1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,310 Speaker 1: This is a C. N. A. Podcast 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:08,670 Speaker 2: as breaking news go. This was a shocker if not 3 00:00:08,670 --> 00:00:13,590 Speaker 2: among Singapore residents for certain among the sporting fraternity. Singapore's 4 00:00:13,590 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 2: golden boy and olympic medalist joseph schooling. And his fellow 5 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:20,590 Speaker 2: national swimmer Amanda lim were cautioned for consuming cannabis when 6 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:22,930 Speaker 2: they were in Vietnam for the sea Games in May 7 00:00:22,930 --> 00:00:23,560 Speaker 2: this year. 8 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:28,230 Speaker 2: Unsurprisingly this has lit up on social media. We had 9 00:00:28,230 --> 00:00:30,710 Speaker 2: a look at the thousands of comments online and in 10 00:00:30,710 --> 00:00:34,220 Speaker 2: general most seemed to be supportive of him. Here's a 11 00:00:34,220 --> 00:00:38,780 Speaker 2: typical response Marie chan said. It seems a momentary lapse. 12 00:00:38,790 --> 00:00:42,750 Speaker 2: While overseas he's no drug addict. He admitted his mistake. 13 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 2: He has done a lot for the country. 14 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:47,870 Speaker 2: We want to get into some of the burning questions 15 00:00:47,870 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 2: that have come up. Should we forgive him because he 16 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,750 Speaker 2: had a hard time with bad form and losing his father. 17 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 2: Should we go easy on him because it was quote unquote, 18 00:00:57,610 --> 00:00:58,930 Speaker 2: just marijuana. 19 00:00:59,820 --> 00:01:02,830 Speaker 2: And does the stressful world of elite sports have anything 20 00:01:02,830 --> 00:01:05,850 Speaker 2: to do with how athletes conduct themselves in private 21 00:01:09,750 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 2: with me today. Uh Nicholas Fang, founder and managing director 22 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:17,199 Speaker 2: of communications consultancy black dot Hi everyone. Thanks for having me. 23 00:01:17,209 --> 00:01:19,899 Speaker 2: Eugene Tan, associate professor of law at S. M. U. 24 00:01:19,910 --> 00:01:23,430 Speaker 2: Who was also the team manager of Singapore's 2004 Athens 25 00:01:23,430 --> 00:01:26,789 Speaker 2: olympics national swim team. Thank you. Always a pleasure to 26 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:27,740 Speaker 2: be on the program. 27 00:01:28,620 --> 00:01:32,130 Speaker 2: Omar Ali Saifuddin senior lecturer at the school of Humanities 28 00:01:32,130 --> 00:01:35,530 Speaker 2: and behavioral sciences at the Singapore University of social sciences. 29 00:01:35,540 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 2: Hi 30 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:36,900 Speaker 1: everyone. 31 00:01:36,910 --> 00:01:40,069 Speaker 2: Well thanks all for coming in quick round of reactions 32 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,830 Speaker 2: in the room. What was your first thought and reaction 33 00:01:42,830 --> 00:01:45,350 Speaker 2: when you heard the news and explain why you felt 34 00:01:45,350 --> 00:01:46,289 Speaker 2: that way? Nick? 35 00:01:46,730 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 2: Well, obviously, I think a little bit disappointed as a 36 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,020 Speaker 2: former athlete myself, I would say that it's not completely 37 00:01:53,020 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 2: unheard of to see athletes go a little bit off 38 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,150 Speaker 2: the rails, The pressures and the stresses that are on 39 00:01:59,150 --> 00:02:02,090 Speaker 2: athletes to perform, especially those at the very highest level 40 00:02:02,090 --> 00:02:05,750 Speaker 2: of sport are significant and beyond the comprehension for most 41 00:02:05,750 --> 00:02:07,450 Speaker 2: of us, including myself, because I know 42 00:02:07,466 --> 00:02:09,526 Speaker 2: never quite made it to that level, but at the 43 00:02:09,526 --> 00:02:12,346 Speaker 2: same time, we know many athletes who have off seasons, 44 00:02:12,346 --> 00:02:14,106 Speaker 2: they sort of try to blow off steam in what 45 00:02:14,106 --> 00:02:16,166 Speaker 2: I would say the regular way that most of us 46 00:02:16,166 --> 00:02:19,365 Speaker 2: know a little bit of partying, maybe some drinks taking 47 00:02:19,366 --> 00:02:21,865 Speaker 2: a break from training and sport. But then of course 48 00:02:21,866 --> 00:02:25,576 Speaker 2: you do hear of some super elite athletes like Michael Phelps, 49 00:02:25,586 --> 00:02:28,190 Speaker 2: Shakeri Richardson most recently in the U 50 00:02:28,202 --> 00:02:32,091 Speaker 2: US who crossed the line into more illicit substances. So 51 00:02:32,102 --> 00:02:35,962 Speaker 2: while not entirely surprised to hear of another high level athlete, 52 00:02:35,972 --> 00:02:38,651 Speaker 2: just so happens, that is a Singaporean, olympic gold medalist 53 00:02:38,651 --> 00:02:40,812 Speaker 2: ending up in that situation. I was a bit disappointed 54 00:02:40,812 --> 00:02:43,832 Speaker 2: because joseph has been an inspiration and a role model 55 00:02:43,832 --> 00:02:45,832 Speaker 2: to many and you're definitely not alone. I think many 56 00:02:45,832 --> 00:02:47,922 Speaker 2: felt that way. A bit surprised, but a bit disappointed 57 00:02:47,922 --> 00:02:48,931 Speaker 2: as well. Eugene. 58 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:54,010 Speaker 2: I thought it was fake news because the idea that 59 00:02:54,010 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 2: someone who is an elite athlete is aware of the 60 00:02:57,169 --> 00:03:00,820 Speaker 2: challenges that he faces, that he would do better than 61 00:03:00,820 --> 00:03:04,070 Speaker 2: to succumb to taking drugs. If you can't take the 62 00:03:04,070 --> 00:03:06,330 Speaker 2: heat in the kitchen, then you should get out. 63 00:03:06,540 --> 00:03:09,139 Speaker 2: As I said, I couldn't believe it. Like nick, I 64 00:03:09,139 --> 00:03:11,990 Speaker 2: think disappointed. So you kind of expected more from him. 65 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,180 Speaker 2: Oh definitely, definitely when 66 00:03:15,180 --> 00:03:17,750 Speaker 1: the news first broke out, what I was afraid of 67 00:03:17,750 --> 00:03:21,410 Speaker 1: has actually come to pass you see of course there's sympathy. 