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Speaker 2: Welcome to the climate conversations with me julie you? Most
Speaker 2: people will by now have heard that the biggest international
Speaker 2: climate conference, cop 27 is taking place this month in
Speaker 2: Sharm el Sheikh in Egypt. Some may even be aware
Speaker 2: the event could be a turning point for the climate
Speaker 2: and the planet.
Speaker 2: But before we delve into what's up for discussion, let's
Speaker 2: try and clear up the basics. What is cop 27
Speaker 2: why is it such a big deal and can it
Speaker 2: actually save the world? We're here to tell you everything
Speaker 2: you need to know about cop is Melissa lo she
Speaker 2: is a research fellow at N. U. S. Center for
Speaker 2: Nature based Climate Solutions. Melissa is only 35 years old
Speaker 2: but she has been to 10 previous cop meetings and
Speaker 2: is attending this year's conference as well.
Speaker 2: Welcome Melissa. Thanks for having me julie
Speaker 2: first things first. What is? So the cop stands for
Speaker 2: the conference of the parties and this primarily refers to
Speaker 2: the U. N. Framework convention on Climate change and so
Speaker 2: parties are meeting for the 27th time this year in
Speaker 2: Sharm el sheikh Egypt. There's a lot of jargon has
Speaker 2: been throwing around at cop events but what we
Speaker 2: Here over and over again is a Paris agreement or
Speaker 2: Paris accord as I believe was signed back in 2015
Speaker 2: on this day. The Paris agreement on climate change enters
Speaker 2: into force. Tell us a bit about what it is
Speaker 2: and why is it still important? The Paris agreement was
Speaker 2: agreed in December 2015
Speaker 2: And what the agreement does it commits all countries to
Speaker 2: reducing the rise in global temperatures to not beyond 1.5°.
Speaker 2: I think the amazing thing about the Paris agreement is
Speaker 2: that it requires all countries unlike its predecessor, the Kyoto Protocol.
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of countries are extremely confident
Speaker 2: that the Paris agreement
Speaker 2: in its current form will take us to where we
Speaker 2: need to be as long as we put forward the
Speaker 2: right targets to get there. In fact, the slogan for
Speaker 2: cop 26 was keeping 1.5 alive. But let's face it melissa,
Speaker 2: we've been increasingly hearing in how the 1.5 degree target
Speaker 2: is fast fading away. Do you think it's still a
Speaker 2: feasible goal? Well, we have to keep our hopes up
Speaker 2: and absolutely
Speaker 2: right. The 1.5 degree window is closing extremely fast and
Speaker 2: we must do more than what we're already doing. And
Speaker 2: so the paris agreement, one of the key things about
Speaker 2: it is also an ambition cycle. So every five years
Speaker 2: countries need to up their targets, meaning they have to
Speaker 2: put forward more ambitious targets. And Singapore has actually submitted
Speaker 2: a new enhanced target this year and we will be
Speaker 2: bringing it to the cop 27
Speaker 2: I think that countries if they're serious about fighting climate
Speaker 2: change and addressing its impacts, they will follow this ambition
Speaker 2: cycle and submit new and better targets every five years goals.
Speaker 2: A year ago, the country's banks, business leaders announced a
Speaker 2: slew of climate plans and pledges, how have those big
Speaker 2: promises progress since? That's a great question because cop 26
Speaker 2: was just last year in November and so were one
Speaker 2: year in and the world has changed tremendously within this year.
Speaker 2: And I think one of the biggest worries is what's
Speaker 2: happening in europe right now. The Russia Ukraine crisis resulting
Speaker 2: in huge energy crunch. I think a lot of countries
Speaker 2: that we think might backslide on their targets simply because
Speaker 2: they're not able to get energy supply for the winter
Speaker 2: coming ahead. We haven't really seen great progress in the
Speaker 2: last one year as countries recover from the covid 19 pandemic,
Speaker 2: hopefully coming out of it better and stronger.
Speaker 2: But it's just one crisis after another. Of course remain
Speaker 2: hopeful and optimistic that we'll get through eventually. But I
Speaker 2: think this year has just been particularly tough if last
Speaker 2: year's cop was the commitment cop where climate pledges and
Speaker 2: targets were set. Many say that this year is the
Speaker 2: implementation cop what are the big objectives this time, expectations
Speaker 2: are really high this year for the cop to deliver
Speaker 2: On something called mitigation ambition under the mitigation work program.
