1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:00,550 Speaker 1: This 2 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:09,020 Speaker 2: is a C. N. A podcast. Hello and welcome to 3 00:00:09,020 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 2: a very special four part edition of Heart of the Matter. 4 00:00:11,610 --> 00:00:14,670 Speaker 2: Looking at issues close to the Hearts of Singapore Youth. 5 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,510 Speaker 2: I'm Lynn tooling and with me is a special young 6 00:00:17,510 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 2: man co hosting this episode Adrian our audience something about yourself. 7 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 3: Hi everyone. I made real. I'm currently studying global affairs 8 00:00:24,650 --> 00:00:27,290 Speaker 3: and a third year student at Yale and US College. 9 00:00:27,300 --> 00:00:30,550 Speaker 3: I have been actively involved with community work since my 10 00:00:30,550 --> 00:00:33,570 Speaker 3: junior college days and have also been involved with an 11 00:00:33,570 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 3: interfaith nonprofit Roses of Peace. So that has really nurtured 12 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:39,650 Speaker 3: an interest in trying to understand how we can build 13 00:00:39,650 --> 00:00:40,550 Speaker 3: a better 14 00:00:40,740 --> 00:00:44,250 Speaker 3: multicultural and multiracial society in Singapore. 15 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:47,820 Speaker 2: Over the last one year. Race made the headlines in Singapore. Right, 16 00:00:47,830 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 3: yep. From Dev Prakash and his female chinese partner being 17 00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:54,630 Speaker 3: confronted by a chinese couple to debate in parliament over 18 00:00:54,630 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 3: the ethnic integration policy and even having PM lee addressing 19 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,020 Speaker 3: the issue of chinese privilege at National Day Rally. 20 00:01:01,030 --> 00:01:03,580 Speaker 2: But one thing that seems clear is how youths have 21 00:01:03,590 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 2: stronger 22 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,660 Speaker 2: and different views from an older generation of Singaporeans and 23 00:01:07,660 --> 00:01:10,050 Speaker 2: they seem to want greater equity. Can 24 00:01:10,050 --> 00:01:13,350 Speaker 3: these tensions be resolved by amending different policies 25 00:01:13,540 --> 00:01:16,680 Speaker 3: and institutions tied to raise maybe more fundamentally, what does 26 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:21,030 Speaker 3: an equitable multicultural society look like in today's context 27 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:25,090 Speaker 2: with us in the studio today, to discuss race relations 28 00:01:25,090 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 2: in Singapore. Dr Matthew Matthew's head of I PS Social 29 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:30,980 Speaker 2: lab and a principal research fellow at the Institute of 30 00:01:30,980 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 2: Policy Studies. 31 00:01:31,930 --> 00:01:33,310 Speaker 1: Hi, good to be here 32 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:36,850 Speaker 2: And Sabrina Sarah's co founder of the randomly relatable podcast 33 00:01:36,850 --> 00:01:37,580 Speaker 2: on Spotify. 34 00:01:37,590 --> 00:01:39,660 Speaker 4: Hello, Good to be here too. 35 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:42,820 Speaker 2: Okay guys, let's just kick off by taking a step 36 00:01:42,830 --> 00:01:45,850 Speaker 2: back about race relations. Now. If you can think about 37 00:01:45,860 --> 00:01:48,380 Speaker 2: how it's evolved in the past five years, would you 38 00:01:48,380 --> 00:01:52,630 Speaker 2: say it's improved stay the same or deteriorated and why? Matthew? 39 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,270 Speaker 1: Well, I mean if you look at the statistics and facts, 40 00:01:55,270 --> 00:01:57,650 Speaker 1: we do polling and we have a look at the 41 00:01:57,650 --> 00:02:01,150 Speaker 1: results from say 2013 and we compare it with 42 00:02:01,340 --> 00:02:06,360 Speaker 1: Results from 2019. It's very clear some metrics or some indicators. 43 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,540 Speaker 1: We do see some improvement. Obviously the level of trust 44 00:02:09,540 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: has gone up. More. People say that they have friends 45 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,130 Speaker 1: with people of another race. So in those areas we 46 00:02:15,130 --> 00:02:17,910 Speaker 1: actually do find that things have changed now. What we 47 00:02:17,910 --> 00:02:20,750 Speaker 1: find that things have deteriorated have been on issues such 48 00:02:20,750 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: as 49 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: discrimination where we find 50 00:02:22,940 --> 00:02:26,330 Speaker 1: more minorities for instance saying that they have been discriminated work. 51 00:02:26,340 --> 00:02:29,260 Speaker 1: So it's a mixed picture clearly you see some ships 52 00:02:29,740 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: positively and then you also see some areas where people 53 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:34,570 Speaker 1: are more aware of the gaps. What 54 00:02:34,570 --> 00:02:36,510 Speaker 2: about your Sabrina? Is that your sense as well? You 55 00:02:36,510 --> 00:02:38,930 Speaker 4: know, I completely agree with him. But I do think 56 00:02:38,930 --> 00:02:41,750 Speaker 4: it's very hard to say whether it has deteriorated or 57 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 4: improved over the years. If you want to compare like 58 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,230 Speaker 4: now as compared to like 50 years ago during our 59 00:02:47,230 --> 00:02:49,950 Speaker 4: grandparents time and all that our parents died driven right. 60 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,870 Speaker 4: There has been an obvious change I feel in the 61 00:02:52,870 --> 00:02:55,350 Speaker 4: way that we speak about another race. Here's the thing 62 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,010 Speaker 4: five years ago. Social media wasn't as big as it 63 00:02:59,020 --> 00:03:02,100 Speaker 4: is right now, ever since Covid, there was this thing 64 00:03:02,100 --> 00:03:04,590 Speaker 4: where everyone was going through cabin fever, which is the 65 00:03:04,590 --> 00:03:07,460 Speaker 4: thing where everyone's cooped up at home. So when this 66 00:03:07,460 --> 00:03:09,250 Speaker 4: happened naturally, 67 00:03:09,340 --> 00:03:11,860 Speaker 4: a lot of your emotions are also like packed inside. 68 00:03:11,870 --> 00:03:15,669 Speaker 4: Everyone needs an outlet being stuck at home for almost what, 69 00:03:15,669 --> 00:03:17,390 Speaker 4: six months, right? You know, two months you are, 70 00:03:17,410 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 2: it seems like forever. 71 00:03:18,650 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 4: It did seem like forever. But what I'm trying to 72 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:23,630 Speaker 4: say is that everyone's trying to find a way to 73 00:03:23,630 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 4: let out their inner frustrations and everything. So with cabin 74 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 4: fever and the rise of social media, I feel that 75 00:03:30,410 --> 00:03:32,710 Speaker 4: a lot of people are a lot more open about 76 00:03:32,710 --> 00:03:35,260 Speaker 4: their racial issues that they face. It feels a bit 77 00:03:35,260 --> 00:03:37,750 Speaker 4: different because the noise has been amplified on social media 78 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,450 Speaker 4: because everyone is given a platform to speak out about 79 00:03:40,450 --> 00:03:43,450 Speaker 4: whatever they feel inside and everyone's doing it and because 80 00:03:43,450 --> 00:03:46,110 Speaker 4: one person does it, someone else also wants to do it. 81 00:03:46,170 --> 00:03:49,180 Speaker 3: So I'm very curious like does that show that these 82 00:03:49,180 --> 00:03:52,100 Speaker 3: conversations are new or have this conversation has been pre 83 00:03:52,100 --> 00:03:52,860 Speaker 3: existing 84 00:03:52,940 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 3: just that they weren't recorded online or displayed online? 85 00:03:56,140 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 4: I feel like it has never been new. It's just 86 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 4: not been exposed to everyone. But right now it's social 87 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,650 Speaker 4: media and social media is open. So everyone has access 88 00:04:04,650 --> 00:04:05,270 Speaker 4: to it. You know, 89 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot more concern previously for people 90 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: to be very open to speak up about issues to it. 91 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: Race especially when they feel that they were in the 92 00:04:14,010 --> 00:04:16,150 Speaker 1: short and the steak they were discriminated. 93 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:18,060 Speaker 1: There was always that concern because 94 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: our model of race relations, the model of harmony building, 95 00:04:22,210 --> 00:04:24,739 Speaker 1: so in harmony building, then, you know, words like tolerance 96 00:04:24,740 --> 00:04:27,210 Speaker 1: come in, you have to learn how to discipline some 97 00:04:27,210 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: of your frustrations if you feel frustrated about race issues 98 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:32,770 Speaker 1: and you learn how to deal with it in a 99 00:04:32,770 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: proper way. And of course a lot there's a lot 100 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: of trust in the government dealing with some issues. 101 00:04:37,740 --> 00:04:40,650 Speaker 1: The whole idea about doing this behind closed doors, 102 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 1: finding the right people to speak about your frustrations and 103 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:45,860 Speaker 1: not putting it out. Some of those norms have changed 104 00:04:45,860 --> 00:04:48,550 Speaker 1: in more recent years and people are more willing to 105 00:04:48,550 --> 00:04:50,910 Speaker 1: speak it out, put it out, they don't feel that 106 00:04:50,910 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: that's not appropriate. But a lot of people who do 107 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:56,050 Speaker 1: want that kind of candidness, who want people to call 108 00:04:56,050 --> 00:04:57,060 Speaker 1: a spade a spade. 109 00:04:57,140 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 2: But why do these incidents happen when there have been 110 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,260 Speaker 2: so many national institutions that provide about last against these things? 111 00:05:03,339 --> 00:05:06,860 Speaker 2: One example would be the housing in the Development boards 112 00:05:06,870 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 2: ethnic Integration Policy. Right. Have they provided that balance against 113 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:13,450 Speaker 2: these tensions? 114 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: If you look in the integration policy that was a 115 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:21,900 Speaker 1: particular set of policy which helps save. Got some aspect 116 00:05:21,910 --> 00:05:25,659 Speaker 1: of race relations? Race relations are very broad thing. So 117 00:05:25,670 --> 00:05:29,510 Speaker 1: every policy tends to deal with some areas? Some deal 118 00:05:29,510 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 1: with integration, some deal with representation. Some deal with giving 119 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 1: rights to different groups. 