1 00:00:00,090 --> 00:00:02,390 Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast. 2 00:00:03,579 --> 00:00:06,420 Speaker 1: Hello, everyone. This is Adrian here today. We are tackling 3 00:00:06,429 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: the topic of retrenchments. Not a day goes by without 4 00:00:09,930 --> 00:00:13,000 Speaker 1: some news about company shedding stuff. The one that was 5 00:00:13,010 --> 00:00:16,790 Speaker 1: trending recently was Lazada and there was also Google and 6 00:00:16,799 --> 00:00:20,930 Speaker 1: now Unilever. Yeah. Hi. Hi, Christina here, Adrian. We've talked 7 00:00:20,940 --> 00:00:24,909 Speaker 1: about being retrenched before. Remember our guest was Steven Lock. 8 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: He gave us a first hand account of what it 9 00:00:27,129 --> 00:00:30,530 Speaker 1: is like to be let go today. However, we want 10 00:00:30,540 --> 00:00:31,049 Speaker 1: to take a step, 11 00:00:31,159 --> 00:00:34,259 Speaker 1: step back and look at some of the business realities 12 00:00:34,540 --> 00:00:38,659 Speaker 1: and how companies actually thinking about making cuts and to 13 00:00:38,668 --> 00:00:41,769 Speaker 1: talk us through all. This is J Lim, head of 14 00:00:41,779 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: people and culture at Tatsu works a Singapore based game studio. 15 00:00:46,009 --> 00:00:46,979 Speaker 1: Welcome to work at Jo. 16 00:00:47,310 --> 00:00:49,259 Speaker 2: Hi, guys. Nice to meet all of you. 17 00:00:49,310 --> 00:00:51,900 Speaker 1: Nice to have you. Thank you so much. Perhaps as 18 00:00:51,909 --> 00:00:54,630 Speaker 1: an introduction, could you start by giving us a background 19 00:00:54,639 --> 00:00:57,869 Speaker 1: about your work in hr in general and specifically with 20 00:00:57,939 --> 00:00:58,619 Speaker 1: Tau works? 21 00:00:59,099 --> 00:01:01,180 Speaker 2: Yeah. So I have been working for more than 10 22 00:01:01,189 --> 00:01:04,470 Speaker 2: years and I initially didn't start my career in hr 23 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,759 Speaker 2: I was doing like employment related stuff, uh, employment services 24 00:01:08,769 --> 00:01:12,458 Speaker 2: and also like social service related work. Everything was like 25 00:01:12,470 --> 00:01:14,059 Speaker 2: a fresh start. My first start and I was the 26 00:01:14,069 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 2: first hr person. 27 00:01:15,269 --> 00:01:18,709 Speaker 2: It was really scary because I wasn't trained, I didn't 28 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,230 Speaker 2: have like a diploma or degree in that area. So 29 00:01:21,239 --> 00:01:23,690 Speaker 2: I had to learn a lot of things on the job, 30 00:01:23,980 --> 00:01:26,929 Speaker 2: but I just love it. Although it's really sometimes not 31 00:01:26,940 --> 00:01:29,089 Speaker 2: in a very thankless job from time to time. Actually, 32 00:01:29,099 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 2: most of the time, 33 00:01:31,220 --> 00:01:32,149 Speaker 1: you know, agent will 34 00:01:32,199 --> 00:01:35,010 Speaker 2: know, like making sure that you know, everyone, the culture 35 00:01:35,019 --> 00:01:37,289 Speaker 2: and everything is a very tough and tall order, but 36 00:01:37,300 --> 00:01:38,449 Speaker 2: I still enjoy doing it. 37 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 2: So, yeah, I spent quite a bit of time in 38 00:01:40,690 --> 00:01:43,459 Speaker 2: the start up space. Love it. I love the energy there. 39 00:01:43,470 --> 00:01:45,650 Speaker 2: I love waking up to not knowing what's going to 40 00:01:45,660 --> 00:01:46,940 Speaker 2: happen tomorrow 41 00:01:48,410 --> 00:01:51,389 Speaker 1: so they can go both ways. It can. 42 00:01:51,589 --> 00:01:54,220 Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. Yes. But sometimes it's a yellow spirit, 43 00:01:54,230 --> 00:01:56,860 Speaker 1: right? He's young. That's why he can wake up and 44 00:01:56,949 --> 00:02:02,010 Speaker 1: anticipate chaos for listeners who cannot see Vale he's actually 45 00:02:02,019 --> 00:02:05,660 Speaker 1: 35 but he really look 25. Yes. He, he looks 46 00:02:05,669 --> 00:02:07,970 Speaker 1: like one of my ex poly students. 47 00:02:08,210 --> 00:02:09,589 Speaker 2: I'm so happy. This is on the record. 48 00:02:11,449 --> 00:02:14,388 Speaker 2: Yeah. Then I joined Tau works probably like just two 49 00:02:14,399 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 2: years ago, I think as an ambitious company, I love it, 50 00:02:16,929 --> 00:02:19,309 Speaker 2: given that they are trying to build a game. And 51 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 2: in Singapore based how many studios out there in Singapore 52 00:02:22,008 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 2: are building a game and the game that we are 53 00:02:23,809 --> 00:02:26,679 Speaker 2: building is so massive. We're just looking forward to what 54 00:02:26,690 --> 00:02:31,270 Speaker 2: we can deliver these two years. We have some interesting milestones. So, yeah. 55 00:02:31,410 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, good luck on the game development. Thank you. Ok. 56 00:02:34,089 --> 00:02:37,539 Speaker 1: Coming back to this topic over the past month alone, 57 00:02:38,139 --> 00:02:41,940 Speaker 1: I've heard two people say to me that their company 58 00:02:41,949 --> 00:02:45,630 Speaker 1: is drawing up a list of people who might have 59 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:50,049 Speaker 1: to be moved to like a downsized position or, or 60 00:02:50,059 --> 00:02:54,059 Speaker 1: move to another department or to be let go. Now, 61 00:02:54,070 --> 00:02:57,538 Speaker 1: these aren't tech companies, by the way, just the thought 62 00:02:57,550 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: of management looking at the possibility 63 00:03:01,029 --> 00:03:04,970 Speaker 1: of drawing up a list. Sounds like a bit scary 64 00:03:04,979 --> 00:03:08,350 Speaker 1: to me having done some hr I know it's the 65 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:10,649 Speaker 1: start up space is not quite the same as like 66 00:03:10,660 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 1: a big company. But how does this process of downsizing 67 00:03:15,179 --> 00:03:20,038 Speaker 1: begin from a business perspective? Is it always about you're 68 00:03:20,050 --> 00:03:20,889 Speaker 1: not making money? 