WEBVTT - Caning for scammers?

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<v Speaker 1>It's a Singapore Today top story with Lance and Daniel.

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<v Speaker 2>It's still unbelievable because if you think about it, $1.1

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<v Speaker 2>billion lost in scams. That's about $3 million a day.

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<v Speaker 2>And I was also reading this, Daniel. The world lost

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<v Speaker 2>about a trillion dollars two years ago in scams. A

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<v Speaker 2>trillion dollars. I'm not even sure how many zeros there

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<v Speaker 2>are there. Yeah, exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>So what do you guys think about it? Because according

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<v Speaker 2>to Minister of State for Home Affairs, Sun Xui Ling,

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<v Speaker 2>in a speech during yesterday's Committee of Supply debate for

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<v Speaker 2>the Home Affairs Ministry, she did bring up this case

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<v Speaker 2>that yes, Singapore's going to start considering this. Currently, here's

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<v Speaker 2>how caning is used, OK? Offenses that warrant caning under

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<v Speaker 2>Singapore law include robbery, drug abuse, vandalism, sexual abuse, and

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<v Speaker 2>illegal money laundering, right.

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<v Speaker 2>Now that we're extending the use or considering now Singapore

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<v Speaker 2>is considering it, let's talk about the role of this

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<v Speaker 2>form of punishment in our legal system. Noel Teo is here,

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<v Speaker 2>associate lawyer from GJC Law. Noel, welcome back to the show.

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<v Speaker 2>Hi, Lance, Daniel, thank you for having me. When you

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<v Speaker 2>first heard about this idea of extending this form of

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<v Speaker 2>punishment to be included for to potentially be included for

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<v Speaker 2>very serious scam cases as well, can you give us your,

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<v Speaker 2>your legal mind perspective on it? Have we, do we

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<v Speaker 2>see this in the legal world often that certain forms

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<v Speaker 2>of punishment which traditionally have been used for certain crimes

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<v Speaker 2>can also be extended into the use of other types

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<v Speaker 2>of crimes?

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's undisputed that Singapore has a very low

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<v Speaker 2>tolerance towards crime, and I guess for scam-related offenses, Singapore

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<v Speaker 2>has taken a very strict and harsh stance towards such offenses,

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<v Speaker 2>and as the minister has mentioned, the starting point is

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<v Speaker 2>an imprisonment sentence. Of course, it includes cases where even

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<v Speaker 2>a person handing over their bank account.

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<v Speaker 2>SingPass account, or even the new law, which where you

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<v Speaker 2>hand over your SIM cards to be used in scam-related activities.

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<v Speaker 2>And um I guess imposing caning on scammers is probably

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<v Speaker 2>consistent with the firm and uncompromising stance towards scams and

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<v Speaker 2>with harsher penalties, including physical punishment.

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<v Speaker 2>Parliament is probably sending a very strong message that scam-related

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<v Speaker 2>activities will not be tolerated. Yes, but can, but in

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<v Speaker 2>the the legal framework, can one form of punishment be

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<v Speaker 2>extended to other types of crimes? I mean, we have

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<v Speaker 2>grown used to caning being used for these types of

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<v Speaker 2>things for robbery, drug abuse.

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<v Speaker 2>illegal lending, right? Yeah, something that's, that's very deep, like

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<v Speaker 2>very personal, very abusive, very serious, um, so the idea

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<v Speaker 2>of that form of punishment being extended into something else,

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<v Speaker 2>which maybe is not as physically harmful but definitely emotionally

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<v Speaker 2>scarring and life ruining scamming is, but can a form

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<v Speaker 2>of punishment in one area be extended to use in

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<v Speaker 2>another area?

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<v Speaker 2>I guess this has, this is a decision with parliament,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, if they decide to amend the law to

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<v Speaker 2>include caning as a form of punishment, that is what

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<v Speaker 2>the parliament will decide.

