1 00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:02,220 Speaker 1: Hi there. Welcome to Heart of The Matter with me, 2 00:00:02,230 --> 00:00:05,210 Speaker 1: Steven Cher. One of the biggest headlines this year was 3 00:00:05,219 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 1: the billion dollar money laundering case here in Singapore. Since 4 00:00:08,850 --> 00:00:11,068 Speaker 1: we're on a season break. Now, we wanted to bring 5 00:00:11,079 --> 00:00:14,909 Speaker 1: back this episode for you. The case involved expensive properties, 6 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:16,030 Speaker 1: high end watches, low 7 00:00:16,184 --> 00:00:19,245 Speaker 1: jury bags and 10 suspects were arrested, all of them 8 00:00:19,254 --> 00:00:22,794 Speaker 1: foreigners and they are still facing trial. So why is 9 00:00:22,805 --> 00:00:25,965 Speaker 1: it so difficult to catch people involved in money laundering? 10 00:00:26,065 --> 00:00:29,174 Speaker 1: My guest for this episode explained why it is like 11 00:00:29,184 --> 00:00:33,025 Speaker 1: finding a needle in a haystack. Have a listen, you're 12 00:00:33,034 --> 00:00:35,034 Speaker 1: listening to AC N A podcast. 13 00:00:37,979 --> 00:00:40,509 Speaker 1: Now, if you are of a certain vintage, you know, 14 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,650 Speaker 1: a bit like mine, you probably remember an American TV 15 00:00:43,659 --> 00:00:47,470 Speaker 1: series called Lifestyles of The Rich and Famous. Ok. If 16 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,919 Speaker 1: you're much younger, today's equivalent would be something like Bling Empire. 17 00:00:51,009 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: Simply put their both shows about money, money, money. 18 00:00:55,069 --> 00:00:57,790 Speaker 1: And since news broke on one of the biggest money 19 00:00:57,799 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: laundering operations in Singapore, it seemed like those images of 20 00:01:01,250 --> 00:01:04,650 Speaker 1: opulent wealth had come to life right here on our 21 00:01:04,660 --> 00:01:07,739 Speaker 1: tiny island. We're talking wads of cash, you know, which 22 00:01:07,750 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: is about $14 million. Add to that 50 vehicles, 100 23 00:01:12,089 --> 00:01:15,550 Speaker 1: and five properties, hundreds of high end watches, luxury bags 24 00:01:15,559 --> 00:01:21,970 Speaker 1: and even bears. Yup. Seems these bear bricks are very expensive, 25 00:01:22,180 --> 00:01:24,639 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of dollars each actually. 26 00:01:25,019 --> 00:01:28,289 Speaker 1: So that definitely blew our minds. Now, the 10 suspects 27 00:01:28,300 --> 00:01:32,199 Speaker 1: arrested were all foreigners who hailed from Fujian province in China, 28 00:01:32,209 --> 00:01:35,849 Speaker 1: but they carried passports from all over the world. Today. 29 00:01:35,860 --> 00:01:39,129 Speaker 1: We want to peel back the curtains and ask why 30 00:01:39,139 --> 00:01:41,830 Speaker 1: is it so difficult to catch people like this? 31 00:01:44,639 --> 00:01:48,279 Speaker 1: Today? We're recording online and joining me are Adam Mania 32 00:01:48,430 --> 00:01:53,089 Speaker 1: director dispute resolution at Dr Napier. Hi everyone. Associate professor. 33 00:01:53,099 --> 00:01:56,410 Speaker 1: So Ken from the Singapore University of Social Science and 34 00:01:56,419 --> 00:02:03,059 Speaker 1: a former director of the CPIB. Hello everybody. Fabrizio Fioroni advisor, 35 00:02:03,069 --> 00:02:06,699 Speaker 1: anti money laundering, counter financing of terrorism from 36 00:02:06,794 --> 00:02:09,565 Speaker 1: United Nations Office on drugs and crime. 37 00:02:09,574 --> 00:02:12,615 Speaker 2: Hello, Steven. Hello everybody. Thanks for having me today. 38 00:02:12,625 --> 00:02:17,104 Speaker 1: Gentlemen, welcome. Let me start by asking how common are 39 00:02:17,115 --> 00:02:21,535 Speaker 1: billion dollar money laundering cases in the world? Fabrizio. 40 00:02:21,663 --> 00:02:25,735 Speaker 2: Yeah, let's say that billion dollar cases are not so common. 41 00:02:25,744 --> 00:02:28,804 Speaker 2: We do see some cases happening all around the globe. 42 00:02:29,339 --> 00:02:32,389 Speaker 2: But I have to say in this kind of magnitude 43 00:02:32,399 --> 00:02:36,758 Speaker 2: is quite rare. That's because there are some complexities and 44 00:02:36,770 --> 00:02:40,918 Speaker 2: difficulties which are embedded with preventing and investigating money laundering. 45 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,910 Speaker 2: So having that kind of result like this one, there 46 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:47,279 Speaker 2: isn't one in uh Singapore. It is quite astonishing. 47 00:02:47,470 --> 00:02:50,660 Speaker 1: So it sounds like million dollar transactions, not so unusual, 48 00:02:50,669 --> 00:02:52,059 Speaker 1: but when it hits the billion dollar, 49 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: maybe a bit more. So there's no secret that Singapore 50 00:02:55,610 --> 00:02:59,339 Speaker 1: is business friendly. We try to keep our taxes low. 51 00:02:59,350 --> 00:03:02,300 Speaker 1: We have many attractive incentives to attract the wealthy to 52 00:03:02,309 --> 00:03:05,100 Speaker 1: come from all over the world. So every day there's 53 00:03:05,110 --> 00:03:08,820 Speaker 1: actually lots of money flowing through our shores, but that's 54 00:03:08,830 --> 00:03:12,850 Speaker 1: what we want. Right. Well, as you know, Singapore is 55 00:03:12,860 --> 00:03:14,850 Speaker 1: a major financial hub. 56 00:03:15,429 --> 00:03:19,929 Speaker 1: So every day there are many, many financial transactions that 57 00:03:19,940 --> 00:03:23,258 Speaker 1: come in and out of our shores. It's a question 58 00:03:23,270 --> 00:03:28,059 Speaker 1: of due diligence that needs to be affirmed by our 59 00:03:28,070 --> 00:03:34,419 Speaker 1: financial institutions and those who manage the various financial transactions 60 00:03:34,710 --> 00:03:38,990 Speaker 1: with a huge volume of transactions. It is not an 61 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,610 Speaker 1: easy fit. And in fact, it is a big challenge 62 00:03:42,619 --> 00:03:47,460 Speaker 1: to try to identify if there were illegal transactions or 63 00:03:47,729 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: transactions that may be associated with money laundering very often. 