1 00:00:03,339 --> 00:00:05,530 Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast. 2 00:00:08,478 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: Everyone wants to know is the industry I'm in now 3 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,789 Speaker 1: or about to go to, going to get a pay bump. 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:17,319 Speaker 1: There has been a talent shortage for supply chain in 5 00:00:17,319 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: the region and so that's driven up 6 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:19,770 Speaker 1: salaries. 7 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 2: I'm interested in the tech space. We know that this 8 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:24,159 Speaker 2: has been a growing space for quite some time, and 9 00:00:24,159 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 2: we've heard a lot about like how sometimes even the 10 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:28,190 Speaker 2: wages are even inflated. So 11 00:00:28,190 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: tech, I mean, I think compared to say the supply 12 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: chain ANF and the banking financial services probably won't see 13 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,269 Speaker 1: a significant an increment this year. 14 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:40,470 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Tiffany and Gerald on the Work It podcast. 15 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:44,959 Speaker 1: It's the start of 2025 and that means fresh beginnings. 16 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:47,229 Speaker 2: And usually this is the time that we're all thinking, 17 00:00:47,330 --> 00:00:50,138 Speaker 2: is there a way to increase my salary. So in 18 00:00:50,139 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 2: today's pod, we'll be asking a few questions about salary 19 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 2: trends for 2025. 1, if you're thinking of moving industries, 20 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,419 Speaker 2: There are some pay increments to expect in the new year. 21 00:00:59,509 --> 00:00:59,740 Speaker 2: And 22 00:00:59,740 --> 00:01:03,549 Speaker 1: 2, which sectors are likely to get a pay bump? Lastly, 23 00:01:03,790 --> 00:01:06,870 Speaker 1: what are in-demand professions this year? You don't want to 24 00:01:06,870 --> 00:01:09,830 Speaker 1: miss our discussion. And a quick reminder that we have 25 00:01:09,830 --> 00:01:12,429 Speaker 1: an AMA question that you have sent us, which we 26 00:01:12,430 --> 00:01:14,660 Speaker 1: will talk about at the end of the main discussion. 27 00:01:14,750 --> 00:01:14,870 Speaker 1: So 28 00:01:14,870 --> 00:01:16,580 Speaker 2: Tiffany, what's the question for today? 29 00:01:17,819 --> 00:01:21,139 Speaker 1: So today's question was sent in by our listener George. 30 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:24,269 Speaker 1: He's in his 50s and he's looking to take it 31 00:01:24,269 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: slow at work, but he thinks his boss is likely 32 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: to give him more work. He's wondering if he should 33 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:34,268 Speaker 1: ask for a demotion. Interesting, right? Stay with us because 34 00:01:34,269 --> 00:01:36,690 Speaker 1: we'll get to George's question at the end. 35 00:01:36,839 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 2: So let's start with our main topic for today's part. Tiffany, 36 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:40,569 Speaker 2: for a start, let me ask you, 37 00:01:40,940 --> 00:01:43,910 Speaker 2: In the new year, do you have a resolution? Are 38 00:01:43,910 --> 00:01:45,860 Speaker 2: you thinking about salary increases? 39 00:01:45,989 --> 00:01:48,949 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I like to work towards a salary increase 40 00:01:48,949 --> 00:01:52,669 Speaker 1: for sure, but not just any increase. A nice fat 41 00:01:52,669 --> 00:01:55,790 Speaker 1: bump would be nice. And I think that there are 42 00:01:55,790 --> 00:01:58,750 Speaker 1: people who will go a step further and are perhaps 43 00:01:58,750 --> 00:02:02,150 Speaker 1: thinking of changing jobs, maybe 2024 hadn't be a very 44 00:02:02,150 --> 00:02:02,910 Speaker 1: good year for them. 45 00:02:03,260 --> 00:02:05,650 Speaker 1: So they want to know, are there industries they should 46 00:02:05,650 --> 00:02:09,279 Speaker 1: go for where they are perhaps likely paid better in 2025. 47 00:02:09,449 --> 00:02:11,360 Speaker 2: So that's great. That's what we're going to get into today. 48 00:02:11,490 --> 00:02:15,759 Speaker 2: Our guest is the director at recruitment firm, Robert Walters, Singapore, 49 00:02:15,970 --> 00:02:18,330 Speaker 2: and they have recently released their salary survey or what 50 00:02:18,330 --> 00:02:22,210 Speaker 2: I call the crystal ball for salary expectation trends. So 51 00:02:22,210 --> 00:02:23,089 Speaker 2: welcome Kirsty 52 00:02:23,089 --> 00:02:25,559 Speaker 1: Porter. Thank you so much for having me. So Kirsty. 53 00:02:25,779 --> 00:02:28,929 Speaker 1: Everyone wants to know is the industry I'm in now 54 00:02:28,929 --> 00:02:32,119 Speaker 1: or about to go to going to get a pay bump. 55 00:02:32,288 --> 00:02:35,369 Speaker 1: Tell us, were there any surprises this year with the 56 00:02:35,369 --> 00:02:38,449 Speaker 1: survey that you guys did? I think consulting the crystal ball, 57 00:02:38,690 --> 00:02:41,758 Speaker 1: no major surprises. I think what we saw is that 58 00:02:41,758 --> 00:02:45,570 Speaker 1: the main areas of industries that will see significant pay 59 00:02:45,570 --> 00:02:48,179 Speaker 1: increments will be in supply chain and procurement with business. 