Speaker 2: So this is for countries to raise their ambitions before
Speaker 2: 2030 and why is 2030 important? It's because that's when
Speaker 2: the first round of nationally determined contributions or climate pledges
Speaker 2: are due in 2030. There's a big program called the
Speaker 2: mitigation work program that will take us there. So countries
Speaker 2: are going to agree on a process to get us
Speaker 2: there in 2030
Speaker 1: issues
Speaker 2: Relating to climate adaptation. So if mitigation fails, given that
Speaker 2: the climate will warm and continue to warm with what's
Speaker 2: already been emitted into the atmosphere, we need to think
Speaker 2: about how to enhance climate resilience among the most vulnerable
Speaker 2: of countries. And so climate adaptation is on the table
Speaker 2: at Cop 27 this year.
Speaker 2: There's also the big issue of loss and damage. So
Speaker 2: there are a number of developing countries, particularly small islands,
Speaker 2: that are asking for developed countries to put money towards
Speaker 2: disaster relief, for loss and damage funding so that they
Speaker 2: can make peace with some of their losses that are irreparable.
Speaker 2: And the last issue that is squarely on the table
Speaker 2: is climate finance countries need
Speaker 2: To come up with a new floor of at least
Speaker 2: us $100 billion 2025 onwards. And we're watching eagerly as
Speaker 2: to whether that commitment will take place because I think
Speaker 2: it's really important to build trust and rebuild the trust
Speaker 2: that perhaps has been lost with the lack of progress
Speaker 2: in the last year. Who are the leaders that you're
Speaker 2: most excited to hear from. And I think it's really
Speaker 2: important
Speaker 2: that the heads of states of countries that have submitted
Speaker 2: new pledges from cop 26. So there are only about
Speaker 2: 20 countries that have displayed climate leadership before cop 27
Speaker 2: of course this includes Egypt the host of the cop
Speaker 2: 27 this year. Australia Indonesia being the g 20 chair
Speaker 2: India has also come forward with an updated nationally determined
Speaker 2: contribute
Speaker 2: per the Glasgow climate pack. So I'm really eager to
Speaker 2: hear what these countries have to say, but also the
Speaker 2: large emitters like china and the U. S. And of course,
Speaker 2: I think Singapore will also have a part to play
Speaker 2: at the cop 27 this year, but we know who
Speaker 2: won't be attending this year. This is no longer a
Speaker 2: climate
Speaker 1: conference, this is now a global north green wash
Speaker 2: festival,
Speaker 2: wow some harsh words from the young Swedish activist Greta
Speaker 2: to Hamburg. They're criticizing the global summit as a forum
Speaker 2: for greenwashing mel does she have a point
Speaker 1: here?
Speaker 2: Well, I've been attending cop for a very long time
Speaker 2: and sometimes I dread going as well because it's a
Speaker 2: lot of work. It's a lot of effort on the
Speaker 2: ground to capacity build people talk to the media trying
Speaker 2: to get the complex negotiations untangled for everyone.
Speaker 2: I hesitate to say it's greenwashing. I think it's important
Speaker 2: that we're there. I think what's more important is what
Speaker 2: we do when we leave the cop the cop is
Speaker 2: a platform for negotiations is a place where people go
Speaker 2: and bring their points across, particularly for young people and
Speaker 2: if Greta thunberg were to attend, she would be able
Speaker 2: to inspire a lot of people, but I'm sure she
Speaker 2: just wants to send a very strong message that actually
Speaker 2: the work needs to be happening on the ground.
Speaker 2: Speaking of skeptics, there are those who think cop 27
Speaker 2: will likely disappoint, especially with 2022 now being a typical
Speaker 2: year with recession fears food and energy shortages and the
Speaker 2: war in Ukraine
Speaker 2: Melissa, how concerned are you that the level of ambition
Speaker 2: in Egypt will likely fail to match that in Glasgow
Speaker 2: or would the meeting hold more relevance? You're absolutely spot
Speaker 2: on on that expectations are really high for cop 27
Speaker 2: to meet the same level of ambition
Speaker 2: and goals that the cop 26 presidency put on the table.