69 00:03:21,580 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: So we got a cut and the first thing to 70 00:03:23,529 --> 00:03:25,399 Speaker 1: cut is people biggest 71 00:03:25,410 --> 00:03:28,698 Speaker 2: cost. It's not always about not making enough money. If 72 00:03:28,710 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 2: we look at a lot of the big companies out there, 73 00:03:30,449 --> 00:03:33,970 Speaker 2: they do have some form of healthy profit, but probably 74 00:03:33,979 --> 00:03:36,509 Speaker 2: as compared to last time is not as high anymore, 75 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:39,910 Speaker 2: given that there's a lot of increase in head count cost. 76 00:03:40,259 --> 00:03:43,089 Speaker 2: So I think a lot of these companies out there 77 00:03:43,100 --> 00:03:47,229 Speaker 2: are actually concerned about their financial runway and financial sustainability 78 00:03:47,429 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 2: So it's 79 00:03:47,830 --> 00:03:50,750 Speaker 2: not just about profit is about, can I still pay 80 00:03:50,759 --> 00:03:54,149 Speaker 2: for everyone's salary at this rate? Right. Right. Sometimes it's 81 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,660 Speaker 2: also about the pivoting in business strategy. Companies have to 82 00:03:57,669 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 2: move into new areas. So there's this talk about generative 83 00:04:00,449 --> 00:04:03,460 Speaker 2: A I and I think recently Google also moving to 84 00:04:03,470 --> 00:04:06,229 Speaker 2: that space also trim down their marketing department as well. 85 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:08,559 Speaker 2: Sometimes it is in favor of this kind of business strategy, 86 00:04:08,580 --> 00:04:12,119 Speaker 2: of course, maybe removing certain non-performing investments, we see also 87 00:04:12,130 --> 00:04:13,929 Speaker 2: big tech companies investing like in 88 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,059 Speaker 2: fancy food products and then later realize that it's not 89 00:04:17,070 --> 00:04:18,940 Speaker 2: going to work and then they scrape it off so 90 00:04:18,950 --> 00:04:19,058 Speaker 2: it 91 00:04:19,070 --> 00:04:22,410 Speaker 1: could be either macro environment because of whatever is happening 92 00:04:22,420 --> 00:04:24,779 Speaker 1: in the background that you cannot control. But to the 93 00:04:24,790 --> 00:04:27,419 Speaker 1: second point, you mentioned, it sounds to me like management's 94 00:04:27,428 --> 00:04:30,989 Speaker 1: mistake because they couldn't foresee, am I right to 95 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 2: say that I think there is no perfect management that 96 00:04:33,290 --> 00:04:35,609 Speaker 2: can have foresight into so many things, right? I mean, 97 00:04:35,619 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 2: as much as we can plan one way and all 98 00:04:37,850 --> 00:04:40,209 Speaker 2: that look at COVID, it just took all of us, 99 00:04:40,809 --> 00:04:44,230 Speaker 2: right? And we also assume that because of COVID, there 100 00:04:44,238 --> 00:04:46,849 Speaker 2: will be a speed in digitalization. And so a lot 101 00:04:46,859 --> 00:04:49,410 Speaker 2: of companies end up hiring a lot of people. But 102 00:04:49,420 --> 00:04:51,269 Speaker 2: then realize that right now the market moves in this 103 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:55,209 Speaker 2: consolidation period whereby we have buy enough digital products, right? 104 00:04:55,220 --> 00:04:57,790 Speaker 2: I don't need any more right from a company perspective 105 00:04:57,799 --> 00:05:00,559 Speaker 2: and so that companies then will have to trim and 106 00:05:00,570 --> 00:05:01,260 Speaker 2: then move into new 107 00:05:01,269 --> 00:05:04,929 Speaker 1: areas. I do know that some of these companies went 108 00:05:04,940 --> 00:05:06,470 Speaker 1: on a hiring spree 109 00:05:07,209 --> 00:05:10,250 Speaker 1: and they were paying so much money, of course, and 110 00:05:10,260 --> 00:05:14,130 Speaker 1: then when competition hits and for example, generative A I 111 00:05:14,140 --> 00:05:16,279 Speaker 1: hits and then they realize, oh my God, OK. I 112 00:05:16,290 --> 00:05:18,578 Speaker 1: don't know whether we can last five years on this 113 00:05:18,589 --> 00:05:21,730 Speaker 1: head count, right? But let me also follow up on 114 00:05:21,738 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 1: the list, right? Have you ever been on like a list? 115 00:05:24,609 --> 00:05:27,350 Speaker 1: I have actually I have. So my second job, I 116 00:05:27,359 --> 00:05:30,209 Speaker 1: was laid off, this was during the.com era, but I 117 00:05:30,220 --> 00:05:32,079 Speaker 1: think it was quite easy to be on the list 118 00:05:32,089 --> 00:05:35,229 Speaker 1: back then because 75% of us were on the list. 119 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:37,159 Speaker 2: So just look 120 00:05:37,390 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: right. Yeah, basically everyone a stone and that guy will 121 00:05:41,609 --> 00:05:44,519 Speaker 1: be on the list. Ok. So it was very interesting 122 00:05:44,529 --> 00:05:46,719 Speaker 1: because I was reading this piece and Adrian, I sent 123 00:05:46,730 --> 00:05:50,219 Speaker 1: this to you right about reasons why people let go. 124 00:05:51,178 --> 00:05:54,849 Speaker 1: One lack of skills advancement. That means maybe your job 125 00:05:54,859 --> 00:05:55,899 Speaker 1: is redundant. 126 00:05:56,529 --> 00:06:00,149 Speaker 1: So you're obviously going to be on that list. Number two, 127 00:06:00,730 --> 00:06:06,349 Speaker 1: you are on a very high salary, but you are 128 00:06:06,359 --> 00:06:11,970 Speaker 1: an overseer, not a doer, I guess you don't add 129 00:06:11,980 --> 00:06:14,079 Speaker 1: to the bottom line. I don't know like you are 130 00:06:14,089 --> 00:06:17,079 Speaker 1: not part of the product, the person will debate this. 131 00:06:17,170 --> 00:06:17,589 Speaker 1: But yeah, 132 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,769 Speaker 1: you like visibility. That means your boss doesn't know who 133 00:06:21,779 --> 00:06:25,140 Speaker 1: you are. That could be one, this is from HBR, 134 00:06:25,149 --> 00:06:29,850 Speaker 1: by the way, the Harvard Business Review for performers. OK. 135 00:06:29,859 --> 00:06:34,059 Speaker 1: This is also interesting because people may think that they're performing. OK. 136 00:06:34,570 --> 00:06:36,980 Speaker 1: But when you are on that list, actually your boss 137 00:06:36,988 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: doesn't think you're that great a performer. So there's a 138 00:06:40,649 --> 00:06:42,700 Speaker 1: misalignment apparently, 139 00:06:43,488 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 1: which is also true. Right. And then the final one 140 00:06:46,769 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 1: is offshoring and automation. OK? So the worst of this 141 00:06:51,369 --> 00:06:54,940 Speaker 1: is obviously the skills and the offshoring and automation because 142 00:06:54,950 --> 00:06:58,169 Speaker 1: that's not me. But the others are kind of like 143 00:06:58,178 --> 00:06:58,828 Speaker 1: me 144 00:06:59,850 --> 00:07:02,109 Speaker 1: have a part to play. Yeah. Right. What do you 145 00:07:02,119 --> 00:07:05,890 Speaker 1: think about the criteria? Like do you just rank everybody 146 00:07:05,899 --> 00:07:08,690 Speaker 1: and then the bottom 10 out, it's 147 00:07:08,700 --> 00:07:12,269 Speaker 2: really not so straightforward, I think, especially for hr to 148 00:07:12,279 --> 00:07:15,589 Speaker 2: participate