68 00:03:21,419 --> 00:03:25,010 Speaker 1: I can imagine the kind of struggles anyone goes through 69 00:03:25,020 --> 00:03:28,739 Speaker 1: joseph schooling as a personality or otherwise. But the thing 70 00:03:28,740 --> 00:03:31,470 Speaker 1: is that right now the issue is getting conflated with 71 00:03:31,470 --> 00:03:32,310 Speaker 1: other things 72 00:03:32,610 --> 00:03:35,470 Speaker 1: and suddenly it's not just about joseph schooling, it's about 73 00:03:35,470 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: the zero tolerance policy on drugs, it's about cannabis. Now, 74 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: these two issues are getting mired together and need to 75 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 1: de link the two of them 76 00:03:44,180 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: and really take a look at those issues because at 77 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:50,650 Speaker 1: no point should we actually think that this is basically 78 00:03:50,650 --> 00:03:53,130 Speaker 1: an indication that we need to go soft on drugs. 79 00:03:53,140 --> 00:03:56,090 Speaker 1: Absolutely not. And I'll talk more about this and 80 00:03:56,090 --> 00:03:57,830 Speaker 2: you've raised a big point because that is what we're 81 00:03:57,830 --> 00:04:00,810 Speaker 2: gonna dive into because overall, we've noticed there's a lot 82 00:04:00,810 --> 00:04:03,940 Speaker 2: of sympathy for him, a lot of people feel and say, well, 83 00:04:03,950 --> 00:04:06,390 Speaker 2: you know, he's been through a hard time. In fact 84 00:04:06,390 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 2: the BBC pushed a piece saying that the story has 85 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:10,370 Speaker 2: divided public opinion, 86 00:04:10,540 --> 00:04:13,650 Speaker 2: Some have commented online, every young person makes mistakes. This 87 00:04:13,650 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 2: is nothing, you know, even I've tried it overseas. So yes, 88 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,119 Speaker 2: there is that conflicting issue. Are we more forgiving? Because 89 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,670 Speaker 2: this is joseph schooling our golden boy. I think so. 90 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:26,530 Speaker 2: I think in a way he has built up that 91 00:04:26,529 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 2: reservoir of goodwill by winning Singapore's first and only olympic 92 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,450 Speaker 2: gold medal and also in an olympic record time. He's 93 00:04:35,450 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 2: really boy next door that we're all terribly proud of. 94 00:04:38,810 --> 00:04:40,270 Speaker 2: He's seen as like one of us. 95 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 2: So I think that goodwill that he has generated has 96 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 2: served him well and I think that partly explains to 97 00:04:46,560 --> 00:04:51,420 Speaker 2: me why we tend to cut him a bit more slack. 98 00:04:51,430 --> 00:04:54,020 Speaker 2: I think we would probably take a different approach or 99 00:04:54,029 --> 00:04:57,550 Speaker 2: a different reaction if it was just another ordinary bloke. Yeah, 100 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 2: this was a former ex convict for example. I do 101 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,180 Speaker 2: think that there's a bit of a conflict inherent in 102 00:05:03,180 --> 00:05:06,340 Speaker 2: that approach because what do we expect from our champions 103 00:05:06,350 --> 00:05:07,929 Speaker 2: when they are winning 104 00:05:07,940 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 2: and they are receiving all the accolades and praise for 105 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,290 Speaker 2: being the best in the world. We put them on 106 00:05:13,290 --> 00:05:16,020 Speaker 2: a pedestal and then when they make mistakes because oh 107 00:05:16,020 --> 00:05:18,100 Speaker 2: well he's just a regular guy, it's just a normal 108 00:05:18,100 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 2: human being. I think if you're going to enjoy the 109 00:05:20,730 --> 00:05:23,330 Speaker 2: trappings of success, you have to accept and most of 110 00:05:23,330 --> 00:05:26,250 Speaker 2: the elite athletes do that you are an icon, your 111 00:05:26,250 --> 00:05:29,450 Speaker 2: role model, you're an example, little kids look up to you, 112 00:05:29,460 --> 00:05:31,550 Speaker 2: parents would be saying that if you try hard, you know, 113 00:05:31,550 --> 00:05:33,500 Speaker 2: one day you could be like joseph schooling 114 00:05:33,650 --> 00:05:35,469 Speaker 2: and I just don't want them to now turn around 115 00:05:35,470 --> 00:05:37,700 Speaker 2: and say, well don't be like joseph schooling. It's also 116 00:05:37,700 --> 00:05:41,290 Speaker 2: the expectations that we have from people who we consider 117 00:05:41,290 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 2: our role models, maybe leaders in power. I recall not 118 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,090 Speaker 2: too long ago the Finnish Prime Minister got a bit 119 00:05:47,089 --> 00:05:49,310 Speaker 2: of hot suit when she was seen partying with her 120 00:05:49,310 --> 00:05:53,650 Speaker 2: friends dancing the night away, totally normal for an ordinary person, 121 00:05:53,650 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 2: but didn't seem acceptable for 122 00:05:55,425 --> 00:05:58,114 Speaker 2: I think that would have been acceptable for joseph if 123 00:05:58,115 --> 00:05:59,775 Speaker 2: that was all he had done and not crossed the 124 00:05:59,775 --> 00:06:02,835 Speaker 2: line into as Omar was saying the more illegal illicit 125 00:06:02,835 --> 00:06:05,455 Speaker 2: aspect of drug abuse. So, if you've just been partying 126 00:06:05,464 --> 00:06:07,075 Speaker 2: and having a really good time, I think a lot 127 00:06:07,075 --> 00:06:08,895 Speaker 2: of people would be more than okay with that. I 128 00:06:08,895 --> 00:06:09,825 Speaker 2: think we'll be fine with him. 129 00:06:09,825 --> 00:06:13,025 Speaker 1: I was just thinking what if it's not joseph schooling? 130 00:06:13,035 --> 00:06:16,735 Speaker 1: What if it was a school dropout from a family? 131 00:06:16,735 --> 00:06:19,125 Speaker 1: Have never even heard of? What if he or she 132 00:06:19,125 --> 00:06:22,685 Speaker 1: got into that same situation and people fall. People falter 133 00:06:22,695 --> 00:06:24,675 Speaker 1: people fall. It happens 134 00:06:25,020 --> 00:06:27,860 Speaker 1: the same level of sympathy. Would we be hearing that? 135 00:06:27,870 --> 00:06:31,179 Speaker 1: Or would some other narratives start coming in? This is 136 00:06:31,180 --> 00:06:34,110 Speaker 1: what I'm wondering about? No, I'm very, very happy to 137 00:06:34,110 --> 00:06:37,500 Speaker 1: see that a lot of singaporeans are forgiving. They recognize 138 00:06:37,500 --> 00:06:40,390 Speaker 1: him for all the contributions. So do I I'm very 139 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: impressed with him. The thing is that yes, he fell 140 00:06:43,410 --> 00:06:45,980 Speaker 1: and yes, we can forgive and we can help him 141 00:06:45,980 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: rise again. I strongly believe in that now apply that 142 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:50,370 Speaker 1: to everybody else. 143 00:06:50,810 --> 00:06:53,310 Speaker 2: So you're saying we should not look at him any 144 00:06:53,310 --> 00:06:55,130 Speaker 2: differently from anybody 145 00:06:55,130 --> 00:06:56,130 Speaker 1: else. Absolutely. 