1 00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:02,259 Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast. 2 00:00:05,099 --> 00:00:08,209 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone. It's Stephen again and welcome back to another 3 00:00:08,220 --> 00:00:11,270 Speaker 1: episode of Heart of the Matter. Now, today's topic is 4 00:00:11,279 --> 00:00:15,649 Speaker 1: what has been described as an intractable problem, the transportation 5 00:00:15,659 --> 00:00:19,180 Speaker 1: of migrant workers to and from their works sites for 6 00:00:19,190 --> 00:00:22,329 Speaker 1: those unfamiliar. Let me get you up to speed on Wednesday. 7 00:00:22,340 --> 00:00:25,700 Speaker 1: 2nd August, several government agencies put out a joint statement 8 00:00:25,709 --> 00:00:28,819 Speaker 1: to say that a ban on ferrying workers on lorries 9 00:00:28,829 --> 00:00:30,450 Speaker 1: was not ideal. 10 00:00:30,850 --> 00:00:33,709 Speaker 1: Citing business realities has said that if companies are not 11 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,139 Speaker 1: able to operate their businesses, there will be and I quote, 12 00:00:37,209 --> 00:00:40,830 Speaker 1: knock on effects on society which includes delayed projects and 13 00:00:40,840 --> 00:00:44,500 Speaker 1: higher costs borne by consumers. This was in response to 14 00:00:44,509 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: renewed calls among worker rights groups to ban the practice 15 00:00:48,049 --> 00:00:51,939 Speaker 1: petitions for a ban included 100 groups and individuals. Over 16 00:00:51,950 --> 00:00:52,279 Speaker 1: 20 17 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,549 Speaker 1: business groups also urged the government to be careful of 18 00:00:55,560 --> 00:01:00,810 Speaker 1: regulatory changes saying there are real practical and operational complexities. 19 00:01:00,889 --> 00:01:03,849 Speaker 1: The issue is not new mps have raised it several 20 00:01:03,860 --> 00:01:07,250 Speaker 1: times over the last 14 years. At the heart of 21 00:01:07,260 --> 00:01:10,029 Speaker 1: the matter is the issue of competing goals. On the 22 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:12,980 Speaker 1: one hand, we want to protect the migrant community who 23 00:01:12,989 --> 00:01:13,790 Speaker 1: build our roads, 24 00:01:13,870 --> 00:01:17,250 Speaker 1: schools or hospitals. On the other hand, is the question 25 00:01:17,260 --> 00:01:19,180 Speaker 1: of how to do it in a way that is 26 00:01:19,190 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: sustainable from a business point of view. So, is there 27 00:01:22,730 --> 00:01:24,869 Speaker 1: a common ground today, we're going to try to cut 28 00:01:24,879 --> 00:01:27,120 Speaker 1: through the noise and unpack some of the key factors 29 00:01:27,129 --> 00:01:31,169 Speaker 1: around this issue. What are the complexities? Can they be 30 00:01:31,180 --> 00:01:34,209 Speaker 1: innovatively solved? Who should be the one to do it? 31 00:01:34,239 --> 00:01:35,279 Speaker 1: And how 32 00:01:36,580 --> 00:01:40,259 Speaker 1: with me to discuss this issue? Debbie Fordyce, she is 33 00:01:40,269 --> 00:01:44,330 Speaker 1: the president of the migrant workers rights group TWC two. Hello, 34 00:01:44,339 --> 00:01:47,660 Speaker 1: it's wonderful to be here. Associate professor Walter Tara who 35 00:01:47,669 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: heads up an Urban Transport Masters program at the Singapore 36 00:01:51,410 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: University of Social Sciences. Hi, good to be here. And 37 00:01:54,489 --> 00:01:55,319 Speaker 1: just a quick note to add 38 00:01:55,425 --> 00:01:58,275 Speaker 1: that we did reach out to several business groups including 39 00:01:58,285 --> 00:02:01,875 Speaker 1: the Association for small and medium enterprises and the Singapore 40 00:02:01,885 --> 00:02:04,894 Speaker 1: Contractors Association. We invited them to come on the show 41 00:02:05,004 --> 00:02:07,544 Speaker 1: but they declined. Ok, Walter, I'm going to start with 42 00:02:07,555 --> 00:02:10,085 Speaker 1: you now, the the business community statement which you know, 43 00:02:10,095 --> 00:02:12,714 Speaker 1: it highlights how costs will go up. That's been met 44 00:02:12,725 --> 00:02:16,714 Speaker 1: with some criticism including from ambassador at large, Tommy. But 45 00:02:16,725 --> 00:02:18,365 Speaker 1: I can see how if you're not, you know, running 46 00:02:18,375 --> 00:02:21,615 Speaker 1: the business yourself, it's easy to dismiss the real concerns. 47 00:02:21,940 --> 00:02:24,449 Speaker 1: So we spoke to several people who, who are involved 48 00:02:24,460 --> 00:02:28,008 Speaker 1: in transporting workers. One of them runs a construction company, 49 00:02:28,139 --> 00:02:30,728 Speaker 1: they build highways and bridges he told us that a 50 00:02:30,740 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 1: job requiring about 3 to 400 workers will need at 51 00:02:33,449 --> 00:02:37,059 Speaker 1: least 10 buses. And he estimates that could cost him 52 00:02:37,070 --> 00:02:39,339 Speaker 1: at least half a million dollars a year beyond money. 53 00:02:39,350 --> 00:02:40,109 Speaker 1: There's also the 54 00:02:40,330 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 1: shortage of drivers and buses. So costs and logistics cannot 55 00:02:43,970 --> 00:02:46,918 Speaker 1: be waived away. As an economist break down the issue 56 00:02:46,929 --> 00:02:50,309 Speaker 1: of cost and how that will trickle down the chain. 57 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:55,300 Speaker 1: I think we have to realize that safety is essentially expensive, right? 58 00:02:55,309 --> 00:02:58,639 Speaker 1: Or rather that safety involves tradeoff in the entire system. 