1 00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Hello, work it, followers and listeners. It's incredible how time 2 00:00:03,490 --> 00:00:06,789 Speaker 1: flies and it's already December. The CN A podcast team 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,328 Speaker 1: takes the season break for this month. But we wanted 4 00:00:09,340 --> 00:00:12,908 Speaker 1: to resell face a few of our top performing episodes 5 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:15,510 Speaker 1: which you may have missed. We kick off with the 6 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:19,110 Speaker 1: number one on our list, both in terms of reach 7 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:21,819 Speaker 1: and engagement, which is our chat with D BC 8 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,530 Speaker 1: Gupta. I would say it was quite a highlight for 9 00:00:25,540 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: us too. Right, Adrian, we went to his office. He 10 00:00:28,610 --> 00:00:32,799 Speaker 1: was charming, open, honest, quite easy to talk to and 11 00:00:32,810 --> 00:00:35,099 Speaker 1: he also forced us to get out of our comfort zone. 12 00:00:35,110 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 1: It was really a wide ranging discussion and he also 13 00:00:37,848 --> 00:00:41,119 Speaker 1: spoke about his own journey as a banker, his guiding 14 00:00:41,130 --> 00:00:43,750 Speaker 1: principles when it comes to handling crisis. 15 00:00:44,168 --> 00:00:47,150 Speaker 1: And of course, you mustn't miss this what he thinks 16 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:50,529 Speaker 1: of work life balance. Yeah, that got quite a bit 17 00:00:50,540 --> 00:00:53,240 Speaker 1: of heat. So have a listen if you missed it 18 00:00:53,250 --> 00:00:57,349 Speaker 1: and share it with someone who hasn't listened to it 19 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,959 Speaker 1: to enjoy this episode. You're listening to AC N A podcast. 20 00:01:02,770 --> 00:01:04,830 Speaker 2: Can you do this without reading 21 00:01:05,750 --> 00:01:06,790 Speaker 2: both of you? Oh, 22 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:07,559 Speaker 1: without 23 00:01:07,569 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 2: reading let's say a wind down message, 24 00:01:12,580 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 2: you know what you want to say, what are the 25 00:01:16,169 --> 00:01:18,250 Speaker 2: two points I want to say, right? You say, you know, 26 00:01:18,730 --> 00:01:23,610 Speaker 2: this is if you got anything from and out of 27 00:01:23,669 --> 00:01:26,339 Speaker 2: all you want to say is we're going to take 28 00:01:26,349 --> 00:01:28,389 Speaker 2: a break and so on, right? Say to the 29 00:01:33,919 --> 00:01:36,819 Speaker 1: hello, everyone, welcome to this rather special episode of work. 30 00:01:36,830 --> 00:01:39,459 Speaker 1: It normally our guests come into the C and E studio, 31 00:01:39,470 --> 00:01:42,660 Speaker 1: but today we are on the 45th floor of the 32 00:01:42,669 --> 00:01:45,169 Speaker 1: Marina Bay Financial Center and I have to tell you 33 00:01:45,180 --> 00:01:48,860 Speaker 1: the view is quite insane. Hi listeners. It is Adrian. Yep. 34 00:01:48,870 --> 00:01:51,620 Speaker 1: This building is home to D BS Bank. And our 35 00:01:51,629 --> 00:01:55,019 Speaker 1: guest today is the CEO himself, Mr Piush Gupta who 36 00:01:55,029 --> 00:01:56,699 Speaker 1: frankly needs no introduction. 37 00:01:57,110 --> 00:01:59,639 Speaker 1: He takes the seat in our special series called the 38 00:01:59,650 --> 00:02:03,019 Speaker 1: Leader's Chair. Even if we list his resume, I can 39 00:02:03,029 --> 00:02:05,089 Speaker 1: tell you it will be far too long. You only 40 00:02:05,099 --> 00:02:07,500 Speaker 1: need to know two things. He's been with the DBS 41 00:02:07,510 --> 00:02:09,850 Speaker 1: group for 13 years now. That's correct. 42 00:02:10,127 --> 00:02:14,259 Speaker 1: And he's been with Citigroup for 27 years. He and 43 00:02:14,268 --> 00:02:17,069 Speaker 1: the bank have won a clutch of awards. Ok. So 44 00:02:17,078 --> 00:02:19,688 Speaker 1: that's more than two things. But Pius was one of 45 00:02:19,699 --> 00:02:23,928 Speaker 1: the world's top 100 best performing chief executives in the 46 00:02:23,938 --> 00:02:28,718 Speaker 1: Harvard Business Review, 2019 edition of the CEO 100. It's 47 00:02:28,729 --> 00:02:32,029 Speaker 1: an absolute pleasure to have you on our podcast. Welcome. 48 00:02:32,518 --> 00:02:34,448 Speaker 2: Thank you, Christine. I would have been happy to come 49 00:02:34,458 --> 00:02:35,138 Speaker 2: to your studio. 50 00:02:35,229 --> 00:02:36,990 Speaker 2: But I have to confess the view from here is 51 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:37,630 Speaker 2: nicer than 52 00:02:39,538 --> 00:02:42,570 Speaker 1: me. We always start with the question about journey. So 53 00:02:42,580 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: you are 63 now and you've been banking for almost 54 00:02:46,729 --> 00:02:49,970 Speaker 1: all your life. So looking back, was it something that 55 00:02:50,029 --> 00:02:52,660 Speaker 1: it was by accident or was it something that when 56 00:02:52,669 --> 00:02:54,990 Speaker 1: your parents tell you? Oh, you know, you should try 57 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,789 Speaker 1: to consider becoming a banker. And you said yes, of course. 58 00:02:58,100 --> 00:03:00,239 Speaker 2: I've said this before, Adrian, 59 00:03:00,619 --> 00:03:04,239 Speaker 2: I've called myself an accidental banker. I had no plans 60 00:03:04,250 --> 00:03:08,070 Speaker 2: to be a banker. My agenda was to become a diplomat. 61 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,190 Speaker 2: I wanted to join the foreign service, travel and see 62 00:03:11,199 --> 00:03:13,579 Speaker 2: the world and be a diplomat. And the reason for 63 00:03:13,589 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 2: that is that like many other people who are in 64 00:03:16,729 --> 00:03:20,740 Speaker 2: leadership positions of Indian origin around the world, I was 65 00:03:20,750 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 2: the child of a bureaucrat and so many people who 66 00:03:25,970 --> 00:03:29,199 Speaker 2: came from middle class families and bureaucratic backgrounds 67 00:03:29,550 --> 00:03:33,639 Speaker 2: used to set their ambitions on continue to join the bureaucracy. 68 00:03:34,059 --> 00:03:36,429 Speaker 2: In my case, I wanted to join the Foreign Service 69 00:03:36,649 --> 00:03:38,839 Speaker 2: as things happen to join the foreign service, you have 70 00:03:38,850 --> 00:03:41,449 Speaker 2: to take an entrance exam and you need it to 71 00:03:41,460 --> 00:03:44,820 Speaker 2: be a minimum age 21 to take the exam. 72 00:03:45,050 --> 00:03:48,270 Speaker 2: When I cleared my undergrad, I was only 20. So 73 00:03:48,279 --> 00:03:51,039 Speaker 2: I had a year to kill and I decided to 74 00:03:51,050 --> 00:03:53,809 Speaker 2: go get an MB A. So if I didn't qualify, 75 00:03:53,820 --> 00:03:57,039 Speaker 2: I'd have something to fall back on. And in the 76 00:03:57,050 --> 00:04:01,110 Speaker 2: course of my MBA, I realized that there were other vistas, 77 00:04:01,119 --> 00:04:05,309 Speaker 2: other things you could do and potentially still achieve my 78 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:08,059 Speaker 2: objective of seeing the world. So to cut a long 79 00:04:08,070 --> 00:04:10,380 Speaker 2: story short, I was given an offer by Citibank. 80 00:04:10,830 --> 00:04:14,020 Speaker 2: And I thought, you know what, let's you travel overseas, 81 00:04:14,029 --> 00:04:17,970 Speaker 2: they phase you well, why not try this instead of, 82 00:04:17,980 --> 00:04:20,179 Speaker 2: you know, going and being a diplomat? Now, I'll tell 83 00:04:20,190 --> 00:04:21,540 Speaker 2: you the interesting part of the story 84 00:04:21,910 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 2: when I made the decision, my father actually flew down 85 00:04:25,488 --> 00:04:28,730 Speaker 2: to where I was to try and persuade me not 86 00:04:28,738 --> 00:04:31,130 Speaker 2: to take the decision. Oh, wow. He said, oh, you 87 00:04:31,140 --> 00:04:34,459 Speaker 2: don't realize how good it is to be bureaucrat, an 88 00:04:34,470 --> 00:04:37,928 Speaker 2: administrative officer, you can make a big impact, etcetera, etcetera. 