1 00:00:03,269 --> 00:00:05,570 Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast. 2 00:00:08,300 --> 00:00:14,149 Speaker 2: Sometimes organizations or leaders unknowingly display certain behaviors that is discriminatory, 3 00:00:14,159 --> 00:00:15,970 Speaker 2: but the intention is not. So 4 00:00:15,979 --> 00:00:18,979 Speaker 1: where exactly does it stop becoming a joke? Because some 5 00:00:18,989 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: people might say I was just joking. Sometimes even in 6 00:00:21,690 --> 00:00:24,590 Speaker 1: the informal setting, you still have to watch out, it 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,329 Speaker 1: still sets a perception of you and where your values 8 00:00:27,340 --> 00:00:29,770 Speaker 1: or where your thoughts lie. How do you deal with 9 00:00:29,780 --> 00:00:32,139 Speaker 1: the retaliation of the repercussions? So 10 00:00:32,150 --> 00:00:35,110 Speaker 2: retaliation at times are real? All right, I kid you not. 11 00:00:36,930 --> 00:00:40,310 Speaker 1: Hello again. It's Tiffany and Gerald on the work it podcast. 12 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,830 Speaker 1: We like to see ourselves as your workplace friends here 13 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:46,990 Speaker 1: to help navigate some of the thorniest questions you have 14 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,110 Speaker 1: surrounding your careers and we hope you feel the same 15 00:00:50,119 --> 00:00:52,150 Speaker 1: way as well. So let us know if you have 16 00:00:52,255 --> 00:00:55,095 Speaker 1: any feedback or questions that we can answer for you. 17 00:00:55,205 --> 00:00:59,134 Speaker 1: We're at CN A podcasts at mediacorp.com dot SG. And 18 00:00:59,145 --> 00:01:01,474 Speaker 1: right at the end of this main conversation, we have 19 00:01:01,485 --> 00:01:03,805 Speaker 1: an ask me anything segment where we take a work 20 00:01:03,834 --> 00:01:06,554 Speaker 1: related question that you sent to us. So, Tiffany, what's 21 00:01:06,565 --> 00:01:07,474 Speaker 1: the question for today? 22 00:01:10,620 --> 00:01:14,370 Speaker 1: Today's a ma question is really I think kind of tricky. 23 00:01:14,639 --> 00:01:17,529 Speaker 1: It's about how to give professional feedback, not the good 24 00:01:17,540 --> 00:01:20,129 Speaker 1: kind to a friend who happens to work with you 25 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,139 Speaker 1: and that was sent in by Kay. So stay to 26 00:01:23,150 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: the end to hear what Kay is going through and 27 00:01:26,089 --> 00:01:28,419 Speaker 1: the advice that we can give him. Alright. So since 28 00:01:28,430 --> 00:01:31,589 Speaker 1: we are talking about tricky work situations that people face, 29 00:01:31,779 --> 00:01:34,500 Speaker 1: I thought I would ask you, Tiffany about your thoughts 30 00:01:34,510 --> 00:01:39,279 Speaker 1: about workplace discrimination to you. How does workplace discrimination look like? 31 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:40,529 Speaker 1: I would say 32 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,500 Speaker 1: there will be some form of power dynamics involved where 33 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:49,010 Speaker 1: somebody who is of a higher level may be taking 34 00:01:49,019 --> 00:01:52,790 Speaker 1: away certain opportunities from you. It could be sometimes even 35 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,980 Speaker 1: in the small talk, it makes you feel that this 36 00:01:55,989 --> 00:01:59,970 Speaker 1: person doesn't value you as an equal. Yeah. What about you? 37 00:01:59,980 --> 00:02:01,099 Speaker 1: I mean, have you seen 38 00:02:01,419 --> 00:02:04,860 Speaker 1: workplace discrimination happened around you before? I agree with you, 39 00:02:04,870 --> 00:02:07,559 Speaker 1: Tiffany because most of the time we know it's there, 40 00:02:07,569 --> 00:02:10,470 Speaker 1: it's just very hard to recognize it's also quite prevalent 41 00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:13,009 Speaker 1: but you feel it. But how do you pinpoint that 42 00:02:13,020 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: this is it? Exactly. So to help us pinpoint that 43 00:02:15,330 --> 00:02:18,619 Speaker 1: to draw some really clear lines around what is discrimination 44 00:02:18,630 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 1: at workplace and what is not as well. 45 00:02:20,559 --> 00:02:23,250 Speaker 1: We have Alvin goh with us today. He's the executive 46 00:02:23,258 --> 00:02:26,940 Speaker 1: director of the S hr I Singapore Human Resources Institute. 47 00:02:26,949 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: Welcome Alvin to the show. Hi, 48 00:02:29,050 --> 00:02:29,940 Speaker 2: thanks for having me. 49 00:02:29,949 --> 00:02:30,539 Speaker 1: Yes. So Alvin, I 50 00:02:30,550 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: want to start with defining what is workplace discrimination? Is 51 00:02:34,889 --> 00:02:35,549 Speaker 1: it very clear 52 00:02:35,559 --> 00:02:36,029 Speaker 1: cut? 53 00:02:36,139 --> 00:02:38,910 Speaker 2: I think it's to some extent, it's quite subjective, right? 54 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,949 Speaker 2: As you said, there must be a level of power 55 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:43,299 Speaker 2: play involved as well, 56 00:02:43,850 --> 00:02:49,929 Speaker 2: but sometimes organizations or leaders itself unknowingly display certain behaviors 57 00:02:49,940 --> 00:02:52,788 Speaker 2: that is discriminatory but the intention is not. But the 58 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:56,309 Speaker 2: impact or as you clearly put it, the felt fairness, 59 00:02:56,479 --> 00:02:58,389 Speaker 2: it seems that it is discriminatory. 60 00:02:58,860 --> 00:03:00,990 Speaker 2: I give you an example, it's very common in the 61 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,869 Speaker 2: workplace that high potential executives, those who can do more 62 00:03:05,070 --> 00:03:08,330 Speaker 2: and it could be perceived as discrimination, especially if you 63 00:03:08,339 --> 00:03:12,660 Speaker 2: have a high potential program that is not disclosed versus 64 00:03:12,669 --> 00:03:16,139 Speaker 2: an open concept one. And when certain bosses or leaders 65 00:03:16,149 --> 00:03:19,788 Speaker 2: put you on projects, certain assignments or give you a 66 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 2: special task and so forth, 67 00:03:21,470 --> 00:03:24,788 Speaker 2: that could be seen as a discriminatory against me whereby 68 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 2: I'm giving more work than my fellow colleagues, right? So again, 69 00:03:28,610 --> 00:03:32,850 Speaker 2: that's very subjective, but there's also the outright discrimination relating 70 00:03:32,860 --> 00:03:34,690 Speaker 2: to the protected characteristics 71 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:40,220 Speaker 2: like age, gender, nationality, race, abilities and so forth. Yeah. 72 00:03:40,229 --> 00:03:43,449 Speaker 2: And those will be very clearly outright. Sometimes it's very 73 00:03:43,460 --> 00:03:46,100 Speaker 2: common also to see in the workplace what the industry 74 00:03:46,110 --> 00:03:49,429 Speaker 2: called microaggression. OK. So for example, so for example, like 75 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,539 Speaker 2: passing a comment on race, OK, or passing 76 00:03:52,625 --> 00:03:56,345 Speaker 2: comment on gender saying like things like for example, all 77 00:03:56,354 --> 00:04:00,195 Speaker 2: women can multitask and men can't, that can be perceived 78 00:04:00,205 --> 00:04:02,565 Speaker 2: as positive and also negative at times 79 00:04:02,574 --> 00:04:02,654 Speaker 1: that's 80 00:04:02,664 --> 00:04:05,445 Speaker 1: true. Depending on the person who is listening to you. Exactly. 