WEBVTT - Jamus Lim on choosing between love and career 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:02.890 Hey sonya and welcome back to another episode of Men 0:00:02.900 --> 0:00:06.060 explain 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:14.170 now we have a super special guest here today and 0:00:14.170 --> 0:00:16.670 he wears many hats by the way, I'm super impressed. 0:00:16.670 --> 0:00:20.570 He is not just an economist, a professor, a husband, 0:00:20.579 --> 0:00:23.200 a father, he's James lim. Welcome. 0:00:23.210 --> 0:00:25.150 Thank you, thank you for having me. I'm not so 0:00:25.150 --> 0:00:28.500 sure if I deserve that extensive introduction. But yes, I 0:00:28.500 --> 0:00:30.350 wear many hats but I think many of us do 0:00:30.350 --> 0:00:30.810 these days. 0:00:30.810 --> 0:00:33.089 Tell us more about yourself. I mean aside from all 0:00:33.090 --> 0:00:34.110 this stuff that we already know 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:36.279 these days, I like to think of myself primarily as 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:39.440 a father rather than anything else. And I see that 0:00:39.440 --> 0:00:43.570 as my main contribution to the extension of some, some 0:00:43.570 --> 0:00:47.940 legacy if you will of course I also am a 0:00:47.950 --> 0:00:52.620 representative in so that's a big part of my duties 0:00:52.620 --> 0:00:54.350 and I'm also a teacher and educator 0:00:54.640 --> 0:00:55.530 at the university. 0:00:55.540 --> 0:00:57.530 How do you do all that man? Seriously? 0:00:57.540 --> 0:00:59.830 You don't get as much sleep as you 0:00:59.830 --> 0:01:00.970 like. 0:01:00.980 --> 0:01:07.039 You asked for indulgence especially from family. So thankfully my daughter, 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:10.450 she's 2.5 so she doesn't quite understand 0:01:10.740 --> 0:01:13.390 the idea of compromise quite yet. So I take advantage 0:01:13.390 --> 0:01:16.780 of that. Well while she isn't always as demanding of time. 0:01:16.790 --> 0:01:18.970 Fantastic. Well I'm sure you get to spend a little 0:01:18.970 --> 0:01:21.090 bit more time with her like on the weekends, especially 0:01:21.090 --> 0:01:21.360 like 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:22.500 how do you juggle? Yeah, 0:01:22.510 --> 0:01:25.680 so this is quite a bit of trying to integrate 0:01:25.690 --> 0:01:30.020 activities that I have to do both for my official 0:01:30.020 --> 0:01:33.430 duties as well as just spending time with the family. 0:01:33.430 --> 0:01:36.870 So one of the things for instance, last weekend, one 0:01:36.870 --> 0:01:39.960 of the things that we do is we walk around 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:42.480 the estate and we just make sure that everything is 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:43.059 in order. 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:46.580 So last week I was able to bring my family 0:01:46.580 --> 0:01:50.890 with me and so she got to play at the playground, 0:01:50.900 --> 0:01:54.700 inspect the playground while I went about doing my regular day. 0:01:54.700 --> 0:01:57.370 It's important inspecting the playground. It's a key. 0:01:57.370 --> 0:02:01.000 Yeah, yeah, so it's a proof of concept and make 0:02:01.010 --> 0:02:04.440 my money is literally where my mouth is. So we've 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:07.920 got to make sure that things are, you know, in 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:09.780 shape and safe, more importantly, 0:02:09.790 --> 0:02:12.429 look, you know, being a politician that entails a lot, 0:02:12.440 --> 0:02:14.670 I'm sure and you know, it's almost like a 24 0:02:14.669 --> 0:02:16.380 7 sort of job for you as well as we 0:02:16.380 --> 0:02:19.240 were talking about earlier. Tell us a fun fact about yourself, 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:21.060 like maybe from the past, you know, tell us a 0:02:21.060 --> 0:02:22.980 bit more before you became who you are right now, 0:02:22.990 --> 0:02:26.049 people who know me think of myself as 0:02:26.139 --> 0:02:31.540 rather boring. I like to do very boring professor, real things. 0:02:31.550 --> 0:02:34.329 Okay, what is that? What's the definition of boring things? 0:02:34.330 --> 0:02:38.740 Well, I like to read. I, and, and unfortunately I 0:02:38.750 --> 0:02:43.040 don't have as much of a fascinating kind of literary diet. 