1 00:00:00,270 --> 00:00:02,599 Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast 2 00:00:04,420 --> 00:00:07,590 Speaker 1: is the recession really coming? Yes or no. I think so. 3 00:00:07,599 --> 00:00:11,329 Speaker 1: Three words, when you think of a looming recession, buy 4 00:00:11,340 --> 00:00:15,489 Speaker 1: more stocks, describe recession proof stocks in a single sentence. 5 00:00:15,659 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: There are stable business who can still perform during a 6 00:00:18,209 --> 00:00:21,549 Speaker 1: recession and their share price is likely to lose less 7 00:00:21,559 --> 00:00:22,610 Speaker 1: if the market is crashing 8 00:00:22,684 --> 00:00:28,125 Speaker 1: top three types of stocks to invest in during a downturn, supermarkets, 9 00:00:28,135 --> 00:00:33,205 Speaker 1: health care, education, investing mistakes to avoid in a recession, 10 00:00:33,215 --> 00:00:36,974 Speaker 1: move your money into safe building assets, principle guaranteed. But 11 00:00:36,985 --> 00:00:40,275 Speaker 1: then miss the run when the market start to be 12 00:00:40,284 --> 00:00:40,875 Speaker 1: bullish again, 13 00:00:43,439 --> 00:00:47,700 Speaker 1: the big R word it's been uttered so many times 14 00:00:47,709 --> 00:00:52,470 Speaker 1: this year, striking fear even in the most seasoned economist. 15 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 1: But while a recession hasn't quite yet arrived, perhaps it's 16 00:00:57,009 --> 00:01:00,849 Speaker 1: not too late to look at adding some resilience instead 17 00:01:00,860 --> 00:01:04,489 Speaker 1: to your portfolio. Hi, I'm Andrea Heng. And this is 18 00:01:04,500 --> 00:01:06,430 Speaker 1: the Money Talks podcast where we talk about 19 00:01:06,510 --> 00:01:09,980 Speaker 1: your money and there are many wonderful things you can 20 00:01:09,989 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: do with it. So previously, we asked ourselves, is it 21 00:01:13,010 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 1: still worth putting your money in Singapore's treasury bills and 22 00:01:16,410 --> 00:01:19,169 Speaker 1: savings bonds this year? Well, if you want to know 23 00:01:19,180 --> 00:01:22,089 Speaker 1: the answer. Look out for that episode on Spotify or 24 00:01:22,099 --> 00:01:25,580 Speaker 1: Google podcast. Just search money talks and you'll be on 25 00:01:25,589 --> 00:01:29,500 Speaker 1: the right track. But back to the dreaded R word recession, 26 00:01:29,940 --> 00:01:31,989 Speaker 1: it was a buzzword at the start of the year 27 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,629 Speaker 1: when the world was dealing with a number of unfortunate events, 28 00:01:35,639 --> 00:01:41,139 Speaker 1: staggering inflation, sky high interest rates and geopolitical conflict, all 29 00:01:41,150 --> 00:01:46,160 Speaker 1: of which are sadly ongoing even today. So we're asking 30 00:01:46,389 --> 00:01:49,620 Speaker 1: how can we protect ourselves from a recession if it 31 00:01:49,629 --> 00:01:51,510 Speaker 1: does arrive other changes, we 32 00:01:51,595 --> 00:01:53,514 Speaker 1: we need to make to our stock portfolio so that 33 00:01:53,525 --> 00:01:56,684 Speaker 1: the sting will be less painful here to chart a 34 00:01:56,694 --> 00:02:00,665 Speaker 1: path for us. Is Alvin Chow CEO and founder of 35 00:02:00,675 --> 00:02:03,525 Speaker 1: Doctor Wealth. Thanks for joining us on money talks. Alvin, 36 00:02:03,535 --> 00:02:07,105 Speaker 1: thanks Andrea, thanks for having me. Ok. So in Singapore, 37 00:02:07,455 --> 00:02:11,625 Speaker 1: we understand that a technical recession is two consecutive quarters 38 00:02:11,633 --> 00:02:13,205 Speaker 1: of GDP decline. 39 00:02:13,679 --> 00:02:17,168 Speaker 1: But outside this definition, what are the conditions of a 40 00:02:17,179 --> 00:02:20,809 Speaker 1: recession we need to take notice of as an investor, 41 00:02:20,910 --> 00:02:23,369 Speaker 1: what are the warning signs we should be looking out for? 42 00:02:23,479 --> 00:02:26,449 Speaker 1: So as you already pointed out, the Singapore economy did 43 00:02:26,460 --> 00:02:29,449 Speaker 1: avoided a technical recession because the last quarter, the second 44 00:02:29,460 --> 00:02:32,289 Speaker 1: quarter was actually a positive GDP growth. And I would 45 00:02:32,300 --> 00:02:35,669 Speaker 1: say that looking at a bigger economy, the US economy 46 00:02:35,679 --> 00:02:37,399 Speaker 1: is definitely the one that we need to watch out 47 00:02:37,410 --> 00:02:39,519 Speaker 1: for because it affects the rest of the world, right? 48 00:02:39,529 --> 00:02:40,910 Speaker 1: Being the biggest economy in the world. 49 00:02:41,220 --> 00:02:44,649 Speaker 1: And for the US side, actually, the economy seems a 50 00:02:44,660 --> 00:02:49,149 Speaker 1: lot stronger than predicted. They have two consecutive quarters of 51 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,229 Speaker 1: positive GDP growth this year so far. 52 00:02:51,559 --> 00:02:55,860 Speaker 1: And it seems like the US economy is absorbing the 53 00:02:55,869 --> 00:02:58,020 Speaker 1: high interest rate rather well, right? To a lot of 54 00:02:58,029 --> 00:03:00,500 Speaker 1: people surprise. But one of the key signs that I 55 00:03:00,508 --> 00:03:02,199 Speaker 1: look out for is actually this thing called the U 56 00:03:02,399 --> 00:03:06,399 Speaker 1: curve inversion. So this curve inversion is basically taking the 57 00:03:06,410 --> 00:03:09,610 Speaker 1: 10 year bond you minus away the two year bond 58 00:03:09,619 --> 00:03:12,259 Speaker 1: you OK? And what does that do? So by right, 59 00:03:12,270 --> 00:03:14,220 Speaker 1: a longer 10 year bond should give you a high 60 00:03:14,229 --> 00:03:16,198 Speaker 1: interest rate just like if you buy a 10 year bond, 61 00:03:16,210 --> 00:03:17,990 Speaker 1: you expect a high interest rate and a two year bond, right? 