59 00:02:58,910 --> 00:03:01,589 Speaker 1: What we do in the transport system is we try 60 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:05,699 Speaker 1: to balance safety among other competing objectives that we might have. 61 00:03:05,710 --> 00:03:07,589 Speaker 1: So just to give a simple example that I think 62 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: everybody is familiar with, you just have to look at 63 00:03:09,970 --> 00:03:12,279 Speaker 1: the speed limit, the speed limit that we set on 64 00:03:12,288 --> 00:03:15,270 Speaker 1: the road, tries to trade off the safety of people 65 00:03:15,279 --> 00:03:17,750 Speaker 1: on the road versus getting to where you want to 66 00:03:17,758 --> 00:03:18,538 Speaker 1: go on time. 67 00:03:18,788 --> 00:03:22,859 Speaker 1: And so you could actually increase safety by reducing the 68 00:03:22,869 --> 00:03:25,619 Speaker 1: speed limit. But that would mean that for a lot 69 00:03:25,630 --> 00:03:27,279 Speaker 1: of people, you would take a huge amount of time 70 00:03:27,288 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 1: to get to where you want to go and people 71 00:03:28,649 --> 00:03:31,029 Speaker 1: aren't willing to make the trade off. I think when 72 00:03:31,038 --> 00:03:34,910 Speaker 1: it comes to thinking about safety for migrant workers, we 73 00:03:34,919 --> 00:03:38,100 Speaker 1: have to admit we're making a tradeoff here. We're basically 74 00:03:38,110 --> 00:03:40,779 Speaker 1: saying with the current system we have today that we're 75 00:03:40,789 --> 00:03:44,110 Speaker 1: willing to accept some compromises and safety in return for 76 00:03:44,119 --> 00:03:45,500 Speaker 1: a lower cost of the system. 77 00:03:45,690 --> 00:03:48,580 Speaker 1: The real issue there is that this is a choice 78 00:03:48,589 --> 00:03:52,919 Speaker 1: or a situation that we're forcing on migrant workers in 79 00:03:52,929 --> 00:03:56,178 Speaker 1: a way. And that's a very different situation from maybe 80 00:03:56,190 --> 00:03:58,339 Speaker 1: the safety trade off that you and I might make 81 00:03:58,350 --> 00:04:00,660 Speaker 1: if we're driving our own vehicle and we choose to 82 00:04:00,669 --> 00:04:02,550 Speaker 1: drive a bit faster or something like that. I mean, 83 00:04:02,559 --> 00:04:04,580 Speaker 1: that's a risk that we're taking on ourselves. But in 84 00:04:04,589 --> 00:04:07,119 Speaker 1: this case, it is a risk, I suppose 85 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: in a way we're imposing on people and they don't 86 00:04:10,169 --> 00:04:11,320 Speaker 1: have a lot to say in the matter. And I 87 00:04:11,330 --> 00:04:14,690 Speaker 1: think that's the difficult issue here. Really, Debbie. Have you 88 00:04:14,699 --> 00:04:17,089 Speaker 1: heard what Walter has said? Yes, of course, I agree 89 00:04:17,100 --> 00:04:19,659 Speaker 1: with all of those complexities that have been brought up. 90 00:04:19,670 --> 00:04:22,209 Speaker 1: It should be remembered that a lot of these workers 91 00:04:22,220 --> 00:04:24,420 Speaker 1: are making a very low salary. They don't enjoy a 92 00:04:24,428 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: minimum salary like most Singaporeans do with the progressive wage scheme. 93 00:04:28,970 --> 00:04:31,368 Speaker 1: But the people that we talk to usually are making 94 00:04:31,380 --> 00:04:35,079 Speaker 1: around $500 as their basic salary. If costs go up 95 00:04:35,089 --> 00:04:38,169 Speaker 1: for employers that usually will be borne by the workers 96 00:04:38,178 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: in some way or another. 97 00:04:39,850 --> 00:04:42,630 Speaker 1: So the employers already have a lot of costs to 98 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,049 Speaker 1: deal with, you know, the levies and the costs of 99 00:04:45,059 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 1: housing and maintaining workers and the security bond and things 100 00:04:48,170 --> 00:04:51,980 Speaker 1: like that. We understand that especially these small subcontractors will 101 00:04:51,988 --> 00:04:54,368 Speaker 1: be feeling a lot of pressure with this, but I 102 00:04:54,380 --> 00:04:56,399 Speaker 1: don't think that I can come up with any sort 103 00:04:56,410 --> 00:05:00,099 Speaker 1: of solution. But sometimes we have seen some really fast 104 00:05:00,109 --> 00:05:04,450 Speaker 1: action on things. Remember in 2013, the so called riots 105 00:05:04,459 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: when that 106 00:05:04,946 --> 00:05:09,556 Speaker 1: Indian worker Kumara when he died, the problem was in 107 00:05:09,565 --> 00:05:12,986 Speaker 1: the issue of buses and transport. At that time when 108 00:05:12,997 --> 00:05:16,877 Speaker 1: that happened, there was a very haphazard system of small 109 00:05:16,886 --> 00:05:21,337 Speaker 1: transport vehicles including small lorries, jostling around the side streets 110 00:05:21,346 --> 00:05:23,837 Speaker 1: trying to pick people up. He got caught in the 111 00:05:23,846 --> 00:05:27,377 Speaker 1: middle of it. He was run over very quickly afterwards. 112 00:05:27,386 --> 00:05:29,976 Speaker 1: There was a system set up for buses to 113 00:05:30,044 --> 00:05:33,984 Speaker 1: transport workers in large numbers back to their dormitories and 114 00:05:33,993 --> 00:05:36,313 Speaker 1: there's a huge space there for them to line up 115 00:05:36,324 --> 00:05:39,092 Speaker 1: nicely and they're assured they'll get on the right bus 116 00:05:39,104 --> 00:05:41,294 Speaker 1: and the bus will bring them there and take them 117 00:05:41,303 --> 00:05:45,813 Speaker 1: back because of COVID. That system was scrapped because people 118 00:05:45,824 --> 00:05:48,223 Speaker 1: weren't allowed out of the dormitories when they were finally 119 00:05:48,234 --> 00:05:50,854 Speaker 1: allowed out, they started to come back to that area 120 00:05:50,863 --> 00:05:53,924 Speaker 1: in large numbers. And I've noticed that that area is 121 00:05:53,933 --> 00:05:55,074 Speaker 1: not fully operation 122 00:05:55,321 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: now that we're back to small lorries, ferrying people from 123 00:05:59,531 --> 00:06:02,979 Speaker 1: little India on Sunday evenings back to dorms. But