64 00:03:53,330 --> 00:03:56,490 Speaker 1: It is like looking for a needle in the haystack, 65 00:03:56,500 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: but it really calls upon the agencies, the institutions 66 00:04:01,570 --> 00:04:06,130 Speaker 1: and all involved to do due diligence. So Adam, the 67 00:04:06,139 --> 00:04:09,350 Speaker 1: monetary authority of Singapore has pretty strict anti corruption and 68 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: anti money laundering laws. In fact, they've also set up 69 00:04:12,529 --> 00:04:15,500 Speaker 1: new rules for family officers because increasingly we have those 70 00:04:15,509 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 1: here in Singapore banks also have very strict scrutiny. So 71 00:04:19,250 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: why are criminals still able to evade these? 72 00:04:22,529 --> 00:04:24,988 Speaker 1: One of the key issues when it comes to money 73 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:29,190 Speaker 1: laundering is that the activities are decentralized. So you have 74 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,869 Speaker 1: a certain sum of money that people may want to launder, 75 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: but they are not going to put in a billion 76 00:04:35,010 --> 00:04:35,549 Speaker 1: at a time. 77 00:04:35,980 --> 00:04:39,109 Speaker 1: They are going to spread it out amongst many different players. 78 00:04:39,170 --> 00:04:41,859 Speaker 1: They are going to go to many different jurisdictions. They 79 00:04:41,869 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: are going to use different means to get the funds 80 00:04:44,850 --> 00:04:47,720 Speaker 1: where they want the funds to be. They could use 81 00:04:47,730 --> 00:04:52,070 Speaker 1: some Cryptocurrency trading exchanges, they could put a deposit in 82 00:04:52,079 --> 00:04:55,910 Speaker 1: a certain country, get that deposit collateralized, get a loan 83 00:04:55,988 --> 00:04:59,070 Speaker 1: and move the amounts from the loan to another country. 84 00:04:59,079 --> 00:05:02,178 Speaker 1: So that's one of the key problems is decentralized. There 85 00:05:02,190 --> 00:05:03,678 Speaker 1: are many, many different players involved. 86 00:05:03,765 --> 00:05:07,303 Speaker 1: So even if a bank, a particular financial institution does 87 00:05:07,315 --> 00:05:10,334 Speaker 1: their homework, does their K YC checks and think, OK, 88 00:05:10,345 --> 00:05:12,855 Speaker 1: this is OK on the face of it, that one 89 00:05:12,863 --> 00:05:15,595 Speaker 1: transaction may be fine. But if you combine it with 90 00:05:15,605 --> 00:05:19,385 Speaker 1: another 30 or 40 transactions, that's where the problem comes 91 00:05:19,394 --> 00:05:21,945 Speaker 1: in and that's where the difficulty comes in and trying 92 00:05:21,954 --> 00:05:24,625 Speaker 1: to enforce and trying to prevent these things from happening. 93 00:05:24,845 --> 00:05:29,834 Speaker 1: So in that sense, actually the individual transaction is fully legitimate. 94 00:05:29,915 --> 00:05:31,475 Speaker 1: It's abided by all the rules. 95 00:05:31,700 --> 00:05:35,049 Speaker 1: It's coming in a proper and legal way. But when 96 00:05:35,059 --> 00:05:38,010 Speaker 1: you combine it with all the other things they are doing, 97 00:05:38,019 --> 00:05:41,500 Speaker 1: then that raises suspicion is that what you say, even 98 00:05:41,510 --> 00:05:44,488 Speaker 1: if the transaction is not legitimate on the face of it, 99 00:05:44,619 --> 00:05:47,750 Speaker 1: there may not be enough red flags to trigger a 100 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 1: bank or a regulated entity from saying there's something wrong here. 101 00:05:52,609 --> 00:05:55,540 Speaker 1: I should raise this to the authorities because the ID 102 00:05:55,549 --> 00:05:58,969 Speaker 1: checks out, the purpose checks out and everything seems fine. 103 00:05:58,980 --> 00:05:59,239 Speaker 1: But 104 00:05:59,834 --> 00:06:02,885 Speaker 1: when you take this together with another 30 or 40 transactions, 105 00:06:02,894 --> 00:06:05,584 Speaker 1: that's where the problem is. And that's the intent right 106 00:06:05,595 --> 00:06:10,265 Speaker 1: to fly under the radar and be as inconspicuous as possible, 107 00:06:10,274 --> 00:06:13,183 Speaker 1: I guess from, from what you've seen is this quite 108 00:06:13,195 --> 00:06:14,475 Speaker 1: common in how they operate. 109 00:06:14,625 --> 00:06:17,684 Speaker 2: Yeah, Adam made very good points. And also if you 110 00:06:17,695 --> 00:06:20,515 Speaker 2: look at the history of the fight against money laundering, 111 00:06:20,565 --> 00:06:23,015 Speaker 2: we go back at the end of the eighties when 112 00:06:23,024 --> 00:06:26,164 Speaker 2: there was this massive issue of the drug cartels in 113 00:06:26,174 --> 00:06:26,994 Speaker 2: Latin America 114 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,428 Speaker 2: producing and distributing a vast amount of drugs. And at 115 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:35,170 Speaker 2: the same time also injecting illegal money into the financial system. 