1 00:00:03,150 --> 00:00:05,429 Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast. 2 00:00:12,350 --> 00:00:17,819 Speaker 1: Elon Musk, electric vehicle and space visionary, world's richest person, 3 00:00:18,030 --> 00:00:22,378 Speaker 1: and most recently, first buddy of United States President Donald Trump. 4 00:00:22,549 --> 00:00:25,030 Speaker 1: He's a man with many projects on his plate, but 5 00:00:25,030 --> 00:00:29,180 Speaker 1: right now there's one thing he's really focused on. The 6 00:00:29,180 --> 00:00:30,860 Speaker 1: the Department of Government Efficiency. 7 00:00:31,649 --> 00:00:32,528 Speaker 1: It's gonna be 8 00:00:34,098 --> 00:00:34,110 Speaker 1: Great. 9 00:00:36,860 --> 00:00:39,799 Speaker 1: You know what that's gonna do is, is really just, uh, 10 00:00:39,810 --> 00:00:42,900 Speaker 1: take a look at, at, at all the federal expenditures, uh, if, 11 00:00:42,930 --> 00:00:45,130 Speaker 1: if you're not getting great value for money for your 12 00:00:45,130 --> 00:00:47,168 Speaker 1: hard earned tax dollars, cancel it. 13 00:00:49,389 --> 00:00:53,540 Speaker 1: Yeah. The Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE was set 14 00:00:53,540 --> 00:00:57,540 Speaker 1: up on President Trump's first day in office. Its purpose 15 00:00:57,540 --> 00:01:01,689 Speaker 1: carry out spending cuts. Its leader, for all intents and purposes, 16 00:01:01,860 --> 00:01:05,419 Speaker 1: Elon Musk. Reports say he and his Doge team have 17 00:01:05,419 --> 00:01:08,010 Speaker 1: access to at least 15 federal agencies. 18 00:01:08,419 --> 00:01:11,750 Speaker 1: But the Tesla CEO is also efficient at getting his 19 00:01:11,750 --> 00:01:16,289 Speaker 1: message out, calling himself a free speech absolutist and armed 20 00:01:16,290 --> 00:01:20,370 Speaker 1: with more than 200 million followers on social media. He's 21 00:01:20,370 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: criticized government leaders in the UK and EU and encouraged 22 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,889 Speaker 1: right-wing political movements in some 18 countries, according to one estimate. 23 00:01:29,589 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: I'm Teresa Tang. In America and beyond, Musk is influencing 24 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:37,289 Speaker 1: politics in a way we have never seen before. So 25 00:01:37,290 --> 00:01:38,929 Speaker 1: just how powerful is he? 26 00:01:39,339 --> 00:01:41,419 Speaker 1: Well, we're going to break it down this episode with 27 00:01:41,419 --> 00:01:46,330 Speaker 1: correspondent Kate Fisher in Washington DC and Trent Murray in Berlin, Germany. 28 00:01:46,500 --> 00:01:49,660 Speaker 1: Hi guys, thanks for joining me today. Hi Teresa. Great 29 00:01:49,660 --> 00:01:52,699 Speaker 1: to be with you. Kate, you're based in Washington DC 30 00:01:52,699 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: and you've had a front row seat to Musk's political ascent. 31 00:01:55,819 --> 00:01:58,980 Speaker 1: Can you tell me what has been the most surprising 32 00:01:58,980 --> 00:02:01,379 Speaker 1: thing for you to witness? You know, how polarizing a 33 00:02:01,379 --> 00:02:05,660 Speaker 1: figure is Musk in America? He is incredibly polarizing and 34 00:02:05,660 --> 00:02:07,870 Speaker 1: in terms of surprising things, I 35 00:02:08,139 --> 00:02:10,300 Speaker 1: I can't decide whether it was when he was, you know, 36 00:02:10,410 --> 00:02:14,209 Speaker 1: wielding a chainsaw above his head at the Conservative Political 37 00:02:14,210 --> 00:02:18,089 Speaker 1: Action Conference just recently here or whether it was when 38 00:02:18,089 --> 00:02:21,330 Speaker 1: he appeared in the Oval Office next to Donald Trump 39 00:02:21,330 --> 00:02:23,728 Speaker 1: as Donald Trump sat at his desk. He stood there 40 00:02:23,729 --> 00:02:27,380 Speaker 1: with his toddler child on his shoulders and kind of 41 00:02:27,380 --> 00:02:30,690 Speaker 1: just spoke for a long time as Donald Trump sat 42 00:02:30,690 --> 00:02:33,508 Speaker 1: there basically mute. That was pretty surprising and then. 43 00:02:33,869 --> 00:02:36,529 Speaker 1: The cabinet meeting, he is not an official member of 44 00:02:36,529 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: the US cabinet, but he was there in the room 45 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,970 Speaker 1: and he essentially spoke for the whole meeting, and the 46 00:02:41,970 --> 00:02:44,929 Speaker 1: cabinet secretaries who are Senate approved and meant to be 47 00:02:44,929 --> 00:02:47,610 Speaker 1: giving their reports, barely got a word and so. 48 00:02:48,190 --> 00:02:51,429 Speaker 1: There are many ways that he has surprised me, but 49 00:02:51,429 --> 00:02:53,270 Speaker 1: in terms of how people what people think of him, 50 00:02:53,309 --> 00:02:56,549 Speaker 1: I've spoken to a lot of Americans about this and 51 00:02:56,550 --> 00:02:59,668 Speaker 1: a lot of really ardent Trump supporters, including those who 52 00:02:59,669 --> 00:03:02,750 Speaker 1: came here to Washington for the inauguration, spent their money 53 00:03:02,750 --> 00:03:05,429 Speaker 1: to come and be here, so they really do love him. 54 00:03:05,990 --> 00:03:08,889 Speaker 1: And every single one of those that I spoke to 55 00:03:09,149 --> 00:03:12,589 Speaker 1: was really pleased that Elon Musk was really close to 56 00:03:12,589 --> 00:03:16,429 Speaker 1: the president and so involved in running the government. They 57 00:03:16,429 --> 00:03:18,190 Speaker 1: said things to me like, you know, if you've got 58 00:03:18,190 --> 00:03:21,660 Speaker 1: a genius willing to do this, why wouldn't you let him? 59 00:03:21,788 --> 00:03:23,630 Speaker 1: Let's hear some of the other people what they had 60 00:03:23,630 --> 00:03:23,990 Speaker 1: to say. 61 00:03:24,660 --> 00:03:29,038 Speaker 1: I think that Trump surrounds himself with intelligent people that 62 00:03:29,038 --> 00:03:32,008 Speaker 1: know what to do for specific tasks, and I think 63 00:03:32,008 --> 00:03:34,559 Speaker 1: that's one of the things that I've appreciated about Donald Trump. 