60 00:02:48,300 --> 00:02:52,119 Speaker 1: is trying to optimize their solutions. Accounting and finance, particularly 61 00:02:52,119 --> 00:02:55,940 Speaker 1: with regards to business partnering roles or roles that can 62 00:02:55,940 --> 00:02:59,649 Speaker 1: drive profitability, and then equally in banking and financial services 63 00:02:59,649 --> 00:03:01,809 Speaker 1: we're seeing that increase. Those would be where you would 64 00:03:01,809 --> 00:03:05,100 Speaker 1: see the most significant increments. OK, I mean, banking and finance, 65 00:03:05,169 --> 00:03:07,610 Speaker 1: I know we traditionally have always thought about it as 66 00:03:07,610 --> 00:03:10,399 Speaker 1: the moneymaking sector. So I think there's no surprise there, 67 00:03:10,529 --> 00:03:10,770 Speaker 1: but 68 00:03:10,830 --> 00:03:15,089 Speaker 1: Why supply chain? I mean, have things kind of changed 69 00:03:15,089 --> 00:03:18,889 Speaker 1: in 2025? I think ultimately there has been a talent 70 00:03:18,889 --> 00:03:21,929 Speaker 1: shortage for supply chain in the region and so that's 71 00:03:21,929 --> 00:03:24,210 Speaker 1: driven up salaries and the fact that obviously this is 72 00:03:24,210 --> 00:03:26,519 Speaker 1: a clear area for organizations to want to look at 73 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: optimization and controlling cost. So they are willing to look 74 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,210 Speaker 1: at driving the salaries up to secure the right talent. 75 00:03:33,538 --> 00:03:37,970 Speaker 1: I think beyond 2025 that will probably stabilize, but 2025 76 00:03:37,970 --> 00:03:39,649 Speaker 1: would definitely be the year to capitalize if you're in 77 00:03:39,649 --> 00:03:42,690 Speaker 1: that space. What exactly in this sector are they trying 78 00:03:42,690 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: to optimize? I think they're looking at their processes, trying 79 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:48,490 Speaker 1: to centralize their processes, and obviously look at where they 80 00:03:48,490 --> 00:03:52,089 Speaker 1: can achieve the most cost savings, so streamlining the processes 81 00:03:52,089 --> 00:03:55,009 Speaker 1: in their supply chain. Obviously, a lot of supply chain 82 00:03:55,009 --> 00:03:57,729 Speaker 1: processes have been offshored, but then the decision makings are 83 00:03:57,729 --> 00:03:59,089 Speaker 1: still happening from Singapore. 84 00:03:59,490 --> 00:04:02,300 Speaker 1: So it's more a question of having the right strategic 85 00:04:02,300 --> 00:04:05,770 Speaker 1: individuals at a management level to really kind of focus 86 00:04:05,770 --> 00:04:09,770 Speaker 1: on sort of digital transformation, data interpretation to make sure 87 00:04:09,770 --> 00:04:12,289 Speaker 1: that they are getting the right cost savings for the business. 88 00:04:12,419 --> 00:04:15,809 Speaker 2: The industries that Kirsty brought up, they are the traditionally 89 00:04:16,100 --> 00:04:19,260 Speaker 2: growing ones every year, if you follow the reports, every 90 00:04:19,260 --> 00:04:22,119 Speaker 2: year you can see steady increases in terms of salary. 91 00:04:22,380 --> 00:04:24,619 Speaker 2: I'm interested in the tech space, we know that this 92 00:04:24,619 --> 00:04:26,220 Speaker 2: has been a growing space for quite some time. 93 00:04:26,660 --> 00:04:29,178 Speaker 2: We've heard a lot about like how sometimes even the 94 00:04:29,178 --> 00:04:32,579 Speaker 2: wages are even inflated because of the labor shortages. So 95 00:04:32,579 --> 00:04:34,618 Speaker 2: Chris Steve, what would you comment on like the growing 96 00:04:34,619 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 2: roles within the tech sector? So 97 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,859 Speaker 1: tech, I mean, I think compared to say the supply 98 00:04:38,859 --> 00:04:41,739 Speaker 1: chain ANF and the banking financial services probably won't see us. 99 00:04:41,940 --> 00:04:44,850 Speaker 1: an increment this year, but for strategic roles, you will 100 00:04:44,850 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: see that kind of 20% increment if you're moving roles, 101 00:04:48,170 --> 00:04:52,368 Speaker 1: and that would be more data scientists and analysts. Cybersecurity 102 00:04:52,369 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: is still a huge space to invest in and one 103 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,290 Speaker 1: that if you're talented, you will secure a good increment. 104 00:04:57,540 --> 00:05:01,969 Speaker 1: And software engineers. Also individuals with an experience in AI 105 00:05:01,970 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: and machine learning, huge space. I mean the AI and 106 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,049 Speaker 1: machine learning thing, I think it's across many different industries, 107 00:05:08,089 --> 00:05:11,570 Speaker 1: but you're saying that especially more so in the tech 108 00:05:11,570 --> 00:05:13,459 Speaker 1: industry because there's going to be a big race this year. 109 00:05:13,809 --> 00:05:15,649 Speaker 1: We want to get into the details because I think 110 00:05:15,649 --> 00:05:18,230 Speaker 1: people want to talk about the money bit, right? So 111 00:05:18,230 --> 00:05:22,100 Speaker 1: if I am staying in the tech sector and I'm 112 00:05:22,100 --> 00:05:23,488 Speaker 1: asking for pay agreement, 113 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:27,519 Speaker 1: How much would companies be willing to give their employees? 114 00:05:27,559 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 1: So what we're seeing across the market is for strategic 115 00:05:30,359 --> 00:05:34,350 Speaker 1: roles up to 20%. If you move, right? If you're 116 00:05:34,350 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: going to stay with your current organization, what we've seen 117 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:39,959 Speaker 1: from our respondents is most likely there'll be a sort 118 00:05:39,959 --> 00:05:43,359 Speaker 1: of 2 to 5% increment based on inflation. OK, so 119 00:05:43,359 --> 00:05:46,670 Speaker 1: it pays to jump, then could do. 120 00:05:47,540 --> 00:05:49,700 Speaker 1: Well, if you have the skills, then you jump, right? 