116 00:06:35,339 --> 00:06:38,200 Speaker 2: And at that time, the United Nations came out with 117 00:06:38,209 --> 00:06:42,420 Speaker 2: the first UN convention that actually mentioned uh that the 118 00:06:42,428 --> 00:06:45,219 Speaker 2: fight against money laundering because there has been an understanding 119 00:06:45,230 --> 00:06:45,670 Speaker 2: that there was a 120 00:06:45,738 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 2: need to address also the protection for the financial system 121 00:06:48,609 --> 00:06:50,529 Speaker 2: because there was this a lot of amount of money 122 00:06:50,540 --> 00:06:55,019 Speaker 2: that was polluting the legitimate economy with very serious consequences. 123 00:06:55,140 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 2: We are talking about many years ago and uh now 124 00:06:57,609 --> 00:07:00,049 Speaker 2: obviously there has been an evolution of all the concept 125 00:07:00,059 --> 00:07:02,659 Speaker 2: because money laundering is not just about drug trafficking. And 126 00:07:02,670 --> 00:07:03,959 Speaker 2: we know that there are so many 127 00:07:04,410 --> 00:07:08,109 Speaker 2: associated other type of crimes that can generate illegal money 128 00:07:08,119 --> 00:07:11,779 Speaker 2: and also the measures, the responses of the private sector 129 00:07:11,790 --> 00:07:15,049 Speaker 2: and the public sector, the criminal justice system has gone 130 00:07:15,059 --> 00:07:19,589 Speaker 2: through a parallel evolution. So there is this continuous chasing 131 00:07:19,829 --> 00:07:22,980 Speaker 2: one after the other one because where you have regulators 132 00:07:22,989 --> 00:07:24,059 Speaker 2: in the private sector, 133 00:07:24,429 --> 00:07:27,989 Speaker 2: putting in place very solid robust measures, you still have 134 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:31,859 Speaker 2: some kind of criminal organizations which manage to go through 135 00:07:31,869 --> 00:07:35,089 Speaker 2: all these processes because they're very resilient. They quickly adopt 136 00:07:35,100 --> 00:07:37,609 Speaker 2: if you look at crime as a feature of society, 137 00:07:37,619 --> 00:07:41,170 Speaker 2: probably the professor here can make better references, but you 138 00:07:41,179 --> 00:07:44,649 Speaker 2: can see that crime usually adapted very well to new 139 00:07:44,660 --> 00:07:45,339 Speaker 2: challenges as 140 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,179 Speaker 2: well. We had a good example from COVID where we 141 00:07:48,190 --> 00:07:52,399 Speaker 2: saw new forms of criminals coming out. So uh obviously, 142 00:07:52,410 --> 00:07:56,980 Speaker 2: it's a continuous situation where the criminals and the authorities 143 00:07:56,989 --> 00:07:58,440 Speaker 2: keep evolving. There's 144 00:07:58,450 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: a bit of a a rat race, so to speak, 145 00:08:00,450 --> 00:08:03,049 Speaker 1: you're trying to see who can stay ahead and and unfortunately, 146 00:08:03,059 --> 00:08:06,100 Speaker 1: criminals tend to really think out of the box and 147 00:08:06,109 --> 00:08:06,339 Speaker 1: find 148 00:08:06,450 --> 00:08:10,089 Speaker 1: ways to milk the system to their advantage. So when 149 00:08:10,100 --> 00:08:13,970 Speaker 1: you were at C PB Corrupt Practices Investigation Bureau, did 150 00:08:13,980 --> 00:08:16,269 Speaker 1: you find that was the challenge trying to sort of 151 00:08:16,279 --> 00:08:19,470 Speaker 1: keep up with what the bad actors were up to? Certainly, 152 00:08:19,480 --> 00:08:24,989 Speaker 1: this is an ongoing challenge for law enforcement agencies and 153 00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:31,510 Speaker 1: for governmental authorities. The challenge is compounded because those who 154 00:08:31,519 --> 00:08:33,830 Speaker 1: want to engage in money laundering 155 00:08:34,039 --> 00:08:38,380 Speaker 1: will keep on device ah new and creative ways of 156 00:08:38,390 --> 00:08:42,559 Speaker 1: doing it for the law enforcement agencies is just trying 157 00:08:42,570 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: to keep up and trying to figure out and trying 158 00:08:45,849 --> 00:08:50,090 Speaker 1: to unmask the different methods that have been used. And 159 00:08:50,099 --> 00:08:53,409 Speaker 1: one challenge, ah, that needs to be addressed is that 160 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 1: while we talk about Money trail and the trail of 161 00:08:56,969 --> 00:08:59,218 Speaker 1: the criminal proceeds 162 00:08:59,690 --> 00:09:04,020 Speaker 1: that needs to correspond and to tied up with the 163 00:09:04,030 --> 00:09:08,479 Speaker 1: bad actors, the persons who are involved, you also need 164 00:09:08,489 --> 00:09:14,359 Speaker 1: to look at their movement, their activities and their interaction patterns. 165 00:09:14,580 --> 00:09:19,429 Speaker 1: And it is a combination of understanding the money movement 166 00:09:19,799 --> 00:09:23,098 Speaker 1: as well as the person movement that you then get 167 00:09:23,109 --> 00:09:27,890 Speaker 1: a complete picture. And that is of course, extremely difficult 168 00:09:27,900 --> 00:09:28,890 Speaker 1: and challenging. 