1 00:00:03,619 --> 00:00:08,180 Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast. Steve, ask me what's 2 00:00:08,180 --> 00:00:10,619 Speaker 1: my favorite month of the year. All right, what is 3 00:00:10,619 --> 00:00:15,300 Speaker 1: your favorite month in the year? December. Why? It's my birthday, 4 00:00:15,819 --> 00:00:21,709 Speaker 1: and the podcast team takes a much needed break in December. Ah, OK, 5 00:00:21,799 --> 00:00:24,290 Speaker 1: that sounds nice. I should have known that was coming. 6 00:00:25,819 --> 00:00:28,819 Speaker 1: So I'm telling you now. So what happens in December 7 00:00:28,819 --> 00:00:32,549 Speaker 1: is that we clear our leave and we think of 8 00:00:32,549 --> 00:00:34,939 Speaker 1: new material that we can come back with a bang 9 00:00:34,939 --> 00:00:38,700 Speaker 1: in January 2025. But if you're listening in, don't worry, 10 00:00:38,830 --> 00:00:41,229 Speaker 1: we will still fill the airtime with some of the 11 00:00:41,229 --> 00:00:44,389 Speaker 1: great stuff that we've done before and we'll just replay 12 00:00:44,389 --> 00:00:45,470 Speaker 1: it for you so that you can. 13 00:00:45,665 --> 00:00:48,615 Speaker 1: it and maybe feel it's even greater than it was before. Yeah, 14 00:00:48,814 --> 00:00:51,694 Speaker 1: so we picked what we call our best of and 15 00:00:51,694 --> 00:00:56,215 Speaker 1: these are our top performing episodes for 2024. All December 16 00:00:56,215 --> 00:00:59,775 Speaker 1: you get to hear our voices, so tune in and 17 00:00:59,775 --> 00:01:01,935 Speaker 1: we'll be back with a blast in the brand new 18 00:01:01,935 --> 00:01:05,485 Speaker 1: year in January 2025. Yeah, don't miss us too much. 19 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: So hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Deep 20 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,559 Speaker 1: Dive with me, Stephen and Chris Rea. Hi Steve, how 21 00:01:13,559 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: was your week? It's been pretty good so far. OK, 22 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 1: busy as usual. Yeah, yeah. OK. So if you guys 23 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: have a topic or if you want us to talk 24 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:23,919 Speaker 1: to a guest for this podcast, you could write to us. 25 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:28,940 Speaker 1: You can send your email to CNA podcasts at Mediacorp.com.sg. 26 00:01:29,199 --> 00:01:31,269 Speaker 1: Because you've seen the show, it's on YouTube as well, 27 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:32,878 Speaker 1: so you get to see what the format is like, 28 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:34,839 Speaker 1: you get to see all our beautiful faces, you know, 29 00:01:34,919 --> 00:01:35,269 Speaker 1: I mean. 30 00:01:35,589 --> 00:01:37,289 Speaker 1: So yeah, do log in there, let us know what 31 00:01:37,290 --> 00:01:39,649 Speaker 1: you think because we do love to hear from you. OK, 32 00:01:39,769 --> 00:01:44,569 Speaker 1: beautiful is subjective because for some, as Steve says, seeing 33 00:01:44,569 --> 00:01:45,220 Speaker 1: is believing. 34 00:01:49,949 --> 00:01:52,830 Speaker 1: This week we turn our attention to something that's been 35 00:01:52,830 --> 00:01:54,269 Speaker 1: around for a very long time. 36 00:01:54,650 --> 00:01:58,860 Speaker 1: But now I feel it is supercharged and in some 37 00:01:58,860 --> 00:02:03,069 Speaker 1: cases in high definition. What we talking about? I don't 38 00:02:03,069 --> 00:02:04,250 Speaker 1: have to guess because I have the script in front 39 00:02:04,250 --> 00:02:08,539 Speaker 1: of me. It's about bullying. Yes, in schools. Steve, do 40 00:02:08,538 --> 00:02:11,500 Speaker 1: you watch these videos that go viral about? I mean 41 00:02:11,500 --> 00:02:15,169 Speaker 1: I've seen them. I don't intentionally search them out to you, 42 00:02:15,500 --> 00:02:17,679 Speaker 1: do you watch it? Yeah, I do, I do. Not 43 00:02:17,679 --> 00:02:19,388 Speaker 1: necessarily all the ways on how long it is. OK, 44 00:02:19,460 --> 00:02:19,859 Speaker 1: I can't. 45 00:02:20,100 --> 00:02:22,478 Speaker 1: OK, oh, you can't, why not? Yeah, I just, I, 46 00:02:22,610 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: you know, I have an aversion to little kids being 47 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,410 Speaker 1: beaten up as a parent, right? I look at it 48 00:02:28,410 --> 00:02:31,970 Speaker 1: this way that what if it's my kids, right? I 49 00:02:31,970 --> 00:02:34,918 Speaker 1: automatically shut off. Same reason I don't watch dash cam 50 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:39,039 Speaker 1: cameras of accidents do you watch? Yeah, it comes up. 51 00:02:39,279 --> 00:02:41,559 Speaker 1: I want to see how the accident happened and what happened, 52 00:02:41,690 --> 00:02:44,250 Speaker 1: so I'm curious, so that's why I watch. OK, but 53 00:02:44,250 --> 00:02:45,570 Speaker 1: we've had a couple of these. 54 00:02:45,660 --> 00:02:49,479 Speaker 1: Viral videos of kids being bullied, beaten up, etc. Have 55 00:02:49,479 --> 00:02:54,399 Speaker 1: you encountered bullies? Either for yourself as a student or 56 00:02:54,399 --> 00:02:58,000 Speaker 1: as a parent? I can't remember as a student myself, 57 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,229 Speaker 1: but as a parent, I think my kids have had 58 00:03:01,229 --> 00:03:05,839 Speaker 1: moments when they were troubled by people at school. OK, 59 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 1: I don't remember being bullied in school. I think it 60 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:11,119 Speaker 1: might be something to do with me. 61 00:03:11,199 --> 00:03:15,070 Speaker 1: Being like the helpful funny prefect. So they didn't pick 62 00:03:15,070 --> 00:03:19,989 Speaker 1: on people like that like you, they didn't pick on you, right? 63 00:03:20,110 --> 00:03:23,429 Speaker 1: But my boys were certainly bullied. I can tell you 64 00:03:23,429 --> 00:03:27,350 Speaker 1: that for sure. It starts on the school bus, they 65 00:03:27,350 --> 00:03:31,579 Speaker 1: start calling them names. They will take their things, for example, 66 00:03:31,750 --> 00:03:34,350 Speaker 1: one time they took their bag and they just like 67 00:03:34,350 --> 00:03:36,669 Speaker 1: the guy got off the bus without his school bag. 68 00:03:37,020 --> 00:03:39,830 Speaker 1: And then they kicked them. Yeah, the older one went 69 00:03:39,830 --> 00:03:43,710 Speaker 1: to a boys school. And I thought that the first 70 00:03:43,710 --> 00:03:48,350 Speaker 1: two years especially was very stressful for him. Um, you know, 71 00:03:48,429 --> 00:03:50,990 Speaker 1: he was trying to adapt and they so they started 72 00:03:50,990 --> 00:03:53,509 Speaker 1: calling names, but for me as a parent, we didn't 73 00:03:53,509 --> 00:03:55,389 Speaker 1: know how to deal with it because in a boys school, 74 00:03:55,429 --> 00:03:57,869 Speaker 1: they would say, oh, you just have to deal with 75 00:03:57,869 --> 00:03:58,669 Speaker 1: it like a boy. 76 00:03:59,175 --> 00:04:01,966 Speaker 1: boys will be boys, you