81 00:04:05,455 --> 00:04:05,684 Speaker 2: And 82 00:04:05,695 --> 00:04:08,645 Speaker 2: also the behavior that is actually put forth in terms 83 00:04:08,654 --> 00:04:10,085 Speaker 2: of the context and the content. 84 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,220 Speaker 2: I think all this must come into play body language, 85 00:04:13,229 --> 00:04:16,589 Speaker 2: tonality of how I convey the messaging could be perceived 86 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:18,220 Speaker 2: as discriminatory at times. So 87 00:04:18,230 --> 00:04:18,549 Speaker 1: where 88 00:04:18,559 --> 00:04:21,390 Speaker 1: exactly does it stop becoming a joke? Because some people 89 00:04:21,399 --> 00:04:22,899 Speaker 1: might say I was just joking 90 00:04:23,140 --> 00:04:24,700 Speaker 1: because we don't want to get to this stage as 91 00:04:24,709 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 1: well where even in the workplace, we do not feel 92 00:04:27,369 --> 00:04:30,790 Speaker 1: comfortable in joking with our colleagues because at that point 93 00:04:30,799 --> 00:04:32,890 Speaker 1: of time, maybe the relationship has kind of evolved to 94 00:04:32,899 --> 00:04:35,750 Speaker 1: become more of a friend, like a workplace friend and 95 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 1: then the other person may be a bit more sensitive. 96 00:04:38,049 --> 00:04:39,940 Speaker 1: So how do we know when we have crossed that 97 00:04:39,950 --> 00:04:40,399 Speaker 1: line? 98 00:04:40,410 --> 00:04:43,519 Speaker 2: So number one is pattern, is there a pattern whereby 99 00:04:43,529 --> 00:04:44,959 Speaker 2: the frequency is over and over 100 00:04:45,184 --> 00:04:47,415 Speaker 2: whereby you keep joking about it? And that's where you 101 00:04:47,424 --> 00:04:50,165 Speaker 2: clearly pointed out, there's a level of sensitivity that it 102 00:04:50,174 --> 00:04:52,654 Speaker 2: crosses the tipping point as why I always call it 103 00:04:52,863 --> 00:04:55,774 Speaker 2: and that should be help. But in all fairness in 104 00:04:55,785 --> 00:04:59,695 Speaker 2: the corporate environment, we should always refrain from joking about race, gender, 105 00:04:59,704 --> 00:05:02,794 Speaker 2: religion and all this aside, because after all, we want 106 00:05:02,803 --> 00:05:05,635 Speaker 2: to have that professional decor room in the workplace, I 107 00:05:05,644 --> 00:05:06,885 Speaker 2: think that's very important. 108 00:05:07,369 --> 00:05:11,208 Speaker 2: So jokes around such areas should be avoided or refrained 109 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:14,609 Speaker 2: unless you're in a social context, you're just having a 110 00:05:14,619 --> 00:05:18,510 Speaker 2: friendly banter. I think that's all right. But don't take 111 00:05:18,519 --> 00:05:21,390 Speaker 2: it too far and it becomes a regular habit or 112 00:05:21,399 --> 00:05:24,149 Speaker 2: pattern itself and that becomes a worrying sign. So 113 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: the 114 00:05:24,290 --> 00:05:27,750 Speaker 1: frequency, the frequency and the pattern of what's being said, 115 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:29,790 Speaker 1: I think it's very important. I agree with you. And 116 00:05:29,894 --> 00:05:33,144 Speaker 1: people will say that sometimes even in the informal setting 117 00:05:33,154 --> 00:05:35,234 Speaker 1: you still have to watch out. And because I know 118 00:05:35,244 --> 00:05:38,584 Speaker 1: those conversations over drinks, sometimes people remember and then they 119 00:05:38,595 --> 00:05:40,195 Speaker 1: bring it back into the office and they said this 120 00:05:40,204 --> 00:05:43,195 Speaker 1: person is always been saying these sort of things outside 121 00:05:43,204 --> 00:05:46,183 Speaker 1: of the office, it still sets the perception of you 122 00:05:46,195 --> 00:05:48,494 Speaker 1: and where your values or where your thoughts lie and 123 00:05:48,505 --> 00:05:49,945 Speaker 1: then you don't want to have this type of things 124 00:05:49,954 --> 00:05:52,315 Speaker 1: stick to you in the workplace because about professionalism, 125 00:05:52,579 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: I think these are some of the perspectives that you 126 00:05:54,329 --> 00:05:56,579 Speaker 1: don't have to articulate in any setting. So you mentioned 127 00:05:56,589 --> 00:05:58,500 Speaker 1: about things that are very clear, the clear lines that 128 00:05:58,510 --> 00:06:00,929 Speaker 1: we shouldn't cross. But what are some forms of like, 129 00:06:00,940 --> 00:06:04,540 Speaker 1: I guess not so clear types of discrimination where we 130 00:06:04,549 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: sometimes see in a workplace, 131 00:06:05,850 --> 00:06:09,579 Speaker 2: for example, your employee is having a hard day and 132 00:06:09,589 --> 00:06:11,519 Speaker 2: getting ready to go off work and you all, you 133 00:06:11,529 --> 00:06:13,989 Speaker 2: pile certain things and say, oh, please get this done 134 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,839 Speaker 2: and I need it by today itself. Five or six, right? 135 00:06:16,850 --> 00:06:19,429 Speaker 2: And you portray that it's a do or die type 136 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: of a document that you need to be processed and 137 00:06:21,209 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 2: everything 138 00:06:21,869 --> 00:06:25,089 Speaker 2: and it is deliberately done, right? The key thing here 139 00:06:25,100 --> 00:06:28,369 Speaker 2: is that there must be a sense of deliberateness whereby 140 00:06:28,529 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 2: the leader or the manager actually purposely or deliberately does 141 00:06:31,890 --> 00:06:34,730 Speaker 2: it to the employee, right? And I think that's the 142 00:06:34,738 --> 00:06:37,799 Speaker 2: areas that we don't see very clearly, but it exists 143 00:06:37,809 --> 00:06:38,738 Speaker 2: in the workplaces 144 00:06:38,750 --> 00:06:42,250 Speaker 1: because a leader might go, it's my job to delegate 145 00:06:42,260 --> 00:06:43,929 Speaker 1: tasks and I feel that you 146 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,209 Speaker 1: the right person for the job. So then you can't 147 00:06:46,220 --> 00:06:49,738 Speaker 1: even say that's discriminatory or like you are targeting me, right? 148 00:06:49,750 --> 00:06:51,910 Speaker 1: Because it's a he say she say type of 149 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:52,769 Speaker 1: situation. So 150 00:06:52,779 --> 00:06:55,969 Speaker 2: these are the areas that are extremely subjective. And as 151 00:06:55,980 --> 00:06:58,079 Speaker 2: you clear point, I say, you say, or some of 152 00:06:58,089 --> 00:07:00,738 Speaker 2: these solid kind of thing and that's the element that 153 00:07:00,750 --> 00:07:04,529 Speaker 2: we are trying to advocate for leaders, especially to be 154 00:07:04,540 --> 00:07:08,000 Speaker 2: mindful of such behaviors and to refrain from such behaviors, 155 00:07:08,109 --> 00:07:11,540 Speaker 2: especially in workplaces whereby we know here in corporate Singapore 156 00:07:11,549 --> 00:07:13,570 Speaker 2: that stress elements are pretty high. 157 00:07:13,970 --> 00:07:16,959 Speaker 2: There's an element whereby today a lot of us are 158 00:07:16,970 --> 00:07:20,369 Speaker 2: caregivers at homes. We are also so breadwinners and so forth. 