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:45.760 I just end up reading more Economics and finance, 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:48.300 which is what I do professionally and I think that's 0:02:48.300 --> 0:02:51.070 interesting because when I was younger it wasn't the case. 0:02:51.080 --> 0:02:54.310 I think people change over time as I got into 0:02:54.310 --> 0:02:57.150 a profession that was a little bit more introverted 0:02:57.240 --> 0:02:59.930 and I became more introverted prior to that, I was 0:02:59.940 --> 0:03:02.579 very much an outdoor person, I was in the uniform group, 0:03:02.580 --> 0:03:07.180 I was I played sports, so those were definitely more 0:03:07.180 --> 0:03:10.540 extroverted kind of activities. And it was only much more 0:03:10.540 --> 0:03:15.530 recently when I started becoming an academic quintessential solo activity 0:03:15.530 --> 0:03:16.160 where even 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:18.959 the nature of sports I started to do 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:23.590 became a lot more solitary. So I picked up hiking 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:26.510 a lot more um I became very comfortable hiking by 0:03:26.510 --> 0:03:30.139 myself in the mountains, I think it speaks to the 0:03:30.139 --> 0:03:33.380 capacity of people to adapt and change. And I think 0:03:33.380 --> 0:03:37.970 it's important because we bucket ourselves into one particular category 0:03:37.970 --> 0:03:39.560 and I think it's important for us to 0:03:39.940 --> 0:03:42.550 actually look beyond that and and be comfortable 0:03:42.940 --> 0:03:45.360 pushing the boundaries of what you might 0:03:45.740 --> 0:03:49.840 have kind of pigeonholed yourself into. So it started that 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:53.150 way as an adaptation, but then 0:03:53.540 --> 0:03:56.550 I started opening up a lot more to just enjoying, 0:03:56.550 --> 0:04:00.130 just appreciating what I was doing, being present. I think 0:04:00.130 --> 0:04:04.170 sometimes we forget that um and being present, it doesn't 0:04:04.170 --> 0:04:07.650 come as naturally these days because you find that sometimes 0:04:07.660 --> 0:04:10.690 you are being inefficient with your time when you're not 0:04:10.700 --> 0:04:13.470 actively doing something good, but what are we doing most 0:04:13.470 --> 0:04:14.150 of the time we are 0:04:14.540 --> 0:04:18.020 scrolling through an endless feed and that's 0:04:18.020 --> 0:04:18.339 not 0:04:18.540 --> 0:04:22.150 that's not entirely efficient, right? So being able to be 0:04:22.150 --> 0:04:25.630 present just to appreciate what's going on around you. There's 0:04:25.630 --> 0:04:28.460 value in that that we sometimes have forgotten. I 0:04:28.460 --> 0:04:32.150 totally agree. I mean with the mindfulness practice with being present. 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:34.599 So just a side track. I spent a couple of 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:37.550 weeks in the US just for vacation. I went on sabbatical. 0:04:37.940 --> 0:04:40.380 I decided to just take a break from social media 0:04:40.390 --> 0:04:41.970 and I was like you know what, I'm not going 0:04:41.970 --> 0:04:44.160 to post anything, I'm not going to report what I've 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:46.130 been doing or like the fun stuff that I'm up to. 0:04:46.130 --> 0:04:48.599 I did take like 500,000 pictures but I didn't really 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:51.010 post much and as a result my followers like are 0:04:51.010 --> 0:04:53.370 you okay? Like you haven't posted in a very long 0:04:53.370 --> 0:04:55.850 time like are you alive? What's going on? 0:04:55.940 --> 0:04:59.330 I'm like I don't need to validate that all the time. 0:04:59.330 --> 0:05:01.110 So I see where you're coming from. But on that 0:05:01.110 --> 0:05:02.900 note of traveling, I mean you spend a lot of 0:05:02.900 --> 0:05:06.230 time overseas as well, right? A big bulk of your 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:08.909 time prior to being more based here in Singapore, you 0:05:08.910 --> 0:05:12.040 were overseas. So how did you sort of manage that? 0:05:12.050 --> 0:05:15.940 You know juggling between career personal relationships. Like can we 0:05:15.940 --> 0:05:17.240 really have it all? But I don't 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:19.780 know about having it all. I think if you're obsessed 0:05:19.779 --> 0:05:23.240 about that then you may be putting quite a bit 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:25.660 of stress on yourself. I think the idea is 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:29.050 to set goals aspirations and then 0:05:29.339 --> 0:05:32.679 just go