know. A bit of this 77 00:04:01,966 --> 00:04:05,386 Speaker 1: rough and tumbling business is OK. But some of the 78 00:04:05,386 --> 00:04:09,136 Speaker 1: more maybe effeminate boys were picked on majorly, you know, 79 00:04:09,235 --> 00:04:11,356 Speaker 1: so and that was tough, I think. So it is 80 00:04:11,356 --> 00:04:13,835 Speaker 1: a tough thing to sort of figure out. And that's 81 00:04:13,835 --> 00:04:15,516 Speaker 1: why today we have some guests with us who can 82 00:04:15,516 --> 00:04:18,966 Speaker 1: help us better understand the situation with us in studio, 83 00:04:19,315 --> 00:04:20,316 Speaker 1: assistant professor, Dr. 84 00:04:20,610 --> 00:04:24,670 Speaker 1: Chung Huishan, she's an assistant professor at NIE Psychology and 85 00:04:24,670 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 1: Child and Human Development, and she's also done some research 86 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:31,561 Speaker 1: in this topic. Hi everyone. Also MOE master's school counselor 87 00:04:31,561 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: Sean Eg, and Cindy Chuu, who is a social work 88 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:39,161 Speaker 1: associate and beyond the label ambassador. Hello, Cindy was also 89 00:04:39,161 --> 00:04:41,790 Speaker 1: bullied in school, you told us, right? OK, so thanks 90 00:04:41,790 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: for coming in. 91 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:46,750 Speaker 1: So let's start with that big definition of what is bullying, 92 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,350 Speaker 1: and has it changed over the years. Bullying is a 93 00:04:49,350 --> 00:04:52,109 Speaker 1: very specific term in research as well as in practice. 94 00:04:52,190 --> 00:04:54,390 Speaker 1: So there are just a couple of components. So the 95 00:04:54,390 --> 00:04:55,570 Speaker 1: first thing is, of course it has to be an 96 00:04:55,570 --> 00:04:59,190 Speaker 1: aggressive act with the intention to harm that person. So 97 00:04:59,190 --> 00:05:01,549 Speaker 1: it's not just aggression alone but intention to harm. 98 00:05:02,029 --> 00:05:05,269 Speaker 1: There also has to be a clear power difference between 99 00:05:05,269 --> 00:05:08,190 Speaker 1: the bully and the victim and the act has got 100 00:05:08,190 --> 00:05:12,109 Speaker 1: to be repetitive. So it happens over and over, yes. 101 00:05:12,630 --> 00:05:15,669 Speaker 1: We're talking about power difference, it can be in size, 102 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,630 Speaker 1: it can be in academic achievements. So you could have 103 00:05:19,630 --> 00:05:22,350 Speaker 1: 28 year olds, but one could be just the more 104 00:05:22,350 --> 00:05:24,429 Speaker 1: dominant of the other. You can put it that way, 105 00:05:24,510 --> 00:05:28,190 Speaker 1: some characteristics that are clearly showing that one is more 106 00:05:28,190 --> 00:05:30,790 Speaker 1: powerful than the other. Yeah, we ask Cindy, so. 107 00:05:30,921 --> 00:05:33,272 Speaker 1: If you recall, how old were you when you were 108 00:05:33,272 --> 00:05:36,601 Speaker 1: bullied in school? Do you recall? My earliest memory was 109 00:05:36,601 --> 00:05:38,881 Speaker 1: when I was 7 years old, so that was when 110 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: I was in primary 1. Yeah, actually it started from 111 00:05:42,201 --> 00:05:44,761 Speaker 1: the teacher in a way back then I think it 112 00:05:44,761 --> 00:05:48,481 Speaker 1: was more common for teachers to be more physical towards students. 113 00:05:48,721 --> 00:05:52,082 Speaker 1: I recalled my teacher was quite impatient when we asked 114 00:05:52,082 --> 00:05:55,282 Speaker 1: her like math questions, so she would actually like pull 115 00:05:55,282 --> 00:05:58,601 Speaker 1: our hair, then pinch us, all that. It was quite 116 00:05:58,601 --> 00:05:59,681 Speaker 1: common in class. 117 00:05:59,824 --> 00:06:02,734 Speaker 1: But she didn't just pick on, she didn't just pick 118 00:06:02,734 --> 00:06:06,772 Speaker 1: on me. Yeah, it's something that she did towards everyone. 119 00:06:06,894 --> 00:06:10,373 Speaker 1: So I remember that happened and then subsequently when I 120 00:06:10,373 --> 00:06:12,532 Speaker 1: went on to like primary 3, there was a different 121 00:06:12,533 --> 00:06:15,174 Speaker 1: teacher who did different things and then the other students 122 00:06:15,174 --> 00:06:17,453 Speaker 1: joined in as well. So in primary it was the 123 00:06:17,454 --> 00:06:18,454 Speaker 1: teacher who was still having some of it's not in 124 00:06:18,454 --> 00:06:25,652 Speaker 1: primary 3, it was more of teasing, so maybe calling 125 00:06:25,653 --> 00:06:28,614 Speaker 1: me out in class, talking about my drawing. 126 00:06:28,755 --> 00:06:31,985 Speaker 1: It was so weird in front of everyone. And this 127 00:06:31,985 --> 00:06:34,226 Speaker 1: was the teacher. You were saying that it sort of 128 00:06:34,226 --> 00:06:37,226 Speaker 1: spilled over into the kids as well, and eventually you 129 00:06:37,226 --> 00:06:40,305 Speaker 1: were talking about being isolated, right? So you didn't have 130 00:06:40,305 --> 00:06:43,735 Speaker 1: friends and you had to end up eating alone at recess, etc. 131 00:06:44,466 --> 00:06:47,105 Speaker 1: So that happened I guess because teachers are the role 132 00:06:47,105 --> 00:06:50,864 Speaker 1: models for students. So when students observe that their teachers 133 00:06:50,865 --> 00:06:53,626 Speaker 1: are doing that, are singling a student out in front 134 00:06:53,626 --> 00:06:56,575 Speaker 1: of everyone, then they kind of just stay away from 135 00:06:56,575 --> 00:06:57,466 Speaker 1: that student as well. 136 00:06:57,687 --> 00:06:59,717 Speaker 1: Has to be me, and maybe you want to jump in. 137 00:07:00,037 --> 00:07:02,916 Speaker 1: We often think it's a fellow students, but for a 138 00:07:02,916 --> 00:07:05,757 Speaker 1: teacher to be the culprit, first of all, I'm sorry 139 00:07:05,757 --> 00:07:08,108 Speaker 1: to hear about the experiences that you have gone through 140 00:07:08,618 --> 00:07:11,368 Speaker 1: since the end. That's really very atypical, but also at 141 00:07:11,368 --> 00:07:14,558 Speaker 1: the same time for us to emphasize that there will 142 00:07:14,558 --> 00:07:18,278 Speaker 1: be avenues for our students to actually raise this up 143 00:07:18,678 --> 00:07:22,278 Speaker 1: to either the senior management within the school to kind 144 00:07:22,278 --> 00:07:25,078 Speaker 1: of discuss and report some of these issues. Yeah, but 145 00:07:25,078 --> 00:07:26,477 Speaker 1: this was some time ago, right? 