and know the least beforehand it is really challenging, 149 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:17,119 Speaker 2: especially I think a lot of hr they may not 150 00:07:17,130 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 2: have a lot of the connections with what's going on 151 00:07:20,170 --> 00:07:22,609 Speaker 2: the ground. Right. So they hear through their managers, but 152 00:07:22,619 --> 00:07:24,959 Speaker 2: putting that aside, besides the reasons that just now you mentioned, 153 00:07:24,970 --> 00:07:26,559 Speaker 2: I think there is also one reason that we don't 154 00:07:26,570 --> 00:07:27,429 Speaker 2: really talk about 155 00:07:27,869 --> 00:07:31,250 Speaker 2: it is that whether the staff are aligned to the 156 00:07:31,260 --> 00:07:34,510 Speaker 2: new vision or not. OK. Right. Because sometimes I just 157 00:07:34,519 --> 00:07:36,079 Speaker 2: want you mentioned about one of the reason of the 158 00:07:36,089 --> 00:07:38,529 Speaker 2: trimming is sometimes is because company wants to move into 159 00:07:38,540 --> 00:07:40,799 Speaker 2: new areas and there will be bound to be people 160 00:07:40,809 --> 00:07:42,450 Speaker 2: who are like, no, I don't want to go there. 161 00:07:42,459 --> 00:07:44,799 Speaker 2: I disagree and what not fair enough. You know, they 162 00:07:44,809 --> 00:07:47,179 Speaker 2: have their own perspective of not wanting to go into, 163 00:07:47,190 --> 00:07:50,109 Speaker 2: let's say, generative A I. Right. And, but the company 164 00:07:50,119 --> 00:07:52,649 Speaker 2: still has to move forward with that and sometimes the 165 00:07:52,660 --> 00:07:55,970 Speaker 2: tring happens because maybe there is really no alignment between 166 00:07:56,239 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 2: what the company wants to hit, where to hit to 167 00:07:59,170 --> 00:08:01,279 Speaker 2: right on the staff level. You probably don't want to 168 00:08:01,290 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 2: do it anymore. Yeah. 169 00:08:02,230 --> 00:08:05,119 Speaker 1: Do the staff tell you? Look, I don't want to 170 00:08:05,130 --> 00:08:06,250 Speaker 1: do this because I'm, 171 00:08:06,809 --> 00:08:10,630 Speaker 1: let's say I'm 50 years old or I'm 45. I'm 172 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,790 Speaker 1: not going to learn something new this fast this much. 173 00:08:13,799 --> 00:08:16,950 Speaker 1: I I am not interested in 16 nowadays anymore. You 174 00:08:16,959 --> 00:08:17,790 Speaker 1: can articulate 175 00:08:17,799 --> 00:08:20,339 Speaker 2: that. I think you can, but I think you have 176 00:08:20,350 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 2: to understand that the company is bigger than yourself. It's 177 00:08:22,929 --> 00:08:24,799 Speaker 2: not just about you, but it's the company as a 178 00:08:24,809 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 2: whole and you have your own personal choice, whether you 179 00:08:27,209 --> 00:08:29,510 Speaker 2: want to go with that direction or nobody is forcing 180 00:08:29,519 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 2: you to do so. 181 00:08:30,279 --> 00:08:31,940 Speaker 2: So you have a choice to do that, 182 00:08:32,299 --> 00:08:36,940 Speaker 1: right? So the seemingly unfit for the future vision or 183 00:08:36,950 --> 00:08:41,140 Speaker 1: direction could be the contributing factor to why in the 184 00:08:41,150 --> 00:08:44,380 Speaker 1: recent cases, they were mentioned about top performer getting the 185 00:08:44,390 --> 00:08:48,020 Speaker 1: X people who just got promoted, also gotten the letter. 186 00:08:48,030 --> 00:08:48,210 Speaker 1: But a 187 00:08:48,219 --> 00:08:50,549 Speaker 2: lot of times when it comes to retrenchment, there is 188 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,750 Speaker 2: this thing what they call the horseshoe retrenchment, right? Which 189 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:55,770 Speaker 2: means you train people at the bottom and trim people 190 00:08:55,780 --> 00:08:57,570 Speaker 2: at the top and then you leave your managers in 191 00:08:57,580 --> 00:08:59,260 Speaker 2: the middle because they are stuck, 192 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:02,570 Speaker 2: right. They have to do what their staff used to 193 00:09:02,580 --> 00:09:04,260 Speaker 2: do because right now they don't have the stuff anymore, 194 00:09:04,270 --> 00:09:05,909 Speaker 2: but yet they have to do what their bosses used 195 00:09:05,919 --> 00:09:08,059 Speaker 2: to do. Right. So in which we always tend to 196 00:09:08,070 --> 00:09:12,099 Speaker 2: hear this thing like horseshoe, like you trim the edge. Yeah. Right. 197 00:09:12,109 --> 00:09:14,130 Speaker 2: So it could not only just be a performance, but 198 00:09:14,140 --> 00:09:16,500 Speaker 2: sometimes it's maybe this manager, I don't need a director 199 00:09:16,510 --> 00:09:19,020 Speaker 2: to do this anymore. A manager can, can be stretched, right? 200 00:09:19,030 --> 00:09:20,909 Speaker 2: That's what a lot of the bosses like to do that. 201 00:09:20,919 --> 00:09:22,429 Speaker 2: I'm going to give you a stretch assign 202 00:09:22,510 --> 00:09:22,739 Speaker 2: and I go 203 00:09:24,619 --> 00:09:29,609 Speaker 1: stretch goal. If you think that the director's role is 204 00:09:29,619 --> 00:09:33,570 Speaker 1: not meaty enough and the manager can actually perform that role, 205 00:09:33,580 --> 00:09:36,450 Speaker 1: then yeah, I guess you would have to remove the director, 206 00:09:36,599 --> 00:09:38,650 Speaker 1: but there's also a lot of assumption, right? It sounds 207 00:09:38,659 --> 00:09:40,848 Speaker 1: very much sink or swim, just throw you in the 208 00:09:40,859 --> 00:09:42,949 Speaker 1: swimming pool and see whether you can adapt because there's 209 00:09:42,979 --> 00:09:46,189 Speaker 1: an assumption that the manager can step up to manage 210 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,949 Speaker 1: up and also manage at the same time. 211 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,340 Speaker 1: So the next thing that I like to discuss about 212 00:09:52,349 --> 00:09:55,859 Speaker 1: is this focal point on technology. So recently, all these 213 00:09:55,869 --> 00:09:58,580 Speaker 1: companies that have released all these news seems to be 214 00:09:58,590 --> 00:10:01,689 Speaker 1: coming from the tech side. Are there some unique factors 215 00:10:01,700 --> 00:10:06,049 Speaker 1: at play and given. So if someone were to get 216 00:10:06,059 --> 00:10:09,690 Speaker 1: a fantastic offer or starting to stop to any tech companies, 217 00:10:09,700 --> 00:10:13,179 Speaker 1: should they even start looking at surveillance guarantees in their 218 00:10:13,190 --> 00:10:13,929 Speaker 1: contract 219 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:16,479 Speaker 1: or what else should they be looking at? If they 220 00:10:16,489 --> 00:10:18,500 Speaker 1: were to look at joining a tech company, 221 00:10:19,469 --> 00:10:22,900 Speaker 2: I think the technology always changes. Right. It's very hard 222 00:10:22,909 --> 00:10:25,900 Speaker 2: to keep up and we always have to be prepared 223 00:10:25,909 --> 00:10:28,718 Speaker 2: that these changes will affect the way we do well, 224 00:10:28,729 --> 00:10:31,718 Speaker 2: or the kind of jobs that will be available out there. 