120 00:05:35,339 --> 00:05:37,940 Speaker 1: The I. P. Has an important role in terms of 121 00:05:37,940 --> 00:05:42,020 Speaker 1: ensuring that we don't have situations in Singapore where people 122 00:05:42,020 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: would recognize a particular housing estate as a ghetto because 123 00:05:46,210 --> 00:05:50,190 Speaker 1: only minorities end up in those housing estates. Now, that 124 00:05:50,190 --> 00:05:52,460 Speaker 1: would be problematic. If you look at the experience of 125 00:05:52,460 --> 00:05:54,860 Speaker 1: many other countries, when you have situations like that, 126 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:58,159 Speaker 1: it does elicit some kind of us and them and 127 00:05:58,339 --> 00:06:02,210 Speaker 1: that has not been helpful in that post racial society. 128 00:06:02,210 --> 00:06:05,710 Speaker 1: The multicultural nirvana that we hope to have one day, 129 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,250 Speaker 1: we hope everybody could just be wherever they want to 130 00:06:08,250 --> 00:06:10,900 Speaker 1: be and have no need for any kind of race 131 00:06:10,900 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 1: based policy to dictate this. Many Singaporeans are cognizant that 132 00:06:14,490 --> 00:06:18,260 Speaker 1: if you don't have the kind of policy levers 133 00:06:18,339 --> 00:06:20,750 Speaker 1: so all throughout Singapore, especially when it comes to our 134 00:06:20,750 --> 00:06:21,660 Speaker 1: public housing 135 00:06:21,740 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: estates, that you've got that kind of diversity so that 136 00:06:25,000 --> 00:06:28,779 Speaker 1: people can get accustomed to people of different backgrounds, people 137 00:06:28,779 --> 00:06:31,690 Speaker 1: to live with. That. That seems to be something that's important. 138 00:06:31,700 --> 00:06:35,620 Speaker 1: Will it address all issues of ethnic integration? No, but 139 00:06:35,620 --> 00:06:37,220 Speaker 1: it's only there for some What 140 00:06:37,220 --> 00:06:41,460 Speaker 3: about you? Sabrina? You're young. Singaporeans probably enjoy high levels 141 00:06:41,460 --> 00:06:44,299 Speaker 3: of mobility. You can travel across Singapore from like East 142 00:06:44,300 --> 00:06:46,460 Speaker 3: West easily in like under an hour. Right? 143 00:06:46,540 --> 00:06:50,150 Speaker 3: How has that shaped your school experience, work experience? Do 144 00:06:50,150 --> 00:06:53,270 Speaker 3: you find yourself going up and making friends with people 145 00:06:53,270 --> 00:06:55,919 Speaker 3: from different backgrounds in your neighborhood? The 146 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: question really is it was conceived at a time when 147 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:01,460 Speaker 2: who lives next to you is important and you might 148 00:07:01,460 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 2: interact with your neighbors. The whole idea of the Kampong 149 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,250 Speaker 2: spirit and the corridors that people would spend time in. 150 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,330 Speaker 2: But does it still hold today? 151 00:07:08,339 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 4: Yes, it does completely. 100%. I feel why I grew 152 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 4: up in a HdB right? There was like four houses 153 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:16,570 Speaker 4: around me and it was all of a different race 154 00:07:16,570 --> 00:07:19,330 Speaker 4: group ever since I was three when I moved into 155 00:07:19,330 --> 00:07:20,650 Speaker 4: my second home, right? 156 00:07:20,740 --> 00:07:24,670 Speaker 4: My neighbor was another minority race and we got super close, 157 00:07:24,670 --> 00:07:27,050 Speaker 4: you know up to the extent where like if he 158 00:07:27,050 --> 00:07:28,830 Speaker 4: forgot to bring his key, he would hang out in 159 00:07:28,830 --> 00:07:31,670 Speaker 4: my house and because of that right? I am very 160 00:07:31,670 --> 00:07:35,780 Speaker 4: accepting and empathetic towards this other group. Everything starts from home, 161 00:07:35,790 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 4: you see. So if let's say my home is right 162 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 4: beside a person of a different cultural group or like 163 00:07:40,610 --> 00:07:43,540 Speaker 4: an ethnic group. I feel like that definitely shapes the 164 00:07:43,540 --> 00:07:46,410 Speaker 4: way that I see other people around me also. So 165 00:07:46,410 --> 00:07:49,020 Speaker 4: I completely agree that the E. I. P. Is an 166 00:07:49,030 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 4: amazing policy that came up 167 00:07:50,940 --> 00:07:54,350 Speaker 4: when there was no E. I. P. Around. And then 168 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:57,030 Speaker 4: even before that when things were Kampong, my mom grew 169 00:07:57,030 --> 00:08:00,190 Speaker 4: up in the Kampong. So her campaign was the Malaysia Kampong. 170 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,170 Speaker 4: So everyone around her was like melees. And then everyone 171 00:08:03,170 --> 00:08:05,970 Speaker 4: then there was the chinese companies, the indian Kampong. Right? 172 00:08:05,970 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 4: So when that happened, I feel like that mate, 173 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:12,670 Speaker 4: the segregation between the cultural groups very big. 174 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,220 Speaker 1: Well I definitely appreciate the I. P. I must say 175 00:08:15,220 --> 00:08:19,190 Speaker 1: that the policy does have its downside. And and of 176 00:08:19,190 --> 00:08:22,570 Speaker 1: course minorities do complain that they have to mean to 177 00:08:22,570 --> 00:08:25,030 Speaker 1: build harmony. They have to take the short end right? 178 00:08:25,030 --> 00:08:25,830 Speaker 1: Because 179 00:08:25,990 --> 00:08:26,710 Speaker 2: they have to take a short. 180 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:28,869 Speaker 1: Well I mean there are issues about this is a 181 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:30,260 Speaker 1: free market and private 182 00:08:30,340 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: you by yourself and if you cannot sell it to 183 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,770 Speaker 1: the highest bidder because of a race category issue, then 184 00:08:36,770 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: you are at a loss if you listen to parliamentary speeches. 185 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:42,069 Speaker 1: I think this has been raised several times and the 186 00:08:42,070 --> 00:08:45,310 Speaker 1: government has said that very few people face that situation. 187 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,620 Speaker 1: But then again, I mean I think as a policy 188 00:08:47,630 --> 00:08:50,150 Speaker 1: we have to think about how it affects that small 189 00:08:50,150 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: number of people who may not be able to profit 190 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:54,460 Speaker 1: at the same level as others. 191 00:08:54,640 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: If this is something that some groups have to do 192 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: for the benefit of everybody else, perhaps that we have 193 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:01,059 Speaker 1: to ensure that they don't lose out. 194 00:09:01,070 --> 00:09:03,329 Speaker 2: I just want to play Devil's advocate because a lot 195 00:09:03,330 --> 00:09:05,230 Speaker 2: of people when you talk about the I. P. And 196 00:09:05,230 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 2: they do have those complaints about the frictions when they're 197 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 2: trying to sell their place 198 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 2: and it's not just a minority but also like a 199 00:09:12,130 --> 00:09:14,740 Speaker 2: chinese person. My mother had to sell HDB flat and 200 00:09:14,740 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 2: she couldn't sell it because there were these quotas. 201 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,210 Speaker 2: Young people talk about that lived experience of not being 202 00:09:20,210 --> 00:09:22,950 Speaker 2: able to buy or not being able to sell and 203 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:25,730 Speaker 2: that seems to almost negate the racial harmony that it 204 00:09:25,730 --> 00:09:29,470 Speaker 2: does try to achieve and work very hard. Is there 205 00:09:29,470 --> 00:09:32,460 Speaker 2: then a case to be made to review the E. I. P. 206 00:09:32,460 --> 00:09:35,510 Speaker 2: How can be adjusted such as these tensions can be 207 00:09:35,510 --> 00:09:36,350 Speaker 2: minimized 208 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:38,610 Speaker 2: and surely cannot just be taken on a case by 209 00:09:38,610 --> 00:09:39,660 Speaker 2: case basis 210 00:09:39,940 --> 00:09:42,700 Speaker 1: for many aspects of policy. You do have to consider 211 00:09:42,710 --> 00:09:45,490 Speaker 1: the fact the benefit has to be for the greater 212 00:09:45,490 --> 00:09:48,780 Speaker 1: good for the greatest proportion. You may never be able 213 00:09:48,780 --> 00:09:51,309 Speaker 1: to have policy which would be able to address every 214 00:09:51,309 --> 00:09:53,780 Speaker 1: single person's issues. And you know there will be people 215 00:09:53,780 --> 00:09:56,730 Speaker 1: who will lose out if I go by parliamentary speeches 216 00:09:56,740 --> 00:09:59,940 Speaker 1: but the government says a very small number of people affected. 217 00:09:59,950 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: It's kind of painful. I mean we're talking about money 218 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:03,250 Speaker 1: people's livelihood, 219 00:10:03,340 --> 00:10:05,340 Speaker 1: what they have saved for what they hope they will 220 00:10:05,340 --> 00:10:07,690 Speaker 1: be able to see in terms of the appreciation of 221 00:10:07,690 --> 00:10:10,180 Speaker 1: an asset. In that case I think we would have 222 00:10:10,179 --> 00:10:13,910 Speaker 1: to consider how you would ensure that that group does 223 00:10:13,910 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: get fair compensation. Whatever you can do the benefits benefit. 224 00:10:18,890 --> 00:10:20,770 Speaker 1: A lot of people in Singapore. In fact, I think 225 00:10:20,770 --> 00:10:23,050 Speaker 1: it's an important aspect of keeping harmony. I think 226 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: Sabrina mentioned that how important it was because there was 227 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,140 Speaker 1: a day when many people were in ethnic of books. 228 00:10:29,150 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: I mean like you're not there were some other segregation. 229 00:10:31,809 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: So this is something that's helped the I. P. But 230 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:36,590 Speaker 1: how do you ensure that a small group of people 231 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,870 Speaker 1: who are losing out are further kind of taken care of. 232 00:10:39,870 --> 00:10:41,230 Speaker 1: I think that's an important thing that we have to 233 00:10:41,230 --> 00:10:41,650 Speaker 1: deal with. 234 00:10:41,740 --> 00:10:44,630 Speaker 2: Maybe I can just post freedom back into this conversation. Also, 235 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:47,820 Speaker 2: another tidal wave that is facing the I. P. System 236 00:10:47,820 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 2: is 237 00:10:48,340 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 2: the idea of growing interracial marriages, right? And the lines 238 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 2: being blood and you still have to take one box 239 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,020 Speaker 2: as to whether you're this race or that race and 240 00:10:56,020 --> 00:10:58,020 Speaker 2: you sell and buy based on this race, on that race. 241 00:10:58,030 --> 00:11:00,810 Speaker 2: Could that be another issue That would put more pressure 242 00:11:00,809 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 2: on the Ei P. System? What do you think, Sabrina? 