WEBVTT - Returning lost artifacts – a boon or a bane?

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<v Speaker 1>Now, CNA 938 rewind.

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<v Speaker 2>Returning stolen or lost items back to their rightful owners

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<v Speaker 2>is naturally the right thing to do, right?

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<v Speaker 2>But what happens if the receivers, they do not have

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<v Speaker 2>the capacity to accept the objects? Oh wow. Yeah, so

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<v Speaker 2>that's the issue, right? Right now that Cambodia's National Museum

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<v Speaker 2>is facing as the country's stolen statues are coming home

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<v Speaker 2>to an overflowing museum. Uh, so foreign institutions and collectors

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<v Speaker 2>are returning artifacts with deep spiritual meaning for Cambodians, but

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<v Speaker 2>where and how to displace them remain open questions.

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<v Speaker 2>In the case of Bali, on the other hand, safety

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<v Speaker 2>and security are a concern when considering where these returned

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<v Speaker 2>artifacts should go, and these are really fragile items. I've

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<v Speaker 2>been to museums in Kathmandu in Nepal, and these are really,

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<v Speaker 2>really ancient stuff and it's made with materials that were

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<v Speaker 2>not the most sophisticated at the time, so there's decay

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<v Speaker 2>to consider as well. Uh, several academics do feel that

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<v Speaker 2>really

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<v Speaker 2>Religious objects should be returned to the people of Bali.

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<v Speaker 2>Some Indonesian officials say they may be safer in Jakarta

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<v Speaker 2>given Bali's theft situation. So returning lost artifacts to the

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<v Speaker 2>countries of origin is not a simple task. So we

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<v Speaker 2>want to find out more about how complicated this is

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<v Speaker 2>now with Dr. Karen Oon. She's director for the NTU

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<v Speaker 2>Center for Contemporary Art in Singapore. She is also senior

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<v Speaker 2>lecturer and head of department for art.

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<v Speaker 2>Art history at NTU's School of Humanities. Doctor Karen, good

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<v Speaker 2>to have you on the show. Really excited to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about this one because uh I'm a big museum goer

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<v Speaker 2>myself and this is quite uh a complicated matter, something

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<v Speaker 2>that I didn't expect to be so complex. So let's

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<v Speaker 2>get right into it. For a start, help us understand beyond,

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<v Speaker 2>I suppose the moral rationale, moral reasoning, why actually is

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<v Speaker 2>it important to return stolen

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<v Speaker 2>Or lost artifacts or even art to their rightful owners. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>thank you for spending some time thinking about this very

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<v Speaker 2>urgent issue. Um, I like to think that part of

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<v Speaker 2>why it's so important is that it's not just about

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<v Speaker 2>uh uh context where there is someone who has been wronged.

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<v Speaker 2>Needs to be made whole by the return of these artifacts,

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<v Speaker 2>but also understanding the larger role that cultural patrimony has

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<v Speaker 2>for all of us, that it's not just about two parties,

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<v Speaker 2>it's about sort of how we as a people in

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<v Speaker 2>the 21st century want to think about uh cultural patrimony.

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<v Speaker 2>Um, this is, this is one of the sort of

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<v Speaker 2>bigger issues. I think there's also a very practical reason

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<v Speaker 2>to think about um how, how the return of um stolen,

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<v Speaker 2>looted or otherwise sort of ill-gotten objects, um, has, has

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<v Speaker 2>a role to play. It, it's also the idea that

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<v Speaker 2>things have been collected um for the sake of being collected.

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<v Speaker 2>And then when we, when we think about objects, when

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<v Speaker 2>we think about their cultural significance that it's not just

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<v Speaker 2>about keeping them locked away where they can be sort

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<v Speaker 2>of safely studied, um, it's really about thinking about how

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<v Speaker 2>can we get this material into the public eye.

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<v Speaker 2>Um, so for, for better or for worse, I think

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<v Speaker 2>that the, the controversies right now around the sort of

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<v Speaker 2>literal return of objects are part of a bigger conversation

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<v Speaker 2>about the importance of this material. Yeah, you brought up

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<v Speaker 2>a very good point there about how to sort of

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<v Speaker 2>reintroduce these items back into the public domain and that's

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<v Speaker 2>something that um

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<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't say it doesn't sit well with me, but

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<v Speaker 2>I'm trying to understand better because I'm a big museum

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<v Speaker 2>goer and when I go to the Louvre and you

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<v Speaker 2>go to the Met in New York and you get

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<v Speaker 2>to see these really ancient artifacts collected over the years,

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<v Speaker 2>whether through ill-gotten gains or not. Um, and one can

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<v Speaker 2>argue that viewing these artifacts are exactly what visitors go

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<v Speaker 2>there for, right? To be educated, to be informed, to

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<v Speaker 2>see these things in real life and these are cities

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<v Speaker 2>that

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<v Speaker 2>Perhaps would be more accessible to people than others. So

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<v Speaker 2>if such artifacts are then returned, what happens to the

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<v Speaker 2>educational value of having them at such major museums?

