1 00:00:00,270 --> 00:00:02,599 Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast. 2 00:00:04,860 --> 00:00:06,809 Speaker 1: So, hi guys. It's Steven here and welcome back to 3 00:00:06,820 --> 00:00:09,699 Speaker 1: another episode of Heart of The Matter. Now, let me 4 00:00:09,710 --> 00:00:13,930 Speaker 1: throw a few numbers at you. 200,000 Singaporeans, 16 months 5 00:00:13,939 --> 00:00:17,549 Speaker 1: of discussions, 100 and 80 pages. Well, you guys know 6 00:00:17,559 --> 00:00:20,169 Speaker 1: why we're here. But for those of you listening in, 7 00:00:20,180 --> 00:00:23,729 Speaker 1: if you're not sure, it's the forward Singapore report. Now, 8 00:00:23,739 --> 00:00:25,879 Speaker 1: if you're not sure what that is, well, it's based 9 00:00:26,035 --> 00:00:29,795 Speaker 1: a blueprint for an economic and social transformation of Singapore 10 00:00:29,986 --> 00:00:32,155 Speaker 1: in a way, I guess it's like the grand plan 11 00:00:32,165 --> 00:00:35,445 Speaker 1: for where we see Singapore heading into in the future. 12 00:00:35,625 --> 00:00:38,925 Speaker 1: The report is a combination of a nationwide engagement exercise 13 00:00:38,936 --> 00:00:41,015 Speaker 1: and it covers a lot of ground. But today we're 14 00:00:41,026 --> 00:00:43,585 Speaker 1: just going to zoom in and focus on one aspect, 15 00:00:43,595 --> 00:00:47,015 Speaker 1: the new Singapore dream. I remember when I 16 00:00:47,091 --> 00:00:49,050 Speaker 1: growing up, it was the five CS talking about like 17 00:00:49,062 --> 00:00:53,751 Speaker 1: car cash, credit card, country club condo. But according to 18 00:00:53,762 --> 00:00:56,951 Speaker 1: D PM, Lawrence Wong that has changed people now want 19 00:00:56,962 --> 00:01:00,380 Speaker 1: more from life. So we're wondering how has this idea 20 00:01:00,391 --> 00:01:02,791 Speaker 1: of a good life sort of evolved? What do people 21 00:01:02,801 --> 00:01:05,991 Speaker 1: really want and more importantly, what does that mean for 22 00:01:06,001 --> 00:01:08,111 Speaker 1: the way the country will be governed 23 00:01:09,809 --> 00:01:13,620 Speaker 1: with me to chat about this are Doctor Matthew Matthews, 24 00:01:13,629 --> 00:01:16,149 Speaker 1: head of IP S social lab. He's also a father 25 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,680 Speaker 1: of three sons. Hi, Jun Yong, lead of insights that 26 00:01:19,690 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 1: focus on the family Singapore and also a mother of three. Hi, 27 00:01:23,779 --> 00:01:26,330 Speaker 1: nice to be here. Ho Ching. We a 25 year 28 00:01:26,339 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 1: old software developer. Hi, everyone. Ok. So I want to 29 00:01:30,330 --> 00:01:32,970 Speaker 1: quote something from the report that says all parents would 30 00:01:32,980 --> 00:01:35,510 Speaker 1: like their Children to get ahead and do well in life. 31 00:01:35,519 --> 00:01:36,419 Speaker 1: But how far should 32 00:01:36,513 --> 00:01:40,494 Speaker 1: go in pursuing these material goals? How much is enough? 33 00:01:40,664 --> 00:01:43,173 Speaker 1: How do we avoid getting trapped in a vicious cycle 34 00:01:43,183 --> 00:01:46,874 Speaker 1: of endless hyper competition where we focus too much on 35 00:01:46,884 --> 00:01:50,234 Speaker 1: keeping up or even trying to get ahead of others. 36 00:01:50,393 --> 00:01:52,143 Speaker 1: So Matthew is going to start with you. Your work 37 00:01:52,153 --> 00:01:55,064 Speaker 1: in IPs, sees you keeping a close eye on social trends. 38 00:01:55,073 --> 00:01:58,333 Speaker 1: Have you seen a shift in how success is measured today? 39 00:01:58,524 --> 00:02:00,823 Speaker 2: You know, if you look at it from a broad angle, 40 00:02:00,833 --> 00:02:03,124 Speaker 2: you would see that we still care a lot about 41 00:02:03,888 --> 00:02:07,458 Speaker 2: success. Probably not the Five CS country Club. I don't 42 00:02:07,468 --> 00:02:10,268 Speaker 2: think anybody cares about country club today. Credit cards, everybody 43 00:02:10,276 --> 00:02:12,438 Speaker 2: has credit cards. It's so much easier to get one. 44 00:02:12,447 --> 00:02:15,256 Speaker 2: But really we still care a lot about consumer goods. 45 00:02:15,268 --> 00:02:18,238 Speaker 2: The numbers speak for itself, right? How many new devices 46 00:02:18,248 --> 00:02:22,158 Speaker 2: get sold whenever it gets launched. Singaporeans travel overseas and 47 00:02:22,167 --> 00:02:24,998 Speaker 2: want to go to more and more exotic places. So 48 00:02:25,007 --> 00:02:28,078 Speaker 2: we do still care a lot about experiencing and having 49 00:02:28,087 --> 00:02:29,837 Speaker 2: material items they are there. But 50 00:02:29,921 --> 00:02:32,391 Speaker 2: then we do notice that some changes happen. If we 51 00:02:32,401 --> 00:02:34,832 Speaker 2: look at our younger people, if we look at our polls, 52 00:02:34,841 --> 00:02:37,221 Speaker 2: more of them express the fact that they would give 53 00:02:37,231 --> 00:02:40,030 Speaker 2: some things up. So for instance, if you had to 54 00:02:40,042 --> 00:02:42,371 Speaker 2: ask them about, would you work yourself to death or 55 00:02:42,382 --> 00:02:45,182 Speaker 2: would you want to also have something more meaningful? Of course, 56 00:02:45,192 --> 00:02:47,462 Speaker 2: they would say more likely to date and say I 57 00:02:47,472 --> 00:02:50,692 Speaker 2: would want to make sure I have got work life balance. 