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<v Speaker 2>Um, this is probably because you need a strong deterrent

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<v Speaker 2>and sometimes maybe financial penalties or imprisonment may not fully

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<v Speaker 2>deter scammers, particularly if they are in a syndicate and

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<v Speaker 2>they may treat imprisonment or fines simply as a cost

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<v Speaker 2>of doing business. So, you know, having the possibility of

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<v Speaker 2>caning may make them think twice and discourage local and

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<v Speaker 2>foreigners from engaging in scam-related activities. Right. OK. No, but

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<v Speaker 2>what's the quantum, you know, are we talking about someone

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<v Speaker 2>who

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe scams and individual or a group of people of

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<v Speaker 2>over $500,000 a million dollars, there must be some sort

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<v Speaker 2>of um benchmark.

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<v Speaker 2>Understand. I, I think the challenge here is defining what

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<v Speaker 2>is a more serious case and is it only going

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<v Speaker 2>to apply to large scale syndicate leaders or is it

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<v Speaker 2>going to apply to even local individuals who become involved

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<v Speaker 2>in a scam-related event. Again, this is something to be

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<v Speaker 2>dealt with by parliament and the company is scams. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>this is pretty much.

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<v Speaker 2>But of course there is the Sentencing Advisory panel guidelines. Um,

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<v Speaker 2>there are certain considerations that they have brought up for

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<v Speaker 2>other scam-related offenses, such as whether it was motivated by

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<v Speaker 2>personal gain, whether there's an abuse of position of trust,

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<v Speaker 2>whether there was the value of the scam proceeds that

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<v Speaker 2>you mentioned, whether there was a syndicate element, and whether

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<v Speaker 2>were there vulnerable victims. Right, OK, so.

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<v Speaker 2>Are we looking at at something like this as well?

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<v Speaker 2>I know it's up to parliament, but we're just spitballing here.

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<v Speaker 2>Would it apply to Singaporeans or anyone that's caught here

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<v Speaker 2>in Singapore, they will, if this does go ahead, they

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<v Speaker 2>will have the roan.

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<v Speaker 2>I believe that it would, it would likely apply to

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<v Speaker 2>both because um I think a lot of scams are

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<v Speaker 2>conducted overseas and and in a way, when the harsh

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<v Speaker 2>punishments are held towards people who hand over accounts in Singapore,

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<v Speaker 2>it is to cut off their supply.

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<v Speaker 2>So it really depends on how parliament and the court

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<v Speaker 2>interprets this moving forward, but um I believe that if

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<v Speaker 2>they do, they would not probably will not discriminate between,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, whether or not they're Singaporeans or whether or

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<v Speaker 2>not they are foreigners. Actually, that brings up an interesting

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<v Speaker 2>point because of the nature of scams, which are transboundary

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<v Speaker 2>in nature and because that may be different jurisdictions as well.

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<v Speaker 2>First, I mean, yes, it's all well and good to

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<v Speaker 2>have this as a punishment or form of pun punishment potentially.

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<v Speaker 2>But what if the man on the street is gonna say, I,

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<v Speaker 2>what's the point? Can you catch a person?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, of course, there is a difficulty there

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<v Speaker 2>because it is um like you said, transnational and it

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<v Speaker 2>is a bit difficult to trace if it's conducted online.

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<v Speaker 2>But like I mentioned just now, sometimes it's pretty much

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<v Speaker 2>to deter people. I think similarly to how Singapore's stance

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<v Speaker 2>towards drugs and you know, how we treat certain offenses.

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<v Speaker 2>It is quite clear that Singapore has a very harsh

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<v Speaker 2>stance towards such things and scammers twice. Will the scammer twice?