121 00:05:49,850 --> 00:05:52,220 Speaker 1: I mean, you could jump within the sector. Yeah, absolutely 122 00:05:52,220 --> 00:05:55,369 Speaker 1: you could do. So help me to understand, companies want 123 00:05:55,369 --> 00:05:58,940 Speaker 1: to attract talent, but why not then retain them? If 124 00:05:58,940 --> 00:06:02,940 Speaker 1: they jump companies, they get a 20% pay increase, but 125 00:06:02,940 --> 00:06:04,940 Speaker 1: if they stay, they're only getting 2 to 5%. Why 126 00:06:04,940 --> 00:06:09,179 Speaker 1: don't companies to retain that talent, try and match that 20% 127 00:06:09,178 --> 00:06:11,019 Speaker 1: as well. I think what you have to think about 128 00:06:11,019 --> 00:06:13,850 Speaker 1: when you're retaining individuals is not just about the increment, 129 00:06:13,899 --> 00:06:16,380 Speaker 1: you're also looking at all the other elements that you 130 00:06:16,380 --> 00:06:17,100 Speaker 1: want to provide. 131 00:06:17,350 --> 00:06:19,230 Speaker 1: So a lot of companies are looking at that flexible 132 00:06:19,230 --> 00:06:22,260 Speaker 1: working and obviously we've had that new legislation from the government, 133 00:06:22,459 --> 00:06:25,380 Speaker 1: but before that organizations have been really focusing on how 134 00:06:25,380 --> 00:06:30,260 Speaker 1: do they increase flexibility, well-being of employees, giving them rotational 135 00:06:30,260 --> 00:06:33,079 Speaker 1: programs so that if they ever wanted to pivot within 136 00:06:33,079 --> 00:06:35,540 Speaker 1: their career, they can already learn those skills within their 137 00:06:35,540 --> 00:06:39,380 Speaker 1: current organization. So whilst increments are important, it's not the 138 00:06:39,380 --> 00:06:42,059 Speaker 1: only factor for why an individual would be retained. 139 00:06:42,399 --> 00:06:45,099 Speaker 1: And 2 to 5% is kind of the average of 140 00:06:45,100 --> 00:06:49,500 Speaker 1: course for strategic roles in organization. Organizations will understand that 141 00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:51,709 Speaker 1: those individuals will be tapped up, so they will look 142 00:06:51,709 --> 00:06:54,820 Speaker 1: at being competitive, but they will look at the overall 143 00:06:54,820 --> 00:06:56,579 Speaker 1: package rather than just the increment. 144 00:06:56,899 --> 00:06:59,339 Speaker 2: I think what Christy mentioned is really important, while we 145 00:06:59,339 --> 00:06:59,820 Speaker 2: might look at it as 146 00:07:00,059 --> 00:07:02,799 Speaker 2: 20% versus 5%. The truth is it takes a lot 147 00:07:02,799 --> 00:07:04,869 Speaker 2: for someone to make a change in their job role. 148 00:07:05,079 --> 00:07:07,519 Speaker 2: There are a lot of uncertain unknowns. Most of the 149 00:07:07,519 --> 00:07:09,829 Speaker 2: time people would prefer to have some sort of stability, 150 00:07:10,070 --> 00:07:12,070 Speaker 2: and maybe that 5% would be good enough for them, 151 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,869 Speaker 2: but coupled with all the other things that Gusty was saying, right, 152 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:17,559 Speaker 2: the flexible work and especially in the tech industry. 153 00:07:17,839 --> 00:07:19,709 Speaker 2: I think that's what they also want. They want that 154 00:07:19,709 --> 00:07:21,829 Speaker 2: little bit of increment and they want that little bit 155 00:07:21,829 --> 00:07:24,790 Speaker 2: more autonomy. They want to see more connection between their 156 00:07:24,790 --> 00:07:25,619 Speaker 2: work and themselves. 157 00:07:25,790 --> 00:07:27,950 Speaker 1: Yeah, and also not forgetting that we're just talking about 158 00:07:27,950 --> 00:07:30,950 Speaker 1: increments here, so people who stay could be also promised 159 00:07:30,950 --> 00:07:33,029 Speaker 1: a big bonus as well, right? So that's for the 160 00:07:33,029 --> 00:07:34,989 Speaker 1: tech sector. Let's go back a little bit to that 161 00:07:34,989 --> 00:07:39,750 Speaker 1: supply chain sector. How much of an increment are we 162 00:07:39,750 --> 00:07:41,179 Speaker 1: looking at if you 163 00:07:41,877 --> 00:07:44,457 Speaker 1: and if you jump. So the blanket figures that we 164 00:07:44,457 --> 00:07:47,617 Speaker 1: have from our survey are if you stay across all sectors, 165 00:07:47,696 --> 00:07:50,177 Speaker 1: it will be between sort of 2 and 5%. So 166 00:07:50,177 --> 00:07:52,897 Speaker 1: that kind of stands regardless of sector, but in supply chain, 167 00:07:52,907 --> 00:07:55,726 Speaker 1: we'd be looking at somewhere around 15% as an increment. 168 00:07:56,446 --> 00:07:59,756 Speaker 1: If you, if you jump and you're in a strategic role, 169 00:07:59,897 --> 00:08:02,576 Speaker 1: so that would be things like a regional logistics and 170 00:08:02,576 --> 00:08:04,536 Speaker 1: distribution manager, supply chain. 171 00:08:04,623 --> 00:08:08,764 Speaker 1: Project manager and anyone in the sustainability space related to 172 00:08:08,764 --> 00:08:11,074 Speaker 1: procurement as well. That's a core focus. 173 00:08:11,694 --> 00:08:15,153 Speaker 2: When you mentioned core focus of the sustainable procurement manager, 174 00:08:15,164 --> 00:08:17,003 Speaker 2: give us an idea of like what an employer would 175 00:08:17,003 --> 00:08:19,114 Speaker 2: be paying for for someone doing that kind of a role. 176 00:08:19,243 --> 00:08:19,444 Speaker 1: So the 177 00:08:19,444 --> 00:08:22,634 Speaker 1: salary? Oh gosh, I'd need to consult the crystal ball. 178 00:08:22,924 --> 00:08:25,204 Speaker 1: I mean, I think the salaries in that sort of 179 00:08:25,204 --> 00:08:27,884 Speaker 1: area can range from sort of maybe 180 00:08:28,010 --> 00:08:32,351 Speaker 1: 12K upwards, depending on where your skill set is in 181 00:08:32,351 --> 00:08:35,950 Speaker 1: that sustainable space because it's such a cool topic not 182 00:08:35,950 --> 00:08:38,351 Speaker 1: just within supply chain but across the industry and for 183 00:08:38,351 --> 00:08:41,231 