64 00:03:34,850 --> 00:03:36,580 Speaker 1: He doesn't have to do it all himself. He doesn't 65 00:03:36,580 --> 00:03:39,690 Speaker 1: have to be that person that solves everything. He surrounds 66 00:03:39,690 --> 00:03:42,429 Speaker 1: himself with the correct people to get the job done. 67 00:03:42,889 --> 00:03:47,399 Speaker 1: About 6700 kilometers away from the White House is Berlin. 68 00:03:47,729 --> 00:03:48,929 Speaker 1: That is where you are, Trent. 69 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,089 Speaker 1: And Musk is no stranger to Germany, right? What sort 70 00:03:52,089 --> 00:03:55,419 Speaker 1: of relationship did Musk have with Berlin before his push 71 00:03:55,419 --> 00:03:58,820 Speaker 1: into politics began? Tell us. Well, look, very much from 72 00:03:58,820 --> 00:04:02,619 Speaker 1: his private sector background and around Tesla in particular, Elon 73 00:04:02,619 --> 00:04:06,259 Speaker 1: Musk has had a long relationship with elected officials in Germany. 74 00:04:06,380 --> 00:04:11,369 Speaker 1: He selected Berlin as the location for his first gigafactory 75 00:04:11,369 --> 00:04:15,619 Speaker 1: in Europe, effectively a factory to build Tesla cars, and 76 00:04:15,619 --> 00:04:17,589 Speaker 1: to try and get a project of that scale off 77 00:04:17,589 --> 00:04:21,339 Speaker 1: the ground required a lot of political cooperation. It was 78 00:04:21,339 --> 00:04:23,260 Speaker 1: very common to see Elon Musk. 79 00:04:23,730 --> 00:04:28,729 Speaker 1: Having meetings and press calls with high profile politicians in Germany, 80 00:04:28,809 --> 00:04:32,290 Speaker 1: he eventually got that factory built. He's now operating, but 81 00:04:32,290 --> 00:04:35,369 Speaker 1: then we've started to see a shift from Musk in 82 00:04:35,369 --> 00:04:38,250 Speaker 1: the past 6 months or so where he's almost turning 83 00:04:38,250 --> 00:04:40,739 Speaker 1: his back on a lot of those relationships now and 84 00:04:41,130 --> 00:04:45,730 Speaker 1: really criticizing the country. He's set his targets on the Chancellor, 85 00:04:45,850 --> 00:04:49,690 Speaker 1: Olaf Schultz. He set his targets on particular parties. 86 00:04:49,936 --> 00:04:52,816 Speaker 1: Policies and it's all kind of culminated now in him 87 00:04:53,255 --> 00:04:57,145 Speaker 1: fully backing a party known as the Alternative for Germany. 88 00:04:57,216 --> 00:05:00,696 Speaker 1: This is a far right party branded as extremist by 89 00:05:00,696 --> 00:05:03,695 Speaker 1: many of its opponents. He has said that only that 90 00:05:03,696 --> 00:05:08,015 Speaker 1: party can save Germany, and that has really shocked the 91 00:05:08,015 --> 00:05:11,575 Speaker 1: German political establishment because I think they always knew he 92 00:05:11,575 --> 00:05:14,415 Speaker 1: was quite disruptive and was taking a bit of a 93 00:05:14,415 --> 00:05:15,895 Speaker 1: different sort of approach to. 94 00:05:15,992 --> 00:05:20,502 Speaker 1: World, given his close relationship with the Trump administration, but 95 00:05:20,502 --> 00:05:23,361 Speaker 1: to see him back a party which for many is 96 00:05:23,361 --> 00:05:27,541 Speaker 1: really on the fringes and representing extremist views, it really 97 00:05:27,541 --> 00:05:31,342 Speaker 1: caused a political earthquake in Germany. Kate, in your report, 98 00:05:31,421 --> 00:05:35,941 Speaker 1: you point out that Donald Trump won 77 million votes. 99 00:05:36,221 --> 00:05:39,622 Speaker 1: Musk didn't win a single one. He's unelected, and that's 100 00:05:39,622 --> 00:05:42,061 Speaker 1: a big issue, right, that he is unelected. 101 00:05:42,510 --> 00:05:44,989 Speaker 1: Yet appears to wield a lot of power in the 102 00:05:44,988 --> 00:05:48,469 Speaker 1: White House. Critics though, they say, look, Musk was very 103 00:05:48,470 --> 00:05:51,390 Speaker 1: visible with Trump on the campaign trail and essentially a 104 00:05:51,390 --> 00:05:54,109 Speaker 1: vote for Trump was a vote for Musk in a way. 105 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,599 Speaker 1: Absolutely. And as I said, the people who did vote 106 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: for Trump, the ones I spoke to at the inauguration. 