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<v Speaker 2>If the scammer is in country X 10,000 kilometers away,

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<v Speaker 2>they're like, what's the point? You have the law, but

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<v Speaker 2>you can't, you can't, I I'm not going to end

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<v Speaker 2>up in a Singaporean jail.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, like I said, we're not sure how they're

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<v Speaker 2>going to apply the law. If they're going to apply

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<v Speaker 2>it to locals who become involved, that could also, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>that could also be possible because like I said, when

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<v Speaker 2>they target the locals, it's pretty much to sort of

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<v Speaker 2>cut off the supply for the overseas scammers, and when

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<v Speaker 2>you cut off their supplies, they tend to not be

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<v Speaker 2>able to conduct, you know, the scams anymore because you

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<v Speaker 2>you're basically targeting them from the source. Can I just

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<v Speaker 2>tell you guys

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<v Speaker 2>Fun fact, there are about 120,000 people now working in

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<v Speaker 2>scam centers in Myanmar. I know, I know. 120,000 people.

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<v Speaker 2>Some of them have been kidnapped, some of them have

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<v Speaker 2>gone there thinking they've got job opportunities, they go there,

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<v Speaker 2>next thing you know.

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<v Speaker 2>They're working under terrible conditions, paying back debts. I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>sure what else, maybe even being tortured just to make

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<v Speaker 2>money for these scammers. That is scary. It's larger than

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<v Speaker 2>multinational corporations, you know. So it, it goes to show

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<v Speaker 2>you how organized these scammers are as well. It's, it's

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<v Speaker 2>how they're doing things. So that's why we need to

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<v Speaker 2>fight back.

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<v Speaker 2>So other than giving them the Rotan as well, are

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<v Speaker 2>we also looking at maybe seizing all their assets, property, cars,

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<v Speaker 2>bank accounts? Are we looking at stuff like that? Do

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<v Speaker 2>you think we need to look at that to make

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<v Speaker 2>sure it's severe, it's harsh?

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<v Speaker 2>I think there is twofold, so there is, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>the possibility of disgorging any of the proceeds of scam

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<v Speaker 2>that is that is already currently in place. The other

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<v Speaker 2>part is there is also a law introduced to also

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<v Speaker 2>allow authorities to take control of the accounts of targets

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<v Speaker 2>and to freeze, suspend money transfer. Of course, in this way,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, instead of just only punishing, we deal with

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<v Speaker 2>protective measures against scams. So that that's sort of a

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<v Speaker 2>twofold kind of thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Where you're not just punishing people, but you're also warning

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<v Speaker 2>people against going towards scams, um, you know, protecting people

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<v Speaker 2>who are just stubbornly going to continue transferring money to scammers.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm just out of curiosity, this form of punishment, I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>does draw international flack and, and makes headlines around the

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<v Speaker 2>world sometimes. If you're old enough like me, uh, and Nance,

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<v Speaker 2>you'll remember the Michael Fay case, for example, which made

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<v Speaker 2>headlines around the world, right? And so, so I'm curious,

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<v Speaker 2>like is this form of punishment still actively utilized in

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<v Speaker 2>the judicial systems around the world? Is this very unique

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<v Speaker 2>to Singapore from a legal point of view, is it

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<v Speaker 2>still used elsewhere?

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<v Speaker 2>Um, yes, it is actually used in Asian countries. I

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<v Speaker 2>believe Malaysia, Indonesia, they still use it as well. Um,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, for different offenses and like you mentioned just now,

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<v Speaker 2>generally reserved for violent crimes, drug offenses, sexual offenses. Interesting. OK. Uh,

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<v Speaker 2>can we talk about Telegram as well because we know

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<v Speaker 2>this was brought up in parliament. Should we go after

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<v Speaker 2>the platforms in a, in a much bigger way, because

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<v Speaker 2>we know Telegram.

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<v Speaker 2>A lot of people go on to Telegram to do

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<v Speaker 2>these jobs and investment scams, so.