146 00:07:26,820 --> 00:07:29,510 Speaker 1: I'm sure it's not common, teachers, uh, I don't think 147 00:07:29,510 --> 00:07:34,109 Speaker 1: it's that was about 20 years ago. I'm sure kids 148 00:07:34,109 --> 00:07:38,179 Speaker 1: don't see them as bullies, right? Not in recent years 149 00:07:38,179 --> 00:07:42,790 Speaker 1: with more child-centric approach, uh, in recent years, I think 150 00:07:42,790 --> 00:07:45,630 Speaker 1: teachers are very well trained, in fact, playing the supportive 151 00:07:45,630 --> 00:07:46,970 Speaker 1: role or looking up. 152 00:07:47,165 --> 00:07:50,415 Speaker 1: Signs of children who may be victims of bullying. And 153 00:07:50,415 --> 00:07:53,075 Speaker 1: I guess it's also because of experiences like Cindy's where 154 00:07:53,075 --> 00:07:56,395 Speaker 1: the teacher may inadvertently be doing it, not realizing that 155 00:07:56,395 --> 00:07:58,795 Speaker 1: she's encouraging that kind of behavior from the rest in 156 00:07:58,795 --> 00:08:00,915 Speaker 1: the class, right? So I think that's changed a lot 157 00:08:00,915 --> 00:08:04,156 Speaker 1: in the years that have passed. Yeah, for sure, it 158 00:08:04,156 --> 00:08:07,485 Speaker 1: would also mean that now I think they would be 159 00:08:07,532 --> 00:08:10,471 Speaker 1: Much more involved, right? I mean, the kid complains that 160 00:08:10,471 --> 00:08:13,441 Speaker 1: my teacher is pinching me. But coming back to this 161 00:08:13,441 --> 00:08:18,391 Speaker 1: idea of aggressiveness and intention to harm, before the recording, 162 00:08:18,402 --> 00:08:21,052 Speaker 1: we were talking to the team and asking, what do 163 00:08:21,052 --> 00:08:23,721 Speaker 1: you guys consider bullying, right? So some people say, oh, 164 00:08:23,761 --> 00:08:26,361 Speaker 1: this person called me names, you know, say I was 165 00:08:26,361 --> 00:08:27,761 Speaker 1: fat lah, I was ugly. 166 00:08:28,290 --> 00:08:31,959 Speaker 1: I feel like that's hustle and bustle of school life. 167 00:08:32,820 --> 00:08:34,770 Speaker 1: I know, am I being very old fashioned and thinking 168 00:08:34,770 --> 00:08:37,250 Speaker 1: that way? OK, so again it goes back to the 169 00:08:37,250 --> 00:08:41,010 Speaker 1: power difference, right? So if let's say someone calls you names, right, 170 00:08:41,090 --> 00:08:43,609 Speaker 1: or comments on your body shape and all that, if 171 00:08:43,609 --> 00:08:46,209 Speaker 1: there is no power difference, you feel very empowered to 172 00:08:46,210 --> 00:08:49,010 Speaker 1: shoot back at the person, right? But for a bully 173 00:08:49,010 --> 00:08:52,049 Speaker 1: victim relationship, it's very different because you feel that you 174 00:08:52,049 --> 00:08:54,330 Speaker 1: are just powerless, you don't know how to fight back, 175 00:08:54,409 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: you can't fight back. 176 00:08:55,682 --> 00:08:57,352 Speaker 1: There's just no way that you can stand up for yourself. 177 00:08:57,432 --> 00:08:59,432 Speaker 1: So that is a key difference. OK. Is it down 178 00:08:59,432 --> 00:09:03,463 Speaker 1: to character? Like some kids are feisty. Well, it could 179 00:09:03,463 --> 00:09:09,543 Speaker 1: be one experiencing the bullying behaviors may respond differently for another. 180 00:09:10,393 --> 00:09:12,551 Speaker 1: One of the things that I connect with Hoishan is 181 00:09:12,552 --> 00:09:16,672 Speaker 1: the repetitive kind of behaviors that happened over time that 182 00:09:16,672 --> 00:09:20,102 Speaker 1: actually makes it a bullying act or behavior. In that sense, 183 00:09:20,242 --> 00:09:22,033 Speaker 1: if I have this mental game, I come to you 184 00:09:22,033 --> 00:09:22,862 Speaker 1: and every day I say. 185 00:09:23,335 --> 00:09:25,736 Speaker 1: Really ugly and I just do it, you know, 5 186 00:09:25,736 --> 00:09:28,276 Speaker 1: times a week, then that also could be considered bullying, right? 187 00:09:28,416 --> 00:09:31,645 Speaker 1: Of course, if the person has no power to fight 188 00:09:31,645 --> 00:09:35,616 Speaker 1: back or to you, so if that person could say 189 00:09:35,616 --> 00:09:39,905 Speaker 1: so are you, then they wouldn't be bullying, right? pure aggression. 190 00:09:40,096 --> 00:09:43,056 Speaker 1: Obviously the videos that we see clear cut case, right? 191 00:09:43,166 --> 00:09:47,176 Speaker 1: There's aggression, somebody is really picking on somebody else and 192 00:09:47,176 --> 00:09:49,405 Speaker 1: they can't fight back. So these are the parameters. OK, 193 00:09:49,495 --> 00:09:50,655 Speaker 1: tell us how serious this is. 194 00:09:51,099 --> 00:09:54,210 Speaker 1: According to MOE figures, it's 2 incidents out of every 195 00:09:54,210 --> 00:09:59,030 Speaker 1: 1000 primary students, 5 incidents out of every 1000 secondary students. 196 00:09:59,330 --> 00:10:04,569 Speaker 1: It sounds very low, but every, but every kid we 197 00:10:04,570 --> 00:10:07,289 Speaker 1: speak to says at some point, yes, you know there 198 00:10:07,289 --> 00:10:07,890 Speaker 1: was some bullying. 199 00:10:08,005 --> 00:10:11,094 Speaker 1: Our data that we have does show that uh when 200 00:10:11,094 --> 00:10:14,255 Speaker 1: it comes to bullying figures, it has remained kind of 201 00:10:14,255 --> 00:10:17,015 Speaker 1: consistent over the last 5 years at least, so these 202 00:10:17,015 --> 00:10:20,494 Speaker 1: are reported incidents and one of the things that we 203 00:10:20,494 --> 00:10:23,534 Speaker 1: note about data, and this is just one form of 204 00:10:23,534 --> 00:10:24,734 Speaker 1: data avenue. 205 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: There might be other students like you have mentioned before 206 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,089 Speaker 1: that may not be reporting or they may have resolved 207 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 1: the situations on their own, either with the help of 208 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,719 Speaker 1: parents or their peers. OK, so let me ask you 209 00:10:36,719 --> 00:10:38,789 Speaker 1: point blank. Is it much worse than the numbers say? 210 00:10:38,929 --> 00:10:40,590 Speaker 1: At this point in time, that's the numbers that we 211 00:10:40,590 --> 00:10:43,919 Speaker 1: have and definitely in terms of practice, Steve, if I 212 00:10:43,919 --> 00:10:46,799 Speaker 1: could kind of respond to you from the perspective of 213 00:10:46,799 --> 00:10:49,199 Speaker 1: a school counselor, I think in terms of the number 214 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,789 Speaker 1: of students that we have engaged and supported over the years, 215 00:10:53,119 --> 00:10:54,479 Speaker 1: it has not increased. 216 00:10:55,090 --> 00:10:58,729 Speaker 1: One of the possible reasons why I think we are 217 00:10:58,729 --> 00:11:01,209 Speaker 1: having such a big conversation about this, we have noted 218 00:11:01,210 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 1: at least over the last 10 years, uh, with social media, 219 00:11:04,250 --> 00:11:09,489 Speaker 1: with the introduction of the smartphones, there are definitely a 220 00:11:09,489 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: lot more cases that are being publicized, meaning they're recording themselves. 221 00:11:13,390 --> 00:11:16,209 Speaker 1: They're recording themselves and they are being publicized and put 222 00:11:16,210 --> 00:11:17,439 Speaker 1: up the public. 