169 00:09:29,270 --> 00:09:31,789 Speaker 1: Yeah. So in a way, you're almost saying to profile 170 00:09:31,799 --> 00:09:34,539 Speaker 1: the person to understand whether this guy is actually a 171 00:09:34,580 --> 00:09:38,539 Speaker 1: legitimate businessman or a dubious criminal, which can be quite 172 00:09:38,739 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 1: hard to differentiate the two. So in some cases, when 173 00:09:42,450 --> 00:09:44,150 Speaker 1: the suspects are caught, they are also found to be 174 00:09:44,159 --> 00:09:47,500 Speaker 1: holding citizenships from other countries that they were not born 175 00:09:47,510 --> 00:09:51,489 Speaker 1: in or even holding resident passes, employment passes, allowing them 176 00:09:51,500 --> 00:09:54,169 Speaker 1: to stay and work legitimately in those countries. 177 00:09:54,719 --> 00:09:57,978 Speaker 1: Is this common, Adam? Is it easy to just pick 178 00:09:57,989 --> 00:10:01,340 Speaker 1: up a citizenship or an employment pass from certain countries? 179 00:10:01,619 --> 00:10:04,449 Speaker 1: It's more common than you would think coming from Singapore. 180 00:10:04,750 --> 00:10:08,020 Speaker 1: It's not easy to get APR or citizenship here. 181 00:10:08,450 --> 00:10:12,130 Speaker 1: But in a number of cases, we have seen people 182 00:10:12,140 --> 00:10:16,270 Speaker 1: being able to procure passports from other jurisdictions and that 183 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,030 Speaker 1: certainly does help them if they want to engage in 184 00:10:19,039 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 1: any illicit activity. Does it raise any red flags? Can 185 00:10:22,090 --> 00:10:25,719 Speaker 1: we tell if there has been citizenship by investment? From 186 00:10:25,729 --> 00:10:29,309 Speaker 1: my understanding, some countries allow that it's not illegal. If you, 187 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:30,979 Speaker 1: you bring in a certain amount of funds to a 188 00:10:30,989 --> 00:10:33,989 Speaker 1: certain country, then you could get citizenship within a rather 189 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,169 Speaker 1: short period of time. So if someone is looking at 190 00:10:37,179 --> 00:10:41,609 Speaker 1: a particular transaction and there is a dual citizenship on 191 00:10:41,619 --> 00:10:44,010 Speaker 1: the face of it, the person involved may not really 192 00:10:44,020 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: have anything to do with the second country. Then that 193 00:10:47,409 --> 00:10:49,859 Speaker 1: might be a possible indicator that 194 00:10:50,349 --> 00:10:52,500 Speaker 1: the entity involved should be doing a bit more checks 195 00:10:52,510 --> 00:10:55,830 Speaker 1: to ensure that the transaction is above par. Fabrizio. What 196 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:57,349 Speaker 1: do you think? How difficult is that 197 00:10:57,609 --> 00:11:00,229 Speaker 2: it is difficult for me to stop because it's a 198 00:11:00,239 --> 00:11:04,270 Speaker 2: legitimate process. Some jurisdictions, they don't have much financial resources. 199 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,729 Speaker 2: So they rely also on this kind of investment so 200 00:11:06,739 --> 00:11:09,590 Speaker 2: they attract foreign investment. Uh also in this way that 201 00:11:09,599 --> 00:11:12,189 Speaker 2: can be used in a legitimate way. But the problem 202 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,450 Speaker 2: is that criminals try the ways to misuse this system. 203 00:11:15,739 --> 00:11:19,500 Speaker 2: And then it's once again difficult to discriminate between who 204 00:11:19,510 --> 00:11:24,159 Speaker 2: is doing legitimate activities, who is actually misusing this system again, 205 00:11:24,169 --> 00:11:25,429 Speaker 2: for committing criminal 206 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:27,949 Speaker 1: offenses. And when you look at it from the United 207 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:30,909 Speaker 1: Nations point of view, do countries or agencies like Interpol 208 00:11:30,919 --> 00:11:33,239 Speaker 1: also share information of this to sort of keep track 209 00:11:33,250 --> 00:11:35,909 Speaker 1: on certain individuals who might be a bit more suspicious. 210 00:11:35,969 --> 00:11:38,380 Speaker 2: Yes, there are system in place and uh the the 211 00:11:38,390 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 2: Interpol channel is a good channel. They share information about 212 00:11:42,099 --> 00:11:45,940 Speaker 2: identities. And when the the interested country who is looking 213 00:11:45,950 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 2: for a wanted person is actually get the knowledge that 214 00:11:49,770 --> 00:11:52,750 Speaker 2: the same person has acquired a new citizenship with a 215 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:53,669 Speaker 2: new passport 216 00:11:53,969 --> 00:11:56,839 Speaker 2: and most likely with a kind of new identity because 217 00:11:56,849 --> 00:12:00,140 Speaker 2: sometimes the translation of names gives the opportunity to give 218 00:12:00,150 --> 00:12:03,319 Speaker 2: a new identity. In that case, they do share information 219 00:12:03,330 --> 00:12:06,020 Speaker 2: also through the Interpol channel and there have been successful 220 00:12:06,030 --> 00:12:09,710 Speaker 2: cases where suspects have been arrested while traveling using these 221 00:12:09,719 --> 00:12:10,849 Speaker 2: new identities. 222 00:12:11,109 --> 00:12:13,780 Speaker 1: My understanding is that I'm sure if you were wanted 223 00:12:13,789 --> 00:12:16,309 Speaker 1: in one country, you might try and move to another 224 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,750 Speaker 1: country and live there under perhaps even a a different name. 225 00:12:20,010 --> 00:12:22,349 Speaker 1: And it could be quite hard to know whether that 226 00:12:22,359 --> 00:12:24,739 Speaker 1: person because you can't tell what's happened in the other country. 