Speaker 2: But let's keep in mind this is an african cop
Speaker 2: and I think the focus areas are fairly different from
Speaker 2: what the U. K. Was focusing on and I think
Speaker 2: the U. K has a different set of clout as well.
Speaker 2: Mark Carney was special rap and I believe he managed
Speaker 2: to bring big banks to commit to net zero finance
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 2: I think it's important to know what each court presidency
Speaker 2: brings to the table and what they can do at
Speaker 2: each cop and certainly I feel that if cop 27
Speaker 2: were to be a success, it would deliver on adaptation
Speaker 2: and loss and damage as well as climate finance. I
Speaker 2: believe that cop 26 played a role in driving the
Speaker 2: interest among non party stakeholders. So beyond government. So we
Speaker 2: have a lot of
Speaker 2: said the private sector joining us at cop 26 but
Speaker 2: I think we'll see a different set of participants attending
Speaker 2: cop 27 because they want to drive resilience, they want
Speaker 2: to drive loss and damage payments. And I think all
Speaker 2: of these views are very valid and we have to
Speaker 2: hear them out and there's something at the court. We
Speaker 2: call procedural justice where you have to afford countries and
Speaker 2: voices to be heard
Speaker 2: Even if the outcome and the outcome will be a
Speaker 2: form of compromise. At least people feel they've been given
Speaker 2: a platform to talk about these important issues and work
Speaker 2: towards an end goal. So where do you expect the
Speaker 2: most struggle? The last cop 26 got extended for a
Speaker 2: couple of days. Is that something that you expect a
Speaker 2: cop 27 as well. Yes. The interesting thing about the
Speaker 2: cop is
Speaker 2: that there is a phrase that uses nothing is agreed
Speaker 2: until everything is agreed. So it's a package deal if
Speaker 2: you will and there are many different tracks of negotiations
Speaker 2: happening at the cop at any one point in time
Speaker 2: is extremely confusing. You have to track different agendas and
Speaker 2: basically what happens in the end is a package of
Speaker 2: decisions are put forward to the ministers when they arrive
Speaker 2: in the sec
Speaker 2: week and the ministers will go and evaluate based on
Speaker 2: their own countries interest, but also in the global interest
Speaker 2: and they will decide on some trade offs. And I
Speaker 2: think everybody leaves the car a little bit unhappy because
Speaker 2: if we left extremely happy, we've done something completely wrong
Speaker 2: for the climate. So everybody leaves a bit unhappy because
Speaker 2: it means that we have to make some cuts and
Speaker 2: some changes to our behavior.
Speaker 2: I think where the most contention will happen is the
Speaker 2: adaptation and loss and damage and loss and damage is
Speaker 2: particularly challenging because
Speaker 2: my sense is that if developed countries end up committing
Speaker 2: to this loss and damage funding, it would perhaps mean
Speaker 2: that they've essentially admitted that they've caused climate change. And
Speaker 2: I think that's something really difficult for them to admit
Speaker 2: at the cop level. Perhaps they might give some money elsewhere.
Speaker 2: Denmark for instance, announced it would commit something like 100
Speaker 2: million danish kroner in september this year
Speaker 2: to loss and damage. So that's happening outside of the
Speaker 2: cop and Scotland and Belgium have also individually pledged money
Speaker 2: to help countries offset the damage that have been caused
Speaker 2: by climate change. And in some cases this damage is irreversible.
Speaker 2: And so how do we see an outcome where countries
Speaker 2: don't feel like they have to admit to that responsibility
Speaker 2: and then we should be solutions oriented rather than problem
Speaker 2: oriented when we go to the cops
Speaker 2: Keep listening as I'll be posing more climate-related questions to Melissa,
Speaker 2: some of which have been asked by our followers on
Speaker 2: social media. Alright Melissa, there are some of the questions
Speaker 2: are followers have posed for you and I feel like
Speaker 2: no one can answer this first question better than you
Speaker 2: since you've been to cop 10 times. So for those
Speaker 2: of us who have never been to cop, what's it like?
Speaker 2: It must be pretty intense.