58 00:02:50,701 --> 00:02:53,150 Speaker 2: I have family. I have the other things I want 59 00:02:53,162 --> 00:02:55,082 Speaker 2: to do. Work will not be dominant in my life. 60 00:02:55,091 --> 00:02:56,531 Speaker 2: So some things have changed on the 61 00:02:56,626 --> 00:03:00,725 Speaker 2: s at least things like values, other aspirations have become 62 00:03:00,735 --> 00:03:03,554 Speaker 2: as important though I will not say that material things 63 00:03:03,565 --> 00:03:04,716 Speaker 2: have dropped out completely. 64 00:03:04,725 --> 00:03:06,606 Speaker 1: So one would argue that perhaps the focus is a 65 00:03:06,615 --> 00:03:09,785 Speaker 1: little bit less on materialism. We need it to survive, 66 00:03:09,796 --> 00:03:12,356 Speaker 1: but it's not the be all and end all Ching. 67 00:03:12,365 --> 00:03:13,796 Speaker 1: We I saw you smiling a little bit as he 68 00:03:13,805 --> 00:03:16,186 Speaker 1: said that and many young people like you when they 69 00:03:16,195 --> 00:03:18,065 Speaker 1: come to a job and they do the interview, they 70 00:03:18,076 --> 00:03:21,046 Speaker 1: asked about work life balance. They asked about working weekends. 71 00:03:21,055 --> 00:03:22,865 Speaker 1: It is very much an issue. Is that the same 72 00:03:22,876 --> 00:03:23,205 Speaker 1: for you? 73 00:03:23,490 --> 00:03:27,940 Speaker 1: Yes, I think that transitioning from like as a graduate 74 00:03:27,949 --> 00:03:32,470 Speaker 1: to like working, it's quite a difficult change when we 75 00:03:32,479 --> 00:03:37,179 Speaker 1: have to work Monday to Friday because school, you know, 76 00:03:37,190 --> 00:03:40,449 Speaker 1: you do have public holidays and the year end holidays. 77 00:03:40,460 --> 00:03:43,350 Speaker 1: But when we transition to work life, there's no such thing. 78 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,279 Speaker 1: You're saying the structure is different, you don't have the 79 00:03:45,289 --> 00:03:47,470 Speaker 1: same freedom anymore. Is that what you're implying? Yeah, I 80 00:03:47,479 --> 00:03:47,990 Speaker 1: think that's 81 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: something that we are not used to. A lot of 82 00:03:50,809 --> 00:03:53,119 Speaker 1: us when we come out to work, we kind of 83 00:03:53,130 --> 00:03:56,899 Speaker 1: focus a lot on what is something that we want 84 00:03:56,910 --> 00:04:00,750 Speaker 1: from our work. What's our purpose? There should be more 85 00:04:00,759 --> 00:04:03,619 Speaker 1: than just more than just the money. That's what you mean? Yeah. 86 00:04:03,630 --> 00:04:06,779 Speaker 1: And also the endless red race working 9 to 5 87 00:04:06,789 --> 00:04:09,399 Speaker 1: until you die. So if I ask you now, what 88 00:04:09,410 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: is your career path like what is your 89 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: and go, what are you working towards? There's a question 90 00:04:16,928 --> 00:04:21,579 Speaker 1: that I ask myself every day, every day. Yeah, I mean, 91 00:04:21,589 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: it's like a process of figuring out for yourself. What 92 00:04:25,010 --> 00:04:28,190 Speaker 1: do you want in your life? Giving value back to 93 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 1: the community is very important to me. Currently, I'm like 94 00:04:31,290 --> 00:04:34,540 Speaker 1: a software developer. The reason why I decided to jump 95 00:04:34,549 --> 00:04:37,659 Speaker 1: into this role is because I saw the demand from 96 00:04:37,670 --> 00:04:38,700 Speaker 1: the society then 97 00:04:38,809 --> 00:04:42,029 Speaker 1: need to digitalize and how much it can improve the 98 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: entire society. June. Let's bring you into this conversation because 99 00:04:45,609 --> 00:04:47,549 Speaker 1: a lot of the narrative in this forward C report 100 00:04:47,559 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: also speaks to parents and families and you speak to 101 00:04:50,450 --> 00:04:52,459 Speaker 1: a lot of parents from all walks of life. It 102 00:04:52,470 --> 00:04:56,089 Speaker 1: is asking that we perhaps focus less on grades, which 103 00:04:56,100 --> 00:04:58,549 Speaker 1: is something that in Singapore we all know is a very, 104 00:04:58,559 --> 00:05:00,459 Speaker 1: very big deal. Do you think it is going to 105 00:05:00,470 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: be that easy? Can we just change? Will parents be 106 00:05:02,890 --> 00:05:04,540 Speaker 1: able to let go of that? And 107 00:05:04,820 --> 00:05:08,190 Speaker 1: sort of just say, ok, this could be something, something 108 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: more without quite knowing exactly what I'm seeing, small pockets 109 00:05:12,850 --> 00:05:17,980 Speaker 1: of my community come up and talk about more than 110 00:05:17,988 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: grades and I'm not talking about enrichment or sports or 111 00:05:21,209 --> 00:05:25,140 Speaker 1: music because that could be another ra race in itself. Right. 