WEBVTT - Should the rich pay for the climate devastation in poorer countries? | EP 19

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<v Speaker 1>This is a C. N. A podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>The bargain between the global north and the South has

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<v Speaker 1>to actually work. It's broken right now. It's not addressing

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<v Speaker 1>the accelerated needs of people on the front line of

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<v Speaker 1>climate stress.

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<v Speaker 1>That's Sherry Rehman, Pakistan's climate change minister. Speaking with Sienna

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<v Speaker 1>on the sidelines of the UN's Climate summit in Egypt,

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<v Speaker 1>she's been on the offensive at these global climate talks

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<v Speaker 1>demanding more financial help in the wake of devastating floods

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<v Speaker 1>in her country.

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<v Speaker 1>My name is Jack Board Ciena's climate change correspondent. And

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<v Speaker 1>this is a special edition of the climate conversations brought

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<v Speaker 1>to you from cop 27 in Sharm el Sheikh,

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<v Speaker 1>12 months on from Glasgow. And wow, what a year

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<v Speaker 1>of devastating climate extremes the world's witnessed record breaking droughts

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<v Speaker 1>in china, the US and europe in southeast asia Malaysia

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<v Speaker 1>got slammed by floods and the Philippines by more deadly typhoons.

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<v Speaker 1>And then of course Pakistan where a third of the

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<v Speaker 1>country was underwater for wealthy countries. These events are major

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<v Speaker 1>economic impediments,

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<v Speaker 1>the developing world or the global south though, they're totally

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<v Speaker 1>debilitating and now they want someone else to pay that

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<v Speaker 1>someone being the countries that have historically caused climate change.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm one of some 35,000 people who have come to

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<v Speaker 1>the Egyptian desert to watch on as the world's leaders,

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<v Speaker 1>businesses and bankers try to work out how exactly that

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<v Speaker 1>might look

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<v Speaker 1>From the get go loss and damage has been the

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<v Speaker 1>hot topic at Cop 27. It was on the official

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<v Speaker 1>agenda for the first time at any conference of the parties.

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<v Speaker 1>But what is loss and damage and how might it

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<v Speaker 1>affect the communities and people living on the climate front line?

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<v Speaker 1>I started by chatting with CAssie Flynn, she's with the

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<v Speaker 1>United Nations Development Program as a strategic advisor on climate change.

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<v Speaker 1>She spent years working on climate policy and strategy with

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<v Speaker 1>rich experience, working with the countries who are seeking this

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<v Speaker 1>urgent financial assistance. I asked her why this was an

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<v Speaker 1>important conversation to be having.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think we've really entered a new chapter of

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<v Speaker 2>the climate crisis and I even remember being in these

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<v Speaker 2>negotiations not that long ago when loss and damage was

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<v Speaker 2>theoretical concept. It was what happens when an island country

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<v Speaker 2>can no longer sustain their territory if an island country

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<v Speaker 2>goes underwater? What do you do? And it was something

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<v Speaker 2>that was more academic in the thinking

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<v Speaker 2>and now with all of these climate related disasters that

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<v Speaker 2>we're seeing, whether it's the floods in Pakistan, whether it

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<v Speaker 2>is coastal zones in island countries starting to face real

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<v Speaker 2>challenges whether it is drought across food systems, we're seeing

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<v Speaker 2>the climate impacts really hit places with an intensity that

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<v Speaker 2>we're just not used to? And we have to ask

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<v Speaker 2>ourselves this really hard question, which is what happen

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<v Speaker 2>when something occurs that is irreversible. What happens when you're

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<v Speaker 2>not going to get that coastline back? What happens when

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<v Speaker 2>you're not going to get those food systems back and

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<v Speaker 2>what do we do about it? And so I think

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<v Speaker 2>now as countries are grappling with this new reality, it

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<v Speaker 2>certainly has come forward in the overall discussions on climate change,

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<v Speaker 1>Why is loss and damage such a contested issue?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, when we talk about loss and damage, I think

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<v Speaker 2>one of the big questions when you experience a loss

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<v Speaker 2>is

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<v Speaker 2>who's responsible for this? Who is responsible when we do