243 00:11:02,940 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 4: I think that's good for them. You know, like good 244 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:08,270 Speaker 4: for them. They get to they get a choice to 245 00:11:08,270 --> 00:11:10,730 Speaker 4: like they get a higher choice right on whether they 246 00:11:10,740 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 4: can get the place or not. Well, they do 247 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 2: have to pick one category or 248 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 4: the other law isn't 249 00:11:15,650 --> 00:11:16,939 Speaker 2: a bit of a fraction because then you have to 250 00:11:16,940 --> 00:11:19,319 Speaker 2: figure out whether you're the race of the husband or 251 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:20,620 Speaker 2: the rest of the wife. 252 00:11:20,630 --> 00:11:23,900 Speaker 4: If that's still an issue then race relations haven't been fixed. 253 00:11:23,910 --> 00:11:26,489 Speaker 4: You know, like why if I have married a person 254 00:11:26,490 --> 00:11:29,020 Speaker 4: of a different ethnicity and I don't want to be 255 00:11:29,030 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 4: categorized as his and ethnicity, 256 00:11:31,340 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 4: then that means I'm not okay with his race. Yeah. 257 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,929 Speaker 3: And I think increasingly as there's more like inter ethnic marriages, 258 00:11:37,929 --> 00:11:41,579 Speaker 3: right then the question of whether the ethnic integration policy 259 00:11:41,590 --> 00:11:45,890 Speaker 3: reflects a very diverse ethnic composition and different neighborhoods comes 260 00:11:45,890 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 3: into question, does it really mean that you have 10 20% 261 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,450 Speaker 3: ethnic minorities? If it's mixed ethnicity household, how do we 262 00:11:53,450 --> 00:11:53,860 Speaker 3: even 263 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:58,020 Speaker 3: make that ethnic composition more reflective of the diversity we 264 00:11:58,020 --> 00:11:59,180 Speaker 3: have in Singapore? 265 00:11:59,190 --> 00:12:01,449 Speaker 1: I think the longer run, of course all these figures 266 00:12:01,450 --> 00:12:03,410 Speaker 1: have to be adjusted. I don't know that even now 267 00:12:03,420 --> 00:12:06,670 Speaker 1: figures to get adjusted at different points and depending on 268 00:12:06,670 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: the precinct in the neighborhood, there's always an attempt to 269 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,030 Speaker 1: kind of keep it open to the upper bounds. So 270 00:12:13,030 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: the various kinds of mechanisms that are in place. But 271 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,260 Speaker 1: actually when you think about the greater amount of inter 272 00:12:18,270 --> 00:12:19,350 Speaker 1: ethnic marriages, 273 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 1: I think policy would always have to keep up to 274 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:23,820 Speaker 1: date with some of the changes that society goes through, 275 00:12:23,830 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 1: at least at this point in time, it's still a 276 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:29,530 Speaker 1: smaller proportion and it was a smaller proportion. I think 277 00:12:29,530 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: the fact that you do have choice given to people, 278 00:12:32,050 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: people make a choice whether they can. And I think 279 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,150 Speaker 1: that's something that the couple has to make a decision 280 00:12:36,150 --> 00:12:36,559 Speaker 1: about 281 00:12:36,740 --> 00:12:39,090 Speaker 1: whether to put it as chinese or indian or malaya 282 00:12:39,090 --> 00:12:39,950 Speaker 1: at that point of time. 283 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,260 Speaker 1: The fact that they have a choice to me, I 284 00:12:42,260 --> 00:12:44,700 Speaker 1: think that's helpful. Nobody was forced to say well you 285 00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:46,740 Speaker 1: know what, you only can choose chinese if you were 286 00:12:46,740 --> 00:12:50,010 Speaker 1: in this kind of relationship only Malaysia's. And sometimes that 287 00:12:50,010 --> 00:12:53,910 Speaker 1: choice may do well economically. Sometimes it may not over time, 288 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,580 Speaker 1: hopefully there will be better ways of dealing with this. 289 00:12:56,580 --> 00:12:58,660 Speaker 1: But I think at this point I think that policy 290 00:12:58,670 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 1: has its use. 291 00:13:01,610 --> 00:13:03,660 Speaker 2: Yeah. 292 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:08,130 Speaker 3: Really drilling into this tension in the ethnic integration policy 293 00:13:08,140 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 3: at the end of the day. Does it really engender 294 00:13:11,010 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 3: deep understanding of different races? Or is it really a 295 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 3: superficial makes of different ethnicities in different neighborhoods doesn't even 296 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 3: serve as a reminder of how our skin color identifies 297 00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 3: us even separate us within the neighborhood or across neighborhoods? 298 00:13:28,410 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 3: For 299 00:13:28,920 --> 00:13:33,069 Speaker 2: really one is true understanding and much deeper awareness of 300 00:13:33,070 --> 00:13:36,510 Speaker 2: each other's cultural diversity when we talk about race relations. Right? 301 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,730 Speaker 2: But does the eyepiece reinforce this idea that there is 302 00:13:39,740 --> 00:13:44,230 Speaker 2: some level of superficial mixing without that truer deeper understanding 303 00:13:44,230 --> 00:13:46,530 Speaker 2: and it blinds us to that because we have checked 304 00:13:46,530 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 2: this box? 305 00:13:47,540 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 4: I think it gives us a chance. It gives us 306 00:13:49,610 --> 00:13:52,610 Speaker 4: an opportunity, you know to get together. I mean as 307 00:13:52,610 --> 00:13:55,450 Speaker 4: compared to if let's say there wasn't this option in 308 00:13:55,450 --> 00:13:58,770 Speaker 4: the beginning, I remember when I was still in my 309 00:13:58,770 --> 00:14:01,830 Speaker 4: previous home there was like block parties and everything and 310 00:14:01,830 --> 00:14:03,950 Speaker 4: it will be a mix of people down there. You 311 00:14:03,950 --> 00:14:05,059 Speaker 4: know So I think 312 00:14:05,340 --> 00:14:08,630 Speaker 4: E. I. P. Gives us the opportunity to get together 313 00:14:08,630 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 4: as one as compared to not having that at all 314 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: to deal with the deep set issues about race. We 315 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,420 Speaker 1: cannot just dependent policy to fix everything. Policy is not 316 00:14:18,429 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: the be all 317 00:14:18,929 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 2: and putting too much pressure on 318 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,740 Speaker 1: and in fact we've got several policies and I just 319 00:14:24,740 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: mentioned earlier they deal with different areas. But even then 320 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:30,710 Speaker 1: with all the policies in place you still will not 321 00:14:30,710 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: get 322 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,420 Speaker 1: all the change in people's hearts and that love for diversity. 323 00:14:34,420 --> 00:14:35,950 Speaker 1: Their willingness to appreciate. 324 00:14:36,140 --> 00:14:39,930 Speaker 1: People may not go just based on policies. They will 325 00:14:39,930 --> 00:14:43,380 Speaker 1: stick with the tolerance level that deeper preseason 326 00:14:43,380 --> 00:14:45,100 Speaker 2: floor when it comes to race relations. 327 00:14:45,110 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 1: But you know it's a flaw that I think works 328 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,410 Speaker 1: for society. You rather have this than a situation where 329 00:14:51,410 --> 00:14:54,650 Speaker 1: you have separation between groups and tension 330 00:14:54,940 --> 00:14:57,250 Speaker 1: looking at that policy gets us somewhere 331 00:14:57,440 --> 00:14:59,700 Speaker 1: it provides us at least a minimum so that we 332 00:14:59,700 --> 00:15:02,550 Speaker 1: can engage. As Sabrina mentioned, you've got a chance to 333 00:15:02,550 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: be able to be the block party. You can see 334 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: someone hopefully you can grow with that and you can 335 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:09,490 Speaker 1: learn how to appreciate the fact that other people cook 336 00:15:09,490 --> 00:15:12,950 Speaker 1: curry or somebody cooks a chinese dish or somebody burns 337 00:15:12,950 --> 00:15:15,650 Speaker 1: incense paper joss sticks that hindu 338 00:15:15,740 --> 00:15:16,940 Speaker 1: types of 339 00:15:16,950 --> 00:15:19,660 Speaker 3: and if you agree that this ethnic integration policy 340 00:15:19,740 --> 00:15:23,050 Speaker 3: gives us a desirable flaw then how about extending it 341 00:15:23,060 --> 00:15:26,030 Speaker 3: even to private estates because that's a place that's not 342 00:15:26,030 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 3: currently covered by the E. I. P. Right now. Right. 343 00:15:28,250 --> 00:15:28,600 Speaker 3: Are 344 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,460 Speaker 2: you saying that private housing our ratio enclaves then? 345 00:15:31,940 --> 00:15:32,820 Speaker 4: What 346 00:15:32,820 --> 00:15:35,190 Speaker 1: I'm happy about is we've got a public housing which 347 00:15:35,190 --> 00:15:38,710 Speaker 1: covers most Singaporeans and that's taken care of by I 348 00:15:38,750 --> 00:15:42,860 Speaker 1: should private housing be subject to all this. It makes 349 00:15:42,860 --> 00:15:45,470 Speaker 1: sense at least on face value. But there are other 350 00:15:45,470 --> 00:15:47,550 Speaker 1: issues currently I do think that when we think about 351 00:15:47,550 --> 00:15:49,510 Speaker 1: public housing we also have to think about the fact 352 00:15:49,510 --> 00:15:51,460 Speaker 1: that when it comes to a rental market 353 00:15:51,540 --> 00:15:53,250 Speaker 1: we also have to address other issues, 354 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:57,830 Speaker 1: preferences by owners in terms of who they are willing 355 00:15:57,830 --> 00:16:01,710 Speaker 1: to rent premise to. And you notice that not all 356 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:04,930 Speaker 1: people coming into Singapore will be equally loved and accepted 357 00:16:04,930 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 1: in every place. And some people will not be willing 358 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:10,340 Speaker 1: to have people of different ethnic backgrounds in their house 359 00:16:10,340 --> 00:16:13,060 Speaker 1: for a variety of reasons. And unfortunately you do have 360 00:16:13,070 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: a situation where 361 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,410 Speaker 1: perhaps in some condominiums, some areas people might be a 362 00:16:18,410 --> 00:16:20,970 Speaker 1: little bit more open to that. And you have that 363 00:16:20,970 --> 00:16:25,130 Speaker 1: kind of situation when you have more expatriates of particular 364 00:16:25,140 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: national origins in particular places. 