Speaker 1: This is a C. N. A podcast.
Speaker 1: The bargain between the global north and the South has
Speaker 1: to actually work. It's broken right now. It's not addressing
Speaker 1: the accelerated needs of people on the front line of
Speaker 1: climate stress.
Speaker 1: That's Sherry Rehman, Pakistan's climate change minister. Speaking with Sienna
Speaker 1: on the sidelines of the UN's Climate summit in Egypt,
Speaker 1: she's been on the offensive at these global climate talks
Speaker 1: demanding more financial help in the wake of devastating floods
Speaker 1: in her country.
Speaker 1: My name is Jack Board Ciena's climate change correspondent. And
Speaker 1: this is a special edition of the climate conversations brought
Speaker 1: to you from cop 27 in Sharm el Sheikh,
Speaker 1: 12 months on from Glasgow. And wow, what a year
Speaker 1: of devastating climate extremes the world's witnessed record breaking droughts
Speaker 1: in china, the US and europe in southeast asia Malaysia
Speaker 1: got slammed by floods and the Philippines by more deadly typhoons.
Speaker 1: And then of course Pakistan where a third of the
Speaker 1: country was underwater for wealthy countries. These events are major
Speaker 1: economic impediments,
Speaker 1: the developing world or the global south though, they're totally
Speaker 1: debilitating and now they want someone else to pay that
Speaker 1: someone being the countries that have historically caused climate change.
Speaker 1: I'm one of some 35,000 people who have come to
Speaker 1: the Egyptian desert to watch on as the world's leaders,
Speaker 1: businesses and bankers try to work out how exactly that
Speaker 1: might look
Speaker 1: From the get go loss and damage has been the
Speaker 1: hot topic at Cop 27. It was on the official
Speaker 1: agenda for the first time at any conference of the parties.
Speaker 1: But what is loss and damage and how might it
Speaker 1: affect the communities and people living on the climate front line?
Speaker 1: I started by chatting with CAssie Flynn, she's with the
Speaker 1: United Nations Development Program as a strategic advisor on climate change.
Speaker 1: She spent years working on climate policy and strategy with
Speaker 1: rich experience, working with the countries who are seeking this
Speaker 1: urgent financial assistance. I asked her why this was an
Speaker 1: important conversation to be having.
Speaker 2: Well, I think we've really entered a new chapter of
Speaker 2: the climate crisis and I even remember being in these
Speaker 2: negotiations not that long ago when loss and damage was
Speaker 2: theoretical concept. It was what happens when an island country
Speaker 2: can no longer sustain their territory if an island country
Speaker 2: goes underwater? What do you do? And it was something
Speaker 2: that was more academic in the thinking
Speaker 2: and now with all of these climate related disasters that
Speaker 2: we're seeing, whether it's the floods in Pakistan, whether it
Speaker 2: is coastal zones in island countries starting to face real
Speaker 2: challenges whether it is drought across food systems, we're seeing
Speaker 2: the climate impacts really hit places with an intensity that
Speaker 2: we're just not used to? And we have to ask
Speaker 2: ourselves this really hard question, which is what happen
Speaker 2: when something occurs that is irreversible. What happens when you're
Speaker 2: not going to get that coastline back? What happens when
Speaker 2: you're not going to get those food systems back and
Speaker 2: what do we do about it? And so I think
Speaker 2: now as countries are grappling with this new reality, it
Speaker 2: certainly has come forward in the overall discussions on climate change,
Speaker 1: Why is loss and damage such a contested issue?
Speaker 2: Well, when we talk about loss and damage, I think
Speaker 2: one of the big questions when you experience a loss
Speaker 2: is
Speaker 2: who's responsible for this? Who is responsible when we do
Speaker 2: face these awful catastrophes, these heartbreaking stories that we hear
Speaker 2: and whether it's in loss and damage world, we'll call
Speaker 2: it economic losses. So loss of goods and services, loss
Speaker 2: of productivity or non economic losses. What do you do
Speaker 2: when you start to lose a cultural identity? What do
Speaker 2: you do when you lose a huge set of very
Speaker 2: endangered species because of climate change? And being able to
Speaker 2: unpack this has become very, very difficult. And many countries
Speaker 2: who are on the front lines of loss and damage
Speaker 2: are the ones who are least responsible for the problem.