ahead and do it. I left after N. S. 0:05:32.690 --> 0:05:36.219 And so I probably spent about the same number of 0:05:36.220 --> 0:05:40.590 years outside of Singapore as I have in Singapore. But 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:42.750 of course I'm a creature of 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:45.690 what I was while I was here. So my formative 0:05:45.690 --> 0:05:48.270 years were all here. I think like a Singaporean and 0:05:48.270 --> 0:05:51.260 yet being away from home makes you 0:05:51.630 --> 0:05:53.250 embrace a little bit more 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:56.779 who you are and and builds a certain kind of 0:05:56.779 --> 0:05:59.890 understanding of what it is to be, who you are. 0:05:59.900 --> 0:06:03.730 You need to find a level of comfort with yourself 0:06:03.740 --> 0:06:08.600 being by yourself. So Singaporeans records social creatures. So up 0:06:08.600 --> 0:06:10.460 till the time I was away 0:06:10.740 --> 0:06:14.000 I would never do social activities. Like watching a movie 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:14.550 or 0:06:14.740 --> 0:06:17.440 going to a restaurant by myself. You always did it 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:20.890 with friends right? Even if it was dragging someone like 0:06:20.890 --> 0:06:22.580 a colleague with you for lunch 0:06:23.300 --> 0:06:23.440 at 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:25.670 the very least do that. You will never have lunch 0:06:25.670 --> 0:06:27.690 by yourself. And so I learned how to be a 0:06:27.690 --> 0:06:31.690 bit more introspective, bit more reflective about just being comfortable 0:06:31.690 --> 0:06:31.960 with 0:06:32.140 --> 0:06:35.229 who I was. And I think that was valuable because 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:36.250 it allows me 0:06:36.540 --> 0:06:42.070 to understand full well what my limits are my what 0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:44.600 I'm comfortable doing what I'm not comfortable doing if I 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:49.900 decided to go beyond my usual comfort level what I 0:06:49.900 --> 0:06:51.060 could achieve. 0:06:51.070 --> 0:06:53.080 And it's a lot of self discovery as well which 0:06:53.089 --> 0:06:55.150 in turn affects your relationships. I don't know in the 0:06:55.150 --> 0:06:55.650 future 0:06:55.740 --> 0:06:58.070 but you know when it comes down to career and relationships, 0:06:58.070 --> 0:06:59.549 do you think they directly 0:06:59.740 --> 0:07:03.020 affect each other because I personally feel when I was, 0:07:03.029 --> 0:07:05.630 you know, doing badly in my personal life, for example, 0:07:05.630 --> 0:07:07.560 like you know, just not with the right person in 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.170 the right place fighting a lot, it kind of affected 0:07:10.170 --> 0:07:13.420 my productivity of my focus at work and stuff, you know, 0:07:13.420 --> 0:07:16.420 So in that sense it kind of did have a 0:07:16.430 --> 0:07:17.950 reaction in both ways. 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:20.230 So what do you think about this relationship between your 0:07:20.230 --> 0:07:23.140 career and your personal life? Are they directly intertwined? 0:07:23.150 --> 0:07:24.760 Inevitably? We are 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:30.150 humans are social creatures with emotions and in fact if 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:34.550 something were not to be all right at home, whether 0:07:34.550 --> 0:07:38.100 it is with my immediate family, my wife, my daughter, 0:07:38.100 --> 0:07:40.830 or even if you extended family, if you know that 0:07:40.830 --> 0:07:44.360 you have a family member that is ill or going 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:45.560 through a difficult time, 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:47.460 it will always hang 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.100 at the back of your mind and it will always 0:07:50.100 --> 0:07:52.600 have an effect. We are professionals in many things that 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:54.920 we do, so you often have to just get on 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:58.070 with the job, but I think to the extent that 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:01.580 it is something you can control or manage, you try 0:08:01.580 --> 0:08:04.450 to make sure that those things are taken care of 0:08:04.450 --> 0:08:04.760 and 0:08:04.940 --> 0:08:07.380 I think the way to make sure that they