these 124 00:06:02,990 --> 00:06:06,281 Speaker 1: are again these small open lorries. But my point is 125 00:06:06,290 --> 00:06:09,669 Speaker 1: action was taken immediately. Ok. So you're saying change can 126 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: be affected. It almost sounds like you're talking more about 127 00:06:11,531 --> 00:06:15,010 Speaker 1: the infrastructure to support these workers in this area of transportation, 128 00:06:15,190 --> 00:06:18,260 Speaker 1: we can't deny that cost is an issue. As Walter mentioned, 129 00:06:18,270 --> 00:06:20,170 Speaker 1: safety is expensive, ironically, 130 00:06:20,380 --> 00:06:22,500 Speaker 1: and that's one of the main arguments given by the 131 00:06:22,510 --> 00:06:25,828 Speaker 1: business community, including a project today. So I want to 132 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:27,929 Speaker 1: just play you a clip. We have the vice president 133 00:06:27,940 --> 00:06:31,019 Speaker 1: of the Association of Small and medium Enterprises A Y 134 00:06:31,079 --> 00:06:33,859 Speaker 1: and this is what he said on TV. Imagine a 135 00:06:34,079 --> 00:06:37,670 Speaker 1: guy that can be Ferried together with a lorry now 136 00:06:37,678 --> 00:06:39,940 Speaker 1: has to take a separate transport, maybe two transport if 137 00:06:39,950 --> 00:06:42,518 Speaker 1: you have more workers, right? And you're going to add 138 00:06:42,529 --> 00:06:44,170 Speaker 1: up to road congestion. 139 00:06:44,570 --> 00:06:47,019 Speaker 1: And if you think about that, you know, if they 140 00:06:47,029 --> 00:06:49,359 Speaker 1: don't take a a grab because it's too expensive and 141 00:06:49,369 --> 00:06:51,459 Speaker 1: costly because it's gonna drive up cost, right? 142 00:06:52,109 --> 00:06:55,349 Speaker 1: They paid public transport, public transport may, may end up 143 00:06:55,359 --> 00:06:58,899 Speaker 1: taking longer. Your project ends up being delayed. So he's 144 00:06:58,910 --> 00:07:01,890 Speaker 1: really highlighting a certain level of inconvenience. Many of the 145 00:07:01,899 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: companies already have these lorries and these are their workers. 146 00:07:04,488 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: So it makes sense a fair concern, especially based on 147 00:07:08,290 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: the delays we've been having for many BT O projects, 148 00:07:10,489 --> 00:07:11,100 Speaker 1: especially 149 00:07:11,350 --> 00:07:13,989 Speaker 1: your, your views on that walter. If we want to 150 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,649 Speaker 1: change the system, it's not something that I think is 151 00:07:16,660 --> 00:07:19,489 Speaker 1: going to happen overnight. But at the same time, if 152 00:07:19,500 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: we don't say that we have any intent to change 153 00:07:21,890 --> 00:07:24,799 Speaker 1: the system, I don't think any change will actually meaningfully result. 154 00:07:24,809 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: And that's really the problem here. So what I mean 155 00:07:26,890 --> 00:07:27,820 Speaker 1: by this is that, 156 00:07:28,059 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: I don't think that the situation if we have a 157 00:07:30,890 --> 00:07:33,828 Speaker 1: ban on transporting a migrant workers in, I don't think 158 00:07:33,839 --> 00:07:37,489 Speaker 1: the situation will be one where we convert immediately to 159 00:07:37,500 --> 00:07:39,589 Speaker 1: something else and I don't think it will be one 160 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:42,799 Speaker 1: either where, for example, all the workers start taking public 161 00:07:42,809 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: transport or they start taking private buses or whatever. I 162 00:07:45,209 --> 00:07:47,489 Speaker 1: think it will be a mix of things. The real 163 00:07:47,500 --> 00:07:50,320 Speaker 1: response will be the following. First, I think we'll see 164 00:07:50,329 --> 00:07:54,660 Speaker 1: a movement of where migrant workers are staying compared to 165 00:07:54,670 --> 00:07:56,690 Speaker 1: their work site. So I think this current 166 00:07:56,790 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: situation where migrant workers especially in construction. So on almost 167 00:08:01,220 --> 00:08:04,959 Speaker 1: university living in dormitories, I don't think that situation will 168 00:08:04,970 --> 00:08:08,179 Speaker 1: be fully tenable. If we have a ban on migrant 169 00:08:08,190 --> 00:08:10,670 Speaker 1: workers in lorry, you'll have to look much more seriously 170 00:08:10,679 --> 00:08:14,359 Speaker 1: at citing workers much closer to their work sites or 171 00:08:14,369 --> 00:08:17,679 Speaker 1: closer to public transport. Then if you look at public transport, 172 00:08:17,690 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: I think you have to look at things like operating 173 00:08:19,730 --> 00:08:23,299 Speaker 1: hours to public transport, the operating hours, especially in the morning. 174 00:08:23,309 --> 00:08:24,750 Speaker 1: Don't make a lot of sense for a lot of 175 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:25,420 Speaker 1: work sites which have 176 00:08:25,519 --> 00:08:27,940 Speaker 1: to really start at the crack of dawn. So you 177 00:08:27,950 --> 00:08:31,059 Speaker 1: might have to look at extending operating hours on some services. 