Speaker 1: Hey, it's Sonia. Welcome to another episode of Men, explain
Speaker 1: here's wishing you happy International Women's Day.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: Today we're talking about
Speaker 1: the dreaded topic, settling down. I mean, I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: like after the chinese new year lunar new year time,
Speaker 1: we were you know, thrown at a lot of questions
Speaker 1: when you're getting married and having kids when you're settling down.
Speaker 1: Thankfully I was overseas. So I really avoided all those questions.
Speaker 1: But to answer that question, today is my special guest.
Speaker 1: Tell us more about yourself.
Speaker 2: Well before that, you know, I'm not here to make
Speaker 2: any announcement just to be clear,
Speaker 1: just to be clear.
Speaker 2: Well, for those of you watching this episode, my name
Speaker 2: is and before joining industry, I was actually a full
Speaker 2: time digital marketer at a tech startup. And because of
Speaker 2: the local talent search competition called the Star Search 2019,
Speaker 2: I joined Mediacorp full time and right now I'm a
Speaker 2: full time actor.
Speaker 1: Very, very nice. I mean in 2019, that was the
Speaker 1: year where you launched into, you know the scene and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And it was the first time that
Speaker 1: I saw you on stage as well as like damn,
Speaker 1: this guy is tall. It's been two years since we
Speaker 1: met and I forgot how tall you are. Welcome back.
Speaker 1: Um You know, we've been chatting with you on zoom online.
Speaker 1: So good to see you back in person. A lot
Speaker 1: has happened since 2019.
Speaker 1: I still remember the moment we were on stage and
Speaker 1: you're like, this is the song. He's going to be
Speaker 1: like a star Like he's going to be on the
Speaker 1: countdown show, like, how did you feel then? And then
Speaker 1: now a couple of years later being in the industry already,
Speaker 2: That was crazy. I remember the day I met you
Speaker 2: backstage and I was like, oh my God, that's the
Speaker 2: DJ that always listened to, I was like, oh my God,
Speaker 2: that's her. And she was so friendly. I was like,
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, hi there. I was like, you know, busy,
Speaker 2: you know, just trying to introduce myself and back down
Speaker 2: on stage. I still remember it was only the second
Speaker 2: month of me joining the industry.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that
Speaker 1: must have been nerve wracking.
Speaker 2: Exactly, and everything just happened so quickly in a frenzy
Speaker 2: and I actually, frankly speaking, I didn't know what I
Speaker 2: was doing most of the time.
Speaker 1: I was like,
Speaker 2: when my manager asked me to go to this place
Speaker 2: and do something else, like, okay, I'll just do it.
Speaker 1: Just go, just go,
Speaker 1: no questions asked.
Speaker 2: Exactly. Most of them not really processing. Not only until, like,
Speaker 2: you know, in a few months ago, a few months
Speaker 2: back and when I started, you know, all the dust
Speaker 2: settles and, and I started to think about, oh, I'm
Speaker 2: a full time actor now.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. How is that feeling? Because, you know, obviously
Speaker 1: you got thrown into this and being a full time
Speaker 1: actor is so different from your
Speaker 1: previous profession, right, well, what do your friends and family
Speaker 1: have to say? I mean this is a long way
Speaker 1: to catch up by the way we haven't spoken. Yeah,
Speaker 2: well, fortunately the first thing is that my family is
Speaker 2: really supportive of this career switch.
Speaker 2: I did consult many people, including my family and my
Speaker 2: then manager, ex colleague and also many other close friends
Speaker 2: and all of them are very supportive of this change,
Speaker 2: you know, is actually once in a lifetime opportunity. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And many people actually wouldn't get to try this. So
Speaker 2: I was telling myself, okay, hey, why not just give
Speaker 2: this a shot and see how it goes. You know,
Speaker 2: a few years later I've been adapting and I've been
Speaker 2: quick to adapt. So called the pandemic, you know, sort
Speaker 2: of help to ease the pace of adapting a lot.
Speaker 2: So two years and I think I'm somewhat adapted to
Speaker 2: this new career and finding my I would say my
Speaker 2: so called path in this industry. Yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure. I mean it's all about branding personality, you know,
Speaker 1: so many things you have to consider as well on
Speaker 1: top of that. And congratulations because coming up very soon
Speaker 1: we've got the Star Awards,
Speaker 1: congratulations and best newcomer or what was the title that
Speaker 1: you were
Speaker 2: the best newcomer was was last year, I got that
Speaker 2: award last year and this year I'm nominated for the
Speaker 2: best supporting male male actor
Speaker 1: role. So
Speaker 2: that was a really an honor because two years in
Speaker 2: with zero background acting to be nominated. It's a great honor. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean congratulations for that. Seriously. I think it's a
Speaker 1: huge accomplishment and you must feel so good about it
Speaker 1: as well or relieved or surprised or shocked. I don't
Speaker 1: know
Speaker 2: when I, when I woke up that morning um you
Speaker 2: know my manager gave me a call and then I
Speaker 2: was like, oh
Speaker 2: do I need to be at somewhere again? Like in
Speaker 2: a frenzy mode, I need to be somewhere again. Am
Speaker 2: I late for something again? I don't remember. I was like,
Speaker 2: no it cannot be. I'm like okay. And then she
Speaker 2: calls her, hey ya,
Speaker 2: I have a piece of good news for you as well, okay,
Speaker 2: you're nominated for what I just
Speaker 1: like scream
Speaker 2: so loudly in my bedroom, There's not no one, no
Speaker 2: one else in my house.
Speaker 1: So it's always like this is our best moments, no
Speaker 1: one's there to see it.
Speaker 2: So I was so happy and overjoyed. I really felt
Speaker 2: like as if I won the award
Speaker 1: already.
Speaker 2: So the first thing I did was to call my
Speaker 2: parents and my family and tell them the good news
Speaker 2: and and they were happy they were, which they also
Speaker 2: woken up by my news as well and
Speaker 1: they are based in Malaysia, they're not you, you're doing
Speaker 1: a long distance with your family right now. Semi
Speaker 2: long distance years.
Speaker 1: Hopefully they get to reunite with you know at some
Speaker 1: point you must be missing them quite.