62 00:03:18,330 --> 00:03:19,679 Speaker 1: So which means a 10 year 63 00:03:19,815 --> 00:03:21,195 Speaker 1: and it's a two year Y, it should be a 64 00:03:21,205 --> 00:03:24,175 Speaker 1: positive number. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. OK. 65 00:03:24,184 --> 00:03:27,074 Speaker 1: So when the U curve inverts, that means that the 66 00:03:27,085 --> 00:03:29,404 Speaker 1: 10 year Y is actually lower than the two year Y, 67 00:03:30,294 --> 00:03:32,734 Speaker 1: that is where you get a negative number. And that's 68 00:03:32,744 --> 00:03:36,625 Speaker 1: what the economists term as a U curve inversion. OK. 69 00:03:36,634 --> 00:03:40,945 Speaker 1: And historically, this indicator, whenever the U curve inverts recession 70 00:03:40,955 --> 00:03:43,524 Speaker 1: is around the corner. Oh and where are we at? 71 00:03:43,535 --> 00:03:46,274 Speaker 1: If you're looking at the U curve now, it has 72 00:03:46,285 --> 00:03:47,985 Speaker 1: been inverted for more than a year. 73 00:03:48,279 --> 00:03:50,699 Speaker 1: OK. So one thing is that it's not immediate, it 74 00:03:50,710 --> 00:03:52,690 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that all the moment that this U curve 75 00:03:52,699 --> 00:03:56,169 Speaker 1: inverts the recession is going to happen tomorrow. Ok. It doesn't, 76 00:03:56,179 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: there is a delay, it can be one year, two years. 77 00:03:58,369 --> 00:04:00,729 Speaker 1: So we are not exactly out of the woods yet, 78 00:04:00,740 --> 00:04:03,929 Speaker 1: even though the economy looks ok now, but we wouldn't 79 00:04:03,940 --> 00:04:06,229 Speaker 1: know for the second half of the year and probably 80 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,130 Speaker 1: first of the next year, we may see a recession. 81 00:04:09,139 --> 00:04:11,580 Speaker 1: So it's still in the cuts. So it may not 82 00:04:11,589 --> 00:04:13,270 Speaker 1: signal a recession 83 00:04:13,363 --> 00:04:18,393 Speaker 1: immediately, but it may also not signal a recovery immediately. Yes. Ok. 84 00:04:18,433 --> 00:04:20,803 Speaker 1: And there can be four signal as well. It is 85 00:04:20,812 --> 00:04:23,893 Speaker 1: not 100%. But I would say that based on the 86 00:04:23,903 --> 00:04:26,983 Speaker 1: historical track record of this U curve inversion, it's definitely 87 00:04:26,993 --> 00:04:29,041 Speaker 1: more than 50% accurate. Ok. So there is still a 88 00:04:29,053 --> 00:04:32,653 Speaker 1: higher chance that recession may happen. Ok. May that's the 89 00:04:32,662 --> 00:04:38,291 Speaker 1: key operative word. So while there may not be a recession, yet, 90 00:04:38,446 --> 00:04:41,265 Speaker 1: markets have deteriorated around the world, I mean, we have 91 00:04:41,276 --> 00:04:44,496 Speaker 1: seen it, it's a bloodbath in some cases and I 92 00:04:44,505 --> 00:04:47,816 Speaker 1: guess that tends to mean cheaper stocks or is that 93 00:04:47,825 --> 00:04:50,604 Speaker 1: too simplistic a a way to look at it. There 94 00:04:50,615 --> 00:04:54,025 Speaker 1: are a lot more complication if we look into the details. 95 00:04:54,145 --> 00:04:58,096 Speaker 1: So for example, definitely 2022 was a bad year for 96 00:04:58,105 --> 00:05:01,335 Speaker 1: stocks all around the world. Even in the US, it crashed, 97 00:05:01,346 --> 00:05:03,045 Speaker 1: especially for tech, 98 00:05:03,528 --> 00:05:06,498 Speaker 1: especially for tech. Those that were sensitive to interest rates 99 00:05:06,509 --> 00:05:09,669 Speaker 1: were all getting hammered. And this year is a little 100 00:05:09,678 --> 00:05:12,789 Speaker 1: bit different because the US stocks have been doing pretty well. 101 00:05:12,799 --> 00:05:16,928 Speaker 1: Even the recent correction S and P 500 index is 102 00:05:16,938 --> 00:05:20,079 Speaker 1: still up about 16% year to date. That's impressive. Yeah, 103 00:05:20,109 --> 00:05:23,368 Speaker 1: and NASDAQ is probably up more than 20% year to date. So, 104 00:05:23,378 --> 00:05:26,218 Speaker 1: I guess a lot of people didn't expect that to happen, 105 00:05:26,368 --> 00:05:28,519 Speaker 1: but we just back off a very high interest rate. 106 00:05:28,611 --> 00:05:30,601 Speaker 1: It doesn't seem like in the near future, the Federal 107 00:05:30,611 --> 00:05:32,992 Speaker 1: Reserve is going to cut interest rate any time soon, right? 108 00:05:33,002 --> 00:05:37,302 Speaker 1: So it is surprising that the market has went up. Ok. 109 00:05:37,312 --> 00:05:39,902 Speaker 1: And I think this is what most people find it 110 00:05:39,911 --> 00:05:43,661 Speaker 1: difficult to understand. OK. If let's say, yeah, exactly. Right. 111 00:05:43,671 --> 00:05:46,261 Speaker 1: So if the economic condition doesn't look that good, why 112 00:05:46,272 --> 00:05:49,381 Speaker 1: is the stock market going up? So historically, again, there 113 00:05:49,391 --> 00:05:53,011 Speaker 1: isn't much correlation between the stock market and the economy, right? 