178 00:08:31,190 --> 00:08:34,229 Speaker 1: And then finally, when you look at the transport infrastructure, 179 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,659 Speaker 1: it's a reality that there are not enough private or 180 00:08:37,669 --> 00:08:40,919 Speaker 1: commercial bus services right now to accommodate their needs. And 181 00:08:40,929 --> 00:08:43,179 Speaker 1: that means that from the policy point of view, you 182 00:08:43,190 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: got to look at things like whether you need to 183 00:08:45,010 --> 00:08:48,719 Speaker 1: have more life and things, special life and coe categories 184 00:08:48,729 --> 00:08:51,530 Speaker 1: for these buses that it's not to say that this 185 00:08:51,539 --> 00:08:54,150 Speaker 1: is impossible. But what I'm saying is that 186 00:08:54,250 --> 00:08:56,770 Speaker 1: we're not talking about the situation, I think where you 187 00:08:56,780 --> 00:08:59,599 Speaker 1: banned this overnight and then everybody has to scramble. I 188 00:08:59,609 --> 00:09:02,608 Speaker 1: think it's more about if you want to be realistic 189 00:09:02,619 --> 00:09:05,419 Speaker 1: about phasing this out, you have to start putting in 190 00:09:05,429 --> 00:09:08,659 Speaker 1: some steps so that the entire ecosystem can adjust over 191 00:09:08,669 --> 00:09:11,069 Speaker 1: the next however many years to actually get to your goal. 192 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:12,619 Speaker 1: I think that's a good point. I mean, you mentioned 193 00:09:12,630 --> 00:09:14,869 Speaker 1: it's pretty much a change in the ecosystem. There is 194 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,190 Speaker 1: a change in the way we operate, which would be 195 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,069 Speaker 1: entirely different from now. The statement from the business community 196 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,919 Speaker 1: including a sme also released to the media, they said 197 00:09:23,359 --> 00:09:27,239 Speaker 1: in the process of transitioning to safer transportation modes for workers, 198 00:09:27,330 --> 00:09:30,059 Speaker 1: it is essential to acknowledge that society must be ready 199 00:09:30,070 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: to accept a change in the social compact. 200 00:09:33,549 --> 00:09:36,010 Speaker 1: It sounds a bit similar to what Walter has said. 201 00:09:36,020 --> 00:09:38,079 Speaker 1: But what do you take to mean by this change 202 00:09:38,090 --> 00:09:40,449 Speaker 1: in social compact? We really do have to look at 203 00:09:40,460 --> 00:09:43,070 Speaker 1: migrant workers from a more people centered point of view 204 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 1: rather than economic centered point of view. So Singapore is 205 00:09:46,010 --> 00:09:49,140 Speaker 1: always happy to pat itself on the back for creating 206 00:09:49,150 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: this economic miracle, but we just have to face up 207 00:09:51,849 --> 00:09:54,700 Speaker 1: to that economic miracle being built on the backs of 208 00:09:54,710 --> 00:09:58,239 Speaker 1: workers who are here in huge numbers. We're not asking 209 00:09:58,250 --> 00:10:00,250 Speaker 1: for an immediate ban to this kind of thing, but 210 00:10:00,260 --> 00:10:01,900 Speaker 1: it will have to happen in stages. 211 00:10:02,250 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: So for instance, a lot of workers do live on 212 00:10:04,409 --> 00:10:08,250 Speaker 1: construction sites and even though the dormitories don't have the 213 00:10:08,260 --> 00:10:12,039 Speaker 1: same sort of amenities and facilities, most workers prefer that 214 00:10:12,070 --> 00:10:14,239 Speaker 1: because it means that they can roll out of bed, 215 00:10:14,250 --> 00:10:16,679 Speaker 1: get themselves ready and be straight at work already. 216 00:10:16,940 --> 00:10:19,989 Speaker 1: The other problem about the way the lorry system works 217 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,969 Speaker 1: now is not only the exposure to the elements of sun, 218 00:10:23,979 --> 00:10:26,489 Speaker 1: heat and rain, but the fact that they might have 219 00:10:26,500 --> 00:10:29,309 Speaker 1: to be transported to the work site hours before they 220 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,059 Speaker 1: start work because there are too few lorries for so 221 00:10:32,070 --> 00:10:34,510 Speaker 1: many workers and they might have to wait a couple 222 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:36,569 Speaker 1: of hours before they go back to the dormitory. 223 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,809 Speaker 1: So the dormitories, they're situated far from any bus or 224 00:10:40,820 --> 00:10:46,789 Speaker 1: M RT stations. So how do people get anywhere before COVID? 225 00:10:46,799 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: It was a lot easier for workers to be living 226 00:10:48,890 --> 00:10:53,049 Speaker 1: outside of dormitories. They were living in residential areas and 227 00:10:53,059 --> 00:10:55,479 Speaker 1: they could make use of public transport. There are a 228 00:10:55,489 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: lot of buildings that are close to public transport that 229 00:10:58,289 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: are not being used that could be converted to workers 230 00:11:00,530 --> 00:11:03,409 Speaker 1: storms as is happening to a limited extent now. 231 00:11:03,809 --> 00:11:07,340 Speaker 1: But I think that the Singapore population would find that 232 00:11:07,349 --> 00:11:09,590 Speaker 1: a dis amenity to have to share all of this 233 00:11:09,599 --> 00:11:14,059 Speaker 1: public space on transport with so many migrant workers. But again, 234 00:11:14,070 --> 00:11:16,900 Speaker 1: why should that be, why shouldn't it be that they 235 00:11:16,909 --> 00:11:20,309 Speaker 1: have public transport made available to them? Do you feel 236 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,590 Speaker 1: that this is also a sort of a mindset that 237 00:11:22,599 --> 00:11:25,069 Speaker 1: perhaps those of us in Singapore? But I think it's 238 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,959 Speaker 1: also many other parts of the world, this whole not 239 00:11:27,969 --> 00:11:29,919 Speaker 1: in my backyard kind of mentality. 240 00:11:30,002 --> 00:11:32,952 Speaker 1: We know they're working for us. We know they're here, 241 00:11:32,961 --> 00:11:36,192 Speaker 1: but we don't want to fully embrace them in our society. 