365 00:16:27,090 --> 00:16:30,470 Speaker 2: I hear you're saying that housing in general whether the I. P. O. 366 00:16:30,470 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 2: HDB have other challenges and 367 00:16:33,040 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 2: dimensions that we should not probably place too much pressure 368 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,220 Speaker 2: on the E. I. P. And make it this idea 369 00:16:38,220 --> 00:16:42,750 Speaker 2: of a social engineered society as well. But policy also 370 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:46,860 Speaker 2: sometimes can be a flashpoint. So an example would be 371 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,530 Speaker 2: sep schools. So we did a poll with our instagram 372 00:16:50,530 --> 00:16:54,550 Speaker 2: followers and we asked them if they saw value in, 373 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,270 Speaker 2: well we asked them about the I. P. And actually 374 00:16:57,270 --> 00:17:00,620 Speaker 2: surprisingly for me the great majority actually said that they 375 00:17:00,620 --> 00:17:03,130 Speaker 2: saw value in the I. P. Um and when we 376 00:17:03,130 --> 00:17:04,659 Speaker 2: asked them about steps schools, 377 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,350 Speaker 2: I was split almost down the middle. So 47 378 00:17:08,540 --> 00:17:12,340 Speaker 2: in our instagram polls, followers of C. And S. I. D. 379 00:17:12,350 --> 00:17:15,380 Speaker 2: Accounts said that they saw value in the S. A. P. 380 00:17:15,380 --> 00:17:18,550 Speaker 2: Schools and 53% that they did not see value. What 381 00:17:18,550 --> 00:17:21,660 Speaker 2: do you think about that? Do you think that people 382 00:17:21,660 --> 00:17:26,379 Speaker 2: understand why these schools exist? Why are they still flash points? 383 00:17:26,390 --> 00:17:28,550 Speaker 4: This is a very tough one. 384 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,899 Speaker 4: I had to talk to my uncle and my grandfather 385 00:17:30,900 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 4: about their their point of views. And I even talked 386 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,110 Speaker 4: to my auntie who was a teacher to get her 387 00:17:35,109 --> 00:17:35,770 Speaker 4: point of views. 388 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:40,260 Speaker 4: The majority believed that sub schools they are predominantly the 389 00:17:40,260 --> 00:17:44,290 Speaker 4: majority race. The only offer mandarin as their mother tongue right? 390 00:17:44,300 --> 00:17:48,409 Speaker 4: But the reason behind this is to preserve the strong 391 00:17:48,420 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 4: heritage that they have on the other end of what 392 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:53,850 Speaker 4: my previous point was about the I PS 393 00:17:54,340 --> 00:17:57,660 Speaker 4: sub schools. I feel like they do not get a 394 00:17:57,660 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 4: chance at all to intermingle with anyone else. Pretty much 395 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,070 Speaker 4: there might be one or two of the minority in 396 00:18:03,070 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 4: that school. You can still have focused on the chinese 397 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,419 Speaker 4: culture and the heritage without leaving the others out. And 398 00:18:10,420 --> 00:18:12,550 Speaker 4: like they said an argument that 399 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,370 Speaker 4: then it will be difficult to get enough teachers to 400 00:18:15,369 --> 00:18:19,919 Speaker 4: teach their mother tongue ever since Covid right? Everyone's getting 401 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 4: used to the idea of HBO home based learning. There's 402 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 4: so many easy fixes to that. What you can do 403 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,230 Speaker 4: is get all the minority from all the steps schools 404 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,210 Speaker 4: to enter their computer labs and then have like a 405 00:18:30,210 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 4: mass teaching session. You know it's it's a simple fix 406 00:18:34,050 --> 00:18:35,859 Speaker 4: but it's something that has 407 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:37,710 Speaker 4: not being looked into. I feel 408 00:18:37,940 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 4: I've heard of sub schools 409 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,350 Speaker 4: coming together with the regular school right to bring their 410 00:18:43,350 --> 00:18:46,820 Speaker 4: students to each other schools to learn about the other heritages. 411 00:18:46,830 --> 00:18:50,850 Speaker 4: So for example and West Springs that they came together 412 00:18:50,859 --> 00:18:53,730 Speaker 4: and then they perform each other's like cultural performances right? 413 00:18:53,740 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 4: And I feel like that's something that maybe the government 414 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 4: should recommend more to step schools. 415 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:00,610 Speaker 4: Just so they are given a chance. Like I said 416 00:19:00,609 --> 00:19:04,070 Speaker 4: it's all about giving them opportunities giving us opportunities to 417 00:19:04,070 --> 00:19:05,860 Speaker 4: intermingle with everyone else. 418 00:19:05,940 --> 00:19:07,430 Speaker 2: I just want to get into what you actually said 419 00:19:07,430 --> 00:19:09,340 Speaker 2: at the start of your answer which is you said 420 00:19:09,340 --> 00:19:12,330 Speaker 2: that you went to ask people about except school 421 00:19:12,340 --> 00:19:13,389 Speaker 4: why? 422 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,190 Speaker 2: Because surely there was something clawing at your brain when 423 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:17,430 Speaker 2: I said step schools. 424 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 4: No it's 425 00:19:18,330 --> 00:19:19,670 Speaker 2: chinese privilege. 426 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,350 Speaker 4: Yeah, frankly saying it is like, 427 00:19:22,740 --> 00:19:26,290 Speaker 4: I feel because of the lack of intermingling right? I 428 00:19:26,290 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 4: feel like there's no integration based on my own assumptions 429 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 4: and others as well. Right? The um promoting elitism in 430 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 4: a sense. So all this I feel is questionable because 431 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 4: step schools, majority of sub schools in Singapore are like 432 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,770 Speaker 4: one of the top ranking schools in the whole of Singapore. Right? 433 00:19:46,780 --> 00:19:50,140 Speaker 4: So knowing that you are of the majority race and 434 00:19:50,140 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 4: going to a smart school. 435 00:19:51,690 --> 00:19:55,430 Speaker 3: It's interesting how SAp schools were designed to preserve and 436 00:19:55,430 --> 00:19:58,260 Speaker 3: protect chinese heritage when the chinese race is sort of 437 00:19:58,260 --> 00:20:01,930 Speaker 3: like the majority race in Singapore. Dr Matthew Matthew, you know, 438 00:20:01,930 --> 00:20:04,750 Speaker 3: might not start a step school for the malays. The indians, 439 00:20:04,750 --> 00:20:05,770 Speaker 3: the your asians, 440 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:10,330 Speaker 3: if there's an economic argument right about china on the rise, 441 00:20:10,340 --> 00:20:14,620 Speaker 3: Indonesia Malaysia brunei have pretty decent sized economies as well, 442 00:20:14,630 --> 00:20:17,980 Speaker 3: why not create sub schools where we can understand malay 443 00:20:17,980 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 3: heritage and better connect with our peers in the region. 444 00:20:20,770 --> 00:20:24,770 Speaker 1: This is where when we start balancing ideals 445 00:20:25,340 --> 00:20:28,920 Speaker 1: and also the pragmatic aspects of it. The practical aspects 446 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 1: of dealing with many of these issues. So we have 447 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:34,990 Speaker 1: a model in Singapore about multi racialism which doesn't require 448 00:20:34,990 --> 00:20:38,580 Speaker 1: you to give up your heritage model. Multi racialism allows 449 00:20:38,580 --> 00:20:40,959 Speaker 1: us to preserve it. So it makes complete sense for 450 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,610 Speaker 1: every ethnic group to be able to preserve its culture. 451 00:20:43,609 --> 00:20:44,060 Speaker 1: So if 452 00:20:44,300 --> 00:20:46,700 Speaker 1: the malays would want to preserve the culture, the indians 453 00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:47,369 Speaker 1: and chinese, 454 00:20:47,540 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: the historical issues about the chinese schools and its role 455 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:54,590 Speaker 1: and how the need for Singapore to preserve some of that. 456 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:56,649 Speaker 1: So of course a lot of it has been penned 457 00:20:56,650 --> 00:21:00,100 Speaker 1: in economic arguments. I mean, you do mention very clearly 458 00:21:00,100 --> 00:21:03,580 Speaker 1: that there could be economic arguments for more indian schools 459 00:21:03,580 --> 00:21:05,170 Speaker 1: or malay schools for that matter. 460 00:21:05,430 --> 00:21:08,060 Speaker 1: Of course, a lot of this goes back to size. 461 00:21:08,140 --> 00:21:10,570 Speaker 1: So the pragmatic aspects of it, we can't run away 462 00:21:10,570 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: from it. The same issue about can you put all 463 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:16,710 Speaker 1: the minority Children in sub schools to a computer lab 464 00:21:16,710 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: and provide them training? It's also a good idea, but 465 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: at the same time, if you want to have parity 466 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,399 Speaker 1: for everyone, you want to have them to have the 467 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,780 Speaker 1: same kind of exposure, be able to have a teacher 468 00:21:25,790 --> 00:21:28,270 Speaker 1: come to class, teach interact and all that. 469 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: The devil's in the details of how you make it possible. 