107 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,799 Speaker 1: fully endorsed him and were really happy that he is 108 00:06:05,799 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 1: so close to the president they elected, even though they 109 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,040 Speaker 1: didn't actually vote for him. They saw it as an 110 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,308 Speaker 1: extra advantage to voting for Trump, but they also got 111 00:06:14,309 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: what they see as kind of the power, money, and 112 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: genius of Elon Musk. And when I kind of challenged 113 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,079 Speaker 1: that and said, but what about the fact that he 114 00:06:23,079 --> 00:06:25,420 Speaker 1: may make money out of his position that you didn't 115 00:06:25,420 --> 00:06:26,238 Speaker 1: elect him. 116 00:06:26,670 --> 00:06:29,670 Speaker 1: They said we don't mind, you know, why wouldn't we 117 00:06:29,670 --> 00:06:31,500 Speaker 1: make the most of this man who wants to help 118 00:06:31,500 --> 00:06:34,149 Speaker 1: the US government and also they said they didn't know 119 00:06:34,149 --> 00:06:37,709 Speaker 1: a politician alive that didn't make money out of being 120 00:06:37,709 --> 00:06:40,428 Speaker 1: close to government. They kind of accepted that as something 121 00:06:40,428 --> 00:06:43,469 Speaker 1: that just happened. But I got very different vibes when 122 00:06:43,470 --> 00:06:47,349 Speaker 1: I spoke to Democrats, who also every single Democrat I've 123 00:06:47,350 --> 00:06:50,308 Speaker 1: spoken to is not a fan of Elon Musk being 124 00:06:50,309 --> 00:06:52,738 Speaker 1: so close to the center of power. 125 00:06:53,010 --> 00:06:55,979 Speaker 1: And they points, you know, to, for example, to the 126 00:06:55,980 --> 00:06:58,980 Speaker 1: tableau at the inauguration, where Musk was right close to 127 00:06:58,980 --> 00:07:01,410 Speaker 1: Trump at the in the ceremony of the inauguration, as 128 00:07:01,410 --> 00:07:05,928 Speaker 1: well as Jeff Bezos of Amazon, Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook, 129 00:07:06,019 --> 00:07:08,738 Speaker 1: and they talked about this kind of oligarchy of these 130 00:07:08,738 --> 00:07:15,019 Speaker 1: incredibly rich, incredibly powerful tech billionaires essentially having the ear 131 00:07:15,019 --> 00:07:17,739 Speaker 1: of the president, and it was really concerning to them. 132 00:07:18,410 --> 00:07:20,769 Speaker 1: As well as all the work that Musk is doing 133 00:07:20,769 --> 00:07:24,049 Speaker 1: with Doge, the Department of Government efficiency, where he's going 134 00:07:24,049 --> 00:07:29,369 Speaker 1: into these government agencies slashing budgets, laying people off. Concern 135 00:07:29,369 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: from Democrats about that is what programs are going to 136 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:34,450 Speaker 1: be disappeared, but also 137 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:38,619 Speaker 1: You know, the kind of, are they accessing personal information 138 00:07:38,829 --> 00:07:40,750 Speaker 1: and what it means for how the country will be 139 00:07:40,750 --> 00:07:44,230 Speaker 1: run in the future, and there are serious concerns from Democrats, 140 00:07:44,269 --> 00:07:47,140 Speaker 1: but obviously they are powerless to do anything right now, 141 00:07:47,190 --> 00:07:49,899 Speaker 1: given the fact that Donald Trump is the elected president 142 00:07:49,899 --> 00:07:52,459 Speaker 1: and he has chosen to put Elon Musk in this position. 143 00:07:52,630 --> 00:07:56,869 Speaker 1: So there's also concern from critics of Musk about how 144 00:07:56,869 --> 00:08:00,149 Speaker 1: much money he could potentially make out of his position. 145 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:02,559 Speaker 1: At the center of power. I mean, he's literally got 146 00:08:02,559 --> 00:08:05,950 Speaker 1: an office in the West Wing now next to Donald Trump. 147 00:08:06,359 --> 00:08:10,959 Speaker 1: He already, according to a Washington Post investigation, his companies 148 00:08:10,959 --> 00:08:14,730 Speaker 1: have already made $38 billion out of the US government, 149 00:08:14,799 --> 00:08:18,709 Speaker 1: and that's before he got this office in the West Wing. 150 00:08:19,119 --> 00:08:23,690 Speaker 1: SpaceX has got billions from NASA and the Department of Defense, 151 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:28,220 Speaker 1: but also Tesla has collected $11.4 billion according to this 152 00:08:28,220 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 1: Washington Post research. 153 00:08:30,049 --> 00:08:33,900 Speaker 1: And now Elon Musk is actually in charge of cutting 154 00:08:33,900 --> 00:08:37,380 Speaker 1: the budgets and deciding who works at these departments who 155 00:08:37,380 --> 00:08:41,579 Speaker 1: ultimately are giving his companies these contracts. And there is 156 00:08:41,580 --> 00:08:43,940 Speaker 1: real concern that there's a conflict of interest here and 157 00:08:43,940 --> 00:08:47,020 Speaker 1: when reporters have asked the White House about this, they've 158 00:08:47,020 --> 00:08:49,590 Speaker 1: said if Elon Musk comes across any. 159 00:08:50,049 --> 00:08:53,819 Speaker 1: of interest in his work, he will decide to excuse 160 00:08:53,820 --> 00:08:57,579 Speaker 1: himself from those contracts. And of course, many of his 161 00:08:57,580 --> 00:09:00,729 Speaker 1: critics don't see that as an effective way of ensuring 162 00:09:00,729 --> 00:09:04,229 Speaker 1: that he doesn't make money. He's policing himself really. Absolutely 163 00:09:04,229 --> 00:09:06,950 Speaker 1: he's policing himself. There's no oversight of what he's doing. 164 00:09:07,020 --> 00:09:09,459 Speaker 1: And on top of that, talking of oversight. 