242 00:11:36,202 --> 00:11:39,211 Speaker 1: And that's very true. And that's a system that Singapore 243 00:11:39,221 --> 00:11:44,012 Speaker 1: has created to its credit, the system of temporary. So 244 00:11:44,021 --> 00:11:47,452 Speaker 1: the permanent temporariness of migrant workers who are never part 245 00:11:47,461 --> 00:11:49,452 Speaker 1: of the community. But would it be fair to say 246 00:11:49,461 --> 00:11:52,411 Speaker 1: that for the workers themselves, they might find that uncomfortable 247 00:11:52,421 --> 00:11:56,052 Speaker 1: too to have to be on the public transport system. 248 00:11:56,193 --> 00:11:58,643 Speaker 1: Everybody else doing peak hour to be living in an 249 00:11:58,653 --> 00:12:01,164 Speaker 1: H DB flat with them. I'm just trying to, you know, 250 00:12:01,174 --> 00:12:03,443 Speaker 1: throw a flip side. Is it possible that they would 251 00:12:03,453 --> 00:12:06,703 Speaker 1: also feel some discomfort not being among their own. If 252 00:12:06,713 --> 00:12:08,934 Speaker 1: they were living close to those areas, they would be 253 00:12:08,943 --> 00:12:11,294 Speaker 1: there in large numbers. So they probably would not be 254 00:12:11,304 --> 00:12:15,762 Speaker 1: as individuals. We're talking about 400,000 workers just about male 255 00:12:15,773 --> 00:12:18,643 Speaker 1: workers in the C MP sectors. So I don't think 256 00:12:18,653 --> 00:12:21,723 Speaker 1: they would be isolated among Singaporeans and I don't think 257 00:12:21,734 --> 00:12:22,304 Speaker 1: they would mind 258 00:12:22,385 --> 00:12:24,866 Speaker 1: the convenience at all. I think a lot of workers 259 00:12:24,875 --> 00:12:28,245 Speaker 1: feel that the dormitories have a prison, like quality to 260 00:12:28,255 --> 00:12:31,116 Speaker 1: them because of the kind of safety measures that are 261 00:12:31,125 --> 00:12:34,325 Speaker 1: in place, the difficulty of coming and going, the monitoring 262 00:12:34,335 --> 00:12:37,175 Speaker 1: of where they can go, but also the difficulty of 263 00:12:37,184 --> 00:12:41,106 Speaker 1: going any place, it involves a lot of time and money. 264 00:12:41,116 --> 00:12:43,846 Speaker 1: The workers themselves don't feel out of place if they're 265 00:12:43,856 --> 00:12:46,835 Speaker 1: mingling with Singaporeans. I think it's the Singapore residents that 266 00:12:46,846 --> 00:12:48,155 Speaker 1: have a problem with that. 267 00:12:48,739 --> 00:12:51,950 Speaker 1: So that is a much larger issue that I think 268 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,109 Speaker 1: we are probably unable to tackle entirely in this discussion. 269 00:12:55,119 --> 00:12:57,719 Speaker 1: And it sounds like transport is just one of the 270 00:12:57,729 --> 00:13:01,169 Speaker 1: things in the cog. But with regards to transport, authorities 271 00:13:01,179 --> 00:13:03,750 Speaker 1: have come up with some interim measures. They are asking 272 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,710 Speaker 1: for drivers to ensure that they are arrested. There's cover 273 00:13:06,719 --> 00:13:09,609 Speaker 1: for them in the lorries isn't overloaded. There are speed 274 00:13:09,619 --> 00:13:10,090 Speaker 1: limits 275 00:13:10,479 --> 00:13:14,309 Speaker 1: and we have seen a reduction in accidents involving lorries, 276 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,819 Speaker 1: faring workers. In fact, uh I just want to play 277 00:13:16,830 --> 00:13:19,419 Speaker 1: you a clip from Amy, the minister of state who 278 00:13:19,429 --> 00:13:21,380 Speaker 1: shared a bit about this as well as 279 00:13:21,390 --> 00:13:25,539 Speaker 2: stated in our previous response, the government shares the objective 280 00:13:25,549 --> 00:13:30,640 Speaker 2: of enhancing safety for every worker regardless of nationality. 281 00:13:31,609 --> 00:13:36,229 Speaker 2: We have worked closely with stakeholders and introduce a suite 282 00:13:36,239 --> 00:13:42,070 Speaker 2: of additional measures, additional safety measures. For example, we have 283 00:13:42,080 --> 00:13:46,950 Speaker 2: mandated that the front passenger cabin be fully occupied before 284 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,590 Speaker 2: the rear deck can be used to carry workers 285 00:13:50,500 --> 00:13:55,859 Speaker 2: required lorries, transporting workers to be fitted with canopies and 286 00:13:55,869 --> 00:13:57,190 Speaker 2: higher site railings. 287 00:13:58,049 --> 00:14:02,979 Speaker 2: Raise requirements for SPS and work permit holders to obtain 288 00:14:02,989 --> 00:14:06,380 Speaker 2: a Singapore class three license that will allow them to 289 00:14:06,390 --> 00:14:08,819 Speaker 2: drive light goods vehicles 290 00:14:09,729 --> 00:14:13,059 Speaker 2: and impose higher penalties for noncompliance. 291 00:14:14,419 --> 00:14:17,890 Speaker 2: These measures have helped to enhance safety and reduce the 292 00:14:17,900 --> 00:14:18,968 Speaker 2: risk for workers. 293 00:14:19,849 --> 00:14:23,419 Speaker 2: The average number of fatalities from road traffic accidents involving 294 00:14:23,429 --> 00:14:28,159 Speaker 2: persons on board lorries has halved from around six per year, 295 00:14:28,169 --> 00:14:32,690 Speaker 2: from 2013 to 2017 to around three per year from 296 00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:34,539 Speaker 2: 2018 to 2022. 297 00:14:35,710 --> 00:14:39,909 Speaker 2: The average number of injured persons on board lorries has 298 00:14:39,919 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 2: also reduced by about a third. 299 00:14:43,570 --> 00:14:48,099 Speaker 2: Our efforts will focus on improving safety for all road users. 300 00:14:48,710 --> 00:14:52,489 Speaker 2: We will also continue to roll out measures that address 301 00:14:52,599 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 2: a multitude of factors behind accidents such as driving behaviors 302 00:14:57,849 --> 00:14:59,000 Speaker 2: and vehicle speed. 