159 00:07:20,450 --> 00:07:24,059 Speaker 2: So there are multi areas whereby it stresses the employee 160 00:07:24,070 --> 00:07:28,130 Speaker 2: out and workplace burnout, workplace well-being is a very important 161 00:07:28,140 --> 00:07:31,420 Speaker 2: concept that we also need to take into the creation, right? 162 00:07:31,730 --> 00:07:34,470 Speaker 2: And I do see my previous employers and even 163 00:07:34,739 --> 00:07:38,739 Speaker 2: the work that sh I does there is always this microaggression, 164 00:07:38,750 --> 00:07:43,619 Speaker 2: this micro discriminatory behaviors that exist and it's very hard 165 00:07:43,630 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: as you can point to pinpoint. That's not right. But 166 00:07:46,450 --> 00:07:48,690 Speaker 2: the key thing is that how do we become more 167 00:07:48,700 --> 00:07:50,980 Speaker 2: humanizing in our workplace? I think that's the thing that 168 00:07:50,989 --> 00:07:53,010 Speaker 2: we're trying to put forth in a corporate environment. 169 00:07:53,029 --> 00:07:55,239 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I mean, you talked about how leaders 170 00:07:55,250 --> 00:07:57,839 Speaker 1: should be more mindful and I like how you brought 171 00:07:57,850 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: in even the wellness perspective, not just of discrimination. right? 172 00:08:01,019 --> 00:08:04,989 Speaker 1: But as an employee, sometimes when you face these microaggressions 173 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,980 Speaker 1: or these behaviors, it's really very difficult to bring them up. 174 00:08:07,989 --> 00:08:10,230 Speaker 1: A lot of the people that I've spoken to, they 175 00:08:10,239 --> 00:08:12,779 Speaker 1: often resort to, I just leave the job. Maybe I 176 00:08:12,790 --> 00:08:14,429 Speaker 1: can go to a better place. This place is too 177 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:17,350 Speaker 1: toxic for me, right? That's the language that they always use. 178 00:08:17,359 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: It 179 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 1: quite ashamed because maybe the person is a good performer, right? 180 00:08:19,929 --> 00:08:21,790 Speaker 1: And there were a lot of track record that's there 181 00:08:21,799 --> 00:08:25,220 Speaker 1: being left behind. So in terms of how individual employees 182 00:08:25,230 --> 00:08:27,470 Speaker 1: can respond or they can call out what are some 183 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,100 Speaker 1: of the best practices or things that you have seen 184 00:08:30,109 --> 00:08:30,369 Speaker 1: from your 185 00:08:30,380 --> 00:08:30,980 Speaker 1: experience. 186 00:08:30,989 --> 00:08:34,140 Speaker 2: So under the workplace finance legislation, WFL 187 00:08:34,780 --> 00:08:37,549 Speaker 2: in fact, companies must have a grievance policy and a 188 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,270 Speaker 2: whistleblowing policy. Some large organizations do have a whistleblowing policy 189 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:44,900 Speaker 2: in place whereby they allow employees to surface up certain 190 00:08:44,909 --> 00:08:49,130 Speaker 2: grievances that they have certain discriminatory or workplace areas like 191 00:08:49,140 --> 00:08:53,159 Speaker 2: harassment and everything up to the respective departments. It could 192 00:08:53,169 --> 00:08:54,770 Speaker 2: be internal audits 193 00:08:54,895 --> 00:08:58,054 Speaker 2: to be the legal department or hr department as well. Right. 194 00:08:58,065 --> 00:09:00,375 Speaker 2: So there are policies in place today. I would like 195 00:09:00,385 --> 00:09:04,554 Speaker 2: to think that more than not have already adopted orders itself. 196 00:09:04,565 --> 00:09:04,804 Speaker 2: So 197 00:09:04,815 --> 00:09:07,114 Speaker 1: these are anonymous or do you have to put in 198 00:09:07,125 --> 00:09:08,775 Speaker 1: your name? If you're making a complaint, 199 00:09:08,804 --> 00:09:11,994 Speaker 2: you need not put in your name but these functions, right? 200 00:09:12,005 --> 00:09:15,794 Speaker 2: This department's legal hr or internal audits and everything when 201 00:09:15,804 --> 00:09:18,314 Speaker 2: the moment the employees surface up. Of course, let's say 202 00:09:18,325 --> 00:09:19,275 Speaker 2: it's via email, 203 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 2: the organization will know who the complainant is itself, right? 204 00:09:22,650 --> 00:09:25,380 Speaker 2: Who the victim is and also who the actor or 205 00:09:25,390 --> 00:09:28,380 Speaker 2: aggressor is in in this case. And if it warrants 206 00:09:28,390 --> 00:09:32,359 Speaker 2: an investigation, then that department will then usually it will 207 00:09:32,369 --> 00:09:34,950 Speaker 2: be the hr or legal will then take on that 208 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:39,869 Speaker 2: role of investigating the accuracy of this complaint, right? And 209 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,718 Speaker 2: there are policies that very clearly stated, the certain guidelines 210 00:09:42,729 --> 00:09:45,439 Speaker 2: like within five working days, seven working days, I will 211 00:09:45,450 --> 00:09:46,780 Speaker 2: get back to you and everything 212 00:09:47,010 --> 00:09:51,570 Speaker 2: and these are good practices not to become a, you know, 213 00:09:51,590 --> 00:09:56,460 Speaker 2: a quite focf or complaints type of organization. Alright. But 214 00:09:56,469 --> 00:09:59,589 Speaker 2: it's progressive. It creates a safe environment 215 00:09:59,890 --> 00:10:02,270 Speaker 2: that the employees know that. Hey, look, there's an avenue 216 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,348 Speaker 2: for me to raise up any grievances that I have. 217 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:05,699 Speaker 1: But it 218 00:10:05,710 --> 00:10:09,039 Speaker 1: requires so much courage from the person who is at 219 00:10:09,049 --> 00:10:12,330 Speaker 1: the receiving end of this kind of behavior to lodge 220 00:10:12,340 --> 00:10:15,460 Speaker 1: a complaint. The manpower ministry recently put out the fair 221 00:10:15,469 --> 00:10:19,909 Speaker 1: employment practices report 2023. And it shows that actually more 222 00:10:19,919 --> 00:10:23,590 Speaker 1: people are not seeking help when they feel discriminated when 223 00:10:23,599 --> 00:10:26,140 Speaker 1: they compare 2023 to 2022. 224 00:10:26,390 --> 00:10:29,710 Speaker 1: So a lot of them are saying that they fear 225 00:10:29,799 --> 00:10:33,789 Speaker 1: the repercussions, they fear the retaliation because one of the 226 00:10:33,799 --> 00:10:35,978 Speaker 1: things that we have talked about in previous episodes is 227 00:10:35,989 --> 00:10:38,969 Speaker 1: if you are in a small team and you face 228 00:10:38,979 --> 00:10:43,090 Speaker 1: discriminatory behavior from your boss, you make that complaint. I 229 00:10:43,099 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: think it's quite easy for the boss to figure out 230 00:10:45,090 --> 00:10:46,939 Speaker 1: who among your team members is the one who made 231 00:10:46,950 --> 00:10:47,598 Speaker 1: the complaint. 