Speaker 2: Small island states, these developed countries, the ones are being
Speaker 2: hit so hard are ones that have not been the
Speaker 2: historic big emitters. And so it's only fair that many
Speaker 2: of these developing countries are sort of looking at the
Speaker 2: ones that have been these big emitters and say, hey,
Speaker 2: our reality is because of all of the pollution
Speaker 2: you put in the atmosphere. And so you've got to
Speaker 2: help us with this, You've got to help us deal
Speaker 2: with this crisis on our doorstep? Because in many ways
Speaker 2: this wouldn't have happened if you weren't releasing those emissions
Speaker 1: right now it seems that we are putting the options
Speaker 1: into different baskets, we have mitigation options, the adaptation option,
Speaker 1: then loss and damage, loss and damage. Obviously the most
Speaker 1: expensive of these three hats does that also make it
Speaker 1: then the most difficult?
Speaker 2: I think it's also blended together and the reality is
Speaker 2: that one country, one community, Yes, some really need their
Speaker 2: number one goal needs to be getting their emissions down.
Speaker 2: Others there on the front line of the crisis, they
Speaker 2: need to be focusing on adaptation. Others are experiencing huge,
Speaker 2: huge losses and crises and focusing on loss and damage,
Speaker 2: but
Speaker 2: you really can't have one without the other. And we
Speaker 2: have to be thinking about these all together and I
Speaker 2: think there does need to be special consideration for what
Speaker 2: loss and damage costs. It's one thing to start putting
Speaker 2: up early warning systems or seawalls or infrastructure to be
Speaker 2: able to protect communities. But
Speaker 2: What do you do when you just can't go back
Speaker 2: to that place when that is just not a safe
Speaker 2: place to live anymore. I was having a conversation with
Speaker 2: a delegate from a Caribbean country once who was talking
Speaker 2: about how I feel like they're in this horrible cycle
Speaker 2: where a category five storm comes and wipes out their
Speaker 2: airport and then they have to go into an immense
Speaker 2: amount of debt to be able to reconstruct that airport
Speaker 2: And then a couple years later, another category five storm
Speaker 2: comes and wipes out the airport again and they are
Speaker 2: back to Square one.
Speaker 1: You also kind of touched on the intangible loss of
Speaker 1: culture of place. How do we go about compensating or
Speaker 1: assisting financially communities who suffer losses like
Speaker 2: that was something that I have been thinking a lot
Speaker 2: about in
Speaker 2: when we talk about loss and damage. We are also
Speaker 2: talking about an immense amount of heartbreak
Speaker 2: to get up and to have to move your community
Speaker 2: to lose the place. You know, maybe there was a
Speaker 2: tree that you loved that. You would always sit below
Speaker 2: and you don't have that anymore. You know, I grew
Speaker 2: up near the ocean and to see the coastline change
Speaker 2: in a way that it seems so rapid and so overwhelming.
Speaker 2: I think that there's so much a part of this
Speaker 2: that is about our sort of hearts collectively breaking over this.
Speaker 2: And certainly the loss of art, the loss of music,
Speaker 2: the loss of cultural traditions have to be a key
Speaker 2: part of this conversation
Speaker 2: because it's not as easy as people just picking up
Speaker 2: and moving somewhere else. You are tied to your place.
Speaker 2: You are tied to your community in that place. And
Speaker 2: we have to be thinking about this and being able
Speaker 2: to make accommodations for those types of really devastating and
Speaker 2: heartbreaking losses.
Speaker 1: Loss comes in different forms. Just ask the Maldives.
Speaker 1: The island nation isn't often on the news after hugely
Speaker 1: devastating events. Their climate story is unfolding slowly, but no
Speaker 1: less severely. Environment Minister Amarnath Shawna is an energetic voice
Speaker 1: for her country. I caught up with her in the
Speaker 1: middle of her typically hectic cop schedule among the noise
Speaker 1: and crowds of the summit.
Speaker 1: Why is this an important moment in the climate change
Speaker 1: discussion We have cop every year, specifically this year, Maldives
Speaker 1: has been advocating on climate change for the past couple
Speaker 1: of decades and one of the issues that we have
Speaker 1: been highlighting for decades is the issue of loss endowment.
Speaker 1: That has not gained any traction for all these years.
Speaker 1: But small island states with a lot of work has
Speaker 1: managed to mobilize interest from political and non political actors
Speaker 1: on this issue.
Speaker 1: And this cop, one of the most focused issues for
Speaker 1: discussion is funding for loss and damage. So when we're
Speaker 1: talking about loss and damage people like to frame it
Speaker 1: as where is the money, who is going to pay?
Speaker 1: Is that the way you see it? No, it's not
Speaker 1: just about the money, loss and damage is a complex issue.