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<v Speaker 2>Other than the individuals that need to be keen, how

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<v Speaker 2>can we handle these big social media platforms to, to

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<v Speaker 2>maybe send a message that their platforms are being used

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<v Speaker 2>for scams and we need to do something about it

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<v Speaker 2>if they're not doing something about it?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I think we have spoken quite a few times

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<v Speaker 2>about how social media is being used for offenses and scams,

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<v Speaker 2>all this while. Um, I think there needs to be

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<v Speaker 2>some sort of guidelines and control in terms of how

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<v Speaker 2>these these these platforms actually deal with such um

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<v Speaker 2>Users, I guess, when you call them users who actually create,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, channels and messages that leads to scams. Um,

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<v Speaker 2>we have cases where, you know, clients sort of fall

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<v Speaker 2>prey to such scammers from Telegram thinking that it is

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<v Speaker 2>a job.

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<v Speaker 2>And, and in the, in the end, you know, they

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<v Speaker 2>get into trouble. So, um I think there needs to

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<v Speaker 2>be some sort of, you know, I don't know, moderator

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<v Speaker 2>control whether or not someone can flag out certain words

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<v Speaker 2>because they tend to use similar words like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>fast cash, they use words like quick loan.

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<v Speaker 2>Like that sort of sounds. Yeah, and it does sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>it does sound legal and particularly of course for people

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<v Speaker 2>who are not as savvy, maybe the younger generation or

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<v Speaker 2>even the older generation, um that is something that is

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<v Speaker 2>a bit we need to be a bit more cautious

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<v Speaker 2>about um and the platforms can actually come in to

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<v Speaker 2>sort of do.

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<v Speaker 2>Um, some sort of control. Yeah, but we've been having

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<v Speaker 2>this chat for a long time too. You know, we

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<v Speaker 2>keep saying they need to do better due diligence, but

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<v Speaker 2>nothing is being done or very little is being done.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe they, they may do it for a little while,

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<v Speaker 2>but how can we make sure that they do any

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<v Speaker 2>idea at all? I think we should hurt them.

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<v Speaker 2>Where it is, uh, where, where it hurts them in

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<v Speaker 2>their pockets. So maybe heavy, heavy fines. That could be

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<v Speaker 2>a possible thing. So for example, like, you know, companies

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<v Speaker 2>who sort of maybe under the PDPA they they unable

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<v Speaker 2>to

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<v Speaker 2>certain confidential data, they end up being, you know, fine

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<v Speaker 2>for certain offense for certain of these disclosures that could

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<v Speaker 2>be something that could be considered, but again, I said

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<v Speaker 2>these are businesses, so sometimes it could be just a

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<v Speaker 2>business cost for them.

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<v Speaker 2>Out of curiosity, when things like this happen where the

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<v Speaker 2>government is considering extending the use of this form of

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<v Speaker 2>punishment for these types of crimes, and let's, let's say

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<v Speaker 2>it takes X amount of months for this to be considered,

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<v Speaker 2>but in terms of implication and utility in the legal world,

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<v Speaker 2>is it fairly straightforward? Like the judge is like, OK,

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<v Speaker 2>so this is now part of

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<v Speaker 2>Punishments that we can roll out. It it is very

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<v Speaker 2>smooth the transition in order to be able to utilize it.

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<v Speaker 2>So of course, once the law is passed and and

0:12:09.419 --> 0:12:11.539
<v Speaker 2>it depends on whether or not they decide it can

0:12:11.539 --> 0:12:15.699
<v Speaker 2>be applied retrospectively, um, then the courts will then apply

0:12:15.700 --> 0:12:18.579
<v Speaker 2>it for cases that they are dealing with generally.

0:12:19.309 --> 0:12:21.539
<v Speaker 2>Is it also a bad look that we are going

0:12:21.539 --> 0:12:26.020
<v Speaker 2>to cane scammers if it does become law? How would

0:12:26.020 --> 0:12:28.340
<v Speaker 2>countries in the region look at it? How would the

0:12:28.340 --> 0:12:30.390
<v Speaker 2>world look at it, you know, because people may say

0:12:30.390 --> 0:12:33.780
<v Speaker 2>it's a white-collar crime and we're being a bit too

0:12:33.780 --> 0:12:38.260
<v Speaker 2>harsh here. Do you think that there will be um

0:12:38.260 --> 0:12:41.409
<v Speaker 2>some people who may or some countries that may say

0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:43.150
<v Speaker 2>don't kill our people.

