1 00:00:04,070 --> 00:00:07,510 Speaker 1: Hi, we are back with our ask me anything segment. 2 00:00:07,519 --> 00:00:11,180 Speaker 1: And today we have a question on ageism. Now, this 3 00:00:11,189 --> 00:00:15,010 Speaker 1: question was sent in by our listener, Kelvin. Kelvin saw 4 00:00:15,020 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: an Instagram post and it advised not to reveal your 5 00:00:19,090 --> 00:00:21,329 Speaker 1: graduation year in your resume. 6 00:00:21,770 --> 00:00:25,510 Speaker 1: And I guess linkedin as well because he said ageism 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: is real. Now, Gerald, is that tip valid 8 00:00:29,049 --> 00:00:32,549 Speaker 2: in terms of ageism? Is it real? I think? Yes, 9 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:35,250 Speaker 2: it is. It's something that many employers will not admit to, 10 00:00:35,509 --> 00:00:38,619 Speaker 2: but sometimes it's a subconscious bias as well. Imagine if 11 00:00:38,630 --> 00:00:41,388 Speaker 2: your interview panel, all of them are younger than your candidate, 12 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:43,470 Speaker 2: there's already something that maybe in the 13 00:00:43,553 --> 00:00:45,751 Speaker 2: minds of the interviewer, right? But of course, if you 14 00:00:45,763 --> 00:00:48,232 Speaker 2: are referring to what you put on the resume, whether 15 00:00:48,263 --> 00:00:51,853 Speaker 2: you put your graduation year, my personal view is, you know, what, 16 00:00:51,862 --> 00:00:54,792 Speaker 2: it doesn't really matter whether you put there or not. 17 00:00:54,932 --> 00:00:57,333 Speaker 2: And the reason is because if you put it in there, 18 00:00:57,342 --> 00:00:59,993 Speaker 2: the concern here is people can infer your age, right? 19 00:01:00,143 --> 00:01:02,303 Speaker 2: But there are also many other ways that people can 20 00:01:02,312 --> 00:01:04,443 Speaker 2: infer age from your work experiences the 21 00:01:04,453 --> 00:01:05,242 Speaker 1: first year. They used to 22 00:01:05,334 --> 00:01:06,264 Speaker 1: hard work, they can kind of 23 00:01:06,324 --> 00:01:08,495 Speaker 2: tell all your past job experiences. They can tell how 24 00:01:08,504 --> 00:01:10,355 Speaker 2: many years you have worked. Some people say with me, 25 00:01:10,364 --> 00:01:12,775 Speaker 2: the earlier ones, I'll hide, I'll put the more later ones. 26 00:01:12,785 --> 00:01:14,584 Speaker 2: But then you also can total up the number of 27 00:01:14,595 --> 00:01:16,304 Speaker 2: years you work. I would even say sometimes even from 28 00:01:16,315 --> 00:01:18,224 Speaker 2: the name, you can also guess the age. I 29 00:01:18,235 --> 00:01:21,394 Speaker 1: see like a Lawrence. You know, of which 30 00:01:21,404 --> 00:01:21,934 Speaker 1: vintage. 31 00:01:21,944 --> 00:01:24,114 Speaker 2: There are some names that are very Gen Z and 32 00:01:24,125 --> 00:01:25,474 Speaker 2: there are some names that are a bit older, 33 00:01:25,824 --> 00:01:26,584 Speaker 1: Caen Jayen. 34 00:01:26,595 --> 00:01:26,754 Speaker 2: Yeah. 35 00:01:28,639 --> 00:01:31,199 Speaker 2: So there are lots of ways to discriminate against people. 36 00:01:31,209 --> 00:01:31,349 Speaker 2: So 37 00:01:31,360 --> 00:01:33,518 Speaker 1: obviously, if this is coming from a point of view 38 00:01:33,529 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: is that if recruiters really wanted to discriminate you, there 39 00:01:37,129 --> 00:01:39,690 Speaker 1: are a lot of I guess markers that they can 40 00:01:39,699 --> 00:01:43,459 Speaker 1: use to look out for these signs. But ordinarily you 41 00:01:43,470 --> 00:01:46,500 Speaker 1: are saying that it's just a point of reference for them. 42 00:01:46,940 --> 00:01:49,260 Speaker 2: The only advice I will give is for resume writing, 43 00:01:49,269 --> 00:01:51,599 Speaker 2: maybe don't put in your primary school leaving cert year, 44 00:01:51,610 --> 00:01:52,459 Speaker 2: your secondary 45 00:01:52,470 --> 00:01:54,139 Speaker 1: school, primary school, 46 00:01:54,765 --> 00:01:56,786 Speaker 2: maybe you are the kind that got very high scores 47 00:01:56,795 --> 00:01:59,536 Speaker 2: or your primary school is your primary school is very 48 00:01:59,545 --> 00:02:02,795 Speaker 2: branded kind. But