Speaker 1: Singapore and we don't have enough talent in that space 184 00:08:41,231 --> 00:08:43,710 Speaker 1: to be honest. So green jobs is something that we 185 00:08:43,710 --> 00:08:46,710 Speaker 1: will be seeing an upward pay bump. OK, that's good 186 00:08:46,710 --> 00:08:48,910 Speaker 1: to know because I think some people, they may feel 187 00:08:48,910 --> 00:08:52,111 Speaker 1: very passionate about the climate and everything, but they're also 188 00:08:52,111 --> 00:08:52,780 Speaker 1: thinking 189 00:08:53,119 --> 00:08:55,500 Speaker 1: You know, it feels like a very altruistic role, but 190 00:08:55,500 --> 00:08:57,539 Speaker 1: you're saying that a lot of companies are going to 191 00:08:57,539 --> 00:09:00,460 Speaker 1: try and move towards, you know, considering that as a 192 00:09:00,460 --> 00:09:03,738 Speaker 1: strategic role. So they will be, you know, looking to 193 00:09:03,739 --> 00:09:07,090 Speaker 1: show up as much talent as possible in this area. 194 00:09:07,260 --> 00:09:09,820 Speaker 1: I think you've seen over the last few years that 195 00:09:09,820 --> 00:09:12,619 Speaker 1: companies have put more and more focus on sustainability and 196 00:09:12,619 --> 00:09:15,049 Speaker 1: now it's a core sort of metric in the business 197 00:09:15,049 --> 00:09:16,309 Speaker 1: with clear goals for 198 00:09:16,445 --> 00:09:18,776 Speaker 1: The next 3 to 5 years depending on the organization, 199 00:09:19,026 --> 00:09:21,184 Speaker 1: and now they have to be robust in that and 200 00:09:21,184 --> 00:09:23,825 Speaker 1: have the right talent to drive that. So that's where 201 00:09:23,825 --> 00:09:26,466 Speaker 1: I think also from a perspective of a job seeker 202 00:09:26,466 --> 00:09:29,306 Speaker 1: can capitalize on that moment. Yeah, for sure, yeah. But 203 00:09:29,306 --> 00:09:31,505 Speaker 2: there's a lot of individuals I met, they always expressed 204 00:09:31,505 --> 00:09:35,226 Speaker 2: interest in the ESG in the green climate roles. So 205 00:09:35,226 --> 00:09:39,556 Speaker 2: they're always asking like which other industries also have similar 206 00:09:39,611 --> 00:09:42,872 Speaker 2: evolving roles that would integrate some of these green concepts 207 00:09:42,872 --> 00:09:43,372 Speaker 2: or green 208 00:09:43,372 --> 00:09:43,861 Speaker 2: thinking. 209 00:09:44,030 --> 00:09:46,511 Speaker 1: I've mainly see them in the supply and chain space, 210 00:09:46,591 --> 00:09:50,631 Speaker 1: oil and gas, shipping, those kind of areas and also 211 00:09:50,631 --> 00:09:52,711 Speaker 1: is looking at how these companies are able to tap 212 00:09:52,711 --> 00:09:56,432 Speaker 1: into government grants, right? Because these companies will be saying 213 00:09:56,432 --> 00:09:58,271 Speaker 1: that OK, if you are in Singapore and the government 214 00:09:58,271 --> 00:10:01,851 Speaker 1: is going to put a hefty sum into this green fund, 215 00:10:01,992 --> 00:10:02,791 Speaker 1: this grant. 216 00:10:03,150 --> 00:10:05,270 Speaker 1: Then companies will be trying to tap into that and 217 00:10:05,270 --> 00:10:07,590 Speaker 1: then they'll be trying to create more roles or retain 218 00:10:07,590 --> 00:10:11,468 Speaker 1: talent for this sustainable manager, right? This is definitely a 219 00:10:11,469 --> 00:10:13,989 Speaker 1: space that I would recommend that if somebody is considering 220 00:10:13,989 --> 00:10:16,390 Speaker 1: like a career switch, they can start to build their 221 00:10:16,390 --> 00:10:19,099 Speaker 1: skill set towards because I think it's a forward moving 222 00:10:19,099 --> 00:10:21,059 Speaker 1: role that will continue to evolve. 223 00:10:21,250 --> 00:10:22,309 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think for many. 224 00:10:22,469 --> 00:10:25,299 Speaker 2: Businesses, business owners I met, they are still quite new 225 00:10:25,299 --> 00:10:28,340 Speaker 2: to this and they don't really know what exactly the 226 00:10:28,340 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 2: role is about, but they know it's important. So this 227 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:33,260 Speaker 2: is definitely something to watch out for in the coming 228 00:10:33,260 --> 00:10:33,770 Speaker 2: years. 229 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:35,940 Speaker 1: I know a lot of people in the sales and 230 00:10:35,940 --> 00:10:38,859 Speaker 1: marketing sector and a lot of people are moving into 231 00:10:38,859 --> 00:10:41,859 Speaker 1: that because obviously commissions are higher in that place and 232 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:43,900 Speaker 1: They may be at the stage of their life where 233 00:10:43,900 --> 00:10:47,780 Speaker 1: they are hustling, right? So what are the increments going 234 00:10:47,780 --> 00:10:51,150 Speaker 1: to be like in that sector? If they're moving again 235 00:10:51,150 --> 00:10:54,579 Speaker 1: sort of 15 to 20%, but the individuals that move 236 00:10:54,580 --> 00:10:56,739 Speaker 1: need to be able to demonstrate that they have a 237 00:10:56,739 --> 00:11:00,900 Speaker 1: good balance between business development skills and account management. I 238 00:11:00,900 --> 00:11:04,409 Speaker 1: think historically potentially account management skills have kind of driven 239 00:11:04,409 --> 00:11:07,459 Speaker 1: it more, but now we do need those BD skills 240 00:11:07,460 --> 00:11:09,369 Speaker 1: to be coming through as well. So, 241 00:11:09,445 --> 00:11:11,695 Speaker 1: That would be something to present out to market if 242 00:11:11,695 --> 00:11:14,724 Speaker 1: you were moving. OK, so a little bit lower than 243 00:11:14,724 --> 00:11:16,734 Speaker 1: the ones that we have talked about before, which is 244 00:11:16,734 --> 00:11:19,734 Speaker 1: about 20%, you are talking about 15%. I think in 245 00:11:19,734 --> 00:11:23,025 Speaker 1: most of these roles you've got significant bonuses or commission, right? 