227 00:12:24,750 --> 00:12:24,940 Speaker 1: It 228 00:12:24,950 --> 00:12:26,710 Speaker 2: is difficult anyway, it is difficult. 229 00:12:26,799 --> 00:12:30,150 Speaker 1: Criminals also tend to put their money into physical assets, 230 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,329 Speaker 1: property homes, cars, luxury items, perhaps Adam, you can shed 231 00:12:34,340 --> 00:12:36,549 Speaker 1: a bit of light because for example, here in Singapore, 232 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:39,080 Speaker 1: where we know the property market is quite tight, you know, 233 00:12:39,090 --> 00:12:40,630 Speaker 1: so when someone starts picking 234 00:12:40,713 --> 00:12:44,043 Speaker 1: up lots of property, should that also be another red 235 00:12:44,052 --> 00:12:47,252 Speaker 1: flag sort of property agents duty bound to also raise 236 00:12:47,263 --> 00:12:51,242 Speaker 1: those red flags. Currently, property agents are actually required to 237 00:12:51,252 --> 00:12:53,583 Speaker 1: do some level of checks. So you have to check 238 00:12:53,593 --> 00:12:57,143 Speaker 1: identification that the person you're dealing with is the person 239 00:12:57,153 --> 00:13:00,002 Speaker 1: whom they say they are. They don't really need to 240 00:13:00,013 --> 00:13:01,333 Speaker 1: inquire as to the purpose 241 00:13:01,416 --> 00:13:04,944 Speaker 1: of the transaction at this point in time. But I 242 00:13:04,955 --> 00:13:07,656 Speaker 1: think you raise a good point if someone is amassing 243 00:13:07,666 --> 00:13:10,416 Speaker 1: a large number of properties and it doesn't seem to 244 00:13:10,426 --> 00:13:13,715 Speaker 1: be any ostensible reason for them to be doing. So 245 00:13:13,726 --> 00:13:16,556 Speaker 1: then that that could be an indicator in so far 246 00:13:16,565 --> 00:13:19,366 Speaker 1: as people have done this in Singapore, they are quite 247 00:13:19,375 --> 00:13:21,995 Speaker 1: careful that it's not the same person 248 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:26,719 Speaker 1: buying the properties. It's all as I mentioned earlier, quite decentralized. 249 00:13:26,729 --> 00:13:28,919 Speaker 1: So that on the face of it, the person that 250 00:13:28,929 --> 00:13:31,650 Speaker 1: you're dealing with doesn't really seem to be doing anything 251 00:13:31,849 --> 00:13:35,130 Speaker 1: that's amiss, but it's taken in conjunction with other things 252 00:13:35,140 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: that the concerns arise. And I imagine they may even 253 00:13:38,330 --> 00:13:43,659 Speaker 1: use different property agents, different property companies just to again 254 00:13:43,669 --> 00:13:46,729 Speaker 1: keep each transaction quite individual. 255 00:13:47,099 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 1: So how then will we sort of try and keep 256 00:13:50,450 --> 00:13:52,919 Speaker 1: track of these people at which point does it become 257 00:13:52,929 --> 00:13:56,369 Speaker 1: an issue? Because a rich individual buying three or four 258 00:13:56,380 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 1: properties may not really raise any alarm bells. But 259 00:13:59,849 --> 00:14:02,599 Speaker 1: I guess once you cross 56, how do we sort 260 00:14:02,609 --> 00:14:04,619 Speaker 1: of measure that pro so what do you think a 261 00:14:04,820 --> 00:14:09,489 Speaker 1: question of what red flags can be identified with some 262 00:14:09,500 --> 00:14:14,119 Speaker 1: of these transactions? For example, if someone comes around to 263 00:14:14,130 --> 00:14:18,460 Speaker 1: buy luxurious property. Some of the behavior may be a 264 00:14:18,469 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 1: little bit out of the ordinary. For example, they do 265 00:14:23,210 --> 00:14:25,799 Speaker 1: not even look at the property 266 00:14:26,349 --> 00:14:31,109 Speaker 1: or they don't really negotiate the buying price or they 267 00:14:31,119 --> 00:14:36,349 Speaker 1: are not willing to indicate some information that the property 268 00:14:36,359 --> 00:14:40,090 Speaker 1: agent may have asked for. So some red flags may 269 00:14:40,099 --> 00:14:42,270 Speaker 1: have to be picked up and that may tell us 270 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:47,030 Speaker 1: something is amiss. But if it is a multiple property 271 00:14:47,039 --> 00:14:52,690 Speaker 1: transactions and if it's spread out among different property agents, 272 00:14:52,859 --> 00:14:54,250 Speaker 1: different buyers 273 00:14:54,590 --> 00:14:59,210 Speaker 1: and they may also engage different convincing lawyers. So as 274 00:14:59,219 --> 00:15:02,669 Speaker 1: to not draw much attention to it, then it it 275 00:15:02,679 --> 00:15:06,099 Speaker 1: only means that people who have to watch over this 276 00:15:06,109 --> 00:15:10,270 Speaker 1: such as the regulators, right? Or maybe the uh at 277 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:16,789 Speaker 1: the property company level, some amount of monitoring and data analysis, 278 00:15:16,929 --> 00:15:19,349 Speaker 1: 6 may be helpful. Yeah, that's kind of like saying 279 00:15:19,359 --> 00:15:23,309 Speaker 1: if the same individual buys five properties that should think, 280 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,530 Speaker 1: you know, raise an alarm and I should be curious 281 00:15:25,539 --> 00:15:28,799 Speaker 1: to find out more. But then again, as a property 282 00:15:28,809 --> 00:15:31,229 Speaker 1: agent or a property company, you just want to make 283 00:15:31,239 --> 00:15:34,309 Speaker 1: that money, right? So how can we force these people 284 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: to raise an alarm which may then be false and 285 00:15:38,010 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: then they may lose a 286 00:15:39,270 --> 00:15:42,530 Speaker 1: potential customer, so to speak. Is there a concern there 287 00:15:42,539 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 1: as well? Of course, the law imposes the requirement on 288 00:15:46,849 --> 00:15:52,349 Speaker 1: property agents and various other professionals to lodge suspicious transaction report, 289 00:15:52,359 --> 00:15:55,229 Speaker 1: but you are right. If this goes to the nub 290 00:15:55,239 --> 00:15:58,609 Speaker 1: of the issue that they are doing a business, surely 291 00:15:58,619 --> 00:16:01,489 Speaker 1: they don't want to lose a big customer. 