Speaker 1: The impacts of climate change is on two and one
Speaker 1: is the rapid impacts of climate change where most of
Speaker 1: our island nations in the caribbean
Speaker 1: for instance, experience every year with hurricanes. But the second
Speaker 1: part is countries like ours with slow onset impacts of
Speaker 1: climate change, where gradual degradation of reef ecosystem and ocean
Speaker 1: resources has an impact on our fisheries, on our tourism,
Speaker 1: on all the resources that we depend on for economic
Speaker 1: development as well. So it's a complex issue and I
Speaker 1: don't think that it's
Speaker 1: just about the money with both slow onset impacts as
Speaker 1: well as the rapid impacts of climate change. Both of
Speaker 1: these things do one thing, it destabilizes countries, it destabilizes
Speaker 1: economies and it contributes to ongoing conflicts as well. So
Speaker 1: it's a complex issue which is not just about funding
Speaker 1: and the least we can do is help us continue
Speaker 1: to live a healthy life in the Maldives
Speaker 1: where our country's economic and political systems will be stable
Speaker 1: when we are hit every year by floods and hurricanes
Speaker 1: and our islands are rapidly eroding that shrinks our physical
Speaker 1: space and that takes away money that we would otherwise
Speaker 1: be spending on education and health care and other socio
Speaker 1: economic problems that we have. We're not just a country
Speaker 1: that is affected by climate change, we have
Speaker 1: Of other development priorities as well. Maldives has managed to
Speaker 1: become a middle-income country in Spain of 30 to 40
Speaker 1: years and that lifted us from poverty. We may not
Speaker 1: be able to maintain this level of standard of living.
Speaker 1: If every year we have to spend and divert funds
Speaker 1: from education and health care and social protection systems to
Speaker 1: disaster with reductions. And
Speaker 1: do you feel a shift in momentum. Do you feel
Speaker 1: there is progress actually being made an acknowledgement taking responsibility? Absolutely.
Speaker 1: The fact that we did not have a massive agenda
Speaker 1: fight in the beginning of this cop I think is
Speaker 1: a display of goodwill from all parties, including the developed countries,
Speaker 1: recognizing that this is a genuine issue. No longer something
Speaker 1: that they can put it in the back, you must
Speaker 1: be exhausted
Speaker 1: having to constantly bring up these issues again and again.
Speaker 1: How do you stay energized? How else do you do it?
Speaker 1: We are in a globalized society and we have to
Speaker 1: work with international systems and we have to work to
Speaker 1: establish these international systems that are equitable, accessible and predictable
Speaker 1: for all parties that are affected by climate change. So
Speaker 1: we have to work with international systems no matter how
Speaker 1: frustrating it is,
Speaker 1: it may, we may not be there in time to
Speaker 1: save lives.
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Stephen and I host the new season of
Speaker 1: our podcast heart of the matter, join me in getting
Speaker 1: right to the heart of the headlines as we speak
Speaker 1: with experts and newsmakers to delve deep into the most
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Speaker 1: despite the widespread climate impacts you see and feel across
Speaker 1: Southeast Asia, not all Asean countries are vocal about loss
Speaker 1: and damage, but leading the charge is the Philippines, Typhoons
Speaker 1: have always been a way of life there, but they're
Speaker 1: starting to be more regular and more powerful leaving communities
Speaker 1: in what feels like a helpless cycle.
Speaker 1: I spoke to a couple of Philippine climate justice advocates
Speaker 1: in Sharm el Sheikh, one who has attended 23 cops already,
Speaker 1: the other just a handful so far.
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm marina love although I am an international climate
Speaker 1: justice advocate from the Philippines and I am here at
Speaker 1: club to be part of the conversation, climate justice on
Speaker 1: loss and damage and I am here to represent my community,
Speaker 1: the survivors of super different I act and to make
Speaker 1: sure that the stories are out there and the stories
Speaker 1: are being amplified back for it's like growing up, I
Speaker 1: have been really used to typhoons and I thought that
Speaker 1: influence is already a part of life.
Speaker 1: I even thought that there was everywhere just because it
Speaker 1: is so normal in our place that I grew up
Speaker 1: being used to fleeing and evacuating. I grew up knocking
Speaker 1: on doors of our neighbors to let us in and
Speaker 1: the rest of the mental the stone passes. I grew
Speaker 1: up always thinking and doubting if we will have even
Speaker 1: a house after
Speaker 1: A typhoon in the Philippines, we experienced an average of
Speaker 1: 30 day funds per year and imagine revolting and rebelled
Speaker 1: at times. I just feel like these tables of climatic disaster,
Speaker 1: they are making the people poor because a lot of
Speaker 1: people in developing countries like the Philippines, they don't have
Speaker 1: even the thought on saving how much more having the
Speaker 1: money to rebuild and revealed all over again. So
Speaker 1: I think it is counterproductive because of climatic disasters, a
Speaker 1: lot of people are migrating to other places. I know
Speaker 1: my beer so migrated to other places because they don't
Speaker 1: have livelihood anymore. In our island there is no fish
Speaker 1: anymore in our island, you cannot form anymore in our
Speaker 1: island because the weather is so not predictable anymore. So
Speaker 1: they just go to other places because they're mine.