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<v Speaker 2>face these awful catastrophes, these heartbreaking stories that we hear

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<v Speaker 2>and whether it's in loss and damage world, we'll call

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<v Speaker 2>it economic losses. So loss of goods and services, loss

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<v Speaker 2>of productivity or non economic losses. What do you do

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<v Speaker 2>when you start to lose a cultural identity? What do

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<v Speaker 2>you do when you lose a huge set of very

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<v Speaker 2>endangered species because of climate change? And being able to

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<v Speaker 2>unpack this has become very, very difficult. And many countries

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<v Speaker 2>who are on the front lines of loss and damage

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<v Speaker 2>are the ones who are least responsible for the problem.

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<v Speaker 2>Small island states, these developed countries, the ones are being

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<v Speaker 2>hit so hard are ones that have not been the

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<v Speaker 2>historic big emitters. And so it's only fair that many

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<v Speaker 2>of these developing countries are sort of looking at the

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<v Speaker 2>ones that have been these big emitters and say, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>our reality is because of all of the pollution

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<v Speaker 2>you put in the atmosphere. And so you've got to

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<v Speaker 2>help us with this, You've got to help us deal

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<v Speaker 2>with this crisis on our doorstep? Because in many ways

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<v Speaker 2>this wouldn't have happened if you weren't releasing those emissions

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<v Speaker 1>right now it seems that we are putting the options

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<v Speaker 1>into different baskets, we have mitigation options, the adaptation option,

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<v Speaker 1>then loss and damage, loss and damage. Obviously the most

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<v Speaker 1>expensive of these three hats does that also make it

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<v Speaker 1>then the most difficult?

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's also blended together and the reality is

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<v Speaker 2>that one country, one community, Yes, some really need their

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<v Speaker 2>number one goal needs to be getting their emissions down.

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<v Speaker 2>Others there on the front line of the crisis, they

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<v Speaker 2>need to be focusing on adaptation. Others are experiencing huge,

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<v Speaker 2>huge losses and crises and focusing on loss and damage,

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<v Speaker 2>but

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<v Speaker 2>you really can't have one without the other. And we

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<v Speaker 2>have to be thinking about these all together and I

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<v Speaker 2>think there does need to be special consideration for what

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<v Speaker 2>loss and damage costs. It's one thing to start putting

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<v Speaker 2>up early warning systems or seawalls or infrastructure to be

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<v Speaker 2>able to protect communities. But

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<v Speaker 2>What do you do when you just can't go back

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<v Speaker 2>to that place when that is just not a safe

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<v Speaker 2>place to live anymore. I was having a conversation with

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<v Speaker 2>a delegate from a Caribbean country once who was talking

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<v Speaker 2>about how I feel like they're in this horrible cycle

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<v Speaker 2>where a category five storm comes and wipes out their

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<v Speaker 2>airport and then they have to go into an immense

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<v Speaker 2>amount of debt to be able to reconstruct that airport

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<v Speaker 2>And then a couple years later, another category five storm

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<v Speaker 2>comes and wipes out the airport again and they are

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<v Speaker 2>back to Square one.

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<v Speaker 1>You also kind of touched on the intangible loss of

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<v Speaker 1>culture of place. How do we go about compensating or

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<v Speaker 1>assisting financially communities who suffer losses like

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<v Speaker 2>that was something that I have been thinking a lot

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<v Speaker 2>about in

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<v Speaker 2>when we talk about loss and damage. We are also

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<v Speaker 2>talking about an immense amount of heartbreak

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<v Speaker 2>to get up and to have to move your community

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<v Speaker 2>to lose the place. You know, maybe there was a

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<v Speaker 2>tree that you loved that. You would always sit below

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<v Speaker 2>and you don't have that anymore. You know, I grew

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<v Speaker 2>up near the ocean and to see the coastline change

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<v Speaker 2>in a way that it seems so rapid and so overwhelming.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that there's so much a part of this

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<v Speaker 2>that is about our sort of hearts collectively breaking over this.

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<v Speaker 2>And certainly the loss of art, the loss of music,

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<v Speaker 2>the loss of cultural traditions have to be a key

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<v Speaker 2>part of this conversation

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<v Speaker 2>because it's not as easy as people just picking up

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<v Speaker 2>and moving somewhere else. You are tied to your place.

