Speaker 1: Now, CNA 938 rewind.
Speaker 2: Returning stolen or lost items back to their rightful owners
Speaker 2: is naturally the right thing to do, right?
Speaker 2: But what happens if the receivers, they do not have
Speaker 2: the capacity to accept the objects? Oh wow. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: that's the issue, right? Right now that Cambodia's National Museum
Speaker 2: is facing as the country's stolen statues are coming home
Speaker 2: to an overflowing museum. Uh, so foreign institutions and collectors
Speaker 2: are returning artifacts with deep spiritual meaning for Cambodians, but
Speaker 2: where and how to displace them remain open questions.
Speaker 2: In the case of Bali, on the other hand, safety
Speaker 2: and security are a concern when considering where these returned
Speaker 2: artifacts should go, and these are really fragile items. I've
Speaker 2: been to museums in Kathmandu in Nepal, and these are really,
Speaker 2: really ancient stuff and it's made with materials that were
Speaker 2: not the most sophisticated at the time, so there's decay
Speaker 2: to consider as well. Uh, several academics do feel that
Speaker 2: really
Speaker 2: Religious objects should be returned to the people of Bali.
Speaker 2: Some Indonesian officials say they may be safer in Jakarta
Speaker 2: given Bali's theft situation. So returning lost artifacts to the
Speaker 2: countries of origin is not a simple task. So we
Speaker 2: want to find out more about how complicated this is
Speaker 2: now with Dr. Karen Oon. She's director for the NTU
Speaker 2: Center for Contemporary Art in Singapore. She is also senior
Speaker 2: lecturer and head of department for art.
Speaker 2: Art history at NTU's School of Humanities. Doctor Karen, good
Speaker 2: to have you on the show. Really excited to talk
Speaker 2: about this one because uh I'm a big museum goer
Speaker 2: myself and this is quite uh a complicated matter, something
Speaker 2: that I didn't expect to be so complex. So let's
Speaker 2: get right into it. For a start, help us understand beyond,
Speaker 2: I suppose the moral rationale, moral reasoning, why actually is
Speaker 2: it important to return stolen
Speaker 2: Or lost artifacts or even art to their rightful owners. Well,
Speaker 2: thank you for spending some time thinking about this very
Speaker 2: urgent issue. Um, I like to think that part of
Speaker 2: why it's so important is that it's not just about
Speaker 2: uh uh context where there is someone who has been wronged.
Speaker 2: Needs to be made whole by the return of these artifacts,
Speaker 2: but also understanding the larger role that cultural patrimony has
Speaker 2: for all of us, that it's not just about two parties,
Speaker 2: it's about sort of how we as a people in
Speaker 2: the 21st century want to think about uh cultural patrimony.
Speaker 2: Um, this is, this is one of the sort of
Speaker 2: bigger issues. I think there's also a very practical reason
Speaker 2: to think about um how, how the return of um stolen,
Speaker 2: looted or otherwise sort of ill-gotten objects, um, has, has
Speaker 2: a role to play. It, it's also the idea that
Speaker 2: things have been collected um for the sake of being collected.
Speaker 2: And then when we, when we think about objects, when
Speaker 2: we think about their cultural significance that it's not just
Speaker 2: about keeping them locked away where they can be sort
Speaker 2: of safely studied, um, it's really about thinking about how
Speaker 2: can we get this material into the public eye.
Speaker 2: Um, so for, for better or for worse, I think
Speaker 2: that the, the controversies right now around the sort of
Speaker 2: literal return of objects are part of a bigger conversation
Speaker 2: about the importance of this material. Yeah, you brought up
Speaker 2: a very good point there about how to sort of
Speaker 2: reintroduce these items back into the public domain and that's
Speaker 2: something that um
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say it doesn't sit well with me, but
Speaker 2: I'm trying to understand better because I'm a big museum
Speaker 2: goer and when I go to the Louvre and you
Speaker 2: go to the Met in New York and you get
Speaker 2: to see these really ancient artifacts collected over the years,
Speaker 2: whether through ill-gotten gains or not. Um, and one can
Speaker 2: argue that viewing these artifacts are exactly what visitors go
Speaker 2: there for, right? To be educated, to be informed, to
Speaker 2: see these things in real life and these are cities
Speaker 2: that
Speaker 2: Perhaps would be more accessible to people than others. So
Speaker 2: if such artifacts are then returned, what happens to the
Speaker 2: educational value of having them at such major museums?