114 00:05:53,022 --> 00:05:53,561 Speaker 1: It sounds like 115 00:05:53,695 --> 00:05:58,454 Speaker 1: a bit weird, right? But the correlation is almost zero really? OK. 116 00:05:58,464 --> 00:06:01,363 Speaker 1: Explain this to me. And the reason is because the 117 00:06:01,375 --> 00:06:05,475 Speaker 1: stock market is usually a forward looking system kind of 118 00:06:05,484 --> 00:06:09,505 Speaker 1: like a future. Yeah, you will price in future expectation earlier. OK. 119 00:06:09,515 --> 00:06:12,445 Speaker 1: So if you expect a recession is coming, so people 120 00:06:12,454 --> 00:06:16,635 Speaker 1: will sell stocks now there's this time lag, right? And 121 00:06:16,644 --> 00:06:18,354 Speaker 1: the stock market is the indicator 122 00:06:19,079 --> 00:06:21,190 Speaker 1: and if we look at the economic indicators right, it's 123 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,890 Speaker 1: usually lagging and delayed. For example, in August, we only 124 00:06:24,899 --> 00:06:27,299 Speaker 1: get the July numbers. Yes, somebody need to compile the 125 00:06:27,309 --> 00:06:30,010 Speaker 1: report and then the boss need to because we haven't 126 00:06:30,019 --> 00:06:33,609 Speaker 1: implemented A I into our compilation system. And the moment 127 00:06:33,619 --> 00:06:36,130 Speaker 1: they released it, there's already water under the rich it 128 00:06:36,140 --> 00:06:39,049 Speaker 1: past month. Ok. But the stock market has already adjusted 129 00:06:39,059 --> 00:06:41,570 Speaker 1: by then, right? So that is why there isn't a 130 00:06:41,579 --> 00:06:43,230 Speaker 1: very strong correlation. It's not that 131 00:06:43,295 --> 00:06:45,626 Speaker 1: they have totally no relation there is. It's just that 132 00:06:45,635 --> 00:06:48,505 Speaker 1: the stock market is front running all this information, got it. 133 00:06:48,515 --> 00:06:52,335 Speaker 1: So it's anticipatory rather than reactive, you're saying? So we 134 00:06:52,346 --> 00:06:54,515 Speaker 1: are still on the edge of our seat, we're still 135 00:06:54,526 --> 00:06:57,645 Speaker 1: biting our nails waiting for the shoe to drop. Ok? 136 00:06:57,656 --> 00:07:00,996 Speaker 1: Would you say then that this is a favorable time 137 00:07:01,005 --> 00:07:04,936 Speaker 1: to buy stocks considering they are I guess cheaper or 138 00:07:04,946 --> 00:07:07,445 Speaker 1: lower priced at this time, there are definitely pockets of opportunities. 139 00:07:07,851 --> 00:07:10,462 Speaker 1: Like for example, this year, we talk about the rally 140 00:07:10,471 --> 00:07:13,131 Speaker 1: in us stocks. It is mainly driven by the A 141 00:07:13,141 --> 00:07:15,402 Speaker 1: I side of things, right? Which means that there can 142 00:07:15,411 --> 00:07:18,432 Speaker 1: be quite a lot of other sectors that are overlooked 143 00:07:18,441 --> 00:07:21,411 Speaker 1: and have yet to recover. There can be some opportunities 144 00:07:21,421 --> 00:07:24,712 Speaker 1: over there. And of course, investors also have to look 145 00:07:24,721 --> 00:07:28,282 Speaker 1: at what is their investment horizon. I would always advocate 146 00:07:28,291 --> 00:07:30,441 Speaker 1: that if you have a long term horizon, right? It 147 00:07:30,451 --> 00:07:31,661 Speaker 1: actually makes sense that every 148 00:07:31,727 --> 00:07:33,528 Speaker 1: time you have some capital to invest, you should just 149 00:07:33,537 --> 00:07:35,877 Speaker 1: go ahead instead of really timing the market because you 150 00:07:35,888 --> 00:07:37,847 Speaker 1: really would know if it's low, you buy more, right? 151 00:07:37,858 --> 00:07:40,648 Speaker 1: If it's high, you buy less, but it's that consistency 152 00:07:40,657 --> 00:07:43,238 Speaker 1: that really build out the wealth. So in a downturn, 153 00:07:43,247 --> 00:07:47,608 Speaker 1: we tend to turn to safe haven assets. So your gold, silver, 154 00:07:47,618 --> 00:07:52,138 Speaker 1: your precious metals, even property, sometimes its currency as well. 155 00:07:52,178 --> 00:07:55,738 Speaker 1: Are these worth the buy in at this time? 156 00:07:55,944 --> 00:07:58,003 Speaker 1: And what kind of returns are we looking at when 157 00:07:58,014 --> 00:08:02,704 Speaker 1: the market does recover? Generally? I don't think alternative investments 158 00:08:02,713 --> 00:08:06,514 Speaker 1: are better than say stocks for the long run. And 159 00:08:06,523 --> 00:08:10,783 Speaker 1: some of the names that you mentioned have specific characteristics. 160 00:08:10,963 --> 00:08:13,843 Speaker 1: For example, if you want to buy gold, you are 161 00:08:13,854 --> 00:08:16,704 Speaker 1: actually betting against a weakening US dollar. You are indirectly 162 00:08:16,713 --> 00:08:19,563 Speaker 1: shorting the dollar, right? Because the goal is priced in 163 00:08:19,574 --> 00:08:20,093 Speaker 1: dollar 164 00:08:20,420 --> 00:08:23,809 Speaker 1: and gold price tends to go up if the US 165 00:08:23,820 --> 00:08:26,769 Speaker 1: dollar weakens and vice versa. Right? So should I wait 166 00:08:26,779 --> 00:08:28,970 Speaker 1: for the US dollar to strengthen, then I go and 167 00:08:28,980 --> 00:08:30,820 Speaker 1: buy my gold. It's almost like you are betting on 168 00:08:30,829 --> 00:08:33,728 Speaker 1: a forex, you are betting on us dollar strength and 169 00:08:33,739 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: the US dollar strength in turn is related to whether 170 00:08:36,289 --> 00:08:39,059 Speaker 1: the Federal Reserve is hiking rates or cutting rates. So 171 00:08:39,070 --> 00:08:41,469 Speaker 1: you can see it's a whole big macro mess that 172 00:08:41,479 --> 00:08:44,189 Speaker 1: you need to figure out a domino thing. Exactly. So 173 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:49,010 Speaker 1: go itself doesn't have value unless people believe there is value. 174 00:08:49,250 --> 00:08:52,630 Speaker 1: And historically, it has been seen as a store of value, right? 175 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:54,770 Speaker 1: Because it's seen as money. I mean, it's the thing 176 00:08:54,780 --> 00:08:57,349 Speaker 1: that my mom goes to LA until US d came 177 00:08:57,359 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: about and the link from go and become a fiat currency. 