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<v Speaker 2>You are tied to your community in that place. And

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<v Speaker 2>we have to be thinking about this and being able

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<v Speaker 2>to make accommodations for those types of really devastating and

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<v Speaker 2>heartbreaking losses.

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<v Speaker 1>Loss comes in different forms. Just ask the Maldives.

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<v Speaker 1>The island nation isn't often on the news after hugely

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<v Speaker 1>devastating events. Their climate story is unfolding slowly, but no

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<v Speaker 1>less severely. Environment Minister Amarnath Shawna is an energetic voice

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<v Speaker 1>for her country. I caught up with her in the

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<v Speaker 1>middle of her typically hectic cop schedule among the noise

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<v Speaker 1>and crowds of the summit.

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<v Speaker 1>Why is this an important moment in the climate change

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<v Speaker 1>discussion We have cop every year, specifically this year, Maldives

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<v Speaker 1>has been advocating on climate change for the past couple

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<v Speaker 1>of decades and one of the issues that we have

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<v Speaker 1>been highlighting for decades is the issue of loss endowment.

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<v Speaker 1>That has not gained any traction for all these years.

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<v Speaker 1>But small island states with a lot of work has

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<v Speaker 1>managed to mobilize interest from political and non political actors

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<v Speaker 1>on this issue.

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<v Speaker 1>And this cop, one of the most focused issues for

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<v Speaker 1>discussion is funding for loss and damage. So when we're

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<v Speaker 1>talking about loss and damage people like to frame it

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<v Speaker 1>as where is the money, who is going to pay?

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<v Speaker 1>Is that the way you see it? No, it's not

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<v Speaker 1>just about the money, loss and damage is a complex issue.

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<v Speaker 1>The impacts of climate change is on two and one

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<v Speaker 1>is the rapid impacts of climate change where most of

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<v Speaker 1>our island nations in the caribbean

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<v Speaker 1>for instance, experience every year with hurricanes. But the second

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<v Speaker 1>part is countries like ours with slow onset impacts of

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<v Speaker 1>climate change, where gradual degradation of reef ecosystem and ocean

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<v Speaker 1>resources has an impact on our fisheries, on our tourism,

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<v Speaker 1>on all the resources that we depend on for economic

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<v Speaker 1>development as well. So it's a complex issue and I

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<v Speaker 1>don't think that it's

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<v Speaker 1>just about the money with both slow onset impacts as

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<v Speaker 1>well as the rapid impacts of climate change. Both of

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<v Speaker 1>these things do one thing, it destabilizes countries, it destabilizes

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<v Speaker 1>economies and it contributes to ongoing conflicts as well. So

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<v Speaker 1>it's a complex issue which is not just about funding

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<v Speaker 1>and the least we can do is help us continue

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<v Speaker 1>to live a healthy life in the Maldives

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<v Speaker 1>where our country's economic and political systems will be stable

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<v Speaker 1>when we are hit every year by floods and hurricanes

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<v Speaker 1>and our islands are rapidly eroding that shrinks our physical

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<v Speaker 1>space and that takes away money that we would otherwise

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<v Speaker 1>be spending on education and health care and other socio

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<v Speaker 1>economic problems that we have. We're not just a country

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<v Speaker 1>that is affected by climate change, we have

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<v Speaker 1>Of other development priorities as well. Maldives has managed to

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<v Speaker 1>become a middle-income country in Spain of 30 to 40

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<v Speaker 1>years and that lifted us from poverty. We may not

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<v Speaker 1>be able to maintain this level of standard of living.

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<v Speaker 1>If every year we have to spend and divert funds

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<v Speaker 1>from education and health care and social protection systems to

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<v Speaker 1>disaster with reductions. And

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<v Speaker 1>do you feel a shift in momentum. Do you feel

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<v Speaker 1>there is progress actually being made an acknowledgement taking responsibility? Absolutely.