232 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,979 Speaker 1: So how do you deal with the retaliation of the 233 00:10:50,989 --> 00:10:52,799 Speaker 1: repercussions that come along the way? So 234 00:10:52,809 --> 00:10:56,039 Speaker 2: retaliation at times are real. Alright, I kid you not 235 00:10:56,049 --> 00:10:59,780 Speaker 2: and therefore employees would then take a backseat and say 236 00:10:59,789 --> 00:11:02,299 Speaker 2: I need to protect my rise ball, right? But the 237 00:11:02,309 --> 00:11:04,700 Speaker 2: problem again, in what we are seeing is that when 238 00:11:04,710 --> 00:11:08,020 Speaker 2: such behaviors happen, when you don't lodge a complaint, whereby 239 00:11:08,030 --> 00:11:11,489 Speaker 2: it's a real discriminatory or workplace bullying issue, then you 240 00:11:11,500 --> 00:11:14,719 Speaker 2: are allowing the perpetrator to get away scot free and 241 00:11:14,729 --> 00:11:16,218 Speaker 2: that behavior will then 242 00:11:16,530 --> 00:11:19,210 Speaker 2: morph into what I call a toxic environment or toxic 243 00:11:19,219 --> 00:11:22,900 Speaker 2: workplace and it does the organization no good, right. So 244 00:11:22,909 --> 00:11:25,659 Speaker 2: what I've seen as best practices, some of the organizations 245 00:11:25,669 --> 00:11:29,669 Speaker 2: have done are that leadership, commitment, education and training, right? 246 00:11:29,770 --> 00:11:33,349 Speaker 2: A no tolerance policy on retaliation. These are some of 247 00:11:33,359 --> 00:11:36,349 Speaker 2: the best practices out there and it takes a lot 248 00:11:36,359 --> 00:11:39,270 Speaker 2: of the CEO or the MD or the senior management 249 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,030 Speaker 2: to say these are not tolerable, these are out of 250 00:11:42,039 --> 00:11:42,950 Speaker 2: bounds areas 251 00:11:43,299 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 2: and they educate, they send their line managers for training, 252 00:11:46,359 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 2: they send their employees making sure that they are clear 253 00:11:49,090 --> 00:11:51,949 Speaker 2: on the policies, getting the hr departments and so forth 254 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 2: to articulate how employees could lodge a grievance and so forth. 255 00:11:56,179 --> 00:11:59,140 Speaker 2: And on top of that, while internal resolution is best, 256 00:11:59,270 --> 00:12:02,260 Speaker 2: there are also the external platforms like for example, to 257 00:12:02,270 --> 00:12:02,830 Speaker 2: tell them 258 00:12:03,070 --> 00:12:06,020 Speaker 2: even to mom and stuff like that, that employees who 259 00:12:06,030 --> 00:12:08,650 Speaker 2: feel that if they think that internally it is not 260 00:12:08,659 --> 00:12:12,169 Speaker 2: being addressed correctly, they can also lodge it to the regulators. 261 00:12:12,179 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: Can I just follow up? How does the policy of 262 00:12:14,010 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: zero tolerance for retaliation look like, let's say for example, 263 00:12:17,849 --> 00:12:20,479 Speaker 1: this is my manager, I'm talking about, right? They are 264 00:12:20,489 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: humans as well and obviously it feels very personal, it's 265 00:12:23,409 --> 00:12:26,939 Speaker 1: an attack on this person. And if after investigation, the 266 00:12:26,950 --> 00:12:29,608 Speaker 1: company has said, ok, it's just good for both parties 267 00:12:29,619 --> 00:12:32,159 Speaker 1: to talk it over. It's not that bad. 268 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 1: And then now you have to go back to work 269 00:12:33,690 --> 00:12:37,020 Speaker 1: with your manager. How does the zero tolerance to retaliation 270 00:12:37,030 --> 00:12:37,580 Speaker 1: look like? 271 00:12:37,590 --> 00:12:40,989 Speaker 2: So to support zero tolerance, that's where the progressive disciplinary 272 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 2: processes come into play from counseling on the supervisor. Sometimes 273 00:12:45,289 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 2: the supervisor might not be knowing that he or she 274 00:12:47,690 --> 00:12:49,859 Speaker 2: is performing on displaying such behavior. 275 00:12:50,109 --> 00:12:54,460 Speaker 2: So we will start with counseling of the supervisors, verbal warning, 276 00:12:54,549 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 2: first letter warnings, second letter, then maybe termination and dismissal. 277 00:12:58,409 --> 00:13:01,530 Speaker 2: So these are the progressive disciplinary acts or policies that 278 00:13:01,539 --> 00:13:05,689 Speaker 2: companies could actually adopt. And I see best sometimes whereby 279 00:13:05,869 --> 00:13:09,409 Speaker 2: interventions are done at the counseling stage before allowing 280 00:13:09,710 --> 00:13:15,140 Speaker 2: any developing situations from becoming a huge issue for the organization. Right. 281 00:13:15,229 --> 00:13:18,119 Speaker 2: Some companies have got, as I said, very transparent policies 282 00:13:18,130 --> 00:13:21,109 Speaker 2: and they address this right at the start, right? Not 283 00:13:21,119 --> 00:13:24,119 Speaker 2: allowing such areas to blow out of proportion. I think 284 00:13:24,130 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 2: that's very important by the time it blows out of proportion. 285 00:13:27,390 --> 00:13:31,359 Speaker 2: Organizations as a whole suffers from our productivity issues 286 00:13:31,619 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 2: because employees are not happy resignations could be higher, attrition 287 00:13:34,969 --> 00:13:36,819 Speaker 2: rate could be higher. And on top of that, there's 288 00:13:36,830 --> 00:13:39,539 Speaker 2: also the reputation risk that one could actually look into. 289 00:13:39,549 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 1: Ok? But after step one, if everything is resolved, everybody 290 00:13:42,289 --> 00:13:44,510 Speaker 1: say sorry to each other, everything is cleared, then you 291 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:45,669 Speaker 1: have to go back to work with your manager. 292 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:49,369 Speaker 2: How I think there will be a moment of awkward awkwardness, 293 00:13:49,380 --> 00:13:51,979 Speaker 2: I don't disagree with you, right? But I think it 294 00:13:51,989 --> 00:13:54,659 Speaker 2: takes a level of professional from the supervisor of the 295 00:13:54,669 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 2: leadership perspective to actually want to make sure that 296 00:13:57,659 --> 00:14:01,049 Speaker 2: my behavior, it's aligned to your values and making sure 297 00:14:01,059 --> 00:14:04,859 Speaker 2: that I will create that safe environment for open professional discussion. 298 00:14:05,030 --> 00:14:08,799 Speaker 1: If as the leader, it was really truly a misunderstanding, 299 00:14:08,809 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: you also feel apologetic about that and then you would 300 00:14:11,289 --> 00:14:13,700 Speaker 1: be a bit more cautious that maybe your words were 301 00:14:13,710 --> 00:14:15,718 Speaker 1: not taken as a joke. And in that way, you 302 00:14:15,729 --> 00:14:18,419 Speaker 1: will put yourself in that person's shoes rather than see 303 00:14:18,429 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 1: it as. 304 00:14:18,785 --> 00:14:21,556 Speaker 1: Why did you attack me? Why did you complain about me? Now, 305 00:14:21,565 --> 00:14:23,145 Speaker 1: it's my turn to get back at you even though 306 00:14:23,156 --> 00:14:25,005 Speaker 1: I had said sorry beforehand. 