470 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,050 Speaker 1: I definitely feel that it would have been great for 471 00:21:34,190 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 1: schools to have students from other who take other mother 472 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,570 Speaker 1: tongue languages to also be able to be there and 473 00:21:40,570 --> 00:21:43,669 Speaker 1: somehow another come up with a system, I'm sure some 474 00:21:43,670 --> 00:21:47,270 Speaker 1: creativity that's possible. It's really then coming to this place 475 00:21:47,270 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: where 476 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 1: acknowledged that 477 00:21:49,540 --> 00:21:54,690 Speaker 1: the overall learning experience for school students can be enhanced 478 00:21:54,690 --> 00:21:57,340 Speaker 1: if they do have not just this once in a while, 479 00:21:57,340 --> 00:22:01,250 Speaker 1: I get to pair with the madrasa, a national school, 480 00:22:01,260 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 1: but there is a ability to have students who are 481 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: from a different culture right there with them throughout their 482 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:12,130 Speaker 1: school life who force all students to understand about the 483 00:22:12,130 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: importance of diversity, accommodation, dealing with people of different backgrounds, 484 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:20,619 Speaker 1: learning how to work around it. We shouldn't miss this opportunity, 485 00:22:20,630 --> 00:22:24,830 Speaker 1: especially in a world which is a lot more globalized, diverse, multiracial, 486 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:28,450 Speaker 1: multicultural to be able to afford all kids this experience. 487 00:22:28,540 --> 00:22:31,219 Speaker 2: But I'm curious because the idea of school also the 488 00:22:31,220 --> 00:22:34,270 Speaker 2: education sorting is a huge goal 489 00:22:34,340 --> 00:22:37,419 Speaker 2: and sorting kids in terms of their interests, their subjects, 490 00:22:37,420 --> 00:22:40,260 Speaker 2: their abilities is one key goal because then kids who 491 00:22:40,260 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 2: can run fast, run fast but doesn't mean that others 492 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,750 Speaker 2: are left behind. It means that there's a pace catered 493 00:22:44,750 --> 00:22:47,180 Speaker 2: to them and they've got the resources directed at them, 494 00:22:47,190 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 2: kids can do triple sides or they can do double 495 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:50,860 Speaker 2: math and 496 00:22:50,940 --> 00:22:52,780 Speaker 2: a secondary school. I'm not sure that's still the case 497 00:22:52,780 --> 00:22:54,690 Speaker 2: now because it's been so long since I did school 498 00:22:54,690 --> 00:22:55,050 Speaker 2: but 499 00:22:55,140 --> 00:22:58,060 Speaker 2: that wasn't seen as a ballistics. It doesn't have the 500 00:22:58,060 --> 00:23:01,170 Speaker 2: connotation when it comes to cep schools, which is you know, 501 00:23:01,170 --> 00:23:04,729 Speaker 2: higher mandarin or whatever. And I asked that because I 502 00:23:04,730 --> 00:23:06,990 Speaker 2: didn't go to a step school, right? And I didn't 503 00:23:06,990 --> 00:23:10,950 Speaker 2: want to go to accept school chinese subject. So why 504 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,460 Speaker 2: is there that sensitivity when it comes to language, 505 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,960 Speaker 2: but less. So when it comes to math or science 506 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:18,170 Speaker 2: or arts, 507 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 2: is it the same thing, 508 00:23:20,170 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 1: There was a season, there was a time when sub 509 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,820 Speaker 1: schools were justified and people have the idea that this 510 00:23:25,820 --> 00:23:29,770 Speaker 1: was the nurturing of the mandarin elite. Now I think 511 00:23:29,770 --> 00:23:33,910 Speaker 1: this is how commentators, others thought about the issue. That's 512 00:23:33,910 --> 00:23:36,470 Speaker 1: quite a bit of digging and thinking about the issue 513 00:23:36,470 --> 00:23:37,950 Speaker 1: in that particular frame. 514 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: I don't think that's how people view it today. 515 00:23:40,140 --> 00:23:43,290 Speaker 2: I mean the household surveys actually showed that more chinese 516 00:23:43,290 --> 00:23:45,870 Speaker 2: households speak english at home, no longer mandarin. 517 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:47,949 Speaker 1: So so things have changed quite a bit. So the 518 00:23:47,950 --> 00:23:51,170 Speaker 1: notion about the mandarin elite for instance, probably does not 519 00:23:51,170 --> 00:23:53,260 Speaker 1: have the same kind of currency that it probably had 520 00:23:53,270 --> 00:23:56,970 Speaker 1: many years ago. I don't think it does make sense 521 00:23:56,970 --> 00:24:00,610 Speaker 1: that if there is sufficient mass for instance, would be 522 00:24:00,609 --> 00:24:03,250 Speaker 1: able to do well for instance, in mandarin. I mean 523 00:24:03,250 --> 00:24:05,590 Speaker 1: there are very good economic arguments for this and you 524 00:24:05,590 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: do have a 525 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: a mass which you don't have for malays and indians 526 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,250 Speaker 1: at this point of time, why not ensure that chinese 527 00:24:12,250 --> 00:24:16,290 Speaker 1: language does get strong balanced, people are able to speak it. Well, 528 00:24:16,300 --> 00:24:19,540 Speaker 1: there's cultural appreciation, there is ways to be able to 529 00:24:19,550 --> 00:24:25,030 Speaker 1: build bigger bridges into china and east asian economies so 530 00:24:25,030 --> 00:24:26,260 Speaker 1: that there are good reasons for it. 531 00:24:26,340 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: What we really need to figure is 532 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,490 Speaker 1: how to work through this policy with the hard people 533 00:24:31,490 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: feeling that this is a show of chinese privilege, this 534 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,850 Speaker 1: marks of elitism among the chinese, I think we can 535 00:24:38,859 --> 00:24:40,740 Speaker 1: work that. I think this would be useful 536 00:24:40,750 --> 00:24:43,860 Speaker 3: when you talked about sub schools. It almost seemed like 537 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:48,410 Speaker 3: whatever you are born ethnically, you study in schools right? 538 00:24:48,410 --> 00:24:51,570 Speaker 3: You talk about indians and malays needing to form their 539 00:24:51,570 --> 00:24:54,119 Speaker 3: own critical mass before they can start their own steps schools, 540 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:58,020 Speaker 3: why can't chinese people who are interested in southeast asia 541 00:24:58,030 --> 00:24:59,660 Speaker 3: Malaysia Indonesia brunei 542 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:04,230 Speaker 3: who don't speak malay for instance, beginners melee intermediate melee 543 00:25:04,230 --> 00:25:04,550 Speaker 3: in 544 00:25:04,740 --> 00:25:07,670 Speaker 3: Malaysia schools and learn about the heritage even though they 545 00:25:07,670 --> 00:25:09,170 Speaker 3: are not ethnically Malave. 546 00:25:09,940 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 1: It's a good point. I mean it's worth looking at 547 00:25:12,890 --> 00:25:14,810 Speaker 1: and this is where of course we'll look at how 548 00:25:14,810 --> 00:25:18,100 Speaker 1: society in general. I mean look at issues like that. 549 00:25:18,109 --> 00:25:20,870 Speaker 1: The society in general give the same kind of wait 550 00:25:20,869 --> 00:25:26,670 Speaker 1: and currency to for instance mentioned education vs melee, education, 551 00:25:27,140 --> 00:25:30,330 Speaker 1: it might be different. This could simply be economics at 552 00:25:30,330 --> 00:25:32,870 Speaker 1: least at this point you do see china as being 553 00:25:32,869 --> 00:25:38,330 Speaker 1: economically very important, viable, completely agree. I mean Nusantara Indonesia 554 00:25:38,330 --> 00:25:41,629 Speaker 1: Malaysia offers a lot of options. It makes a lot 555 00:25:41,630 --> 00:25:44,540 Speaker 1: of sense for people to build that capacity, which I 556 00:25:44,540 --> 00:25:46,460 Speaker 1: think that's what happens with the 557 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,619 Speaker 1: the language options that quite a few students take up 558 00:25:49,630 --> 00:25:55,070 Speaker 1: today where they build expertise in malay indian languages are 559 00:25:55,070 --> 00:25:58,020 Speaker 1: a lot more complicated because of the just the array 560 00:25:58,020 --> 00:26:00,419 Speaker 1: of indian languages and the fact that I guess in 561 00:26:00,420 --> 00:26:03,379 Speaker 1: India I guess we will have resorted to using english 562 00:26:03,380 --> 00:26:04,850 Speaker 1: at least for business purposes. 563 00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,590 Speaker 1: There will be a lot more thinking about the practicality 564 00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:09,609 Speaker 1: of many of these issues. So I think that needs 565 00:26:09,609 --> 00:26:10,460 Speaker 1: to be dealt with. 566 00:26:10,540 --> 00:26:13,530 Speaker 1: So it's always that you have policy and we always 567 00:26:13,530 --> 00:26:17,650 Speaker 1: aspire for greater ways of making policy reflect what we 568 00:26:17,650 --> 00:26:22,490 Speaker 1: do believe is the ethos, the ethos of Singaporeans. We 569 00:26:22,490 --> 00:26:25,149 Speaker 1: would want to have that kind of integration. We want 570 00:26:25,150 --> 00:26:26,879 Speaker 1: people to be able to mix together. But how do 571 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,390 Speaker 1: we ensure this happens yet? The other important issue about 572 00:26:30,390 --> 00:26:31,450 Speaker 1: ensuring that 573 00:26:31,540 --> 00:26:34,110 Speaker 1: chinese students are able to excel in language and do 574 00:26:34,109 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 1: well and have the kind of space to be able 575 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:38,310 Speaker 1: to do it well. 576 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:45,080 Speaker 2: It goes back, there's something Sabrina suggested which is more 577 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,140 Speaker 2: mixing with the steps schools, right, then the question is, 578 00:26:48,140 --> 00:26:51,060 Speaker 2: would a minority want to go to a state school, 579 00:26:51,340 --> 00:26:53,460 Speaker 2: where is the balance? Also when you talk about 580 00:26:53,540 --> 00:26:56,350 Speaker 2: on the one hand, schools must be these places where 581 00:26:56,350 --> 00:26:59,929 Speaker 2: social integration happens and when that does happen. And if 582 00:26:59,930 --> 00:27:03,369 Speaker 2: you have kids who have been in certain schools or 583 00:27:03,369 --> 00:27:08,410 Speaker 2: classes or social circles all their lives up until that point, 584 00:27:08,420 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 2: you're bound to get 585 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,820 Speaker 2: questions, seeking to understand classmates of a different racial religious 586 00:27:14,820 --> 00:27:20,140 Speaker 2: group that might come across as insensitive, clumsy and even 587 00:27:20,150 --> 00:27:23,980 Speaker 2: spark some racial sensitivities. Are kids prepared to have that 588 00:27:23,980 --> 00:27:25,450 Speaker 2: conversation at that age. 589 00:27:25,940 --> 00:27:28,770 Speaker 4: I always feel that kids grow at the pace that 590 00:27:28,770 --> 00:27:32,020 Speaker 4: they are being taught, right? So like if let's say 591 00:27:32,020 --> 00:27:33,980 Speaker 4: ever since they were young, they were exposed to these 592 00:27:33,980 --> 00:27:35,820 Speaker 4: kind of things. I think that's amazing. You know, I 593 00:27:35,820 --> 00:27:39,370 Speaker 4: think that's what will prepare them for the future because 594 00:27:39,369 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 4: no matter what in a multicultural country like Singapore, we 595 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:44,660 Speaker 4: will face this kind of 596 00:27:44,740 --> 00:27:47,860 Speaker 4: questions and possibly insensitive remarks, right? 597 00:27:47,940 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 4: So if we were exposed to it when we were 598 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,640 Speaker 4: like 10, 11, 12, it would be a lot easier 599 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,659 Speaker 4: for us to handle it when we are 22, 600 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,590 Speaker 4: You know, as compared to if we've only ever gotten 601 00:27:57,590 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 4: it when we are 22, then like the whole world 602 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:00,669 Speaker 4: will kind of like 603 00:28:00,740 --> 00:28:03,120 Speaker 4: be confusing at that point. I didn't know these kind 604 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:04,510 Speaker 4: of things exist. 