are 0:08:07.380 --> 0:08:08.590 taking care of is 0:08:08.740 --> 0:08:12.720 to ensure that you schedule and devote time to taking 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:13.960 care of those things. So 0:08:14.340 --> 0:08:18.620 as I mentioned weekends, often a fair chunk of that 0:08:18.620 --> 0:08:22.600 time is spent with family and and making sure that 0:08:22.610 --> 0:08:27.230 they get their dedicated time because during the week, especially weeknights, 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:30.420 so much of what I do have to do with 0:08:30.430 --> 0:08:34.460 being in sync gang. So when I 0:08:34.940 --> 0:08:37.440 make sure that things are taken care of at home, 0:08:37.450 --> 0:08:42.360 then I feel much more comfortable discharging my other responsibilities 0:08:42.360 --> 0:08:42.490 and 0:08:42.490 --> 0:08:44.540 duties in the past maybe when you were younger as 0:08:44.540 --> 0:08:47.100 a student or anything. Have you ever found yourself in 0:08:47.100 --> 0:08:50.559 a place where you felt you had to decide between 0:08:50.570 --> 0:08:53.690 a relationship and work? Have you ever been in that 0:08:53.690 --> 0:08:54.090 dilemma 0:08:54.090 --> 0:08:56.360 before? As you know, I left 0:08:56.640 --> 0:08:59.760 um Singapore and I went to pursue my studies abroad 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:02.510 and during one of those periods I was in a 0:09:02.510 --> 0:09:07.460 relationship prior to leaving and we had a long distance 0:09:07.460 --> 0:09:09.740 relationship for five years, 0:09:10.290 --> 0:09:12.349 five years, it was 0:09:12.350 --> 0:09:14.340 a long time for much of the time. We, we 0:09:14.340 --> 0:09:17.460 kind of made it work. She herself was 0:09:17.740 --> 0:09:21.370 going through her undergraduate studies, so she went abroad and 0:09:21.370 --> 0:09:23.359 so we met up, we were a bit too young 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:25.730 to confess that we were supposed to meet up or not, 0:09:25.740 --> 0:09:27.030 so we may or may not have met 0:09:27.030 --> 0:09:28.209 up in 0:09:28.210 --> 0:09:31.140 between. So, but in any case we would commit to 0:09:31.140 --> 0:09:31.860 meeting up, 0:09:32.340 --> 0:09:35.420 say every three months or so, three or four months 0:09:35.420 --> 0:09:39.939 just because the physical connection, especially if you're in a 0:09:39.940 --> 0:09:43.130 relationship is important as it turns out that that relationship 0:09:43.140 --> 0:09:46.090 didn't endure, but people make these kind of decisions all 0:09:46.090 --> 0:09:50.280 the time prior to my first job out of grad school. 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:52.860 I was in a small liberal arts college and 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:55.959 there I was also in a relationship with someone there 0:09:55.960 --> 0:10:00.020 and then an opportunity came up to go to Washington D. C. 0:10:00.030 --> 0:10:04.060 To work. And it was a difficult decision. I spent 0:10:04.070 --> 0:10:07.250 a lot of time mulling over it because it was 0:10:07.260 --> 0:10:10.260 about giving up a relationship but at the same time 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:14.559 taking on an exciting and interesting opportunity. So 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:17.690 you know everyone makes their own calculations and then you 0:10:17.700 --> 0:10:20.000 make that decision. You try of course to make one 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:21.770 thing work out the other in the end that one 0:10:21.780 --> 0:10:25.589 that relationship didn't work either. But again I think you 0:10:25.590 --> 0:10:29.309 don't make that decision flippantly right? You make that decision 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:32.260 with consideration and then 0:10:32.640 --> 0:10:35.960 you commit to it and you try your level best 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:38.840 to make sure that both sides of that decision are 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:40.050 taken care of. But 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:43.760 You know I was in my early 30s and 0:10:44.140 --> 0:10:47.130 Like many people in the early 30s you tend to 0:10:47.130 --> 0:10:51.040 prioritize career and and and professional goals a little bit 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:53.540 more because you feel that that's your time to make 0:10:53.540 --> 0:10:55.449 a mark. And so 0:10:55.940 --> 0:10:59.949 yeah unfortunately that relationship ended up being the casualties. 