165 00:09:10,099 --> 00:09:14,820 Speaker 1: There's also concern, particularly from safety advocates, that he is 166 00:09:14,820 --> 00:09:18,809 Speaker 1: going to be dissolving or trying to advise Donald Trump 167 00:09:18,809 --> 00:09:21,580 Speaker 1: and the federal government as a whole to dissolve things 168 00:09:21,580 --> 00:09:26,659 Speaker 1: like safety initiatives and federal investigations into the safety of 169 00:09:26,659 --> 00:09:29,169 Speaker 1: self-driving cars, which of course he has a huge interest 170 00:09:29,169 --> 00:09:31,140 Speaker 1: in with his company Tesla. 171 00:09:31,489 --> 00:09:34,169 Speaker 1: And he has found in the past that he's come 172 00:09:34,169 --> 00:09:37,489 Speaker 1: up against these problems when his cars have been involved 173 00:09:37,489 --> 00:09:39,849 Speaker 1: in accidents, and it's likely that he will be trying 174 00:09:39,849 --> 00:09:43,130 Speaker 1: to use his influence to get those kind of federal 175 00:09:43,130 --> 00:09:47,169 Speaker 1: oversight bodies to become less powerful, and that will help 176 00:09:47,169 --> 00:09:49,890 Speaker 1: his company also make more money in the future. But 177 00:09:49,890 --> 00:09:53,469 Speaker 1: safety activists have warned that the consequences of that could 178 00:09:53,469 --> 00:09:54,369 Speaker 1: be truly dire. 179 00:09:54,919 --> 00:09:58,799 Speaker 1: During my reporting, I was speaking to many analysts as well, 180 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: and I spoke to Luke and Wei, who is a 181 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:05,750 Speaker 1: distinguished professor of democracy at the University of Toronto in Canada. 182 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: He co-wrote an article for Foreign Affairs magazine, which is 183 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,559 Speaker 1: a very kind of impactful foreign policy magazine here in 184 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: the United States. And in that article, he asked whether 185 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:21,890 Speaker 1: the US was on a path to authoritarianism, and here's 186 00:10:21,890 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: what he had to say about what Musk is doing. 187 00:10:25,109 --> 00:10:30,630 Speaker 1: So this, you know, violates democracy at its core, right? Um, 188 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,530 Speaker 1: that you cannot just have private individuals come in and, 189 00:10:34,590 --> 00:10:39,599 Speaker 1: and ignore and violate laws um with impunity, and literally 190 00:10:39,599 --> 00:10:41,119 Speaker 1: go into 191 00:10:41,750 --> 00:10:44,549 Speaker 1: The most essential and kind of parts of the state, 192 00:10:44,630 --> 00:10:47,909 Speaker 1: which is the payment system. Shocking almost seems like too 193 00:10:47,909 --> 00:10:51,539 Speaker 1: mild a word. Despite all that Musk has going on 194 00:10:51,539 --> 00:10:54,390 Speaker 1: in America, he still has made the time to throw 195 00:10:54,390 --> 00:10:57,869 Speaker 1: his support behind, as you just said, the Alternative for 196 00:10:57,869 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: Germany party or AFD. 197 00:10:59,690 --> 00:11:02,699 Speaker 1: And just before Christmas, in fact, he expressed his support 198 00:11:02,700 --> 00:11:07,229 Speaker 1: on X and the party's leader, Alice Weidel, has said 199 00:11:07,229 --> 00:11:10,030 Speaker 1: she almost fell off her chair at his endorsement just 200 00:11:10,030 --> 00:11:12,859 Speaker 1: ahead of the elections. So my question to you, Trent 201 00:11:12,859 --> 00:11:16,460 Speaker 1: is why? Why has Musk gotten involved in the country's 202 00:11:16,460 --> 00:11:20,489 Speaker 1: domestic affairs? And also what do Germans think of this? 203 00:11:21,359 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: Well, look, I think a lot of people were just 204 00:11:23,520 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: genuinely shocked that he did get involved. I've attended several 205 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: AFD rallies just as part of my reporting, and one 206 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,039 Speaker 1: of the things you pick up is a lot of 207 00:11:32,039 --> 00:11:34,599 Speaker 1: the rhetoric is similar to what you hear in the 208 00:11:34,599 --> 00:11:38,039 Speaker 1: United States on the Trump campaign. They talk about cracking 209 00:11:38,039 --> 00:11:42,570 Speaker 1: down on illegal immigration and increasing deportations. They talk about. 210 00:11:42,895 --> 00:11:47,015 Speaker 1: Uh, opposing green energy and renewable energy because of the 211 00:11:47,015 --> 00:11:49,565 Speaker 1: cost it adds to doing business. They talk about things 212 00:11:49,565 --> 00:11:53,455 Speaker 1: like law and order, things that are very similar to 213 00:11:53,455 --> 00:11:56,426 Speaker 1: what Cadden and those in the US would be familiar with. 214 00:11:56,495 --> 00:11:59,575 Speaker 1: And so in many ways, the kind of political link, 215 00:11:59,695 --> 00:12:01,495 Speaker 1: I think, to what they are trying to do and 216 00:12:01,495 --> 00:12:03,895 Speaker 1: what Musk's kind of new worldview is. 217 00:12:04,081 --> 00:12:07,481 Speaker 1: On his endorsement of the Trump administration just a line. I, 218 00:12:07,552 --> 00:12:11,572 Speaker 1: I spoke to one member of the European Parliament, Thomas Rovik, 219 00:12:11,671 --> 00:12:15,192 Speaker 1: who is a member of the AFD and he effectively 220 00:12:15,192 --> 00:12:17,552 Speaker 1: said that the endorsement has really put the wind in 221 00:12:17,552 --> 00:12:21,831 Speaker 1: their sails. They're feeling emboldened, they're feeling energized. They