89 00:04:37,940 --> 00:04:40,940 Speaker 2: And honestly, my response to him wasn't very thoughtful because 90 00:04:40,950 --> 00:04:43,519 Speaker 2: I told him, you know, dad, forget everything I get 91 00:04:43,529 --> 00:04:44,118 Speaker 2: paid more 92 00:04:44,209 --> 00:04:46,339 Speaker 2: in my first salary that you make at the end 93 00:04:46,350 --> 00:04:49,029 Speaker 2: of your career. So it's a very different life in 94 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,369 Speaker 2: the private sector, but you are right. I mean, competition matters. 95 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:56,368 Speaker 2: But in reality, I fell in love with the job. 96 00:04:56,380 --> 00:04:59,089 Speaker 2: I realized within three or four months that the job 97 00:04:59,100 --> 00:05:01,339 Speaker 2: was made for me, you know, banking, a lot of 98 00:05:01,350 --> 00:05:03,290 Speaker 2: people think it's a finance job, it's really not a 99 00:05:03,299 --> 00:05:06,349 Speaker 2: finance job. Banking is the general management job. 100 00:05:06,850 --> 00:05:10,390 Speaker 2: And my skill set actually is very well aligned to 101 00:05:10,399 --> 00:05:12,849 Speaker 2: what it takes to be a good banker, 102 00:05:12,859 --> 00:05:14,709 Speaker 1: right? Because it's people facing, right 103 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:18,609 Speaker 2: people facing. But you got to bring together a sense of, 104 00:05:18,619 --> 00:05:22,488 Speaker 2: you know, big picture thinking. So strategic skills, you got 105 00:05:22,500 --> 00:05:24,630 Speaker 2: to bring an analytical brain, 106 00:05:24,970 --> 00:05:28,359 Speaker 2: you got to be good with people and eq you 107 00:05:28,369 --> 00:05:31,659 Speaker 2: got to be willing to be eclectic in your interest, 108 00:05:31,670 --> 00:05:34,609 Speaker 2: which I've always been. So I realized very quickly that 109 00:05:34,619 --> 00:05:37,220 Speaker 2: this is a fantastic area and I could really make 110 00:05:37,230 --> 00:05:37,869 Speaker 2: a difference in that 111 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:40,549 Speaker 1: area. Was there a pivotal moment in that 3 to 112 00:05:40,559 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: 4 months mark that tell you, this is really the 113 00:05:42,769 --> 00:05:42,950 Speaker 1: right 114 00:05:42,959 --> 00:05:46,450 Speaker 2: thing. It's ironic we all got sent to the Philippines 115 00:05:46,459 --> 00:05:50,149 Speaker 2: for our first trainings and it was a 46 week 116 00:05:50,160 --> 00:05:50,709 Speaker 2: program 117 00:05:51,209 --> 00:05:54,220 Speaker 2: and they brought in people from all around Asia. So 118 00:05:54,230 --> 00:05:57,670 Speaker 2: from Japan, Australia, Singapore, et cetera, there are about 50 119 00:05:57,678 --> 00:06:01,459 Speaker 2: people in the class and I topped that whole class. 120 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,399 Speaker 2: And after I topped the class, I figured maybe I'm 121 00:06:03,410 --> 00:06:04,149 Speaker 2: good at this. 122 00:06:05,470 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: Ok. There was a sign that's the sign, right? If 123 00:06:08,649 --> 00:06:11,589 Speaker 1: ever there was a sign. Ok, let me get your 124 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: take on banking and a bit more specifically to Singapore. 125 00:06:15,019 --> 00:06:19,010 Speaker 1: I'm AD BS customer, your customers are from like 126 00:06:19,529 --> 00:06:22,730 Speaker 2: all the way. Thank you for being AD BS customer. 127 00:06:23,230 --> 00:06:26,660 Speaker 1: I myself have seen the kind of the change, right? 128 00:06:26,809 --> 00:06:30,089 Speaker 1: I've not been into a physical bank must be like 129 00:06:30,100 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: a year now. 130 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:35,660 Speaker 1: I've read about your efforts to transform in terms of 131 00:06:35,670 --> 00:06:40,959 Speaker 1: the tech in terms of reskilling the people that's change management. 132 00:06:40,970 --> 00:06:44,399 Speaker 1: And we read about certain industries that's not easy to 133 00:06:44,410 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 1: do if you could distill it. What did you learn 134 00:06:47,049 --> 00:06:48,890 Speaker 1: from change? 135 00:06:50,390 --> 00:06:54,420 Speaker 2: You thrown about six questions. One question. But let me 136 00:06:54,589 --> 00:06:57,669 Speaker 2: touch on some elements of where you were going. First 137 00:06:57,678 --> 00:06:58,059 Speaker 2: of all, 138 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,099 Speaker 2: I think it's quite clear that the way we all live, 139 00:07:01,109 --> 00:07:03,450 Speaker 2: our lives has changed in the last decade. It's not 140 00:07:03,459 --> 00:07:06,779 Speaker 2: just banking the way you book your movie tickets, the 141 00:07:06,790 --> 00:07:10,049 Speaker 2: way you book your travel, the way you make a 142 00:07:10,059 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 2: selection and choices for consumer purchase, the way you do 143 00:07:13,209 --> 00:07:16,410 Speaker 2: your shopping, everything has changed. And so you've got to 144 00:07:16,420 --> 00:07:20,459 Speaker 2: recognize that technology is changing the way consumers buy, consumers 145 00:07:20,470 --> 00:07:22,019 Speaker 2: compare and consumers live. 146 00:07:22,470 --> 00:07:25,170 Speaker 2: And therefore, if you're going to be successful as a company, 147 00:07:25,179 --> 00:07:27,799 Speaker 2: as a provider of services, you have to cater to 148 00:07:27,809 --> 00:07:31,179 Speaker 2: that change. So the first principle of any change is this, 149 00:07:31,190 --> 00:07:34,959 Speaker 2: you've got to recognize that change is an imperative. People 150 00:07:34,970 --> 00:07:37,070 Speaker 2: often call it the burning platform. So how do you 151 00:07:37,079 --> 00:07:39,929 Speaker 2: create a burning platform? And to me, this is the 152 00:07:39,940 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 2: first big learning. If you don't have a burning platform 153 00:07:42,329 --> 00:07:45,850 Speaker 2: and a compelling story, a narrative of why change is critical. 154 00:07:45,859 --> 00:07:48,690 Speaker 2: You will not get everybody aligned to the change. OK. 155 00:07:49,359 --> 00:07:52,679 Speaker 2: The second element to the changes, most things are not 156 00:07:52,690 --> 00:07:56,859 Speaker 2: brand new invented, you can learn from copying others. So 157 00:07:56,869 --> 00:08:00,190 Speaker 2: I copy shamelessly. And so we started our journey, we 158 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,859 Speaker 2: went and studied all the big tech companies we figured 159 00:08:02,869 --> 00:08:05,010 Speaker 2: and said, you know, how does Amazon do it and 160 00:08:05,019 --> 00:08:07,369 Speaker 2: how does Google do it and how does Alibaba do it? 161 00:08:07,679 --> 00:08:09,570 Speaker 2: And we learned a lot of things from them, which 162 00:08:09,579 --> 00:08:11,529 Speaker 2: was very different from how a bank did it. In 163 00:08:11,540 --> 00:08:15,489 Speaker 2: the past, we learned that you could acquire customers completely digitally. 164 00:08:15,500 --> 00:08:17,970 Speaker 2: We learned that you could eliminate paper and do everything 165 00:08:17,980 --> 00:08:20,489 Speaker 2: at the touch of a button. We learned the power 166 00:08:20,500 --> 00:08:23,940 Speaker 2: of data, we learned the power of partnerships and ecosystems. 167 00:08:24,369 --> 00:08:28,059 Speaker 2: And so we figured and found a set of directions 168 00:08:28,209 --> 00:08:31,230 Speaker 2: that we could take, right? But beyond that, I think 169 00:08:31,239 --> 00:08:33,728 Speaker 2: there were two or three things which are critical to 170 00:08:33,739 --> 00:08:36,140 Speaker 2: chain management. And I've said this before. 171 00:08:36,580 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 2: The first is how do you get organizational alignment and 172 00:08:40,969 --> 00:08:41,559 Speaker 2: commitment 173 00:08:41,570 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: so that you guys know very clearly what you want 174 00:08:44,969 --> 00:08:48,130 Speaker 1: to do and the platform is burning. So you're clear. 