0:10:59.960 --> 0:11:02.400 Do you think it's like really related to the phase 0:11:02.400 --> 0:11:04.719 of your life. Like right now in this point in 0:11:04.720 --> 0:11:07.569 time if you were to be asked to relocate overseas 0:11:07.570 --> 0:11:10.370 or you know go work there for six months to 0:11:10.370 --> 0:11:12.210 a year I don't know would that be something that 0:11:12.210 --> 0:11:15.290 you're comfortable with or how you're going to have that conversation. 0:11:15.390 --> 0:11:16.550 So I'm stuck here until 0:11:17.340 --> 0:11:18.750 until the next election. 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:21.300 I suppose you're not going anywhere. I'm not going 0:11:21.300 --> 0:11:25.309 anywhere for now. But when when you say phase of 0:11:25.309 --> 0:11:27.630 life it's not a function of age is a function 0:11:27.630 --> 0:11:30.680 of where you are in your life right? So if 0:11:30.690 --> 0:11:33.740 you are in your early twenties but you have settled 0:11:33.740 --> 0:11:36.260 down you have a marriage, you have 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:39.560 a kid and you have an apartment then 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:41.829 that you are in that phase of life and it 0:11:41.830 --> 0:11:45.100 becomes a joint decision. You can't see him going to 0:11:45.100 --> 0:11:49.870 spend a few years chasing professional goals to the detriment 0:11:49.880 --> 0:11:53.590 of what you had already previously committed to. Then you 0:11:53.590 --> 0:11:56.160 know when you make a decision on where to go 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:59.650 It becomes a joint decision. So before leaving D. C. 0:11:59.650 --> 0:12:00.350 or 700. 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:02.860 And the offer was to go to abu Dhabi to 0:12:02.860 --> 0:12:06.180 spend some time there and at that time I was 0:12:06.190 --> 0:12:09.910 already married and so in a committed relationship with my wife. 0:12:09.910 --> 0:12:12.830 So I couldn't just say well look this thing doubles 0:12:12.830 --> 0:12:15.730 my salary. So let me just let me go and 0:12:15.730 --> 0:12:17.760 you stay here in D. C. And enjoy your time 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:18.460 and you know 0:12:18.540 --> 0:12:21.450 it was a joint decision and when 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:25.290 my wife was open to that possibility then it opened 0:12:25.290 --> 0:12:28.599 that possibility everyone I think when they are in a 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:31.970 certain phase of their life make decisions that have to 0:12:31.970 --> 0:12:36.100 do with the people that depend on them and that 0:12:36.110 --> 0:12:40.059 matter to them. My father, he had a tremendous opportunity 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:42.760 When he was in his 30 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:47.420 when um the studio that he was working for in 0:12:47.420 --> 0:12:50.490 Singapore closed down. And at the time the Singapore music 0:12:50.490 --> 0:12:54.040 scene wasn't as developed. And so he received an offer 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:57.170 to go to Taiwan to continue pursuing his career and 0:12:57.179 --> 0:13:00.890 it was a great opportunity. But at that time I 0:13:00.890 --> 0:13:02.550 was already born and he 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:04.349 made that decision that 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:08.270 he wanted me to be educated within the Singapore system 0:13:08.270 --> 0:13:11.550 to have english as my primary language. And 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:15.079 and so he gave that up. So I think different 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:18.569 people will have to weigh what matters to them. But ultimately, 0:13:18.580 --> 0:13:21.530 as I suggested it is it becomes a joint decision. 0:13:21.540 --> 0:13:24.179 That's a great example to be honest. So when I 0:13:24.179 --> 0:13:26.160 when I was in L. A. I had this conversation 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:28.710 with my friends because, you know, the media scene in L. A. 0:13:28.710 --> 0:13:32.090 Is so popping right, like there's literally so much going 0:13:32.090 --> 0:13:32.560 on there. 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.520 The support that is tremendous. Even though it's quite saturated, 0:13:35.530 --> 0:13:37.380 you know, everybody goes to L. A. Because you want 0:13:37.380 --> 0:13:40.209 to achieve a dream or you want to pursue something 0:13:40.210 --> 0:13:41.949 that maybe you didn't get a chance to back in 0:13:41.950 --> 0:13:44.429 your country. So my friends were asking me, they were like, hey, 0:13:44.429 --> 0:13:47.530 have you ever considered working in L. A. Or pursuing 0:13:47.530 --> 0:13:50.060 something overseas doesn't have to be L. A. Could be anywhere. 