605 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,020 Speaker 3: So should such conversations be encouraged in schools or should 606 00:28:08,020 --> 00:28:09,790 Speaker 3: the teacher say stop, You know, let's not talk about 607 00:28:09,790 --> 00:28:12,430 Speaker 3: this in class when the teacher sees like some level 608 00:28:12,430 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 3: of tension happening, when a particular sensitive question is approached. 609 00:28:16,740 --> 00:28:19,169 Speaker 4: You know, how like when Children fall down and then 610 00:28:19,170 --> 00:28:21,250 Speaker 4: they said, don't show them that it hurts to call 611 00:28:21,250 --> 00:28:23,479 Speaker 4: down Yeah, don't freak out, right? So, I think it's 612 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,600 Speaker 4: similar in that sense, if we freak out about a 613 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:28,189 Speaker 4: question like that and obviously the kids will think that 614 00:28:28,190 --> 00:28:30,790 Speaker 4: it's wrong to talk about this kind of stuff. But 615 00:28:30,790 --> 00:28:33,330 Speaker 4: if teachers moderated and then answer it on a very 616 00:28:33,330 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 4: neutral standpoint, 617 00:28:34,740 --> 00:28:37,209 Speaker 4: then it would be a lot easier for everyone to 618 00:28:37,210 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 4: accept this kind of insensitive questions or just questions in general, 619 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 4: So maybe the teachers would have to be trained 620 00:28:43,740 --> 00:28:47,050 Speaker 4: to maintain this kind of racial peace in classrooms. 621 00:28:47,060 --> 00:28:49,380 Speaker 3: I think so far we have talked a lot about, 622 00:28:49,380 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 3: you know, education looking at the workplace. Um the government 623 00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:57,620 Speaker 3: has tried to institute legislation like tough app to prevent 624 00:28:57,620 --> 00:29:03,010 Speaker 3: like racial discrimination, but don't most companies already have whistleblowing 625 00:29:03,010 --> 00:29:04,860 Speaker 3: and outlets for complaints. 626 00:29:04,940 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 3: What more should the government do and what should this 627 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,950 Speaker 3: loss even achieve in the workplace? 628 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,710 Speaker 2: We pulled our Instagram followers and I say this again 629 00:29:13,710 --> 00:29:15,750 Speaker 2: with a smile on my face because it was never 630 00:29:15,750 --> 00:29:17,610 Speaker 2: meant to be a scientific poll was supposed to be 631 00:29:17,610 --> 00:29:22,330 Speaker 2: a dipstick, 64% said that they witnessed or experienced discrimination 632 00:29:22,330 --> 00:29:24,960 Speaker 2: in the workplace. So I think that's the context also 633 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 2: that we're asking the question, what do you guys think 634 00:29:27,540 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: on the dipstick though? Of course, did you ask in 635 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,780 Speaker 1: terms of ethnic discrimination such as broad discrimination, 636 00:29:32,790 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 2: racial discrimination, 637 00:29:34,570 --> 00:29:37,430 Speaker 1: that's quite a high proportion. I mean at least we 638 00:29:37,430 --> 00:29:41,030 Speaker 1: witnessed it. We do know from minorities themselves about I 639 00:29:41,030 --> 00:29:41,550 Speaker 1: think 640 00:29:41,940 --> 00:29:45,950 Speaker 1: 30, said they have quite a bit of discrimination encountered 641 00:29:45,950 --> 00:29:48,170 Speaker 1: in their lives when it comes to workplace. 642 00:29:48,740 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 1: So there are a good number who feel it now. 643 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:55,430 Speaker 1: It's very hard sometimes to be able to pinpoint exactly 644 00:29:55,430 --> 00:30:00,080 Speaker 1: whether this is really discriminatory with their misunderstanding about maybe 645 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,420 Speaker 1: you passed over for promotion and you look around and say, well, 646 00:30:03,420 --> 00:30:05,469 Speaker 1: you know what the only guys who have been promoted 647 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,170 Speaker 1: the chinese and the indians emblazoned get promoted. 648 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: So it could be a race thing, 649 00:30:09,740 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: there could be some sense of that, but maybe that 650 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,260 Speaker 1: may not be true. Maybe there would be empirical ways 651 00:30:14,260 --> 00:30:17,410 Speaker 1: of determining whether abilities just happen to be very different 652 00:30:17,410 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: and in any workplace, the number of minorities are very small. 653 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,060 Speaker 1: So you have a very small sample size to make 654 00:30:23,060 --> 00:30:25,550 Speaker 1: a comparison in terms of abilities. 655 00:30:25,940 --> 00:30:29,330 Speaker 1: But then there are situations where I think over the 656 00:30:29,330 --> 00:30:33,850 Speaker 1: years people have raised issues about workplaces making choices in 657 00:30:33,850 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: terms of who they hire based on language abilities or 658 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,430 Speaker 1: rather the ability to speak mandarin. For instance, when that 659 00:30:42,430 --> 00:30:46,270 Speaker 1: requirement really is not fundamental to how the job is performed, 660 00:30:46,340 --> 00:30:48,739 Speaker 1: it's just more that well, you know, this working environment, 661 00:30:48,750 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: most of us enjoy speaking mandarin. So I would like 662 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,780 Speaker 1: to have someone who also speaks mandarin to be part 663 00:30:53,780 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: of this work force that really is discriminatory. And firstly 664 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,770 Speaker 1: I think for the company's loss because we're missing out 665 00:30:58,770 --> 00:31:02,290 Speaker 1: the creativity that comes with diversity and number two, it 666 00:31:02,300 --> 00:31:03,350 Speaker 1: really is not the way 667 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:05,760 Speaker 1: things are done in Singapore, right? You do, you want 668 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:06,770 Speaker 1: to ensure that 669 00:31:06,940 --> 00:31:10,700 Speaker 1: people of all backgrounds are able to be in all 670 00:31:10,700 --> 00:31:13,850 Speaker 1: kinds of organizations as long as they are able to contribute. 671 00:31:13,860 --> 00:31:17,780 Speaker 1: We do have whistle blowing options. We do have tough app. 672 00:31:17,790 --> 00:31:21,860 Speaker 1: So there are avenues already there, but someone other perhaps 673 00:31:21,860 --> 00:31:25,140 Speaker 1: because we don't have any clear code in terms of 674 00:31:25,140 --> 00:31:25,660 Speaker 1: racial 675 00:31:25,740 --> 00:31:30,180 Speaker 1: discrimination. It doesn't seem legally like there are firm statements 676 00:31:30,180 --> 00:31:32,870 Speaker 1: about penalties. The way I think people would know that hey, 677 00:31:32,870 --> 00:31:37,810 Speaker 1: we do have very clear types of legislation to address 678 00:31:37,810 --> 00:31:42,950 Speaker 1: workplace discrimination, including racial discrimination. There are methods by which 679 00:31:42,950 --> 00:31:45,550 Speaker 1: you can get a fair hearing about this. Another issue 680 00:31:45,550 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: is it's very difficult to make a complaint that you 681 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,460 Speaker 1: have been racially discriminated because for many people in the workplace, 682 00:31:52,740 --> 00:31:54,770 Speaker 1: there are a lot of experiences that they are actually 683 00:31:54,770 --> 00:31:58,780 Speaker 1: quite happy about. But there are discriminatory instances they've gone 684 00:31:58,780 --> 00:32:01,430 Speaker 1: through and they also have the way this to be 685 00:32:01,430 --> 00:32:04,690 Speaker 1: able to speak about that to tell somebody about that. 686 00:32:04,690 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: And then, you know, if you are a minority in 687 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: the company, you are very, very small, you're easily targeted. 688 00:32:09,610 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: That would be an issue of your next workplace. So 689 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,950 Speaker 1: we really need to have sufficiently robust policies so people 690 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,570 Speaker 1: can raise those issues be properly covered for instance, and 691 00:32:20,570 --> 00:32:23,910 Speaker 1: there's a proper system to redress and go through it. 692 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:25,500 Speaker 1: It is a complicated issue, but 693 00:32:25,500 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 2: there's already tough though. People have redress. They have recourse 694 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:28,950 Speaker 2: to that. 695 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,850 Speaker 1: They do. So of course, if you look at what 696 00:32:32,140 --> 00:32:35,270 Speaker 1: currently has things are not laid down very, very clearly 697 00:32:35,340 --> 00:32:37,950 Speaker 1: is a place for people to contact and call. 698 00:32:38,140 --> 00:32:40,940 Speaker 1: It is funny because very, very small number of people 699 00:32:40,950 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: would contact tough about a race issue and there are 700 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: polls do show that quite a lot of people, your 701 00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,770 Speaker 1: polls say 65% I will show among minorities about 40 702 00:32:49,770 --> 00:32:52,380 Speaker 1: something percent. You do know, quite a few people experience it, 703 00:32:52,390 --> 00:32:55,180 Speaker 1: but they don't call. So there must be some other 704 00:32:55,190 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: things in the dynamic. Perhaps the definition of 705 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,550 Speaker 1: what discrimination entails clear sense, which, you know, laws can 706 00:33:02,550 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: tend to better showcase, make it clear to people. And 707 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,070 Speaker 1: of course, the whole set of what goes on, the 708 00:33:10,070 --> 00:33:12,340 Speaker 1: method by which you deal with that some of those 709 00:33:12,340 --> 00:33:14,460 Speaker 1: things may need to be more open and transparent. 710 00:33:14,540 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 2: Is that what you're expecting when enshrined in law this 711 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 2: coming year, 2022? 712 00:33:19,370 --> 00:33:21,770 Speaker 1: I have no idea how, but I'm sure that 713 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:26,890 Speaker 1: officers are looking at models elsewhere overseas and in many places, 714 00:33:26,890 --> 00:33:29,270 Speaker 1: that's what it is. You need to have clear definitions 715 00:33:29,270 --> 00:33:34,020 Speaker 1: about discrimination, what it entails. Examples of that. You have 716 00:33:34,020 --> 00:33:36,270 Speaker 1: to have a clear sense of the methods by which 717 00:33:36,270 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: you redress and you protect individuals. 