178 00:09:01,010 --> 00:09:03,020 Speaker 1: But yet, because gold is still price in us dollar, 179 00:09:03,030 --> 00:09:05,619 Speaker 1: that relationship is still there. Right? So that's where the 180 00:09:05,630 --> 00:09:09,039 Speaker 1: value in buying gold so called lies is in the 181 00:09:09,049 --> 00:09:12,439 Speaker 1: UD valuation. Yes, exactly. So, the addition to buy gold 182 00:09:12,450 --> 00:09:14,309 Speaker 1: or not is really relies on the Mac 183 00:09:14,530 --> 00:09:17,122 Speaker 1: analysis, which I think is not easy to get, right? 184 00:09:17,252 --> 00:09:20,780 Speaker 1: Even economists don't get it right. I don't, I don't think, 185 00:09:21,322 --> 00:09:23,742 Speaker 1: I mean, if someone got it right, we will be 186 00:09:23,752 --> 00:09:26,790 Speaker 1: set for our lives. Right. Yeah. So I would say 187 00:09:26,802 --> 00:09:30,142 Speaker 1: that conventionally, I will still believe that stocks are one 188 00:09:30,151 --> 00:09:33,801 Speaker 1: of the best longer investments out there, ok? Because even historically, 189 00:09:33,971 --> 00:09:37,481 Speaker 1: the returns have been better than if you just buy gold. Ok. 190 00:09:37,492 --> 00:09:39,382 Speaker 1: So let's get into the nitty gritty of that. 191 00:09:39,614 --> 00:09:42,522 Speaker 1: Let's first try and define what it means to be 192 00:09:42,533 --> 00:09:45,943 Speaker 1: recession proof. Is there such a thing? Should we call 193 00:09:45,953 --> 00:09:52,593 Speaker 1: it recession safe? Instead? I think a better word is defensive, recession, defensive, 194 00:09:52,604 --> 00:09:55,554 Speaker 1: defensive stocks rather than like recession proof. So don't think 195 00:09:55,564 --> 00:09:58,674 Speaker 1: of it. Don't frame it as under the recession conversation. Yeah. 196 00:09:58,684 --> 00:10:01,323 Speaker 1: And defensive doesn't mean that you cannot let the opener, 197 00:10:01,403 --> 00:10:02,843 Speaker 1: Gore go, you still can. But at the end of day, 198 00:10:02,854 --> 00:10:03,983 Speaker 1: you want to win the match, right? 199 00:10:04,796 --> 00:10:07,806 Speaker 1: You win 21 is still nice analogy there. Nice analogy. 200 00:10:07,815 --> 00:10:10,665 Speaker 1: You have to take some hits, but it doesn't mean 201 00:10:10,676 --> 00:10:12,616 Speaker 1: you don't win the game, the long game. Yeah. So, 202 00:10:12,625 --> 00:10:15,195 Speaker 1: for example, in the context of stocks, right, which means 203 00:10:15,205 --> 00:10:17,995 Speaker 1: that if you buy defensive stocks and if the market 204 00:10:18,005 --> 00:10:21,346 Speaker 1: crash happens, it doesn't mean that your stocks won't go down. Right. 205 00:10:21,356 --> 00:10:23,425 Speaker 1: It's possible that you can go down, but if your 206 00:10:23,434 --> 00:10:26,866 Speaker 1: stocks go down less, maybe down 5% other people's stocks 207 00:10:26,875 --> 00:10:29,726 Speaker 1: were down 30% you relatively feel good. Right. Yeah, 208 00:10:30,869 --> 00:10:33,949 Speaker 1: I lost, I lost. Yeah. No, it's true though. It 209 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:35,940 Speaker 1: is true. It is true. So, I would say that 210 00:10:35,950 --> 00:10:39,179 Speaker 1: having that defensive maybe is a better word than recession proof. Ok. 211 00:10:39,190 --> 00:10:43,030 Speaker 1: So we will go with that term defensive stocks instead. 212 00:10:43,039 --> 00:10:46,859 Speaker 1: So what are the characteristics then of stocks and investments 213 00:10:46,940 --> 00:10:51,599 Speaker 1: that are defensive? Intuitively? People will always think of defensive 214 00:10:51,609 --> 00:10:55,189 Speaker 1: as sectors or businesses where people will still demand their 215 00:10:55,322 --> 00:11:00,420 Speaker 1: products and services, good sort of thing. Groceries, you will 216 00:11:00,432 --> 00:11:03,052 Speaker 1: still go to supermarket. In fact, you go more because 217 00:11:03,062 --> 00:11:05,580 Speaker 1: restaurant will be too expensive. So you go and buy 218 00:11:05,591 --> 00:11:08,322 Speaker 1: food to cook at home. That's true. So supermarket business 219 00:11:08,331 --> 00:11:10,622 Speaker 1: might even go up rather than go down. So with 220 00:11:10,631 --> 00:11:16,171 Speaker 1: something like your electricity companies, utilities, basically anything that people 221 00:11:16,182 --> 00:11:18,981 Speaker 1: would still use the product services during a recession. And 222 00:11:18,992 --> 00:11:20,072 Speaker 1: what else outside of 223 00:11:20,153 --> 00:11:23,083 Speaker 1: that segment can we look at in terms of health care? 224 00:11:23,093 --> 00:11:24,633 Speaker 1: I would think so. Right. Because if you are you, are, 225 00:11:24,823 --> 00:11:26,754 Speaker 1: you have to see a doctor, I think, especially in 226 00:11:26,763 --> 00:11:31,193 Speaker 1: Singapore where we are driving towards healthier aging, that sort 227 00:11:31,203 --> 00:11:33,763 Speaker 1: of stuff. So, there's longevity in that. Right. Or even 228 00:11:33,773 --> 00:11:38,004 Speaker 1: aging homes. Right. Because you can't stop aging because it's recession. Right. So, 229 00:11:38,013 --> 00:11:42,403 Speaker 1: so there are businesses like this that are pretty immune, 230 00:11:42,414 --> 00:11:44,624 Speaker 1: ok to the economic ups and downs, right. 