246 00:11:23,135 --> 00:11:26,844 Speaker 1: So the base doesn't have to be as highly incremented 247 00:11:26,844 --> 00:11:28,854 Speaker 1: to move forward. And if you stay, what sort of 248 00:11:28,854 --> 00:11:33,534 Speaker 1: increments are we looking at? Around 5%. That's still significant. Well, 249 00:11:33,575 --> 00:11:36,614 Speaker 1: we want to retain our salespeople, right, driving our profits. 250 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,359 Speaker 1: Exactly in every company. We need that, we need them. 251 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: A lot of people listening to this podcast are also 252 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,080 Speaker 1: from the human resource sector. There's a lot more extra 253 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,510 Speaker 1: work that our HR friends will have to do this year, 254 00:11:48,719 --> 00:11:53,159 Speaker 1: flexible work arrangements, things like companies calling for more return 255 00:11:53,159 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 1: to office. 256 00:11:54,405 --> 00:11:57,694 Speaker 1: Policies and then people getting pissed off and wanting to 257 00:11:58,205 --> 00:12:02,205 Speaker 1: leave or quit. So, human resources, how much pay agreements 258 00:12:02,205 --> 00:12:05,005 Speaker 1: are we talking about in this sector. Again, probably somewhere 259 00:12:05,005 --> 00:12:09,135 Speaker 1: around 15 to 20% if you're moving within internally it 260 00:12:09,135 --> 00:12:10,724 Speaker 1: will probably be 3 to 5%. 261 00:12:11,049 --> 00:12:13,150 Speaker 1: But there are certain roles that I think you'd see 262 00:12:13,150 --> 00:12:16,289 Speaker 1: significant increments for those would be HR business partners, but 263 00:12:16,289 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: those really commercially focused HR business partners that are very 264 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,140 Speaker 1: strategic and working with the general management to drive like 265 00:12:23,140 --> 00:12:26,859 Speaker 1: the business processes, talent management, because that's obviously how we're 266 00:12:26,859 --> 00:12:29,339 Speaker 1: going to retain our talent and develop them. 267 00:12:29,700 --> 00:12:32,250 Speaker 1: And total rewards, that's a huge area of focus at 268 00:12:32,250 --> 00:12:35,969 Speaker 1: the C-suite level. A number of organizations are looking for 269 00:12:35,969 --> 00:12:39,289 Speaker 1: senior total rewards specialists in order to support the C-suite 270 00:12:39,289 --> 00:12:42,530 Speaker 1: with their decision making. Interesting, why so, I'm curious to 271 00:12:42,530 --> 00:12:45,848 Speaker 1: know why now. I think there's obviously the focus on cost, right? 272 00:12:45,969 --> 00:12:47,729 Speaker 1: Total rewards will review all of that. 273 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:50,969 Speaker 1: And now there's more of that emphasis on really reviewing 274 00:12:50,969 --> 00:12:54,130 Speaker 1: that in a holistic manner more than ever. So there's 275 00:12:54,130 --> 00:12:56,169 Speaker 1: a lot more demand for it and there aren't that 276 00:12:56,169 --> 00:12:59,969 Speaker 1: many individuals with that experience. So again, if you're in 277 00:12:59,969 --> 00:13:02,059 Speaker 1: an HR role and you have the opportunity to start 278 00:13:02,059 --> 00:13:05,210 Speaker 1: touching on total rewards comp and Ben, I'd advise you 279 00:13:05,210 --> 00:13:07,609 Speaker 1: to start moving into that within your organization because that's 280 00:13:07,609 --> 00:13:08,848 Speaker 1: a skill that's really going to build 281 00:13:08,849 --> 00:13:09,130 Speaker 1: up. 282 00:13:09,250 --> 00:13:12,489 Speaker 2: Or would there be certain industries where more functional roles 283 00:13:12,489 --> 00:13:13,780 Speaker 2: can expect a higher pay 284 00:13:13,780 --> 00:13:17,130 Speaker 1: increment? For those, let's say for HR we've seen a 285 00:13:17,130 --> 00:13:17,830 Speaker 1: stronger emphasis in 286 00:13:17,877 --> 00:13:21,627 Speaker 1: The farmer industry. Also FS continues to be an area 287 00:13:21,627 --> 00:13:25,747 Speaker 1: of focus within the FMCG space as well. Are there 288 00:13:25,747 --> 00:13:29,856 Speaker 1: sort of sectors that unfortunately may not do as well 289 00:13:29,856 --> 00:13:32,896 Speaker 1: this year? I don't think any worse than last year. 290 00:13:33,187 --> 00:13:35,306 Speaker 1: The reality is that when it comes, if we're talking 291 00:13:35,307 --> 00:13:38,827 Speaker 1: about increments, this is on the forefront of every organization's 292 00:13:38,827 --> 00:13:41,776 Speaker 1: mind in the thought process of they want to retain 293 00:13:41,776 --> 00:13:44,867 Speaker 1: their talent, so looking at the increments and valuing the 294 00:13:44,867 --> 00:13:47,726 Speaker 1: talent they've got, but also providing the flexibility or the 295 00:13:47,953 --> 00:13:51,604 Speaker 1: holistic overall package is important, but I think what's important 296 00:13:51,604 --> 00:13:55,123 Speaker 1: as a job seeker is also to think about security 297 00:13:55,124 --> 00:13:57,272 Speaker 1: of the decision of what kind of industry you're moving 298 00:13:57,273 --> 00:14:00,203 Speaker 1: into and what kind of organization and what the track 299 00:14:00,203 --> 00:14:03,374 Speaker 1: record's been. You can't just look at that increment and go, right, 300 00:14:03,523 --> 00:14:05,564 Speaker 1: I want that 20%. You've got to look at the 301 00:14:05,564 --> 00:14:08,143 Speaker 1: full picture. That's true. Big tech has had quite a 302 00:14:08,323 --> 00:14:11,523 Speaker 1: big year last year with the rise and the fall, right? 303 00:14:11,544 --> 00:14:14,754 Speaker 1: We've seen really big layoffs even just a few months ago. 304 00:14:15,083 --> 00:14:17,624 Speaker 1: So bearing in mind that you can be looking 305 00:14:17,671 --> 00:14:20,380 Speaker 1: For that 20% agreement, but there is no guarantee that 306 00:14:20,380 --> 00:14:23,700 Speaker 1: by the end of the year, you still have a position, right? 