typically employers just want to see the 49 00:02:02,805 --> 00:02:05,935 Speaker 2: latest qualification. You have the highest one, maybe the top two, 50 00:02:05,945 --> 00:02:08,595 Speaker 2: maybe your diploma or your JC or something, but you 51 00:02:08,606 --> 00:02:09,835 Speaker 2: don't have to put all the way back because I've 52 00:02:09,845 --> 00:02:11,205 Speaker 2: seen some people who really put all the way in 53 00:02:11,216 --> 00:02:14,175 Speaker 2: primary school and then the year really looks very long 54 00:02:14,186 --> 00:02:17,085 Speaker 2: time ago. Right. So, then that sets, like, ok, yeah, 55 00:02:17,095 --> 00:02:19,225 Speaker 2: too long already. But if you are, let's say getting 56 00:02:19,235 --> 00:02:19,905 Speaker 2: your degree 57 00:02:20,111 --> 00:02:22,412 Speaker 2: or your diploma at a certain year in the past, 58 00:02:22,421 --> 00:02:24,870 Speaker 2: I think people can still accept that if it's the 59 00:02:24,882 --> 00:02:27,102 Speaker 2: only number that so don't put too many numbers. That's 60 00:02:27,111 --> 00:02:28,712 Speaker 2: what I'm trying to say. I think also we need 61 00:02:28,722 --> 00:02:31,281 Speaker 2: to give recruiters more credit for what they do. They 62 00:02:31,292 --> 00:02:33,281 Speaker 2: don't look at every resume and see which year and 63 00:02:33,292 --> 00:02:35,772 Speaker 2: try to penalize people, they try to look for the 64 00:02:35,781 --> 00:02:38,721 Speaker 2: quality of the resume, what the person has done, what 65 00:02:38,731 --> 00:02:40,171 Speaker 2: the person wants to do, what the person is good 66 00:02:40,181 --> 00:02:42,132 Speaker 2: at doing. What's the value that they can bring forward 67 00:02:42,141 --> 00:02:44,341 Speaker 2: in the company? So what they are looking for in 68 00:02:44,352 --> 00:02:45,621 Speaker 2: the resume is coherence. 69 00:02:45,929 --> 00:02:48,829 Speaker 2: Exactly. If I take a seven second glance of your resume, right. 70 00:02:48,839 --> 00:02:51,770 Speaker 2: I know what you can do very clearly. But 71 00:02:51,779 --> 00:02:51,990 Speaker 1: then 72 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,309 Speaker 1: say, for example, if I'm a recruiter and I know 73 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 1: that the salary I'm going to be paying for this 74 00:02:56,369 --> 00:02:59,190 Speaker 1: job is very entry level. And then I have somebody 75 00:02:59,199 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: who they are already in their forties, then I know 76 00:03:02,089 --> 00:03:03,979 Speaker 1: that this person is going to try and 77 00:03:04,410 --> 00:03:06,198 Speaker 1: negotiate with me and we're going to get into a 78 00:03:06,210 --> 00:03:10,138 Speaker 1: very long process about how to give more salary or 79 00:03:10,149 --> 00:03:13,690 Speaker 1: even if this person says yes to this entry level salary. 80 00:03:13,869 --> 00:03:16,979 Speaker 1: Because they have had so many years working, they might 81 00:03:16,990 --> 00:03:19,820 Speaker 1: not stay. So I think there is still that consideration 82 00:03:19,830 --> 00:03:21,138 Speaker 1: that I guess some recruiters will 83 00:03:21,149 --> 00:03:21,538 Speaker 1: have. 84 00:03:21,550 --> 00:03:23,989 Speaker 2: Hm. So when they look at resume, they assess the 85 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:25,698 Speaker 2: value of what they are getting 86 00:03:25,970 --> 00:03:28,020 Speaker 2: and then they also have to look back at, for example, 87 00:03:28,029 --> 00:03:30,228 Speaker 2: what they're willing to pay. What's the budget for the role? Yes, 88 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,259 Speaker 2: they will have that kind of consideration. They might also 89 00:03:32,270 --> 00:03:35,839 Speaker 2: consider things like the fit, for example, your job titles, 90 00:03:35,850 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 2: if today you have been leading teams, but this entry 91 00:03:38,089 --> 00:03:40,289 Speaker 2: level role doesn't allow you or doesn't require you to 92 00:03:40,300 --> 00:03:42,550 Speaker 2: lead teams. One concern would be like, would you be 93 00:03:42,559 --> 00:03:45,149 Speaker 2: able to be a team player instead of being a 94 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,020 