146 00:06:56,140 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 2: And that's what the government is saying that we're treating him. 147 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,119 Speaker 2: Mendes has said they come in exactly the same measure supply. 148 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 2: But yet this outpouring of sympathy is obviously skewed, right? 149 00:07:04,970 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 2: Because he is joseph schooling 150 00:07:06,770 --> 00:07:10,220 Speaker 1: because he's a media personality and obviously the limelight is 151 00:07:10,220 --> 00:07:13,530 Speaker 1: going to be on him and him alone. You're going 152 00:07:13,530 --> 00:07:15,940 Speaker 1: to see a lot of narratives about sympathy coming in 153 00:07:15,950 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: at the same time. Do remember while joseph schooling is 154 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: going through these issues 155 00:07:20,650 --> 00:07:24,100 Speaker 1: in Singapore, how many people out there are struggling with 156 00:07:24,100 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: drug abuse right now as we speak. 157 00:07:27,210 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 2: What if joseph had had a good year lately? He 158 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,490 Speaker 2: hasn't been performing as good in that sense. But if 159 00:07:33,490 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 2: he had been doing really well and then he did 160 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:38,100 Speaker 2: this to would we still be as forgiving? 161 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:41,860 Speaker 2: I think even more so we take the view that 162 00:07:41,870 --> 00:07:44,980 Speaker 2: as Nick mentioned earlier, we tend to put our champions 163 00:07:44,990 --> 00:07:47,370 Speaker 2: on a pedestal. And so I think if you was 164 00:07:47,370 --> 00:07:50,300 Speaker 2: doing well, people will be even more prepared. I think 165 00:07:50,300 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 2: people will say that the demands, let's not get too 166 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:56,230 Speaker 2: harsh on him when we're mentioning of how the issues 167 00:07:56,230 --> 00:07:59,490 Speaker 2: get conflated. That's probably a very dangerous line to take. 168 00:07:59,820 --> 00:08:03,420 Speaker 2: But certainly joseph schooling is joseph schooling and he is 169 00:08:03,420 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 2: able to sway people. So from his point of view, actually, 170 00:08:06,770 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 2: good year, bad year, he gets sympathy both ways, which 171 00:08:11,210 --> 00:08:13,690 Speaker 2: is quite interesting as a sort of comparison Michael Phelps, 172 00:08:13,690 --> 00:08:16,740 Speaker 2: who joseph beat to win the gold medal in rio 173 00:08:16,890 --> 00:08:20,100 Speaker 2: shortly after his sort of breakout olympic games in 2008 174 00:08:20,100 --> 00:08:22,780 Speaker 2: in Beijing, where he won eight gold medals in one games, 175 00:08:22,790 --> 00:08:27,260 Speaker 2: he was photographed smoking a marijuana pipe, was never tested positive, 176 00:08:27,270 --> 00:08:29,820 Speaker 2: just like joseph in terms of urine tests, but he 177 00:08:29,820 --> 00:08:33,069 Speaker 2: was suspended for three months. So he was really riding 178 00:08:33,070 --> 00:08:35,290 Speaker 2: high and he had a crash just less than a 179 00:08:35,290 --> 00:08:38,540 Speaker 2: year after his breakout Olympic games in Beijing, but he 180 00:08:38,540 --> 00:08:41,030 Speaker 2: still managed to find his way back, carry on winning 181 00:08:41,030 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 2: and become one of the greatest, if not the greatest 182 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 2: swimmer in history. 183 00:08:44,540 --> 00:08:46,700 Speaker 2: So, I'm interested to see what's next for joseph and 184 00:08:46,700 --> 00:08:49,630 Speaker 2: how he could potentially redeem himself, Stephen for a country 185 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:53,000 Speaker 2: that is staff of sporting success, particularly at the highest level. 186 00:08:53,010 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 2: I think joseph has a certain quality about him and 187 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,140 Speaker 2: I think that has earned him, as I mentioned earlier 188 00:08:59,140 --> 00:09:01,900 Speaker 2: a lot of goodwill and I think hopefully he will 189 00:09:01,900 --> 00:09:05,510 Speaker 2: tap on this good, will recognize that Singaporeans generally are 190 00:09:05,510 --> 00:09:06,380 Speaker 2: behind him 191 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 2: and be that role model again in overcoming this very 192 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:12,670 Speaker 2: significant setback. 193 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:14,830 Speaker 1: I think something really good can come out of this 194 00:09:14,830 --> 00:09:16,780 Speaker 1: as well. I know it may sound odd at this 195 00:09:16,780 --> 00:09:19,260 Speaker 1: point to say that, but it's all about the iceberg 196 00:09:19,270 --> 00:09:24,550 Speaker 1: what lies beneath not just sports people, personalities, media stars, 197 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,300 Speaker 1: James Dean at the height of his career, killed himself. 198 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:33,459 Speaker 1: Now the thing is that it does point the spotlight 199 00:09:33,470 --> 00:09:37,270 Speaker 1: on the personal struggles that everyone is going through. So 200 00:09:37,270 --> 00:09:39,500 Speaker 1: if anything good that might come out of this is 201 00:09:39,500 --> 00:09:42,580 Speaker 1: that perhaps we can grow as a nation to be 202 00:09:42,580 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: more empathetic, to be gracious, to be aware of the 203 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:48,610 Speaker 1: struggles that anyone, mental health, 204 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:53,189 Speaker 1: personal issues, welfare issues that they are going through. And 205 00:09:53,190 --> 00:09:55,500 Speaker 1: I think if we move in that direction, if it 206 00:09:55,510 --> 00:10:00,770 Speaker 1: teaches us to explore this more, I think something good 207 00:10:00,770 --> 00:10:01,530 Speaker 1: can come out of this 208 00:10:01,540 --> 00:10:04,890 Speaker 2: very true indeed. I