Speaker 2: Yes. Yes fortunately I think I just met them shortly
Speaker 2: after lunar new year. I went back for a few
Speaker 2: days you know in between work and stuff so
Speaker 2: I'm glad that I'm able to catch up with them
Speaker 2: after what two years of not one but two
Speaker 1: years of not physically seeing your family. That must be
Speaker 1: so damn tough. Yeah but speaking of which you went
Speaker 1: back to visit your family during the festive period? Any
Speaker 1: talk about a time when you're settling down, Did I
Speaker 1: ask you these things? Is your family typically like that
Speaker 1: or your extended family?
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay so fortunately this time around when I go
Speaker 2: back it's way past the usual visiting, you know schedule
Speaker 2: of lunar new year.
Speaker 1: So I kind
Speaker 2: of like you know I mean I mean I wasn't
Speaker 2: a sabbatical
Speaker 1: alright fire by the way, this is my first official
Speaker 1: workday back.
Speaker 1: Welcome back. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So so during the lunar new year period I'm mostly not,
Speaker 2: mostly
Speaker 2: all the family I've seen is really just my parents right?
Speaker 2: Ah and then they know that you know I'm not
Speaker 2: in a hurry to settle down because you know you
Speaker 2: know
Speaker 2: Before joining industry, maybe they have some thoughts on me
Speaker 2: setting down before turning 3030 is an arbitrary age right?
Speaker 2: But after Johnny industry they have no hopes of that
Speaker 2: of that happening soon because
Speaker 2: I think they do hold the traditional views of that,
Speaker 2: you know, being an industry men that you can't set
Speaker 2: it down early, you know, for the sake of like
Speaker 2: maybe your fans or your viewers or people who love
Speaker 2: you on screen, they wouldn't want you to, you know,
Speaker 2: get into a relationship that quickly that fast. So to them,
Speaker 2: they sort of like accepted the fact I might not
Speaker 2: settle early, so that's why during this,
Speaker 2: they have not given me any pressure at all, but
Speaker 2: my other sister is taking the full brunt of it.
Speaker 2: I hope she's not watching this, but
Speaker 1: She's definitely watching this. I mean you are 29 now, right?
Speaker 1: And um you know, you mentioned the whole thing about,
Speaker 1: you know turning 30 and then society has this certain
Speaker 1: impression like you have to have your life sorted out
Speaker 1: by the time you're 30, you you should be married,
Speaker 1: you should have kids. I don't know, like back then
Speaker 1: when I was in school, like
Speaker 1: Some people are like, yeah, by by 27 between, I'm
Speaker 1: going to be like married and I'm going to be
Speaker 1: a parent by 30? Well guess what guys, I'm 30
Speaker 1: right now, nothing has happened. Neither of those have happened.
Speaker 1: So I just wanted to address that a little bit.
Speaker 1: Do you think that it's just society's view, like, do
Speaker 1: we necessarily need to
Speaker 1: conform to that? Is that still a thing even,
Speaker 2: you know, I once subscribed to this like singaporean blueprint of,
Speaker 2: you know you go through school and then when you graduate,
Speaker 2: you know for guys maybe it's like mid twenties, early
Speaker 2: twenties from his early twenties and then
Speaker 2: you find your sweetheart university and then you B. T. O. First.
Speaker 1: Right? Right?
Speaker 2: And then you go and buy the ring and then
Speaker 2: you do the engagement stuff and by 27 and eight
Speaker 2: you have your first house, right? And then you settle down. Right?
Speaker 2: So that's the
Speaker 1: standard standard
Speaker 2: blueprint for any Singapore meant to follow through. Right? Um
Speaker 2: So previously I was a strong believer of the outside
Speaker 2: because all my friends are all doing the same thing
Speaker 1: now really. Your current group of friends?
Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. It's not uncommon to to hear your friends
Speaker 2: saying that oh I'm meeting with my girlfriend and I
Speaker 2: met in university or even before that. So
Speaker 2: so it's not uncommon to hear a lot of my
Speaker 2: friends sitting down. So even as of today, since you
Speaker 2: know I've skipped the blueprint altogether, it's not uncommon to
Speaker 2: hear my friends, you know,
Speaker 2: raising their second or expecting their second or like you know,
Speaker 2: moving to their own Bto flats right now at my age.
Speaker 2: So I would say that this thing is
Speaker 2: I'm not sure why society is sort of put an
Speaker 2: arbitrary age of 30. It could be that's the question
Speaker 2: I would ask you do you feel of the pressure
Speaker 2: as a woman to just simply because there is a
Speaker 2: biological clock that's ticking away. Do you feel that the
Speaker 2: pressure is there? So 30 isn't exactly an arbitrary number,
Speaker 2: it's more like
Speaker 2: they want you to settle down and have your kids
Speaker 2: and so
Speaker 1: no, I totally agree with all the tables are turned
Speaker 1: and suddenly he became the interviewer asked me, asked me
Speaker 1: asked me so, I mean I don't disagree with you.
Speaker 1: I think that you know there is a general
Speaker 1: consensus out there, people think like, okay maybe you've got
Speaker 1: to think of your health and your fertility and all
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff as well because
Speaker 1: You know, technically after the age of 30, you know,
Speaker 1: you're considered if I'm not wrong. One of my friends
Speaker 1: who has a kid, she had a kid at 35.
Speaker 1: Um and it's considered a geriatric pregnancy
Speaker 2: means
Speaker 1: okay, you know, geriatric means old,
Speaker 2: right? Literally
Speaker 1: At 35 apparently is considered geriatric pregnancy already. That means
Speaker 1: you're like towards the tail end of your, I don't know,
Speaker 1: but I think technology and healthcare nowadays are changing that
Speaker 1: perception a little bit.
Speaker 1: However, I mean I've had, I've had questions from my
Speaker 1: family obviously and my extended family as well um you know,
Speaker 1: asking where is Sonja, you know, get settling down, when
Speaker 1: is she gonna she's still so busy doing her thing
Speaker 1: and like you know seemingly traveling and doing all that
Speaker 1: kind of stuff, like is she going to have kids
Speaker 1: at some point? Um
Speaker 1: And to me, I feel like because of the nature
Speaker 1: of our industry, I feel like it's less
Speaker 1: pressurizing to settle down, have kids, I don't know whether
Speaker 1: you agree with me, but you know, I feel like
Speaker 1: there's so much more in our career that we have
Speaker 1: yet to explore or experience or do that at this point.