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<v Speaker 2>Great question. Uh, I think, you know, one thing to

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<v Speaker 2>point out, um, is that museum collections are gigantic. The

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<v Speaker 2>project of collecting, especially encyclopedic collections for universal museums, um,

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<v Speaker 2>has created the situation where at any given time, a

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<v Speaker 2>major museum like the Louvre might have, I don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>less than 10% of its collection on view. So,

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<v Speaker 2>Repatriation of objects that are specifically requested by claimants, the

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<v Speaker 2>repatriation of objects that have very specific cultural significance does

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<v Speaker 2>not mean that all of a sudden, the museum storage

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<v Speaker 2>would be bare. Um, the other side of that is,

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<v Speaker 2>as I said, I don't think it's just about museums.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's about education and as we all know,

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<v Speaker 2>we are in a very digital age. There are ways

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<v Speaker 2>to think about these objects, not just

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<v Speaker 2>In terms of their firsthand study or access by visiting museums,

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<v Speaker 2>but also how can they become part of a larger

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<v Speaker 2>conversation around teaching history in a different way. Dr. Corin,

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<v Speaker 2>we talked earlier about how countries have had to reject

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<v Speaker 2>stolen artifacts in some cases. What are the scenarios in

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<v Speaker 2>which the process isn't a smooth one?

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<v Speaker 2>Hm, I mean, there, there are so many examples. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>if you start to look into these, these cases, you

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<v Speaker 2>can find that there are, you know, sort of very

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<v Speaker 2>tricky situations because, you know, the, the larger agreements that

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<v Speaker 2>um that are the sort of guiding principles for the

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<v Speaker 2>legal repatriation um of of these materials are universal in scope, right?

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<v Speaker 2>So we have the Hague Convention from 1954, uh, we

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<v Speaker 2>have um much more sort of recent legislation within the

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<v Speaker 2>1990s from Unihua.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh, but those are sort of, again, these are aspirational,

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<v Speaker 2>these are general, you have to then go down to

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<v Speaker 2>the sort of local or in some cases, national, um, uh, laws. Uh,

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<v Speaker 2>and so maybe one thing to point out is also

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<v Speaker 2>within any given sort of modern day sovereign nation, um,

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<v Speaker 2>there are different cultural communities or cultural constituencies. So you

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<v Speaker 2>might have indigenous communities who in theory are on the

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<v Speaker 2>territory of this sovereign nation state, and yet,

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<v Speaker 2>They are trying to appeal, perhaps not through the um

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<v Speaker 2>governing laws relating to cultural patrimony, but to a slightly

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<v Speaker 2>different story, the sort of ongoing um settler colonialism that

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<v Speaker 2>is part of their reality that has created a, say,

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<v Speaker 2>national museum that holds artifacts or other objects that are

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<v Speaker 2>specific to their communities. And so I think that's an

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<v Speaker 2>example of something that is often quite hard to legislate.

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<v Speaker 2>Because you have um possibly different communities also who are

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<v Speaker 2>not part of the sort of galleries, libraries, museums, industry,

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<v Speaker 2>they are cultural communities who want to work with and

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<v Speaker 2>actually use some of these objects rather than conserve them. Um, so,

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<v Speaker 2>so I think that's a particularly important point to be

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<v Speaker 2>sort of adjudicated more in the public eye. So what

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<v Speaker 2>happens to those artifacts that cannot be returned to the

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<v Speaker 2>countries of origin?

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<v Speaker 2>Uh, that's a great question. I mean, I think no

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<v Speaker 2>matter what the goal is that these objects become the

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<v Speaker 2>study of more than one sort of area. So often

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<v Speaker 2>art museums are the people who are the custodians of

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<v Speaker 2>these objects, and so there are sort of art historians, archaeologists, um,

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<v Speaker 2>conservators who spend time with the objects. I think it's

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<v Speaker 2>important to just broaden the scope of who is invited.

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<v Speaker 2>To both learn from, with and about these objects, creating

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<v Speaker 2>perhaps other venues. Um, like I said, I think in

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<v Speaker 2>the realm of education, not just university education, but primary,

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<v Speaker 2>secondary education, I think there need to be ways for

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<v Speaker 2>people to, again, have sort of access either to high

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<v Speaker 2>resolution digital imagery, um, other types of primary documentation that

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<v Speaker 2>will help a, a larger group.