think every time something bad in 209 00:10:04,890 --> 00:10:07,150 Speaker 2: a way it happens if we don't learn from those 210 00:10:07,150 --> 00:10:10,430 Speaker 2: mistakes then what? But in this case let's talk about 211 00:10:10,429 --> 00:10:13,220 Speaker 2: the pr spin as well because there was concern that 212 00:10:13,220 --> 00:10:15,840 Speaker 2: he would lose his sponsors. But the big brand Hugo 213 00:10:15,840 --> 00:10:17,950 Speaker 2: boss has come out to say we're still behind you. 214 00:10:18,210 --> 00:10:21,709 Speaker 2: Does this send the wrong message in any way? Well, 215 00:10:21,710 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 2: I think we have to be very clear eyed about 216 00:10:24,370 --> 00:10:27,900 Speaker 2: corporate sponsorship and the objectives that companies want to achieve 217 00:10:27,900 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 2: when they support athletes. Obviously there's a brand recognition and 218 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 2: promotion and air time for the various brands for Hugo 219 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,490 Speaker 2: boss to come out in this way, positions themselves very 220 00:10:38,500 --> 00:10:42,790 Speaker 2: much as committed and supportive company, potentially, maybe even a 221 00:10:42,790 --> 00:10:45,590 Speaker 2: slightly edgy company, you know, in terms of getting behind 222 00:10:45,590 --> 00:10:48,170 Speaker 2: an athlete in a way saying it's ok. 223 00:10:48,590 --> 00:10:50,959 Speaker 2: I think that is again coming to almost point about 224 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,790 Speaker 2: whether issues that get conflated, I think supporting an athlete 225 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:57,270 Speaker 2: who's struggling, who's gone through some challenges is a good thing, 226 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,500 Speaker 2: but it again becomes dragged into. I support a more 227 00:11:00,500 --> 00:11:04,349 Speaker 2: permissive environment when it comes to even soft recreational drugs 228 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,100 Speaker 2: that can be very, very dangerous. I know, Stephen, the 229 00:11:07,100 --> 00:11:10,030 Speaker 2: boss of Hugo boss here in Singapore and Asia, hopefully 230 00:11:10,030 --> 00:11:13,179 Speaker 2: they make it very clear what they are actually supporting, 231 00:11:13,179 --> 00:11:16,590 Speaker 2: you know, supporting a drug lifestyle, but they're supporting an 232 00:11:16,590 --> 00:11:18,500 Speaker 2: athlete who's going through a tough time. 233 00:11:18,780 --> 00:11:22,069 Speaker 2: And with these restrictions placed on him by Mendes as well, 234 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,530 Speaker 2: would we say that this is almost an end to 235 00:11:24,530 --> 00:11:26,450 Speaker 2: his swimming career? Eugene, 236 00:11:27,179 --> 00:11:29,630 Speaker 2: I hope not, but I think it is probably going 237 00:11:29,630 --> 00:11:34,059 Speaker 2: to bring an end to his career because the lack 238 00:11:34,059 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 2: of training opportunities, the lack of high level competition is 239 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:43,090 Speaker 2: certainly going to affect his ability to perform at the 240 00:11:43,090 --> 00:11:46,370 Speaker 2: highest level. So we could look at 2023 has been 241 00:11:46,370 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 2: completely a washout year that lives Joseph very little time 242 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:56,580 Speaker 2: To qualify for the 2024 Olympics in Paris the nature 243 00:11:56,580 --> 00:12:00,569 Speaker 2: of world class competition in sports a year out can 244 00:12:00,570 --> 00:12:03,590 Speaker 2: have very severe consequences. And it's not as though he 245 00:12:03,590 --> 00:12:06,710 Speaker 2: was riding high in terms of his swimming career. And 246 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:08,970 Speaker 2: it remains to be seen whether he will call time, 247 00:12:08,980 --> 00:12:11,489 Speaker 2: you know, on his swimming career, 248 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:16,340 Speaker 2: that's where he might even evoke even more sympathy. Right? 249 00:12:16,350 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 2: So in a way the logistics of this situation also 250 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 2: make it more challenging for him to perform as an athlete. 251 00:12:22,650 --> 00:12:25,380 Speaker 2: He said he wanted to target the asian games which 252 00:12:25,380 --> 00:12:27,210 Speaker 2: was scheduled for this year, but now they've been pushed 253 00:12:27,220 --> 00:12:30,100 Speaker 2: back a year in china because of the covid situation. 254 00:12:30,100 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 2: So it's gonna be really tough. No major competition, no 255 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:34,679 Speaker 2: opportunities to come up for training. 256 00:12:34,860 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 2: I also feel that if he wants to have a 257 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,730 Speaker 2: redemption story, part of it could be a return to 258 00:12:39,730 --> 00:12:43,630 Speaker 2: sporting competition and at least respectable level, it's gonna be tough. 259 00:12:43,630 --> 00:12:45,660 Speaker 2: So it'll be a big challenge for him. He will 260 00:12:45,660 --> 00:12:48,300 Speaker 2: need to try harder and do better and he might 261 00:12:48,300 --> 00:12:51,380 Speaker 2: simply because as you mentioned of the current situation he's 262 00:12:51,380 --> 00:12:51,660 Speaker 2: in 263 00:12:57,290 --> 00:12:57,750 Speaker 1: Hi, 264 00:12:57,750 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 2: my name is Sarah Khaldi and I'm the host of 265 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 2: a new podcast called Money talks. Yes, we will be 266 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,540 Speaker 2: talking about money, but more than that, we'll also be 267 00:13:05,540 --> 00:13:09,969 Speaker 2: talking about life, personal choices, lucky breaks and how money 268 00:13:09,970 --> 00:13:12,940 Speaker 2: is the thread running through it all. So look out 269 00:13:12,940 --> 00:13:15,429 Speaker 2: for our episodes wherever you get your podcasts. 