112 00:05:25,350 --> 00:05:25,750 Speaker 1: I'm talking 113 00:05:25,825 --> 00:05:30,434 Speaker 1: about more of the character building in their Children. More 114 00:05:30,445 --> 00:05:35,704 Speaker 1: of exposure to perhaps the needs in society being sensitive 115 00:05:35,714 --> 00:05:39,945 Speaker 1: to perhaps their friends who may come from backgrounds that 116 00:05:39,954 --> 00:05:43,224 Speaker 1: are different from themselves. I'm sure all parents will start 117 00:05:43,234 --> 00:05:45,243 Speaker 1: talking about how I want my kid to be more 118 00:05:45,255 --> 00:05:46,765 Speaker 1: exposed and all that. But 119 00:05:47,250 --> 00:05:49,570 Speaker 1: when push comes to shove, if they have to choose, ok, 120 00:05:49,579 --> 00:05:52,010 Speaker 1: this afternoon, you either go and volunteer and help these 121 00:05:52,019 --> 00:05:55,349 Speaker 1: people at some voluntary organization or you go for tuition 122 00:05:55,359 --> 00:05:57,450 Speaker 1: because your math test is coming up in two weeks. 123 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: Which are they likely to choose? Right. Unfortunately, it would 124 00:06:01,928 --> 00:06:04,709 Speaker 1: most likely be the latter. It would still be the tuition, 125 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:08,010 Speaker 1: the tuition, right. It's quite hard to pinpoint the reason why. 126 00:06:08,019 --> 00:06:12,579 Speaker 1: But the beliefs that a child's grades can make or 127 00:06:12,589 --> 00:06:14,488 Speaker 1: break their future is still 128 00:06:14,750 --> 00:06:19,579 Speaker 1: entrenched. Although we are seeing small pockets, small glimpses of 129 00:06:19,589 --> 00:06:23,980 Speaker 1: people who are looking beyond that and believing that learning 130 00:06:23,988 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: can be a little bit more lifelong and can take 131 00:06:27,890 --> 00:06:31,549 Speaker 1: different forms from what we traditionally know as the tried 132 00:06:31,559 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: and tested, you know, JC uni Roots and I have 133 00:06:34,209 --> 00:06:36,149 Speaker 1: come across friends like that. My friend who said, I'm 134 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:38,010 Speaker 1: gonna take his son out of school for a year 135 00:06:38,019 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 1: to go and join the professional tennis circuit because he's 136 00:06:41,049 --> 00:06:42,059 Speaker 1: a really good player, right? 137 00:06:42,420 --> 00:06:45,469 Speaker 1: But many would argue this is people with privilege who 138 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,709 Speaker 1: have the resources to do it. Not everyone can do 139 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:47,970 Speaker 1: that 140 00:06:48,359 --> 00:06:51,489 Speaker 1: for everyone else is not even an option. And perhaps 141 00:06:51,500 --> 00:06:55,579 Speaker 1: it's even more pressurizing if you yourself are struggling to 142 00:06:55,589 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: make ends meet and therefore you would be putting a 143 00:06:59,010 --> 00:07:01,928 Speaker 1: lot of expectations, a lot of hopes and a lot 144 00:07:01,940 --> 00:07:04,380 Speaker 1: of dreams on the next generation. And I think that's 145 00:07:04,390 --> 00:07:08,459 Speaker 1: very normal if you were in a particular situation where 146 00:07:08,470 --> 00:07:11,549 Speaker 1: you are struggling and looking to make ends meet, right? 147 00:07:11,559 --> 00:07:13,359 Speaker 1: So this new Singapore dream that 148 00:07:13,493 --> 00:07:15,713 Speaker 1: we're talking about in the forward SG report, I mean, Matthew, 149 00:07:15,723 --> 00:07:18,924 Speaker 1: how realistic is it? Because while we want to dream 150 00:07:18,933 --> 00:07:22,334 Speaker 1: and have all these greater ideals at the end of 151 00:07:22,343 --> 00:07:24,514 Speaker 1: the day, the bread and butter issues still matter. 