175 00:08:48,390 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: But how do you get all these people to follow you? 176 00:08:50,580 --> 00:08:53,039 Speaker 2: So you got to be a good storyteller and paint 177 00:08:53,049 --> 00:08:55,090 Speaker 2: the narrative and then you got to be able to 178 00:08:55,099 --> 00:08:58,179 Speaker 2: walk the talk. OK. So my cio when we started 179 00:08:58,190 --> 00:09:00,559 Speaker 2: Dave Glad Hill, he came up with this mic of 180 00:09:00,570 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 2: Gandalf 181 00:09:01,940 --> 00:09:05,439 Speaker 2: in those days, everybody called the big tech companies, the Fangs, 182 00:09:05,450 --> 00:09:08,479 Speaker 2: you know, Facebook, Amazon. And so on, he one day 183 00:09:08,489 --> 00:09:11,020 Speaker 2: had this brilliant brain wave thing that you could actually 184 00:09:11,030 --> 00:09:16,329 Speaker 2: rewrite that Fangs and call it Google Apple Netflix, Linkedin Amazon, Facebook, 185 00:09:16,619 --> 00:09:19,989 Speaker 2: and it's missing ad. And if you put ad it 186 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,449 Speaker 2: becomes the wizard from Lord of the Rings. So he 187 00:09:23,460 --> 00:09:26,010 Speaker 2: came up with this program about D BS can be 188 00:09:26,020 --> 00:09:27,309 Speaker 2: the D in Gandalf. 189 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,210 Speaker 2: Now, this is important because it changed our reference point. 190 00:09:31,479 --> 00:09:33,900 Speaker 2: And so for all of our people, it made it 191 00:09:33,909 --> 00:09:36,239 Speaker 2: clear that our reference point was no longer going to 192 00:09:36,250 --> 00:09:38,890 Speaker 2: be the other bank companies. Our reference point was going 193 00:09:38,900 --> 00:09:42,020 Speaker 2: to be how the technology companies operate. And this idea 194 00:09:42,030 --> 00:09:45,119 Speaker 2: of being the D and Gandalf, it really got resonance 195 00:09:45,179 --> 00:09:47,609 Speaker 2: in the people. It gave people something to aspire to. 196 00:09:47,619 --> 00:09:49,530 Speaker 1: Yeah, because they can see it is a lot of, 197 00:09:50,710 --> 00:09:52,459 Speaker 2: you know, we can do this, we can be it. 198 00:09:52,869 --> 00:09:55,150 Speaker 2: And that is the second big part of chain management. 199 00:09:55,159 --> 00:09:58,580 Speaker 2: I receive wisdom then and even now has always been 200 00:09:58,590 --> 00:10:01,299 Speaker 2: that it's very hard for old companies to change. You know, 201 00:10:01,309 --> 00:10:03,570 Speaker 2: it's very hard for old people to change. 202 00:10:04,190 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 2: And it is something that I've never believed. I figured 203 00:10:07,409 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 2: that you look at all the people in the forties 204 00:10:09,409 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 2: and fifties and sixties today, we are all changing in 205 00:10:12,010 --> 00:10:14,469 Speaker 2: our personal life. I started the podcast by telling you 206 00:10:14,479 --> 00:10:17,020 Speaker 2: that you're doing everything differently now. So when people can 207 00:10:17,030 --> 00:10:19,210 Speaker 2: change in their personal lives, then why do we think 208 00:10:19,219 --> 00:10:21,939 Speaker 2: they can't change in a company? And so I have 209 00:10:21,950 --> 00:10:23,809 Speaker 2: this big belief that the problem is not with the 210 00:10:23,820 --> 00:10:26,210 Speaker 2: human being. Ok. The problem is with the company. 211 00:10:26,609 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 2: And so if you create the conditions in the company 212 00:10:29,369 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 2: that allow people to experiment, to take some risk to 213 00:10:32,570 --> 00:10:36,570 Speaker 2: learn by doing, to innovate, people will do it. So 214 00:10:36,580 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 2: we came up with this big mantra, we called it 215 00:10:38,530 --> 00:10:42,710 Speaker 2: the 18,000 people start Up. And our big vision was 216 00:10:42,719 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 2: that we were not going to have two class 217 00:10:44,450 --> 00:10:47,239 Speaker 2: of citizens, one who are changing and one who are not. 218 00:10:47,419 --> 00:10:49,409 Speaker 2: We said we're going to take everybody on the journey. 219 00:10:49,419 --> 00:10:52,059 Speaker 2: But to do that, you have to teach people by 220 00:10:52,070 --> 00:10:55,039 Speaker 2: doing our learning is from doing. You got to give 221 00:10:55,049 --> 00:10:58,500 Speaker 2: them some latitude to make mistakes. You got to go 222 00:10:58,510 --> 00:11:01,250 Speaker 2: through the process of teaching people, you know how big 223 00:11:01,260 --> 00:11:02,309 Speaker 2: tech company operates. 224 00:11:02,650 --> 00:11:04,820 Speaker 2: And so we went through a whole journey. We have 225 00:11:04,830 --> 00:11:06,968 Speaker 2: to orchestrate a program of chain. I'm a big believer 226 00:11:06,979 --> 00:11:09,650 Speaker 2: in chain by design. So we orchestrated a whole program 227 00:11:09,659 --> 00:11:13,419 Speaker 2: for chain. We call making banking, joyful. And it was 228 00:11:13,429 --> 00:11:16,598 Speaker 2: I created a central transformation team to help me drive 229 00:11:16,609 --> 00:11:19,799 Speaker 2: the program. So it was a very studied change process, 230 00:11:19,809 --> 00:11:21,469 Speaker 2: not an accidental change process. 231 00:11:21,570 --> 00:11:25,330 Speaker 1: It was actually planned, executed thought through. And so that 232 00:11:25,340 --> 00:11:26,030 Speaker 1: makes it 233 00:11:26,116 --> 00:11:28,296 Speaker 1: a little bit more likely to be successful 234 00:11:28,325 --> 00:11:31,494 Speaker 2: and democratic. That's the key thing. It was participative, it 235 00:11:31,505 --> 00:11:35,325 Speaker 2: was not. And frankly to me, the biggest joy was 236 00:11:35,335 --> 00:11:38,835 Speaker 2: when I started figuring that this had caught fire at 237 00:11:38,846 --> 00:11:41,954 Speaker 2: the roots of the organization. Of my telling people or 238 00:11:41,966 --> 00:11:44,695 Speaker 2: the senior management telling people what needed to be done. 239 00:11:44,856 --> 00:11:47,445 Speaker 2: We started hearing stories from the bottom of what people 240 00:11:47,455 --> 00:11:49,306 Speaker 2: were trying to do and 241 00:11:49,651 --> 00:11:51,231 Speaker 2: it took us to the, but when we got there, 242 00:11:51,242 --> 00:11:52,622 Speaker 2: we knew we were on a road. So 243 00:11:52,631 --> 00:11:54,611 Speaker 1: then you knew you got the formula, 244 00:11:54,851 --> 00:11:55,562 Speaker 2: you got the formula 245 00:11:55,721 --> 00:11:58,021 Speaker 1: right? You mentioned about walking the talk so that you 246 00:11:58,030 --> 00:12:02,271 Speaker 1: can impress upon everyone that change is necessary and change 247 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,381 Speaker 1: is possible. Are there any intentional walking the talk that 248 00:12:05,392 --> 00:12:08,802 Speaker 1: the management or city management looked into to drive that across? 249 00:12:08,812 --> 00:12:11,531 Speaker 2: Well, we did many things. We were the first in 2014, 250 00:12:11,541 --> 00:12:15,580 Speaker 2: we started running hackathons. Hackathons were events where you'd have 251 00:12:15,591 --> 00:12:18,921 Speaker 2: about 13 DB staff and a couple of start up kids, 252 00:12:19,190 --> 00:12:21,929 Speaker 2: you put them together and you'd have like 15 teams 253 00:12:21,940 --> 00:12:24,809 Speaker 2: of the sort and you'd give them a week long 254 00:12:24,820 --> 00:12:28,409 Speaker 2: problem to solve and they had to learn how to storyboard. 255 00:12:28,419 --> 00:12:30,390 Speaker 2: They had to learn how to do journey thinking. They 256 00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,570 Speaker 2: had to, you know, try and figure out an app 257 00:12:32,580 --> 00:12:33,530 Speaker 2: to solve the problem 258 00:12:33,869 --> 00:12:36,479 Speaker 2: and the two kids would help them code the app alongside, 259 00:12:36,719 --> 00:12:39,929 Speaker 2: but the D BS senior team would be part of 260 00:12:39,940 --> 00:12:43,619 Speaker 2: these processes. And on Friday, the D BS senior team 261 00:12:43,630 --> 00:12:46,449 Speaker 2: would go and we evaluate how people had done whether 262 00:12:46,460 --> 00:12:48,710 Speaker 2: they had done the journey, what the outcomes were we 263 00:12:48,719 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 2: award and reward people. That's a way of making the 264 00:12:51,849 --> 00:12:54,239 Speaker 2: talk come alive. You know, so you got to be 265 00:12:54,250 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 2: able to do things like that. 266 00:12:56,070 --> 00:12:59,159 Speaker 1: And let's talk about challenges. Some people that I know 267 00:12:59,169 --> 00:13:02,010 Speaker 1: of seems to have this Roman size impression of the 268 00:13:02,020 --> 00:13:05,010 Speaker 1: CEO where things are nice and then they just give 269 00:13:05,020 --> 00:13:07,669 Speaker 1: instruction for Ivory Tower. But we also know there are 270 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: a lot of challenges when CEO can come under fire 271 00:13:10,289 --> 00:13:12,119 Speaker 1: and no one faces the heat more than a bank, 272 00:13:12,130 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: especially when things go south. So for 273 00:13:14,385 --> 00:13:16,694 Speaker 1: DBS, I guess the most obvious one would be when 274 00:13:16,705 --> 00:13:19,385 Speaker 1: there's a tech outage. When no app is down, people 275 00:13:19,395 --> 00:13:21,625 Speaker 1: cannot pay for stuff. I'm sure you got teams and 276 00:13:21,844 --> 00:13:23,744 Speaker 1: SOP s in place to deal with it. But for 277 00:13:23,755 --> 00:13:26,544 Speaker 1: you personally, what is it like? You walk us through 278 00:13:26,554 --> 00:13:28,364 Speaker 1: a day of those chaotic 279 00:13:28,375 --> 00:13:31,414 Speaker 2: moments, there are two or three things which are worth 280 00:13:31,424 --> 00:13:34,444 Speaker 2: touching on. First is this question of accountability. 