Speaker 2: It is and it's extremely overwhelming. It's your first cop
Speaker 2: and I know it's your first cop. So when you
Speaker 2: go there okay, first thing you have to wear comfortable
Speaker 2: shoes because the court venue is massive and you have
Speaker 2: to walk to different places in your case, it will
Speaker 2: be the media area, but you also want to perhaps
Speaker 2: attend some negotiations like plenary sessions, I'm considered an observer
Speaker 2: to the cop.
Speaker 2: So the National University of Singapore has been accredited since
Speaker 2: 2014 as an official observer. What we do is we
Speaker 2: get a yellow batch and so the different badges of
Speaker 2: the cops allows you into different rooms and for observers,
Speaker 2: we get to go into some of the smaller rooms.
Speaker 2: As long as countries decide that they will allow observers
Speaker 2: in the room for transparency were allowed to sit in
Speaker 2: for and listen to the news
Speaker 2: and quite often we take notes so that we can
Speaker 2: make sense of it a bit later. There are also
Speaker 2: a lot of side events that you can attend at
Speaker 2: the copies are basically like seminar style events that you
Speaker 2: can go listen to interesting speakers and then their pavilions
Speaker 2: that countries set up to showcase the important policies and
Speaker 2: work that they've been doing and perhaps to drive partnerships
Speaker 2: as well.
Speaker 2: And that's actually what I'm most looking forward to is
Speaker 2: the number of people going from Singapore this year has
Speaker 2: increased because this is the first time Singapore will be
Speaker 2: hosting a pavilion at the cop. So the cop is
Speaker 2: really like a big expo almost right. But it's very
Speaker 2: serious because negotiations affect lives negotiations affect the trajectory of
Speaker 2: our emissions. Ultimately, when it comes to climate change, what's
Speaker 2: one thing to look out for a cop that may
Speaker 2: many of us don't know about fossil of the day
Speaker 2: is an award that young people come together and give
Speaker 2: out at the end of each day at six o'clock.
Speaker 2: It's very entertaining because they sing the Jurassic theme park song,
Speaker 2: Somebody dresses up as a T rex. And you know,
Speaker 2: when it happens because it draws a very large crowd
Speaker 2: essentially is a form of a demonstration where young people
Speaker 2: will award a fossil to the top three countries that
Speaker 2: have
Speaker 2: displayed some form of frustrating behavior at the cop. The
Speaker 2: country will be given a fossil that day at the
Speaker 2: end of the two weeks there will be a big
Speaker 2: fossil colossal fossils. Sometimes we call it. It's quite an
Speaker 2: entertaining demonstration by youth. It reflects how closely they tracked
Speaker 2: the negotiations. So I think all countries are usually quite
Speaker 2: on guard because they worry that they become a fossil. Right?
Speaker 2: That's one of the fun side of cop that
Speaker 2: those of us who have been many years we look
Speaker 2: forward to very much because it's hard to deal with
Speaker 2: climate change. I think we just need a little bit
Speaker 2: of comic relief every now and then. Why is Egypt
Speaker 2: hosting cop 27 so controversial. There have been a lot
Speaker 2: of news reports about how Egypt is organizing this cop.
Speaker 2: Some have observed that number one sham el Sheikh is
Speaker 2: not the easiest place to get to. It's a resort town.
Speaker 2: It's really expensive for a lot of
Speaker 2: observers. And the second thing is it appears that Egypt
Speaker 2: is also clamping down on activists. They're not allowing activists
Speaker 2: to attend the cop. Some observers have shared that they
Speaker 2: don't think that this cop will have that procedural justice
Speaker 2: providing the platform for youth voices and strong activist voices.
Speaker 2: And I think interestingly enough this is the first african
Speaker 2: cop since cop 22 which was held in marrakech in
Speaker 2: Morocco in 2016. The year after the paris agreement was adopted.
Speaker 2: And that last cop was also very exciting and interesting
Speaker 2: because it was the U. S. Election that year in
Speaker 2: 2016 and president trump actually became president while we were
Speaker 2: in marrakech which set a different tone all together when
Speaker 2: we were there. So this particular cop I hope it's
Speaker 2: not too controversial but it's a cop that has experienced
Speaker 2: a lot of changes in the last year. So again
Speaker 2: because of the high prices because of the activism clamped down.