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<v Speaker 1>The fact that we did not have a massive agenda

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<v Speaker 1>fight in the beginning of this cop I think is

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<v Speaker 1>a display of goodwill from all parties, including the developed countries,

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<v Speaker 1>recognizing that this is a genuine issue. No longer something

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<v Speaker 1>that they can put it in the back, you must

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<v Speaker 1>be exhausted

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<v Speaker 1>having to constantly bring up these issues again and again.

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<v Speaker 1>How do you stay energized? How else do you do it?

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<v Speaker 1>We are in a globalized society and we have to

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<v Speaker 1>work with international systems and we have to work to

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<v Speaker 1>establish these international systems that are equitable, accessible and predictable

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<v Speaker 1>for all parties that are affected by climate change. So

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<v Speaker 1>we have to work with international systems no matter how

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<v Speaker 1>frustrating it is,

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<v Speaker 1>it may, we may not be there in time to

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<v Speaker 1>save lives.

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, I'm Stephen and I host the new season of

0:12:19.700 --> 0:12:22.980
<v Speaker 1>our podcast heart of the matter, join me in getting

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<v Speaker 1>right to the heart of the headlines as we speak

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<v Speaker 1>with experts and newsmakers to delve deep into the most

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<v Speaker 1>talked about news developments, look out for our episodes wherever

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<v Speaker 1>you get your podcasts

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<v Speaker 1>despite the widespread climate impacts you see and feel across

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<v Speaker 1>Southeast Asia, not all Asean countries are vocal about loss

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<v Speaker 1>and damage, but leading the charge is the Philippines, Typhoons

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<v Speaker 1>have always been a way of life there, but they're

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<v Speaker 1>starting to be more regular and more powerful leaving communities

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<v Speaker 1>in what feels like a helpless cycle.

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<v Speaker 1>I spoke to a couple of Philippine climate justice advocates

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<v Speaker 1>in Sharm el Sheikh, one who has attended 23 cops already,

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<v Speaker 1>the other just a handful so far.

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<v Speaker 1>Hi, I'm marina love although I am an international climate

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<v Speaker 1>justice advocate from the Philippines and I am here at

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<v Speaker 1>club to be part of the conversation, climate justice on

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<v Speaker 1>loss and damage and I am here to represent my community,

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<v Speaker 1>the survivors of super different I act and to make

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<v Speaker 1>sure that the stories are out there and the stories

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<v Speaker 1>are being amplified back for it's like growing up, I

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<v Speaker 1>have been really used to typhoons and I thought that

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<v Speaker 1>influence is already a part of life.

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<v Speaker 1>I even thought that there was everywhere just because it

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<v Speaker 1>is so normal in our place that I grew up

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<v Speaker 1>being used to fleeing and evacuating. I grew up knocking

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<v Speaker 1>on doors of our neighbors to let us in and

0:14:00.170 --> 0:14:03.710
<v Speaker 1>the rest of the mental the stone passes. I grew

0:14:03.710 --> 0:14:08.100
<v Speaker 1>up always thinking and doubting if we will have even

0:14:08.110 --> 0:14:10.080
<v Speaker 1>a house after

0:14:10.300 --> 0:14:13.740
<v Speaker 1>A typhoon in the Philippines, we experienced an average of

0:14:13.740 --> 0:14:18.040
<v Speaker 1>30 day funds per year and imagine revolting and rebelled

0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:23.619
<v Speaker 1>at times. I just feel like these tables of climatic disaster,

0:14:23.620 --> 0:14:26.700
<v Speaker 1>they are making the people poor because a lot of

0:14:26.710 --> 0:14:29.450
<v Speaker 1>people in developing countries like the Philippines, they don't have

0:14:29.460 --> 0:14:33.040
<v Speaker 1>even the thought on saving how much more having the

0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:36.930
<v Speaker 1>money to rebuild and revealed all over again. So

0:14:36.940 --> 0:14:41.450
<v Speaker 1>I think it is counterproductive because of climatic disasters, a

0:14:41.450 --> 0:14:43.970
<v Speaker 1>lot of people are migrating to other places. I know

0:14:43.970 --> 0:14:47.110
<v Speaker 1>my beer so migrated to other places because they don't

0:14:47.110 --> 0:14:50.900
<v Speaker 1>have livelihood anymore. In our island there is no fish

0:14:50.910 --> 0:14:54.570
<v Speaker 1>anymore in our island, you cannot form anymore in our

0:14:54.570 --> 0:15:00.290
<v Speaker 1>island because the weather is so not predictable anymore. So

0:15:00.290 --> 0:15:02.950
<v Speaker 1>they just go to other places because they're mine.