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<v Speaker 2>People look, learn and ask questions and I do think

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<v Speaker 2>that younger students, um, even at the primary level can

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<v Speaker 2>be a part of that of finding out, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>what is it that they find interesting, what are the

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<v Speaker 2>questions that they want to have answered. Yeah, I think

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<v Speaker 2>that that's a very interesting way of looking at it.

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<v Speaker 2>Sometimes we need to remind ourselves of that childlike curiosity

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<v Speaker 2>to I suppose facilitate um historical answers sometimes. Um, so

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<v Speaker 2>you alluded to how

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<v Speaker 2>Some museums may have space constraints among other issues uh

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<v Speaker 2>that they have to consider I suppose before any of

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<v Speaker 2>these return transactions if you will take place. So what

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<v Speaker 2>are some of these other considerations that museums have to

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<v Speaker 2>make or take when they receive such artifacts um apart

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<v Speaker 2>from space I suppose.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh, climate control is a big one. So again, this

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<v Speaker 2>is where I feel like it's actually not wholly the

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<v Speaker 2>responsibility of, say, the museums themselves. It's kind of the

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<v Speaker 2>responsibility of um larger, you know, governmental agencies to fund

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<v Speaker 2>these wonderful arts institutions, um, you know, arts institutions and

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<v Speaker 2>the small staff that they have, um, always do the

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<v Speaker 2>best they can with very limited resources, but, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>having specifically in, in a region like, you know, around Singapore.

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<v Speaker 2>Within Southeast Asia, climate control, specifically humidity control is something

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<v Speaker 2>that is is a real concern and that will only

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<v Speaker 2>be rectified with some pretty major investment into the infrastructure

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<v Speaker 2>for the conservation of of these types of objects. Uh,

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<v Speaker 2>we're just curious now, how do museums ensure the authenticity

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<v Speaker 2>of the returned objects or or any artifacts in general?

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<v Speaker 2>This is great, um, this, because the question is, is

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<v Speaker 2>one that can go on forever. It's there, there are

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<v Speaker 2>ways of verifying how the object first came into the institution.

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<v Speaker 2>Usually that is documented in some way, um, but then

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<v Speaker 2>the question is, you know, how much more research can

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<v Speaker 2>you do to, to really find where it was before that,

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<v Speaker 2>essentially the, the control chain.

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<v Speaker 2>Um, and to be honest, it's not as simple as

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<v Speaker 2>it sounds, and I think that it actually needs to

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<v Speaker 2>be sort of the, the ongoing work, not just of

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<v Speaker 2>our generation, the next generation, but kind of subsequent generations

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<v Speaker 2>as well. Um, so I guess this is, this is

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<v Speaker 2>a question is, are we doing this because it is

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<v Speaker 2>sort of scientific evidence that this is exactly the piece

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<v Speaker 2>that came from exactly this temple, um, and that there,

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<v Speaker 2>because we can link all of those things together, then

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<v Speaker 2>a

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, it should be returned, or is it a

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<v Speaker 2>bigger question that, because we have a sort of moral

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<v Speaker 2>certainty to understand that, you know, even if this came

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<v Speaker 2>from a slightly different temple in a in a neighboring region,

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<v Speaker 2>there is still sort of an argument for why it

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<v Speaker 2>would be more at home, you know, in, um, a collection, uh,

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<v Speaker 2>let's say in Northern Thailand than in the Netherlands. I think,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, this is also part of the work is, um,

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<v Speaker 2>slowly adjusting the policy to meet reality.

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<v Speaker 2>Talk to us about the care and maintenance of these artifacts. Um,

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<v Speaker 2>I had the pleasure and privilege of having my internship,

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<v Speaker 2>which had nothing to do with what I was studying

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<v Speaker 2>at the time, uh, at the Heritage Conservation Center here

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<v Speaker 2>in Singapore, Little did you know there was a facility

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<v Speaker 2>here in Singapore. It's all the way in Jurong, so

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<v Speaker 2>I know you know that you had an internship there. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was a really fun one because that's where

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<v Speaker 2>you get to meet the real nerd.

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<v Speaker 2>Of conservation, like it's really fascinating. Again, nothing to do

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<v Speaker 2>with my line of work eventually, but it was still

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<v Speaker 2>an experience. So talk to us about those specific skills

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<v Speaker 2>that conservators need to have, Dr. Karen. Is the industry

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<v Speaker 2>for this a thriving one? Are we, are you encouraged by,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, the number of conservation efforts and conservatives and

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<v Speaker 2>the skills that they need to have?

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<v Speaker 2>Uh, sure. Well, I'll answer that in a few ways. So,

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<v Speaker 2>so one is that that the skills are a bit

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<v Speaker 2>all over the place, the way museum work is. So,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, you have to have very specific training in

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<v Speaker 2>conservation chemistry, in the handling of objects, um, but then

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<v Speaker 2>also really a very lively curiosity, um, from a broad

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<v Speaker 2>humanities perspective.