Speaker 2: It seems I think these have shown a not so
Speaker 2: great light on the presidency. The U. N. F triple C.
Speaker 2: Executive secretary Patricia espinosa has stepped down after six years
Speaker 2: as the chief of the U. N. Framework Convention on
Speaker 2: climate change. And so this year is a transition year.
Speaker 2: So we have a new successor to the U. N. F. C. C. C.
Speaker 2: Executive secretary is Simon style from Granada and he was
Speaker 2: just appointed in august this year. It remains to be
Speaker 2: seen how effective he will be in steering the cop
Speaker 2: and the outcomes this year. And I think we also
Speaker 2: have interesting
Speaker 2: look ahead because it's been announced already that cop 28
Speaker 2: will be held in U. A. E. So one of
Speaker 2: my biggest worries is that because we already know where
Speaker 2: the next cop is going to be and when it's
Speaker 2: going to happen that countries might feel like oh then
Speaker 2: let's like forward stuff to next year.
Speaker 2: But I hope they don't do that of course who
Speaker 2: gets to decide which country gets to be the next presidency.
Speaker 2: It rotates among the five regions in the world. So
Speaker 2: there's europe there's Asia the Middle East and the Americas
Speaker 2: and so on. Any given country can offer to host
Speaker 2: the cop. I like to liken the cop presidency to
Speaker 2: something like the miss universe. When you are the presidency,
Speaker 2: you have to hold it until you hand over the
Speaker 2: torch to the next person
Speaker 2: genuinely feel a little bit sorry for the UK because
Speaker 2: they've been holding this torch for so long. The cop
Speaker 2: 26 was actually postponed in 2020 because of the pandemic.
Speaker 2: They haven't had an easy task but I think handing
Speaker 2: it over will be a big relief to them
Speaker 2: Up next. You'll hear what Melissa thinks cop 27 means
Speaker 2: for Singapore and what role the country is expected to
Speaker 2: play at the climate conference.
Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Adrian Tan and I'm Christina robert. We are
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Speaker 2: So melissa, let's talk about what cop 27 means for Singapore.
Speaker 2: What role the country is expected to play at the
Speaker 2: climate conference. Singapore is expected to submit enhanced carbon emission
Speaker 2: goals at cop 27.
Speaker 2: Given that it's a country that contributes about 0.1% of
Speaker 2: global greenhouse gas emissions, new climate emissions at cop 27
Speaker 2: mean anything absolutely 0.1% of emissions really isn't very much
Speaker 2: in the global scheme of things. But of course, I
Speaker 2: think it's important that we play our part. We strongly
Speaker 2: believe here in Singapore in the multilateral rules based process
Speaker 2: that is these U. N. Negotiations and so therefore we
Speaker 2: must play an active role if we want to be
Speaker 2: seen as
Speaker 2: it's incredible negotiating party by submitting our enhanced target this
Speaker 2: year as per the Glasgow Climate Pact and what it
Speaker 2: called for countries to revisit and strengthen its targets. I
Speaker 2: think put Singapore in a really good position to encourage
Speaker 2: nudge other parties who haven't done so yet. You would
Speaker 2: have heard that D P. M. Lawrence Wong at the
Speaker 2: opening of the Singapore International Energy Week announced Singapore's revision
Speaker 2: of our NBC, which is now a fixed
Speaker 2: Level target of 60 million tons of emissions in 2030.
Speaker 2: Of course, he also mentioned that we will peak
Speaker 1: earlier before
Speaker 2: that and then come down and it's been expressed as
Speaker 2: a stretch target. And so for me, I'm really looking
Speaker 2: forward to seeing the NDC submitted officially to the U
Speaker 2: N F C C C and to look at the
Speaker 2: specific details as to how we look to achieve this target.