307 00:14:25,015 --> 00:14:27,575 Speaker 2: And I see this a lot of cases, not only 308 00:14:27,585 --> 00:14:30,575 Speaker 2: from your first time leaders, but across the board, right? 309 00:14:30,666 --> 00:14:33,736 Speaker 2: The reason is because when we develop leaders, their leadership 310 00:14:33,745 --> 00:14:36,125 Speaker 2: qualities are not developed at the start, there's a lot 311 00:14:36,135 --> 00:14:39,226 Speaker 2: of emphasis on technical training. It's only when we see 312 00:14:39,236 --> 00:14:39,806 Speaker 2: this person's 313 00:14:39,911 --> 00:14:42,142 Speaker 2: need to be able to perform well. And therefore I'm 314 00:14:42,151 --> 00:14:45,210 Speaker 2: considering you for a bigger job or leadership role. And 315 00:14:45,221 --> 00:14:48,651 Speaker 2: that's when I start thinking about your development as a leader, 316 00:14:48,812 --> 00:14:51,392 Speaker 2: but by the time it's somewhat too late and how 317 00:14:51,401 --> 00:14:54,452 Speaker 2: many companies out there really have that mindset in terms 318 00:14:54,461 --> 00:14:55,731 Speaker 2: of developing leaders for the 319 00:14:55,742 --> 00:14:56,171 Speaker 2: future? 320 00:14:56,182 --> 00:14:59,081 Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with Alvin about the supervisors themselves, the 321 00:14:59,091 --> 00:15:02,041 Speaker 1: leaders themselves, they need a proper training and not everyone 322 00:15:02,052 --> 00:15:04,331 Speaker 1: who is a good performer is a good leader, right? 323 00:15:04,341 --> 00:15:07,401 Speaker 1: And when it comes to this thing about discrimination and 324 00:15:07,411 --> 00:15:08,531 Speaker 1: how do you work with each other 325 00:15:08,799 --> 00:15:10,820 Speaker 1: when we talked a lot about how it's like the 326 00:15:10,830 --> 00:15:13,659 Speaker 1: policies of it, how do we deal with it, the penalties? 327 00:15:13,669 --> 00:15:16,150 Speaker 1: And I'm just wondering whether is there a space for 328 00:15:16,159 --> 00:15:18,359 Speaker 1: this course for people to come together to talk about 329 00:15:18,369 --> 00:15:21,830 Speaker 1: what has happened before it leads to escalation of the policy. So, 330 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,260 Speaker 1: before you complain to, hr, can you all talk about 331 00:15:25,270 --> 00:15:28,070 Speaker 1: it for the person who feels discriminated against to go 332 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:30,169 Speaker 1: to that leader and just, you know, have the conversation 333 00:15:30,179 --> 00:15:32,099 Speaker 1: like what's happening, but you need psychological 334 00:15:32,205 --> 00:15:34,875 Speaker 1: safety first. Right. Yeah. But because if it affects you 335 00:15:34,885 --> 00:15:36,916 Speaker 1: that much, it's also very hard for you to go 336 00:15:36,926 --> 00:15:40,486 Speaker 1: to the policy because you probably online anyway. Yeah. I mean, today, 337 00:15:40,495 --> 00:15:42,585 Speaker 1: if I will flip the rules around, if I'm the leader, 338 00:15:42,596 --> 00:15:44,096 Speaker 1: maybe I will prefer the person to come and speak 339 00:15:44,106 --> 00:15:46,156 Speaker 1: to me first. Right? Because I was saying some leaders 340 00:15:46,166 --> 00:15:48,466 Speaker 1: they don't know, it's a blind spot and they would 341 00:15:48,476 --> 00:15:50,645 Speaker 1: really appreciate having the employee come and speak to them 342 00:15:50,656 --> 00:15:53,106 Speaker 1: first and maybe even there was a good chance to 343 00:15:53,116 --> 00:15:55,505 Speaker 1: call them out. Yeah. Without public shaming. Yes. Correct. 344 00:15:55,721 --> 00:15:58,111 Speaker 1: Have that step down first. Right. Yeah, because if today 345 00:15:58,122 --> 00:16:00,361 Speaker 1: they are really in a category of leaders who are 346 00:16:00,372 --> 00:16:03,692 Speaker 1: not properly trained. So technically not their fault. They didn't 347 00:16:03,702 --> 00:16:06,062 Speaker 1: have the right experiences or the right knowledge to handle 348 00:16:06,072 --> 00:16:09,072 Speaker 1: these sort of things. They're not aware, blind spots. So 349 00:16:09,081 --> 00:16:12,562 Speaker 1: maybe having that 1 to 1 conversation first. Both parties 350 00:16:12,572 --> 00:16:14,591 Speaker 1: have to be mature about it, not just the leader, right? 351 00:16:14,601 --> 00:16:16,911 Speaker 1: Even the employee, you have to be professional about it 352 00:16:16,921 --> 00:16:19,702 Speaker 1: to bring up what you're feeling uncomfortable about. Then you 353 00:16:19,711 --> 00:16:21,271 Speaker 1: have that space for discussion 354 00:16:21,539 --> 00:16:23,469 Speaker 1: and then if it gets worse, then you activate the 355 00:16:23,479 --> 00:16:25,700 Speaker 1: red button. Yeah, it's good that you brought up that 356 00:16:25,710 --> 00:16:28,070 Speaker 1: point because I think it segways very nicely to my 357 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,929 Speaker 1: next question, which is what if my company doesn't have 358 00:16:30,940 --> 00:16:34,150 Speaker 1: a proper channel for me to make a complaint? And 359 00:16:34,159 --> 00:16:36,059 Speaker 1: I feel that I need to press that red button. 360 00:16:36,070 --> 00:16:38,559 Speaker 1: I cannot talk to my leader anymore, face to face. 361 00:16:38,570 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: Then what can I do? 362 00:16:39,719 --> 00:16:43,280 Speaker 2: There is the external parties, external platforms like mom or 363 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:44,090 Speaker 2: to app 364 00:16:44,159 --> 00:16:44,390 Speaker 1: as well? 365 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,479 Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, and so forth to actually put that former official. 366 00:16:47,770 --> 00:16:49,500 Speaker 2: But at the same time, if employees out there who 367 00:16:49,510 --> 00:16:51,549 Speaker 2: feel that they've been aggrieved and there are evidence to 368 00:16:51,559 --> 00:16:54,330 Speaker 2: suggest so feel free to reach out to sh I itself. 369 00:16:54,609 --> 00:16:58,239 Speaker 1: Right? So you guys can help with mediation. That's right. OK. Yeah. Yeah, 370 00:16:58,250 --> 00:17:00,539 Speaker 1: I think that's what's needed a lot more than the 371 00:17:00,549 --> 00:17:01,830 Speaker 1: penalty. Mediation. 372 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,619 Speaker 2: So mediation is very important, right? Don't go towards the 373 00:17:04,630 --> 00:17:08,660 Speaker 2: serious side of the disciplinary process. Counseling, mediation is always 374 00:17:08,670 --> 00:17:09,599 Speaker 2: the best part of call. I 375 00:17:09,609 --> 00:17:13,109 Speaker 1: feel when can you make it a legal case without 376 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:16,270 Speaker 1: burning bridges? Especially if the industry is very small, 377 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,208 Speaker 2: the thing that I always say, right, never do the 378 00:17:19,219 --> 00:17:20,130 Speaker 2: wrong thing, right? 379 00:17:20,390 --> 00:17:23,969 Speaker 1: Never do the wrong thing, right? OK. Right. Explain. 