281 00:13:34,849 --> 00:13:38,189 Speaker 2: I've always believed that to be a leader. You've got 282 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,039 Speaker 2: to have a big belief in what President Truman used 283 00:13:41,049 --> 00:13:44,130 Speaker 2: to have on his desk. The buck stops here. And 284 00:13:44,140 --> 00:13:47,010 Speaker 2: so the sense of accountability I think is quite important. 285 00:13:47,020 --> 00:13:49,669 Speaker 2: I tell young kids when people are looking for, what 286 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:51,630 Speaker 2: does it take to be a leader? I tell them 287 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,108 Speaker 2: individual accountability is the first thing I look for. So 288 00:13:55,119 --> 00:13:57,150 Speaker 2: you've got to figure at the end of the day, 289 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:58,468 Speaker 2: the buck stops with you 290 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,580 Speaker 2: and you're right. So that creates its own set of 291 00:14:01,590 --> 00:14:04,608 Speaker 2: pressures and challenges because it doesn't matter what the nature 292 00:14:04,619 --> 00:14:07,140 Speaker 2: of the problem is. As the CEO of the company, 293 00:14:07,150 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 2: I'm accountable. I personalize that and whether the problem was 294 00:14:10,890 --> 00:14:13,340 Speaker 2: with the third party provider or the problem was with 295 00:14:13,349 --> 00:14:16,900 Speaker 2: the errant employee or it was just an accident. Finally, 296 00:14:16,909 --> 00:14:20,059 Speaker 2: as far as the consumer is concerned, the customer is concerned, 297 00:14:20,130 --> 00:14:21,799 Speaker 2: I'm the CEO of the bank. So I've got to 298 00:14:21,809 --> 00:14:24,609 Speaker 2: fix it. And so this is the first facet. I, 299 00:14:24,619 --> 00:14:27,260 Speaker 2: I do take personal accountability. 300 00:14:27,539 --> 00:14:30,390 Speaker 2: The second facet is this people do things differently. My 301 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,369 Speaker 2: management style is people have called it the helicopter style. 302 00:14:33,580 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 2: So I can be very big picture. But I also 303 00:14:36,210 --> 00:14:38,570 Speaker 2: roll up my sleeves and get into the details. I 304 00:14:38,580 --> 00:14:39,599 Speaker 2: get into the weeds 305 00:14:39,940 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 2: and therefore, you know, every year I have eight or 306 00:14:43,090 --> 00:14:45,340 Speaker 2: 10 projects which I personally drive. So I roll up 307 00:14:45,349 --> 00:14:49,309 Speaker 2: my sleeves and get deep down into those a challenge 308 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,020 Speaker 2: of the sort I mentioning would be one of those. 309 00:14:52,030 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 2: It is not a planned project. But if it's an 310 00:14:54,450 --> 00:14:58,030 Speaker 2: important enough thing, then I will try to get under 311 00:14:58,039 --> 00:15:01,020 Speaker 2: the hood to make sure I understand what the issue is. 312 00:15:01,030 --> 00:15:03,950 Speaker 2: We properly organized around it. We know how to fix it, 313 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:04,710 Speaker 2: et cetera. 314 00:15:05,349 --> 00:15:07,979 Speaker 2: Well, the third part of the challenge is, is the hardest. 315 00:15:08,070 --> 00:15:10,719 Speaker 2: How do you give people the sense of urgency? But 316 00:15:10,729 --> 00:15:12,419 Speaker 2: at the same time, how do you give them air 317 00:15:12,429 --> 00:15:16,169 Speaker 2: cover and confidence to not lose hope. It's very easy 318 00:15:16,179 --> 00:15:19,260 Speaker 2: to start beating up on people. And frankly, that's a 319 00:15:19,270 --> 00:15:22,169 Speaker 2: lot of companies and environments have their culture. It's a 320 00:15:22,179 --> 00:15:24,729 Speaker 2: blame culture. The minute you start beating up, 321 00:15:24,830 --> 00:15:28,390 Speaker 2: people can create blame, then you start getting bad outcomes 322 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:32,229 Speaker 2: because it makes people fearful and it makes people fearful. 323 00:15:32,239 --> 00:15:33,940 Speaker 2: They won't do what you want them to do in 324 00:15:33,950 --> 00:15:37,909 Speaker 2: the future, which is use their brains, exercise judgment and 325 00:15:37,919 --> 00:15:38,789 Speaker 2: do things and 326 00:15:38,799 --> 00:15:41,849 Speaker 1: to do it authentically, right, without you telling them 327 00:15:41,859 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 2: correct. So you don't want to compromise on that. But 328 00:15:44,770 --> 00:15:46,849 Speaker 2: at the same time, you also want to make sure 329 00:15:46,859 --> 00:15:49,729 Speaker 2: that people understand that there's a sense of urgency, 330 00:15:49,979 --> 00:15:52,690 Speaker 2: the problems need to get fixed and if there was 331 00:15:52,700 --> 00:15:56,830 Speaker 2: some root cause weaknesses, that those root cause weaknesses are addressed. So, 332 00:15:56,929 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 2: so you have to make sure that other people other 333 00:15:59,010 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 2: than you also feel accountable for stuff. And that's always 334 00:16:02,090 --> 00:16:05,299 Speaker 2: the challenge, the balance between making sure there is accountability. 335 00:16:05,340 --> 00:16:07,559 Speaker 2: But at the same time, you provide enough air cover 336 00:16:07,570 --> 00:16:10,119 Speaker 2: to not be and dissipate confidence 337 00:16:10,130 --> 00:16:11,750 Speaker 1: in the team. But it must be hard. I just 338 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:13,159 Speaker 1: want to pick up on the point where you say 339 00:16:13,169 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: it's personal to you, right? 340 00:16:14,729 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: I've heard this so many times when something happens and 341 00:16:17,770 --> 00:16:19,570 Speaker 1: then you get taken to task for it and then 342 00:16:19,580 --> 00:16:22,909 Speaker 1: the person says it's work, it's not personal, but I 343 00:16:22,919 --> 00:16:27,789 Speaker 1: always feel like it's always personal because work is such 344 00:16:27,799 --> 00:16:29,719 Speaker 1: an important part of your life. I would 345 00:16:29,729 --> 00:16:31,739 Speaker 2: agree with that. I am a big believer in the 346 00:16:31,750 --> 00:16:35,059 Speaker 2: fact that work life balance is all baloney and there is, 347 00:16:35,070 --> 00:16:39,390 Speaker 2: I think, well, it's baloney. Not because I want people 348 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,190 Speaker 2: to work all the time. It's not like that. I'm 349 00:16:41,219 --> 00:16:43,229 Speaker 2: very eclectic and have a lot of time for things 350 00:16:43,239 --> 00:16:43,669 Speaker 2: I do. 351 00:16:43,940 --> 00:16:45,799 Speaker 2: It's just that I believe that work is a part 352 00:16:45,809 --> 00:16:49,390 Speaker 2: of life. Right. So how do you divorce work from 353 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 2: life with all of us. We spend 8, 10 hours working. 354 00:16:52,969 --> 00:16:55,710 Speaker 2: Your friends. Are there your colleagues? Are there your impact? 355 00:16:55,719 --> 00:16:57,630 Speaker 2: Is there your growth? Is there your income? Is there? 