152 00:07:24,523 --> 00:07:27,053 Speaker 2: This need for holistic development is something that you know, 153 00:07:27,063 --> 00:07:28,604 Speaker 2: a couple of years ago. And I think just as 154 00:07:28,614 --> 00:07:30,734 Speaker 2: what June said, people have already been talking about this 155 00:07:30,743 --> 00:07:33,894 Speaker 2: quite a bit. It's really about having the environment, the 156 00:07:33,903 --> 00:07:37,914 Speaker 2: ecosystem that actually supports all this. So just like the 157 00:07:37,924 --> 00:07:38,523 Speaker 2: question you asked 158 00:07:38,627 --> 00:07:41,937 Speaker 2: just now tuition versus going out to volunteer for a 159 00:07:41,947 --> 00:07:44,407 Speaker 2: long time, the structure is such that if you take 160 00:07:44,417 --> 00:07:46,638 Speaker 2: time out, you may not be able to cope well, 161 00:07:46,648 --> 00:07:49,566 Speaker 2: if you don't cope well in school, then therefore, something 162 00:07:49,578 --> 00:07:52,597 Speaker 2: disastrous happens. At least that's what people perceive. And you 163 00:07:52,608 --> 00:07:55,817 Speaker 2: don't see the ecosystem that allows people to take that 164 00:07:55,828 --> 00:07:59,088 Speaker 2: year out or focus on something else and still be 165 00:07:59,097 --> 00:08:01,808 Speaker 2: able to get back on the escalator. At the same time, 166 00:08:01,817 --> 00:08:03,638 Speaker 2: I think that's where we need to move 167 00:08:03,881 --> 00:08:06,101 Speaker 2: as a society. And I think that's what forward SJ 168 00:08:06,111 --> 00:08:08,372 Speaker 2: is trying to do and saying, hey, at least from 169 00:08:08,381 --> 00:08:10,652 Speaker 2: the policy point of view, there needs to be more 170 00:08:10,661 --> 00:08:13,562 Speaker 2: of that attempt to look at ways to make sure 171 00:08:13,571 --> 00:08:15,821 Speaker 2: people don't feel that they will lose out, right? So 172 00:08:15,832 --> 00:08:18,782 Speaker 2: if you didn't push yourself very hard in school and 173 00:08:18,791 --> 00:08:22,921 Speaker 2: maybe prioritized, maybe a little bit less stress in school, 174 00:08:22,981 --> 00:08:25,092 Speaker 2: there will be opportunities to do that later on and 175 00:08:25,101 --> 00:08:27,022 Speaker 2: you will not feel penalized with that. So I think 176 00:08:27,032 --> 00:08:28,772 Speaker 2: that's been the emphasis but it will 177 00:08:28,936 --> 00:08:32,125 Speaker 2: a lot of ships because our structures are still such 178 00:08:32,135 --> 00:08:35,435 Speaker 2: that early movers. When you acquire things early, you're going 179 00:08:35,445 --> 00:08:37,655 Speaker 2: to more likely succeed. Then when you get it 180 00:08:37,666 --> 00:08:40,776 Speaker 1: later, you raise a key word I picked up on opportunities. 181 00:08:40,785 --> 00:08:43,156 Speaker 1: So the whole idea is that you have the option 182 00:08:43,325 --> 00:08:45,986 Speaker 1: along the way to step off the escalator and try 183 00:08:45,995 --> 00:08:48,666 Speaker 1: something else. But in many cases, and we know this, 184 00:08:48,676 --> 00:08:51,205 Speaker 1: when we get on the escalator, there's no sideways. You 185 00:08:51,216 --> 00:08:52,835 Speaker 1: just either go from the beginning to the end, you 186 00:08:52,846 --> 00:08:53,954 Speaker 1: can't get off halfway. 187 00:08:54,229 --> 00:08:56,390 Speaker 1: And similarly in Singapore, how many people are going to 188 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,468 Speaker 1: get off halfway? Because they'll say I'll lose out if 189 00:08:59,479 --> 00:09:02,289 Speaker 1: you were given the option now to do something more 190 00:09:02,299 --> 00:09:06,049 Speaker 1: with your life. But it means stepping off your career path, 191 00:09:06,270 --> 00:09:09,679 Speaker 1: you started the job, you know, but an opportunity to 192 00:09:09,690 --> 00:09:12,559 Speaker 1: do some meaningful work comes along, but it does mean 193 00:09:12,570 --> 00:09:14,799 Speaker 1: you leaving your full time job now. Would that be 194 00:09:14,809 --> 00:09:15,609 Speaker 1: a consideration? 195 00:09:16,109 --> 00:09:21,830 Speaker 1: Hm. It's something I have already done previously. I was 196 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:26,890 Speaker 1: a marketer after like questioning a lot about my purpose. 197 00:09:26,900 --> 00:09:29,369 Speaker 1: What do I want from my career? I decided to 198 00:09:29,380 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 1: transition to become a software developer. But that's because you 199 00:09:33,289 --> 00:09:38,299 Speaker 1: see this job being more meaningful in the long run. Yes. Previously, 200 00:09:38,309 --> 00:09:40,659 Speaker 1: in my role, I was feeling a lot of doubt. 