really 222 00:12:21,831 --> 00:12:24,591 Speaker 1: took it, uh, very, very happily. Let's have a listen 223 00:12:24,591 --> 00:12:25,392 Speaker 1: to what he told me. 224 00:12:25,719 --> 00:12:30,630 Speaker 1: Elon Musk's endorsement is an incredible gain an incredible boost 225 00:12:30,630 --> 00:12:34,109 Speaker 1: for our image because um Elon Musk is one of 226 00:12:34,109 --> 00:12:37,989 Speaker 1: the most successful entrepreneurs in the world. On the one hand, 227 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,190 Speaker 1: it was a big surprise for me, but on the 228 00:12:41,190 --> 00:12:44,969 Speaker 1: other hand, um, Elon Musk has made 229 00:12:45,530 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: A lot of statements in the past that show political 230 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: and philosophical alignment with the AFD. 231 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: So that was Thomas Frelich there, a member of the 232 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: European Parliament for the AFD party, effectively confirming what many 233 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,799 Speaker 1: sources in the party have told me, which is he 234 00:13:02,799 --> 00:13:05,079 Speaker 1: has really helped put the wind in the sails of 235 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:08,359 Speaker 1: the party. They often felt like that they were on 236 00:13:08,359 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: the fringes, that they struggled to get media time, that 237 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,750 Speaker 1: their political opponents really shunned them and wouldn't work with them, 238 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,479 Speaker 1: and some of that is still true, but I think 239 00:13:17,479 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: what Musk has helped them achieve is some really big 240 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,119 Speaker 1: headlines and an almost a normalization. 241 00:13:23,489 --> 00:13:27,130 Speaker 1: the German political scene, which is quite an unusual position 242 00:13:27,130 --> 00:13:30,210 Speaker 1: for them to be in, just given how, how much 243 00:13:30,210 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: their political opponents brand them as extremists. The other big 244 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,409 Speaker 1: thing we saw from Elon Musk, aside from the kind 245 00:13:36,409 --> 00:13:40,010 Speaker 1: of written endorsements on X and, and the like, was 246 00:13:40,010 --> 00:13:43,130 Speaker 1: he dialed in to their party convention and he actually 247 00:13:43,130 --> 00:13:46,869 Speaker 1: gave a speech via video link. Uh, Alice Weidel had 248 00:13:46,869 --> 00:13:50,489 Speaker 1: a smile from ear to ear. They, the crowd just 249 00:13:50,489 --> 00:13:53,229 Speaker 1: gave rapturous applause. You could tell that this was 250 00:13:53,690 --> 00:13:57,630 Speaker 1: A really big moment, I think in German political history 251 00:13:57,630 --> 00:14:01,270 Speaker 1: to to see a party which for many of their opponents, 252 00:14:01,349 --> 00:14:04,750 Speaker 1: it has to be said that considers their kind of 253 00:14:04,750 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: origin and their ideology to being not dissimilar to some 254 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 1: of the more extreme parties that we saw in the 255 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:15,049 Speaker 1: mid-20th century in Germany, but to see the 256 00:14:15,094 --> 00:14:19,405 Speaker 1: The world's richest man now giving a full worded endorsement 257 00:14:19,405 --> 00:14:22,405 Speaker 1: of them and saying that, quote, Only they can save Germany. 258 00:14:22,414 --> 00:14:25,525 Speaker 1: It felt like a huge moment when he made that appear. 259 00:14:26,005 --> 00:14:28,645 Speaker 1: I think whilst the party faithful, may have been very 260 00:14:28,645 --> 00:14:31,164 Speaker 1: pleased with that, I think for the sort of average 261 00:14:31,164 --> 00:14:33,924 Speaker 1: person on the street, there was still just an, an 262 00:14:33,924 --> 00:14:36,484 Speaker 1: element of being perplexed by all of this. Why was 263 00:14:36,804 --> 00:14:40,885 Speaker 1: this foreign billionaire getting himself involved in German politics? You know, 264 00:14:40,974 --> 00:14:43,354 Speaker 1: and when you hit the street and you speak to people, 265 00:14:43,809 --> 00:14:45,859 Speaker 1: Just kind of confusion. 266 00:14:46,289 --> 00:14:49,619 Speaker 2: I think it's a disaster for Germany because I think 267 00:14:49,619 --> 00:14:52,590 Speaker 2: American businessman doesn't have anything to do with the German 268 00:14:52,590 --> 00:14:57,169 Speaker 2: politics and I think we have to decide ourselves what's 269 00:14:57,169 --> 00:15:00,820 Speaker 2: best for our country and not what's best for Elon Musk. 270 00:15:01,210 --> 00:15:04,609 Speaker 1: Now this honeymoon period with Musk in America seems to 271 00:15:04,609 --> 00:15:08,169 Speaker 1: be coming to an end though, Kate, polls suggest support 272 00:15:08,169 --> 00:15:09,409 Speaker 1: for him and for Doge. 273 00:15:09,690 --> 00:15:12,679 Speaker 1: Appear to be waning. Also the courts, they've had some 274 00:15:12,679 --> 00:15:15,869 Speaker 1: success in putting a stop to a few of Doja's orders. 