225 00:10:32,130 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 2: So I think for people who wants to go into 226 00:10:33,890 --> 00:10:35,929 Speaker 2: this space, especially in the start up, since I come 227 00:10:35,940 --> 00:10:37,030 Speaker 2: from the start up, you had to know that in 228 00:10:37,039 --> 00:10:39,909 Speaker 2: start up is very volatile, right? 50% of start up 229 00:10:39,919 --> 00:10:42,640 Speaker 2: sometimes don't survive beyond 3 to 5 years. Right. Yeah. 230 00:10:42,650 --> 00:10:44,929 Speaker 2: So for anyone who wants to go into the start 231 00:10:44,940 --> 00:10:48,468 Speaker 2: up space, I think you really have to have your bullets, 232 00:10:48,479 --> 00:10:50,539 Speaker 2: you need to make sure that you have something to 233 00:10:50,549 --> 00:10:52,789 Speaker 2: fall back on financially, that's for sure. 234 00:10:53,150 --> 00:10:56,299 Speaker 2: And know that you have to be really adaptable. You 235 00:10:56,309 --> 00:10:58,909 Speaker 2: had to be flexible sometimes in start ups, not the 236 00:10:58,919 --> 00:11:01,859 Speaker 2: most ideal, but we may have to pivot from time 237 00:11:01,869 --> 00:11:04,650 Speaker 2: to time because we want to strike at the, the 238 00:11:04,659 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 2: best opportunity out there or the best trend out there. Yeah. 239 00:11:07,650 --> 00:11:09,609 Speaker 2: So that is something that you need to take note 240 00:11:09,619 --> 00:11:10,809 Speaker 2: of in terms of like 241 00:11:11,090 --> 00:11:14,070 Speaker 2: surveillance guarantees and what not. I think honestly there's no 242 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 2: job that can guarantee you anything right now, even like 243 00:11:16,090 --> 00:11:18,919 Speaker 2: it is a non starter or non tech job and 244 00:11:19,159 --> 00:11:21,559 Speaker 2: for start up itself, you really don't trying to survive 245 00:11:21,570 --> 00:11:23,468 Speaker 2: on investment. Why? I don't think I'll be able to 246 00:11:23,479 --> 00:11:27,940 Speaker 2: pay anyone. So, yeah, joining the tech space is something 247 00:11:27,950 --> 00:11:29,609 Speaker 2: that you have to really be very care 248 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,070 Speaker 1: about. What you're saying is there's no such thing, like 249 00:11:33,090 --> 00:11:36,229 Speaker 1: there's no such guarantee that you can build into your 250 00:11:36,239 --> 00:11:39,909 Speaker 1: contract to talk a little bit more about this tech thing, right? 251 00:11:40,210 --> 00:11:43,900 Speaker 1: I was watching this very interesting youtube video about this 252 00:11:43,909 --> 00:11:46,719 Speaker 1: guy who was charting the rise and fall of shopping 253 00:11:46,900 --> 00:11:49,010 Speaker 1: and he was talking about how tech moves and how 254 00:11:49,020 --> 00:11:52,590 Speaker 1: fast it moves, right? That's the interesting thing to me 255 00:11:52,599 --> 00:11:55,969 Speaker 1: because when they first did online shopping, people bought on 256 00:11:55,979 --> 00:12:00,770 Speaker 1: computers and then suddenly people moved to mobile. So they 257 00:12:00,780 --> 00:12:05,229 Speaker 1: hired this bunch of fellows who were writing software or 258 00:12:05,239 --> 00:12:07,789 Speaker 1: coding or whatever for computers, 259 00:12:08,099 --> 00:12:11,169 Speaker 1: for websites. And then now they needed to look for 260 00:12:11,179 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: app guys. So one way, I guess the SG enable 261 00:12:15,690 --> 00:12:18,830 Speaker 1: way would be to try to get the guys who 262 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,130 Speaker 1: were doing web, to learn how to do that. But 263 00:12:22,140 --> 00:12:25,010 Speaker 1: in a situation like this is a fast moving game, right? 264 00:12:25,500 --> 00:12:27,859 Speaker 1: The easiest would be just fire this whole lot and 265 00:12:27,869 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: hire this new lot. Do you think this is going 266 00:12:30,289 --> 00:12:32,699 Speaker 1: to be the script for the future? 267 00:12:32,710 --> 00:12:35,679 Speaker 2: This is very tricky because nobody likes to be laid 268 00:12:35,690 --> 00:12:38,039 Speaker 2: off quite immediately and not even given a second shot 269 00:12:38,049 --> 00:12:43,079 Speaker 2: to say, can I transfer or reskill and Right. Correct. Again, 270 00:12:43,090 --> 00:12:45,439 Speaker 2: I think the company is bigger than any one of us. 271 00:12:45,450 --> 00:12:47,380 Speaker 2: And there's nothing in a way, nothing wrong for the 272 00:12:47,390 --> 00:12:48,319 Speaker 2: company to think like that. 273 00:12:48,630 --> 00:12:50,799 Speaker 2: For that example, I have a very classic one that 274 00:12:50,809 --> 00:12:53,099 Speaker 2: I read of. The book is by Patty mccord. She 275 00:12:53,109 --> 00:12:55,780 Speaker 2: used to be the Cro of Netflix. So during the 276 00:12:55,789 --> 00:12:58,530 Speaker 2: time when Netflix started, they were just renting out DVD S, right? 277 00:12:58,619 --> 00:13:01,359 Speaker 2: But they started to see the trend of internet and 278 00:13:01,369 --> 00:13:03,349 Speaker 2: people are not buying DVD players anymore. 279 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,530 Speaker 2: So they were given an opportunity back then is OK, 280 00:13:06,539 --> 00:13:09,849 Speaker 2: we want to move into streaming, right? So they also 281 00:13:09,859 --> 00:13:11,439 Speaker 2: had the same thing. They also hire a bunch of 282 00:13:11,450 --> 00:13:14,369 Speaker 2: database analysts who are just making sure keeping track of 283 00:13:14,380 --> 00:13:19,809 Speaker 2: the DVD movement on Google shit on Excel them, but 284 00:13:19,820 --> 00:13:22,750 Speaker 2: they're doing a brilliant job, smart engineers as well, data engineers. 285 00:13:22,760 --> 00:13:23,580 Speaker 2: So one day 286 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:25,599 Speaker 2: she went into the room, she was like, yeah, the 287 00:13:25,609 --> 00:13:28,380 Speaker 2: company is going, we are going to do streaming and 288 00:13:28,390 --> 00:13:31,419 Speaker 2: what not. And then this bunch of engineers were like 289 00:13:31,429 --> 00:13:35,500 Speaker 2: hardcore lawyer, Netflix supporter. They were like, yeah, sure, Patty just, 290 00:13:35,510 --> 00:13:38,239 Speaker 2: just give us six months, right? Just give us time, right? 291 00:13:38,250 --> 00:13:39,659 Speaker 2: You'll do what you need to do. We're going to 292 00:13:39,669 --> 00:13:42,478 Speaker 2: learn the new things and then we are going to 293 00:13:42,489 --> 00:13:45,460 Speaker 2: make that happen. And then Paddy said, if there's anyone 294 00:13:45,469 --> 00:13:47,919 Speaker 2: on earth who can do it, I'm sure it's you guys, 295 00:13:47,929 --> 00:13:49,339 Speaker 2: but not within six months. 