270 00:13:23,170 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 2: Okay, let's move on. We want to talk about the 271 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 2: conflicted issue of Singapore's drug laws or what seems to be, 272 00:13:29,330 --> 00:13:31,580 Speaker 2: you know, a very large proportion of comments all seem 273 00:13:31,580 --> 00:13:34,530 Speaker 2: to suggest that cannabis is is not that bad, it's 274 00:13:34,530 --> 00:13:37,410 Speaker 2: less harmful than your regular hard drugs will be very 275 00:13:37,410 --> 00:13:39,620 Speaker 2: clear here that the drug laws in Singapore have a 276 00:13:39,620 --> 00:13:42,890 Speaker 2: no tolerance approach and have caught you face jail time 277 00:13:42,890 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 2: and hefty fines. It's a big risk to take. But 278 00:13:46,610 --> 00:13:48,530 Speaker 2: why do you think people feel this way? Eugene, let 279 00:13:48,530 --> 00:13:51,290 Speaker 2: me ask you what's behind this? It's only weed. What's 280 00:13:51,290 --> 00:13:51,380 Speaker 2: the 281 00:13:51,380 --> 00:13:52,420 Speaker 1: big deal? 282 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,140 Speaker 2: It might be easy to just attribute it to a 283 00:13:55,140 --> 00:13:58,770 Speaker 2: generational shift. I sense among the younger people a rather 284 00:13:58,770 --> 00:14:01,370 Speaker 2: cavalier attitude, right? It's just wheat. 285 00:14:01,990 --> 00:14:04,430 Speaker 2: I'm not addicted to it. I'm just having fun. I 286 00:14:04,429 --> 00:14:06,870 Speaker 2: will never get addicted to it. It's recreational, it's not 287 00:14:06,870 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 2: hard drugs. If I were CMB or M. H. A. 288 00:14:10,679 --> 00:14:13,230 Speaker 2: I think I would have lots of reason to worry 289 00:14:13,230 --> 00:14:15,710 Speaker 2: because I think it's a mere rightly pointed out. Part 290 00:14:15,710 --> 00:14:19,420 Speaker 2: of the sympathy also relates to joseph being joseph schooling. 291 00:14:19,430 --> 00:14:22,030 Speaker 2: The one and only olympic chain that we have. But 292 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,130 Speaker 2: the other part is, look, it's a minor try 293 00:14:24,570 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 2: why are we so hard? We almost went with pride 294 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 2: was like, oh, when I was studying overseas I did 295 00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:30,730 Speaker 2: it a few times. It's almost a badge of honor 296 00:14:30,730 --> 00:14:32,930 Speaker 2: to a certain young people saying, you know, I tried 297 00:14:32,930 --> 00:14:35,450 Speaker 2: cannabis chocolate. Look, I'm still all right and I'm still 298 00:14:35,450 --> 00:14:38,170 Speaker 2: doing okay. But I think we are putting ourselves on 299 00:14:38,170 --> 00:14:40,290 Speaker 2: a slippery slope if we think that 300 00:14:40,510 --> 00:14:44,420 Speaker 2: these soft drugs don't matter too much. I think omar 301 00:14:44,420 --> 00:14:47,170 Speaker 2: obviously it would be a better position to talk specifically 302 00:14:47,170 --> 00:14:49,690 Speaker 2: about this. When I look at the issue of the 303 00:14:49,690 --> 00:14:53,230 Speaker 2: more permissive environment, I think if people are educated enough 304 00:14:53,230 --> 00:14:55,450 Speaker 2: and know the background and the risk that a country 305 00:14:55,450 --> 00:14:57,900 Speaker 2: like Singapore faces, we wouldn't be so quick to say, 306 00:14:57,900 --> 00:14:59,820 Speaker 2: well other countries are doing it so we should do 307 00:14:59,820 --> 00:15:02,370 Speaker 2: it too. I think that never works for Singapore and 308 00:15:02,370 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 2: the uniqueness and the position that we have. Many organizations, 309 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 2: the National Council against Drug abuse and the CNB and 310 00:15:09,450 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 2: Other Ministry. 311 00:15:09,970 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 2: We are working very hard to educate the youth, especially 312 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,810 Speaker 2: about the potential dangers of taking this slightly more as 313 00:15:16,810 --> 00:15:20,860 Speaker 2: Eugene put a cavalier attitude, more permissive environment. Because our 314 00:15:20,860 --> 00:15:24,020 Speaker 2: second that the sentiment, it is a very, very slippery slope. 315 00:15:24,030 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 2: We mustn't forget, yes, it is still a drug. But 316 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:28,370 Speaker 2: the big question is, how are we going to deal 317 00:15:28,370 --> 00:15:30,870 Speaker 2: with in the future? Because in some countries it's legal. 318 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 2: And we're talking countries like Canada Thailand South Africa and 319 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 2: studies have shown that our young people are much more 320 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,430 Speaker 2: liberal towards cannabis. So 321 00:15:39,610 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 2: you weren't CNB before, you've been there done that. Are 322 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:44,470 Speaker 2: we swimming against the tide on this issue? 323 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: Very much swimming against the tide with regards to popular culture, 324 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,180 Speaker 1: the narratives that are being put out. But the facts 325 00:15:52,180 --> 00:15:55,180 Speaker 1: remain facts now, here's the thing, this is where I'm 326 00:15:55,180 --> 00:16:01,740 Speaker 1: getting very concerned, popular culture counterculture, the kind of narratives 327 00:16:01,740 --> 00:16:03,220 Speaker 1: that we see over media 328 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,730 Speaker 1: that's basically flooding our youth and when they go and 329 00:16:06,730 --> 00:16:10,110 Speaker 1: study overseas, the kind of environments that they are exposed 330 00:16:10,110 --> 00:16:12,630 Speaker 1: to and so on. It's very hard not to get 331 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: caught up in all that glitter. Now, this is very, 332 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,430 Speaker 1: very scary because the victim here are the facts as 333 00:16:20,430 --> 00:16:23,470 Speaker 1: a former narcotics officer and I'm just speaking from experience only, 334 00:16:23,470 --> 00:16:26,990 Speaker 1: I'm just saying I've seen lives destroyed. All right, 335 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,090 Speaker 1: I can tell you about medical facts and a lot 336 00:16:29,090 --> 00:16:32,090 Speaker 1: of medical, credible medical facts out there that can tell 337 00:16:32,090 --> 00:16:36,690 Speaker 1: a lot about how dangerous cannabis is. But you don't 338 00:16:36,690 --> 00:16:39,010 Speaker 1: even need to look at that. You just need to 339 00:16:39,010 --> 00:16:42,150 Speaker 1: look in the eyes of every single person whose life 340 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,350 Speaker 1: has been destroyed by cannabis and that is the most 341 00:16:45,350 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: powerful evidence you will ever get. Let me tell you 342 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: something else 343 00:16:49,470 --> 00:16:54,900 Speaker 1: when Thailand started to legalize cannabis upon them, basically decriminalizing 344 00:16:54,900 --> 00:16:59,010 Speaker 1: cannabis already. You