292 00:16:01,830 --> 00:16:06,070 Speaker 1: But nonetheless, it is an obligation on their part. They should, uh, 293 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:11,429 Speaker 1: carefully evaluate because, uh, if they just close an eye 294 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:16,890 Speaker 1: and just merrily transact the property, they may be facilitating 295 00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:20,700 Speaker 1: money laundering and if they are not found out today, 296 00:16:20,979 --> 00:16:22,650 Speaker 1: they could be found out tomorrow 297 00:16:23,159 --> 00:16:26,979 Speaker 1: a month later and then they will face legal consequences 298 00:16:27,020 --> 00:16:29,859 Speaker 1: because that is a criminal offense. Right? Yes, that's right 299 00:16:29,929 --> 00:16:32,140 Speaker 1: for me too. I mean, you've heard all this discussion 300 00:16:32,150 --> 00:16:34,049 Speaker 1: as well and it sounds like these are really tough 301 00:16:34,059 --> 00:16:39,239 Speaker 1: waters to navigate. So how can countries and authorities better 302 00:16:39,250 --> 00:16:40,299 Speaker 1: deal with it? This is some, 303 00:16:40,409 --> 00:16:43,309 Speaker 1: I think that needs to be a global regional kind 304 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:44,210 Speaker 1: of thing. It's a 305 00:16:44,219 --> 00:16:47,359 Speaker 2: global problem. Uh Obviously, uh when you deal with uh 306 00:16:47,369 --> 00:16:51,450 Speaker 2: money launderers or transnational crime in general, you, you have 307 00:16:51,460 --> 00:16:55,799 Speaker 2: to look at international interconnections which are put in place 308 00:16:55,809 --> 00:17:00,109 Speaker 2: by these kind of subjects to improve the situation. Obviously, 309 00:17:00,119 --> 00:17:01,739 Speaker 2: there is a need first for having 310 00:17:02,099 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 2: proper solid legislation in place and regulations. Then there is 311 00:17:06,050 --> 00:17:10,060 Speaker 2: a need for really strong political will to address the 312 00:17:10,069 --> 00:17:12,430 Speaker 2: issue of money laundering because you need to have proper 313 00:17:12,439 --> 00:17:16,709 Speaker 2: resources assigned to those who are supposed to regulate and 314 00:17:16,719 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 2: enforce the legislation against money laundering. 315 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,310 Speaker 2: And then you have uh the the need for the 316 00:17:22,319 --> 00:17:25,640 Speaker 2: private sector in general to understand the risks that they 317 00:17:25,650 --> 00:17:28,939 Speaker 2: are exposed to when they deal with their customers, putting 318 00:17:28,949 --> 00:17:32,530 Speaker 2: us together is quite encouraging. Now, also in Singapore to 319 00:17:32,540 --> 00:17:35,659 Speaker 2: see that there are very good initiatives in facilitating the 320 00:17:35,670 --> 00:17:39,478 Speaker 2: discussions between the private and public sectors. So they share 321 00:17:39,489 --> 00:17:43,379 Speaker 2: information much easier way compared to a few years ago 322 00:17:43,390 --> 00:17:45,260 Speaker 2: because we have different kinds of skills 323 00:17:45,530 --> 00:17:48,739 Speaker 2: in knowledge which are in use in the private sector. 324 00:17:48,750 --> 00:17:52,170 Speaker 2: We are very skilled now, bank officers who are uh 325 00:17:52,180 --> 00:17:55,649 Speaker 2: very capable of understanding the risks they are exposed in 326 00:17:55,660 --> 00:17:59,510 Speaker 2: many situations which the bank officers will uh seems to 327 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:00,649 Speaker 2: act really like it. 328 00:18:00,755 --> 00:18:04,204 Speaker 2: Investigators much more than law enforcement in some countries. On 329 00:18:04,214 --> 00:18:07,024 Speaker 2: the other side, you have law enforcement investigators who have 330 00:18:07,035 --> 00:18:11,214 Speaker 2: access to more information regarding possible criminal activities that they 331 00:18:11,224 --> 00:18:14,395 Speaker 2: can combine this kind of information in an easier way 332 00:18:14,405 --> 00:18:15,895 Speaker 2: and then fight properly. 