296 00:13:50,059 --> 00:13:53,619 Speaker 2: Oh, so she laid them off, of course, with good packaged. 297 00:13:54,049 --> 00:13:55,739 Speaker 2: And then she hired a whole new bunch of network 298 00:13:55,750 --> 00:13:58,189 Speaker 2: engineers and developers and that's where you see Netflix is 299 00:13:58,200 --> 00:13:58,619 Speaker 2: right now. 300 00:13:58,750 --> 00:14:00,979 Speaker 1: That's such an interesting story. And 301 00:14:00,989 --> 00:14:03,500 Speaker 2: the thing is very interesting. She also mentioned it's a 302 00:14:03,510 --> 00:14:06,309 Speaker 2: very tough choice. But if you really hire people who 303 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,530 Speaker 2: really buys into the vision of company, they can understand 304 00:14:08,539 --> 00:14:10,819 Speaker 2: where the company is going and sometimes this is no 305 00:14:10,919 --> 00:14:14,070 Speaker 2: hard feeling. So it's not personal, it's just a business decision, 306 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:16,140 Speaker 2: right to sidetrack. So what happened to this engine 307 00:14:16,455 --> 00:14:19,245 Speaker 2: who got laid off? Right. They end up creating a 308 00:14:19,416 --> 00:14:23,065 Speaker 2: database system for textbooks. So they use the skills that 309 00:14:23,075 --> 00:14:24,656 Speaker 2: they learn in Netflix and they went over and did 310 00:14:24,666 --> 00:14:25,945 Speaker 2: one for textbooks. 311 00:14:25,955 --> 00:14:30,075 Speaker 1: So happy ending after some skills are just not possible 312 00:14:30,085 --> 00:14:33,366 Speaker 1: to learn. It's really easy for somebody to say Adrian, 313 00:14:33,375 --> 00:14:37,445 Speaker 1: you can just upskill, go and learn how to do app. No, 314 00:14:37,455 --> 00:14:38,255 Speaker 1: I don't think that 315 00:14:38,461 --> 00:14:39,541 Speaker 1: so straightforward, right? 316 00:14:39,552 --> 00:14:41,242 Speaker 2: I mean, it depends, of course, you may show the 317 00:14:41,252 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 2: attitude that you want to upscale, definitely for sure. But 318 00:14:44,091 --> 00:14:46,340 Speaker 2: you know, a business have to really function. There's probably 319 00:14:46,351 --> 00:14:49,012 Speaker 2: like still 500 or 7000 people that you need to 320 00:14:49,021 --> 00:14:50,971 Speaker 2: make sure that they have been able to put food 321 00:14:50,981 --> 00:14:52,921 Speaker 2: on the table, right? They can just probably wait for 322 00:14:52,932 --> 00:14:55,411 Speaker 2: you to learn the skill and what not as much 323 00:14:55,421 --> 00:14:57,642 Speaker 2: as possible as in hr we try to give everyone 324 00:14:57,651 --> 00:14:59,552 Speaker 2: the chance to say, OK, this is where we are moving. 325 00:14:59,562 --> 00:15:00,552 Speaker 2: Do you want to try? 326 00:15:00,919 --> 00:15:03,359 Speaker 2: But sometimes it's really very hard decisions that we have 327 00:15:03,369 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 2: to make. I 328 00:15:03,849 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: think it also depends on the base that the individual 329 00:15:06,330 --> 00:15:10,219 Speaker 1: start from. Like when DBS, if I'm not wrong retrenched, 330 00:15:10,229 --> 00:15:12,900 Speaker 1: tell us some of them were also earmarked to be 331 00:15:12,909 --> 00:15:16,429 Speaker 1: transitioned into digital marketing. If you think about it, it 332 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,809 Speaker 1: is really a very different skill set, completely different skill set. 333 00:15:19,820 --> 00:15:22,830 Speaker 1: It can be so challenging and most of them would 334 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:24,020 Speaker 1: be like, why don't I just look for 335 00:15:24,125 --> 00:15:27,784 Speaker 1: another customer service job because I can just continue to 336 00:15:27,794 --> 00:15:33,094 Speaker 1: adopt the skill set. But the co nature of this practicality, 337 00:15:33,205 --> 00:15:36,585 Speaker 1: it does make sense. But also this co nature has 338 00:15:36,594 --> 00:15:41,304 Speaker 1: also went into how many companies conducted their layoff as 339 00:15:41,315 --> 00:15:43,075 Speaker 1: we've seen in the news. So we always joke that 340 00:15:43,085 --> 00:15:46,465 Speaker 1: if your past suddenly doesn't work, your email suddenly doesn't work, 341 00:15:46,474 --> 00:15:47,265 Speaker 1: you've been fired. 342 00:15:47,580 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: But it's really a tough way to find that you 343 00:15:49,849 --> 00:15:51,669 Speaker 1: are on the list you show up, then they tell 344 00:15:51,679 --> 00:15:54,359 Speaker 1: you you don't have a job and it sounds really cruel. 345 00:15:54,419 --> 00:15:58,510 Speaker 1: Have you personally been in such a difficult retrenchment situation? 346 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,130 Speaker 1: And importantly, why does stuff continue to happen like this? 347 00:16:01,140 --> 00:16:03,869 Speaker 1: Because in the newspaper, we all know that it doesn't 348 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:05,729 Speaker 1: seem to be the right way, but it seems to 349 00:16:05,739 --> 00:16:07,570 Speaker 1: be the way to do. Right. 350 00:16:07,580 --> 00:16:10,349 Speaker 2: I was laid off before as well. So it wasn't 351 00:16:10,359 --> 00:16:13,130 Speaker 2: a good experience. Definitely. And I think this due to 352 00:16:13,140 --> 00:16:15,669 Speaker 2: financial reasons, of course, being the one retrench, you will 353 00:16:15,679 --> 00:16:16,090 Speaker 2: be like, 354 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 2: I don't care, you know, it's like you blame the 355 00:16:20,210 --> 00:16:23,229 Speaker 2: management for not maybe looking after the money. Well, etc, 356 00:16:23,989 --> 00:16:26,460 Speaker 2: but then I wouldn't say that it's the way. But 357 00:16:26,469 --> 00:16:28,969 Speaker 2: we have to understand from this perspective is that the 358 00:16:28,979 --> 00:16:32,570 Speaker 2: world changes so fast. Right? And as companies, their primary 359 00:16:32,580 --> 00:16:35,659 Speaker 2: aim is to make money, there's nothing wrong with making money, right? 360 00:16:35,669 --> 00:16:37,020 Speaker 2: The company is to make money 361 00:16:37,330 --> 00:16:40,909 Speaker 2: and they have to make sure that they are sustainable 362 00:16:40,919 --> 00:16:43,409 Speaker 2: and they still continue to thrive and for some companies 363 00:16:43,419 --> 00:16:45,940 Speaker 2: to survive. Yeah. Right. This may be hard for a 364 00:16:45,950 --> 00:16:47,229 Speaker 2: lot of listeners out there, but 365 00:16:47,599 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 2: I would say that don't take retrenchment as something that 366 00:16:49,770 --> 00:16:51,849 Speaker 2: is out of the world is probably just something that 367 00:16:51,859 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 2: is going to happen anywhere. But of course, there's a 368 00:16:54,890 --> 00:16:57,830 Speaker 2: separate debate about how we want to do this responsibly. Right? 