were seeing people being hospitalized Now, the 345 00:16:59,010 --> 00:17:03,270 Speaker 1: thing is that you cannot stop this, you can't put 346 00:17:03,270 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: the genie back in the bottle once they think that 347 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:09,270 Speaker 1: you can control something like narcotics abuse with just a 348 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:14,040 Speaker 1: low level of purity, it never ever stops there. Eventually 349 00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,030 Speaker 1: just like what the United States and the rest of 350 00:17:16,030 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: the world is saying 351 00:17:17,330 --> 00:17:21,230 Speaker 1: the purity level of tetrahydrocannabinol, that's the stuff that gives 352 00:17:21,230 --> 00:17:23,510 Speaker 1: the high and addiction and so on. That is going 353 00:17:23,510 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: to keep increasing and this is what we are seeing 354 00:17:26,090 --> 00:17:32,300 Speaker 1: happening all over the world, people getting addicted, yes, addicted 355 00:17:32,310 --> 00:17:37,130 Speaker 1: undergoing psychosis, depression, all kinds of horrible things happening because 356 00:17:37,140 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: bit by bit, it's a gateway. It's a slippery slope. 357 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:40,880 Speaker 1: Like what you mentioned, Eugene, 358 00:17:41,180 --> 00:17:45,180 Speaker 1: you know, that slippery slope happens exponentially. So 359 00:17:45,180 --> 00:17:47,690 Speaker 2: that door has been opened. These 360 00:17:47,690 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: are the facts and here's the best, the best part 361 00:17:49,970 --> 00:17:52,870 Speaker 1: nobody's looking at it, nobody's talking about it because it's 362 00:17:52,869 --> 00:17:55,790 Speaker 1: not sexy to talk about this. I'd rather talk about 363 00:17:55,790 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 1: the music. I'd rather talk about the fun and the 364 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: opening up of my senses and so on. 365 00:18:00,010 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 2: But the challenge is that, I mean 366 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 2: yeah, that's the so called upside 367 00:18:05,940 --> 00:18:08,430 Speaker 1: the new age stuff and all that. I understand perfectly. 368 00:18:08,430 --> 00:18:12,119 Speaker 1: It all sounds really nice. Take away the glitter. This 369 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: is what you'll see. These are the hard facts that 370 00:18:14,810 --> 00:18:17,190 Speaker 1: cannot be hidden. 371 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,060 Speaker 2: But the fact is people will be traveling and they'll 372 00:18:20,060 --> 00:18:22,190 Speaker 2: be overseas and they say, oh I'm here on holiday 373 00:18:22,190 --> 00:18:23,699 Speaker 2: is legal in this country. 374 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:26,060 Speaker 2: I want to give it a try. Eugene, I want 375 00:18:26,060 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 2: to ask you this question because legally, even if that happens, 376 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 2: I was just in Bangkok a few months ago and 377 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:31,730 Speaker 2: they said, oh come back end of the year, I'll 378 00:18:31,730 --> 00:18:34,740 Speaker 2: give you a cannabis oil massage. I was like, let 379 00:18:34,740 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 2: me think about that, you know. So I've heard the 380 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:42,659 Speaker 2: term of extra territorial jurisdiction. What does it actually mean? Well, 381 00:18:42,660 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 2: it simply just means that an act committed overseas which 382 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:49,630 Speaker 2: would be a crime in Singapore would be treated as 383 00:18:49,630 --> 00:18:51,540 Speaker 2: though it was committed here? 384 00:18:51,730 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 2: Right? So which means that the law can ensnare if 385 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 2: I can put it that way citizens of Singapore who 386 00:18:58,040 --> 00:18:59,530 Speaker 2: consume drugs abroad, 387 00:18:59,770 --> 00:19:01,820 Speaker 2: you will be treated as though they had consumed the 388 00:19:01,820 --> 00:19:04,729 Speaker 2: drugs in single, even though it's legal in Thailand and 389 00:19:04,730 --> 00:19:07,470 Speaker 2: I took it there when I come back to Singapore, 390 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,030 Speaker 2: it's still against the law. Yes. If they put you 391 00:19:10,030 --> 00:19:12,490 Speaker 2: through a urine test and it comes back positive, you 392 00:19:12,490 --> 00:19:15,860 Speaker 2: can be charged for committing an offense as though it 393 00:19:15,859 --> 00:19:19,580 Speaker 2: was committed in Singapore. Now, extra territory offenses are very 394 00:19:19,580 --> 00:19:21,830 Speaker 2: fine and few right? Because they pose a lot of 395 00:19:21,830 --> 00:19:23,919 Speaker 2: tricky issues, particularly with another country. 396 00:19:24,090 --> 00:19:27,190 Speaker 2: But very often these laws that have extra territorial reach, 397 00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:30,490 Speaker 2: it demonstrates how the law regards such acts and other 398 00:19:30,490 --> 00:19:33,669 Speaker 2: law would be corruption. For example, there's where the provincial 399 00:19:33,670 --> 00:19:38,010 Speaker 2: corruption has extra territorial reach. They signify that this is 400 00:19:38,020 --> 00:19:41,310 Speaker 2: our approach. And just because you're out of jurisdiction so 401 00:19:41,310 --> 00:19:44,010 Speaker 2: called in another country doesn't mean that you can get 402 00:19:44,010 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 2: away with it. 403 00:19:45,500 --> 00:19:50,100 Speaker 2: So it really reflects that zero tolerance approach to drugs. 404 00:19:50,109 --> 00:19:53,510 Speaker 1: Just think of it logically, imagine the kind of door 405 00:19:53,510 --> 00:19:57,220 Speaker 1: that sort of opens up. So don't consume drugs in Singapore, 406 00:19:57,230 --> 00:19:59,710 Speaker 1: don't consume. Kind of just go on a drug holiday. 407 00:19:59,710 --> 00:20:03,030 Speaker 1: Too many of these nations and come back once you 408 00:20:03,030 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: start opening that door, Can you imagine what that does 409 00:20:05,850 --> 00:20:08,330 Speaker 1: more and more Singaporeans saying yes, Do you think you 410 00:20:08,330 --> 00:20:11,530 Speaker 1: can just stop that at just that point itself? What 411 00:20:11,530 --> 00:20:14,450 Speaker 1: do you think that individual eventually gets up to one 412 00:20:14,450 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 1: door leads to another? That's what I'm trying to say, 413 00:20:17,290 --> 00:20:20,620 Speaker 1: It is a gateway. It will never stop just at 414 00:20:20,619 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 1: that he or she will bring it back to Singapore 415 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: at some point. 