0:12:43.830 --> 0:12:47.099
<v Speaker 2>Um, I'm not sure whether that will happen, but that

0:12:47.099 --> 0:12:50.329
<v Speaker 2>is something to be dealt between the different countries, but

0:12:50.859 --> 0:12:54.580
<v Speaker 2>I think being able to do swift punishment and and

0:12:54.580 --> 0:12:59.380
<v Speaker 2>certain punishment reinforces public trust and also shows that the

0:12:59.380 --> 0:13:01.979
<v Speaker 2>government is committed to holding people accountable.

0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:05.190
<v Speaker 2>And that this has a profound impact on our community.

0:13:05.299 --> 0:13:07.549
<v Speaker 2>It also fosters a sense of safety and confidence. You

0:13:07.549 --> 0:13:10.099
<v Speaker 2>don't want your maybe your grandmother going out and accidentally

0:13:10.099 --> 0:13:12.960
<v Speaker 2>falling into a scam as well, right? So, so things

0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:15.700
<v Speaker 2>like that, I think um it's not just punishment, like

0:13:15.700 --> 0:13:19.829
<v Speaker 2>I said, there's also public education, there's also protection measures

0:13:19.830 --> 0:13:22.229
<v Speaker 2>that we have to take in order to work together

0:13:22.229 --> 0:13:25.030
<v Speaker 2>to to solve counter the crime the crime of scams.

0:13:25.669 --> 0:13:27.500
<v Speaker 2>But do you also like, I'm curious, like from the

0:13:27.500 --> 0:13:30.228
<v Speaker 2>like when you go to international legal conferences and things

0:13:30.229 --> 0:13:30.630
<v Speaker 2>like that.

0:13:31.210 --> 0:13:33.049
<v Speaker 2>Other people that like, oh, that's the one that's the

0:13:33.049 --> 0:13:34.608
<v Speaker 2>lawyer from the country that's the house cleaning, you know.

0:13:36.070 --> 0:13:38.900
<v Speaker 2>I think Singapore is quite well known for being harsh

0:13:38.900 --> 0:13:42.270
<v Speaker 2>in terms of our crimes and, and I don't think

0:13:42.270 --> 0:13:45.830
<v Speaker 2>that's a big problem because um it does, it does

0:13:45.830 --> 0:13:48.760
<v Speaker 2>give us, gives our country a sort of safety kind

0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:52.239
<v Speaker 2>of thing. People see Singapore as a safe place and

0:13:52.419 --> 0:13:54.669
<v Speaker 2>and it helps with, I guess the tourism, it helps

0:13:54.669 --> 0:13:56.709
<v Speaker 2>with many, many things, you know, when Singapore is seen

0:13:56.710 --> 0:13:58.789
<v Speaker 2>as a safe place where there's no confidence.

0:13:59.049 --> 0:14:02.500
<v Speaker 2>In the justice system, that's very important, I believe. Yeah,

0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:04.400
<v Speaker 2>you always hear that every time you're flying back to Singapore,

0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:06.559
<v Speaker 2>the plane will always have the announcement before you land, right, about,

0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:08.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, bringing in drugs and blah blah blah, and

0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:11.479
<v Speaker 2>how it's illegal in Singapore. I like hearing that, you know,

0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:13.598
<v Speaker 2>I'll I'll tell you a story as well when I

0:14:13.599 --> 0:14:15.239
<v Speaker 2>was in New Zealand and I was staying there with

0:14:15.239 --> 0:14:18.000
<v Speaker 2>my family, and one morning my wife was going to

0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:21.059
<v Speaker 2>work and she opened the door and then I hear

0:14:21.059 --> 0:14:23.320
<v Speaker 2>her stomping up the stairs and she says my car

0:14:23.320 --> 0:14:26.109
<v Speaker 2>is not there. So I called the police and I,

0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:27.200
<v Speaker 2>and I reported it.