303 00:15:00,250 --> 00:15:03,820 Speaker 2: The government recognizes that it is not ideal for workers 304 00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:07,809 Speaker 2: to be transported on lorries. But we also understand the 305 00:15:07,820 --> 00:15:10,059 Speaker 2: genuine concerns from employers, 306 00:15:10,070 --> 00:15:13,460 Speaker 1: Debbie are these measures enough? There has a reduction in accidents. 307 00:15:13,469 --> 00:15:17,179 Speaker 1: So could this be the in between having more interim measures? 308 00:15:17,190 --> 00:15:19,570 Speaker 1: So we're not banning it entirely but we're saying let's 309 00:15:19,580 --> 00:15:22,179 Speaker 1: make it safer. Yeah, I think so. But I think 310 00:15:22,190 --> 00:15:24,390 Speaker 1: that if the costs were to fall back on the 311 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,219 Speaker 1: worker that would be troubling. So I think that if 312 00:15:27,229 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: you were to ask a lot of workers, 313 00:15:28,835 --> 00:15:31,914 Speaker 1: would you rather have a higher salary and higher risk 314 00:15:31,924 --> 00:15:35,364 Speaker 1: or would you prefer a lower salary with increased safety? 315 00:15:35,375 --> 00:15:38,424 Speaker 1: They would go for the higher salary. This is something 316 00:15:38,434 --> 00:15:41,585 Speaker 1: that has become a very public issue because it's visible 317 00:15:41,594 --> 00:15:45,145 Speaker 1: to the public. Whereas many other, the things that workers 318 00:15:45,155 --> 00:15:48,315 Speaker 1: have to endure are not made public. And I do 319 00:15:48,325 --> 00:15:51,094 Speaker 1: think that a lot of these small companies that hire 320 00:15:51,104 --> 00:15:51,424 Speaker 1: them 321 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:56,020 Speaker 1: would probably not be able to exist without the deductions 322 00:15:56,030 --> 00:15:59,599 Speaker 1: from salary and other cost cutting measures that they take 323 00:15:59,609 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: that impact migrant workers. There's the problem, it will come 324 00:16:03,890 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: with costs. And I think that perhaps some of these 325 00:16:06,330 --> 00:16:10,570 Speaker 1: smaller subcontractors would be better off perhaps going out of 326 00:16:10,580 --> 00:16:14,210 Speaker 1: business and a different kind of system set up. Instead 327 00:16:14,380 --> 00:16:16,770 Speaker 1: the issue here is the workers just don't have a 328 00:16:16,780 --> 00:16:18,169 Speaker 1: lot of bargaining power, right? 329 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,809 Speaker 1: Because they know that there are a bunch more workers 330 00:16:20,820 --> 00:16:23,460 Speaker 1: completely willing to replace them at the same wages and 331 00:16:23,469 --> 00:16:25,969 Speaker 1: lower wages. And so that's why I think, you know, 332 00:16:25,979 --> 00:16:29,210 Speaker 1: this whole situation, unfortunate problem is a lot of the 333 00:16:29,219 --> 00:16:32,210 Speaker 1: costs get passed down to them simply because the employers 334 00:16:32,219 --> 00:16:34,479 Speaker 1: know they can replace these guys. That that's really the 335 00:16:34,489 --> 00:16:36,890 Speaker 1: issue here. Nobody wants to be the first to raise 336 00:16:36,900 --> 00:16:39,489 Speaker 1: their costs and then pitch that project because you always 337 00:16:39,500 --> 00:16:42,150 Speaker 1: have to find the lowest cost and the lowest cost 338 00:16:42,159 --> 00:16:44,909 Speaker 1: means generally, you know, the lowest wage workers. 339 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,909 Speaker 1: Hello, my name is Steve Lei and I'm Theresa Tang 340 00:16:50,919 --> 00:16:54,119 Speaker 1: and we are the hosts of CNN correspondent, a podcast 341 00:16:54,130 --> 00:16:56,210 Speaker 1: that takes you to the heart of the work our 342 00:16:56,219 --> 00:17:00,369 Speaker 1: correspondents do across the globe from China's COVID response to 343 00:17:00,380 --> 00:17:03,690 Speaker 1: the Child Care Center massacre in Thailand from the fall 344 00:17:03,700 --> 00:17:03,809 Speaker 1: of 345 00:17:04,405 --> 00:17:08,165 Speaker 1: to the rise of Anwar Ibrahim as Malaysia's Prime Minister, 346 00:17:08,175 --> 00:17:11,954 Speaker 1: we speak to the people at the reporting frontlines. So 347 00:17:11,964 --> 00:17:15,214 Speaker 1: if you want to know how the biggest global stories unfold, 348 00:17:15,224 --> 00:17:18,313 Speaker 1: make sure you follow or subscribe to us wherever you 349 00:17:18,324 --> 00:17:19,454 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. 350 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 1: Walter, there are many businesses, there are contractors that have 351 00:17:25,949 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: hundreds of workers and those that have 20 workers. I mean, 352 00:17:29,300 --> 00:17:30,409 Speaker 1: will it hit them differently 353 00:17:30,859 --> 00:17:34,500 Speaker 1: in the current ecosystem that we have? The contractors are 354 00:17:34,510 --> 00:17:37,550 Speaker 1: largely responsible for figuring out the role and how they're 355 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 1: going to get their workers to the site of making 356 00:17:39,449 --> 00:17:42,579 Speaker 1: those arrangements. And I think what you're pointing at is 357 00:17:42,589 --> 00:17:45,300 Speaker 1: that there's this fundamental problem of scale in a lot 358 00:17:45,310 --> 00:17:47,439 Speaker 1: of the sector in Singapore, which is that? Yeah, true. 359 00:17:47,449 --> 00:17:50,219 Speaker 1: We've got hundreds of thousands of migrant workers, but we 360 00:17:50,229 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 1: also have got dozens or hundreds of companies, many of 361 00:17:53,170 --> 00:17:56,430 Speaker 1: whom hire a very small number of workers from some respects. 