Speaker 1: I can't even keep a dog. I mean, can you,
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? Like you can't even have
Speaker 1: a pet right at this point. So that's my really,
Speaker 1: that is how I judge things. If I can take
Speaker 1: care of a dog, I cannot take care of a
Speaker 1: kid or a husband that's for sure. So therefore I
Speaker 1: feel like I need, you know, a partner in life
Speaker 1: who is also in the same thought process, the same phase,
Speaker 1: you know, eventually you want to work there, but maybe
Speaker 1: not right now and I don't think, I think at
Speaker 1: 30 there's still so much of life left to live
Speaker 2: of course before this chat actually, I'm not sure if
Speaker 2: you're a believer of the whole society construct of social
Speaker 2: construct of marriage and family and stuff. So
Speaker 2: I don't know, you seem to me that I thought
Speaker 2: you're a nonbeliever, but after this shot, I felt that
Speaker 2: you have some plans
Speaker 1: that, you know, I think it's a mix, you know,
Speaker 1: because I think some of us, I recognize that sometimes
Speaker 1: we are talking through a lens where we're a little
Speaker 1: bit more fortunate to be say more financially stable at
Speaker 1: a certain age, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean sometimes when you look at it compared to
Speaker 1: our peers or people who have not started working so early,
Speaker 1: um perhaps we have more financial freedom or stability or
Speaker 1: you know, and I recognize that we're looking at it
Speaker 1: from a more privileged standpoint, but at the same time
Speaker 1: because people need to, you know, get their house or
Speaker 1: they need to get a B T. O and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. And I think that's also very important to
Speaker 1: be a homeowner and stuff and if
Speaker 1: you're able to do that together as a couple like honesty,
Speaker 1: that's totally fine as well.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm kind of like a typical Capricorn, I
Speaker 1: want to be independent, all that stuff. So it's like
Speaker 1: just the way that really so in that case, what
Speaker 1: is your definition of success and stability then, since you're
Speaker 1: already approaching
Speaker 1: 30
Speaker 2: you raise a really good point just now. You mentioned about,
Speaker 2: you know, financial stability and you know, the freedom of
Speaker 2: doing things.
Speaker 2: You know, my definition of success used to be achieving
Speaker 2: my life ambition right? In my early twenties, I was
Speaker 2: this hot headed passionate young guy in tech and you know,
Speaker 2: I was following people like steve jobs, Mark Zuckerberg. So
Speaker 2: my life motto back there in my life ambition was
Speaker 2: to make a dent in the universe, right? So I
Speaker 2: want to leave a legacy, you know, after I passed
Speaker 2: and of course try to you know, impact millions of
Speaker 2: lives and not just like, you know, doing something small.
Speaker 2: So that was the young young me in the twenties, right?
Speaker 2: But eventually after I make the career switch, which I
Speaker 2: did not expect it happening, I look at success in
Speaker 2: a very different life right now.
Speaker 2: So what I see is that there are two parts
Speaker 2: to it, right? One is definitely financially, you want to
Speaker 2: be stable, you want to be free, you want to
Speaker 2: be abundant so that you can make a lot of
Speaker 2: decisions that's not tied down financially. Of course I'm speaking
Speaker 2: from like it's a privilege to have the ability to
Speaker 2: make choices without being tied down financially. For the second
Speaker 2: part of the success actually, I want to bring a
Speaker 2: bit more about interpersonal relationships with families, your partners, your
Speaker 2: loved ones, your pets even
Speaker 2: I feel that there's also a part of it should
Speaker 2: contribute to what you define as success. No matter how
Speaker 2: big of achievement you have made on earth you would
Speaker 2: want there to be a group of people or someone
Speaker 2: to share your success or happiness with. So I feel
Speaker 2: that interpersonal relationship is also something that, you know, I've
Speaker 2: worked
Speaker 2: hard to, to build towards it and our factor in
Speaker 2: as one of their success. So, you know, relationships, family
Speaker 2: relationships with my partners, loved one siblings as well, all
Speaker 2: grouped them lump them together as like what I define
Speaker 2: as success?
Speaker 1: No, I honestly couldn't agree more like seriously, this,
Speaker 1: this international Women's Day, I think it's more than just,
Speaker 1: you know, celebrating us as women and as individuals. I
Speaker 1: think
Speaker 1: that we share a lot of similar views as well,
Speaker 1: even as men as women and we all celebrate kind
Speaker 1: of like the same things, essentially the concept of success
Speaker 1: is changing so much and it's ever evolving, right? And
Speaker 1: I like the point that you brought up about how
Speaker 1: we need to focus on, like not just
Speaker 1: love life relationships but also relationships in all aspects and facets.
Speaker 1: And
Speaker 1: I think during my sabbatical there was one thing that
Speaker 1: I really tried to focus on two because as you know,
Speaker 1: in this industry you're like constantly, sometimes you workout hours,
Speaker 1: you work for months, you're filming and doing so many
Speaker 1: things
Speaker 1: that perhaps you feel you neglect your family or your
Speaker 1: personal relationships, right? You're always like hustling, hustling, hustling, I
Speaker 1: want to do this, I want to take up this
Speaker 1: project and stuff and then years have gone by and
Speaker 1: then you realize like, oh damn, like I realized I
Speaker 1: didn't spend enough time, I don't know, quality time with
Speaker 1: my family and my friends. And it it got me
Speaker 1: very emotional because my parents are getting old and you know,
Speaker 1: they are approaching their late sixties and I'm like, oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, like I want to spend more time with them,
Speaker 1: but yeah, so since you're you're on that topic and
Speaker 1: you've defined your success, um what's going to happen? Like
Speaker 1: when you hit 30 Do you think you feel any
Speaker 1: different moving from your twenties? Your thirties? I'll tell you,
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what my take is because I just
Speaker 1: turned 30 so I'll tell you, I'll tell you how
Speaker 1: I felt. But you tell me first, yeah.
Speaker 2: Do
Speaker 1: You think anything will be different when you hit the 3?