Speaker 1: I imagine my friends who have lost their loved ones,
Speaker 1: so I've lost their parents, I've lost all of their
Speaker 1: family members. Those are, you can include the price on
Speaker 1: the grief and the laws that we have suffered
Speaker 1: and money is just I think a band aid solution
Speaker 1: the owner takes we need to have a systemic change.
Speaker 1: So people will not be losing a lot of love
Speaker 1: to point. I'm Tony Lavinia, associate Director for Climate Policy
Speaker 1: and International Relations of the Manila Observatory.
Speaker 1: I'm here because we work on global climate change issues
Speaker 1: and particularly trying to influence the negotiations for a more
Speaker 1: ambitious climate justice outcome
Speaker 1: That includes mitigation, invitation loss and damage, which are the
Speaker 1: three pillars I think of action, so loss and damage
Speaker 1: on the agenda officially for the first time in 27
Speaker 1: why is that important? And what kind of outcomes not
Speaker 1: just at the conference, but overcoming years, just having the
Speaker 1: conversation now, actually talking to
Speaker 1: what we want is that when a place like say
Speaker 1: island in the Philippines city in the Philippines community in
Speaker 1: the Philippines or elsewhere in the world is hit by
Speaker 1: an extreme event like a storm or drought or even low,
Speaker 1: slow onset events, but clearly loss of lives and damage
Speaker 1: to property infrastructure. The economy happens. We want
Speaker 1: funding to immediately be available to restore people and places
Speaker 1: to where we were before the event happened
Speaker 1: because without a loss and damage intervention,
Speaker 1: you can't expect them to mitigate climate change, you can't
Speaker 1: expect them to adapt to climate change. What's going to
Speaker 1: happen is there's going to be in this limbo world
Speaker 1: where they can't do anything about climate change anymore because
Speaker 1: the ability to do so has been taken away from them.
Speaker 1: So the idea is to restore them to the place
Speaker 1: where they can actually then actively do something about climate
Speaker 1: change again. Talk to me about the cycles that people
Speaker 1: in the Philippines
Speaker 1: in many other parts of the world go through as
Speaker 1: they already start to feel the impacts of climate disasters.
Speaker 1: Year after year. Last week we had a typhoon that
Speaker 1: affected the whole country or you can have a series
Speaker 1: of typhoons like four or 51 after another, hitting several
Speaker 1: places at the same time and six months after that happens,
Speaker 1: another place set of places, the same places could get hit,
Speaker 1: they still haven't even recovered
Speaker 1: And that's because there is no funding available for that
Speaker 1: the most, you have humanitarian assistance that comes out of
Speaker 1: good will, which is good, but never enough to deal
Speaker 1: with the problem one is either a fund facility dedicated
Speaker 1: to loss and damage because it's different from mitigation, it's
Speaker 1: different from adaptation and the eternal optimist. I've been doing
Speaker 1: this for 30 years, this is my 23rd conference of
Speaker 1: the parties.
Speaker 1: I know it's challenging, but I don't lose hope among
Speaker 1: others because I've also helped enable a new generation of
Speaker 1: activists of experts of negotiators that are actually doing the
Speaker 1: work here. So we'll get lots of damage done. I'm
Speaker 1: absolutely certain about that. It could take a while, but
Speaker 1: I'm so absolutely certain about
Speaker 2: that
Speaker 1: cop is a strange beast. It attracts emotion and it's
Speaker 1: tense and stressful. That's unsurprising. Given what's at stake this
Speaker 1: time in Egypt things have been a little chaotic, but
Speaker 1: talking to most people involved, they still think it's the
Speaker 1: best mechanism to actually come up with solutions to existential
Speaker 1: questions about the future of the planet.
Speaker 1: Not everyone agrees. Greta thunberg is one for example, she
Speaker 1: thinks this is just more greenwashing
Speaker 1: the theme of this cop was implementation actually getting things
Speaker 1: done to shift the needle on global temperatures and carbon
Speaker 1: emissions for me. That's going to happen when everyone packs
Speaker 1: and goes home.
Speaker 1: Hopefully with more open minds and critically open wallets,
Speaker 1: this has been Jack board, Thank you for listening to
Speaker 1: this special episode of the climate conversations. It's back to
Speaker 1: regular programming and host. Next week. The team behind this
Speaker 1: podcast are Christina, robert, Jacqueline chan, daniel, lee, Joanne chan
Speaker 1: and Tiffany Young.