0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:30.900
<v Speaker 2>And the police said, Why are you calling us? So

0:14:30.900 --> 0:14:33.539
<v Speaker 2>I said, the car has been stolen. Are you gonna

0:14:33.539 --> 0:14:36.260
<v Speaker 2>come around and CSI the place just to take a look?

0:14:36.419 --> 0:14:39.289
<v Speaker 2>And they said, no, just call your insurance people because

0:14:39.659 --> 0:14:44.179
<v Speaker 2>cars are stolen in New Zealand every day. So no

0:14:44.179 --> 0:14:47.099
<v Speaker 2>longer my job description to investigate. So yeah, they didn't

0:14:47.099 --> 0:14:50.169
<v Speaker 2>even bother asking me to make a report, so they said, just,

0:14:50.419 --> 0:14:52.789
<v Speaker 2>I'm not kidding, but don't you need a police report

0:14:52.789 --> 0:14:53.859
<v Speaker 2>in order to make the insurance claim?

0:14:54.479 --> 0:14:56.229
<v Speaker 2>I, I didn't have to make one. I just told

0:14:56.229 --> 0:14:59.969
<v Speaker 2>them my car's not here. It's stolen, and then I just, uh,

0:14:59.989 --> 0:15:04.150
<v Speaker 2>claimed the money that I lost on the car. I'm

0:15:04.150 --> 0:15:06.900
<v Speaker 2>not kidding because it happened, but you see, in Singapore,

0:15:06.909 --> 0:15:09.820
<v Speaker 2>if a car is stolen, it makes front page news, Daniel,

0:15:10.510 --> 0:15:12.380
<v Speaker 2>you know, people will be talking about it, you know,

0:15:12.510 --> 0:15:16.510
<v Speaker 2>but in New Zealand, it's nothing, you know, it's nothing.

0:15:16.549 --> 0:15:19.109
<v Speaker 2>It's just one of those things. It's scary.

0:15:19.479 --> 0:15:23.140
<v Speaker 2>I think interesting, maybe an interesting story. I actually ever

0:15:23.140 --> 0:15:25.820
<v Speaker 2>left behind my laptop. So I left behind my laptop

0:15:25.820 --> 0:15:29.799
<v Speaker 2>at a coffee shop after dinner and I actually reached home,

0:15:29.979 --> 0:15:32.369
<v Speaker 2>then I realized that my laptop is not with me

0:15:32.900 --> 0:15:35.330
<v Speaker 2>and a friend went back and it was still there.

0:15:36.150 --> 0:15:38.580
<v Speaker 2>This at least one hour later, right? It was more

0:15:38.580 --> 0:15:39.340
<v Speaker 2>than an hour later.

0:15:40.164 --> 0:15:44.354
<v Speaker 2>This is Singapore for you. So is. One person was like, OK,

0:15:44.395 --> 0:15:46.315
<v Speaker 2>that's somebody they'll come and take it, blah blah blah.

0:15:46.614 --> 0:15:48.594
<v Speaker 2>Another person is like, this person go and choke the

0:15:48.594 --> 0:15:50.434
<v Speaker 2>table for so long with their laptop. Well, I never

0:15:50.434 --> 0:15:53.424
<v Speaker 2>come back. Or they will just pass it on to

0:15:53.424 --> 0:15:56.275
<v Speaker 2>the staff to say someone's left it behind. Please look

0:15:56.275 --> 0:15:59.354
<v Speaker 2>after this and, and, and they will return it. This

0:15:59.354 --> 0:16:00.715
<v Speaker 2>is how we are here.

0:16:01.219 --> 0:16:04.030
<v Speaker 2>Of course we can't take it for granted, yes, yes,

0:16:05.369 --> 0:16:07.059
<v Speaker 2>but you know when you do lose something, people are

0:16:07.059 --> 0:16:09.940
<v Speaker 2>talking about it. What? It was stolen here in Singapore.