Speaker 1: Oh
Speaker 2: when, when I'm in my early twenties, I used to
Speaker 2: think that 30 is a very, very old age, like
Speaker 2: by 30 I should have been like this, this this
Speaker 2: I should own this, this, this, you know, I should
Speaker 2: be this and that. So turning thirty's back then to
Speaker 2: me was scary thought like, oh my God, 30 fuse
Speaker 2: Old. Big. Yeah, exactly. But right now I'm at the
Speaker 2: edge of like reaching 30. Actually feel that, you know,
Speaker 2: 30 is really
Speaker 2: The point where all the good things happen. I feel,
Speaker 2: so I'm even more excited to hit 30. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's just an arbitrary number of a number of years
Speaker 2: you
Speaker 1: live,
Speaker 2: but I feel that
Speaker 2: there will be a lot more exciting stuff happening in
Speaker 2: my thirties than in my twenties because in my twenties
Speaker 2: there's a lot more insecurities figure a lot more uncertainties,
Speaker 2: a lot more, anxieties, you're not really sure who you
Speaker 2: want to be and you're still trying things out, whereas
Speaker 2: going to my thirties, I feel that I'm going in
Speaker 2: with a very stable choice or a stable path that's
Speaker 2: a stable,
Speaker 1: comfortable, more
Speaker 2: Comfortable with myself. And, and also there'll be a lot
Speaker 2: more exciting things that there is going to happen so
Speaker 2: that I'm more excited about my, my thirties compared to
Speaker 2: what I thought I would be in my early 20s.
Speaker 1: So what was something you were insecure about in your 20's,
Speaker 1: if you don't mind sharing?
Speaker 2: I think a lot of it has to be tied
Speaker 2: down to my career, I think every night, you know,
Speaker 2: you lose sleep over thinking like, okay, is this the
Speaker 2: right thing to do? Or like in my, in the
Speaker 2: right path? Or should I be attempting to do something
Speaker 2: else because you're just so afraid of losing your youth
Speaker 2: on something that's not worthwhile, right?
Speaker 2: You're so afraid that, you know, you're lagging behind because
Speaker 2: for the 25 years of my education, I have been
Speaker 2: always been worried like I'm lagging behind my peers, right?
Speaker 2: So straight out of the gate of education system, you
Speaker 2: want to make sure that you're on par, you know,
Speaker 2: or like you're not lagging behind. So I think that
Speaker 2: crippling fear is what that holds you back to really
Speaker 2: explore different paths, but
Speaker 2: after a while you realize that, hey,
Speaker 2: the competition is really not with the people beside you,
Speaker 2: it's just with yourself
Speaker 1: Exactly and how you
Speaker 1: comparing, sorry to interrupt, but comparing yourself to others brings,
Speaker 1: you know happiness.
Speaker 2: Exactly. Exactly. So, so I think in my early twenties,
Speaker 2: that's a lot of that, like, oh my God, my
Speaker 2: my friends are in the banks, you know, they're all
Speaker 2: from business schools. They're doing really, really flying high flyer
Speaker 2: lives
Speaker 1: already, first kid. Exactly.
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, what am I doing here? Still like
Speaker 2: bumming around? Yeah. So, so there's a lot of, I
Speaker 2: would say a lot of insecurities and anxieties that stretches
Speaker 2: into like a lot of sleepless nights. So I think
Speaker 2: that's a lot of that. And reaching the late twenties,
Speaker 2: there's a lot more reassurance. Like, hey, it's okay. I
Speaker 2: can take my time. I can be in my own
Speaker 2: race and I just need to know where I want
Speaker 2: to head to
Speaker 2: and I just need to know what's being returned in
Speaker 2: my eulogy. Right? So
Speaker 1: wait, that escalators perfectly what happened?
Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, when, when me and my friends always
Speaker 2: discuss like the meaning of life, we love to have
Speaker 2: this kind of discussions. Maybe it's a quarter life crisis
Speaker 2: or maybe a mid life crisis. I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: It's actually it's a weekly crisis for us. For me
Speaker 1: and my girlfriends, we sit down for hours and we
Speaker 1: talk about the meaning of life, but please tell me
Speaker 1: your meaning of life. I'm down.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, in that case then then we will say that,
Speaker 2: you know, to find the answer to that. You know,
Speaker 2: if we just start from the end, right? And just
Speaker 2: say that at the end, what do you want people
Speaker 2: to think about you? I think of you
Speaker 2: at the deathbed. Um, what do you want people to,
Speaker 2: to write on your eulogy? Right.
Speaker 1: So from
Speaker 2: there then you think, I mean it's a bit morbid to,
Speaker 2: to start
Speaker 1: your work
Speaker 2: today. But I think that's how you can think back
Speaker 2: and you know, work backwards and think, okay, what do
Speaker 2: I really want to achieve in this short few decades
Speaker 2: on earth? Right? So I think that's, that's how we
Speaker 2: got the reassurance and felt a lot more calm and
Speaker 2: at peace with ourselves to know that, you know, we
Speaker 2: know what we're going for and we're comfortable with our
Speaker 2: own pace
Speaker 1: for sure. I mean, I know some friends who are young,
Speaker 1: you know, around your age or even younger who already
Speaker 1: know that they want to be a dad, like they
Speaker 1: already know that that's their life goal eventually they want
Speaker 1: to raise their kids and stuff like that. So, you know,
Speaker 1: the thing about it is I think for, for society,
Speaker 1: there's not as much pressure on men to settle down.
Speaker 1: Like you mentioned earlier on about the biological clock and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. But
Speaker 1: um, to me like men aged like fine wine or
Speaker 1: something like, I don't know, like you guys get more
Speaker 1: attractive when you get older so why? That's so unfair.
Speaker 1: I swear like the moment, like we hit our mid
Speaker 1: thirties and was like, oh your shelf did what expiry
Speaker 1: date is here or something. I don't know what people say.
Speaker 1: All these like typical things that people say, but then
Speaker 1: for men, when
Speaker 1: you guys get older, they're like, well he's getting so
Speaker 1: distinguished looking or like
Speaker 1: he looks so much
Speaker 2: better.