223 00:11:18,479 --> 00:11:21,039 Speaker 1: That's a question I always wonder, you know, if you're 224 00:11:21,039 --> 00:11:23,909 Speaker 1: pummeling some kid, why are you recording it? It's like, 225 00:11:23,919 --> 00:11:27,830 Speaker 1: isn't that evidence yourself to say, hey, look what I did, man, 226 00:11:28,239 --> 00:11:31,598 Speaker 1: the bully, right? It might be a power thing. Do 227 00:11:31,599 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: you see that it's the phone that's making the big 228 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:38,359 Speaker 1: difference in us seeing more things online? The phone is 229 00:11:38,359 --> 00:11:40,479 Speaker 1: definitely an easy way to document some of. 230 00:11:40,559 --> 00:11:42,950 Speaker 1: these things, right? Before that, if you were bullied or 231 00:11:42,950 --> 00:11:45,510 Speaker 1: people call you names and they just say something after 232 00:11:45,510 --> 00:11:47,449 Speaker 1: something right in your face and then they walk off 233 00:11:47,450 --> 00:11:50,348 Speaker 1: and it's gone. There's no evidence, it's just your words 234 00:11:50,349 --> 00:11:53,299 Speaker 1: against mine, but now it's all well documented in an 235 00:11:53,299 --> 00:11:56,510 Speaker 1: easy way that can be well disseminated through many avenues 236 00:11:56,510 --> 00:11:59,210 Speaker 1: and I think that makes a key difference. Now, I think, 237 00:11:59,549 --> 00:12:01,589 Speaker 1: having said that, when we look at the numbers, it's 238 00:12:01,590 --> 00:12:06,309 Speaker 1: not inching up significantly. Every case that we engage and 239 00:12:06,309 --> 00:12:07,710 Speaker 1: we see is important. 240 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,799 Speaker 1: Which means to say every case that's been highlighted is 241 00:12:10,799 --> 00:12:14,199 Speaker 1: really for schools to pay attention to them and do 242 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,159 Speaker 1: the disciplinary actions or the investigation and for us to 243 00:12:18,159 --> 00:12:22,119 Speaker 1: actually take both corrective as well as restorative approach in 244 00:12:22,119 --> 00:12:24,359 Speaker 1: managing the issue. Then I have to ask you what 245 00:12:24,359 --> 00:12:28,079 Speaker 1: can be done because sometimes the situation is a bit gray. 246 00:12:28,159 --> 00:12:30,709 Speaker 1: So he said, she said, and yes, it may have happened, 247 00:12:30,770 --> 00:12:32,349 Speaker 1: but what do you do? You go talk to the kid, 248 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,239 Speaker 1: don't do it again. I mean, it depends on the case, 249 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,409 Speaker 1: I suppose it does as a general. 250 00:12:37,465 --> 00:12:40,414 Speaker 1: Approach whenever a case is being surfaced, our discipline masters 251 00:12:40,414 --> 00:12:43,895 Speaker 1: typically gets involved. They will interview the students who were 252 00:12:43,895 --> 00:12:46,984 Speaker 1: involved and really get the facts of what actually happened. 253 00:12:47,534 --> 00:12:51,375 Speaker 1: From a restorative kind of perspective, we don't just punish 254 00:12:51,375 --> 00:12:55,575 Speaker 1: the students. Part of disciplining is also the restorative aspect. 255 00:12:55,784 --> 00:13:00,574 Speaker 1: When you mean restorative, you mean like what the, that's right, 256 00:13:00,715 --> 00:13:01,614 Speaker 1: engaging with them. 257 00:13:01,979 --> 00:13:05,039 Speaker 1: And I think one of the key areas that we 258 00:13:05,039 --> 00:13:06,919 Speaker 1: aim to do for the students who are engaging in 259 00:13:06,919 --> 00:13:10,239 Speaker 1: bullying behaviors is to actually find out some of the 260 00:13:10,599 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: underlying concerns and issues that might be driving or maintaining 261 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,750 Speaker 1: those bullying behaviors. I will follow up with one question 262 00:13:17,750 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: before we go to Cindy, right? You've been in the 263 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,679 Speaker 1: school system handling kids as a counselor for nearly 20 264 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:27,510 Speaker 1: years now. Is there something that's changed about the general 265 00:13:27,510 --> 00:13:29,890 Speaker 1: trend of the cases you see as more 266 00:13:29,940 --> 00:13:34,890 Speaker 1: Aggressive? Is it more physical? Is it more psychological bullying? 267 00:13:34,929 --> 00:13:37,450 Speaker 1: I suppose over the close to 20 years that I've 268 00:13:37,450 --> 00:13:40,409 Speaker 1: been in service, I do see again coming back to 269 00:13:40,409 --> 00:13:45,059 Speaker 1: the earlier conversation about smartphones, there seems to be some 270 00:13:45,059 --> 00:13:47,690 Speaker 1: information from a practice level to say that there are 271 00:13:47,690 --> 00:13:52,239 Speaker 1: more incidences of cyberbullying. Yeah, that's really about the access 272 00:13:52,239 --> 00:13:55,700 Speaker 1: and availability of the devices that the students have. So 273 00:13:55,700 --> 00:13:57,809 Speaker 1: there are more platforms ironically for bullying. 274 00:13:58,049 --> 00:13:59,799 Speaker 1: But Cindy, we want to hear a bit more about 275 00:13:59,799 --> 00:14:02,580 Speaker 1: your story because we hear that it took an interesting twist, 276 00:14:02,710 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: you were being bullied. 277 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:09,169 Speaker 1: Then later you went on to bully. Yeah, unfortunately, and 278 00:14:09,169 --> 00:14:12,780 Speaker 1: I think my primary school experiences being the one that 279 00:14:12,780 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 1: got bullied. So then in secondary school, I kind of 280 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,630 Speaker 1: have like a change of image where I took on 281 00:14:18,630 --> 00:14:23,039 Speaker 1: a more like rebellious appearance and then I also felt 282 00:14:23,039 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: more confident because of that and I joined in other 283 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:28,229 Speaker 1: students in like. 284 00:14:28,806 --> 00:14:31,846 Speaker 1: other students. Yeah, so there was the part of like 285 00:14:31,846 --> 00:14:35,565 Speaker 1: teasing others and I remembered in primary school as well 286 00:14:35,565 --> 00:14:37,945 Speaker 1: when I was being bullied in school, so I would 287 00:14:37,945 --> 00:14:41,366 Speaker 1: actually go home and bully my sisters because I live 288 00:14:41,366 --> 00:14:45,005 Speaker 1: with three other sisters. They were younger than you. Um 289 00:14:45,005 --> 00:14:47,145 Speaker 1: there was one that was older and then there's 2 290 00:14:47,145 --> 00:14:49,685 Speaker 1: that are younger than me. You had control at home 291 00:14:49,685 --> 00:14:52,125 Speaker 1: that you didn't have in school. So on hindsight when 292 00:14:52,125 --> 00:14:52,776 Speaker 1: I grew a bit 293 00:14:52,822 --> 00:14:55,161 Speaker 1: older and I look back on my actions and I 294 00:14:55,161 --> 00:14:57,952 Speaker 1: realized that oh, it was because it was fulfilling a 295 00:14:57,952 --> 00:15:00,492 Speaker 1: certain need that I lacked, which is the sense of 296 00:15:00,492 --> 00:15:03,012 Speaker 1: control and power. So in school when I was being 297 00:15:03,012 --> 00:15:05,802 Speaker 1: bullied a lot, I felt like I didn't have that. 298 00:15:06,252 --> 00:15:08,052 Speaker 1: So I went home and then I did that to 299 00:15:08,052 --> 00:15:11,081 Speaker 1: my sister so that I feel more empowered in a sense. 