Speaker 2: Great question. Uh, I think, you know, one thing to
Speaker 2: point out, um, is that museum collections are gigantic. The
Speaker 2: project of collecting, especially encyclopedic collections for universal museums, um,
Speaker 2: has created the situation where at any given time, a
Speaker 2: major museum like the Louvre might have, I don't know,
Speaker 2: less than 10% of its collection on view. So,
Speaker 2: Repatriation of objects that are specifically requested by claimants, the
Speaker 2: repatriation of objects that have very specific cultural significance does
Speaker 2: not mean that all of a sudden, the museum storage
Speaker 2: would be bare. Um, the other side of that is,
Speaker 2: as I said, I don't think it's just about museums.
Speaker 2: I think it's about education and as we all know,
Speaker 2: we are in a very digital age. There are ways
Speaker 2: to think about these objects, not just
Speaker 2: In terms of their firsthand study or access by visiting museums,
Speaker 2: but also how can they become part of a larger
Speaker 2: conversation around teaching history in a different way. Dr. Corin,
Speaker 2: we talked earlier about how countries have had to reject
Speaker 2: stolen artifacts in some cases. What are the scenarios in
Speaker 2: which the process isn't a smooth one?
Speaker 2: Hm, I mean, there, there are so many examples. I mean,
Speaker 2: if you start to look into these, these cases, you
Speaker 2: can find that there are, you know, sort of very
Speaker 2: tricky situations because, you know, the, the larger agreements that
Speaker 2: um that are the sort of guiding principles for the
Speaker 2: legal repatriation um of of these materials are universal in scope, right?
Speaker 2: So we have the Hague Convention from 1954, uh, we
Speaker 2: have um much more sort of recent legislation within the
Speaker 2: 1990s from Unihua.
Speaker 2: Uh, but those are sort of, again, these are aspirational,
Speaker 2: these are general, you have to then go down to
Speaker 2: the sort of local or in some cases, national, um, uh, laws. Uh,
Speaker 2: and so maybe one thing to point out is also
Speaker 2: within any given sort of modern day sovereign nation, um,
Speaker 2: there are different cultural communities or cultural constituencies. So you
Speaker 2: might have indigenous communities who in theory are on the
Speaker 2: territory of this sovereign nation state, and yet,
Speaker 2: They are trying to appeal, perhaps not through the um
Speaker 2: governing laws relating to cultural patrimony, but to a slightly
Speaker 2: different story, the sort of ongoing um settler colonialism that
Speaker 2: is part of their reality that has created a, say,
Speaker 2: national museum that holds artifacts or other objects that are
Speaker 2: specific to their communities. And so I think that's an
Speaker 2: example of something that is often quite hard to legislate.
Speaker 2: Because you have um possibly different communities also who are
Speaker 2: not part of the sort of galleries, libraries, museums, industry,
Speaker 2: they are cultural communities who want to work with and
Speaker 2: actually use some of these objects rather than conserve them. Um, so,
Speaker 2: so I think that's a particularly important point to be
Speaker 2: sort of adjudicated more in the public eye. So what
Speaker 2: happens to those artifacts that cannot be returned to the
Speaker 2: countries of origin?
Speaker 2: Uh, that's a great question. I mean, I think no
Speaker 2: matter what the goal is that these objects become the
Speaker 2: study of more than one sort of area. So often
Speaker 2: art museums are the people who are the custodians of
Speaker 2: these objects, and so there are sort of art historians, archaeologists, um,
Speaker 2: conservators who spend time with the objects. I think it's
Speaker 2: important to just broaden the scope of who is invited.