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:52.979 And to the people that I met in L. A. 0:13:52.990 --> 0:13:56.540 I started to kind of think of that possibility and 0:13:56.540 --> 0:13:59.329 it was just like kind of nagging at me at 0:13:59.330 --> 0:14:01.900 the back of my head but likewise I'm also in 0:14:01.900 --> 0:14:04.520 a relationship, it's been a few years already and we 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:06.550 also had this conversation because he said you know 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:11.120 you you never got a chance to do that overseas right? 0:14:11.130 --> 0:14:12.939 And you know it could be the kind of thing 0:14:12.940 --> 0:14:15.120 where you don't want to resent not being able to 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:19.850 have that opportunity to potentially pursue like something big in L. A. 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:22.570 But to us I don't know whether it might be 0:14:22.570 --> 0:14:25.820 a deal breaker at this point in time. Um And 0:14:25.830 --> 0:14:27.840 I don't know if you are tuning in right now, 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:30.800 any young couples tuning in whether this could be a 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:33.950 deal breaker if your partner not married yet goes here, 0:14:33.950 --> 0:14:36.720 I want to spend six months to a year working overseas, 0:14:36.730 --> 0:14:38.860 but I know that you have a job in Singapore. 0:14:38.940 --> 0:14:42.080 So what kind of advice would you then give us 0:14:42.090 --> 0:14:45.440 in this position more and more by the way, Millennials 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:47.580 and gen Z is um I don't know whether it's 0:14:47.580 --> 0:14:49.460 related to the pandemic as well 0:14:50.140 --> 0:14:53.020 want to pursue something overseas. In fact we have a 0:14:53.020 --> 0:14:56.480 crew member who is pursuing something in Korea like right 0:14:56.480 --> 0:14:59.200 now what kind of advice do you have for us? 0:14:59.210 --> 0:15:01.859 Well, so as I mentioned earlier on, one of the 0:15:02.340 --> 0:15:05.650 key things is to make sure that you and this 0:15:05.650 --> 0:15:07.770 is purely on a practical basis to make sure that 0:15:07.770 --> 0:15:10.710 you physically get together every now and then. So I 0:15:10.710 --> 0:15:15.390 think that's crucial, I think to manage one's expectations if 0:15:15.390 --> 0:15:18.170 you're going to say okay, I want to spend some 0:15:18.170 --> 0:15:20.460 time overseas. What is that? Is that 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:22.650 six months, is that a year? 0:15:22.840 --> 0:15:27.080 Um is that several years? And what is the comfort 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:31.080 level for each of you to spend that amount of time? 0:15:31.080 --> 0:15:33.970 Your partner may say, okay, this is a tremendous opportunity. 0:15:33.970 --> 0:15:36.610 I want to support you in this. You should go ahead, 0:15:36.610 --> 0:15:36.850 but 0:15:37.240 --> 0:15:41.150 I don't think we can be apart for three years 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:44.790 then it becomes well, would you be willing to do 0:15:44.790 --> 0:15:46.680 it for a shorter period of time? So that's why 0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:50.630 it's a joint decision, you should definitely talk things through, 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:54.420 but more generally, I mean I hope one day we 0:15:54.420 --> 0:15:58.660 will develop ourselves and Singapore. That is as 0:15:59.140 --> 0:16:03.030 a place where we no longer have to feel the 0:16:03.030 --> 0:16:03.510 need 0:16:04.140 --> 0:16:04.960 two 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:09.510 go overseas necessarily just to get good opportunities. So that 0:16:09.510 --> 0:16:12.130 was the case certainly when I was younger, if you 0:16:12.130 --> 0:16:16.160 wanted to be a professional economist in say the front 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:21.940 office of an investment bank, that was very challenging at 0:16:21.940 --> 0:16:24.250 the time when I first graduated. And so 0:16:24.340 --> 0:16:26.930 it was natural for me to pursue those opportunities abroad. 