307 00:14:23,781 --> 00:14:26,661 Speaker 1: I think we've seen over the last few years more retrenchments, 308 00:14:26,820 --> 00:14:30,580 Speaker 1: more instability, and I think job security at any experience 309 00:14:30,580 --> 00:14:32,700 Speaker 1: level in the market is important, but I suppose if 310 00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:35,781 Speaker 1: you're moving, you would have a certain level of risk appetite, right? 311 00:14:35,820 --> 00:14:37,580 Speaker 1: I suppose if you're earlier in your career, you might 312 00:14:37,580 --> 00:14:40,060 Speaker 1: have more and if you've got a lot of financial commitments, 313 00:14:40,101 --> 00:14:41,620 Speaker 1: you probably need to take it all into 314 00:14:41,620 --> 00:14:41,940 Speaker 1: account. 315 00:14:41,981 --> 00:14:44,620 Speaker 2: We know that the economy maybe next year, I'm not 316 00:14:44,620 --> 00:14:46,580 Speaker 2: sure the outlook of how it would look like, probably 317 00:14:46,580 --> 00:14:47,460 Speaker 2: similar to this year. 318 00:14:47,929 --> 00:14:50,859 Speaker 2: But for the average listener who's employed and who's thinking 319 00:14:50,859 --> 00:14:52,619 Speaker 2: should I move, there's really a lot on their minds 320 00:14:52,900 --> 00:14:56,260 Speaker 2: beyond the salary, they're considering the flexible work arrangement, they're 321 00:14:56,260 --> 00:14:59,090 Speaker 2: considering probably other areas of need that they might have, 322 00:14:59,299 --> 00:15:01,739 Speaker 2: that they might even be considering like security in terms 323 00:15:01,739 --> 00:15:04,380 Speaker 2: of like their own personal growth, right? If the company 324 00:15:04,380 --> 00:15:07,700 Speaker 2: cannot guarantee me employment security, then where's the security going 325 00:15:07,700 --> 00:15:08,940 Speaker 2: to come from? It will come from the. 326 00:15:09,056 --> 00:15:11,966 Speaker 2: individual's own skill set and how they're able to apply 327 00:15:11,966 --> 00:15:14,135 Speaker 2: and to invest in that area so that they can 328 00:15:14,135 --> 00:15:16,445 Speaker 2: produce more, be more productive. We also have to ask ourselves, like, 329 00:15:16,455 --> 00:15:18,335 Speaker 2: do we deserve the increment and what do we have 330 00:15:18,335 --> 00:15:21,736 Speaker 2: to command that kind of 20% more, right? Because everybody 331 00:15:21,736 --> 00:15:24,005 Speaker 2: wants that 20% more, but do you have that difference? 332 00:15:24,335 --> 00:15:26,536 Speaker 2: Are you able to articulate the experiences you have or 333 00:15:26,536 --> 00:15:28,895 Speaker 2: are you just merely trying to go for a higher 334 00:15:28,895 --> 00:15:30,046 Speaker 2: paying job all the time? 335 00:15:30,372 --> 00:15:32,812 Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point because we would 336 00:15:32,812 --> 00:15:36,642 Speaker 1: like a bigger increment, 15, 20%, but that comes with expectation. 337 00:15:36,771 --> 00:15:38,892 Speaker 1: And if you can't deliver on that, that will be 338 00:15:38,892 --> 00:15:41,692 Speaker 1: a challenge, right? So we've also got to benchmark our 339 00:15:41,692 --> 00:15:44,411 Speaker 1: own role, see where our skill set sits, where we 340 00:15:44,411 --> 00:15:47,210 Speaker 1: can add value, what additional responsibility we can take to 341 00:15:47,211 --> 00:15:47,812 Speaker 1: justify that 342 00:15:47,812 --> 00:15:50,632 Speaker 2: increment. Maybe in this line next year, if you're thinking 343 00:15:50,632 --> 00:15:51,221 Speaker 2: about getting 344 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,229 Speaker 2: An increment, also think about investing in yourself so that 345 00:15:54,229 --> 00:15:56,630 Speaker 2: you can get the increment. It's not just about changing 346 00:15:56,630 --> 00:15:59,429 Speaker 2: the job, but it's about really deepening your skill sets, 347 00:15:59,789 --> 00:16:03,270 Speaker 2: increasing the repertoire of your experiences and also your portfolios, 348 00:16:03,630 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 2: so that you can really go in confidence to ask 349 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:06,510 Speaker 2: for what you think you deserve. 350 00:16:06,700 --> 00:16:09,090 Speaker 1: Yeah, so thank you so much, Christy, for coming on 351 00:16:09,090 --> 00:16:12,090 Speaker 1: and sharing this insight. We hope for anyone listening in 352 00:16:12,090 --> 00:16:17,390 Speaker 1: that your 2025 will bring in fresh beginnings, fresh promises 353 00:16:17,489 --> 00:16:19,609 Speaker 1: and hopefully at the end of the year, you'll be 354 00:16:19,609 --> 00:16:21,890 Speaker 1: happy with what you have done. Thank you. Thank you. 355 00:16:26,119 --> 00:16:29,679 Speaker 1: Hi, this is our Ask Me Anything segment where Gerald 356 00:16:29,679 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: and I get a question from you and then we 357 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,229 Speaker 1: will help give a different perspective to it. So let's 358 00:16:35,229 --> 00:16:36,369 Speaker 1: dive straight in. 359 00:16:36,820 --> 00:16:40,179 Speaker 1: Our listener George sent this question and it's something I'm 360 00:16:40,179 --> 00:16:43,450 Speaker 1: sure many people face at some stage in their career. 361 00:16:43,820 --> 00:16:47,289 Speaker 1: George is in his 50s and is in a fairly 362 00:16:47,289 --> 00:16:50,659 Speaker 1: senior position in his company, but he says there are 363 00:16:50,659 --> 00:16:53,969 Speaker 1: some changes and he's likely to take on more roles. 364 00:16:54,260 --> 00:16:56,979 Speaker 1: Although here is where the kicker comes, George says, 365 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: Let me read, at this point, I feel I want 366 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,419 Speaker 1: to actually focus on how I want to spend the rest, 367 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:06,270 Speaker 1: which is the last 1/3 or so of his life. 368 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: Instead of continuing to stress out on work and climbing 369 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:13,030 Speaker 1: the ladder, I've also lost my passion for the work. 370 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: So I think right now it's mainly a source of 371 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 1: income for me. 372 00:17:17,869 --> 00:17:20,750 Speaker 1: George wants to scale down on his work commitments and 373 00:17:20,750 --> 00:17:24,270 Speaker 1: spend time getting healthier, pursuing his interest in art, maybe 374 00:17:24,270 --> 00:17:27,829 Speaker 1: even use his skills future credits to rescale and do 375 00:17:27,829 --> 00:17:30,379 Speaker 1: a different field of work. So he wants to know, 376 00:17:30,550 --> 00:17:33,430 Speaker 1: how can he go about managing this and more importantly, 377 00:17:33,550 --> 00:17:34,389 Speaker 1: should he ask for a 378 00:17:34,390 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: demotion? 