231 00:11:44,986 --> 00:11:47,366 Speaker 1: The need. It's a need and not a want. What 232 00:11:47,375 --> 00:11:50,145 Speaker 1: about things like reeds? I know streets tend to be 233 00:11:50,155 --> 00:11:53,515 Speaker 1: quite popular in Singapore. Weeds can be a little bit 234 00:11:53,526 --> 00:11:55,745 Speaker 1: more cyclical. Of course, it depends on the type of 235 00:11:55,755 --> 00:11:58,955 Speaker 1: properties that they have. But if we generally look at it, 236 00:11:58,966 --> 00:12:03,426 Speaker 1: like for example, your industrial definitely is cyclical in good times, 237 00:12:03,434 --> 00:12:06,835 Speaker 1: you have more people renting spaces because they have more business, 238 00:12:06,846 --> 00:12:08,995 Speaker 1: they have more staff moving around, they have more stuff 239 00:12:09,005 --> 00:12:11,835 Speaker 1: to be produced, same as office. Right. Because if the 240 00:12:11,846 --> 00:12:14,356 Speaker 1: times are good people expand and they need more office 241 00:12:14,366 --> 00:12:14,776 Speaker 1: space 242 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:18,848 Speaker 1: and well, office spaces haven't looked good in a while. Yeah, exactly. Right. 243 00:12:18,859 --> 00:12:21,218 Speaker 1: So they tend to be more cyclical and sensitive to 244 00:12:21,229 --> 00:12:24,039 Speaker 1: interest rate. So that's another side of the story. But 245 00:12:24,049 --> 00:12:26,809 Speaker 1: there are health care rates. They are definitely a lot 246 00:12:26,820 --> 00:12:30,250 Speaker 1: more resilient. Ok. And what about stuff like aviation? Is 247 00:12:30,260 --> 00:12:32,869 Speaker 1: that something that we can look at as well? Hospitality, 248 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,729 Speaker 1: I think at this point in time, the tourism team 249 00:12:35,739 --> 00:12:38,169 Speaker 1: is coming back and we have yet to recover. To 250 00:12:38,179 --> 00:12:40,909 Speaker 1: pre-covid numbers for tourism, which means there can be 251 00:12:40,974 --> 00:12:44,044 Speaker 1: be some room for growth, but they are definitely not defensive. 252 00:12:44,094 --> 00:12:48,075 Speaker 1: If recession comes, we tighten your belt or another pandemic. Yeah, 253 00:12:48,085 --> 00:12:50,924 Speaker 1: you will not think of travel, you buy your food, 254 00:12:50,934 --> 00:12:54,174 Speaker 1: but you may postpone your travel. Yeah. And also considering 255 00:12:54,184 --> 00:12:57,474 Speaker 1: how we are living in such inflationary times, people are 256 00:12:57,484 --> 00:12:59,854 Speaker 1: a bit more, I guess, thrifty when it comes to 257 00:12:59,864 --> 00:13:02,973 Speaker 1: their money for luxuries like traveling. Right? So they are 258 00:13:02,984 --> 00:13:05,854 Speaker 1: definitely not defensive. But if the economy continue to be 259 00:13:05,864 --> 00:13:08,525 Speaker 1: good and picked up that, I believe tourism will do well. 260 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,939 Speaker 2: Hello everyone. My name is Steven Cheer and I'm host 261 00:13:14,950 --> 00:13:18,869 Speaker 2: of CNAs Weekly news podcast, Heart of the Matter each week. 262 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:21,770 Speaker 2: My job is to ask the questions you have. Like, 263 00:13:21,780 --> 00:13:25,609 Speaker 2: why is the coe so high? Why aren't singles dating 264 00:13:25,770 --> 00:13:27,890 Speaker 2: or what's going on with the red 265 00:13:27,979 --> 00:13:30,950 Speaker 2: hot property market in Singapore? If you want the views 266 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,849 Speaker 2: behind the news, then tune in each week as we 267 00:13:33,859 --> 00:13:36,109 Speaker 2: get to the heart of the matter, we are on 268 00:13:36,119 --> 00:13:38,700 Speaker 2: the CN A and me listen apps and wherever you 269 00:13:38,710 --> 00:13:42,130 Speaker 2: get your podcasts hit, follow or subscribe. So you don't 270 00:13:42,140 --> 00:13:43,969 Speaker 2: miss an episode when it drops. 271 00:13:48,359 --> 00:13:51,479 Speaker 1: So apart from just buying lower price stocks, which seems 272 00:13:51,489 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: to be the theme that we're going for. Now, there 273 00:13:53,770 --> 00:13:58,409 Speaker 1: are some segments that can weather a recession better than others, right? 274 00:13:58,419 --> 00:14:00,869 Speaker 1: So what would some of these be in your view? 275 00:14:00,890 --> 00:14:02,619 Speaker 1: I think the other way to look at it is 276 00:14:02,630 --> 00:14:06,340 Speaker 1: not to just look at sectors or businesses in terms 277 00:14:06,349 --> 00:14:08,919 Speaker 1: of what we have discussed so far. But to look 278 00:14:08,929 --> 00:14:11,130 Speaker 1: at certain characteristics of the 279 00:14:11,247 --> 00:14:14,986 Speaker 1: businesses, for example, we can evaluate whether a business is 280 00:14:14,997 --> 00:14:17,836 Speaker 1: defensive by looking at how you perform in the past. 281 00:14:17,846 --> 00:14:20,166 Speaker 1: Because if there is a recession coming, it's not going 282 00:14:20,177 --> 00:14:22,216 Speaker 1: to be the 1st 10, yeah, there are many, many 283 00:14:22,226 --> 00:14:26,187 Speaker 1: recession before. So we can definitely look at certain stocks 284 00:14:26,197 --> 00:14:29,017 Speaker 1: by looking at their past performance during the last recession, 285 00:14:29,026 --> 00:14:32,906 Speaker 1: maybe fundamental matter here. Did they cut dividends? Did they 286 00:14:32,916 --> 00:14:33,956 Speaker 1: cut revenue, did they? 287 00:14:34,133 --> 00:14:37,604 Speaker 1: But profits did decline. And if the share price go down, 288 00:14:37,614 --> 00:14:39,864 Speaker 1: how much do you go down relative to other stocks? 289 00:14:39,874 --> 00:14:41,994 Speaker 1: So then we know that there is some proof whether 290 00:14:42,004 --> 00:14:44,934 Speaker 1: this stock is indeed defensive or not. Right. And basically 291 00:14:44,943 --> 00:14:47,903 Speaker 1: you're looking at the power of the rebound of that stock. 