Speaker 1: That's why the
Speaker 2: 40s. Yeah. Actually I feel it's
Speaker 2: it is quite a
Speaker 1: double standard, right? It's unfair. It's so unfair. Sorry, sorry,
Speaker 2: I spoke so long that I didn't ask you about your,
Speaker 2: what do you think of you being in your 30s?
Speaker 2: You just passed?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so to answer your question earlier. Um so yeah,
Speaker 1: I just turned 30 recently and
Speaker 1: to be honest, I woke up on the day of
Speaker 1: my birthday and felt the same, I didn't feel any different.
Speaker 1: I don't know why because
Speaker 1: Some of my friends who turned 30, I think it's
Speaker 1: the concept of it, like you changed the digits of
Speaker 1: your the first digit of your age. Yeah, and it
Speaker 1: feels huge, right? And some of them had meltdowns. Like
Speaker 1: they're like, Oh my God, like what am I doing
Speaker 1: with live at 30?
Speaker 1: But I think also coupled together with the fact that
Speaker 1: I've been working for a very long time as you
Speaker 1: would know if you've been watching this show for a
Speaker 1: very long time, you know that
Speaker 1: I love working and I tie a lot of myself
Speaker 1: with with that, which sometimes is not very healthy as well.
Speaker 1: But I think due to the fact that I've been
Speaker 1: working for so long, um it almost doesn't feel like
Speaker 1: turning 30 was even a thing or an event to
Speaker 1: me anymore, but as I went into my sabbatical during
Speaker 1: gen in fact I had more time to think about
Speaker 1: it
Speaker 1: And I started writing in my journal. I still write
Speaker 1: journals sometimes, like just like as a reflective practice and
Speaker 1: sometimes I read back at it, I'm like you're such
Speaker 1: a stupid bitch. Like when I read back and some
Speaker 1: of my entries. But as I reflected on turning 30
Speaker 1: a little bit more.
Speaker 1: I think my focus started to shift towards making sure
Speaker 1: that my parents, my family, my immediate family has a
Speaker 1: better life moving forward and how do I assure that
Speaker 1: that can happen? I don't know, it just, it was
Speaker 1: a sudden shift and that's all I want to focus
Speaker 1: on in the coming year
Speaker 1: because I think I focused too much on my career
Speaker 1: and myself like myself
Speaker 1: um development in my career over the past like few years,
Speaker 1: especially in the recent like 56 years that everything's going
Speaker 1: by in a flash and you don't stop to smell
Speaker 1: the roses at all. So yeah, that was, that was
Speaker 1: my realization turning 30. That time goes by super fast.
Speaker 1: Don't waste another
Speaker 2: minute. That
Speaker 1: was my realization.
Speaker 2: Do you feel that, you know, since maybe when you're
Speaker 2: younger in their early twenties of you joining industry, you
Speaker 2: already knew because you always come off to me as
Speaker 2: a person who,
Speaker 2: who knows exactly what you want in life and you
Speaker 2: have a very clear direction and therefore you go out
Speaker 2: there and live life to the fullest, right? So I'm
Speaker 2: sure a lot of people who are watching this video
Speaker 2: envious of the life you're living. So I'm just curious.
Speaker 2: I'm just curious. Like, do you really have a very
Speaker 2: clear goal and direction in what you want to do
Speaker 2: with your life or?
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know, it's so funny because I know everyone
Speaker 1: thinks that of me, I mean for some reason, um
Speaker 1: I am very driven person when it comes to work. Okay,
Speaker 1: that that is for sure. Um I do set goals
Speaker 1: for myself, but this year I didn't, funnily enough, I
Speaker 1: didn't set any goals in the beginning of the year.
Speaker 2: Make your resolutions.
Speaker 1: I'm just going to live my life this year. My
Speaker 1: goal is to live my life. That's for sure. Of course,
Speaker 1: in a measured real life, you know, money is finite.
Speaker 1: Like we cannot just go, can't just enjoy like every
Speaker 1: single day we've got to come back and hustle,
Speaker 1: but I think, you know, it's okay sometimes to be
Speaker 1: in between. Um I read this somewhere recently in a book,
Speaker 1: being in between sometimes, you know, you you panic because
Speaker 1: you're like, I'm neither here nor there, I'm not at
Speaker 1: the place that I wanted to be and I don't
Speaker 1: know where I'm supposed to be and I don't know
Speaker 1: what I want in life. But I think the fact
Speaker 1: of the matter is that every phase of life that
Speaker 1: you move into, or every year that goes by
Speaker 1: what you want, kind of changes in a way, like
Speaker 1: you may be very clear, like, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I want to do this with my career in the
Speaker 1: next two years, so I want to be a mom
Speaker 1: by the time, I don't know, 35 or whatever, but
Speaker 1: as the years come by, it's okay for the things
Speaker 1: that you want to change, I feel, but that's my
Speaker 1: take on it. So, you know, you may agree or disagree,
Speaker 1: but I think sometimes taking it as it comes,
Speaker 1: puts less mental pressure on yourself, you know,
Speaker 1: and stop comparing yourself to people. I think that's the
Speaker 1: most important thing.
Speaker 2: Number one thing I
Speaker 1: want to switch gears a bit, enjoy attention to, to
Speaker 1: a quote that was actually quite infamous um that went
Speaker 1: all over online. Now there was an infamous dialogue between
Speaker 1: the late Mr lee kuan, Yew and Miss Joan Sim.
Speaker 1: It was, she was then PhD student in NTU he
Speaker 1: urged Miss him not to waste time with a PhD anymore,
Speaker 1: that getting a boyfriend or partner is more important and
Speaker 1: satisfying than your PhD. Well, I mean he didn't say
Speaker 1: with any malicious intent obviously right? But it's sort of
Speaker 1: casual words maybe in the past, you know, of a
Speaker 1: past mindset that could linger on and I don't know
Speaker 1: whether some of that mindset still is around. What do
Speaker 1: you think?
Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe, maybe when he said that, you
Speaker 2: know that morning he had a meeting about birth rates
Speaker 2: in Singapore. So that triggered him the afternoon to I
Speaker 2: don't know, I'm just giving you something while I'm just
Speaker 2: letting my imagination run wild, but please don't come after me.
Speaker 2: I think of course, I think it's a passing remark
Speaker 2: that he didn't expect it to have such a big impact.