275 00:15:16,479 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: So how far could Musk go with his reach in Washington, 276 00:15:19,570 --> 00:15:20,039 Speaker 1: do you think? 277 00:15:21,140 --> 00:15:23,539 Speaker 1: Well, a lot of what he has been doing is 278 00:15:23,539 --> 00:15:27,219 Speaker 1: now under legal scrutiny, but part of the problem for 279 00:15:27,219 --> 00:15:30,859 Speaker 1: those people trying to pursue, trying to push back against 280 00:15:30,859 --> 00:15:33,059 Speaker 1: what he's doing using the courts, is that the courts 281 00:15:33,059 --> 00:15:37,500 Speaker 1: go very slowly. Justice is a slow process, whereas Donald 282 00:15:37,500 --> 00:15:40,099 Speaker 1: Trump and Elon Musk are so fast in what they're doing. 283 00:15:40,559 --> 00:15:44,039 Speaker 1: Almost the justice system can't keep up with how fast 284 00:15:44,039 --> 00:15:47,729 Speaker 1: things are moving, and that is something that he and 285 00:15:47,729 --> 00:15:52,039 Speaker 1: Donald Trump are using to their advantage. But what eventually 286 00:15:52,039 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: the courts decide could determine whether this is just a momentary. 287 00:15:57,969 --> 00:16:00,929 Speaker 1: blip in the kind of the typical way that the 288 00:16:00,929 --> 00:16:04,090 Speaker 1: US government or whether we are in a full blown 289 00:16:04,090 --> 00:16:09,099 Speaker 1: constitutional crisis. That's according to legal experts. It's how robust 290 00:16:09,289 --> 00:16:12,890 Speaker 1: the justice system is in the face of these challenges 291 00:16:12,890 --> 00:16:15,330 Speaker 1: from Musk and from Donald Trump. 292 00:16:15,789 --> 00:16:17,890 Speaker 1: And that is going to be, you know, something we're 293 00:16:17,890 --> 00:16:19,849 Speaker 1: going to have to wait and see whether it will 294 00:16:19,849 --> 00:16:24,210 Speaker 1: hold up and whether this will continue unchallenged and whether 295 00:16:24,210 --> 00:16:26,530 Speaker 1: he will be able to complete everything he's doing or 296 00:16:26,530 --> 00:16:29,570 Speaker 1: whether there will be legal pushback. But as I say, 297 00:16:29,609 --> 00:16:32,719 Speaker 1: it just takes so long in in this legal system 298 00:16:32,719 --> 00:16:34,739 Speaker 1: to to find out what the answers to that will be. 299 00:16:34,770 --> 00:16:37,690 Speaker 1: But at the moment, he and Trump are pushing ahead 300 00:16:38,049 --> 00:16:39,330 Speaker 1: with very little pushback. 301 00:16:40,330 --> 00:16:43,690 Speaker 1: Some have called what we're seeing today, Trent, an internet 302 00:16:43,690 --> 00:16:47,809 Speaker 1: industrial complex where we have the confluence of money, of 303 00:16:47,809 --> 00:16:51,570 Speaker 1: tech and political power all coming together to shape our 304 00:16:51,570 --> 00:16:55,369 Speaker 1: world in a way that we actually can't fully comprehend yet. 305 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: How much of a threat does Musk's influence over social 306 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:03,039 Speaker 1: media platforms worry leaders in Europe, particularly, I'm thinking when 307 00:17:03,039 --> 00:17:06,359 Speaker 1: it comes to elections? Look, I think what a lot 308 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:10,250 Speaker 1: of European leaders did over recent weeks was watch the 309 00:17:10,250 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 1: result of the German election and to try and understand 310 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: what the endorsement meant for the final results. Now the 311 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:20,239 Speaker 1: AFD party doubled its vote share since. 312 00:17:20,380 --> 00:17:23,130 Speaker 1: Last election, it got about 20% of the votes. They 313 00:17:23,130 --> 00:17:26,531 Speaker 1: were feeling quite pleased. They're now the second biggest party 314 00:17:26,531 --> 00:17:28,531 Speaker 1: in German parliament. Now, of course, it's going to take 315 00:17:28,531 --> 00:17:31,609 Speaker 1: some time, I think, to assess, to analyze what role 316 00:17:31,609 --> 00:17:33,970 Speaker 1: Musk may have had on that, but there can be 317 00:17:33,970 --> 00:17:36,330 Speaker 1: little doubt, uh, about the reach and the power that 318 00:17:36,330 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: he has now. I mean, he effectively owns the world's 319 00:17:39,171 --> 00:17:44,051 Speaker 1: biggest soapbox with instant translation availability. You know, you only 320 00:17:44,051 --> 00:17:44,821 Speaker 1: have to click a a 321 00:17:44,874 --> 00:17:48,034 Speaker 1: A small button to be able to read tweets and 322 00:17:48,034 --> 00:17:50,864 Speaker 1: posts in different languages. That's obviously a huge part of 323 00:17:50,864 --> 00:17:54,473 Speaker 1: how the European Union works. I think many leaders across 324 00:17:54,473 --> 00:17:57,423 Speaker 1: Europe will be wondering whether he might take a view 325 00:17:57,423 --> 00:18:00,504 Speaker 1: of their country and their election to try and involve 326 00:18:00,504 --> 00:18:03,264 Speaker 1: himself and what that means. I mean, we know, it's 327 00:18:03,263 --> 00:18:05,773 Speaker 1: not just Germany where we're seeing this. The United Kingdom 328 00:18:06,023 --> 00:18:08,223 Speaker 1: has had its own kind of brush with Elon Musk 329 00:18:08,223 --> 00:18:09,223 Speaker 1: after some quite high. 330 00:18:10,336 --> 00:18:13,556 Speaker 1: back and forth between Downing Street and, and, and him, 331 00:18:13,595 --> 00:18:16,205 Speaker 1: he's he's attacked the Prime Minister there over issues like 332 00:18:16,205 --> 00:18:19,875 Speaker 1: law and order and what he calls two-tier policing, effectively 333 00:18:19,875 --> 00:18:23,505 Speaker 1: saying that the police treat people differently based on their 334 00:18:23,505 --> 00:18:26,795 Speaker 1: race or ethnicity. I mean, this is quite like difficult 335 00:18:26,796 --> 00:18:28,956 Speaker 1: stuff that he's, that he's working on. I think the 336 00:18:28,955 --> 00:18:31,426 Speaker 1: British are trying to take a sort of an easy 337 00:18:31,426 --> 00:18:33,806 Speaker 1: approach with that. I think for Keir Starmer, he knows. 