380 00:17:24,829 --> 00:17:29,060 Speaker 2: So to me is this if there's really concrete material 381 00:17:29,069 --> 00:17:33,459 Speaker 2: evidence that it's a very serious workplace bullying or harassment case, 382 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:36,869 Speaker 2: then please do the right thing. OK. And launched it 383 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 2: because you will never know the perpetrators extent. 384 00:17:40,290 --> 00:17:41,020 Speaker 1: True. You might not be the 385 00:17:41,030 --> 00:17:41,609 Speaker 1: only victim. 386 00:17:41,619 --> 00:17:46,290 Speaker 2: Exactly. In fact, voicing out might curtail these behaviors earlier 387 00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:50,020 Speaker 2: on and not allowing the perpetrator or the aggressor 388 00:17:50,310 --> 00:17:53,479 Speaker 2: to have his or her own way. Right? And destroying 389 00:17:53,489 --> 00:17:56,129 Speaker 2: the corporate culture that leaders are trying so hard to build. Hm, 390 00:17:56,140 --> 00:17:59,810 Speaker 2: being a safe environment, being a good workplace environment and 391 00:17:59,819 --> 00:18:02,290 Speaker 2: so forth. So therefore, I always say, please don't do 392 00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:05,849 Speaker 2: the wrong thing right by withholding orders or for fear 393 00:18:05,859 --> 00:18:09,989 Speaker 2: of burning bridges. If your companies are very progressive and 394 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,530 Speaker 2: if it's the perpetrator is found to be very aggressive 395 00:18:12,540 --> 00:18:15,849 Speaker 2: and found material evidence and so forth, then the companies 396 00:18:15,859 --> 00:18:17,369 Speaker 2: themselves must do the right thing, right? 397 00:18:17,839 --> 00:18:21,459 Speaker 2: And therefore it warrants a termination on dismissal of the aggressor. 398 00:18:21,469 --> 00:18:25,079 Speaker 2: Then so be it right. Today's social media is very 399 00:18:25,089 --> 00:18:29,099 Speaker 2: loud and imagine if an employee who has been aggrieved 400 00:18:29,199 --> 00:18:32,390 Speaker 2: and the grievances are not addressed. Social media is a 401 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,579 Speaker 2: platform that will kill your reputation. 402 00:18:34,589 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 1: That's 403 00:18:34,689 --> 00:18:38,410 Speaker 1: true. So you have to take every complaint seriously, investigate 404 00:18:38,420 --> 00:18:39,300 Speaker 1: it properly, make 405 00:18:39,405 --> 00:18:42,635 Speaker 1: sure that you're fair to both parties as well. I 406 00:18:42,915 --> 00:18:45,785 Speaker 1: think these are the, I would say very serious cases 407 00:18:45,795 --> 00:18:47,744 Speaker 1: and like we said at the start of this podcast, 408 00:18:47,755 --> 00:18:50,905 Speaker 1: most of the cases that we are seeing are subjective, 409 00:18:50,915 --> 00:18:53,504 Speaker 1: very small types of ways that it is like, I 410 00:18:53,515 --> 00:18:56,984 Speaker 1: think this person is discriminating against me but these are 411 00:18:56,994 --> 00:18:58,344 Speaker 1: things that I don't have evidence 412 00:18:58,354 --> 00:18:58,785 Speaker 1: for. 413 00:18:58,805 --> 00:19:01,005 Speaker 2: So I think there's a lot of work to be done. 414 00:19:01,155 --> 00:19:04,905 Speaker 2: Organizations need to have policies in place procedures in place, 415 00:19:05,199 --> 00:19:10,599 Speaker 2: but more importantly, continuously to inculcate a inclusive culture, right? 416 00:19:10,609 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 2: I think that's very important. I also develop future leaders. 417 00:19:14,319 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 2: I always bring this quote that our late founding father, 418 00:19:17,569 --> 00:19:19,660 Speaker 2: Mr Lee said, and this is what he said, he 419 00:19:19,819 --> 00:19:23,420 Speaker 2: has never seen a man or women just by attending 420 00:19:23,430 --> 00:19:27,550 Speaker 2: a leadership program become a leader overnight. So if I 421 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,030 Speaker 2: read his words very closely, it means that leadership development 422 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,300 Speaker 2: is an ongoing journey, right? 423 00:19:33,589 --> 00:19:36,349 Speaker 2: And we will never know even for me as Ed 424 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:40,250 Speaker 2: or sh for me, my leadership journey is a continuous process. 425 00:19:40,459 --> 00:19:43,169 Speaker 2: I think it's important to have that mindset. Then progressive 426 00:19:43,180 --> 00:19:46,209 Speaker 2: people practices can then be in place into our organization. 427 00:19:46,859 --> 00:19:49,449 Speaker 1: It really starts with the leader being open, 428 00:19:49,719 --> 00:19:53,139 Speaker 1: looking at every experience as a form of development. Even 429 00:19:53,150 --> 00:19:54,938 Speaker 1: the feedback that is given by the staff can be 430 00:19:54,949 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: seen an area of growth as well. Exactly, since we 431 00:19:57,569 --> 00:20:00,699 Speaker 1: are on the topic of leaders. So from a manager's perspective, 432 00:20:00,709 --> 00:20:03,239 Speaker 1: what if I feel that this particular staff is not 433 00:20:03,250 --> 00:20:04,660 Speaker 1: really a good fit for the job? 434 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,709 Speaker 1: So I don't give them as many tasks or I 435 00:20:07,719 --> 00:20:10,219 Speaker 1: give them the task that is not too urgent, but 436 00:20:10,229 --> 00:20:13,419 Speaker 1: this person claims that I'm discriminating him or her. How 437 00:20:13,430 --> 00:20:14,030 Speaker 1: do I deal with 438 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:14,219 Speaker 1: that? 439 00:20:14,229 --> 00:20:16,939 Speaker 2: So then you have to understand why is that staff 440 00:20:16,949 --> 00:20:19,599 Speaker 2: or the employee not a good fit to deliver on 441 00:20:19,609 --> 00:20:22,180 Speaker 2: those tasks. Most of the time, what I see is 442 00:20:22,189 --> 00:20:25,380 Speaker 2: a trust issue. And to me trust has got three elements, 443 00:20:25,650 --> 00:20:28,969 Speaker 2: whether the employee itself has got the competencies, skill sets 444 00:20:28,979 --> 00:20:31,930 Speaker 2: and knowledge to do the job, the intention of the employee, 445 00:20:31,939 --> 00:20:33,739 Speaker 2: whether he's a team player or otherwise. 446 00:20:34,050 --> 00:20:37,659 Speaker 2: And finally, whether this employee itself is reliable, trust in 447 00:20:37,670 --> 00:20:40,750 Speaker 2: the workplace between employer and employee takes time to be built. 448 00:20:41,109 --> 00:20:43,300 Speaker 2: And I think if you address all these three issues, 449 00:20:43,310 --> 00:20:46,270 Speaker 2: starting from the employer's perspective, to build competencies, 450 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,629 Speaker 2: I think that over time, that employee would then be 451 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,540 Speaker 2: able to take on those tasks that you mentioned itself 452 00:20:52,739 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 2: rather than saying, oh, because you are not able to 453 00:20:55,689 --> 00:20:57,219 Speaker 2: do it. Therefore, I'm not going to give you this 454 00:20:57,229 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 2: important role itself. Look, every employee is an asset to 455 00:21:01,290 --> 00:21:04,739 Speaker 2: the organization, right? Yes, they are high performers and they 456 00:21:04,750 --> 00:21:07,719 Speaker 2: are good performers, right? And of course, sometimes they are 457 00:21:07,729 --> 00:21:10,239 Speaker 2: average performers, as I always say, as we move the 458 00:21:10,250 --> 00:21:13,139 Speaker 2: bell curve to the right, please never forget the people 459 00:21:13,150 --> 00:21:15,239 Speaker 2: on the left or the bell curve. And that's when 460 00:21:15,250 --> 00:21:16,459 Speaker 2: development takes place. 