356 00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 2: How do you divorce that from life? And therefore this 357 00:17:00,770 --> 00:17:03,719 Speaker 2: notion that something is personal and some are not easy 358 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,219 Speaker 2: for me. I've always believed that you've got to be friends, 359 00:17:06,229 --> 00:17:08,189 Speaker 2: you've got to be able to make sure people feel 360 00:17:08,199 --> 00:17:10,060 Speaker 2: like they're part of a family. You got to make 361 00:17:10,069 --> 00:17:13,349 Speaker 2: sure the emotional environment is one of being together and 362 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,079 Speaker 2: being one. And if you can achieve that, you get 363 00:17:16,089 --> 00:17:17,889 Speaker 2: really extraordinary work outcomes. 364 00:17:18,030 --> 00:17:20,339 Speaker 1: OK? Expanding on this idea of setbacks. You've talked about 365 00:17:20,349 --> 00:17:22,939 Speaker 1: this before. You try to be an entrepreneur, 366 00:17:23,198 --> 00:17:25,999 Speaker 1: didn't work out and you've been open, you said that, 367 00:17:26,009 --> 00:17:28,269 Speaker 1: oh my God, it took a terrible toll. You know, 368 00:17:28,279 --> 00:17:30,448 Speaker 1: because you were worried about the 100 people that didn't 369 00:17:30,458 --> 00:17:33,177 Speaker 1: have a job. What did that teach you about leadership? 370 00:17:33,388 --> 00:17:37,739 Speaker 2: You know, interestingly, it changed my leadership style in two ways. 371 00:17:37,749 --> 00:17:41,058 Speaker 2: The first thing, my appetite for risk changed. 372 00:17:41,959 --> 00:17:45,250 Speaker 2: And that's a really important lesson. You know, what had happened. 373 00:17:45,479 --> 00:17:47,949 Speaker 2: I used to be doing well at Citibank. I was 374 00:17:47,959 --> 00:17:50,849 Speaker 2: the head of Citibank in Indonesia. I had given all 375 00:17:50,859 --> 00:17:54,149 Speaker 2: that up. I had taken my wife, my two young kids. 376 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,069 Speaker 2: We've gone and move back to India to set up 377 00:17:56,079 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 2: this.com and it didn't work. And by the way, at 378 00:17:58,930 --> 00:18:02,718 Speaker 2: the same time, what savings I had melted because of 379 00:18:02,729 --> 00:18:06,239 Speaker 2: the.com bust, right. So the.com bubble, yeah, so the bubble 380 00:18:06,250 --> 00:18:08,319 Speaker 2: had burst. And so what do I thought I saved 381 00:18:08,329 --> 00:18:08,589 Speaker 2: a hand? 382 00:18:09,310 --> 00:18:11,479 Speaker 2: Now, when you see the bottom of the barrel, which 383 00:18:11,489 --> 00:18:13,790 Speaker 2: is what I thought I was seeing, it changes the 384 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:16,430 Speaker 2: outlook at how bad can it get? You've already seen 385 00:18:16,439 --> 00:18:19,699 Speaker 2: the worst, then, you know, going forward, you know, it 386 00:18:19,709 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 2: can only get better. And so it changes your appetite 387 00:18:22,530 --> 00:18:25,010 Speaker 2: to take risks. You've already taken so much risk and 388 00:18:25,020 --> 00:18:27,270 Speaker 2: you survive. In which case, you can figure out how 389 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:28,130 Speaker 2: you take some more risk. 390 00:18:28,449 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 2: And, but that's really important because at the end of 391 00:18:31,410 --> 00:18:34,670 Speaker 2: the day, the change is so rapid and change is accelerating. 392 00:18:34,839 --> 00:18:38,869 Speaker 2: And so without making some bets without taking some moonshots, 393 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,469 Speaker 2: without taking some risks, you're not going to succeed. So 394 00:18:41,670 --> 00:18:43,459 Speaker 2: that was my one big learning. It changed my attitude 395 00:18:43,469 --> 00:18:48,010 Speaker 2: to risk, but perhaps the more important and pertinent thing 396 00:18:48,020 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 2: that it changed was my intent. 397 00:18:51,859 --> 00:18:55,688 Speaker 2: So I've said this before too, in my twenties and 398 00:18:55,699 --> 00:18:58,010 Speaker 2: thirties and after I figured I was good at banking, 399 00:18:58,270 --> 00:19:02,260 Speaker 2: like many others. Building my career was probably my single 400 00:19:02,270 --> 00:19:04,959 Speaker 2: biggest driver, you know. So it was, how do I 401 00:19:04,969 --> 00:19:08,479 Speaker 2: make sure that I can get ahead? I get promoted. 402 00:19:08,489 --> 00:19:11,430 Speaker 2: I get a bigger job. I become the youngest MD. 403 00:19:11,439 --> 00:19:13,540 Speaker 2: It is all driven around, you know. How do you 404 00:19:13,550 --> 00:19:17,530 Speaker 2: build a career and get to the top? Yeah. When 405 00:19:17,540 --> 00:19:21,219 Speaker 2: I went through this mental anguish after the.com failed, 406 00:19:21,510 --> 00:19:24,170 Speaker 2: I spent a long time actually with a very different 407 00:19:24,180 --> 00:19:27,599 Speaker 2: prison trying to figure out what makes me enjoy life. 408 00:19:27,609 --> 00:19:30,150 Speaker 2: What do I enjoy doing? Right. And the reason I 409 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,579 Speaker 2: came back to banking was no longer because I thought 410 00:19:32,589 --> 00:19:35,079 Speaker 2: I could build a career. I came back to banking 411 00:19:35,089 --> 00:19:38,069 Speaker 2: because I figured this is a subject I know. Well, 412 00:19:38,229 --> 00:19:41,829 Speaker 2: I enjoy it. I think I can make impact. And 413 00:19:41,839 --> 00:19:43,629 Speaker 2: if I had to do this for the next 15 414 00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:45,250 Speaker 2: years of my life, it would be a fun thing 415 00:19:45,260 --> 00:19:47,959 Speaker 2: to do. So I came back with a very different mindset, 416 00:19:47,969 --> 00:19:49,790 Speaker 2: a mindset of making impact 417 00:19:50,060 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 2: rather and relevance as opposed to career building. 418 00:19:53,180 --> 00:19:56,319 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. There's this book called Skin In The Game. 419 00:19:56,329 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: I'm not sure if you've heard of it. The author 420 00:19:58,930 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 1: argues that someone with skin in the game was basically 421 00:20:02,689 --> 00:20:07,290 Speaker 1: entrepreneurs shape how people lead and how people are led. 422 00:20:07,420 --> 00:20:07,670 Speaker 1: So I, 423 00:20:07,775 --> 00:20:10,375 Speaker 1: I think that kind of speaks your experience as well. 424 00:20:10,385 --> 00:20:10,974 Speaker 1: The shade 425 00:20:10,984 --> 00:20:13,354 Speaker 2: of a difference. Christina, I think when I talk about 426 00:20:13,364 --> 00:20:17,944 Speaker 2: accountability in the beginning, I've always had that. So even 427 00:20:17,954 --> 00:20:20,415 Speaker 2: in earlier jobs and I always felt I had skin 428 00:20:20,425 --> 00:20:22,125 Speaker 2: in the game, but the skin in the game was 429 00:20:22,135 --> 00:20:23,814 Speaker 2: a different skin. It was, how do I get ahead 430 00:20:23,824 --> 00:20:25,395 Speaker 2: if I do this? Well, I'll get progress, 431 00:20:25,930 --> 00:20:28,579 Speaker 2: the nature of the skin change. It was more, if 432 00:20:28,589 --> 00:20:30,900 Speaker 2: I can make a difference, I can make impact if 433 00:20:30,910 --> 00:20:33,300 Speaker 2: I can leave the job or the customer or the 434 00:20:33,310 --> 00:20:36,050 Speaker 2: business better than what I inherited. That's a good thing. 435 00:20:36,060 --> 00:20:39,219 Speaker 1: I feel like that comes with a bit more experience 436 00:20:39,229 --> 00:20:41,810 Speaker 1: like young people, they are just ambitious. They want to 437 00:20:41,819 --> 00:20:43,889 Speaker 1: get to the top. And I think that's ok 438 00:20:43,900 --> 00:20:46,250 Speaker 2: too because I agree with you. If you talk to 439 00:20:46,260 --> 00:20:48,859 Speaker 2: any Gen Z today, they don't want to get to the, 440 00:20:49,155 --> 00:20:51,974 Speaker 2: to get to the top. They all want to make impact. 441 00:20:51,984 --> 00:20:56,015 Speaker 2: So they start frankly, they might change. I'm not sure 442 00:20:56,025 --> 00:20:57,974 Speaker 2: how long they'll stay. When I was growing up in 443 00:20:57,984 --> 00:21:01,514 Speaker 2: the 19 sixties and seventies, the hippie movement was very similar. 444 00:21:02,104 --> 00:21:04,853 Speaker 2: Nobody wanted to get to the top and they all 445 00:21:04,864 --> 00:21:06,774 Speaker 2: wanted to make sure they made a difference, which is 446 00:21:06,785 --> 00:21:09,574 Speaker 2: very good. But by the time you got to 1980 447 00:21:09,584 --> 00:21:12,284 Speaker 2: all those people had joined and got onto the treadmill. 