369 00:16:58,059 --> 00:16:59,469 Speaker 2: I think, I think that's for sure. 370 00:16:59,479 --> 00:17:03,010 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the basic thing is that you shouldn't 371 00:17:03,020 --> 00:17:05,409 Speaker 1: be so cruel, you shouldn't shut people off and then 372 00:17:05,420 --> 00:17:07,410 Speaker 1: suddenly they show up at work and they, they lost 373 00:17:07,420 --> 00:17:08,468 Speaker 2: access to everything. 374 00:17:08,510 --> 00:17:09,750 Speaker 1: I mean, I think 375 00:17:09,900 --> 00:17:13,930 Speaker 1: that's a low blow, right. Just treat somebody as you 376 00:17:13,939 --> 00:17:16,699 Speaker 1: would like to be treated, isn't it? Like, how would 377 00:17:16,709 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 1: you like to be let go? Obviously you want to 378 00:17:19,130 --> 00:17:22,688 Speaker 1: be told beforehand, explain, etcetera. I don't think employees are 379 00:17:22,699 --> 00:17:26,540 Speaker 1: expecting a divorce party, but at the very least don't 380 00:17:26,550 --> 00:17:29,829 Speaker 1: contrast too much from the courtship process. I 381 00:17:30,130 --> 00:17:33,319 Speaker 2: always tell my team it's that we spend so much 382 00:17:33,329 --> 00:17:35,859 Speaker 2: effort in trying to bring great talents in. Right? We 383 00:17:35,869 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 2: cuddle them, we make sure that they are on board 384 00:17:37,770 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 2: then 385 00:17:38,219 --> 00:17:40,708 Speaker 2: when we don't really need them anymore for whatever reasons, 386 00:17:40,719 --> 00:17:43,349 Speaker 2: whether is it like, happy divorce or not, then we 387 00:17:43,359 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 2: just treat them like they're criminals or they are no 388 00:17:45,930 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 2: longer needed. I don't agree that way. So, 389 00:17:48,630 --> 00:17:52,310 Speaker 2: I think there's a responsible way in communicating and executing retrenchment. 390 00:17:52,319 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 2: But I think for everyone else to think that retrenchments 391 00:17:55,369 --> 00:17:57,719 Speaker 2: will never happen. I think 392 00:17:57,729 --> 00:18:01,339 Speaker 1: that will somehow be very, you know, like, lovely goodbye. 393 00:18:01,349 --> 00:18:02,409 Speaker 1: No such thing. Yeah. I mean, 394 00:18:02,420 --> 00:18:06,089 Speaker 2: resizing really will happen. Right. And sometimes it's really the 395 00:18:06,099 --> 00:18:08,449 Speaker 2: cold hard reasons. Right. Business needs to survive. 396 00:18:08,459 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 1: Just curious. Have you ever had to let people go? Yeah, 397 00:18:12,819 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 2: I did. But it's probably not so much of just 398 00:18:16,530 --> 00:18:20,839 Speaker 2: financial reasons. It's a lot more complex than that. I see. Yeah. Yeah. 399 00:18:20,849 --> 00:18:23,739 Speaker 2: It's always hard. You are dealing with a person, right. 400 00:18:23,750 --> 00:18:27,589 Speaker 2: And a job to someone means so much it means reputation, 401 00:18:27,599 --> 00:18:32,030 Speaker 2: it means their ego, their identity and their livelihood, their family, 402 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,389 Speaker 2: their commitment. So, when they don't have a job. People 403 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,849 Speaker 2: just go to the all or nothing route. Like, oh, 404 00:18:36,859 --> 00:18:38,750 Speaker 2: I lost my job so I'm a failure. I can't 405 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:40,829 Speaker 2: support my family anymore and what not. So, it's really 406 00:18:40,839 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 2: hard 407 00:18:41,670 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 2: and the thing is no matter what good reason, sometimes 408 00:18:44,010 --> 00:18:46,770 Speaker 2: management of hr people have in the years of that 409 00:18:46,780 --> 00:18:49,239 Speaker 2: the other party is. All these are crap. Right. I 410 00:18:49,250 --> 00:18:50,930 Speaker 2: don't believe it. Yeah. So, 411 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,020 Speaker 2: but what we advocate, at least for me, what I 412 00:18:54,030 --> 00:18:56,849 Speaker 2: advocate to do is it shouldn't be like the person 413 00:18:56,859 --> 00:18:58,958 Speaker 2: who is, let's say non-performing shouldn't be caught by surprise. 414 00:18:58,969 --> 00:19:03,958 Speaker 2: So that is why we advocate for regular feedback sessions. Right? Yeah, 415 00:19:03,969 --> 00:19:05,670 Speaker 2: I think that episode of podcast, I think you'll talk 416 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,390 Speaker 2: about 360 feedback. And I think on the speaker said 417 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:10,859 Speaker 2: that we should do regular feedback. So we do that 418 00:19:10,910 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 2: if you have told this person two times that he 419 00:19:13,010 --> 00:19:14,709 Speaker 2: or she's not performing. So by the time you need 420 00:19:14,719 --> 00:19:16,010 Speaker 2: to tell her that he or she has to go, 421 00:19:16,020 --> 00:19:18,260 Speaker 2: it doesn't come as surprise. Right. Yes. 422 00:19:18,479 --> 00:19:20,979 Speaker 1: In the case of massive layoff, I guess regular town 423 00:19:21,064 --> 00:19:24,093 Speaker 1: call to let people know that we are in difficult 424 00:19:24,104 --> 00:19:26,685 Speaker 1: waters and this is what we have to do. We 425 00:19:26,694 --> 00:19:30,084 Speaker 1: have to be tighter with the leader. Otherwise three months later, 426 00:19:30,094 --> 00:19:31,083 Speaker 1: something may happen. 427 00:19:31,275 --> 00:19:33,454 Speaker 2: I think for management when it comes to sharing this 428 00:19:33,854 --> 00:19:36,155 Speaker 2: information in town hall, I think they need to be 429 00:19:36,165 --> 00:19:38,915 Speaker 2: transparent about it. Yes, of course. You can't really flash 430 00:19:38,925 --> 00:19:42,035 Speaker 2: all your, you know, account and what not, right. But 431 00:19:42,135 --> 00:19:45,755 Speaker 2: if you are really in deep waters, say it because 432 00:19:45,765 --> 00:19:47,905 Speaker 2: it's probably in those moments, you probably can see who 433 00:19:47,915 --> 00:19:49,805 Speaker 2: are the ones going to stick with you. Right? And 434 00:19:49,814 --> 00:19:50,685 Speaker 2: then who are the ones like? 435 00:19:51,229 --> 00:19:54,609 Speaker 2: All right, thanks for the boss, but I'm going to 436 00:19:54,619 --> 00:19:55,250 Speaker 2: see you. 437 00:19:55,260 --> 00:19:59,290 Speaker 1: Thanks. Bye. Yeah. Ok. We often focus on the emotional 438 00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:01,829 Speaker 1: toll of the people who are laid off. But there's 439 00:20:01,839 --> 00:20:05,010 Speaker 1: this survivor, right? So all these guys are stuck behind. 