461 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,719 Speaker 2: Even our high potentials. One day. If you don't develop them, 462 00:21:19,729 --> 00:21:21,790 Speaker 2: you don't take care of them one day as we 463 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:22,979 Speaker 2: move the bell curve to the right, 464 00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:25,839 Speaker 2: they will end up people on the left, right? I 465 00:21:25,849 --> 00:21:28,319 Speaker 2: think that's the mindset that organizations must take 466 00:21:28,329 --> 00:21:28,609 Speaker 2: on. 467 00:21:28,869 --> 00:21:31,540 Speaker 1: I think it takes a lot of explanation and communication, 468 00:21:31,550 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 1: very clear communication on why certain things are being repelled, 469 00:21:34,369 --> 00:21:37,319 Speaker 1: why certain decisions are made so that the employees, they 470 00:21:37,329 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 1: don't feel like these are signals of like discrimination or 471 00:21:40,410 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 1: maybe even quiet firing kind of signals. I think a 472 00:21:43,170 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: leader would need to explain clearly why are certain things 473 00:21:45,530 --> 00:21:48,079 Speaker 1: being done. So that at least you set the record straight. 474 00:21:48,089 --> 00:21:50,079 Speaker 1: One of the things that we are talking about here 475 00:21:50,089 --> 00:21:52,609 Speaker 1: being is very key is that we got to treat 476 00:21:52,619 --> 00:21:53,079 Speaker 1: the workplace 477 00:21:53,130 --> 00:21:56,550 Speaker 1: as a human place rather than treat people as numbers 478 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: to achieve your goals. You have to put your people first. 479 00:21:59,599 --> 00:22:01,790 Speaker 1: I mean, if anybody who is listening in at this 480 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:03,709 Speaker 1: point of time and they come to this point of 481 00:22:03,719 --> 00:22:06,300 Speaker 1: the time where they go, OK, I can identify signs 482 00:22:06,310 --> 00:22:08,949 Speaker 1: that I've been discriminated. I hope that they would feel 483 00:22:08,959 --> 00:22:12,839 Speaker 1: empowered enough to do something, maybe speak to their leaders first, 484 00:22:12,849 --> 00:22:16,650 Speaker 1: the person who maybe is the perpetrator or maybe their 485 00:22:16,660 --> 00:22:19,209 Speaker 1: leader who is of a safe space, they can talk 486 00:22:19,219 --> 00:22:21,438 Speaker 1: to them about it. Tell them this is how I've 487 00:22:21,449 --> 00:22:22,869 Speaker 1: been feeling. This is what I've seen 488 00:22:23,430 --> 00:22:25,670 Speaker 1: air it with somebody else as well, right? To see 489 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,300 Speaker 1: whether are you sensitive to see whether are you just 490 00:22:28,310 --> 00:22:31,300 Speaker 1: over imagining? Yes. Correct. Because you don't want to escalate it. 491 00:22:31,310 --> 00:22:33,420 Speaker 1: And then for people to say actually there was nothing 492 00:22:33,430 --> 00:22:35,390 Speaker 1: and then you also feel like, oh, ok, then maybe 493 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,660 Speaker 1: the next time it happens again, you start second guessing yourself. 494 00:22:38,670 --> 00:22:41,219 Speaker 1: So check in with somebody first and if in doubt, 495 00:22:41,229 --> 00:22:43,379 Speaker 1: there are always, you know, places that you can seek 496 00:22:43,390 --> 00:22:45,659 Speaker 1: help from whether it is it within or outside of 497 00:22:45,670 --> 00:22:48,369 Speaker 1: your company. So thank you so much Alvin for coming 498 00:22:48,380 --> 00:22:51,089 Speaker 1: on and sharing this clear insight to us. Thank you. 499 00:22:51,209 --> 00:22:52,409 Speaker 2: Welcome. Thank you very much. 500 00:22:56,469 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: Hi, we're back with another a ma question. So let's 501 00:23:00,130 --> 00:23:04,310 Speaker 1: dive in. Today's question was sent in by our listener. Kay, 502 00:23:04,619 --> 00:23:07,630 Speaker 1: it was quite a long one. So I actually wrote 503 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 1: back and asked Kay more follow up questions. Well, in 504 00:23:10,890 --> 00:23:13,449 Speaker 1: a nutshell, Kay is working with somebody who does 505 00:23:13,535 --> 00:23:16,635 Speaker 1: work well in a team, several examples he gave is 506 00:23:16,645 --> 00:23:20,754 Speaker 1: that this person showed prejudice towards another colleague, created a 507 00:23:20,765 --> 00:23:25,035 Speaker 1: fearful workspace for a female coworker and he doesn't stick 508 00:23:25,045 --> 00:23:29,063 Speaker 1: to commitments or mutually agreed work schedules. Sometimes he even 509 00:23:29,074 --> 00:23:32,275 Speaker 1: doesn't show up for work while the problem is, here's 510 00:23:32,285 --> 00:23:35,795 Speaker 1: the kicker. He's friends with the director and the co-founder 511 00:23:35,805 --> 00:23:39,114 Speaker 1: of the company, but get this. Ok. So many twists, 512 00:23:39,530 --> 00:23:42,589 Speaker 1: the leadership has decided that he isn't a good fit 513 00:23:42,599 --> 00:23:45,670 Speaker 1: for the company and they are planning to let him go. However, 514 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,218 Speaker 1: it's a small company with only six people. No hr 515 00:23:49,290 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: everyone is worried that he won't receive the firing news 516 00:23:52,650 --> 00:23:53,188 Speaker 1: that well, 517 00:23:53,439 --> 00:23:55,550 Speaker 1: they are concerned that now the friendship is on the 518 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,979 Speaker 1: line And so Kay wants to know how can they 519 00:23:57,989 --> 00:24:01,140 Speaker 1: navigate this situation? Wow, this is a really very long 520 00:24:02,209 --> 00:24:04,930 Speaker 1: drama field. But I think right off the cuff the 521 00:24:04,939 --> 00:24:06,579 Speaker 1: people in this company, they did the right thing to 522 00:24:06,589 --> 00:24:09,130 Speaker 1: decide that this person is not a good fit, worrying 523 00:24:09,140 --> 00:24:09,719 Speaker 1: about the friendship. 524 00:24:09,790 --> 00:24:11,689 Speaker 1: I think it shouldn't be that big of a deal. 525 00:24:11,699 --> 00:24:14,239 Speaker 1: In that case. I think we have to always understand 526 00:24:14,250 --> 00:24:17,670 Speaker 1: that when we run a business, the business interest comes first, right? 527 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:20,468 Speaker 1: And the performance of every member, especially in a small team, 528 00:24:20,500 --> 00:24:23,069 Speaker 1: it matters a lot. Everyone has to pull their weight. 