201 00:09:41,169 --> 00:09:44,270 Speaker 1: I struggled with s value in the work that I 202 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:44,750 Speaker 1: do 203 00:09:45,130 --> 00:09:47,510 Speaker 2: from what I'm hearing is this idea that a lot 204 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,439 Speaker 2: more Singaporeans would move between one thing to another because 205 00:09:51,450 --> 00:09:54,799 Speaker 2: they might feel more valuable right nowadays, to take a job. Nowadays, 206 00:09:54,809 --> 00:09:57,309 Speaker 2: when they ask the supervisor what's valuable, what can I 207 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,229 Speaker 2: get out of this and learn and all that? 208 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:01,858 Speaker 2: But I was, I was also curious, what about jumping 209 00:10:01,869 --> 00:10:05,650 Speaker 2: off to something you mentioned that social work interest? Let's 210 00:10:05,659 --> 00:10:08,309 Speaker 2: say that was there. Would you have jumped on to it? 211 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:10,169 Speaker 2: And if it was not, something was well paid and 212 00:10:10,179 --> 00:10:11,848 Speaker 2: all that, would you take that? 213 00:10:12,130 --> 00:10:16,330 Speaker 1: I think that would depend also on circumstances. If I 214 00:10:16,340 --> 00:10:19,210 Speaker 1: were from a more well to do family, I would 215 00:10:19,219 --> 00:10:23,580 Speaker 1: have less considerations. But that is not the truth. I 216 00:10:23,590 --> 00:10:28,950 Speaker 1: would definitely think harder before I make a decision to 217 00:10:28,960 --> 00:10:32,710 Speaker 1: change career path or like make a change in my 218 00:10:32,719 --> 00:10:33,830 Speaker 1: direction in life. 219 00:10:38,729 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: Hello, my name is Steve LA and I'm Theresa Tang 220 00:10:41,530 --> 00:10:44,419 Speaker 1: and we are the hosts of CN A correspondent, a 221 00:10:44,429 --> 00:10:47,299 Speaker 1: podcast that takes you to the heart of the work 222 00:10:47,309 --> 00:10:51,669 Speaker 1: our correspondents do across the globe from China's COVID response 223 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:54,929 Speaker 1: to the Childcare center massacre in Thailand and 224 00:10:55,104 --> 00:10:57,614 Speaker 1: the fall of Najib Razak to the rise of Anwar 225 00:10:57,625 --> 00:11:01,215 Speaker 1: Ibrahim as Malaysia's Prime Minister, we speak to the people 226 00:11:01,224 --> 00:11:04,125 Speaker 1: at the reporting front lines. So if you want to 227 00:11:04,135 --> 00:11:07,635 Speaker 1: know how the biggest global stories unfold, make sure you 228 00:11:07,645 --> 00:11:11,364 Speaker 1: follow or subscribe to us wherever you get your podcasts. 229 00:11:17,469 --> 00:11:21,348 Speaker 1: This more compassionate, gentler kind of Singapore and wanting to 230 00:11:21,359 --> 00:11:24,809 Speaker 1: do greater good, tends to be a select few who 231 00:11:25,049 --> 00:11:28,039 Speaker 1: may not have to really work for a living, for instance, 232 00:11:28,179 --> 00:11:30,809 Speaker 1: So is that representative of our country and the kind 233 00:11:30,820 --> 00:11:32,809 Speaker 1: of country that we want to have in the future? 234 00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:35,449 Speaker 1: What do you think? I was just gonna say that 235 00:11:35,460 --> 00:11:39,130 Speaker 1: when you asked the question about taking time off to, 236 00:11:39,215 --> 00:11:42,973 Speaker 1: to a more meaningful pursuit and immediately the thought that 237 00:11:42,984 --> 00:11:46,794 Speaker 1: came to mind was actually parenting as an enterprise is 238 00:11:46,804 --> 00:11:52,155 Speaker 1: one of those meaningful pursuits that many Singaporeans do engage with. 239 00:11:52,164 --> 00:11:55,474 Speaker 1: I found myself having to take time from my corporate 240 00:11:55,484 --> 00:11:59,075 Speaker 1: work before this, when my kids were all very young, 241 00:11:59,085 --> 00:12:00,864 Speaker 1: all below the age of seven. 242 00:12:01,219 --> 00:12:03,689 Speaker 1: It was chaos in the home and I didn't want 243 00:12:03,700 --> 00:12:08,229 Speaker 1: to have such a huge reliance on external help, having 244 00:12:08,239 --> 00:12:11,729 Speaker 1: to step off that corporate ladder, so to speak for 245 00:12:11,739 --> 00:12:15,039 Speaker 1: a number of years, looking back, it was probably a 246 00:12:15,049 --> 00:12:18,039 Speaker 1: luxury in a sense that I had the support of 247 00:12:18,049 --> 00:12:21,010 Speaker 1: my husband. He had a full time job. We were 248 00:12:21,020 --> 00:12:24,299 Speaker 1: not living from hand to mouth. And so we were 249 00:12:24,309 --> 00:12:25,010 Speaker 1: able to make a 250 00:12:25,210 --> 00:12:30,590 Speaker 1: adjustments for a single income for about 3 to 4 years, right? 