448 00:21:12,630 --> 00:21:16,010 Speaker 2: So the question is, are these cycles and do people 449 00:21:16,020 --> 00:21:19,089 Speaker 2: eventually get to a stage where, you know, who is it? 450 00:21:19,099 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 2: Who said that when you're young? If you're not a 451 00:21:22,050 --> 00:21:24,369 Speaker 2: left winger, you don't have a heart by the time 452 00:21:24,380 --> 00:21:26,199 Speaker 2: you're in your thirties, if you're not a capitalist, you 453 00:21:26,209 --> 00:21:27,050 Speaker 2: don't have a brain. 454 00:21:27,949 --> 00:21:29,050 Speaker 1: So having gone through that 455 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 1: bottom of the barrel moment, how do you think it 456 00:21:32,130 --> 00:21:36,900 Speaker 1: shaped and transform the way you approach leadership over in 457 00:21:36,910 --> 00:21:40,619 Speaker 1: DBS Bank versus how you approach things in Citibank? There's 458 00:21:40,630 --> 00:21:42,459 Speaker 1: some very obvious contrast. 459 00:21:42,469 --> 00:21:46,339 Speaker 2: It actually wasn't that much that experience honestly. But my 460 00:21:46,349 --> 00:21:51,139 Speaker 2: leadership style has evolved and it has been driven more 461 00:21:51,150 --> 00:21:56,238 Speaker 2: from an appreciation of technology and an appreciation of what 462 00:21:56,250 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 2: I told about the millennials and Gen Z 463 00:21:58,339 --> 00:22:00,959 Speaker 2: and how they would like to work and be managed. 464 00:22:01,239 --> 00:22:04,189 Speaker 2: What's happened is that the old way of managing, which 465 00:22:04,199 --> 00:22:07,859 Speaker 2: is really top down and hierarchical style of management. It 466 00:22:07,869 --> 00:22:11,890 Speaker 2: has its roots in the early late 19th century when 467 00:22:11,900 --> 00:22:15,469 Speaker 2: Max Weber created this concept of a bureaucracy. When Henry 468 00:22:15,479 --> 00:22:17,669 Speaker 2: Ford was creating the assembly line, he was trying to 469 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,109 Speaker 2: create the right organization to match the assembly line. And 470 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 2: so that perpetuated for 100 years and 471 00:22:23,410 --> 00:22:26,889 Speaker 2: it created the power of middle management because knowledge was 472 00:22:26,900 --> 00:22:29,948 Speaker 2: a premium. People who knew what to do were important. 473 00:22:30,199 --> 00:22:32,229 Speaker 2: And then you told the people at the bottom of 474 00:22:32,239 --> 00:22:34,770 Speaker 2: the pyramid, this is what you need to do. Well, 475 00:22:34,780 --> 00:22:38,060 Speaker 2: what's happening with technology first is that knowledge is no 476 00:22:38,069 --> 00:22:38,869 Speaker 2: longer a premium. 477 00:22:39,099 --> 00:22:42,020 Speaker 2: You can Google anything you want. And therefore, as long 478 00:22:42,030 --> 00:22:44,219 Speaker 2: as you can connect the dots, you know, you can 479 00:22:44,229 --> 00:22:46,530 Speaker 2: Google it, you know exactly what anybody has done. So 480 00:22:46,540 --> 00:22:49,050 Speaker 2: you got to recognize that there's been a shift. Yeah. 481 00:22:49,060 --> 00:22:51,810 Speaker 2: Human memory is not that important anymore because you can 482 00:22:51,819 --> 00:22:53,869 Speaker 2: go find out as long as you know what to 483 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:57,300 Speaker 2: look for. The second change that's happened is what we 484 00:22:57,310 --> 00:22:59,819 Speaker 2: were just talking about Chris, you know, the younger kids 485 00:22:59,829 --> 00:23:03,079 Speaker 2: do want to make impact sooner and I've seen that 486 00:23:03,089 --> 00:23:04,079 Speaker 2: they can multitask 487 00:23:04,609 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 2: and you talk to most of these kids, they want 488 00:23:06,369 --> 00:23:08,849 Speaker 2: to be co when they start. But I sometimes joke. 489 00:23:08,859 --> 00:23:10,300 Speaker 2: But at the same time, the truth is they do 490 00:23:10,310 --> 00:23:11,979 Speaker 2: want to make impact. They don't want to be small 491 00:23:11,989 --> 00:23:12,579 Speaker 2: cogs in the 492 00:23:12,589 --> 00:23:14,948 Speaker 1: wheel. And that's a valuable thing. It's a good thing. 493 00:23:15,170 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: That's a good 494 00:23:15,599 --> 00:23:17,750 Speaker 2: thing. It's a good thing. It's a good thing. You know, 495 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:18,900 Speaker 2: if you go back to, 496 00:23:19,479 --> 00:23:21,699 Speaker 2: I mean, again, I love history. You go back to 497 00:23:21,709 --> 00:23:25,189 Speaker 2: 200 years ago when you were 13 and 14, you 498 00:23:25,199 --> 00:23:27,780 Speaker 2: used to do full time jobs, right? This whole idea 499 00:23:27,790 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 2: of teenage and adolescence was the creation of the 20th 500 00:23:30,810 --> 00:23:34,079 Speaker 2: century before that didn't exist now. So you have the 501 00:23:34,089 --> 00:23:35,660 Speaker 2: human capacity to start doing 502 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,329 Speaker 2: big things. Very young, Alexander was 33 years old when 503 00:23:38,339 --> 00:23:41,020 Speaker 2: he conquered the world and died. Think about it, right? 504 00:23:41,030 --> 00:23:43,010 Speaker 2: So he had died at 33 and we are now 505 00:23:43,020 --> 00:23:45,369 Speaker 2: worried about people in their thirties doing things and not 506 00:23:45,380 --> 00:23:49,379 Speaker 2: doing things. So my style changed to see how do 507 00:23:49,390 --> 00:23:51,900 Speaker 2: I actually involve younger people 508 00:23:52,199 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 2: and therefore get to a more horizontal style of management, 509 00:23:55,170 --> 00:23:58,829 Speaker 2: a more participative leadership style, as opposed to a more 510 00:23:58,839 --> 00:24:02,150 Speaker 2: directional and directive leadership style and technology lets you do 511 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: that. I'm sure that takes a little bit of, I 512 00:24:04,010 --> 00:24:06,670 Speaker 1: don't know, time, a little bit of experience, not everybody 513 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,400 Speaker 1: can do that so easily because we were used to 514 00:24:09,410 --> 00:24:10,819 Speaker 1: a different type of leadership. 515 00:24:11,180 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: And then now when you are leaders, we expected to 516 00:24:14,060 --> 00:24:17,969 Speaker 1: manage Gen Z is a little bit differently, some adjustment, right? 517 00:24:18,689 --> 00:24:21,930 Speaker 2: Adjustment all around, right? I think you can learn. And 518 00:24:21,939 --> 00:24:24,290 Speaker 2: if you're conscious of thinking, how do I get the 519 00:24:24,300 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 2: best outcomes? And is there a different way to engage 520 00:24:27,569 --> 00:24:29,939 Speaker 2: people and get the best outcomes you get there? So 521 00:24:29,949 --> 00:24:32,609 Speaker 2: actually start often with thinking, you know, what would I 522 00:24:32,619 --> 00:24:35,250 Speaker 2: create in the work environment? What is the employee value 523 00:24:35,260 --> 00:24:38,270 Speaker 2: proposition which will keep these young people in their twenties 524 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:40,349 Speaker 2: and thirties interested in their job and, 525 00:24:40,435 --> 00:24:43,484 Speaker 2: and loyal to the company? And we start with that prison. 526 00:24:43,494 --> 00:24:45,454 Speaker 2: Then you see, I've got to create an environment where 527 00:24:45,464 --> 00:24:47,364 Speaker 2: they can do the things they want to do, they 528 00:24:47,375 --> 00:24:50,514 Speaker 2: can make impact that they have a voice and they're 529 00:24:50,525 --> 00:24:54,905 Speaker 2: not just busy like robots, you know. So the minister, OK, 530 00:24:54,915 --> 00:24:56,625 Speaker 2: this is what I want to solve for then you 531 00:24:56,635 --> 00:24:57,573 Speaker 2: have to change your leadership 532 00:24:57,584 --> 00:25:00,574 Speaker 1: style. Speaking of Gen Z and millennials, let's move on 533 00:25:00,584 --> 00:25:02,444 Speaker 1: to talent. It is something that we talk about a 534 00:25:02,454 --> 00:25:04,833 Speaker 1: lot on this podcast, how to find good talent, how 535 00:25:04,844 --> 00:25:07,204 Speaker 1: to keep them. And a lot has been written about 536 00:25:07,214 --> 00:25:09,614 Speaker 1: how leaders have aspired to be all things to everyone, 537 00:25:10,030 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: but give us a hard truth since you've been there, 538 00:25:12,010 --> 00:25:15,429 Speaker 1: done that. How do you look at good performance And 539 00:25:15,439 --> 00:25:19,290 Speaker 1: also especially how do you deal with someone who isn't performing? 