Speaker 2: It ties back to a lot to what you have
Speaker 2: just said. Like everyone has their own path and everyone
Speaker 2: has their own choices and there isn't really like is
Speaker 2: this better or is that better? And I feel that
Speaker 2: everyone has their own choice to live maybe that that
Speaker 2: girl who's doing the PhD might even want to settle
Speaker 2: down and have kids, Maybe she
Speaker 1: moment maybe she didn't want to. Yeah, I
Speaker 2: would say that that's not her priority and and for
Speaker 2: the fact that the academy is super important, okay, like
Speaker 2: contributing to like science and technology advancement is super important
Speaker 2: to our society as well. Yeah. I would just say
Speaker 2: that everyone has has their own path. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I've seen, you know, women who can have it
Speaker 1: all the career, the education and the family
Speaker 1: eventually at some point, right?
Speaker 2: I
Speaker 1: mean, maybe be my guest again in five years. We'll see.
Speaker 1: We'll see. We'll see whether I popped the baby by then.
Speaker 1: But I really don't know
Speaker 2: important announcement.
Speaker 1: No, no, no.
Speaker 1: Anyway, you know, obviously you mentioned earlier on as well
Speaker 1: about reaching a point in life where some of your
Speaker 1: friends were settling down having kids and all that. And
Speaker 1: do you hang out with them as you know, with,
Speaker 1: with their kids as well too? Or? Yeah, I do.
Speaker 1: I do. How do you how does that make you feel?
Speaker 1: Just curious?
Speaker 2: I don't know. It's fun to be this, this person
Speaker 2: to go in and just play with the baby. You know,
Speaker 2: you can
Speaker 1: leave them there and go home after that. Exactly,
Speaker 2: Exactly. You have all the
Speaker 1: fun. Yeah
Speaker 2: minus the diapers changing minus the crying in the midnight everything.
Speaker 2: So it's like you only enjoy the fun part. So
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, that's really good. You know, occasionally
Speaker 2: on his birthday or like on christmas, you should buy
Speaker 2: a tour and just play the baby. I think that's
Speaker 2: like the best part of our say
Speaker 2: Sudo parenthood?
Speaker 1: Yeah, So you get a taste of it. Exactly, but
Speaker 1: not like the full deal. You can choose to answer
Speaker 1: this or not, but are you dating at this point
Speaker 1: in time? It can be cut out as well if
Speaker 1: you are not comfortable,
Speaker 2: I'm not married. Therefore I'm single.
Speaker 1: What a big answer my gosh,
Speaker 1: You
Speaker 2: know if the government forms asked me to fill up,
Speaker 2: I'll be like, yeah, I am
Speaker 1: single. Okay. Got you. Got you
Speaker 1: are you do you ever catch yourself in moments where
Speaker 1: you feel that you're afraid of being single past a
Speaker 1: certain age or does that not bother you at all?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that to be honest, hasn't bothered me at all.
Speaker 2: So you're okay
Speaker 1: if you're single for in your older years?
Speaker 2: That's the thing. I haven't really,
Speaker 2: I thought so far into like
Speaker 2: the years ahead. Like you know when I in my
Speaker 2: fifties or 60 if I'm still alone and by myself,
Speaker 2: I haven't given that much of a thought because I
Speaker 2: always assumed that there will be a partner that I
Speaker 2: spend my life with. It's just not now. Maybe. So
Speaker 2: a lot of times I wouldn't think so far ahead.
Speaker 2: Like okay, would I die alone or like leave alone
Speaker 2: at the end. I haven't given that much of a thought,
Speaker 2: but
Speaker 2: being single has its own perks and benefits. You got
Speaker 2: to spend time with yourself and you really let your
Speaker 2: thoughts settle and then you can do things that you
Speaker 2: can truly say love yourself and understand the meaning of
Speaker 2: like what it means to be with yourself, be at ease,
Speaker 2: have a meal alone. You probably have experienced in a
Speaker 2: long while. But me alone and go to a
Speaker 1: movie yourself alone.
Speaker 2: Yeah,
Speaker 1: I alone sometimes too.
Speaker 2: You know, the thing is like I go to, let's say,
Speaker 2: I walked past the restaurant and and there's a steamboat
Speaker 2: places like I feel like having steamer for lunch and
Speaker 2: then just walk in and say table for
Speaker 1: one. Yeah,
Speaker 2: yeah. And and if there's a movie that like to watch,
Speaker 2: I'm like, okay, I'll just get a ticket for one
Speaker 2: and I just want to watch a movie. Yeah, It's
Speaker 2: actually not that hard to do things alone
Speaker 1: guys. It's quite liberating. I would say, right? Yes, I
Speaker 2: know you're in a very blissful relationship, but are you
Speaker 2: afraid of being single
Speaker 2: at the end of your, Let me touch with it.
Speaker 2: I mean, I hope things are working well for you
Speaker 2: and
Speaker 1: your okay, touching all that. What do you think that
Speaker 1: um you know, actually I had this very in depth
Speaker 1: conversation with some of my friends recently and it was
Speaker 1: a mixture of this, this group of friends of mine.
Speaker 1: Like it's a mixture of two gay guys and to
Speaker 1: to other girls
Speaker 1: and we we we talked about it and you know,
Speaker 1: I think this is also related to an episode that
Speaker 1: we did with Jason Godfrey a few apps ago
Speaker 1: where we discussed what if friends and not marriage is
Speaker 1: the center of our lives right? Instead of always concentrating
Speaker 1: on worrying about getting married, settling down, having kids and
Speaker 1: all that, what if we just live life and if
Speaker 1: we don't get married, we don't get married, we just
Speaker 1: have our closest friends and we decided that if we
Speaker 1: ever were to be single at some age, we just
Speaker 1: all get like one big house and move in together
Speaker 1: and take care of each other. That's my backup plan.
Speaker 1: And if things don't work out, that's definitely my backup plan.
Speaker 1: Um but of course we say this jokingly and we
Speaker 1: laugh about it and all, but I think at the
Speaker 1: heart of things,
Speaker 1: most of us are afraid to be alone to some extent.