300 00:15:11,291 --> 00:15:14,932 Speaker 1: To be honest, bullying behavior totally makes sense from an 301 00:15:14,932 --> 00:15:17,101 Speaker 1: evolutionary perspective because if 302 00:15:17,148 --> 00:15:20,518 Speaker 1: Think about it, it's really trying to get as much 303 00:15:20,518 --> 00:15:22,658 Speaker 1: resources as you can, right? And how do you go 304 00:15:22,658 --> 00:15:26,268 Speaker 1: about doing this is to elevate your own social status, 305 00:15:26,418 --> 00:15:28,857 Speaker 1: your own power, and then just get as much as 306 00:15:28,857 --> 00:15:32,697 Speaker 1: you can. It makes complete sense for bullying behavior to happen, right? 307 00:15:33,018 --> 00:15:35,338 Speaker 1: Of course, at the same time it's not socially sanctioned 308 00:15:35,338 --> 00:15:37,297 Speaker 1: and you know, we don't, and of course if you 309 00:15:37,297 --> 00:15:40,978 Speaker 1: show yourself to be a socially unlikable person, you can 310 00:15:40,978 --> 00:15:41,427 Speaker 1: also 311 00:15:41,473 --> 00:15:43,984 Speaker 1: Backfire, right, in terms of your your own, you know, 312 00:15:44,064 --> 00:15:48,653 Speaker 1: survival and adaptiveness. Right. So you can understand the motivations, 313 00:15:49,273 --> 00:15:52,104 Speaker 1: but it does cross the line, right? When the bullied 314 00:15:52,104 --> 00:15:57,294 Speaker 1: the victims obviously develop mental health issues, when they start 315 00:15:57,783 --> 00:16:01,684 Speaker 1: avoiding school and of course when they get hurt like this. 316 00:16:02,184 --> 00:16:05,664 Speaker 1: So you were talking about cyber bullying versus physical bullying, right? 317 00:16:06,309 --> 00:16:09,669 Speaker 1: How bad is cyberbullying in Singapore? I'm really referring to 318 00:16:09,669 --> 00:16:12,349 Speaker 1: the study that uh was a collaboration between the Singapore 319 00:16:12,349 --> 00:16:15,669 Speaker 1: Children's Society and the Institute of Mental Health. uh they 320 00:16:15,669 --> 00:16:18,469 Speaker 1: collected some data in 2014 and this paper was ultimately 321 00:16:18,469 --> 00:16:21,909 Speaker 1: published in 2020. So that paper really looked at the 322 00:16:21,909 --> 00:16:26,590 Speaker 1: comparison between traditional bullying, which means like physical relational and 323 00:16:26,590 --> 00:16:28,710 Speaker 1: all of those things, versus cyberbullying. 324 00:16:28,986 --> 00:16:31,695 Speaker 1: The figure that they put out for traditional bullying is 325 00:16:31,695 --> 00:16:34,476 Speaker 1: about 1 25%. So one quarter of the people, over 326 00:16:34,476 --> 00:16:38,245 Speaker 1: 3300 secondary school students that they survey between 14 and 327 00:16:38,245 --> 00:16:41,056 Speaker 1: 17 years old, one quarter of those will be bullied, 328 00:16:41,366 --> 00:16:44,205 Speaker 1: of which I think about 12% cyberbullied. So you can 329 00:16:44,205 --> 00:16:46,765 Speaker 1: get a rough sense of those figures. We're not very 330 00:16:46,765 --> 00:16:51,406 Speaker 1: far off from, you know, international figures or averages internationally. 331 00:16:51,512 --> 00:16:54,220 Speaker 1: It's about that. Yeah, so we are not peculiar in 332 00:16:54,221 --> 00:16:57,851 Speaker 1: any way. Would the underlying causes of bullying be any different? 333 00:16:58,101 --> 00:17:01,581 Speaker 1: Have they evolved over time? Why do people bully in 334 00:17:01,581 --> 00:17:04,630 Speaker 1: the first place? From a counseling perspective, we often look 335 00:17:04,631 --> 00:17:07,381 Speaker 1: at both the presenting issue, which is what we're talking 336 00:17:07,381 --> 00:17:10,862 Speaker 1: about now bullying, and many a times, more importantly, the 337 00:17:10,862 --> 00:17:14,092 Speaker 1: underlying issues. What is perpetuating the behavior. 338 00:17:14,369 --> 00:17:17,339 Speaker 1: And we do know that bullying on its own is complex. 339 00:17:17,510 --> 00:17:20,149 Speaker 1: For every single student that we see and support for 340 00:17:20,150 --> 00:17:23,910 Speaker 1: bullying incidences, the reasons can be multiple. Give us some examples. 341 00:17:24,109 --> 00:17:25,829 Speaker 1: One of the things that we typically see is of 342 00:17:25,829 --> 00:17:28,150 Speaker 1: course a learned or socialized behavior. 343 00:17:28,410 --> 00:17:30,920 Speaker 1: I think Cindy has helped us understood a little bit 344 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:36,790 Speaker 1: about how her past experiences impact her choices and behaviors 345 00:17:36,790 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: and really thanking her for being so vulnerable to share 346 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:41,910 Speaker 1: her story. In some of the cases we do see 347 00:17:41,910 --> 00:17:45,109 Speaker 1: and if if I could maybe raise an example. 348 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,250 Speaker 1: Obviously when I was in the primary school, I was 349 00:17:47,250 --> 00:17:51,089 Speaker 1: supporting this P6 student, a male student. He comes to school. 350 00:17:51,130 --> 00:17:55,530 Speaker 1: There were many times that he goes into emotion dysregulation episodes. 351 00:17:55,890 --> 00:17:59,410 Speaker 1: He will lose his temper very easily. He will hit 352 00:17:59,410 --> 00:18:03,369 Speaker 1: out at the peers, uh, school vulgarities even. And when 353 00:18:03,369 --> 00:18:07,208 Speaker 1: we engaged him, and when we engaged Daddy, uh, invited 354 00:18:07,209 --> 00:18:09,409 Speaker 1: Daddy to come down to the school, the father. 355 00:18:09,750 --> 00:18:13,729 Speaker 1: And we realized that the father was confrontational towards us 356 00:18:14,380 --> 00:18:17,219 Speaker 1: and we kind of understood a little bit about what 357 00:18:17,219 --> 00:18:20,180 Speaker 1: might be the causes. I'm gonna put this up front 358 00:18:20,180 --> 00:18:23,389 Speaker 1: to say that not all bullying cases fit this same mold, 359 00:18:24,060 --> 00:18:25,979 Speaker 1: but there will be some examples. 360 00:18:26,104 --> 00:18:29,063 Speaker 1: So the environment you grew up in, the people around you, 361 00:18:29,675 --> 00:18:33,435 Speaker 1: those circumstances, of course, yeah, because some of the videos 362 00:18:33,435 --> 00:18:37,984 Speaker 1: that we see are very, very violent. They lead to 363 00:18:38,545 --> 00:18:42,625 Speaker 1: kids bleeding and maybe end up with injuries and all that. 364 00:18:42,994 --> 00:18:46,935 Speaker 1: Is that something that's changed over the years? I'm not 365 00:18:46,935 --> 00:18:50,824 Speaker 1: sure whether it has changed, but one of the dynamics 366 00:18:50,824 --> 00:18:53,313 Speaker 1: and He will probably be able to jump in here. 367 00:18:53,780 --> 00:18:57,099 Speaker 1: Is the effects of peer pressure. And if you look 368 00:18:57,099 --> 00:18:59,819 Speaker 1: at some of the videos, there is the student who 369 00:18:59,819 --> 00:19:02,500 Speaker 1: is bullying, there's a student who's being bullied and they 370 00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:07,659 Speaker 1: are bystanders and peers. It's like a group effort, right, right. 