540 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,649 Speaker 2: Have this rubric of the five eyes. I call it 541 00:25:22,660 --> 00:25:25,410 Speaker 2: sometimes I make it six eyes and that's what I 542 00:25:25,420 --> 00:25:28,530 Speaker 2: look for in people to figure that they have, they 543 00:25:28,540 --> 00:25:31,199 Speaker 2: have runway. I encourage all people that this is what 544 00:25:31,209 --> 00:25:33,659 Speaker 2: we should try to achieve. So I talk about individual 545 00:25:33,670 --> 00:25:37,060 Speaker 2: accountability already. The second thing I look for is initiative. 546 00:25:37,229 --> 00:25:40,170 Speaker 2: So are you willing to step up and come up 547 00:25:40,180 --> 00:25:42,819 Speaker 2: with their own ideas? I often say it's very easy 548 00:25:42,829 --> 00:25:45,619 Speaker 2: to go through life just turning on your PC in 549 00:25:45,630 --> 00:25:49,209 Speaker 2: the morning and answering your inbox, you have 100 emails 550 00:25:49,550 --> 00:25:51,688 Speaker 2: so you can go through and by eight o'clock, you 551 00:25:51,719 --> 00:25:53,959 Speaker 2: have 80 emails and your whole life is not answering 552 00:25:53,969 --> 00:25:56,688 Speaker 2: what people tell you to do. The real trick is 553 00:25:56,699 --> 00:26:00,089 Speaker 2: how do you create your own outbox? If you're a junior, 554 00:26:00,239 --> 00:26:02,948 Speaker 2: I tell people at least 10 20% of your agenda 555 00:26:02,959 --> 00:26:05,329 Speaker 2: should be your agenda. And by the time you get 556 00:26:05,339 --> 00:26:08,129 Speaker 2: to my level, 50% of the agenda should be your agenda, 557 00:26:08,140 --> 00:26:11,520 Speaker 2: not driven by somebody else. So that's initiative. You know, 558 00:26:11,530 --> 00:26:13,479 Speaker 2: how do you actually create your own outbox? 559 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:18,060 Speaker 2: The third eye for me is innovation and it's a buzzword, 560 00:26:18,069 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 2: but it is questioning the status quo. It's not making 561 00:26:20,410 --> 00:26:23,099 Speaker 2: the new iphone, but it is being willing to think 562 00:26:23,109 --> 00:26:24,969 Speaker 2: about new ways of doing things. 563 00:26:25,550 --> 00:26:28,239 Speaker 2: A lot of the people who do well are constantly 564 00:26:28,250 --> 00:26:31,010 Speaker 2: questioning why is this done this way? And you know, 565 00:26:31,020 --> 00:26:34,390 Speaker 2: people saw policy but why is the policy there or regulation? 566 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,319 Speaker 2: But why is the regulation there? There must be a 567 00:26:36,329 --> 00:26:39,290 Speaker 2: root cause. And if you can keep questioning, why do 568 00:26:39,300 --> 00:26:40,810 Speaker 2: things happen the way they are? And is there a 569 00:26:40,819 --> 00:26:43,540 Speaker 2: better way to do this and achieve your outcomes? You'll 570 00:26:43,550 --> 00:26:45,949 Speaker 2: do well because it creates a questioning mindset and that's 571 00:26:45,959 --> 00:26:46,810 Speaker 2: the innovation. 572 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,140 Speaker 2: The fourth I for me, I call inspiration and that's 573 00:26:51,150 --> 00:26:54,420 Speaker 2: about taking people with you. It's not as inspiring your 574 00:26:54,430 --> 00:26:58,469 Speaker 2: juniors though. It's also inspiring your peers, it's inspiring your seniors. 575 00:26:58,540 --> 00:27:00,719 Speaker 2: How do you get people to be aligned to agenda? 576 00:27:00,729 --> 00:27:04,290 Speaker 2: And there are two sub themes to that. One is empathy. 577 00:27:04,300 --> 00:27:06,899 Speaker 2: You got to really be willing to put yourself in 578 00:27:06,910 --> 00:27:09,739 Speaker 2: other people's shoes. That's how you take people with them. 579 00:27:09,750 --> 00:27:12,660 Speaker 2: You got to empathize deeply. And the other sub theme 580 00:27:12,670 --> 00:27:14,050 Speaker 2: to that is communication skills. 581 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,989 Speaker 2: So if you want to inspire and take people with you, 582 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,300 Speaker 2: you have to be able to write well and speak well. 583 00:27:19,310 --> 00:27:22,619 Speaker 2: I think that's probably the most underrated skills today, the 584 00:27:22,630 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 2: capacity to communicate and be able to take people with you. 585 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,438 Speaker 2: And the fifth I is I call it intent. So 586 00:27:29,449 --> 00:27:32,650 Speaker 2: your purpose of why you're doing what you're doing should 587 00:27:32,660 --> 00:27:35,500 Speaker 2: be clear. And if you can make sure your agenda, 588 00:27:35,510 --> 00:27:38,929 Speaker 2: your purpose is aligned to the organizational purpose, then you're 589 00:27:38,939 --> 00:27:41,260 Speaker 2: on steroids, it works, works very, very well. 590 00:27:41,810 --> 00:27:44,979 Speaker 2: So everybody has their own, you know, thing I looking for, 591 00:27:44,989 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 2: I look for these things in people and I encourage 592 00:27:47,209 --> 00:27:49,750 Speaker 2: people to develop these skills. And if you do that, 593 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,020 Speaker 2: then by and large, you do OK. 594 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,270 Speaker 1: The struggle is when you meet someone, you know who 595 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:55,719 Speaker 1: doesn't 596 00:27:55,729 --> 00:27:58,069 Speaker 2: do OK. That is the second part of your question. 597 00:27:58,439 --> 00:28:01,050 Speaker 2: You know, first of all, I have a innate belief 598 00:28:01,060 --> 00:28:04,589 Speaker 2: in people's capability to do something. It's not always the 599 00:28:04,599 --> 00:28:07,010 Speaker 2: same thing, you know, scientists today tell you that there 600 00:28:07,020 --> 00:28:11,069 Speaker 2: are actually nine types of intelligence and we have so 601 00:28:11,079 --> 00:28:14,449 Speaker 2: far by and large focused on two of those which 602 00:28:14,459 --> 00:28:18,930 Speaker 2: are verbal skills, linguistic skills and analytic numeric skills. The 603 00:28:18,939 --> 00:28:23,829 Speaker 2: other seven types of intelligence includes environmental knowledge, musical skills, 604 00:28:23,839 --> 00:28:26,149 Speaker 2: spatial knowledge, et cetera, et cetera. 605 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 2: Now I've always believed that that some people are better 606 00:28:30,010 --> 00:28:33,900 Speaker 2: at other things. For example, my wife is just fantastic 607 00:28:33,910 --> 00:28:37,750 Speaker 2: with environment. She's not very good with numbers. So you 608 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:39,949 Speaker 2: got to go and look deeply into every person and say, 609 00:28:39,959 --> 00:28:42,819 Speaker 2: what is this person really good at? And if you 610 00:28:42,829 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 2: can do that, then you can generally give people advice 611 00:28:46,010 --> 00:28:48,150 Speaker 2: on what you think they could be better at than 612 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,329 Speaker 2: the job that they're doing. Right. 613 00:28:50,650 --> 00:28:52,869 Speaker 2: Sometimes I figure it's within the job as well that, 614 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,709 Speaker 2: you know, you're doing this job which requires customer facing skills. 615 00:28:55,719 --> 00:28:57,849 Speaker 2: This is not your strength. We should put you in 616 00:28:57,859 --> 00:29:00,390 Speaker 2: a different area where you can just do number crunching. 