0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:07.010
<v Speaker 1>I imagine my friends who have lost their loved ones,

0:15:07.010 --> 0:15:09.970
<v Speaker 1>so I've lost their parents, I've lost all of their

0:15:09.970 --> 0:15:13.550
<v Speaker 1>family members. Those are, you can include the price on

0:15:13.550 --> 0:15:17.470
<v Speaker 1>the grief and the laws that we have suffered

0:15:17.940 --> 0:15:21.860
<v Speaker 1>and money is just I think a band aid solution

0:15:21.870 --> 0:15:26.010
<v Speaker 1>the owner takes we need to have a systemic change.

0:15:26.020 --> 0:15:28.680
<v Speaker 1>So people will not be losing a lot of love

0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:34.170
<v Speaker 1>to point. I'm Tony Lavinia, associate Director for Climate Policy

0:15:34.340 --> 0:15:37.520
<v Speaker 1>and International Relations of the Manila Observatory.

0:15:37.750 --> 0:15:41.859
<v Speaker 1>I'm here because we work on global climate change issues

0:15:41.860 --> 0:15:46.780
<v Speaker 1>and particularly trying to influence the negotiations for a more

0:15:46.780 --> 0:15:48.820
<v Speaker 1>ambitious climate justice outcome

0:15:49.170 --> 0:15:53.270
<v Speaker 1>That includes mitigation, invitation loss and damage, which are the

0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:56.740
<v Speaker 1>three pillars I think of action, so loss and damage

0:15:56.750 --> 0:16:01.070
<v Speaker 1>on the agenda officially for the first time in 27

0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:05.750
<v Speaker 1>why is that important? And what kind of outcomes not

0:16:05.750 --> 0:16:09.090
<v Speaker 1>just at the conference, but overcoming years, just having the

0:16:09.090 --> 0:16:11.430
<v Speaker 1>conversation now, actually talking to

0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:16.880
<v Speaker 1>what we want is that when a place like say

0:16:16.890 --> 0:16:20.880
<v Speaker 1>island in the Philippines city in the Philippines community in

0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:23.560
<v Speaker 1>the Philippines or elsewhere in the world is hit by

0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:27.860
<v Speaker 1>an extreme event like a storm or drought or even low,

0:16:27.870 --> 0:16:33.150
<v Speaker 1>slow onset events, but clearly loss of lives and damage

0:16:33.150 --> 0:16:38.200
<v Speaker 1>to property infrastructure. The economy happens. We want

0:16:38.700 --> 0:16:45.560
<v Speaker 1>funding to immediately be available to restore people and places

0:16:45.570 --> 0:16:48.350
<v Speaker 1>to where we were before the event happened

0:16:48.980 --> 0:16:53.330
<v Speaker 1>because without a loss and damage intervention,

0:16:54.700 --> 0:16:57.450
<v Speaker 1>you can't expect them to mitigate climate change, you can't

0:16:57.450 --> 0:17:00.220
<v Speaker 1>expect them to adapt to climate change. What's going to

0:17:00.220 --> 0:17:02.730
<v Speaker 1>happen is there's going to be in this limbo world

0:17:02.740 --> 0:17:06.270
<v Speaker 1>where they can't do anything about climate change anymore because

0:17:06.270 --> 0:17:08.530
<v Speaker 1>the ability to do so has been taken away from them.

0:17:08.540 --> 0:17:10.990
<v Speaker 1>So the idea is to restore them to the place

0:17:10.990 --> 0:17:16.500
<v Speaker 1>where they can actually then actively do something about climate

0:17:16.500 --> 0:17:20.210
<v Speaker 1>change again. Talk to me about the cycles that people

0:17:20.210 --> 0:17:20.950
<v Speaker 1>in the Philippines

0:17:20.970 --> 0:17:23.510
<v Speaker 1>in many other parts of the world go through as

0:17:23.510 --> 0:17:27.490
<v Speaker 1>they already start to feel the impacts of climate disasters.