292 00:14:48,004 --> 00:14:51,013 Speaker 1: So that would give us some sensing how it would 293 00:14:51,023 --> 00:14:53,833 Speaker 1: perform into the recession come. Ok. So if these stocks 294 00:14:53,843 --> 00:14:56,424 Speaker 1: tend to be more resilient against recessions 295 00:14:57,020 --> 00:14:59,591 Speaker 1: would be their vulnerabilities. And surely there are some weak 296 00:14:59,601 --> 00:15:02,041 Speaker 1: points because they can't all be rosy all the time. Right. 297 00:15:02,051 --> 00:15:03,781 Speaker 1: The bad thing about defensive store is that ok? They 298 00:15:03,791 --> 00:15:07,741 Speaker 1: do relatively better during a recession during bad times, but 299 00:15:07,750 --> 00:15:10,721 Speaker 1: during good times, they underperform, OK? Because they tend to 300 00:15:10,731 --> 00:15:13,591 Speaker 1: be very stable, steady. Right. Right. So they just stagnate. Yeah. 301 00:15:13,601 --> 00:15:15,911 Speaker 1: So they don't grow, they don't enjoy the boom when 302 00:15:15,921 --> 00:15:18,101 Speaker 1: it comes. So when the boom comes, that's where the 303 00:15:18,111 --> 00:15:19,851 Speaker 1: risky stocks will outperform. 304 00:15:20,150 --> 00:15:22,450 Speaker 1: And for some investors who will hold on to the 305 00:15:22,460 --> 00:15:25,679 Speaker 1: defensive stocks and they will be feeling like, oh, my friend, 306 00:15:25,690 --> 00:15:27,789 Speaker 1: my neighbor is making more money than me. I cannot 307 00:15:27,799 --> 00:15:29,650 Speaker 1: take it anymore. I need to sell my defensive and 308 00:15:29,659 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: get into those exciting stocks. But that's where the problem 309 00:15:33,010 --> 00:15:37,330 Speaker 1: happens because when you feel that assignment lightly, it might 310 00:15:37,340 --> 00:15:39,599 Speaker 1: be near the end because everybody has made their money. 311 00:15:39,609 --> 00:15:41,469 Speaker 1: Exactly who is going to buy from by the time 312 00:15:41,479 --> 00:15:43,809 Speaker 1: you realize? Oh, you know, I could have been making 313 00:15:43,820 --> 00:15:45,780 Speaker 1: more money out of this. Your time in that 314 00:15:45,854 --> 00:15:48,864 Speaker 1: the market is too late. Yeah. So my guess about 315 00:15:48,875 --> 00:15:51,484 Speaker 1: this problem with defensive stock is that they don't prosper 316 00:15:51,494 --> 00:15:54,684 Speaker 1: during good times and people might lose patience on them. Ok. 317 00:15:54,695 --> 00:15:58,224 Speaker 1: Are there other weak points like every other business, even 318 00:15:58,234 --> 00:16:01,854 Speaker 1: defensive stock? Sometimes their business can deteriorate. Their fundamentals can 319 00:16:01,864 --> 00:16:04,984 Speaker 1: go poorer over time. Which means that if an investor 320 00:16:04,994 --> 00:16:08,265 Speaker 1: picks some of these businesses or stocks, the constant monitoring 321 00:16:08,275 --> 00:16:10,294 Speaker 1: is required right time to time may not be a 322 00:16:10,304 --> 00:16:11,484 Speaker 1: daily monitoring, but 323 00:16:11,719 --> 00:16:14,159 Speaker 1: every year maybe, you know, like a spring cleaning, you 324 00:16:14,169 --> 00:16:16,729 Speaker 1: need to look at your stocks. My observation over the years, 325 00:16:16,739 --> 00:16:20,020 Speaker 1: looking at investors, they have a tendency to buy but 326 00:16:20,030 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: they don't have a tendency to sell. Yeah, they hang 327 00:16:22,770 --> 00:16:25,179 Speaker 1: on to it, like, out of some strange loyalty. And 328 00:16:25,190 --> 00:16:27,619 Speaker 1: I've always been intrigued by that psychology. Do you have 329 00:16:27,630 --> 00:16:30,460 Speaker 1: any observations on that one is definitely loss of version. Right. 330 00:16:30,469 --> 00:16:32,929 Speaker 1: Because it's painful to sell at a loss. It's easy 331 00:16:32,940 --> 00:16:35,729 Speaker 1: to sell something that has gained, like, 10% sell. Well, 332 00:16:35,739 --> 00:16:36,789 Speaker 1: I feel so good. Right. 333 00:16:37,913 --> 00:16:39,932 Speaker 1: 10% loss. Oh. But if I sell, it means I 334 00:16:39,942 --> 00:16:41,843 Speaker 1: lose money. If I don't say I still have hope 335 00:16:41,853 --> 00:16:44,882 Speaker 1: that it might come back up this kind of mentality. 336 00:16:45,453 --> 00:16:47,982 Speaker 1: Do you think that kind of mentality is healthy? It 337 00:16:47,992 --> 00:16:52,632 Speaker 1: definitely is not that good for investor because the fact 338 00:16:52,643 --> 00:16:56,213 Speaker 1: is that no one can pick stocks 100% correct all 339 00:16:56,223 --> 00:16:58,572 Speaker 1: the time. Yeah, just like how economies don't always get 340 00:16:58,583 --> 00:17:02,052 Speaker 1: the forecast, right? Even Warren Buffett, but he is honest 341 00:17:02,062 --> 00:17:04,022 Speaker 1: about it and he's able to sell. 342 00:17:04,104 --> 00:17:06,805 Speaker 1: So even at a big loss, right, millions of dollars, 343 00:17:06,814 --> 00:17:08,494 Speaker 1: he will take that loss and he will move on. 344 00:17:08,594 --> 00:17:12,034 Speaker 1: So that is a necessary part of spring cleaning, right? 345 00:17:12,045 --> 00:17:14,795 Speaker 1: You need to keep your portfolio clean if I can 346 00:17:14,805 --> 00:17:17,685 Speaker 1: use that energy, right? A portfolio is like a garden. 347 00:17:17,915 --> 00:17:20,275 Speaker 1: Of course, you want to have as many flowers as possible, right? 348 00:17:20,285 --> 00:17:23,494 Speaker 1: That resemble your gains, right? But we cannot guarantee a 349 00:17:23,505 --> 00:17:26,635 Speaker 1: garden will always have flowers, there will always be weeds 350 00:17:26,834 --> 00:17:28,305 Speaker 1: and what do we do with them? We got to 351 00:17:28,314 --> 00:17:30,194 Speaker 1: get rid of them, we get rid of them, right? 