371 00:19:07,939 --> 00:19:08,899 Speaker 1: So the thing is. 372 00:19:09,484 --> 00:19:12,794 Speaker 1: Pure dynamics is so prominent in the secondary school years. 373 00:19:12,844 --> 00:19:14,844 Speaker 1: I think the recent videos that we saw, these are 374 00:19:14,844 --> 00:19:18,594 Speaker 1: all teenagers. In MOE what we have tried to do, 375 00:19:18,885 --> 00:19:21,454 Speaker 1: especially in the last couple of years, at the current time, 376 00:19:21,545 --> 00:19:24,594 Speaker 1: we have peer supporters, they are trained within each school. 377 00:19:24,844 --> 00:19:27,645 Speaker 1: So these peer supporters, in fact, uh sometimes the eyes 378 00:19:27,645 --> 00:19:30,405 Speaker 1: and ears of the teachers and they look out for 379 00:19:30,405 --> 00:19:33,484 Speaker 1: signs of distress in their peers. If need be, report 380 00:19:33,484 --> 00:19:35,035 Speaker 1: to the teachers about certain 381 00:19:35,449 --> 00:19:39,020 Speaker 1: Bullying incidences if need be, so that both the student 382 00:19:39,020 --> 00:19:41,900 Speaker 1: who bullies and the student who's being bullied, both of 383 00:19:41,900 --> 00:19:44,619 Speaker 1: them actually receive support at the same time. Yeah, but 384 00:19:44,619 --> 00:19:48,290 Speaker 1: this is, you know, they don't want to tell the teacher. 385 00:19:48,660 --> 00:19:55,689 Speaker 1: You want to tell the teacher then then they'll be like, 386 00:19:55,699 --> 00:19:56,540 Speaker 1: you will be even more bullied, I think at that 387 00:19:56,540 --> 00:19:59,290 Speaker 1: point I wouldn't actually tell the teachers about it. 388 00:19:59,655 --> 00:20:02,405 Speaker 1: Yeah, first of all, I don't think that in my experience, 389 00:20:02,574 --> 00:20:05,614 Speaker 1: they were like trusted adults. Yeah, but even if they were, 390 00:20:05,734 --> 00:20:08,375 Speaker 1: I think I would face a lot of hesitation because 391 00:20:08,694 --> 00:20:11,375 Speaker 1: I didn't want to appear as weak to other students. 392 00:20:11,535 --> 00:20:14,285 Speaker 1: So see, this is the complicated dynamics when it comes 393 00:20:14,285 --> 00:20:16,875 Speaker 1: to bullying, right, which probably explains why a lot of 394 00:20:16,875 --> 00:20:19,535 Speaker 1: it is unreported. And it's also not just one or 395 00:20:19,535 --> 00:20:21,844 Speaker 1: two people. I mean, so I imagine something's happening in school, 396 00:20:21,895 --> 00:20:23,614 Speaker 1: the other students stand around and watch. 397 00:20:24,020 --> 00:20:26,489 Speaker 1: What do they do? Do they cheer the kid who's 398 00:20:26,489 --> 00:20:29,489 Speaker 1: punching the other kid? Does anyone step in? or they 399 00:20:29,489 --> 00:20:32,449 Speaker 1: film it, yeah, and then it in, right? Yeah, they 400 00:20:32,449 --> 00:20:34,569 Speaker 1: become emboldened, right? So it's almost like a vicious cycle. 401 00:20:34,650 --> 00:20:37,050 Speaker 1: I mean, do we even teach our students that this 402 00:20:37,050 --> 00:20:39,339 Speaker 1: behavior is wrong, but should they be stepping in to 403 00:20:39,339 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 1: try and stop the fight to try and get involved, 404 00:20:41,290 --> 00:20:44,810 Speaker 1: because very often we have this bystander behavior. Who will 405 00:20:44,810 --> 00:20:47,859 Speaker 1: stop the fight, Steve? Everybody will just run away. But why? 406 00:20:48,010 --> 00:20:49,329 Speaker 1: I mean, so we should have that. 407 00:20:49,625 --> 00:20:52,264 Speaker 1: said that I can make a difference. That's what we 408 00:20:52,265 --> 00:20:54,385 Speaker 1: are trying to do it in schools, in a lot of, 409 00:20:54,425 --> 00:20:56,704 Speaker 1: you know, bullying interventions. That's what we are trying to 410 00:20:56,704 --> 00:21:00,185 Speaker 1: empower children to do, right? The bystander effect, I think 411 00:21:00,185 --> 00:21:03,214 Speaker 1: in recent years, even in research, we're really zooming into 412 00:21:03,385 --> 00:21:05,724 Speaker 1: you know how we can harness that kind of resources, 413 00:21:06,064 --> 00:21:08,814 Speaker 1: because it's just only so much that adults can do, right? 414 00:21:08,824 --> 00:21:11,185 Speaker 1: Cindy pointed out how many of those who are bullied 415 00:21:11,185 --> 00:21:13,823 Speaker 1: will actually approach a teacher even if the teacher is 416 00:21:13,824 --> 00:21:14,774 Speaker 1: a trusted adult. 417 00:21:15,150 --> 00:21:18,010 Speaker 1: And we're not even talking about parents yet. OK, let's 418 00:21:18,010 --> 00:21:21,479 Speaker 1: get into how bullying is handled, right? So when there's 419 00:21:21,479 --> 00:21:24,829 Speaker 1: a case comes to you, obviously you have different levels, right? 420 00:21:24,969 --> 00:21:27,770 Speaker 1: So you try to deal with it, but when does 421 00:21:27,770 --> 00:21:30,609 Speaker 1: it become the police are called in? Definitely when the 422 00:21:30,609 --> 00:21:35,530 Speaker 1: law is being broken, assault, just like how we have 423 00:21:35,530 --> 00:21:38,770 Speaker 1: seen in the recent cases in some of the schools, 424 00:21:38,849 --> 00:21:42,290 Speaker 1: the police are involved, the school's responsibility at that moment 425 00:21:42,290 --> 00:21:42,969 Speaker 1: is really to 426 00:21:43,020 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 1: work together with the police to ensure the information, right. 427 00:21:47,569 --> 00:21:50,130 Speaker 1: That's a clear case. When you break the law, the 428 00:21:50,130 --> 00:21:52,959 Speaker 1: police get involved. But the guy who goes around calling 429 00:21:52,959 --> 00:21:56,079 Speaker 1: you every day, you're ugly and stupid. I mean, you know, 430 00:21:56,170 --> 00:21:59,250 Speaker 1: we talked a little bit about the disciplinary framework and 431 00:21:59,250 --> 00:22:02,170 Speaker 1: approach that each school has, and there's a process in 432 00:22:02,170 --> 00:22:06,649 Speaker 1: place to ensure that each case that's being reported is investigated. 433 00:22:06,890 --> 00:22:09,569 Speaker 1: When we look at supporting again both the student who's 434 00:22:09,569 --> 00:22:10,849 Speaker 1: being bullied and the student. 435 00:22:11,140 --> 00:22:15,140 Speaker 1: Who's bullying, that's where the restorative support actually comes in. 436 00:22:15,239 --> 00:22:18,540 Speaker 1: What is this restorative treatment from a supportive anger, that's 437 00:22:18,540 --> 00:22:22,459 Speaker 1: where both students may receive counseling support and in the 438 00:22:22,459 --> 00:22:27,089 Speaker 1: counseling dynamics or process, typically we uh invite the student 439 00:22:27,089 --> 00:22:30,180 Speaker 1: to share some of the thoughts that he or she 440 00:22:30,180 --> 00:22:33,500 Speaker 1: might be having whenever those incidences were happening. And we 441 00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:36,900 Speaker 1: kind of explore different kinds of coping strategies with the 442 00:22:36,900 --> 00:22:38,650 Speaker 1: students in hopes that of course 443 00:22:38,699 --> 00:22:40,969 Speaker 1: Because they may learn new skills in order to cope 444 00:22:40,969 --> 00:22:43,209 Speaker 1: with some of these peer challenges. We haven't talked about 445 00:22:43,209 --> 00:22:47,569 Speaker 1: modeling behaviors, right? You have aggressive behaviors or aggressive caregivers 446 00:22:47,569 --> 00:22:49,718 Speaker 1: at home, that's what you learn to be adaptive, right, 447 00:22:49,729 --> 00:22:51,829 Speaker 1: in that kind of environment. So how can you blame 448 00:22:51,829 --> 00:22:55,089 Speaker 1: a kid for them being aggressive in the school context, 449 00:22:55,209 --> 00:22:57,448 Speaker 1: but this is what is shown to be adaptive in 450 00:22:57,449 --> 00:23:00,198 Speaker 1: the home environment, right? They're just doing what they see. 451 00:23:01,069 --> 00:23:05,379 Speaker 1: Should you call the parent in and then counsel the parent? 