416 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:25,980 Speaker 2: I think one of the challenges we face is that 417 00:20:25,990 --> 00:20:28,730 Speaker 2: it's great that we push out these messages and information, 418 00:20:28,730 --> 00:20:31,140 Speaker 2: especially to young people, but it doesn't sound very appealing. 419 00:20:31,140 --> 00:20:34,140 Speaker 2: It's a very top down, it's a slightly paternalistic messaging 420 00:20:34,350 --> 00:20:37,429 Speaker 2: that's unfortunate when it comes to our situation with regards 421 00:20:37,430 --> 00:20:39,780 Speaker 2: to drug abuse in the country. So I think about 422 00:20:39,780 --> 00:20:42,180 Speaker 2: finding the right way to educate people and to make 423 00:20:42,180 --> 00:20:44,390 Speaker 2: sure that they come on board with this very important 424 00:20:44,390 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 2: message and bring it back to joseph is completely his decision. 425 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,870 Speaker 2: But if he chooses to take up this role to 426 00:20:50,869 --> 00:20:53,869 Speaker 2: educate people from his own personal experience, I think he 427 00:20:53,869 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 2: could do a lot of good because as we've spoken, 428 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,290 Speaker 2: there's a lot of goodwill around him, he can speak 429 00:20:58,290 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 2: with some authority as somebody who has made a mistake 430 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,370 Speaker 2: and hopefully change the tide when it comes to the 431 00:21:03,369 --> 00:21:05,810 Speaker 2: narrative of cannabis use and the risk of a more 432 00:21:05,810 --> 00:21:07,780 Speaker 2: permissive environment. So fingers crossed 433 00:21:07,780 --> 00:21:09,900 Speaker 1: Nicholas, I just gotta add on your spot on on 434 00:21:09,900 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: this because you see our old approach of basically drawing 435 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,060 Speaker 1: a line in the sand is not going to work anymore. 436 00:21:16,070 --> 00:21:18,620 Speaker 1: All right, to a younger audience to a new generation 437 00:21:18,619 --> 00:21:21,340 Speaker 1: of audience. You can't just say don't do that, that's wrong. 438 00:21:21,350 --> 00:21:24,010 Speaker 1: All right. They're gonna need a lot more than that. 439 00:21:24,020 --> 00:21:26,850 Speaker 1: And the thing is that our narratives need to get stronger, 440 00:21:26,859 --> 00:21:29,770 Speaker 1: Our counter narratives need to get more intelligent 441 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:32,550 Speaker 1: and they also need to be more compassionate as well 442 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,220 Speaker 1: to understand what they're going through what they are seeing 443 00:21:35,230 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: and so on and so forth, not infantilizing them, not 444 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: making them feel small, that they don't know any better 445 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,630 Speaker 1: and so on, hearing them out. But then 446 00:21:44,190 --> 00:21:46,699 Speaker 1: telling them, look, there are other things you need to 447 00:21:46,700 --> 00:21:47,740 Speaker 1: consider as well, 448 00:21:47,750 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 2: because some singaporeans do feel that way. They're like, I'm 449 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:52,510 Speaker 2: an adult and a grown adult, I can make my 450 00:21:52,510 --> 00:21:55,470 Speaker 2: own decisions if it's legal in this country. What say 451 00:21:55,470 --> 00:21:58,109 Speaker 2: do you have over my life in another part of 452 00:21:58,109 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 2: the world? So, again, are we being too paternalistic are 453 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,970 Speaker 2: we to top down and what kind of repercussions? Because 454 00:22:05,970 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 2: just earlier we mentioned how Michael Phelps did it, but 455 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 2: then came back even stronger. 456 00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,510 Speaker 2: So some would say, what's the big deal? It really 457 00:22:12,510 --> 00:22:16,450 Speaker 2: is just one slight detour on my road to success, 458 00:22:16,460 --> 00:22:18,910 Speaker 2: but that's where we run into the risk that Oma 459 00:22:18,910 --> 00:22:20,919 Speaker 2: highlighted right at the start, which is the conflation of 460 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:24,250 Speaker 2: the two issues, there's very little evidence to suggest that 461 00:22:24,250 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 2: kind of biscuits, performance enhancing, I don't think actually helps 462 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,510 Speaker 2: athletes in their careers. In fact, there's much more evidence 463 00:22:30,510 --> 00:22:32,469 Speaker 2: to show that you can derail lives and send you 464 00:22:32,470 --> 00:22:32,900 Speaker 2: down the wrong 465 00:22:32,910 --> 00:22:35,950 Speaker 2: path. So to say that it didn't hurt an athlete 466 00:22:35,950 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 2: like Phelps career, I'm not sure if he didn't hurt 467 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,590 Speaker 2: or rather he sort of realized the danger and righted himself. 468 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,530 Speaker 2: I think everyone Eugene especially made the point that it's 469 00:22:45,530 --> 00:22:47,780 Speaker 2: going to be a really tough road for joseph if 470 00:22:47,780 --> 00:22:49,020 Speaker 2: he wants to come back. 471 00:22:49,260 --> 00:22:50,890 Speaker 2: But I think there is a little bit of hope, 472 00:22:50,890 --> 00:22:53,110 Speaker 2: a little bit of optimism, there's an opportunity for him 473 00:22:53,109 --> 00:22:56,030 Speaker 2: to play a role in the sort of anti drug messaging, 474 00:22:56,030 --> 00:22:59,330 Speaker 2: especially with young people and hopefully redeem himself like what 475 00:22:59,330 --> 00:23:01,490 Speaker 2: Phelps did like coming back to become one of the 476 00:23:01,490 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 2: greatest athletes ever, but I think we must be careful, 477 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 2: it's something that joseph must be convicted about convicted, that 478 00:23:08,090 --> 00:23:09,850 Speaker 2: he has seen the light, if I can put it 479 