251 00:12:30,599 --> 00:12:34,010 Speaker 1: And then after that, making the move to the social 252 00:12:34,020 --> 00:12:36,488 Speaker 1: service sector as well. I work for a not for profit, 253 00:12:36,500 --> 00:12:38,739 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, really, we are not in it for 254 00:12:38,750 --> 00:12:42,030 Speaker 1: the pay, we need to make a difference and to 255 00:12:42,039 --> 00:12:44,739 Speaker 1: really improve the lives of other families. Correct? But I 256 00:12:44,750 --> 00:12:47,329 Speaker 1: guess most of the population will not be like you 257 00:12:47,340 --> 00:12:49,229 Speaker 1: or be in a similar circumstance. And, 258 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:51,510 Speaker 1: but I'm glad you raised the point of parenting because 259 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:53,659 Speaker 1: sometimes we forget. But actually that is also like a 260 00:12:53,669 --> 00:12:56,299 Speaker 1: volunteer job if you really think about it, you know, 261 00:12:56,309 --> 00:12:59,739 Speaker 1: for stay home moms. The one thing that irks this 262 00:12:59,750 --> 00:13:03,630 Speaker 1: group most is when you ask them something like, what 263 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:04,460 Speaker 1: do you do all day? 264 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,150 Speaker 1: And it will be like, ouch, I'm raising the next 265 00:13:09,159 --> 00:13:12,369 Speaker 1: generation of leaders for our nation. That's true. And you 266 00:13:12,380 --> 00:13:15,020 Speaker 1: can inculcate these values because you're there to do it. 267 00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,359 Speaker 1: But Qing we, is this something that you would ever 268 00:13:17,369 --> 00:13:20,710 Speaker 1: consider if you were, you know, we got married, had Children. 269 00:13:21,039 --> 00:13:23,010 Speaker 1: Would this be an option? Would you feel like you 270 00:13:23,020 --> 00:13:25,549 Speaker 1: were losing out in the rat race, so to speak? 271 00:13:25,919 --> 00:13:29,429 Speaker 1: It is a concern because right now at my age, 272 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:33,830 Speaker 1: we are actually building our career. There is a timeline 273 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:37,569 Speaker 1: to like when you can have kids and by a 274 00:13:37,580 --> 00:13:40,770 Speaker 1: certain age, you can't if we do want to have kids. 275 00:13:40,780 --> 00:13:44,130 Speaker 1: I'm actually thinking ahead now, how far do I want 276 00:13:44,140 --> 00:13:48,549 Speaker 1: to go ahead before? I want to have kids? And 277 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: I don't have a timeline, but it's something that's always 278 00:13:51,409 --> 00:13:54,340 Speaker 1: on my mind. The word social compact has been used 279 00:13:54,349 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: a lot recently in Singapore. And I guess it's really 280 00:13:56,650 --> 00:13:59,978 Speaker 1: about building this society where we're all really looking out 281 00:13:59,989 --> 00:14:00,770 Speaker 1: for each other. 282 00:14:01,150 --> 00:14:03,830 Speaker 1: There is that community. But at the same time, we 283 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 1: got to argue and ask what's going to happen does 284 00:14:06,409 --> 00:14:08,590 Speaker 1: that mean we're no longer going to be as hungry. 285 00:14:08,630 --> 00:14:12,968 Speaker 1: Will our economy suffer? Will we lose jobs to other people? 286 00:14:12,979 --> 00:14:16,449 Speaker 1: Because we're just saying, ok, you know, let me hold 287 00:14:16,460 --> 00:14:19,090 Speaker 1: back a little bit and focus on these other things 288 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 2: to start off with. I don't think Singapore DNA allows 289 00:14:22,330 --> 00:14:24,849 Speaker 2: for many Singaporeans to actually go on this 290 00:14:24,945 --> 00:14:27,405 Speaker 2: extreme of saying, oh, just take it easy. I'll take 291 00:14:27,414 --> 00:14:29,724 Speaker 2: gap years every year and I'll just take care of 292 00:14:29,734 --> 00:14:33,565 Speaker 2: other things. I think Singaporeans are very realistic about where 293 00:14:33,575 --> 00:14:37,145 Speaker 2: we stand as a nation, as a people. We constantly, 294 00:14:37,155 --> 00:14:39,974 Speaker 2: even if it's not hearing it from the government, just 295 00:14:39,984 --> 00:14:43,484 Speaker 2: our own exposure to other parts of Asia and how 296 00:14:43,494 --> 00:14:46,744 Speaker 2: people are extremely hungry, working very, very hard. And so 297 00:14:46,755 --> 00:14:48,565 Speaker 2: there's always that sense that in a while 298 00:14:48,739 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 2: if we don't keep our act together, we may lose 299 00:14:51,450 --> 00:14:53,849 Speaker 2: out and some of the things that we do care 300 00:14:53,859 --> 00:14:58,340 Speaker 2: about ensuring our reasonable economic prosperity and progress may not 301 00:14:58,349 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 2: be there. So I think people are not jumping to that. However, 302 00:15:02,210 --> 00:15:04,539 Speaker 2: I think that there is that sense that if we 303 00:15:04,549 --> 00:15:07,460 Speaker 2: can kind of balance this better, we might be able 304 00:15:07,469 --> 00:15:09,210 Speaker 2: to get both. We might still be able to be 305 00:15:09,219 --> 00:15:12,419 Speaker 2: economically competitive and then also have some of the final 306 00:15:12,534 --> 00:15:13,775 