338 00:18:34,030 --> 00:18:36,770 Speaker 1: That Musk has the ear of the president and, and 339 00:18:36,770 --> 00:18:39,489 Speaker 1: he's not wanting to sort of get involved too much 340 00:18:39,489 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: in a back and forth, but it maybe it's just a, 341 00:18:42,050 --> 00:18:43,969 Speaker 1: a kind of a taster of what we could see 342 00:18:43,969 --> 00:18:47,449 Speaker 1: more broadly. He certainly has attacked Brussels before, saying there 343 00:18:47,449 --> 00:18:51,089 Speaker 1: should be more power in individual capitals rather than the 344 00:18:51,089 --> 00:18:53,589 Speaker 1: European Union and, you know, I guess. 345 00:18:54,060 --> 00:18:56,689 Speaker 1: It's a cliche, but time is really gonna tell whether 346 00:18:56,689 --> 00:19:00,170 Speaker 1: he's gonna continue to sort of shift his focus occasionally 347 00:19:00,170 --> 00:19:03,409 Speaker 1: across the Atlantic and to try and interfere in European 348 00:19:03,410 --> 00:19:06,649 Speaker 1: Union politics, where it has to be said, regulation is 349 00:19:06,650 --> 00:19:09,089 Speaker 1: a lot tougher than the United States. We certainly have 350 00:19:09,089 --> 00:19:11,930 Speaker 1: free speech in the EU. It's an important part, but 351 00:19:11,930 --> 00:19:14,699 Speaker 1: for many places there are some limits to that, uh, 352 00:19:14,770 --> 00:19:17,329 Speaker 1: including any sort of harm that might be done to people, 353 00:19:17,650 --> 00:19:20,569 Speaker 1: you know, almost the concept of, uh, of, of shouting fire. 354 00:19:20,660 --> 00:19:23,530 Speaker 1: In a crowded theater, there are some limits and that 355 00:19:23,530 --> 00:19:27,689 Speaker 1: may not necessarily align with his libertarian views on free speech. Kate, 356 00:19:27,729 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 1: we know love can be a fickle thing. How sustainable 357 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,089 Speaker 1: is this bromance between Elon Musk and President Trump? You 358 00:19:35,089 --> 00:19:37,449 Speaker 1: talk about his office being in the West Wing right 359 00:19:37,449 --> 00:19:40,439 Speaker 1: next to Donald Trump's. So when you talk to observers, 360 00:19:40,569 --> 00:19:43,899 Speaker 1: do they really believe that this billionaire is going to 361 00:19:43,900 --> 00:19:47,079 Speaker 1: be a fixture in DC for the next 4 years? 362 00:19:47,449 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 1: It's really, it's a really interesting question because I have 363 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,198 Speaker 1: to say personally, I, I was thinking, yeah, this is 364 00:19:54,199 --> 00:19:57,670 Speaker 1: all very interesting and that they'll have a few photo opportunities. 365 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: Elon Musk is paying people a million dollars to vote 366 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 1: for Trump. Eventually, pretty soon, in fact, this is going 367 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: to peter out. Yet here we are, and they are 368 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,550 Speaker 1: still going strong. They seem to be getting on really well, 369 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: as I mentioned in that cabinet. 370 00:20:12,489 --> 00:20:16,130 Speaker 1: earlier this week, Donald Trump essentially gave the floor to 371 00:20:16,130 --> 00:20:20,729 Speaker 1: Elon Musk in that cabinet meeting, not something that he 372 00:20:20,729 --> 00:20:24,609 Speaker 1: would do if he was feeling threatened by him and 373 00:20:24,609 --> 00:20:28,449 Speaker 1: thinking that he was losing his power and his position 374 00:20:28,449 --> 00:20:31,530 Speaker 1: as the, you know, head of the country. I have 375 00:20:31,530 --> 00:20:35,089 Speaker 1: been proved wrong in that so far and speaking to 376 00:20:35,089 --> 00:20:37,699 Speaker 1: analysts and experts here, some say. 377 00:20:38,020 --> 00:20:40,369 Speaker 1: That it was, you know, it is shortsighted to think 378 00:20:40,369 --> 00:20:43,420 Speaker 1: that they will end up falling out because they both 379 00:20:43,420 --> 00:20:46,659 Speaker 1: need each other. This is a symbiotic relationship and it 380 00:20:46,660 --> 00:20:50,069 Speaker 1: is so positive for both of them in terms of 381 00:20:50,069 --> 00:20:51,260 Speaker 1: wealth and power. 