440 00:20:05,020 --> 00:20:08,780 Speaker 1: Morale is low when Lazada fired, right? Some people had 441 00:20:08,790 --> 00:20:12,640 Speaker 1: posted to say that yeah, morale is very low. People 442 00:20:12,650 --> 00:20:13,569 Speaker 1: are always thinking, 443 00:20:13,844 --> 00:20:18,734 Speaker 1: am I next? And that kind of will affect work, right? 444 00:20:18,744 --> 00:20:22,364 Speaker 1: And productivity, do you have you had that experience before? 445 00:20:22,584 --> 00:20:25,765 Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. And when I was laid off, I have 446 00:20:25,775 --> 00:20:27,675 Speaker 2: a friend who was laid off with me and I 447 00:20:27,685 --> 00:20:29,405 Speaker 2: was very upset about it and he pat on my 448 00:20:29,415 --> 00:20:30,094 Speaker 2: shoulder and say 449 00:20:30,609 --> 00:20:32,530 Speaker 2: maybe we should be glad that we left. At least 450 00:20:32,540 --> 00:20:34,250 Speaker 2: we're not in the sinking ship. You know, we are 451 00:20:34,260 --> 00:20:35,978 Speaker 2: not all who stay on in the sinking ship, right? 452 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:38,790 Speaker 2: So I can understand for those who still remains in 453 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,149 Speaker 2: those companies, right, who just gone through layoff. And people 454 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,649 Speaker 2: there are feeling like very on the edge. They do 455 00:20:44,660 --> 00:20:47,790 Speaker 2: not know what's gonna happen, what not. So I think 456 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,910 Speaker 2: for companies or for hr professionals out there as much 457 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 2: as you are taking care of those who are leaving. 458 00:20:52,410 --> 00:20:54,770 Speaker 2: You also must take care of those who are staying. Yeah. Right. 459 00:20:54,780 --> 00:20:56,869 Speaker 2: Because it's a report effect because you never know these 460 00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:59,390 Speaker 2: people will also either. They just mentally quit on you. 461 00:20:59,869 --> 00:21:02,819 Speaker 2: Yes. Right. The laptop is on but they're probably scrolling 462 00:21:02,829 --> 00:21:05,260 Speaker 2: linkedin jobs on their phone and what not. So, a 463 00:21:05,270 --> 00:21:07,099 Speaker 2: lot of h, I just think that once I've done 464 00:21:07,109 --> 00:21:09,109 Speaker 2: the retrenchment, once I let people go, I pay all 465 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,359 Speaker 2: the package, my job is done. No, the repair of 466 00:21:12,369 --> 00:21:16,619 Speaker 2: trust is the next thing you need to really focus on, right? 467 00:21:16,630 --> 00:21:18,669 Speaker 2: To build the connection with the rice is like guys, 468 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 2: I know it's tough time. 469 00:21:19,869 --> 00:21:22,179 Speaker 2: We're going to move this together and we have all 470 00:21:22,250 --> 00:21:24,930 Speaker 2: the answers so that, that repel trust, the sharing of 471 00:21:24,939 --> 00:21:28,510 Speaker 2: vulnerability and transparency I think is really needed. I think 472 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,569 Speaker 2: a lot of people forget that just all I retrench. 473 00:21:30,579 --> 00:21:31,770 Speaker 2: That's it. My job is done. 474 00:21:32,050 --> 00:21:35,458 Speaker 1: Yeah. And also it's a reputational risk for companies who 475 00:21:35,469 --> 00:21:39,959 Speaker 1: do bad retrenchments, right? If I'm talented, I won't apply 476 00:21:39,969 --> 00:21:42,369 Speaker 1: to you because you've got this bad rep now for 477 00:21:42,380 --> 00:21:44,939 Speaker 1: treating people badly, right? And the bad rep would live 478 00:21:44,949 --> 00:21:45,890 Speaker 1: for on the internet. 479 00:21:46,469 --> 00:21:49,060 Speaker 1: OK. A I is coming for jobs next. We are 480 00:21:49,069 --> 00:21:51,369 Speaker 1: already seeing this at Google. What used to be done 481 00:21:51,380 --> 00:21:53,729 Speaker 1: by engineers cannot be done by A I, I'm a 482 00:21:53,739 --> 00:21:56,530 Speaker 1: very lousy forecaster, but I think it's quite safe to 483 00:21:56,540 --> 00:21:59,250 Speaker 1: wager that A I is coming for many people's job. 484 00:21:59,500 --> 00:22:01,810 Speaker 1: What would you give as advice to people 485 00:22:01,905 --> 00:22:06,254 Speaker 1: navigating this transition if there's a 25 year old JVI 486 00:22:06,834 --> 00:22:10,804 Speaker 1: today looking out at joining the workforce, especially in the 487 00:22:10,814 --> 00:22:14,074 Speaker 1: tech space, what advice would you have for this person? 488 00:22:14,094 --> 00:22:17,284 Speaker 1: But it's also the 45 year old 489 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:22,170 Speaker 1: engineer who's been like tip top at his job and 490 00:22:22,180 --> 00:22:23,869 Speaker 1: now A I is going to do that job. You're 491 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:26,660 Speaker 1: going to be living till 18. So that's a bit scary, 492 00:22:26,670 --> 00:22:30,030 Speaker 2: right? I understand the fear towards A I, we always 493 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,989 Speaker 2: talk about how A I will take away jobs and not, not, 494 00:22:33,319 --> 00:22:33,968 Speaker 2: but there's a context 495 00:22:34,140 --> 00:22:37,959 Speaker 2: said with regards to our fear about this new industrial revolution, right? 496 00:22:38,319 --> 00:22:40,488 Speaker 2: I think the fear has gone a little bit too 497 00:22:40,500 --> 00:22:43,069 Speaker 2: out of proportion. Yeah. OK. So I mean if we 498 00:22:43,079 --> 00:22:47,000 Speaker 2: look at history with each industrial revolution, the introduction of machines, 499 00:22:47,010 --> 00:22:51,930 Speaker 2: steam engines or even internet, do we really lose jobs? No, 500 00:22:51,939 --> 00:22:54,149 Speaker 2: we lost jobs, right? Maybe. But the thing is we 501 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:56,739 Speaker 2: lost jobs that are more mundane and routine. But in 502 00:22:56,750 --> 00:23:01,089 Speaker 2: that process, we also created high value jobs which improves 503 00:23:01,099 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 2: our own quality of life and work, right? 504 00:23:04,079 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 2: So I would say that with this industrial revolution, of course, 505 00:23:06,930 --> 00:23:08,609 Speaker 2: right now, we're still trying to grapple how this generally 506 00:23:08,619 --> 00:23:10,859 Speaker 2: if I would change things, but I would say that 507 00:23:10,869 --> 00:23:12,219 Speaker 2: we are the one who created 508 00:23:12,650 --> 00:23:15,389 Speaker 2: this thing, right? And so there will be new jobs 509 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,790 Speaker 2: that will come out of it. Ok. Right. So the 510 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:22,169 Speaker 2: way to say fireproof or to navigate this is sit 511 00:23:22,180 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 2: comfortably with this new trend. Yes, you can choose to 512 00:23:24,689 --> 00:23:27,010 Speaker 2: shut your eyes and your ears and lament how this 513 00:23:27,020 --> 00:23:28,989 Speaker 2: thing is unfair, gonna take away jobs, but it's not 514 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,189 Speaker 2: going to solve the problem. Right. The only way to 515 00:23:31,199 --> 00:23:33,280 Speaker 2: address this is to know how this A I works. 