Speaker 2: The other target that we have announced formally as well
Speaker 2: is the net zero by 2050 target. And that's also
Speaker 2: in fact part of the paris agreement
Speaker 2: which calls and encourages countries to submit long term low
Speaker 2: emissions development strategies. And in 2020 Singapore actually was fairly
Speaker 2: noncommittal about this. We said we can achieve net zero
Speaker 2: if the technology is viable by the end of the century,
Speaker 2: there's a bit more pressure because more and more countries
Speaker 2: up in that net zero targets right? There are about
Speaker 2: 53 countries now that have targets by 2050 and most
Speaker 2: of them are net zero. And so Singapore felt that
Speaker 2: we needed to re look at this and because of
Speaker 2: the Article six or international carbon markets that were finalized,
Speaker 2: the rules were finalized last year, cop 26 as well
Speaker 2: as two sets of technologies,
Speaker 2: Carbon capture storage and utilization as well as hydrogen. It
Speaker 2: now looks as if Singapore can at least make a
Speaker 2: strong effort to achieve net zero. Once we exhaust the
Speaker 2: mitigation options, we might buy carbon credits through the international
Speaker 2: frameworks to get to zero in 2050. But I think
Speaker 2: the key really is to try and mitigate as de
Speaker 2: carbonized as much as possible before that.
Speaker 2: And like I said, I think Singapore will play, in
Speaker 2: my opinion, we often play an outsized role at the
Speaker 2: cops because we make effort to understand other countries interests
Speaker 2: at the court meetings and were sometimes described as an
Speaker 2: honest broker or facilitator of outcomes because we can think
Speaker 2: of solutions that might be a bit more palatable or
Speaker 2: appealing to a variety of country.
Speaker 2: For example, Minister graceful last year was asked to co
Speaker 2: facilitate article six negotiations which were really contentious and we
Speaker 2: did a great job. So I think we have track
Speaker 2: record and I think we'll be called upon again. There
Speaker 2: will be plenty of issues and negotiations that's going to
Speaker 2: take place at cop 27. But is there anything in
Speaker 2: particular that would matter for Singapore specifically
Speaker 2: and also for those of us in the region? What
Speaker 2: should we keep a lookout for? Well, I think everything
Speaker 2: is important. I know that's not the right answer but
Speaker 2: I think everything is really important because of the package deal.
Speaker 2: Everything is interconnected. If we dropped the ball on for
Speaker 2: example adaptation and loss and damage which is really important
Speaker 2: to a large number of developing least developed countries, then
Speaker 2: we really haven't won even if Singapore other countries got
Speaker 2: what they wanted.
Speaker 2: The world suffers planet suffers a really key outcome for
Speaker 2: us not just in Singapore but also the region. Singapore
Speaker 2: being in Southeast Asia is adaptation is lost and damaged.
Speaker 2: Many of our neighboring countries have many people living along
Speaker 2: the coastlines and we've already seen some terrible effects of
Speaker 2: climate change. I think Philippines is a good example every
Speaker 2: year during the cop is typhoon season.
Speaker 2: It hits home because our Philippine negotiators will be at
Speaker 2: the cop and there'll be sometimes in tears you just
Speaker 2: feel for them. You want to do something about it.
Speaker 2: So I think it's important to situate ourselves as Singaporeans
Speaker 2: within the larger context of the region and also the world,
Speaker 2: we can't say to have one if one thing or
Speaker 2: the other doesn't get agreed. So what do you yourself
Speaker 2: hope to see a cop 27 and what would make
Speaker 2: it a successful outcome in your eyes?
Speaker 2: That's a tough question. A lot of hopes are on
Speaker 2: the adaptation and loss and damage agenda item, but I
Speaker 2: think personally that the mitigation work program is also important.
Speaker 2: Climate finance delivery is going to be key in order
Speaker 2: to get to a successful outcome. Perhaps that trust has
Speaker 2: to be rebuilt and where better to do this and
Speaker 2: in africa. All right, Mel, thank you so much for
Speaker 2: your time. I really enjoyed talking to you. You're welcome julie.
Speaker 2: Well hopefully countries can put political differences aside and come
Speaker 2: together to address a common existential threat. It's a difficult
Speaker 2: task for sure. But if the hope and optimism of
Speaker 2: people like melissa is anything to go by, we may
Speaker 2: still have a chance. The team behind the climate conversations
Speaker 2: is Jacqueline chan Joanne chan Danieli Christina robert and me julie,
Speaker 2: you
Speaker 2: do like and subscribe to this podcast so you can
Speaker 2: catch the next episode. Thank you for listening. Bye for
Speaker 2: now