333 00:18:19,660 --> 00:18:22,448 Speaker 1: Hello, my name is Steve LA and I'm Theresa Tang 334 00:18:22,459 --> 00:18:25,349 Speaker 1: and we are the hosts of CN A correspondent, a 335 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,229 Speaker 1: podcast that takes you to the heart of the work 336 00:18:28,239 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: our correspondents do across the globe from China's COVID response 337 00:18:32,530 --> 00:18:35,859 Speaker 1: to the childcare center massacre in Thailand and 338 00:18:36,035 --> 00:18:38,545 Speaker 1: the fall of Najib Razak to the rise of Anwar 339 00:18:38,555 --> 00:18:42,145 Speaker 1: Ibrahim as Malaysia's Prime Minister, we speak to the people 340 00:18:42,155 --> 00:18:45,054 Speaker 1: at the reporting front lines. So if you want to 341 00:18:45,064 --> 00:18:48,564 Speaker 1: know how the biggest global stories unfold, make sure you 342 00:18:48,574 --> 00:18:52,295 Speaker 1: follow or subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts. 343 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,930 Speaker 1: So Adam would it help if there were more stricter 344 00:19:01,939 --> 00:19:05,699 Speaker 1: regulations in a country here? Like Singapore, would that help 345 00:19:05,709 --> 00:19:08,530 Speaker 1: prevent such things from happening? Because again, we want to 346 00:19:08,540 --> 00:19:11,069 Speaker 1: attract business here. So it's kind of a fine line. 347 00:19:11,079 --> 00:19:12,900 Speaker 1: How do you balance the both of them? So I 348 00:19:12,910 --> 00:19:17,550 Speaker 1: don't think that stricter regulations are necessarily the answer. Currently, 349 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:20,910 Speaker 1: there is an act in place which requires banks, etcetera 350 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:25,339 Speaker 1: to file a suspicious transaction reports if they suspect that 351 00:19:25,349 --> 00:19:27,579 Speaker 1: they are dealing with proceeds of criminal conduct. 352 00:19:27,939 --> 00:19:30,708 Speaker 1: And the threshold is quite low, it just requires the 353 00:19:30,719 --> 00:19:34,438 Speaker 1: person involved to have a reasonable suspicion or knowledge that 354 00:19:34,449 --> 00:19:37,659 Speaker 1: what they're dealing with could be the proceeds of criminal conduct. 355 00:19:37,670 --> 00:19:40,880 Speaker 1: So I think the solution really is to have more 356 00:19:40,890 --> 00:19:45,489 Speaker 1: cooper operation and communication between different agencies. And I think 357 00:19:45,500 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 1: this is something the monetary authority of Singapore has realized 358 00:19:48,689 --> 00:19:52,659 Speaker 1: because they've essentially found that well, the banks by themselves, 359 00:19:52,770 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 1: they are 360 00:19:53,306 --> 00:19:56,764 Speaker 1: filing the ST of the suspicious transaction reports when they 361 00:19:56,776 --> 00:19:59,796 Speaker 1: need to. But sometimes they don't realize that there could 362 00:19:59,806 --> 00:20:03,566 Speaker 1: be potential issues because there's a lack of communication between 363 00:20:03,576 --> 00:20:08,125 Speaker 1: the banks. There's been recent intended amendments to legislation and 364 00:20:08,135 --> 00:20:10,436 Speaker 1: the mas is intending to come up with something known 365 00:20:10,446 --> 00:20:14,734 Speaker 1: as cosmic or the collaborative sharing of money laundering terrorist 366 00:20:14,744 --> 00:20:18,556 Speaker 1: financing information and cases. So this is essentially a platform 367 00:20:18,942 --> 00:20:21,910 Speaker 1: where banks can communicate with each other. And if they 368 00:20:21,921 --> 00:20:26,052 Speaker 1: suspect unusual activity on the part of one of their 369 00:20:26,061 --> 00:20:29,291 Speaker 1: customers then they may be able to share information and 370 00:20:29,381 --> 00:20:33,031 Speaker 1: it may help to raise more awareness. It may help 371 00:20:33,041 --> 00:20:36,491 Speaker 1: to identify cases that previously right now they won't be 372 00:20:36,501 --> 00:20:40,722 Speaker 1: able to identify as being potentially problematic cases because otherwise 373 00:20:40,732 --> 00:20:43,640 Speaker 1: you're saying bank A may be suspicious of a certain customer, 374 00:20:43,651 --> 00:20:43,972 Speaker 1: but 375 00:20:44,290 --> 00:20:46,770 Speaker 1: Bank B won't know about it. And I guess because 376 00:20:46,780 --> 00:20:49,050 Speaker 1: of privacy issues, they wouldn't share that kind of information 377 00:20:49,060 --> 00:20:52,390 Speaker 1: as well. Right. So exactly the transaction by itself might 378 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:55,310 Speaker 1: pass master. They might have a question mark about something 379 00:20:55,319 --> 00:20:58,459 Speaker 1: but maybe in conjunction with information from Bank B and 380 00:20:58,469 --> 00:21:01,109 Speaker 1: Bank C, then they might say, oh yeah, actually there's 381 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,339 Speaker 1: a problem whereas by themselves, they might say we tick 382 00:21:04,349 --> 00:21:06,469 Speaker 1: all the boxes, we are ok. We don't need to 383 00:21:06,479 --> 00:21:09,260 Speaker 1: file an SDR especially if the guy is banking with 384 00:21:09,270 --> 00:21:10,770 Speaker 1: bank ABC D 385 00:21:12,026 --> 00:21:14,616 Speaker 1: with larger sums of money then you know, ok, something's wrong. 386 00:21:14,626 --> 00:21:18,146 Speaker 1: Can technology help fit? What do you think A I 387 00:21:18,156 --> 00:21:21,546 Speaker 1: change the game? Can it help catch these guys? 388 00:21:21,737 --> 00:21:25,186 Speaker 2: Yeah, going back to the initial introduction I made obviously 389 00:21:25,196 --> 00:21:28,866 Speaker 2: it's gonna help both criminals and whoever is chasing them 390 00:21:29,046 --> 00:21:33,107 Speaker 2: because we see opportunities anytime uh raising up also for 391 00:21:33,116 --> 00:21:36,646 Speaker 2: the bad actors. But obviously now the regulators in the 392 00:21:36,656 --> 00:21:38,266 Speaker 2: private sector should see 393 00:21:38,484 --> 00:21:43,134 Speaker 2: how new technologies like artificial intelligence can actually help in facilitating, 394 00:21:43,154 --> 00:21:47,543 Speaker 2: finding out whomever is actually hiding their criminal activities throughout 395 00:21:47,553 --> 00:21:50,943 Speaker 2: the thousands of transactions who are being registered every day. 396 00:21:51,404 --> 00:21:54,453 Speaker 1: So how should we approach is if you had something 397 00:21:54,463 --> 00:21:56,404 Speaker 1: you could change moving forward, what do you think would 398 00:21:56,413 --> 00:21:59,193 Speaker 1: be an effective way to help prevent money laundering from 399 00:21:59,203 --> 00:22:04,654 Speaker 1: hitting our shores? One of the important element is international 400 00:22:04,663 --> 00:22:05,313 Speaker 1: cooperations 401 00:22:05,590 --> 00:22:10,071 Speaker 1: because much of the money laundering that we see has 402 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:15,619 Speaker 1: an international character. It involves not just Singapore but other jurisdictions. 