0:16:10.059 --> 0:16:13.299
<v Speaker 2>So that's the thing Singapore does have this of trust.

0:16:13.419 --> 0:16:16.090
<v Speaker 2>We're not saying that no crime happens. does absolutely happen.

0:16:16.479 --> 0:16:17.190
<v Speaker 2>I had a friend who

0:16:17.239 --> 0:16:20.469
<v Speaker 2>Who had to use the toilet, so he parked his bicycle,

0:16:20.549 --> 0:16:23.789
<v Speaker 2>went inside quickly, we came back out, bicycle gone, for example,

0:16:23.969 --> 0:16:27.909
<v Speaker 2>you know, stuff does happen unfortunately, but, but, but it's

0:16:27.909 --> 0:16:30.750
<v Speaker 2>nice to know that I think a majority of Singaporeans

0:16:30.750 --> 0:16:33.190
<v Speaker 2>will be OK with this because the quantum.

0:16:33.690 --> 0:16:37.630
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's, it's just scary, right? $1.1 billion and

0:16:37.630 --> 0:16:41.700
<v Speaker 2>it went up 70%, you know, from the previous year.

0:16:41.950 --> 0:16:43.510
<v Speaker 2>So if it's going to go up like that, you're

0:16:43.510 --> 0:16:47.219
<v Speaker 2>looking at, hopefully not, but what if it hits $2 billion?

0:16:47.349 --> 0:16:50.750
<v Speaker 2>What if it hits $4 billion? Is is that it, Noel?

0:16:50.789 --> 0:16:52.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, in your legal world, are you all seeing

0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:56.780
<v Speaker 2>the quantum of the cases involving scams increase so much

0:16:56.989 --> 0:16:59.830
<v Speaker 2>that no one can ignore them. Everybody has to divert

0:16:59.830 --> 0:17:01.539
<v Speaker 2>resources to it. It is critical right now.

0:17:02.039 --> 0:17:04.660
<v Speaker 2>I think everybody sort of know anybody who has fallen

0:17:04.660 --> 0:17:07.540
<v Speaker 2>to a crime, to a scam and and.

0:17:08.439 --> 0:17:10.750
<v Speaker 2>It can be something as small as, you know, a

0:17:10.750 --> 0:17:12.910
<v Speaker 2>couple of hundreds of dollars. It could be something as

0:17:12.910 --> 0:17:18.780
<v Speaker 2>big as 2000 to $30,000 per time. Um, unfortunately, it

0:17:18.780 --> 0:17:21.379
<v Speaker 2>is something that has has gone on and I think

0:17:21.469 --> 0:17:24.469
<v Speaker 2>it has been described as a growing menace. Yeah, we

0:17:24.469 --> 0:17:26.579
<v Speaker 2>got to fight back. Do you think

0:17:27.979 --> 0:17:28.660
<v Speaker 2>We work

0:17:29.910 --> 0:17:32.988
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure it remains to be seen. Yeah, we

0:17:32.989 --> 0:17:34.349
<v Speaker 2>want to see what the discussions will be like and

0:17:34.349 --> 0:17:37.099
<v Speaker 2>whether it will be used as a form of punishment

0:17:37.099 --> 0:17:40.670
<v Speaker 2>for scammers too and serious scam offenses, as was announced

0:17:40.670 --> 0:17:43.069
<v Speaker 2>by Minister of State for Home Affairsan Xui Ling during

0:17:43.069 --> 0:17:45.349
<v Speaker 2>her speech yesterday during the Committee of Supply debate for

0:17:45.349 --> 0:17:47.800
<v Speaker 2>Home Affairs Ministry. Hey, thank you so much, Noel Teo,

0:17:47.829 --> 0:17:50.198
<v Speaker 2>associate lawyer. Good to talk to you as well. Noel

0:17:50.199 --> 0:17:52.430
<v Speaker 2>is an associate lawyer out of GJC Law. This has

0:17:52.430 --> 0:17:53.589
<v Speaker 2>been Singapore today's top story.