Speaker 2: things in life. So it's a little bit more of 307 00:15:13,784 --> 00:15:16,635 Speaker 2: a thinking process here. I'm not just gonna just f 308 00:15:16,645 --> 00:15:21,005 Speaker 2: extremely hard without thinking carefully, right? My balancing some things 309 00:15:21,015 --> 00:15:23,965 Speaker 2: because if I do that, if I become less anxious, 310 00:15:23,974 --> 00:15:26,104 Speaker 2: less stressful, maybe I become a lot more creative, which 311 00:15:26,114 --> 00:15:30,054 Speaker 2: is the truth in societies where people have time to pause, 312 00:15:30,065 --> 00:15:32,755 Speaker 2: relax a little bit, not get so caught up with 313 00:15:32,765 --> 00:15:35,184 Speaker 2: just that same task, you know, they might actually see 314 00:15:35,195 --> 00:15:36,234 Speaker 2: higher productivity. 315 00:15:36,530 --> 00:15:39,260 Speaker 2: So I think that's really coming to that place of balance, 316 00:15:39,270 --> 00:15:41,309 Speaker 2: which I think we are going towards and we should 317 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:42,270 Speaker 2: be striving towards. 318 00:15:42,429 --> 00:15:45,250 Speaker 1: And I guess finding that balance, that's the tough part, right? 319 00:15:45,260 --> 00:15:48,070 Speaker 2: It is, it is in some way or another, maybe 320 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,450 Speaker 2: that constant attempt now in Singapore and say, hey, if 321 00:15:50,460 --> 00:15:52,150 Speaker 2: you're moving forward with this 322 00:15:52,224 --> 00:15:55,924 Speaker 2: new orientation might kind of at least signal something, but 323 00:15:55,934 --> 00:15:57,885 Speaker 2: we really need a lot of other structures to make 324 00:15:57,895 --> 00:15:57,955 Speaker 2: it 325 00:15:57,965 --> 00:16:01,854 Speaker 1: possible. Is it really about these structures and these policies? Well, 326 00:16:01,864 --> 00:16:05,885 Speaker 1: more policies, more words on a paper really change our mindset. 327 00:16:05,895 --> 00:16:07,765 Speaker 1: Reading this report is not like I've gone, OK, 328 00:16:08,090 --> 00:16:11,010 Speaker 1: tomorrow I'm gonna change and start being a nicer person, 329 00:16:11,020 --> 00:16:13,450 Speaker 1: more compassionate. I totally agree with you. It's not gonna 330 00:16:13,460 --> 00:16:17,969 Speaker 1: be really top down, you know, policy driven. The major 331 00:16:17,979 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: influences in my own life actually come from the community 332 00:16:21,210 --> 00:16:24,010 Speaker 1: of people whom I spend the most time with whether 333 00:16:24,020 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: I know it or not, whether I'm conscious of it 334 00:16:25,849 --> 00:16:29,130 Speaker 1: or not. The things that my friends would talk about 335 00:16:29,140 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: if they are talking about tuition from morning to night, 336 00:16:32,549 --> 00:16:36,570 Speaker 1: as much as I don't embrace that kind of life 337 00:16:36,580 --> 00:16:37,450 Speaker 1: for my Children. 338 00:16:38,049 --> 00:16:41,950 Speaker 1: I might just get sucked in without thinking without pausing. 339 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,409 Speaker 1: As Matthew mentioned, we do need to pay attention to 340 00:16:45,419 --> 00:16:49,049 Speaker 1: the voices that we surround ourselves with people. 341 00:16:49,059 --> 00:16:51,830 Speaker 2: Of course, also say that I push for that tuition 342 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,419 Speaker 2: because the school tests are so difficult. So the school 343 00:16:54,429 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 2: tests are really dumb, then perhaps I won't feel that 344 00:16:59,450 --> 00:17:01,450 Speaker 2: pressure too. Of course, then you can make some of 345 00:17:01,460 --> 00:17:03,710 Speaker 2: those choices, right? But I think that's where people say 346 00:17:03,914 --> 00:17:05,875 Speaker 2: part of this is policy driven. You might have to 347 00:17:05,885 --> 00:17:07,824 Speaker 2: change some of that. Then people might get to the 348 00:17:07,834 --> 00:17:09,824 Speaker 2: bandwagon and start supporting it. 349 00:17:09,834 --> 00:17:12,944 Speaker 1: It's a bit of a push and pull. Right? And 350 00:17:12,954 --> 00:17:17,224 Speaker 1: if nothing changes at the top, it's really, then us 351 00:17:17,234 --> 00:17:21,625 Speaker 1: because what kind of life do we imagine for our kids? 352 00:17:21,635 --> 00:17:24,324 Speaker 1: I think we kind of need to find that inner 353 00:17:24,334 --> 00:17:28,625 Speaker 1: strength and the inner resources to be able to choose 354 00:17:28,635 --> 00:17:29,425 Speaker 1: wisely 355 00:17:29,849 --> 00:17:32,020 Speaker 1: and not be swayed by the voices we keep hearing 356 00:17:32,030 --> 00:17:34,579 Speaker 1: because it's true, especially kids at school. When you hear 357 00:17:34,589 --> 00:17:37,229 Speaker 1: everyone's