 in more power will be the most obvious way to 0:24:03.530 --> 0:24:07.510 bring in additional power to the system so that actually 0:24:07.550 --> 0:24:10.460 we can meet the system demand while actually being green 0:24:10.760 --> 0:24:15.860 solely slowly greening the power industry. But zero other than 0:24:15.859 --> 0:24:19.600 just looking at physical infection into the treatment, we can 0:24:19.609 --> 0:24:24.110 also try to breathe more of this carbon offsetting recusal, 0:24:24.109 --> 0:24:27.590 carbon credit or even video at the. That's help to 0:24:27.590 --> 0:24:30.980 offset the overall carbon emissions in Singapore. 0:24:31.400 --> 0:24:36.320 Well, thank you very much. Thank you, James, and thanks 0:24:36.320 --> 0:24:38.900 for listening to the climate conversations. Stay up to date 0:24:38.900 --> 0:24:42.440 on CNN's coverage of climate change on CNN Asia. You 0:24:42.440 --> 0:24:44.959 can also find this in other CNN podcasts on our 0:24:44.960 --> 0:24:48.080 website and on iTunes and Spotify. The team behind this 0:24:48.080 --> 0:24:52.010 podcast are Christina Robert Misselling and Erin Lowe. I'm Jamie 0:24:52.010 --> 0:24:53.060 Hall until next week.