379 00:17:35,180 --> 00:17:37,790 Speaker 2: Well, I think for someone in George's situation, 380 00:17:38,069 --> 00:17:41,579 Speaker 2: It's what I would term as like a fairly uneasy feeling, 381 00:17:41,619 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 2: a stuck feeling. So typically when someone like George in 382 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,139 Speaker 2: their maybe 50s, maybe approaching 60s, a lot of professionals, 383 00:17:48,180 --> 00:17:50,300 Speaker 2: they start to think this way like George. They start 384 00:17:50,300 --> 00:17:53,780 Speaker 2: to wonder like, OK, the retirement is coming up. Do 385 00:17:53,780 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 2: I still want to do what I want to do? 386 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,459 Speaker 2: And then sometimes there are push factors like changes in 387 00:17:57,459 --> 00:18:00,930 Speaker 2: the company, expectations, people loading more work, and they feel like, 388 00:18:01,140 --> 00:18:02,689 Speaker 2: I don't want to do this anymore in my life, 389 00:18:02,780 --> 00:18:04,209 Speaker 2: my career is coming to an end. 390 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 2: How should my life look like? And then this is 391 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,239 Speaker 2: the place where they are finally find themselves in this 392 00:18:08,239 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 2: what we call the transitioning space, where they're not quite 393 00:18:11,199 --> 00:18:12,989 Speaker 2: ready to move on to something new yet. 394 00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:14,930 Speaker 2: But they're also not quite ready to let go of 395 00:18:14,930 --> 00:18:17,209 Speaker 2: what's present. So that's why it can be a bit 396 00:18:17,209 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 2: uneasy and questions like, hey, should I get a demotion 397 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,199 Speaker 2: or should I leave the company or do something totally different, 398 00:18:23,369 --> 00:18:25,569 Speaker 2: upscale and reskill and do something new, these will be 399 00:18:25,569 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 2: thoughts that will just flood in. 400 00:18:27,270 --> 00:18:30,020 Speaker 1: And I think also when you are in your 50s lightly, 401 00:18:30,079 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 1: so your finances might be a bit more secure. Maybe 402 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,290 Speaker 1: you have paid off a housing loan, your children, they're 403 00:18:36,290 --> 00:18:39,010 Speaker 1: probably adults at this point in time. So finances is 404 00:18:39,010 --> 00:18:40,198 Speaker 1: not something that maybe 405 00:18:40,285 --> 00:18:43,114 Speaker 1: What she's worried about. So how can he approach it? 406 00:18:43,155 --> 00:18:45,295 Speaker 1: How can he have this conversation with his 407 00:18:45,295 --> 00:18:45,895 Speaker 1: boss? 408 00:18:45,994 --> 00:18:49,034 Speaker 2: I think before having any conversation with bosses, George will 409 00:18:49,035 --> 00:18:51,675 Speaker 2: need to have a conversation with himself first, right, to 410 00:18:51,675 --> 00:18:54,834 Speaker 2: kind of take stock how his career has been going, right? 411 00:18:54,875 --> 00:18:56,915 Speaker 2: It's really important for us to kind of map back 412 00:18:56,915 --> 00:19:00,794 Speaker 2: that 2030, 35 years of work experiences, what have we 413 00:19:00,795 --> 00:19:03,275 Speaker 2: achieved and what have we done? How much of these 414 00:19:03,275 --> 00:19:05,305 Speaker 2: achievements and things that we have done and experiences we've 415 00:19:05,305 --> 00:19:07,234 Speaker 2: clocked in, right, was actually something that 416 00:19:07,569 --> 00:19:09,969 Speaker 2: We felt really meant a lot to us. How did 417 00:19:09,969 --> 00:19:11,290 Speaker 2: we grow through this process? 418 00:19:11,670 --> 00:19:14,270 Speaker 2: Because we need to know where we are right now 419 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:16,448 Speaker 2: and how we have developed to this point before we 420 00:19:16,449 --> 00:19:18,479 Speaker 2: are able to think about what's the next step. It's 421 00:19:18,479 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 2: almost like writing a story. You can't write in the 422 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 2: next chapter without looking back at the chapters that been 423 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,319 Speaker 2: written before. There must have been certain things that he 424 00:19:25,319 --> 00:19:27,670 Speaker 2: really enjoyed doing and certain things that make him who 425 00:19:27,670 --> 00:19:30,199 Speaker 2: he is today. So who is that George today and 426 00:19:30,199 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 2: how does he want to move forward from it? What 427 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 2: would the new version of him look like? So that's 428 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 2: part of taking stock. The other thing is also kind 429 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:37,770 Speaker 2: of prepare himself or for. 430 00:19:37,887 --> 00:19:41,036 Speaker 2: Different scenarios to make certain decisions that