452 00:23:05,569 --> 00:23:06,319 Speaker 1: Do you think that? 453 00:23:06,530 --> 00:23:09,698 Speaker 1: It's not just a school problem to solve. Yeah, I 454 00:23:09,910 --> 00:23:13,390 Speaker 1: definitely think so because I think that it really depends 455 00:23:13,390 --> 00:23:16,869 Speaker 1: on the home environment as well. Those can contribute to 456 00:23:16,869 --> 00:23:20,670 Speaker 1: the person's behavior in school so I think parents actually 457 00:23:20,670 --> 00:23:22,030 Speaker 1: play a very significant role. 458 00:23:22,484 --> 00:23:26,604 Speaker 1: In shaping the child's behavior or even being their protective 459 00:23:26,604 --> 00:23:29,214 Speaker 1: support system. But here's the challenge, OK, let's take on. 460 00:23:29,244 --> 00:23:31,204 Speaker 1: So what the role of parents in bullying? One, there's 461 00:23:31,204 --> 00:23:34,685 Speaker 1: the parent who is a good role model, not practicing 462 00:23:34,685 --> 00:23:36,395 Speaker 1: it at home, but then there's the other parent who 463 00:23:36,395 --> 00:23:38,645 Speaker 1: is the bully at home too. So how do you 464 00:23:38,645 --> 00:23:41,685 Speaker 1: deal with both cases? I suppose it's very context. One 465 00:23:41,685 --> 00:23:44,603 Speaker 1: of the ways that schools go about doing this is 466 00:23:44,604 --> 00:23:48,354 Speaker 1: really engagement, inviting the parent to come down to the school. 467 00:23:48,829 --> 00:23:52,189 Speaker 1: Sometimes that meeting may consist of your school leader, your 468 00:23:52,189 --> 00:23:55,629 Speaker 1: discipline master, as well as the school counselor to help 469 00:23:55,630 --> 00:23:59,270 Speaker 1: parents understand the impact of the student's behaviors and a 470 00:23:59,270 --> 00:24:03,150 Speaker 1: lot of time is spent on psycho education to ensure 471 00:24:03,150 --> 00:24:06,510 Speaker 1: that they receive the necessary knowledge so that they can 472 00:24:06,510 --> 00:24:09,630 Speaker 1: make changes. So when we engage parents, most of the 473 00:24:09,630 --> 00:24:13,030 Speaker 1: time it's really providing information for them, not so much 474 00:24:13,030 --> 00:24:14,770 Speaker 1: about providing counseling and 475 00:24:15,770 --> 00:24:17,609 Speaker 1: Something that I'm sorry, but it's like just saying he 476 00:24:17,609 --> 00:24:20,239 Speaker 1: shouldn't be doing that and I'm like, yeah, I know 477 00:24:20,239 --> 00:24:24,209 Speaker 1: you know how effective is this? It's it's tough. I 478 00:24:24,209 --> 00:24:26,550 Speaker 1: think it depends on the parent also, right? Parents don't 479 00:24:26,550 --> 00:24:28,329 Speaker 1: show up just because their kids are being called up 480 00:24:28,329 --> 00:24:30,790 Speaker 1: for being bullies and then they say, OK, OK, OK, 481 00:24:31,050 --> 00:24:32,889 Speaker 1: I'll be good now, you know, I'll be teaching him. 482 00:24:33,089 --> 00:24:37,219 Speaker 1: So it's yeah, it's really tough. It's very complex, you know, 483 00:24:37,310 --> 00:24:39,250 Speaker 1: I mean it goes down all the way to a 484 00:24:39,250 --> 00:24:40,849 Speaker 1: family history, you know, attached. 485 00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,430 Speaker 1: history and all of those things, yeah. For us it's 486 00:24:44,430 --> 00:24:47,270 Speaker 1: so easy, right? You see a child or a teenager 487 00:24:47,270 --> 00:24:50,188 Speaker 1: bullying another person and it's easy to point fingers and say, yeah, 488 00:24:50,270 --> 00:24:52,310 Speaker 1: you know you shouldn't do this, right? Why are you 489 00:24:52,310 --> 00:24:55,429 Speaker 1: doing this? We encourage children to have empathy, right? And 490 00:24:55,430 --> 00:24:58,750 Speaker 1: why can't we also have some empathy for the bullies 491 00:24:58,750 --> 00:25:02,430 Speaker 1: and think about what kind of contextual background would have 492 00:25:02,430 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: actually led to that behavior. This is not something we 493 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:06,989 Speaker 1: can resolve in one session. 494 00:25:07,449 --> 00:25:09,649 Speaker 1: My punishment was just just go stand against the wall 495 00:25:09,650 --> 00:25:11,479 Speaker 1: in the corner outside the principal's office and then you 496 00:25:11,479 --> 00:25:13,569 Speaker 1: know Steve was the kind who broke up fights. Yeah, 497 00:25:13,650 --> 00:25:15,489 Speaker 1: I did once and then I got punched. So you 498 00:25:15,489 --> 00:25:19,869 Speaker 1: were not the typical bystander. He is not the typical bystander. 499 00:25:20,020 --> 00:25:22,729 Speaker 1: I would run away from a fight. Why would I 500 00:25:22,729 --> 00:25:25,250 Speaker 1: get involved in a fight and then I'll get punched. Steve, 501 00:25:25,290 --> 00:25:28,089 Speaker 1: the point that you raised is very, very important and 502 00:25:28,089 --> 00:25:31,369 Speaker 1: it's the one area that we are focusing on with 503 00:25:31,369 --> 00:25:33,250 Speaker 1: our students who are bystanders. 504 00:25:33,579 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 1: And letting them know that sometimes there are different ways 505 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,958 Speaker 1: of standing up with your peers. And it doesn't mean 506 00:25:41,959 --> 00:25:44,420 Speaker 1: going to the teachers and ratting up on them, hey, 507 00:25:44,719 --> 00:25:46,959 Speaker 1: this is going on, can you do something about it? 508 00:25:47,329 --> 00:25:50,329 Speaker 1: Within the classroom and as we teach our students how 509 00:25:50,329 --> 00:25:53,688 Speaker 1: to manage some of these very delicate social situations, we 510 00:25:53,689 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 1: do coach them to say that when you observe something happening, 511 00:25:56,770 --> 00:25:58,849 Speaker 1: this is what you can do and sometimes there are 512 00:25:58,849 --> 00:26:02,010 Speaker 1: reporting structures within our schools that we can report and 513 00:26:02,010 --> 00:26:04,329 Speaker 1: at the same time to stay anonymous. It's just like 514 00:26:04,329 --> 00:26:05,819 Speaker 1: pulling up to your friend and saying, hey, hey man, 515 00:26:05,930 --> 00:26:08,079 Speaker 1: come on, this is not worth it, you know, just 516 00:26:08,079 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 1: let it go this time. Little things like that and 517 00:26:09,890 --> 00:26:10,419 Speaker 1: and bystanding. 