0:16:26.930 --> 0:16:30.040 But we have since developed as a financial center and 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:32.440 the wealth management center and that has meant that it's 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.290 become at least for my profession a lot easier to 0:16:35.290 --> 0:16:38.310 make that decision that you know, maybe the very best 0:16:38.310 --> 0:16:42.430 opportunities may still be in new york or London, but 0:16:42.440 --> 0:16:45.960 nevertheless we can hold our own. So the same for 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:48.570 the media landscape for you guys, if 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:52.150 we can make ourselves much more attractive, 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:57.560 media hub, creative arts hub, that itself will ensure that 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:02.150 we remain enticing enough to have here as a base. 0:17:02.160 --> 0:17:04.400 You might still want to spend some time abroad just 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:07.169 to gain experience gained exposure, 0:17:07.340 --> 0:17:11.330 but you don't feel that you have let something pass 0:17:11.330 --> 0:17:13.800 you by the way that my father had just because 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:14.450 you 0:17:14.540 --> 0:17:16.530 are based in Singapore all 0:17:16.530 --> 0:17:18.690 fair points and I think, you know, it's the kind 0:17:18.690 --> 0:17:20.149 of thing where you have to revisit every once in 0:17:20.150 --> 0:17:22.530 a while in a different phase of your life. It 0:17:22.530 --> 0:17:24.800 changes also like what you want to do, sometimes I 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:26.150 don't even know what I want to do like in 0:17:26.150 --> 0:17:29.010 my current phase of life, I still question that every 0:17:29.010 --> 0:17:31.280 once in a while. But on that note obviously, you know, 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:33.780 you touched on the long distance relationships, you touched on 0:17:33.780 --> 0:17:36.720 a lot of sacrifice and stuff like with the example 0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:37.359 of your debt to 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:41.189 what would you say was your biggest sacrifice, having to 0:17:41.190 --> 0:17:44.459 travel around for work juggling all this, would you be 0:17:44.460 --> 0:17:47.700 able to identify the biggest sacrifice you've had to make 0:17:47.710 --> 0:17:49.770 keeping in mind that there's a little bit of recency 0:17:49.770 --> 0:17:52.760 bias in all this, it's not so much a sacrifice 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:55.790 for myself, but it's a sacrifice that of course my 0:17:55.790 --> 0:17:58.899 family has had to make, which is that after having 0:17:58.910 --> 0:18:00.859 been elected it became 0:18:01.540 --> 0:18:04.659 such that a lot of my evenings could no longer 0:18:04.660 --> 0:18:08.460 be spent with my family. So and that could be 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:10.550 in just very 0:18:10.940 --> 0:18:14.359 what may seem like fairly minor things. So 0:18:14.940 --> 0:18:17.960 when my daughter was first born, we were all still 0:18:17.970 --> 0:18:20.970 in lockdown and so it was very easy to spend 0:18:20.980 --> 0:18:23.330 extended period of time. We went for walks every day. 0:18:23.330 --> 0:18:25.429 In fact everyone was going for walks every day if 0:18:25.430 --> 0:18:26.290 you recall because that's 0:18:26.290 --> 0:18:27.440 the only way 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:28.429 you could get out of the house. 0:18:28.590 --> 0:18:31.000 All the bicycles sold out everywhere. 0:18:31.000 --> 0:18:33.600 Exactly. So so we we spend an extended period of 0:18:33.600 --> 0:18:34.350 time and 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:35.670 during that phase 0:18:35.840 --> 0:18:38.510 I would read to her every night and of course 0:18:38.510 --> 0:18:40.750 she was too young to struggle on my arms. So 0:18:40.750 --> 0:18:42.360 she had no choice but to what 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:44.219 were you not, 0:18:44.220 --> 0:18:48.290 not, not exactly age appropriate stuff. So I was reading, 0:18:48.300 --> 0:18:50.109 you know, stuff that was meant for four or five 0:18:50.109 --> 0:18:52.470 year olds, but I didn't care. It was a way 0:18:52.470 --> 0:18:53.770 for me. It was like, 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:55.950 well every new word is a new word after all. 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:59.359