529 00:24:23,140 --> 00:24:25,489 Speaker 1: So if you have someone who is a bit dysfunctional 530 00:24:25,500 --> 00:24:29,530 Speaker 1: causing problems, not committed to the work, causing difficulties for 531 00:24:29,540 --> 00:24:30,010 Speaker 1: others 532 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,629 Speaker 1: in a small team, right? It's like a very big 533 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,349 Speaker 1: impact to them. I think also there's nothing wrong to 534 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: be working with a friend or working for your friend. 535 00:24:39,630 --> 00:24:42,390 Speaker 1: But I think it's also important to be very clear 536 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,439 Speaker 1: about your boundaries. Yeah, there is a professional side as 537 00:24:45,449 --> 00:24:46,739 Speaker 1: well as a personal side 538 00:24:47,260 --> 00:24:49,510 Speaker 1: for the leader, the founder, right? Who is friends with 539 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,069 Speaker 1: this person. You really have to ask yourself, take it 540 00:24:52,079 --> 00:24:54,369 Speaker 1: upon yourself to say that firstly, maybe this is not 541 00:24:54,380 --> 00:24:56,409 Speaker 1: a good fit, you will take on the responsibility to 542 00:24:56,420 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 1: communicate the news clearly, to maybe discuss the settlement options 543 00:25:00,689 --> 00:25:03,770 Speaker 1: on how to best announce and communicate the departure 544 00:25:04,099 --> 00:25:05,780 Speaker 1: so that you kind of leave everyone a little bit 545 00:25:05,790 --> 00:25:08,899 Speaker 1: of space so that everyone can kind of emerge from 546 00:25:08,910 --> 00:25:12,349 Speaker 1: this feeling better about the situation itself. At the same time. Also, 547 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:14,448 Speaker 1: as a co-founder, you may have to just admit to 548 00:25:14,459 --> 00:25:16,239 Speaker 1: the rest of us that this was a bad hire, correct. 549 00:25:16,250 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 1: Maybe your hiring decision was flawed in the first place. 550 00:25:19,589 --> 00:25:22,329 Speaker 1: But instead of dragging this on, you need to cut 551 00:25:22,339 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 1: your losses as soon as possible. So I was wondering 552 00:25:24,810 --> 00:25:26,698 Speaker 1: why would they worry about this? Because I think they 553 00:25:26,709 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: feel that ok, number one, their friendship is at stake. 554 00:25:29,290 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: So 555 00:25:29,959 --> 00:25:32,339 Speaker 1: what if this person stops becoming a friend? So my 556 00:25:32,349 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: understanding is that this person could be a good friend, 557 00:25:35,709 --> 00:25:39,489 Speaker 1: a good friend, but not necessarily a good worker or 558 00:25:39,500 --> 00:25:42,060 Speaker 1: a good colleague. But I think if you are the 559 00:25:42,069 --> 00:25:45,079 Speaker 1: founder of the company, it's important to think for your 560 00:25:45,089 --> 00:25:47,099 Speaker 1: company at this point of time because there's the hat 561 00:25:47,109 --> 00:25:49,660 Speaker 1: that you need to wear if this person like Kay 562 00:25:49,670 --> 00:25:53,439 Speaker 1: was saying has already overstepped so many boundaries, including making 563 00:25:53,449 --> 00:25:55,420 Speaker 1: that female coworker feel unsafe. 564 00:25:55,959 --> 00:25:59,260 Speaker 1: Think about it. If the female coworker decides to escalate this, 565 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,109 Speaker 1: take it to ministry of manpower or to lodge a 566 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,780 Speaker 1: police complaint that will reflect very badly on the company. 567 00:26:05,790 --> 00:26:08,430 Speaker 1: So the company's reputation will be at stake. And at 568 00:26:08,439 --> 00:26:10,140 Speaker 1: the end of the day, you are the business owner, 569 00:26:10,150 --> 00:26:12,079 Speaker 1: you need to take care of not just your bottom 570 00:26:12,089 --> 00:26:14,609 Speaker 1: line but your rest of your workers as well. Yeah. 571 00:26:14,619 --> 00:26:17,219 Speaker 1: So you don't want any of these situations to escalate 572 00:26:17,229 --> 00:26:19,819 Speaker 1: beyond what it is at this stage. Yeah, even 573 00:26:19,900 --> 00:26:23,119 Speaker 1: and you mentioned earlier that this company doesn't have hr 574 00:26:23,290 --> 00:26:25,910 Speaker 1: so maybe the way they did the recruitment can improve. 575 00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: That's true. You don't just bring in on your friends. 576 00:26:27,969 --> 00:26:29,920 Speaker 1: You really have to bring on someone who is competent 577 00:26:29,930 --> 00:26:32,160 Speaker 1: enough and who is also able to fit into a team, 578 00:26:32,170 --> 00:26:34,650 Speaker 1: especially if it's a small team of six people, you 579 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,189 Speaker 1: need someone to fit in like a glove. 580 00:26:36,439 --> 00:26:38,959 Speaker 1: So the advice I'm taking now for people who run 581 00:26:38,969 --> 00:26:41,060 Speaker 1: the business or who have a small team and then 582 00:26:41,069 --> 00:26:43,739 Speaker 1: you are looking to bring your friends, please don't bring 583 00:26:43,750 --> 00:26:46,189 Speaker 1: somebody just because he or she is your friend. You 584 00:26:46,199 --> 00:26:49,459 Speaker 1: should really assess carefully their fate and their competency for 585 00:26:49,469 --> 00:26:51,729 Speaker 1: the work, the commitment to the work as well so 586 00:26:51,739 --> 00:26:53,670 Speaker 1: that you can protect your friendship if you are not 587 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,149 Speaker 1: confident of that, don't bring in the friend. Yeah. And 588 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,020 Speaker 1: if this person who you have to fire, who is 589 00:26:59,030 --> 00:26:59,540 Speaker 1: a friend 590 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,569 Speaker 1: is threatening to cut off the friendship, then so be it. 591 00:27:02,579 --> 00:27:04,810 Speaker 1: I think there's not much you can do if the 592 00:27:04,819 --> 00:27:07,079 Speaker 1: person doesn't act maturely and be able to see it 593 00:27:07,089 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 1: as a clear separation of personal and professional. It's ok. 594 00:27:11,449 --> 00:27:14,500 Speaker 1: Here's hoping that you and your bosses would be able 595 00:27:14,510 --> 00:27:17,030 Speaker 1: to make the right decision, do the right thing. But 596 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,079 Speaker 1: also at the same time, deliver the news in a 597 00:27:19,089 --> 00:27:22,459 Speaker 1: way that I guess would be win situation for everyone 598 00:27:22,859 --> 00:27:25,540 Speaker 1: if like k you have a work related question, do 599 00:27:25,550 --> 00:27:28,089 Speaker 1: write to us. We're at CN A podcast at media 600 00:27:28,170 --> 00:27:32,569 Speaker 1: corp.com dot SG. We're also on Spotify Apple podcasts as 601 00:27:32,579 --> 00:27:34,899 Speaker 1: well as youtube where a video version of this is 602 00:27:34,959 --> 00:27:37,949 Speaker 1: at the team behind the work it podcast is Christina 603 00:27:37,959 --> 00:27:42,250 Speaker 1: Robert Joan Chan, Juani Johari. S Win and Arjun Balas 604 00:27:42,780 --> 00:27:46,669 Speaker 1: mixing is by Cary Lim video by Haida Amin. I'm 605 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,869 Speaker 1: Gerald and I'm Tiffany. Have a good work week ahead.