718 00:33:38,330 --> 00:33:39,860 Speaker 3: Sabrina. What about you? You know, 719 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:43,460 Speaker 3: as a young talent in the workplace, what 720 00:33:43,540 --> 00:33:46,780 Speaker 3: would you want companies to do to like enshrined diversity 721 00:33:46,780 --> 00:33:50,900 Speaker 3: and inclusion and to make the workplace more equitable and supportive, 722 00:33:50,910 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 3: especially someone faces racial discrimination. 723 00:33:53,940 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 4: So I haven't been in the workplace for too long. 724 00:33:56,450 --> 00:34:00,160 Speaker 4: I've only been working for, say about 23 years, so 725 00:34:00,170 --> 00:34:05,170 Speaker 4: I don't have much experience here, but I have definitely 726 00:34:05,170 --> 00:34:08,870 Speaker 4: faced some racial discrimination myself. I wouldn't say that it's 727 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 4: anything serious. It's start to 728 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:12,469 Speaker 2: consider racial discrimination. 729 00:34:12,540 --> 00:34:14,489 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the thing, I'm not a very like Betty 730 00:34:14,489 --> 00:34:16,910 Speaker 4: person or like a sensitive person. So a lot of 731 00:34:16,910 --> 00:34:19,730 Speaker 4: times I just brush it off, but sometimes I tell 732 00:34:19,730 --> 00:34:22,220 Speaker 4: you to like my friends and family and they'd be like, oh, 733 00:34:22,230 --> 00:34:25,900 Speaker 4: that's not nice to experience. Some things are like when 734 00:34:25,900 --> 00:34:29,410 Speaker 4: there's christmas dinner for example, and there's no halal food 735 00:34:29,410 --> 00:34:32,280 Speaker 4: on the table, you know, as simple as that or 736 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:33,260 Speaker 4: the very basic one 737 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 4: in the office. No one speaks english too often when 738 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:38,760 Speaker 4: they are speaking to each other. Most of the time 739 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 4: it's in mandarin because I am the only melee in 740 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,310 Speaker 4: my workplace and I've always been, so I've been to 741 00:34:44,310 --> 00:34:47,089 Speaker 4: three different workplaces have always been the only melee there. 742 00:34:47,100 --> 00:34:49,620 Speaker 4: I do understand that maybe it's just their preferred way 743 00:34:49,620 --> 00:34:51,760 Speaker 4: of speaking and it's not uh 744 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 4: risk versus risk kind of thing. It is just a 745 00:34:54,210 --> 00:34:56,359 Speaker 4: majority versus minority. 746 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:56,860 Speaker 4: How do you 747 00:34:56,860 --> 00:35:01,470 Speaker 2: know if something is racial discrimination versus just silly, silly, 748 00:35:01,469 --> 00:35:05,370 Speaker 2: horrible ignorance because no one should be insensitive obviously. But 749 00:35:05,370 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 2: did you try asking them about it or talking to 750 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:08,870 Speaker 2: them about it? 751 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,049 Speaker 4: You know, surprisingly, actually I have, you know, so I'm 752 00:35:12,050 --> 00:35:14,300 Speaker 4: pretty close to one of my colleagues, right? I asked 753 00:35:14,300 --> 00:35:15,550 Speaker 4: a very simple question, like 754 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 4: when you guys see something that you like 755 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,690 Speaker 4: food, right? And it's handler, do you guys not feel 756 00:35:20,690 --> 00:35:23,609 Speaker 4: the one to eat there? They'll be like, no, no problem. 757 00:35:23,620 --> 00:35:26,090 Speaker 4: The people that I'm working with, they are very nice. 758 00:35:26,090 --> 00:35:28,490 Speaker 4: They are very inclusive. But at the same time, they 759 00:35:28,489 --> 00:35:30,319 Speaker 4: didn't order food. That wasn't holler 760 00:35:30,330 --> 00:35:31,259 Speaker 2: because 761 00:35:31,270 --> 00:35:34,170 Speaker 4: I don't know, I guess I don't 762 00:35:34,340 --> 00:35:37,330 Speaker 4: look the part of like a conventional molly. I don't 763 00:35:37,330 --> 00:35:38,750 Speaker 4: know like what I mean by that is 764 00:35:38,940 --> 00:35:42,050 Speaker 4: like, um, I don't know where hijab, I don't dress 765 00:35:42,050 --> 00:35:46,250 Speaker 4: necessarily covered up, you know? So maybe with that assumption 766 00:35:46,250 --> 00:35:49,080 Speaker 4: they might think that I wouldn't mind having food. That 767 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:51,170 Speaker 4: isn't halal as not as long as it's not pork, 768 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 4: my colleagues, not from this particular workplace, but from previous ones. Right. 769 00:35:55,410 --> 00:35:58,340 Speaker 4: They have asked me questions like, oh, are you a 770 00:35:58,340 --> 00:36:01,550 Speaker 4: modern muslim. So I'm like, what is that supposed to mean? 771 00:36:01,550 --> 00:36:03,770 Speaker 4: You know? No, I'm a muslim. I'm not modern muslim 772 00:36:03,770 --> 00:36:06,630 Speaker 4: or whatever. So they brought me to a non halal place, 773 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:08,580 Speaker 4: Jack's place. Oh yeah. 774 00:36:08,590 --> 00:36:09,479 Speaker 2: And what did you say about, 775 00:36:09,489 --> 00:36:11,620 Speaker 4: I didn't know that it was there. They just gave 776 00:36:11,620 --> 00:36:13,350 Speaker 4: me an address. They didn't tell me where exactly. 777 00:36:13,430 --> 00:36:14,350 Speaker 4: So I didn't eat. 778 00:36:14,730 --> 00:36:15,130 Speaker 4: But 779 00:36:15,140 --> 00:36:16,550 Speaker 2: then I bought you lunch after that, Right? 780 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,210 Speaker 4: No, they didn't. And I went home. Oh, like I 781 00:36:20,210 --> 00:36:22,860 Speaker 4: said previously, right, It was, I don't think it's a 782 00:36:22,860 --> 00:36:26,620 Speaker 4: race versus race thing. It's a majority versus minority thing. 783 00:36:26,630 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 3: I want to go back to what you said earlier. 784 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,469 Speaker 3: You know, you have been to three different work places. 785 00:36:30,469 --> 00:36:32,460 Speaker 3: You have always been the only melee there 786 00:36:32,630 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 3: equal opportunities in the workplace comes up when we ask 787 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,279 Speaker 3: our instagram followers. What is one thing they would change 788 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:38,450 Speaker 3: about race in Singapore. 789 00:36:38,530 --> 00:36:40,580 Speaker 3: So do you think we should have quotas to ensure 790 00:36:40,580 --> 00:36:43,790 Speaker 3: ethnic representation at the pinnacles in the workplace or even 791 00:36:43,790 --> 00:36:48,260 Speaker 3: just in different workplaces? Um, does that ensure ethnic minorities 792 00:36:48,270 --> 00:36:51,750 Speaker 3: have equal opportunities in life or heard that goal even? 793 00:36:52,930 --> 00:36:54,210 Speaker 4: I mean that's a lot to ask 794 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,339 Speaker 2: that diversity and inclusion look like to you. 795 00:36:56,340 --> 00:36:59,860 Speaker 4: Then I'm Malia and everyone, I grew up in like 796 00:36:59,860 --> 00:37:02,220 Speaker 4: my family, we are all malaria. So naturally there's a 797 00:37:02,219 --> 00:37:05,390 Speaker 4: sense of, I feel more drawn to be friends with malays. 798 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,310 Speaker 4: But the thing is that might be extremely racist of 799 00:37:08,310 --> 00:37:09,950 Speaker 4: me to say. But no, it's just the way I 800 00:37:09,950 --> 00:37:10,660 Speaker 4: was brought up. 801 00:37:10,730 --> 00:37:12,770 Speaker 4: You know, I'm just more comfortable with the people who 802 00:37:12,770 --> 00:37:14,660 Speaker 4: have been around me ever since I was born. 803 00:37:14,830 --> 00:37:17,660 Speaker 4: But you see how in America I have family there 804 00:37:17,660 --> 00:37:20,260 Speaker 4: also write as much as there is also a lot 805 00:37:20,260 --> 00:37:23,020 Speaker 4: of racism there, right? They are all very proud to 806 00:37:23,020 --> 00:37:25,380 Speaker 4: say that if you ask them what they are, they 807 00:37:25,380 --> 00:37:28,390 Speaker 4: are american, you know, they're not white, they're not black 808 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 4: in Singapore. We are melee, we are chinese, we are 809 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,670 Speaker 4: indians were not like singaporean. So I guess diversity inclusion 810 00:37:34,670 --> 00:37:35,250 Speaker 4: is like 811 00:37:35,630 --> 00:37:40,820 Speaker 4: having everyone see each other as we are Singaporean. We 812 00:37:40,820 --> 00:37:42,469 Speaker 4: should help each other up 813 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,910 Speaker 2: those identity exclusive. You can meet singaporean and off for 814 00:37:45,910 --> 00:37:46,569 Speaker 2: some reason as 815 00:37:46,570 --> 00:37:50,630 Speaker 4: well. Yeah, definitely. It's just nice to come to a 816 00:37:50,630 --> 00:37:52,850 Speaker 4: room and then not feel like 817 00:37:53,130 --> 00:37:55,739 Speaker 4: I'm immediately left out just because of my race. 818 00:37:55,830 --> 00:37:57,750 Speaker 2: We should always be cognizant of that, right 819 00:37:58,130 --> 00:38:01,420 Speaker 4: kind of like when I went into union, it's pretty 820 00:38:01,420 --> 00:38:03,710 Speaker 4: obvious that like I don't know, it might just be 821 00:38:03,710 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 4: a feeling, but it is a feeling that I get 822 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,730 Speaker 4: when I come into a classroom and I am one 823 00:38:08,730 --> 00:38:10,910 Speaker 4: of the three malays that are there, you know, there 824 00:38:10,910 --> 00:38:13,690 Speaker 4: is a sense of judgment that I feel from the 825 00:38:13,690 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 4: rest just because of my ethnic group 826 00:38:16,420 --> 00:38:18,260 Speaker 4: and it would be nice if I come into a 827 00:38:18,260 --> 00:38:19,950 Speaker 4: room and I don't feel like that anymore. 828 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,750 Speaker 4: But how do we get there? That is something that 829 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:25,640 Speaker 4: is very tough to answer. I 830 00:38:25,650 --> 00:38:28,310 Speaker 2: just want to start to round off this podcast. Maybe 831 00:38:28,310 --> 00:38:31,540 Speaker 2: it will start with the spiky stuff about political representation 832 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,779 Speaker 2: because we are due to hold a presidential election five 833 00:38:35,780 --> 00:38:40,960 Speaker 2: years after our first reserve presidency after assumed the role. So, 834 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,330 Speaker 2: you know, she's spoken about a lot of issues, chauvinism 835 00:38:44,330 --> 00:38:48,230 Speaker 2: raised racially charged incidents and so much more. And you know, 836 00:38:48,230 --> 00:38:50,750 Speaker 2: there are people who are questions 837 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:52,030 Speaker 2: do, but do you think 838 00:38:52,219 --> 00:38:56,150 Speaker 2: presidency has improved the confidence of ethnic minorities to be 839 00:38:56,150 --> 00:38:56,950 Speaker 2: represented 840 00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,950 Speaker 1: when President Taliban became president in an election, which 841 00:39:01,420 --> 00:39:04,150 Speaker 1: wasn't seen as an election. I mean, it seemed like 842 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,050 Speaker 1: there was some kind of affirmative action in place. That's 843 00:39:07,050 --> 00:39:09,090 Speaker 1: how people looked at it. I think there's always a 844 00:39:09,090 --> 00:39:12,150 Speaker 1: concern whether people would grow to accept the fact that 845 00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,340 Speaker 1: President Halimah being a melee would still be just as 846 00:39:15,340 --> 00:39:17,820 Speaker 1: good as other presidents Over time. People have come to 847 00:39:17,820 --> 00:39:20,129 Speaker 1: accept the fact that, I mean it's really the person, 848 00:39:20,130 --> 00:39:23,560 Speaker 1: it's not that race that matters and if the person 849 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:28,899 Speaker 1: is good and speaks up for all Singaporeans regardless of areas. 