516 00:23:33,290 --> 00:23:35,609 Speaker 2: So go and learn and use it, right? Even for 517 00:23:35,619 --> 00:23:37,739 Speaker 2: my team, we actually use A I chat GP 518 00:23:37,925 --> 00:23:41,064 Speaker 2: for our handbook because it just makes research work a 519 00:23:41,074 --> 00:23:43,535 Speaker 2: lot easier. Of course, we can fine tune from things 520 00:23:43,545 --> 00:23:45,645 Speaker 2: like that. So my stand is you do not have 521 00:23:45,655 --> 00:23:48,204 Speaker 2: to love or advocate for generative A I, that's fine 522 00:23:48,214 --> 00:23:50,925 Speaker 2: but able to sit comfortably with it and know that 523 00:23:50,935 --> 00:23:53,145 Speaker 2: it is going to happen anyway, whether you like it 524 00:23:53,155 --> 00:23:56,935 Speaker 2: or not, that's important. And a really A I and 525 00:23:56,944 --> 00:23:59,545 Speaker 2: all this industrial revolution, whether is it the fifth wave 526 00:23:59,555 --> 00:24:01,135 Speaker 2: or sixth wave down the road? Right? There are just 527 00:24:01,145 --> 00:24:02,915 Speaker 2: going to be jobs that cannot be taken away. 528 00:24:03,170 --> 00:24:05,030 Speaker 2: Look, I do not want my doctor to be A 529 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,170 Speaker 2: I to operate on me for sure. I don't want 530 00:24:07,180 --> 00:24:08,270 Speaker 2: to speak to a counselor. 531 00:24:09,859 --> 00:24:10,300 Speaker 1: I don't 532 00:24:10,310 --> 00:24:12,979 Speaker 2: know, like I don't want a counselor or a psychiatrist 533 00:24:12,989 --> 00:24:15,079 Speaker 2: that a I know there will be a lot of 534 00:24:15,089 --> 00:24:17,140 Speaker 2: jobs still will be made and there will be new 535 00:24:17,150 --> 00:24:20,410 Speaker 2: jobs created. But if you are talking about really how 536 00:24:20,420 --> 00:24:20,550 Speaker 2: can 537 00:24:20,630 --> 00:24:23,310 Speaker 2: I also cope with this change? I think for everyone 538 00:24:23,319 --> 00:24:26,530 Speaker 2: out there is really learning about also very human oriented skills, 539 00:24:26,540 --> 00:24:29,949 Speaker 2: like communication, team management. Because these are things that will 540 00:24:29,959 --> 00:24:33,589 Speaker 2: never be automation can never I totally replace. 541 00:24:33,599 --> 00:24:35,550 Speaker 1: So you may not like the wave but you got 542 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,339 Speaker 1: to write this. I guess what you're saying is it'll 543 00:24:37,349 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: come 544 00:24:38,439 --> 00:24:42,430 Speaker 1: but try your best to learn more about it because 545 00:24:42,439 --> 00:24:45,649 Speaker 2: we fear what we do not know. Right. So understand it, 546 00:24:46,180 --> 00:24:48,489 Speaker 2: then you can decide whether you really like it or not. 547 00:24:48,500 --> 00:24:50,729 Speaker 1: I mean, come on, if we could learn 548 00:24:51,010 --> 00:24:56,329 Speaker 1: how to use handphones and fancy computers, laptops, etcetera. Every 549 00:24:56,339 --> 00:24:59,438 Speaker 1: technical thing that we've learned, I'm sure we'll be able 550 00:24:59,449 --> 00:25:02,869 Speaker 1: to figure it out. Right? Yeah. And if you can't 551 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:04,430 Speaker 1: figure it out, you can still make coffee. 552 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 2: That's my ego. I want to be a barista. 553 00:25:10,984 --> 00:25:14,055 Speaker 1: What, what, what did you think? Ok. So we started 554 00:25:14,064 --> 00:25:17,435 Speaker 1: out talking about layoff, ended up in some existential black 555 00:25:17,444 --> 00:25:20,764 Speaker 1: hole about robots stealing our jobs and also potentially our 556 00:25:20,775 --> 00:25:23,234 Speaker 1: coffee mugs. But I think here's the thing as big 557 00:25:23,244 --> 00:25:26,214 Speaker 1: as it may sound. There's also some glimmer of hope 558 00:25:26,454 --> 00:25:29,295 Speaker 1: because we also thought about doing things like upskilling, staying 559 00:25:29,305 --> 00:25:33,305 Speaker 1: adaptable and the standard government thing that has been said, 560 00:25:33,314 --> 00:25:36,984 Speaker 1: embrace lifelong learning, the mantras for modern workers, the armor 561 00:25:36,994 --> 00:25:38,775 Speaker 1: against robot uprising. 562 00:25:39,239 --> 00:25:42,250 Speaker 1: And I really like the story that you mentioned about Netflix, 563 00:25:42,260 --> 00:25:45,510 Speaker 1: the Happy ending to the team that was also laid off. 564 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,500 Speaker 1: So yeah, let's look at things from a different angle 565 00:25:48,510 --> 00:25:51,010 Speaker 1: and also support each other through this bumpy right in 566 00:25:51,020 --> 00:25:55,010 Speaker 1: this ever evolving workplace because who knows, maybe we can 567 00:25:55,020 --> 00:25:57,869 Speaker 1: make this crazy thing called work. Not suck so much. 568 00:25:58,500 --> 00:26:00,719 Speaker 1: I think that's going too far now. Adrian, I think 569 00:26:00,729 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: what will always suck to some point? Thank you J 570 00:26:03,839 --> 00:26:07,270 Speaker 1: for making this sound so interesting to me, 571 00:26:07,589 --> 00:26:10,699 Speaker 1: I've never taken for granted the fact that I have 572 00:26:10,709 --> 00:26:13,250 Speaker 1: a job. So every day is a gift in my 573 00:26:13,260 --> 00:26:16,750 Speaker 1: view because I mean, podcasts might be swept away tomorrow, 574 00:26:16,859 --> 00:26:20,699 Speaker 1: replaced by something completely different, some new thing or other. 575 00:26:20,939 --> 00:26:24,829 Speaker 1: But like you, I believe that there are some skills 576 00:26:24,839 --> 00:26:27,649 Speaker 1: that I have gained in the last 20 years of 577 00:26:27,660 --> 00:26:30,790 Speaker 1: working that will stand the test of time. 578 00:26:31,109 --> 00:26:35,380 Speaker 1: You know, the way I write, for example, my communication skills, 579 00:26:35,390 --> 00:26:39,079 Speaker 1: dealing with people, all those things I hope will never 580 00:26:39,089 --> 00:26:43,050 Speaker 1: be replaced if anyone who is listening and you're worried 581 00:26:43,060 --> 00:26:46,979 Speaker 1: about being let go. Joel's point that it's not the 582 00:26:46,989 --> 00:26:47,939 Speaker 1: end of the world. 583 00:26:49,229 --> 00:26:52,650 Speaker 1: So there's this saying, right? As long as there is life, 584 00:26:52,979 --> 00:26:56,390 Speaker 1: there is hope so. I hope that you guys had 585 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 1: an interesting time listening to our guest today. As always, 586 00:26:59,410 --> 00:27:02,010 Speaker 1: thank you for listening. Thank you to my podcast team 587 00:27:02,180 --> 00:27:04,250 Speaker 1: until we meet again next week.