403 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,470 Speaker 1: So it will not be effective if we only look 404 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:22,500 Speaker 1: at what we have and improve only what we have 405 00:22:22,671 --> 00:22:27,110 Speaker 1: because it is necessary to get the other countries on board. 406 00:22:27,350 --> 00:22:32,301 Speaker 1: Money flows from country to country at a very rapid pace. 407 00:22:32,660 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 1: And it is necessary that countries are able to react. 408 00:22:36,650 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 1: It would not help if countries seek assistance from each other. 409 00:22:41,569 --> 00:22:46,079 Speaker 1: And then the response doesn't come or the response takes 410 00:22:46,089 --> 00:22:49,119 Speaker 1: a very long while. And we are looking at not 411 00:22:49,130 --> 00:22:52,188 Speaker 1: just the money trail that crosses borders 412 00:22:52,510 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: but also the back actors. As we mentioned earlier, the 413 00:22:56,689 --> 00:23:01,930 Speaker 1: movement of the people who are involved across borders and 414 00:23:01,939 --> 00:23:06,139 Speaker 1: information sharing about the persons of interest. You know, you 415 00:23:06,150 --> 00:23:09,329 Speaker 1: may need information on what they have done. You may 416 00:23:09,339 --> 00:23:14,129 Speaker 1: need background information, information on persons, companies and so on. 417 00:23:14,900 --> 00:23:20,020 Speaker 1: In order for various countries to successfully fight money laundering, 418 00:23:20,030 --> 00:23:24,500 Speaker 1: we do need to see much more effective International Cooper. 419 00:23:24,699 --> 00:23:26,790 Speaker 1: It does sound like you almost want a list of 420 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,409 Speaker 1: some of the suspected bad actors from around the world. 421 00:23:30,420 --> 00:23:32,849 Speaker 1: That's something that every country has access to. So they 422 00:23:32,859 --> 00:23:35,228 Speaker 1: can better keep an eye on their own shores as well. 423 00:23:35,239 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: Adam 424 00:23:35,969 --> 00:23:38,319 Speaker 1: last thoughts on this also in terms of how can 425 00:23:38,329 --> 00:23:42,250 Speaker 1: we move forward as echoed by my co speakers, collaboration 426 00:23:42,260 --> 00:23:45,589 Speaker 1: and Cooper operation will be key technology will help. But 427 00:23:45,599 --> 00:23:49,329 Speaker 1: the reality is that the regulators will always be one 428 00:23:49,339 --> 00:23:52,829 Speaker 1: step behind because when a new technology comes up, there 429 00:23:52,839 --> 00:23:55,670 Speaker 1: needs to be time for legislation to be put in place, 430 00:23:55,780 --> 00:23:57,569 Speaker 1: the criminals will always be faster. 431 00:23:57,880 --> 00:23:59,900 Speaker 1: And so I think what we need is co-operation and 432 00:23:59,910 --> 00:24:03,510 Speaker 1: we also need legislation in place that encourages the cooper 433 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,379 Speaker 1: operation and also gives the flexibility to the regulators and 434 00:24:07,390 --> 00:24:09,410 Speaker 1: the authorities to do what they need to do to 435 00:24:09,420 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: stop these kinds of activities. This is one battle that 436 00:24:12,810 --> 00:24:15,540 Speaker 1: doesn't sound like it's ending any time soon. Well, gentlemen, 437 00:24:15,550 --> 00:24:19,020 Speaker 1: thank you for coming and sharing your insights on this issue. 438 00:24:19,349 --> 00:24:21,889 Speaker 1: It really is a larger scheme of things and these 439 00:24:21,900 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: billion dollars floating around in different countries coming into the 440 00:24:25,410 --> 00:24:28,310 Speaker 1: shores in different ways is something that is very distant 441 00:24:28,319 --> 00:24:31,650 Speaker 1: for the average person living in a country, the average 442 00:24:31,660 --> 00:24:33,969 Speaker 1: Singaporean here. But we all want to make sure that 443 00:24:33,979 --> 00:24:36,369 Speaker 1: we try and keep our countries as clean and safe 444 00:24:36,380 --> 00:24:40,239 Speaker 1: as possible from any kind of criminal activities after all. 445 00:24:40,250 --> 00:24:41,050 Speaker 1: That's also what 446 00:24:41,185 --> 00:24:44,285 Speaker 1: our reputation alive as a country and as an economy. 447 00:24:44,425 --> 00:24:46,573 Speaker 1: So thank you all for listening. Do leave a comment 448 00:24:46,704 --> 00:24:48,604 Speaker 1: if you've been listening to our podcast and you like 449 00:24:48,614 --> 00:24:51,204 Speaker 1: what you hear, just jump on to Spotify and Apple 450 00:24:51,214 --> 00:24:53,915 Speaker 1: and give us a good review. Hopefully, the team behind 451 00:24:53,925 --> 00:24:57,155 Speaker 1: this podcast is Jack Chan, Joan Chan. Say when Tiffany 452 00:24:57,604 --> 00:25:02,104 Speaker 1: Justly Tan and Christina Robert and I'm Steven Ch signing off. 453 00:25:02,114 --> 00:25:02,925 Speaker 1: Bye for now.