617 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,089 Speaker 2: You probably be better at that. But other times, I've 618 00:29:03,099 --> 00:29:05,150 Speaker 2: had to tell people, I don't think you're cut out 619 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,089 Speaker 2: to be an organization person. I don't think you're cut 620 00:29:08,099 --> 00:29:09,270 Speaker 2: out to be a banker 621 00:29:09,630 --> 00:29:13,410 Speaker 2: and maybe you want to try 1234 other things. My 622 00:29:13,420 --> 00:29:15,660 Speaker 2: experience has been as long as you have a genuine 623 00:29:15,670 --> 00:29:19,780 Speaker 2: interest in helping people realize their potential, you can actually 624 00:29:19,790 --> 00:29:22,410 Speaker 2: give people some very difficult messages. But as long as 625 00:29:22,420 --> 00:29:24,900 Speaker 2: you're authentic and people understand that you are trying to 626 00:29:25,084 --> 00:29:27,175 Speaker 2: them stuff, which is probably good for them in the 627 00:29:27,185 --> 00:29:27,734 Speaker 2: long time. 628 00:29:27,885 --> 00:29:30,194 Speaker 1: Now that we've got the heavy stuff out of the way. 629 00:29:30,204 --> 00:29:33,295 Speaker 1: Let's do a few lighthearted questions. Ok. So we have 630 00:29:33,305 --> 00:29:37,635 Speaker 1: this round where we just ask our guests some rapid fire. Yeah, 631 00:29:37,645 --> 00:29:39,714 Speaker 1: it's kind of like a rapid fight, just whatever comes 632 00:29:39,724 --> 00:29:43,074 Speaker 1: to your mind. Ok. So I'll start tell us what 633 00:29:43,084 --> 00:29:45,744 Speaker 1: golden rule do you have about managing your time? 634 00:29:46,285 --> 00:29:50,515 Speaker 2: Split the urgent from the important. Wow, that's hard. No, 635 00:29:50,525 --> 00:29:51,194 Speaker 2: it's not hard 636 00:29:51,479 --> 00:29:54,010 Speaker 2: where all of us have urgent things to do and 637 00:29:54,020 --> 00:29:57,250 Speaker 2: the urgent things need attention now. But the urgent things 638 00:29:57,260 --> 00:29:58,900 Speaker 2: are not always the important things. 639 00:29:59,579 --> 00:30:02,930 Speaker 2: And so I keep my important things for when I 640 00:30:02,939 --> 00:30:06,180 Speaker 2: can really apply mind to it. And most of my 641 00:30:06,189 --> 00:30:09,859 Speaker 2: important work happens over the weekend or on planes, but 642 00:30:09,869 --> 00:30:12,589 Speaker 2: the urgent stuff happens morning to evening when you got 643 00:30:12,599 --> 00:30:14,050 Speaker 2: to respond and firefight. 644 00:30:14,410 --> 00:30:17,689 Speaker 1: Ok. My turn if you had one extra hour in 645 00:30:17,699 --> 00:30:19,599 Speaker 1: a day, what would you spend it on 646 00:30:19,989 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 2: reading? I love reading and I'm very eclectic. So I 647 00:30:23,890 --> 00:30:25,869 Speaker 2: read fiction, non fiction, etcetera. 648 00:30:26,170 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 2: But I always, I'm left with the stack of books magazine, 649 00:30:29,650 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 2: period because all I'm going to get to it some day. 650 00:30:33,050 --> 00:30:34,290 Speaker 2: I just don't get to it. 651 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:38,869 Speaker 1: Ok. Complete the sentence behind every good CEO 652 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,410 Speaker 2: is a great spouse or partner. 653 00:30:41,599 --> 00:30:42,689 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 654 00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,180 Speaker 1: And finally, one piece of advice for a young person 655 00:30:46,189 --> 00:30:48,380 Speaker 1: who is starting out in their career. Nobody 656 00:30:48,390 --> 00:30:52,250 Speaker 2: knows the future. I mean, that's obviously a non, but 657 00:30:52,260 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 2: I think the pace of change is dramatic and therefore earlier, 658 00:30:54,930 --> 00:30:56,819 Speaker 2: you could make a take a view on 10 years now. 659 00:30:56,829 --> 00:30:58,410 Speaker 2: You can't even take a view on two years. 660 00:30:59,219 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 2: So I think what will be useful to build carriers 661 00:31:03,050 --> 00:31:06,829 Speaker 2: actually is the capacity to connect the dots and therefore 662 00:31:06,839 --> 00:31:10,660 Speaker 2: learning how to think, learning how to probe, learning how 663 00:31:10,670 --> 00:31:14,060 Speaker 2: to work with people to empathize. These will be far 664 00:31:14,069 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 2: more important than deep domain knowledge because domains will keep changing. 665 00:31:18,739 --> 00:31:21,359 Speaker 1: That's great. Ok. We have a few more bonus content. 666 00:31:21,369 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: The book that you're reading now, 667 00:31:23,310 --> 00:31:26,839 Speaker 2: it's called The Ministry For The Future. I think Obama 668 00:31:26,849 --> 00:31:29,310 Speaker 2: had it on his, one of his top reads for 669 00:31:29,319 --> 00:31:32,449 Speaker 2: last year. And I'm about a third of the way 670 00:31:32,459 --> 00:31:34,699 Speaker 2: through the book. It's scary. It's about climate 671 00:31:35,599 --> 00:31:37,770 Speaker 1: change. And since this is a podcast, we have to 672 00:31:37,780 --> 00:31:40,540 Speaker 1: ask you, is there a podcast or your favorite podcast 673 00:31:40,550 --> 00:31:41,369 Speaker 1: that you're listening to? 674 00:31:41,380 --> 00:31:44,140 Speaker 2: Well, I'm listening to the Empire right now. It's fabulous. 675 00:31:44,150 --> 00:31:44,930 Speaker 2: Very well done 676 00:31:45,859 --> 00:31:47,369 Speaker 1: exercise that works for you. 677 00:31:47,989 --> 00:31:51,729 Speaker 2: I do yoga, but that's just to keep the body limber. 678 00:31:51,739 --> 00:31:54,829 Speaker 2: It doesn't give you enough cardio. So I also go 679 00:31:54,839 --> 00:31:55,939 Speaker 2: to the gym a couple of times a 680 00:31:55,949 --> 00:31:59,130 Speaker 1: week. What is one thing that fatherhood has taught you 681 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 2: patience? The kids always know more than you do you 682 00:32:03,290 --> 00:32:04,729 Speaker 2: go to at least the thing they do? 683 00:32:06,150 --> 00:32:08,079 Speaker 1: Ok. What would an ideal retirement 684 00:32:08,089 --> 00:32:11,930 Speaker 2: look like? I love nature. So I'm good to spend 685 00:32:11,939 --> 00:32:14,900 Speaker 2: a lot more time with conservation and nature. I spend 686 00:32:14,910 --> 00:32:17,989 Speaker 2: a lot of time with birds and bird watching and 687 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,489 Speaker 2: friends and family to create a lot more time for 688 00:32:20,500 --> 00:32:21,290 Speaker 2: friends and family. 689 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:27,819 Speaker 1: Thanks to my guest, Mr Pus Gupta. He is very eclectic. Indeed. 690 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,229 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed this conversation. And if you learned 691 00:32:31,239 --> 00:32:33,660 Speaker 1: something from it, please pass it on to someone you 692 00:32:33,670 --> 00:32:36,660 Speaker 1: think would enjoy it too. And if you want to 693 00:32:36,670 --> 00:32:39,349 Speaker 1: give us feedback, we'd love to hear what you thought, 694 00:32:39,359 --> 00:32:43,099 Speaker 1: write to us at CNA podcast at Media corp.com dot SG. 695 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,099 Speaker 1: I think it's a good indication in this episode where 696 00:32:46,109 --> 00:32:48,619 Speaker 1: there are so many common themes across all the different 697 00:32:48,630 --> 00:32:51,420 Speaker 1: leaders that we have spoken with. And what I really 698 00:32:51,430 --> 00:32:54,050 Speaker 1: found interesting in this episode is one of the key 699 00:32:54,060 --> 00:32:55,670 Speaker 1: thing that could be helpful for you is to come 700 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,439 Speaker 1: up with an acronym. So in case in case is 701 00:32:59,449 --> 00:33:00,130 Speaker 1: gunned off, 702 00:33:00,569 --> 00:33:02,729 Speaker 1: a lot of the ring came into place. And I 703 00:33:02,739 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: think the whole storytelling thing, this has been very little 704 00:33:06,770 --> 00:33:10,069 Speaker 1: men in many different aspects, how the stories can lead 705 00:33:10,079 --> 00:33:12,609 Speaker 1: a movement and many other people together with you to 706 00:33:12,619 --> 00:33:13,890 Speaker 1: go on to this journey. 707 00:33:14,130 --> 00:33:16,369 Speaker 1: So I hope that is something that our listeners who 708 00:33:16,380 --> 00:33:19,250 Speaker 1: are leaders can learn from. Our thanks to the D 709 00:33:19,260 --> 00:33:22,030 Speaker 1: BS team who facilitated this and to the CN A 710 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,119 Speaker 1: podcast and digital teams work. It will be taking a 711 00:33:25,130 --> 00:33:27,270 Speaker 1: season break for the next few weeks and we'll be 712 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,709 Speaker 1: back in late July with a second set of leaders 713 00:33:29,719 --> 00:33:31,979 Speaker 1: on our special series. So stay tuned.