382 00:20:51,619 --> 00:20:56,369 Speaker 1: That even if there is some personal friction at some point, 383 00:20:56,500 --> 00:20:59,899 Speaker 1: the greater advantages for them both will probably outweigh that, 384 00:20:59,910 --> 00:21:02,609 Speaker 1: and we could see him as a fixture, some are saying, 385 00:21:02,619 --> 00:21:07,660 Speaker 1: for the full 4 years of Donald Trump's presidency. And 386 00:21:07,660 --> 00:21:10,170 Speaker 1: me and other people who thought that this would all 387 00:21:10,170 --> 00:21:12,069 Speaker 1: be over very quickly could 388 00:21:12,310 --> 00:21:14,510 Speaker 1: proved wrong, because if you look at the example of 389 00:21:14,510 --> 00:21:17,550 Speaker 1: his last term in office, there were several times he 390 00:21:17,550 --> 00:21:21,310 Speaker 1: sacked cabinet secretaries, he got rid of chiefs of staff 391 00:21:21,310 --> 00:21:24,659 Speaker 1: that he felt weren't on his wavelength, but the fact 392 00:21:24,660 --> 00:21:28,910 Speaker 1: is these two men are at the moment having such 393 00:21:28,910 --> 00:21:32,389 Speaker 1: positive influence on each other, that it's likely that it 394 00:21:32,390 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 1: could 395 00:21:32,959 --> 00:21:35,400 Speaker 1: continue. The problem for Donald Trump will be is if 396 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 1: he does decide he's had enough of Elon Musk, he 397 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 1: will be a lot harder to get rid of than 398 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,689 Speaker 1: these political appointees, because he's richer than Donald Trump and 399 00:21:45,689 --> 00:21:49,510 Speaker 1: in some ways more powerful, given he owns the social 400 00:21:49,510 --> 00:21:53,719 Speaker 1: media app X and he is just so wealthy that 401 00:21:53,719 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: he will not be easy to discard if Trump decides 402 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:57,760 Speaker 1: that's what he wants to do. 403 00:21:59,250 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: Before we go, Trent, how vocally do you think Musk 404 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,719 Speaker 1: will share his political views now that the German election 405 00:22:04,719 --> 00:22:09,109 Speaker 1: is over? How concerned should Europe be that Musk may 406 00:22:09,109 --> 00:22:11,939 Speaker 1: be meddling in their affairs over the next 4 years? 407 00:22:12,390 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: I think that the track record of Elon Musk suggests 408 00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,390 Speaker 1: he's not going to go away anytime soon. I think 409 00:22:18,390 --> 00:22:21,109 Speaker 1: for me the bigger question is what sort of happens 410 00:22:21,109 --> 00:22:24,079 Speaker 1: with some of his business ventures across the EU? I mean, 411 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:25,400 Speaker 1: he continues to maintain that. 412 00:22:25,540 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: Factory in Berlin, but we're starting to see some signs 413 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,599 Speaker 1: that maybe this is having some pushback at a consumer level. 414 00:22:32,689 --> 00:22:36,649 Speaker 1: I mean, sales for Tesla across many of the EU markets, uh, 415 00:22:36,689 --> 00:22:40,050 Speaker 1: have fallen considerably since January. Now some analysts will say 416 00:22:40,050 --> 00:22:42,739 Speaker 1: that has a bit to do with a new model 417 00:22:42,739 --> 00:22:45,239 Speaker 1: coming out, but I think there is also a sense that, 418 00:22:45,689 --> 00:22:47,930 Speaker 1: You know, maybe people may not want to purchase a 419 00:22:47,930 --> 00:22:51,290 Speaker 1: car from a founder, from a company who holds these 420 00:22:51,290 --> 00:22:55,569 Speaker 1: views and who is interfering in their election systems, but again, I, 421 00:22:55,650 --> 00:22:58,050 Speaker 1: I guess the question is, does that bother Mark, you know, 422 00:22:58,209 --> 00:23:01,239 Speaker 1: or is he focus now shifting elsewhere? Is he happy 423 00:23:01,239 --> 00:23:04,489 Speaker 1: to kind of absorb some financial losses, uh, in order 424 00:23:04,489 --> 00:23:06,489 Speaker 1: to be able to hold these views and to, to 425 00:23:06,489 --> 00:23:08,650 Speaker 1: have the ear of the president of the own ex? 426 00:23:08,939 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 1: I guess we'll have to wait and see, but I, I, 427 00:23:11,599 --> 00:23:14,099 Speaker 1: if I was a betting man, I would suggest, uh, 428 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,479 Speaker 1: he is not going anywhere, uh, and we will consistently 429 00:23:17,479 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 1: have elections across the 27 members of the EU, uh, 430 00:23:21,770 --> 00:23:23,959 Speaker 1: and I would imagine he would like to have an 431 00:23:23,959 --> 00:23:27,439 Speaker 1: opinion on many of them. Kate, Trent, thank you so 432 00:23:27,439 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 1: much for your insights from both sides of the Atlantic. Thanks, Teresa. 433 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:32,239 Speaker 1: Thank you, Teresa. 434 00:23:32,810 --> 00:23:35,630 Speaker 1: And a reminder you can find Kate's and Trent's reports 435 00:23:35,630 --> 00:23:40,150 Speaker 1: on YouTube and on CNA.Asia. There are also TV episodes 436 00:23:40,150 --> 00:23:43,829 Speaker 1: of CNA Correspondent every Wednesday at 9:30 p.m. Singapore, Hong 437 00:23:43,829 --> 00:23:44,469 Speaker 1: Kong time. 438 00:23:45,239 --> 00:23:50,180 Speaker 1: I'm Teresa Tang. The team behind this week's episode is Balakrishnan, Sayahin, 439 00:23:50,390 --> 00:23:53,829 Speaker 1: Claire Ong, Kristina Robert, and Craig Dale. A new episode 440 00:23:53,829 --> 00:23:56,589 Speaker 1: drops next Wednesday. Join us then. Bye for now.