Speaker 2: To both learn from, with and about these objects, creating
Speaker 2: perhaps other venues. Um, like I said, I think in
Speaker 2: the realm of education, not just university education, but primary,
Speaker 2: secondary education, I think there need to be ways for
Speaker 2: people to, again, have sort of access either to high
Speaker 2: resolution digital imagery, um, other types of primary documentation that
Speaker 2: will help a, a larger group.
Speaker 2: People look, learn and ask questions and I do think
Speaker 2: that younger students, um, even at the primary level can
Speaker 2: be a part of that of finding out, you know,
Speaker 2: what is it that they find interesting, what are the
Speaker 2: questions that they want to have answered. Yeah, I think
Speaker 2: that that's a very interesting way of looking at it.
Speaker 2: Sometimes we need to remind ourselves of that childlike curiosity
Speaker 2: to I suppose facilitate um historical answers sometimes. Um, so
Speaker 2: you alluded to how
Speaker 2: Some museums may have space constraints among other issues uh
Speaker 2: that they have to consider I suppose before any of
Speaker 2: these return transactions if you will take place. So what
Speaker 2: are some of these other considerations that museums have to
Speaker 2: make or take when they receive such artifacts um apart
Speaker 2: from space I suppose.
Speaker 2: Uh, climate control is a big one. So again, this
Speaker 2: is where I feel like it's actually not wholly the
Speaker 2: responsibility of, say, the museums themselves. It's kind of the
Speaker 2: responsibility of um larger, you know, governmental agencies to fund
Speaker 2: these wonderful arts institutions, um, you know, arts institutions and
Speaker 2: the small staff that they have, um, always do the
Speaker 2: best they can with very limited resources, but, you know,
Speaker 2: having specifically in, in a region like, you know, around Singapore.
Speaker 2: Within Southeast Asia, climate control, specifically humidity control is something
Speaker 2: that is is a real concern and that will only
Speaker 2: be rectified with some pretty major investment into the infrastructure
Speaker 2: for the conservation of of these types of objects. Uh,
Speaker 2: we're just curious now, how do museums ensure the authenticity
Speaker 2: of the returned objects or or any artifacts in general?
Speaker 2: This is great, um, this, because the question is, is
Speaker 2: one that can go on forever. It's there, there are
Speaker 2: ways of verifying how the object first came into the institution.
Speaker 2: Usually that is documented in some way, um, but then
Speaker 2: the question is, you know, how much more research can
Speaker 2: you do to, to really find where it was before that,
Speaker 2: essentially the, the control chain.
Speaker 2: Um, and to be honest, it's not as simple as
Speaker 2: it sounds, and I think that it actually needs to
Speaker 2: be sort of the, the ongoing work, not just of
Speaker 2: our generation, the next generation, but kind of subsequent generations
Speaker 2: as well. Um, so I guess this is, this is
Speaker 2: a question is, are we doing this because it is
Speaker 2: sort of scientific evidence that this is exactly the piece
Speaker 2: that came from exactly this temple, um, and that there,
Speaker 2: because we can link all of those things together, then
Speaker 2: a
Speaker 2: Of course, it should be returned, or is it a
Speaker 2: bigger question that, because we have a sort of moral
Speaker 2: certainty to understand that, you know, even if this came
Speaker 2: from a slightly different temple in a in a neighboring region,
Speaker 2: there is still sort of an argument for why it
Speaker 2: would be more at home, you know, in, um, a collection, uh,
Speaker 2: let's say in Northern Thailand than in the Netherlands. I think,
Speaker 2: you know, this is also part of the work is, um,
Speaker 2: slowly adjusting the policy to meet reality.