00:23:09,850 --> 00:23:10,730 Speaker 2: that way and that 480 00:23:10,900 --> 00:23:13,389 Speaker 2: he realized that he may have sent a very wrong 481 00:23:13,390 --> 00:23:15,899 Speaker 2: message to many young people and ought to do right, 482 00:23:15,910 --> 00:23:18,140 Speaker 2: but he must be convicted about it in the first place, 483 00:23:18,140 --> 00:23:20,770 Speaker 2: he shouldn't do it because the expectation is that he 484 00:23:20,770 --> 00:23:23,530 Speaker 2: does it because I think that would do a lot 485 00:23:23,530 --> 00:23:26,100 Speaker 2: more harm than good, but is right. I think this 486 00:23:26,100 --> 00:23:27,810 Speaker 2: conveyor belt is something that we need to be very 487 00:23:27,810 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 2: careful about the conveyor belt from soft drugs to harder 488 00:23:31,369 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 2: types of drugs. And the other concern that I think 489 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:35,710 Speaker 2: we should bear in mind is that even if you 490 00:23:35,710 --> 00:23:38,400 Speaker 2: say we consume abroad, we don't bring back the stuff. 491 00:23:38,530 --> 00:23:42,420 Speaker 2: But think about this sort of attitudinal changes that it creates. 492 00:23:42,430 --> 00:23:45,230 Speaker 2: You know, the idea that it's fine, it's all right, 493 00:23:45,230 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 2: don't do it in Singapore, It's just like we just 494 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,210 Speaker 2: drive down the north south highway, break all the traffic 495 00:23:50,220 --> 00:23:52,730 Speaker 2: rules in Malaysia, those sort of thing. I think that's 496 00:23:52,730 --> 00:23:57,590 Speaker 2: very dangerous. So once you have this attitudinal attitudes becoming softer, 497 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,230 Speaker 2: it makes the fight against drugs a lot more harder. 498 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,270 Speaker 1: Let me put it another way. Imagine this as a 499 00:24:04,270 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: kind of roulette fallacy. 500 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,270 Speaker 1: Think of it, you see, you don't see the immediate 501 00:24:08,270 --> 00:24:12,890 Speaker 1: effects because just like roulette next round next round bang, 502 00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: it goes off, it takes time sometimes and many of 503 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:20,060 Speaker 1: these effects. You see it maybe not immediately the next day, 504 00:24:20,070 --> 00:24:23,460 Speaker 1: but over the years it builds up and eventually it 505 00:24:23,460 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: comes to that critical point in which the entire life 506 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,830 Speaker 1: of that individual is ruined, but you have no idea 507 00:24:28,830 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: about this. So people tend to only see what is salient, 508 00:24:32,050 --> 00:24:35,250 Speaker 1: like someone takes it now and the next minute is he? Okay. 509 00:24:36,170 --> 00:24:39,070 Speaker 1: The problem is it doesn't always work like that, you 510 00:24:39,070 --> 00:24:43,220 Speaker 1: will see its effects eventually. It does always catch up 511 00:24:43,230 --> 00:24:45,730 Speaker 2: and the demographics are changing, right? So we tend to 512 00:24:45,730 --> 00:24:48,400 Speaker 2: think in the parts of, you know, drug abusers as 513 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,930 Speaker 2: people who are doing poorly in life uneducated. But when 514 00:24:51,930 --> 00:24:54,540 Speaker 2: you look at the more recent cases over the last 515 00:24:54,550 --> 00:24:59,420 Speaker 2: decade or so, professionals, executives are doing drugs. So the 516 00:24:59,420 --> 00:25:01,880 Speaker 2: idea that oh I'm educated, I'm smart about 517 00:25:01,900 --> 00:25:04,530 Speaker 2: drugs and know when to stop. I think those are 518 00:25:04,530 --> 00:25:06,830 Speaker 2: fallacies that we need to nip in the bud because 519 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,590 Speaker 2: I think it is no longer something that we associate 520 00:25:09,590 --> 00:25:11,050 Speaker 2: with a certain demographic. I think 521 00:25:11,050 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: it absolutely 522 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:13,409 Speaker 2: affects every one of us. 523 00:25:13,420 --> 00:25:15,940 Speaker 1: Usually put it so accurately because once you sort of 524 00:25:15,940 --> 00:25:18,550 Speaker 1: experience it, it will always be a crutch that they 525 00:25:18,550 --> 00:25:22,580 Speaker 1: will turn to when life turns bad, life is not 526 00:25:22,580 --> 00:25:24,510 Speaker 1: always going to be hunky Dory. You know, you're going 527 00:25:24,510 --> 00:25:27,120 Speaker 1: to have some really down moments. What do you think 528 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:28,650 Speaker 1: they're going to turn to in those times? 529 00:25:28,660 --> 00:25:29,260 Speaker 2: Right. 530 00:25:29,700 --> 00:25:32,450 Speaker 2: And if that doorway is open, it means once you've 531 00:25:32,450 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 2: opened it once, it's always 532 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: open. Absolutely! 533 00:25:35,050 --> 00:25:37,649 Speaker 2: Well gentlemen, thank you so much for coming and sharing 534 00:25:37,650 --> 00:25:39,690 Speaker 2: with us today. I think a good reminder that it 535 00:25:39,690 --> 00:25:45,050 Speaker 2: is never just cannabis or just drugs, they're always deeper consequences. 536 00:25:45,060 --> 00:25:47,389 Speaker 2: And even though we think we know better, I think 537 00:25:47,390 --> 00:25:49,530 Speaker 2: the drugs are much smarter than us and somehow get 538 00:25:49,530 --> 00:25:52,010 Speaker 2: into our system in a way we never imagined. So 539 00:25:52,010 --> 00:25:54,260 Speaker 2: thank you all for coming and joining us on Heart 540 00:25:54,260 --> 00:25:55,020 Speaker 2: of the matter, 541 00:25:56,460 --> 00:25:58,850 Speaker 2: if this is your first time listening to this podcast, 542 00:25:58,850 --> 00:26:01,209 Speaker 2: do check out our other episodes. We've done one on 543 00:26:01,210 --> 00:26:04,909 Speaker 2: workers safety on section 377 A and also on inflation. 544 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,449 Speaker 2: And we do love our conversations here. So if you 545 00:26:07,450 --> 00:26:10,350 Speaker 2: have any comments or feedback about this episode, leave us 546 00:26:10,350 --> 00:26:12,070 Speaker 2: a review or write to us at c n a 547 00:26:12,070 --> 00:26:15,730 Speaker 2: podcast at dot com dot SG. The team behind this 548 00:26:15,730 --> 00:26:19,360 Speaker 2: podcast is Joanne, chan, Jacqueline, chan, daniel, lee and Christina 549 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,530 Speaker 2: robert and I'm Stephen signing up.