Speaker 1: I really think so. And I see it, you know,
Speaker 1: um in some of my friends, parents who, you know,
Speaker 1: unfortunately one of them passes on or you know, maybe
Speaker 1: divorce and stuff like that. And sometimes it's very saddening
Speaker 1: to see as well, like, you know, they obviously want
Speaker 1: to be independent and you want to, you know, live
Speaker 1: a nice life and all but
Speaker 1: eventually do you want companionship? You know, in your golden
Speaker 1: years of life? I think to me, I definitely want
Speaker 1: someone to do life with that's for sure. Like regardless
Speaker 1: of having the label of married couple or not having
Speaker 1: someone to do life with is
Speaker 1: something nice, right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think having someone to just be
Speaker 2: there to do everything with you and to
Speaker 2: Laugh at your bad jokes or two
Speaker 1: like that's for sure
Speaker 2: to do things that no other friends would do if
Speaker 2: you think that's definitely something that
Speaker 1: or someone to hear you scream when you win your
Speaker 1: next style, nobody around me. So you know, naturally we
Speaker 1: would feel certain stresses when it comes to
Speaker 1: the thought of being alone at the end of it.
Speaker 1: All right. You know, And
Speaker 1: I think for some people as well who may be
Speaker 1: more accepting of the fact like, hey, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: I'm single at a certain age already. I just have
Speaker 1: to accept that I'm going to be, you know loan forever.
Speaker 1: But I feel like there is never an age where you,
Speaker 1: you know, you start finding someone, I feel right. Exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: When you're, I don't know 50 60 like maybe you
Speaker 1: can still find someone
Speaker 2: was called Sunset
Speaker 1: for something. Sunset
Speaker 2: is, there's a chinese saying it's called, teach
Speaker 1: me, teach me something
Speaker 2: refers to a romance that is happening in the fifties
Speaker 2: and sixties every time and age.
Speaker 1: It's
Speaker 2: possible because like you say maybe one of their spouses,
Speaker 2: you know, they're divorced or widowed. Yeah. So in that
Speaker 2: case then yeah, they can embark on this Hong kong
Speaker 2: Chilean and I feel that no matter what age you are,
Speaker 2: you can actually, if you want you like to find
Speaker 2: a company, I think there's no, there's no holding back
Speaker 2: and just feel that your offer a certain age person
Speaker 2: number and therefore you don't qualify to experience romance again.
Speaker 2: So I don't think that
Speaker 1: I
Speaker 2: don't subscribe to that. Like
Speaker 1: that is so poetic to be honest. I don't know
Speaker 1: like english is not so poetic sometimes. Like mandarin phrases right?
Speaker 1: Always has some like artistic way of sunset love. That
Speaker 1: is so sweet. Hey, this is your next drama man.
Speaker 1: Like cast this guy, anything won't touch any number, you know?
Speaker 2: Alright
Speaker 1: anyway, you know, moving on to, I think something passed
Speaker 1: marriage when you have kids and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: Have you ever thought and maybe felt a bit concerned?
Speaker 1: Like what if you get married and then you cannot
Speaker 1: have kids?
Speaker 1: Like have you ever thought about that? Like maybe like
Speaker 1: physically or biologically like something happens and then
Speaker 1: like, you know, you have this ideal idea that okay,
Speaker 1: I'm going to get married and have kids and then
Speaker 1: what if I cannot
Speaker 2: have
Speaker 1: you thought about that? I'm worried about that
Speaker 2: these two concepts of marriage and kids to be the
Speaker 2: same thing. So
Speaker 1: yeah, you bundle them up together
Speaker 2: exactly like when you're married then it's time to settle
Speaker 2: because
Speaker 2: at the Chinese new year people asked you're married and
Speaker 2: once you're married and they asked
Speaker 1: when you're having kids. Exactly
Speaker 2: like they just have never any
Speaker 1: question, what is the phrase? Is it?
Speaker 1: Good job finally. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, so I never thought about these two issues separately.
Speaker 1: Exactly. Exactly.
Speaker 2: I haven't got myself checked
Speaker 1: up. I hope
Speaker 2: so. Yeah, but I actually haven't thought about it but
Speaker 2: I feel with the you know technology advancements, infertility and
Speaker 2: you know everything that's happening I feel that
Speaker 2: if a couple would really want to raise a kid
Speaker 2: or you know have a kid of their own ah
Speaker 2: it shouldn't be that big of an issue as of today.
Speaker 2: I feel I feel
Speaker 1: their methods to do so like IVF and the other
Speaker 1: one was
Speaker 1: are you I if I'm not wrong. Yeah. So those
Speaker 1: are kind of like the two things. I mean I'm
Speaker 1: not obviously in the medical field so I don't know
Speaker 1: how to like really describe it proper but we all
Speaker 1: know that there's technological advancements out there even though we're
Speaker 1: still not legally allowed to freeze our eggs here in Singapore.
Speaker 2: What about you? Like have you?
Speaker 1: Yeah I have, I
Speaker 2: thought you
Speaker 1: know I've seen some people on instagram like friends that
Speaker 1: I follow and stuff
Speaker 1: who have done IVF and I have to say I
Speaker 1: salute you guys. It looks like such a painful process
Speaker 1: honestly like the injections that you guys have to go through.
Speaker 1: I mean obviously I don't know the step by step
Speaker 1: on on what what needs to be done. But it
Speaker 1: is a painful process, emotionally painful as well.
Speaker 1: And I think you have to have a lot of
Speaker 1: resilience and determination for that to happen and the thing
Speaker 1: is sometimes it may not even work and you have
Speaker 1: to do it again,
Speaker 1: and it costs a lot of money. So I feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, you have to be mentally prepared for that,
Speaker 1: obviously I can't speak from anyone's perspective or point of
Speaker 1: view because I'm not in their shoes, but I can
Speaker 1: imagine for a couple that's trying so hard to conceive,
Speaker 1: that is a very, you know, it could be a
Speaker 1: very emotionally draining process as well. So is it a
Speaker 1: thing where, like, you know, do you feel like I
Speaker 1: am getting married
Speaker 1: so that we can have kids and a family or
Speaker 1: it's okay if we get married and not have kids,
Speaker 2: I am actually the guy who subscribed to the traditional
Speaker 2: family values of starting a family, so, you know, getting
Speaker 2: married to me would mean that, you know, starting a
Speaker 2: family of my own, so that would mean, you know,
Speaker 2: having my kids. So to me, I'm a huge believer
Speaker 2: when a friend told me recently that raising a kid
Speaker 2: could be one of your biggest legacies that you can
Speaker 2: leave behind for anyone because raising a kid is super
Speaker 2: tough and you know, raising them to, you know, to
Speaker 2: be a really great human is also like way tougher
Speaker 2: than that. So that's why, to me it is something
Speaker 2: that I would see myself doing right, should my partners
Speaker 2: say no.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, but what you really love this person,
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: then how, like you're torn but your partners like ned
Speaker 1: don't want a kid.