Speaker 2: team leader? Would you be comfortable with that? 95 00:03:47,029 --> 00:03:48,500 Speaker 1: So, like you say, they will look at your past 96 00:03:48,509 --> 00:03:51,589 Speaker 1: experience rather than the year of graduation? Yes, because the 97 00:03:51,600 --> 00:03:53,940 Speaker 1: year of graduation by the sounds of it doesn't 98 00:03:54,065 --> 00:03:56,884 Speaker 1: really play so big a factor because what else can 99 00:03:56,895 --> 00:03:58,925 Speaker 1: it tell you except the fact that you are young 100 00:03:58,934 --> 00:03:59,964 Speaker 1: or you are older? Yes. 101 00:03:59,975 --> 00:04:02,375 Speaker 2: Correct. So eventually at some point, they're going to find 102 00:04:02,384 --> 00:04:04,475 Speaker 2: out your age anyway. So if today you put it 103 00:04:04,485 --> 00:04:07,345 Speaker 2: in there and if they discriminate you based on that 104 00:04:07,354 --> 00:04:09,274 Speaker 2: age thing, they might as well because you're not going 105 00:04:09,285 --> 00:04:10,565 Speaker 2: to get a job anyway because when they are going 106 00:04:10,574 --> 00:04:13,014 Speaker 2: to see you and you're going to realize that you 107 00:04:13,024 --> 00:04:14,804 Speaker 2: are not quite what I expected you to be. Yeah. 108 00:04:14,815 --> 00:04:15,824 Speaker 2: And they are going to turn you on so it's 109 00:04:15,835 --> 00:04:17,755 Speaker 2: maybe better not to work for the company. Ok. Yeah. 110 00:04:17,765 --> 00:04:19,915 Speaker 2: So I would say don't worry too much about putting 111 00:04:19,924 --> 00:04:22,044 Speaker 2: in the numbers of your graduation year. 112 00:04:22,350 --> 00:04:24,649 Speaker 2: What you want to use your resume for the emphasis 113 00:04:24,660 --> 00:04:26,459 Speaker 2: of it is to really present the value of what 114 00:04:26,470 --> 00:04:28,970 Speaker 2: you want to do and make sure it's coherent because 115 00:04:28,980 --> 00:04:31,178 Speaker 2: most people in their resumes, they want to put in 116 00:04:31,190 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 2: everything that they have done before. But what we want 117 00:04:34,010 --> 00:04:36,170 Speaker 2: to show is the best bits of what we can 118 00:04:36,178 --> 00:04:38,730 Speaker 2: do and in a manner that is coherent. That means 119 00:04:38,769 --> 00:04:41,070 Speaker 2: once we read in 58 seconds, we know what this 120 00:04:41,079 --> 00:04:42,100 Speaker 2: person can do. So 121 00:04:42,109 --> 00:04:42,339 Speaker 1: in a 122 00:04:42,350 --> 00:04:45,519 Speaker 1: nutshell, very quickly, would you recommend to put in your 123 00:04:45,529 --> 00:04:46,170 Speaker 1: graduation year? 124 00:04:46,260 --> 00:04:48,299 Speaker 2: Yes. OK. I would recommend put in but don't put 125 00:04:48,309 --> 00:04:49,029 Speaker 2: the primary school. 126 00:04:49,899 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 1: So remember, don't put your primary school, you love your 127 00:04:52,049 --> 00:04:53,559 Speaker 1: primary school. You don't have to put your primary school. 128 00:04:53,570 --> 00:04:56,109 Speaker 1: So going back to the question that we said early 129 00:04:56,119 --> 00:04:59,660 Speaker 1: on is ageism real. We're going to have an episode 130 00:04:59,670 --> 00:05:02,649 Speaker 1: on that. We're going to talk about workplace discrimination and 131 00:05:02,660 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: that's coming up soon. 132 00:05:04,149 --> 00:05:07,029 Speaker 1: But if you have a work related question, do continue 133 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,500 Speaker 1: to send to us. We are at CN A podcasts 134 00:05:09,510 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: at media corp.com dot SG. We're also on Spotify Apple 135 00:05:13,730 --> 00:05:17,390 Speaker 1: Podcast and youtube where a video version of this is 136 00:05:17,399 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: at the team behind the work it podcast is Christina 137 00:05:20,488 --> 00:05:24,630 Speaker 1: Robert Joan Chan, Juani Johari Sa Wen and to Yan Yan. 138 00:05:24,750 --> 00:05:28,368 Speaker 1: Sound mixing is by Cary Lim video by Hanina Amin. 139 00:05:28,380 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: I'm Jol and I'm Tiffany have a super work week ahead.