352 00:17:30,479 --> 00:17:32,649 Speaker 1: So these weeds represent those stocks that should not be 353 00:17:32,660 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 1: in the portfolio. But people don't, they keep it and 354 00:17:35,689 --> 00:17:37,489 Speaker 1: they hope that the weeds can turn into flower one day. 355 00:17:38,060 --> 00:17:40,510 Speaker 1: It's like hoarding for the wrong reason. So if we 356 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,770 Speaker 1: use that analogy, the, it just doesn't make sense. Yeah, 357 00:17:43,780 --> 00:17:46,169 Speaker 1: you are right. So you did mention the kinds of 358 00:17:46,180 --> 00:17:48,390 Speaker 1: homework we need to do before we buy into a 359 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,420 Speaker 1: company stock. So company fundamentals, historical performance. What about fund 360 00:17:52,430 --> 00:17:56,920 Speaker 1: baskets that comprise the so called safer, more defensive stocks 361 00:17:56,930 --> 00:18:00,079 Speaker 1: are these fund baskets an option if I don't want 362 00:18:00,089 --> 00:18:02,139 Speaker 1: to buy individual stocks and if yes, 363 00:18:02,233 --> 00:18:04,113 Speaker 1: what are the pros and cons to them? I would 364 00:18:04,123 --> 00:18:07,402 Speaker 1: definitely suggest that majority of people should buy into funds 365 00:18:07,412 --> 00:18:10,233 Speaker 1: or ETF S right? Rather than picking individual one as 366 00:18:10,243 --> 00:18:13,593 Speaker 1: we have discussed is a challenging task. You need to 367 00:18:13,603 --> 00:18:15,883 Speaker 1: pay attention and you need to know your stuff otherwise 368 00:18:15,892 --> 00:18:17,902 Speaker 1: it's going to be difficult. So what do we need 369 00:18:17,912 --> 00:18:22,782 Speaker 1: to understand overall when it comes to buying defensive stocks 370 00:18:22,792 --> 00:18:26,463 Speaker 1: in terms of returns, timing, time in the market 371 00:18:26,635 --> 00:18:29,365 Speaker 1: would think that a lot of defensive stocks appeals to 372 00:18:29,375 --> 00:18:32,066 Speaker 1: a group of investors that tend to be more conservative. 373 00:18:32,145 --> 00:18:35,036 Speaker 1: So I guess that people who are listening to this 374 00:18:35,046 --> 00:18:39,426 Speaker 1: podcast have already self selected themselves and they look at 375 00:18:39,436 --> 00:18:42,015 Speaker 1: the word defensive. They come in because they are more service, 376 00:18:42,166 --> 00:18:47,296 Speaker 1: those who are aggressive investor, they look at this. This 377 00:18:47,465 --> 00:18:50,764 Speaker 1: episode comes up. Defensive is boring. 378 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:53,379 Speaker 1: I need to get rich quick. 379 00:18:53,949 --> 00:18:56,500 Speaker 1: This is too slow for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And 380 00:18:56,510 --> 00:18:59,139 Speaker 1: this defensive stores also have the connotation that it is 381 00:18:59,150 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 1: a boomer kind of. Yes. So I will also assume 382 00:19:02,170 --> 00:19:04,119 Speaker 1: that the audience who are tuning in tend to be 383 00:19:04,130 --> 00:19:08,270 Speaker 1: older and more reasonable. Actually, sometimes women too, apparently the 384 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,839 Speaker 1: psychology of women when they invest is that they are 385 00:19:10,849 --> 00:19:12,319 Speaker 1: in it for the long term. They just want to 386 00:19:12,329 --> 00:19:14,109 Speaker 1: do this and not think about it for the rest 387 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,589 Speaker 1: of their lives until it's time to catch out. Record 388 00:19:16,599 --> 00:19:19,339 Speaker 1: shows that female investors are actually better than male. There 389 00:19:19,349 --> 00:19:22,079 Speaker 1: we go. Yeah, because the male takes too much risk 390 00:19:22,089 --> 00:19:23,208 Speaker 1: so they lose more. 391 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,709 Speaker 1: So what mistakes do you think we should avoid when 392 00:19:27,719 --> 00:19:31,810 Speaker 1: buying into the defensive stocks in the market? One of 393 00:19:31,819 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 1: the key things that potentially may harm a defensive investor 394 00:19:35,449 --> 00:19:38,319 Speaker 1: is that they think that defensive stocks are safe. But 395 00:19:38,329 --> 00:19:40,079 Speaker 1: in my opinion, there are no such thing as a 396 00:19:40,089 --> 00:19:43,859 Speaker 1: safe stocks, even defensive stocks have their risk. And the 397 00:19:43,869 --> 00:19:45,579 Speaker 1: worst is that you think that you buy it, you 398 00:19:45,589 --> 00:19:47,640 Speaker 1: will not lose money and the share price come down 399 00:19:47,650 --> 00:19:49,790 Speaker 1: and you panic and then you don't know what to do, 400 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,909 Speaker 1: which means it's a problem with the expectation and reality 401 00:19:53,140 --> 00:19:55,069 Speaker 1: and I don't think that people should go away with 402 00:19:55,079 --> 00:19:58,209 Speaker 1: the idea that defensive stores are safe, guarantee. They are 403 00:19:58,219 --> 00:20:02,198 Speaker 1: definitely not as safe as your CPF. They are definitely 404 00:20:02,209 --> 00:20:05,389 Speaker 1: not as safe as your investment grade bonds. They can 405 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,389 Speaker 1: return you the money at the end of the maturity 406 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,409 Speaker 1: by your principal guarantee or fixed D or this. 407 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,569 Speaker 1: So it definitely will have a risk that is higher 408 00:20:12,579 --> 00:20:14,989 Speaker 1: than what most people are used to putting their money 409 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: in the banks and treasury bills and such. So they 410 00:20:18,010 --> 00:20:21,599 Speaker 1: need to be able to understand that volatility can happen. 