362 00:17:56,439 --> 00:17:57,989 Speaker 1: It's actually a mystery as to why 363 00:17:58,067 --> 00:18:00,727 Speaker 1: we've got so many companies when actually many of them 364 00:18:00,737 --> 00:18:03,956 Speaker 1: probably suffer from very poor economies of scale. What I'm 365 00:18:03,967 --> 00:18:07,817 Speaker 1: pointing to here is that if we have some consolidation 366 00:18:07,827 --> 00:18:10,357 Speaker 1: in the sector, right? Or if we have, for example, 367 00:18:10,366 --> 00:18:13,636 Speaker 1: service providers in the sector who take up the role 368 00:18:13,646 --> 00:18:17,745 Speaker 1: of providing transport services. Right, then these are ways for 369 00:18:17,756 --> 00:18:21,827 Speaker 1: actually companies to outsource out contract some of these requirements 370 00:18:21,906 --> 00:18:23,726 Speaker 1: and then you don't have to worry about fulfilling it 371 00:18:23,737 --> 00:18:25,136 Speaker 1: themselves anymore. The other thing 372 00:18:25,292 --> 00:18:27,943 Speaker 1: talked about earlier is also the fact that for some 373 00:18:27,953 --> 00:18:31,034 Speaker 1: workers and some projects, there's going to be the option, 374 00:18:31,042 --> 00:18:34,473 Speaker 1: the realistic option of having those workers sighted on site 375 00:18:34,484 --> 00:18:37,572 Speaker 1: or much closer or the realistic option of them taking 376 00:18:37,583 --> 00:18:40,624 Speaker 1: public transport. The point here is that it will not 377 00:18:40,634 --> 00:18:45,114 Speaker 1: be a situation where overnight every single small company is 378 00:18:45,124 --> 00:18:47,042 Speaker 1: going to have to go and buy a bus or 379 00:18:47,053 --> 00:18:49,343 Speaker 1: something like that for their workers. It will be a 380 00:18:49,354 --> 00:18:52,443 Speaker 1: situation where some will have workers move closer, 381 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 1: some will have workers take public transport, some will contract 382 00:18:55,411 --> 00:18:57,330 Speaker 1: out the service. There are going to be a variety 383 00:18:57,340 --> 00:19:00,010 Speaker 1: of options. So we shouldn't imagine that all of a 384 00:19:00,020 --> 00:19:03,500 Speaker 1: sudden all these guys become transport companies overnight. That will 385 00:19:03,510 --> 00:19:05,970 Speaker 1: not be the case and it sounds like an outright 386 00:19:05,980 --> 00:19:08,830 Speaker 1: ban is really not the solution because it will hurt 387 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,031 Speaker 1: both sides. But this idea of having workers live on 388 00:19:12,041 --> 00:19:14,490 Speaker 1: site because that's happened in the past. But imagine if 389 00:19:14,500 --> 00:19:17,980 Speaker 1: it were to be regulated that, you know, at least 30% 390 00:19:17,990 --> 00:19:19,671 Speaker 1: of your workers have to live on site. 391 00:19:19,949 --> 00:19:22,859 Speaker 1: Debbie, is that something you mentioned earlier that that could 392 00:19:22,869 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: be preferred by the workers too. 393 00:19:25,130 --> 00:19:27,550 Speaker 1: Well, it still does happen and I think it depends 394 00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:29,619 Speaker 1: on the project. Of course, you know, if it's a 395 00:19:29,630 --> 00:19:32,708 Speaker 1: very large project, look at Marina Bay Sands, everyone was 396 00:19:32,719 --> 00:19:34,959 Speaker 1: living on site. So there are a lot of large 397 00:19:34,969 --> 00:19:37,729 Speaker 1: projects like that where it has happened and it does 398 00:19:37,739 --> 00:19:41,500 Speaker 1: continue to happen. But those are generally very large ones. 399 00:19:41,510 --> 00:19:44,780 Speaker 1: There are a lot of these small subcontractors, as Walter said, 400 00:19:44,790 --> 00:19:47,469 Speaker 1: they hire 10 or 20 people. These are the ones 401 00:19:47,479 --> 00:19:50,010 Speaker 1: that I think tend to have the most problems with 402 00:19:50,020 --> 00:19:52,400 Speaker 1: their jobs, with their companies and they might 403 00:19:52,474 --> 00:19:55,814 Speaker 1: be hired out as supply workers to different places all 404 00:19:55,824 --> 00:19:58,114 Speaker 1: the time for them. It doesn't make sense for them 405 00:19:58,125 --> 00:19:59,834 Speaker 1: to live on site. They do have to have some 406 00:19:59,844 --> 00:20:02,323 Speaker 1: place to live. So, yeah, I remember a few years 407 00:20:02,334 --> 00:20:04,484 Speaker 1: back when I did some renovations at home, the guys, 408 00:20:04,494 --> 00:20:06,185 Speaker 1: I would see them walking in from the bus stop 409 00:20:06,194 --> 00:20:07,774 Speaker 1: and they'd have a shower after the end of the 410 00:20:07,785 --> 00:20:10,244 Speaker 1: day and jump back on the bus just like everybody else. 411 00:20:10,255 --> 00:20:12,323 Speaker 1: But I guess it was because there were like maybe 412 00:20:12,334 --> 00:20:15,244 Speaker 1: five of them, you know, at most, what other solutions 413 00:20:15,255 --> 00:20:17,395 Speaker 1: can we have. So if we look at other ways 414 00:20:17,405 --> 00:20:19,744 Speaker 1: to innovate this, if we put aside the ban, 415 00:20:19,819 --> 00:20:23,150 Speaker 1: what are the other strategies we might employ to deal 416 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,189 Speaker 1: with the current situation and what can we do? That 417 00:20:25,199 --> 00:20:28,589 Speaker 1: would be fairly immediate from my side? It's very hard 418 00:20:28,599 --> 00:20:30,349 Speaker 1: for me to think about that because there are too 419 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,629 Speaker 1: many entities that are involved and we're really not looking 420 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,500 Speaker 1: for an immediate ban. We're looking for an improvement on 421 00:20:36,510 --> 00:20:40,869 Speaker 1: the situation and maybe eventually a ban on these small lorries. 