518 00:26:10,584 --> 00:26:12,813 Speaker 1: In fact, it is very powerful because if one person 519 00:26:12,814 --> 00:26:15,604 Speaker 1: steps forward, then somebody else is more willing to step 520 00:26:15,604 --> 00:26:18,194 Speaker 1: forward and you know there's bravery in numbers and it 521 00:26:18,194 --> 00:26:24,375 Speaker 1: creates the power and the strength in numbers, right? Yeah, absolutely. OK, Cindy, 522 00:26:24,454 --> 00:26:27,494 Speaker 1: what's your wish list to like deal with bullying? Yeah, 523 00:26:27,535 --> 00:26:29,734 Speaker 1: I think I was very heartened to hear him share 524 00:26:29,734 --> 00:26:32,015 Speaker 1: about the reporting structure in school. I think that was 525 00:26:32,015 --> 00:26:33,814 Speaker 1: something that we didn't have back then. 526 00:26:34,300 --> 00:26:37,079 Speaker 1: So I think being able to actually share with like 527 00:26:37,079 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: the teachers or even the school counselors without having their 528 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,239 Speaker 1: identity revealed, I think that's very helpful. Yes, I think 529 00:26:43,239 --> 00:26:45,599 Speaker 1: that is indeed a good thing. Sean, what about you? 530 00:26:45,719 --> 00:26:48,109 Speaker 1: I go back to the previous two teams about our 531 00:26:48,109 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: approach when we manage bullying incidences in the schools. We 532 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:52,719 Speaker 1: take on both. 533 00:26:52,810 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 1: A corrective as well as a restorative stance when we 534 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,959 Speaker 1: support the students. Going back to, you know, harnessing peer support, 535 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:01,839 Speaker 1: I really like that idea, but I think there are 536 00:27:01,839 --> 00:27:04,719 Speaker 1: also some limits to what we can do with peer support. 537 00:27:04,790 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: Don't forget, remember we talked about the definition of bullying, right, 538 00:27:07,530 --> 00:27:09,839 Speaker 1: and how students and children come together in the first 539 00:27:09,839 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: place is when they're similar. 540 00:27:11,770 --> 00:27:14,050 Speaker 1: So those people who were bullied or children who have 541 00:27:14,050 --> 00:27:18,079 Speaker 1: been bullied, very likely they also had friends who are victims. 542 00:27:18,569 --> 00:27:21,609 Speaker 1: So they are already low in social status, they at 543 00:27:21,609 --> 00:27:24,290 Speaker 1: the lower end of the difference. So the power of 544 00:27:24,290 --> 00:27:27,129 Speaker 1: that peer support can be very limited, so more must 545 00:27:27,130 --> 00:27:29,369 Speaker 1: be done to really harness that. 546 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:33,540 Speaker 1: kind of energy beyond the child's social circle. What would 547 00:27:33,540 --> 00:27:36,780 Speaker 1: you tell your kid on how to stand up to bullies? Steve, 548 00:27:37,469 --> 00:27:39,869 Speaker 1: fight back, punch back. Yeah, I don't know. No, I'm 549 00:27:39,869 --> 00:27:44,819 Speaker 1: a nonconfrontational kind of nonviolent. I want to understand more. 550 00:27:44,969 --> 00:27:47,079 Speaker 1: At the very least, if it got really bad, I'll say. 551 00:27:47,689 --> 00:27:50,290 Speaker 1: Let's go talk to the kid together. So I was 552 00:27:50,290 --> 00:27:53,349 Speaker 1: gonna say that when the parent shows up and says, OK, 553 00:27:53,489 --> 00:27:57,770 Speaker 1: who is Daniel here? And then maybe we can talk 554 00:27:57,770 --> 00:28:00,650 Speaker 1: about it. If I were the parent, I would be 555 00:28:00,650 --> 00:28:04,719 Speaker 1: very intentional in cultivating a strong relationship with my child 556 00:28:04,719 --> 00:28:06,930 Speaker 1: in the very early years. Oh, so that they can 557 00:28:06,930 --> 00:28:11,448 Speaker 1: tell you, building that foundation, it's important to really empower 558 00:28:11,449 --> 00:28:12,569 Speaker 1: the child to say that yes, I'm here. 559 00:28:12,714 --> 00:28:15,344 Speaker 1: for you, you can trust me and to give them 560 00:28:15,344 --> 00:28:17,863 Speaker 1: the confidence that you're good enough to also stand up 561 00:28:17,864 --> 00:28:20,824 Speaker 1: for yourself because you are loved. I have a 13 562 00:28:20,824 --> 00:28:24,104 Speaker 1: year old daughter at home. This is not a team 563 00:28:24,104 --> 00:28:25,714 Speaker 1: that we have visited yet. So don't listen to this podcast. 564 00:28:28,824 --> 00:28:30,544 Speaker 1: If she would have come to me, I think some 565 00:28:30,545 --> 00:28:34,284 Speaker 1: of the things that I might consider doing is really 566 00:28:34,285 --> 00:28:37,064 Speaker 1: asking her how she dealt with the situation at that 567 00:28:37,064 --> 00:28:37,744 Speaker 1: point of time. 568 00:28:37,989 --> 00:28:41,369 Speaker 1: And taking more of a coaching kind of stance, maybe 569 00:28:41,369 --> 00:28:44,010 Speaker 1: brainstorming some of the strategies that uh she may be 570 00:28:44,010 --> 00:28:47,569 Speaker 1: using and really inviting her coming back for further conversations 571 00:28:47,569 --> 00:28:50,530 Speaker 1: and updates about what's going on. Yeah, and and really 572 00:28:50,530 --> 00:28:54,689 Speaker 1: building her own strategies and competencies. like a counselor. Cindy, 573 00:28:54,810 --> 00:28:58,099 Speaker 1: as somebody who's been bullied, what advice would you have? 574 00:28:58,290 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: Our thing is to really like 575 00:29:00,239 --> 00:29:04,160 Speaker 1: The person's assertiveness and confidence. Yeah, so they they don't 576 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: look like easy targets of bullying, but I know that 577 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,959 Speaker 1: isn't easy. So some people are a bit more meeker 578 00:29:09,959 --> 00:29:12,500 Speaker 1: than others, right? But learn to stand up for yourself. 579 00:29:13,119 --> 00:29:14,949 Speaker 1: So I think if anyone's listening to this and and 580 00:29:14,949 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: you know, if you are suffering from bullying, I think 581 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,550 Speaker 1: just speak to someone, an adult you trust, it doesn't 582 00:29:19,550 --> 00:29:21,050 Speaker 1: have to be a teacher, it could be your cousin, 583 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: it could be an auntie or a good friend who's 584 00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: just an older adult who can help you out of 585 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:26,130 Speaker 1: the situation because I think 586 00:29:26,469 --> 00:29:30,949 Speaker 1: Uh, reaching out is the first step. Exactly, don't suffer 587 00:29:30,949 --> 00:29:34,109 Speaker 1: in silence is basically the point of that. Thanks to 588 00:29:34,109 --> 00:29:38,670 Speaker 1: the team behind the Deep Dive podcast, Junani Johari, Tiffany Ang, Saye, 589 00:29:39,109 --> 00:29:41,869 Speaker 1: Tu Yan Yun, and Joan Chan, and some mixing by 590 00:29:41,869 --> 00:29:44,109 Speaker 1: Kendall Bridge. See you guys next week. Bye for now.