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<v Speaker 2>You have to have um a visual acuity to understand

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<v Speaker 2>what you're looking at, not necessarily based on the documentation

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<v Speaker 2>that you have in front of you, but sort of

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<v Speaker 2>this accumulated knowledge of having looked at many, many things. Um,

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<v Speaker 2>so it's a type of connoisseurship that develops just by

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<v Speaker 2>spending time with objects, but as I said, it also

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<v Speaker 2>involves having the the backing um through.

0:12:26.581 --> 0:12:30.221
<v Speaker 2>Understanding history, through understanding art history, and this is something

0:12:30.221 --> 0:12:33.052
<v Speaker 2>that at NTU we're very excited to introduce to our

0:12:33.052 --> 0:12:35.942
<v Speaker 2>students at the undergraduate level as well as at the

0:12:35.942 --> 0:12:38.631
<v Speaker 2>master's level. I mean, NTU has had a very successful

0:12:38.631 --> 0:12:42.540
<v Speaker 2>master's program in museum studies and curatorial practices that often

0:12:42.541 --> 0:12:46.981
<v Speaker 2>also places students in internships at HCC um.

0:12:47.539 --> 0:12:49.700
<v Speaker 2>Where, where they see that it's, it's really not that

0:12:49.700 --> 0:12:54.179
<v Speaker 2>you can separate the scientific aspect of conservation from the

0:12:54.179 --> 0:12:57.619
<v Speaker 2>historical or cultural aspect. Um, they also very much take

0:12:57.619 --> 0:13:00.859
<v Speaker 2>into account intangible cultural heritage and how the sort of

0:13:00.859 --> 0:13:04.079
<v Speaker 2>lived expression of culture is, you know, even though

0:13:04.159 --> 0:13:07.030
<v Speaker 2>Happening in the 21st century is not separate from items

0:13:07.030 --> 0:13:11.030
<v Speaker 2>that come from centuries before that. Yeah, I guess that

0:13:11.030 --> 0:13:14.469
<v Speaker 2>will be the mission for me to conserve my grandma's

0:13:14.469 --> 0:13:19.020
<v Speaker 2>very old Peranakan Kabaya that you can't find anymore. Uh,

0:13:19.150 --> 0:13:20.940
<v Speaker 2>maybe I'll donate that to the HCC one day.

0:13:21.729 --> 0:13:25.130
<v Speaker 2>Doctor Karen, this has been absolutely fun. We've been meaning

0:13:25.130 --> 0:13:26.929
<v Speaker 2>to talk about this topic for quite some time now,

0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:28.650
<v Speaker 2>and we were so glad that we were able to

0:13:28.650 --> 0:13:31.049
<v Speaker 2>have this conversation with you. So thank you so much

0:13:31.049 --> 0:13:34.359
<v Speaker 2>for walking us through the exact steps. It's not a

0:13:34.359 --> 0:13:37.729
<v Speaker 2>very black and white uh process at all as as

0:13:37.729 --> 0:13:40.640
<v Speaker 2>we've learned today. So thanks very much for enlightening us today.

0:13:41.500 --> 0:13:43.179
<v Speaker 2>Sure, well, I mean, as we all say, like it's,

0:13:43.260 --> 0:13:45.419
<v Speaker 2>it's really just the beginning of a new chapter, the

0:13:45.419 --> 0:13:48.460
<v Speaker 2>fact that museums are actually addressing this issue now and,

0:13:48.500 --> 0:13:52.130
<v Speaker 2>and physically returning objects to other places. It's a beginning,

0:13:52.159 --> 0:13:54.979
<v Speaker 2>but it's going to be ongoing for for centuries. So

0:13:54.979 --> 0:13:57.780
<v Speaker 2>to answer your other question earlier, there is a lot

0:13:57.780 --> 0:13:59.950
<v Speaker 2>of work to be done. Absolutely and

0:13:59.994 --> 0:14:02.385
<v Speaker 2>You know what, what you've told us today has been

0:14:02.385 --> 0:14:05.194
<v Speaker 2>at least encouraging for the most part. Thanks very much

0:14:05.195 --> 0:14:08.223
<v Speaker 2>once again, Dr. Karen. Great, thanks for having me. The

0:14:08.224 --> 0:14:11.244
<v Speaker 2>pleasure is ours. That's Dr. Karen Oon. She's director for

0:14:11.244 --> 0:14:14.625
<v Speaker 2>the NTU Center for Contemporary Art Singapore. She's also senior

0:14:14.625 --> 0:14:17.505
<v Speaker 2>lecturer and head of department for art history at NTU

0:14:17.505 --> 0:14:18.544
<v Speaker 2>School of Humanities.