doing this, everyone's going for this tuition. You're like, oh, 358 00:17:37,239 --> 00:17:39,239 Speaker 1: for more, right? You fear of missing out and you 359 00:17:39,250 --> 00:17:42,699 Speaker 1: think you're not doing the best you can for your kids. Well, 360 00:17:42,869 --> 00:17:45,079 Speaker 1: this is an ongoing conversation. I don't think we'll come 361 00:17:45,089 --> 00:17:47,030 Speaker 1: to an answer, but I'm just going to very quickly 362 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,219 Speaker 1: wrap up and just quickly one thing, if you could 363 00:17:49,229 --> 00:17:51,149 Speaker 1: have one thing that you would like to have in 364 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,180 Speaker 1: our next lap of Singapore, the new Singapore dream. How 365 00:17:54,189 --> 00:17:56,339 Speaker 1: do you see that playing out for you? I think 366 00:17:56,609 --> 00:17:59,709 Speaker 1: where my parenting had, you know, the scary thing that 367 00:17:59,719 --> 00:18:04,410 Speaker 1: I've observed among my peers and friends is that the 368 00:18:04,420 --> 00:18:09,910 Speaker 1: youth are increasingly even busier than the parents. I wonder 369 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:14,270 Speaker 1: to myself, is this the kind of life and pace 370 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:17,449 Speaker 1: of life that I want the future generation to lead? 371 00:18:17,939 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: I would really hope to see that we would have 372 00:18:20,689 --> 00:18:23,349 Speaker 1: a bit of a more balanced approach to life. 373 00:18:23,459 --> 00:18:26,599 Speaker 1: A bit more compassionate on ourselves to know that we 374 00:18:26,609 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 1: are not machines, right? And we don't have to keep 375 00:18:29,449 --> 00:18:32,430 Speaker 1: striving in this way to really live a good life. 376 00:18:32,439 --> 00:18:35,250 Speaker 1: We don't need the high life to live a good life. 377 00:18:35,390 --> 00:18:36,219 Speaker 1: That's a good line. 378 00:18:36,229 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 2: Matthews. I hope we can increasingly become a giving society 379 00:18:39,569 --> 00:18:42,020 Speaker 2: as more and more us do. Well, there will always 380 00:18:42,030 --> 00:18:45,920 Speaker 2: be that interest, willingness and of course, that pleasure to 381 00:18:45,930 --> 00:18:48,489 Speaker 2: be able to give back in every way possible. I 382 00:18:48,500 --> 00:18:50,199 Speaker 2: think that would define us 383 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,550 Speaker 2: people and make us a lot more generous hearted. I 384 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:54,319 Speaker 2: think that would be a good 385 00:18:54,329 --> 00:18:59,020 Speaker 1: spirit. I would like the workplace to be more open 386 00:18:59,030 --> 00:19:05,260 Speaker 1: for discussion, more tolerant of having family responsibilities and everyone 387 00:19:05,270 --> 00:19:08,670 Speaker 1: feeling comfortable enough to talk about like, how's your kid 388 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,899 Speaker 1: doing this weekend? How is your family? Do you need 389 00:19:11,910 --> 00:19:14,969 Speaker 1: any support? Except it's now just oh, which tuition Center 390 00:19:14,979 --> 00:19:16,909 Speaker 1: using it. Have you heard of this one? 391 00:19:18,339 --> 00:19:20,738 Speaker 1: So that's how they get their next lead. But yeah, 392 00:19:20,750 --> 00:19:23,209 Speaker 1: this is a conversation that is ongoing and I think 393 00:19:23,219 --> 00:19:26,550 Speaker 1: we all have different aspirations for the country. But at 394 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,270 Speaker 1: the end of the day, we want a country that 395 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,239 Speaker 1: I'm sure is more caring, more compassionate one that we 396 00:19:31,250 --> 00:19:33,020 Speaker 1: are looking out for each other a bit more and 397 00:19:33,030 --> 00:19:36,400 Speaker 1: not just really every man out there for himself. 398 00:19:36,989 --> 00:19:38,719 Speaker 1: Those of you who are listening in, please send us 399 00:19:38,729 --> 00:19:40,910 Speaker 1: your feedback. We are on social media. This is gonna 400 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,780 Speaker 1: be on youtube as well. Leave us a comment. Let 401 00:19:42,790 --> 00:19:45,060 Speaker 1: us know what you like or did not like. We 402 00:19:45,069 --> 00:19:48,129 Speaker 1: would love to have some feedback from you. Thanks to 403 00:19:48,140 --> 00:19:51,699 Speaker 1: my CN A podcast team. They are Jacqueline Chan, Jesselyn Tan, 404 00:19:51,709 --> 00:19:55,530 Speaker 1: Joan Chan, Kristina Roberts Wen and Tiffany Ang. Till next week. 405 00:19:55,540 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: I'm Steven Chow. Signing up. Bye for now.