411 00:20:21,609 --> 00:20:23,209 Speaker 1: Which means that if you buy a defensive stock, you 412 00:20:23,219 --> 00:20:25,500 Speaker 1: can still go down 10% because the defensive stock is 413 00:20:25,510 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: still a stock is still a stock. So it's still 414 00:20:27,530 --> 00:20:30,530 Speaker 1: affected by the general market sentiment. The stock market may 415 00:20:30,540 --> 00:20:33,290 Speaker 1: go down 50% for example, maybe a defensive stock can 416 00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:35,270 Speaker 1: still go down 20% and you must 417 00:20:35,354 --> 00:20:38,055 Speaker 1: you ready for it. Let's talk about an exit strategy. 418 00:20:38,064 --> 00:20:41,925 Speaker 1: So we've bought some defensive stocks. We have diversified our portfolio. 419 00:20:41,935 --> 00:20:45,564 Speaker 1: We're looking good. What should help us decide when to 420 00:20:45,574 --> 00:20:49,234 Speaker 1: exit the market? Is this when the economy improves if 421 00:20:49,244 --> 00:20:51,925 Speaker 1: there are conservative investors out there who pick up these 422 00:20:51,935 --> 00:20:54,635 Speaker 1: defensive stocks, right? And we believe that it makes more 423 00:20:54,645 --> 00:20:57,104 Speaker 1: sense for them to just stay a long haul and 424 00:20:57,114 --> 00:20:59,665 Speaker 1: don't get tempted with during good market times where the 425 00:20:59,675 --> 00:21:00,984 Speaker 1: exciting stocks are running a lot 426 00:21:01,270 --> 00:21:03,310 Speaker 1: because if at that point in time you switch is 427 00:21:03,319 --> 00:21:06,839 Speaker 1: going to make matter worse. So having that stability in 428 00:21:06,849 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: your portfolio, that consistency maybe hold for 5, 10 years 429 00:21:10,219 --> 00:21:14,020 Speaker 1: and I think that is a better way for conservative investors. 430 00:21:14,030 --> 00:21:16,550 Speaker 1: I think the affordability of taking the hit is the 431 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:19,430 Speaker 1: most important thing here. Right? Sometimes you don't know until 432 00:21:19,439 --> 00:21:22,149 Speaker 1: you experience, maybe some people believe that oh I can 433 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:23,339 Speaker 1: take a 10% hit 434 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,089 Speaker 1: but then when the 10% draw down happens, then they panic, right? 435 00:21:27,099 --> 00:21:29,369 Speaker 1: Some people think that they can take 20% but they can't. 436 00:21:29,380 --> 00:21:33,129 Speaker 1: And for aggressive investors who are thinking of what professional 437 00:21:33,140 --> 00:21:36,180 Speaker 1: cost sector rotation, that means you switch to defensive during 438 00:21:36,189 --> 00:21:39,329 Speaker 1: a recession and you switch to growth during the growth phase. 439 00:21:39,739 --> 00:21:40,550 Speaker 1: And for 440 00:21:40,714 --> 00:21:43,265 Speaker 1: that, you need to get the timing right, very accurately 441 00:21:43,275 --> 00:21:45,814 Speaker 1: and not a lot of people can do it correctly. 442 00:21:45,824 --> 00:21:49,435 Speaker 1: So I would say that there is definitely risk, ok? 443 00:21:49,444 --> 00:21:52,974 Speaker 1: But it's not impossible. It's just very challenging. Yeah, it 444 00:21:52,984 --> 00:21:54,545 Speaker 1: is challenging and I think you need to do a 445 00:21:54,555 --> 00:21:56,714 Speaker 1: lot of research and really know what you're doing. And 446 00:21:56,724 --> 00:22:00,464 Speaker 1: if you don't, the safe path may be the boring path, 447 00:22:00,474 --> 00:22:02,564 Speaker 1: but it's not always a bad thing. 448 00:22:03,140 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 1: So a recession isn't always doom and gloom. Yes, it's 449 00:22:07,170 --> 00:22:09,449 Speaker 1: a big R word, but it doesn't have to be 450 00:22:09,459 --> 00:22:12,949 Speaker 1: a scary word that said if you harbor fears of 451 00:22:12,959 --> 00:22:16,899 Speaker 1: your holdings as a recession looms completely warranted, we totally 452 00:22:16,910 --> 00:22:19,670 Speaker 1: get it. It's fine to be scared. But there are 453 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,270 Speaker 1: some bright spots that you can consider if you find 454 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:25,589 Speaker 1: the courage to let some light in. Thanks Elvin for 455 00:22:25,599 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: coming into money talks and making us a little less 456 00:22:28,109 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: afraid of an impending recession. Thank you and thank you 457 00:22:31,569 --> 00:22:34,188 Speaker 1: to you, dear listener. Did you enjoy this episode of 458 00:22:34,199 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 1: Money Talks? Well, there's more content for you to enjoy 459 00:22:37,130 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: and tune into. Just follow us on Apple podcast or Spotify. 460 00:22:40,650 --> 00:22:43,270 Speaker 1: Give us five stars or leave a review. The team 461 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,170 Speaker 1: behind Money Talks is Jacqueline Chan, Joanne Chan Tiffany Ang, 462 00:22:47,180 --> 00:22:51,739 Speaker 1: Christina Robert, Jesselyn Tan and Wind and I'm Andrea Heng. 463 00:22:51,750 --> 00:22:52,910 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.