Speaker 2: I think that would be a very
Speaker 2: long ongoing debate with me and my partner to discuss
Speaker 2: like a whether we should have a kid or not,
Speaker 2: I would really have to go very in depth debate
Speaker 2: on why she doesn't would not like to have a kid.
Speaker 2: I think that would be a very tough
Speaker 1: conversation to have.
Speaker 2: Yes, very tough conversation to have. So what about what
Speaker 2: about
Speaker 1: you? Um you know, I hope my parents don't watch this,
Speaker 1: but
Speaker 1: I entertained the thought of getting married or selling down
Speaker 1: or having a companion, a life companion. But I don't
Speaker 1: necessarily need to have kids, I feel and I feel
Speaker 1: like my perspective changes along the way. Like some years
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, I can see it happening, but some
Speaker 1: years I'm like, I don't necessarily need
Speaker 1: to have it and then maybe I'll check in with
Speaker 1: myself again in three or four years and see where
Speaker 1: I'm at in terms of that. So to answer your
Speaker 1: question directly, I think
Speaker 1: it's not so much of that. I think like you said,
Speaker 1: it's very rewarding for some women are like, wow, this
Speaker 1: is the most amazing experience of my life. Some have
Speaker 1: tough pregnancies and they don't want to do it again.
Speaker 1: But I think also it comes from a point of
Speaker 1: it's so expensive. Also to raise the kids and sometimes,
Speaker 1: you know, my friends and I also debate is it
Speaker 1: like a narcissistic thing to think like, I want to
Speaker 1: leave behind,
Speaker 1: like, a good human being like that represents me. Like,
Speaker 1: do I even care for that? I don't know. So
Speaker 1: I'll figure it out along the way, and if you're
Speaker 1: watching this and you're also figuring out it's okay to
Speaker 1: conclude it all now that you've already, you know, you're
Speaker 1: approaching your thirties and you mentioned earlier on that
Speaker 1: 30 initially was that age where you're like, oh, is
Speaker 1: the ideal age, but now you're approaching it. So, do
Speaker 1: you have a new and refreshed timeline of when you
Speaker 1: see yourself settling down and having a family?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a lot of it has to um
Speaker 2: to do with like, you know, at what point and
Speaker 2: it's me and my partner, your would be partner feel
Speaker 2: ready at the point of time, right? So I don't
Speaker 2: give myself like an exact timeline, but right now, you know,
Speaker 2: as of last year, there's a lot of good announcements
Speaker 2: happening in my company, right?
Speaker 2: So a lot of people are getting hitched and getting,
Speaker 2: you know, getting married. So the good thing is that
Speaker 2: they are setting the example that you don't have to
Speaker 2: wait until your 40s to settle down and to get hitched.
Speaker 2: So following their footpaths, maybe in my thirties, I might
Speaker 2: have announcement for everyone. I might, I might, I'm not
Speaker 2: saying that I will, but I might have just in
Speaker 2: my
Speaker 1: thirties, like 31 or 32 not like big difference one
Speaker 1: of 39 I'm thinking
Speaker 2: Maybe you made a late 30s.
Speaker 1: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So on that note, obviously, you know,
Speaker 1: it's been such an in depth conversation that we had
Speaker 1: today and I think we also saw a new side
Speaker 1: to you. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me giving
Speaker 1: so much opinions and you were so chatty and you
Speaker 1: were so giving in terms of your knowledge and your,
Speaker 1: you know, your thoughts and stuff like that in life.
Speaker 2: Just brain farting. If
Speaker 1: this is the quality of your brain farts, we're going
Speaker 1: to have you here all the time.
Speaker 2: Please have me back for more episodes. one
Speaker 1: 100%.
Speaker 1: But obviously before we let you go, you know, just
Speaker 1: some concluding thoughts as well. Like, I think some things
Speaker 1: that we picked out from during our conversation, what I
Speaker 1: liked that you mentioned was forging your own path. Yeah. So,
Speaker 1: so do you want to just you know, leave our
Speaker 1: viewers with some parting thoughts on that
Speaker 2: as much as you know, we have my own timelines
Speaker 2: and like,
Speaker 2: Sonya and I then we both have changing timelines, you know,
Speaker 2: according to the state we are in. So I feel
Speaker 2: that everyone can also have your own timeline
Speaker 2: and even if it changes, you know, for your mother
Speaker 2: and I think it's fine because you are working your
Speaker 2: own path in the end and you're in your own race.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree. Um you know, I think
Speaker 1: when it comes to forging your own path, like you
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier on sometimes it just breaks society's expectations of
Speaker 1: you or which is totally fine by the way. Like,
Speaker 1: like I mentioned okay to be in the in between.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's okay to not always have it figured out
Speaker 1: because I used to be such a control freak and
Speaker 1: like I must figure out like what I want to
Speaker 1: do by the end of this year. But I'm always
Speaker 1: so like that, you know? But I think um having
Speaker 1: the time to sit down and think about it too.
Speaker 1: I'm like, you know, maybe I should just let the
Speaker 1: reins go a little bit because
Speaker 1: it's constantly changing and you know where you want to
Speaker 1: be and what you want may change depending on where
Speaker 1: you're at in that year as well.
Speaker 1: So don't take it too hard on yourself. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for listening to this episode of Men explain
Speaker 1: has been a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining
Speaker 2: us. If
Speaker 1: you like this episode, please hit the follow button. We're
Speaker 1: on Spotify and Apple podcasts. Also please follow us at
Speaker 1: its clarity dot co on instagram and facebook for more
Speaker 1: content like this and more beautiful people like settings face
Speaker 1: as well, see you next episode bye
Speaker 2: bye