0:17:27.500 --> 0:17:30.200
<v Speaker 1>Year after year. Last week we had a typhoon that

0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:32.780
<v Speaker 1>affected the whole country or you can have a series

0:17:32.780 --> 0:17:37.750
<v Speaker 1>of typhoons like four or 51 after another, hitting several

0:17:37.750 --> 0:17:41.390
<v Speaker 1>places at the same time and six months after that happens,

0:17:41.390 --> 0:17:45.110
<v Speaker 1>another place set of places, the same places could get hit,

0:17:45.140 --> 0:17:47.100
<v Speaker 1>they still haven't even recovered

0:17:47.410 --> 0:17:50.230
<v Speaker 1>And that's because there is no funding available for that

0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:53.510
<v Speaker 1>the most, you have humanitarian assistance that comes out of

0:17:53.520 --> 0:17:56.510
<v Speaker 1>good will, which is good, but never enough to deal

0:17:56.510 --> 0:18:01.480
<v Speaker 1>with the problem one is either a fund facility dedicated

0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:05.200
<v Speaker 1>to loss and damage because it's different from mitigation, it's

0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:10.280
<v Speaker 1>different from adaptation and the eternal optimist. I've been doing

0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:14.419
<v Speaker 1>this for 30 years, this is my 23rd conference of

0:18:14.420 --> 0:18:15.440
<v Speaker 1>the parties.

0:18:15.820 --> 0:18:19.260
<v Speaker 1>I know it's challenging, but I don't lose hope among

0:18:19.260 --> 0:18:23.570
<v Speaker 1>others because I've also helped enable a new generation of

0:18:23.570 --> 0:18:29.550
<v Speaker 1>activists of experts of negotiators that are actually doing the

0:18:29.550 --> 0:18:33.020
<v Speaker 1>work here. So we'll get lots of damage done. I'm

0:18:33.030 --> 0:18:36.130
<v Speaker 1>absolutely certain about that. It could take a while, but

0:18:36.130 --> 0:18:37.490
<v Speaker 1>I'm so absolutely certain about

0:18:37.500 --> 0:18:37.950
<v Speaker 2>that

0:18:39.730 --> 0:18:43.740
<v Speaker 1>cop is a strange beast. It attracts emotion and it's

0:18:43.740 --> 0:18:49.159
<v Speaker 1>tense and stressful. That's unsurprising. Given what's at stake this

0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:53.320
<v Speaker 1>time in Egypt things have been a little chaotic, but

0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:56.940
<v Speaker 1>talking to most people involved, they still think it's the

0:18:56.940 --> 0:19:01.550
<v Speaker 1>best mechanism to actually come up with solutions to existential

0:19:01.550 --> 0:19:03.760
<v Speaker 1>questions about the future of the planet.

0:19:04.100 --> 0:19:08.290
<v Speaker 1>Not everyone agrees. Greta thunberg is one for example, she

0:19:08.290 --> 0:19:10.810
<v Speaker 1>thinks this is just more greenwashing

0:19:11.460 --> 0:19:15.800
<v Speaker 1>the theme of this cop was implementation actually getting things

0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:19.520
<v Speaker 1>done to shift the needle on global temperatures and carbon

0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:23.650
<v Speaker 1>emissions for me. That's going to happen when everyone packs

0:19:23.660 --> 0:19:24.659
<v Speaker 1>and goes home.

0:19:25.460 --> 0:19:29.980
<v Speaker 1>Hopefully with more open minds and critically open wallets,

0:19:31.070 --> 0:19:33.389
<v Speaker 1>this has been Jack board, Thank you for listening to

0:19:33.390 --> 0:19:37.260
<v Speaker 1>this special episode of the climate conversations. It's back to

0:19:37.260 --> 0:19:41.440
<v Speaker 1>regular programming and host. Next week. The team behind this

0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:46.840
<v Speaker 1>podcast are Christina, robert, Jacqueline chan, daniel, lee, Joanne chan

0:19:46.850 --> 0:19:47.970
<v Speaker 1>and Tiffany Young.