maybe people may 431 00:19:41,037 --> 00:19:43,517 Speaker 2: not understand. For example, taking into emotions is not something 432 00:19:43,517 --> 00:19:46,196 Speaker 2: that most people would agree or encourage his peers 433 00:19:46,196 --> 00:19:47,717 Speaker 1: would be like, oh, so silly. Why would you do that? 434 00:19:47,797 --> 00:19:48,718 Speaker 1: Company want to give you money, 435 00:19:49,307 --> 00:19:51,427 Speaker 2: just exactly, but you know, that's why George, having done 436 00:19:51,427 --> 00:19:53,878 Speaker 2: that stocktake, that review of themselves and then thinking about 437 00:19:53,878 --> 00:19:56,317 Speaker 2: their life, not just thinking about work, but thinking more 438 00:19:56,317 --> 00:19:58,917 Speaker 2: about their family, the life after retirement as well, start 439 00:19:58,917 --> 00:20:01,196 Speaker 2: to vision a little bit more, start to talk to 440 00:20:01,196 --> 00:20:03,718 Speaker 2: your family members and maybe let's say spouses or kids 441 00:20:03,718 --> 00:20:04,197 Speaker 2: and start to 442 00:20:04,705 --> 00:20:07,316 Speaker 2: Vision, like what would life outside of work look like? Yeah, 443 00:20:08,196 --> 00:20:10,955 Speaker 2: so have those conversations as well before you go to 444 00:20:10,955 --> 00:20:12,826 Speaker 2: your boss. It's like the boss is the last thing. 445 00:20:12,984 --> 00:20:14,395 Speaker 2: It's like when you have kind of decided and you're 446 00:20:14,395 --> 00:20:16,475 Speaker 2: very sure because you know what, whatever you say already 447 00:20:16,475 --> 00:20:19,744 Speaker 2: kind of sets the kind of expectations in the workplace. 448 00:20:19,916 --> 00:20:21,245 Speaker 2: If you tell your boss, I don't think I'm up 449 00:20:21,244 --> 00:20:23,336 Speaker 2: for it, right, you can almost imagine all the opportunities 450 00:20:23,336 --> 00:20:25,375 Speaker 2: in the future, it will not come to you. 451 00:20:25,755 --> 00:20:28,036 Speaker 1: But I think if George is very clear that this 452 00:20:28,036 --> 00:20:30,515 Speaker 1: is it and he would really like to take a step. 453 00:20:30,624 --> 00:20:34,104 Speaker 1: back, not ready for retirement, not ready to be fired, 454 00:20:34,193 --> 00:20:36,673 Speaker 1: of course. I think one of the conversations that he 455 00:20:36,673 --> 00:20:39,274 Speaker 1: can have with his boss is to say, look, I've 456 00:20:39,273 --> 00:20:41,384 Speaker 1: done so much for the company, I've learned so much. 457 00:20:41,673 --> 00:20:44,713 Speaker 1: I would actually like to be a mentor to people 458 00:20:44,713 --> 00:20:47,463 Speaker 1: who are younger or people who have just joined the company. 459 00:20:47,792 --> 00:20:50,783 Speaker 1: George says he's in a fairly senior position in the company, 460 00:20:51,114 --> 00:20:53,593 Speaker 1: see this as an opportunity to look out for who 461 00:20:53,593 --> 00:20:55,913 Speaker 1: can take over his role in the future. I actually 462 00:20:55,913 --> 00:20:56,913 Speaker 1: think that the younger people 463 00:20:56,962 --> 00:20:59,831 Speaker 1: In the company would very much appreciate that, especially his 464 00:20:59,832 --> 00:21:00,322 Speaker 1: boss. 465 00:21:00,391 --> 00:21:03,712 Speaker 2: Yeah, Tiffany, that's absolutely correct. One of the important tasks 466 00:21:03,712 --> 00:21:06,952 Speaker 2: developmentally for an individual as they reach retirement age, right, 467 00:21:07,031 --> 00:21:09,900 Speaker 2: they often wonder, have I done what I needed to do? 468 00:21:10,311 --> 00:21:12,592 Speaker 2: Have I made the world a better place? Was my 469 00:21:12,592 --> 00:21:14,491 Speaker 2: life a total waste of time or did I really 470 00:21:14,491 --> 00:21:17,901 Speaker 2: contribute something, right? And mentoring somebody, building up somebody else, 471 00:21:18,112 --> 00:21:20,952 Speaker 2: it adds to leaving a legacy behind. So for them 472 00:21:20,952 --> 00:21:23,140 Speaker 2: to realize that they have supported a younger colleague. 473 00:21:23,339 --> 00:21:25,750 Speaker 2: Their career, maybe a couple of them, so that when 474 00:21:25,750 --> 00:21:27,739 Speaker 2: you take a step back from work in the future, 475 00:21:27,949 --> 00:21:29,869 Speaker 2: you realize that, hey, a part of you still stays 476 00:21:29,869 --> 00:21:32,430 Speaker 2: in the company, you know, and then it actually helps 477 00:21:32,430 --> 00:21:35,829 Speaker 2: the person's life. You made this young person's life better 478 00:21:35,829 --> 00:21:38,589 Speaker 2: because the person is now more confident, is able to 479 00:21:38,589 --> 00:21:40,979 Speaker 2: manage his family, her family, and lead in the company 480 00:21:40,979 --> 00:21:43,469 Speaker 2: as well. So all of this makes us just feel like, hey, 481 00:21:43,670 --> 00:21:45,180 Speaker 2: we lived a life that was quite meaningful. 482 00:21:45,829 --> 00:21:48,589 Speaker 1: I feel we're only just scratching the surface right here 483 00:21:48,589 --> 00:21:49,629 Speaker 1: because it sounds like. 484 00:21:49,839 --> 00:21:52,750 Speaker 1: There's so much more that we can unpack here, but 485 00:21:52,750 --> 00:21:54,859 Speaker 1: in the interest of time, maybe we could even come 486 00:21:54,859 --> 00:21:57,569 Speaker 1: back and do a bigger, a longer topic on this, 487 00:21:57,619 --> 00:22:00,780 Speaker 1: maybe invite someone on the show. George, if you are interested, 488 00:22:00,859 --> 00:22:01,859 Speaker 1: you come and join us, OK? 489 00:22:02,430 --> 00:22:05,030 Speaker 1: If like George, you have a work-related question, send it 490 00:22:05,030 --> 00:22:09,750 Speaker 1: to us. We are at CNA podcasts at Mediacorp.com.sg. We're 491 00:22:09,750 --> 00:22:13,829 Speaker 1: also on Spotify, Apple, and YouTube. The team behind the 492 00:22:13,829 --> 00:22:17,869 Speaker 1: Work It podcast is Christina Robert, Joanne Chan, Juanini Johari 493 00:22:17,869 --> 00:22:21,550 Speaker 1: and Sai Ye Win. Sound mixing by Cary Lim, video 494 00:22:21,550 --> 00:22:24,829 Speaker 1: by Hanida Amin. I'm Gerald and I'm Tiffany. Have a 495 00:22:24,829 --> 00:22:26,379 Speaker 1: super work week ahead.