850 00:39:28,900 --> 00:39:30,830 Speaker 1: And President Halimah has spoken about all kinds of things 851 00:39:30,830 --> 00:39:31,650 Speaker 1: were raised and 852 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:36,110 Speaker 1: gender issues and issues of ability and disability a whole 853 00:39:36,110 --> 00:39:39,739 Speaker 1: range of things. And of course provided support is very visible. 854 00:39:39,739 --> 00:39:44,390 Speaker 1: A lot of people have seen her work and her 855 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,660 Speaker 1: connection to the community itself. I don't think it provides 856 00:39:47,660 --> 00:39:50,900 Speaker 1: people another way of looking at it and saying, you know, 857 00:39:50,900 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people prefer the status school 858 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,820 Speaker 1: most of the times, if you're used to the majority, 859 00:39:55,820 --> 00:39:56,950 Speaker 1: then you 860 00:39:57,020 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: veer towards that. 861 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:00,750 Speaker 1: But I think having seen the fact that you can 862 00:40:00,750 --> 00:40:05,969 Speaker 1: have a president like president from minority ethnic background melee, 863 00:40:05,980 --> 00:40:09,420 Speaker 1: I think provide people a new way of looking at this. 864 00:40:09,430 --> 00:40:13,219 Speaker 1: I guess it reduces some of the previous prejudice that 865 00:40:13,219 --> 00:40:16,140 Speaker 1: people might have in mind. You we didn't do polling 866 00:40:16,140 --> 00:40:17,330 Speaker 1: around that season 867 00:40:17,510 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: a few years ago and it was very clear in 868 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:20,219 Speaker 1: our polls that 869 00:40:20,410 --> 00:40:25,529 Speaker 1: you do have a substantial portion of Singaporeans who just 870 00:40:25,540 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 1: didn't think that a male a president would be acceptable. 871 00:40:29,050 --> 00:40:31,930 Speaker 1: I don't think if you re pull it now, things 872 00:40:31,930 --> 00:40:34,770 Speaker 1: have changed quite a bit, partly because I think people 873 00:40:34,770 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 1: have been able to see and we did have president 874 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,630 Speaker 1: nothing for a while. But now a melee president have 875 00:40:39,630 --> 00:40:39,940 Speaker 1: not 876 00:40:40,010 --> 00:40:42,490 Speaker 1: had for many years, people know, okay, you can have 877 00:40:42,489 --> 00:40:46,120 Speaker 1: a melee president and that can be very good for Singapore, 878 00:40:46,130 --> 00:40:48,989 Speaker 1: just as good as other presidents. So I do think 879 00:40:48,989 --> 00:40:51,540 Speaker 1: that that will probably have changed some of people's views 880 00:40:51,540 --> 00:40:53,830 Speaker 1: about the ethnic group of presidents 881 00:40:54,310 --> 00:40:58,540 Speaker 4: as a youth who the president is doesn't really affect 882 00:40:58,540 --> 00:41:01,770 Speaker 4: the way I live my life, right? But we are 883 00:41:01,770 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 4: all adaptable. 884 00:41:03,010 --> 00:41:05,730 Speaker 4: Maybe at first some people may not agree with it, 885 00:41:05,730 --> 00:41:08,230 Speaker 4: but after a year after two 886 00:41:08,610 --> 00:41:10,880 Speaker 4: you can't just get used to it and it's fine. 887 00:41:10,890 --> 00:41:13,830 Speaker 4: Singapore is still nice to live in. I have no, 888 00:41:13,830 --> 00:41:15,649 Speaker 4: I have no complaints staying here. You know, I want 889 00:41:15,650 --> 00:41:17,850 Speaker 4: to raise my kids here in the future. 890 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,390 Speaker 1: Jump jump to a part of it. I do think 891 00:41:20,390 --> 00:41:23,560 Speaker 1: that it also signals to a lot of our minorities 892 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,630 Speaker 1: and and for this matter for malays that male, a 893 00:41:26,630 --> 00:41:28,020 Speaker 1: young person growing up, that 894 00:41:28,110 --> 00:41:30,440 Speaker 1: you can get to the top of the land 895 00:41:30,810 --> 00:41:32,590 Speaker 1: as a melee. I mean you don't have to be 896 00:41:32,590 --> 00:41:35,299 Speaker 1: a chinese actually always to be able to be the top. 897 00:41:35,310 --> 00:41:37,930 Speaker 1: I think that that as a symbol. I think it's 898 00:41:37,930 --> 00:41:39,330 Speaker 1: very helpful. Yeah, 899 00:41:39,340 --> 00:41:41,739 Speaker 4: actually I guess that that does help, you know like 900 00:41:41,750 --> 00:41:46,859 Speaker 4: knowing that our efforts do mean results because sometimes we 901 00:41:46,860 --> 00:41:49,529 Speaker 4: feel like even if you put in as much efforts 902 00:41:49,710 --> 00:41:52,840 Speaker 4: as another person of the majority theories for example, right, 903 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:54,630 Speaker 4: we might not get the position that they do 904 00:41:54,710 --> 00:41:56,970 Speaker 4: just because of our race. That is something that has 905 00:41:56,969 --> 00:41:59,860 Speaker 4: been ingrained in our heads through all the experiences that 906 00:41:59,860 --> 00:42:03,069 Speaker 4: we've heard from ourselves and others. So maybe knowing that 907 00:42:03,070 --> 00:42:05,310 Speaker 4: there is a melee president, it does give us a 908 00:42:05,310 --> 00:42:06,260 Speaker 4: sense of hope. I 909 00:42:06,260 --> 00:42:08,430 Speaker 2: feel like I need to ask the devil's advocate question here, 910 00:42:08,430 --> 00:42:11,140 Speaker 2: which is you feel like we're more ready for non 911 00:42:11,140 --> 00:42:12,430 Speaker 2: chinese PM and 912 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,489 Speaker 1: I think year and year you get more and more 913 00:42:15,489 --> 00:42:17,650 Speaker 1: people will be able to see that. I mean, I 914 00:42:17,650 --> 00:42:19,339 Speaker 1: guess again, if you do a poll, I don't know 915 00:42:19,340 --> 00:42:22,430 Speaker 1: whether the numbers the last time wasn't fantastic. I'm sure 916 00:42:22,430 --> 00:42:25,750 Speaker 1: it's changed. I think a lot more people are open, 917 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,580 Speaker 1: but you know, I cannot run away from the fact 918 00:42:27,580 --> 00:42:29,339 Speaker 1: that I do think that there's still a certain amount 919 00:42:29,340 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 1: of prejudice which still around. 920 00:42:31,100 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: I think things have changed in the last 56 years 921 00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:35,020 Speaker 1: and you do have a shift 922 00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,650 Speaker 1: and greater openness or the right person is there. I 923 00:42:38,650 --> 00:42:41,180 Speaker 1: don't think people might be able to go beyond the 924 00:42:41,180 --> 00:42:43,440 Speaker 1: ethnic race. And I think, I think it does say 925 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,830 Speaker 1: a lot when Singapore is able to to see a 926 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:50,009 Speaker 1: melee Prime Minister indian Prime Minister Eurasian Prime Minister, it 927 00:42:50,010 --> 00:42:53,310 Speaker 1: does say something about the fabric of our society, 928 00:42:53,980 --> 00:42:56,230 Speaker 1: but they can happen right now in many 929 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,109 Speaker 1: Yes time. I think that's another question. 930 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,620 Speaker 2: I just want to round off today's podcast with maybe 931 00:43:01,620 --> 00:43:02,820 Speaker 2: last two questions, 932 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,589 Speaker 2: how would you both describe the state of race relations 933 00:43:06,590 --> 00:43:08,520 Speaker 2: in Singapore in a sentence. 934 00:43:08,900 --> 00:43:09,729 Speaker 3: Don't put too many 935 00:43:09,730 --> 00:43:11,420 Speaker 4: commerce, 936 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:14,150 Speaker 4: a 937 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,180 Speaker 1: state of race relations. How good is 938 00:43:16,180 --> 00:43:17,049 Speaker 4: it? 939 00:43:18,290 --> 00:43:21,529 Speaker 2: I 940 00:43:21,540 --> 00:43:22,810 Speaker 1: mean, I would say it's harmonious. 941 00:43:23,700 --> 00:43:27,580 Speaker 4: I am satisfied with how it is right now, but 942 00:43:27,590 --> 00:43:29,819 Speaker 4: there is definitely room for improvement. 943 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,340 Speaker 3: And how would you want to describe it in 10 944 00:43:32,340 --> 00:43:34,310 Speaker 3: years time? What, what's come to mind? 945 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,049 Speaker 1: So I think it would be that deeper level of harmony. 946 00:43:37,060 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 1: My first one would be that there's an amount of harmony, 947 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,359 Speaker 1: but there's, as I think Sabrina mentioned, there's a little 948 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,010 Speaker 1: bit of superficiality you want to grow deeper 949 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:51,850 Speaker 1: is not just about tolerance, but about understanding, respecting appreciating 950 00:43:51,860 --> 00:43:55,670 Speaker 1: different cultures, recognizing that's very valuable to the life of 951 00:43:55,670 --> 00:43:57,980 Speaker 1: Singapore is not just something that we have to skirt 952 00:43:57,980 --> 00:43:59,860 Speaker 1: around because there are people of different races and we 953 00:43:59,860 --> 00:44:04,420 Speaker 1: have to live with this potential violent possibility. But the 954 00:44:04,420 --> 00:44:07,530 Speaker 1: fact that this is really something that makes Singapore such 955 00:44:07,530 --> 00:44:08,210 Speaker 1: a great place 956 00:44:08,489 --> 00:44:11,750 Speaker 4: I would love if Singaporeans, we don't see color at 957 00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,680 Speaker 4: all anymore. I don't think that can happen in 10 958 00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,830 Speaker 4: years that is something that our community has to do 959 00:44:17,830 --> 00:44:20,740 Speaker 4: it on an individual level. Right? It requires a lot 960 00:44:20,739 --> 00:44:24,090 Speaker 4: of hard to look at another person and see past 961 00:44:24,100 --> 00:44:26,969 Speaker 4: the superficial stereotypes that we have of each other. I'm 962 00:44:26,969 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 4: hoping that in 10 years maybe that there will be 963 00:44:29,650 --> 00:44:34,370 Speaker 4: progress and development in that area where singaporeans are one 964 00:44:34,380 --> 00:44:38,410 Speaker 2: time there 965 00:44:38,410 --> 00:44:41,380 Speaker 3: was Dr Matthew Matthew's head of the I PS social 966 00:44:41,380 --> 00:44:44,080 Speaker 3: lab and a principal research fellow at the Institute of 967 00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,759 Speaker 3: Policy Studies and Sabrina Shiraz, co founder of the randomly 968 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,100 Speaker 3: relatable podcast on Spotify. 969 00:44:50,110 --> 00:44:52,230 Speaker 2: This has been part of the matter with me, linda 970 00:44:52,890 --> 00:44:53,930 Speaker 3: and Adrian young 971 00:44:53,940 --> 00:44:57,469 Speaker 2: Christina robert, our podcast editor and every low our research 972 00:44:57,469 --> 00:45:05,100 Speaker 2: writer signing off until next time.