Speaker 2: Talk to us about the care and maintenance of these artifacts. Um,
Speaker 2: I had the pleasure and privilege of having my internship,
Speaker 2: which had nothing to do with what I was studying
Speaker 2: at the time, uh, at the Heritage Conservation Center here
Speaker 2: in Singapore, Little did you know there was a facility
Speaker 2: here in Singapore. It's all the way in Jurong, so
Speaker 2: I know you know that you had an internship there. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it was a really fun one because that's where
Speaker 2: you get to meet the real nerd.
Speaker 2: Of conservation, like it's really fascinating. Again, nothing to do
Speaker 2: with my line of work eventually, but it was still
Speaker 2: an experience. So talk to us about those specific skills
Speaker 2: that conservators need to have, Dr. Karen. Is the industry
Speaker 2: for this a thriving one? Are we, are you encouraged by,
Speaker 2: you know, the number of conservation efforts and conservatives and
Speaker 2: the skills that they need to have?
Speaker 2: Uh, sure. Well, I'll answer that in a few ways. So,
Speaker 2: so one is that that the skills are a bit
Speaker 2: all over the place, the way museum work is. So,
Speaker 2: you know, you have to have very specific training in
Speaker 2: conservation chemistry, in the handling of objects, um, but then
Speaker 2: also really a very lively curiosity, um, from a broad
Speaker 2: humanities perspective.
Speaker 2: You have to have um a visual acuity to understand
Speaker 2: what you're looking at, not necessarily based on the documentation
Speaker 2: that you have in front of you, but sort of
Speaker 2: this accumulated knowledge of having looked at many, many things. Um,
Speaker 2: so it's a type of connoisseurship that develops just by
Speaker 2: spending time with objects, but as I said, it also
Speaker 2: involves having the the backing um through.
Speaker 2: Understanding history, through understanding art history, and this is something
Speaker 2: that at NTU we're very excited to introduce to our
Speaker 2: students at the undergraduate level as well as at the
Speaker 2: master's level. I mean, NTU has had a very successful
Speaker 2: master's program in museum studies and curatorial practices that often
Speaker 2: also places students in internships at HCC um.
Speaker 2: Where, where they see that it's, it's really not that
Speaker 2: you can separate the scientific aspect of conservation from the
Speaker 2: historical or cultural aspect. Um, they also very much take
Speaker 2: into account intangible cultural heritage and how the sort of
Speaker 2: lived expression of culture is, you know, even though
Speaker 2: Happening in the 21st century is not separate from items
Speaker 2: that come from centuries before that. Yeah, I guess that
Speaker 2: will be the mission for me to conserve my grandma's
Speaker 2: very old Peranakan Kabaya that you can't find anymore. Uh,
Speaker 2: maybe I'll donate that to the HCC one day.
Speaker 2: Doctor Karen, this has been absolutely fun. We've been meaning
Speaker 2: to talk about this topic for quite some time now,
Speaker 2: and we were so glad that we were able to
Speaker 2: have this conversation with you. So thank you so much
Speaker 2: for walking us through the exact steps. It's not a
Speaker 2: very black and white uh process at all as as
Speaker 2: we've learned today. So thanks very much for enlightening us today.
Speaker 2: Sure, well, I mean, as we all say, like it's,
Speaker 2: it's really just the beginning of a new chapter, the
Speaker 2: fact that museums are actually addressing this issue now and,
Speaker 2: and physically returning objects to other places. It's a beginning,
Speaker 2: but it's going to be ongoing for for centuries. So
Speaker 2: to answer your other question earlier, there is a lot
Speaker 2: of work to be done. Absolutely and
Speaker 2: You know what, what you've told us today has been
Speaker 2: at least encouraging for the most part. Thanks very much
Speaker 2: once again, Dr. Karen. Great, thanks for having me. The
Speaker 2: pleasure is ours. That's Dr. Karen Oon. She's director for
Speaker 2: the NTU Center for Contemporary Art Singapore. She's also senior
Speaker 2: lecturer and head of department for art history at NTU
Speaker 2: School of Humanities.