422 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:45,229 Speaker 1: But we can certainly understand why they're used and why these, 423 00:20:45,239 --> 00:20:47,089 Speaker 1: especially the smallest contractors 424 00:20:47,165 --> 00:20:49,775 Speaker 1: use of this. We noticed that with all of these 425 00:20:49,785 --> 00:20:53,415 Speaker 1: voices about banning lorries, we see very few workers who 426 00:20:53,425 --> 00:20:55,655 Speaker 1: are standing up to say the same thing. And it's 427 00:20:55,665 --> 00:20:58,464 Speaker 1: because they fear for losing their jobs. Sounds like it's 428 00:20:58,474 --> 00:21:00,875 Speaker 1: really the economics, I mean, would money in a way 429 00:21:00,885 --> 00:21:03,604 Speaker 1: solve this problem? So if the government were to give 430 00:21:03,614 --> 00:21:07,275 Speaker 1: more subsidies for the implementation of this, if we as 431 00:21:07,285 --> 00:21:09,385 Speaker 1: users were willing to pay more at the end of 432 00:21:09,395 --> 00:21:11,823 Speaker 1: the day, for the work that is being done, could 433 00:21:11,834 --> 00:21:14,375 Speaker 1: that also to help resolve this issue? 434 00:21:14,790 --> 00:21:17,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, I I think money actually does make a huge 435 00:21:17,250 --> 00:21:20,060 Speaker 1: difference because I think for a lot of the contractors 436 00:21:20,069 --> 00:21:22,339 Speaker 1: who are in the business today and again, to be 437 00:21:22,349 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 1: very fair to them, they have accepted a project on 438 00:21:25,410 --> 00:21:29,239 Speaker 1: certain terms and conditions with a certain price assuming that 439 00:21:29,250 --> 00:21:31,389 Speaker 1: the current cost structure is going to be what it is. 440 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:32,180 Speaker 1: So all those 441 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,948 Speaker 1: guys who have accepted projects over the next couple of years, 442 00:21:34,959 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 1: it's obviously going to be impossible for them to actually 443 00:21:38,010 --> 00:21:40,630 Speaker 1: do those projects on time and within budget and make 444 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,349 Speaker 1: money for themselves if they had to contemplate a huge 445 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:46,579 Speaker 1: change in regulations overnight, that forced them to basically change 446 00:21:46,589 --> 00:21:49,139 Speaker 1: the entire operating model. So I think to be fair 447 00:21:49,150 --> 00:21:49,709 Speaker 1: to them 448 00:21:49,900 --> 00:21:52,229 Speaker 1: uh with the current projects and pricing in mind, they 449 00:21:52,239 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: can't do this. But that's why if we're talking about 450 00:21:54,810 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: changing the system, uh it has to be something which 451 00:21:57,530 --> 00:22:00,139 Speaker 1: is not done overnight, but it has to be something 452 00:22:00,150 --> 00:22:03,169 Speaker 1: which is done with a sufficient timeline with sufficient plans 453 00:22:03,250 --> 00:22:06,449 Speaker 1: so that any changes in costs get priced into the system. 454 00:22:06,459 --> 00:22:07,810 Speaker 1: I think that's the important thing here. 455 00:22:08,130 --> 00:22:10,949 Speaker 1: The problem with the companies is that if somebody is 456 00:22:10,959 --> 00:22:13,260 Speaker 1: going to be the first guy to try to implement 457 00:22:13,270 --> 00:22:16,530 Speaker 1: better standards for transport of migrant workers, they'll suffer a 458 00:22:16,540 --> 00:22:19,300 Speaker 1: huge disadvantage in the market. And so I think one 459 00:22:19,310 --> 00:22:22,130 Speaker 1: possible way of getting around this is for the market 460 00:22:22,140 --> 00:22:24,930 Speaker 1: for the people who are buying construction services to actually 461 00:22:24,939 --> 00:22:27,260 Speaker 1: move first. And what we've done in the past I 462 00:22:27,270 --> 00:22:29,979 Speaker 1: think is that uh when we have a problem with 463 00:22:29,989 --> 00:22:32,229 Speaker 1: the ecosystem and we want it to get moving in 464 00:22:32,239 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: the correct direction, 465 00:22:33,729 --> 00:22:36,540 Speaker 1: sometimes it might be the public sector which needs to 466 00:22:36,550 --> 00:22:39,389 Speaker 1: take the lead. So that means that for public sector 467 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,829 Speaker 1: construction projects could be heb projects or if you're more 468 00:22:42,839 --> 00:22:46,319 Speaker 1: cost worried, it could be, for example, other government infrastructure, 469 00:22:46,479 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 1: you could say that you want to see perhaps a 470 00:22:49,010 --> 00:22:52,589 Speaker 1: higher minimum standard for worker protection in terms of transport. 471 00:22:52,660 --> 00:22:55,339 Speaker 1: And so you would say that part of the conditions 472 00:22:55,349 --> 00:22:58,629 Speaker 1: of tendering for those projects is that you stipulate, you 473 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: guarantee that you provide a certain transport 474 00:23:01,095 --> 00:23:03,764 Speaker 1: standard, which is better than the current situation of migrant 475 00:23:03,776 --> 00:23:05,395 Speaker 1: workers and lorries and so on, right? So, so that 476 00:23:05,406 --> 00:23:07,816 Speaker 1: could be one way of moving it forward. The idea 477 00:23:07,826 --> 00:23:10,086 Speaker 1: there is that if you start with certain public sector 478 00:23:10,095 --> 00:23:14,114 Speaker 1: projects where you're willing to absorb, perhaps the increased cost, right, 479 00:23:14,125 --> 00:23:17,785 Speaker 1: then you could actually lay the groundwork for the ecosystem 480 00:23:17,796 --> 00:23:20,375 Speaker 1: to start moving gradually in the correct direction. So that's 481 00:23:20,385 --> 00:23:22,525 Speaker 1: one way of looking at it. But again, here, we're 482 00:23:22,536 --> 00:23:25,985 Speaker 1: talking about public money, we're talking about the burden of taxpayers. 483 00:23:25,994 --> 00:23:28,365 Speaker 1: So this would have to be, you know, something 484 00:23:28,462 --> 00:23:31,802 Speaker 1: that has public support. It can't be a situation of, 485 00:23:31,811 --> 00:23:33,671 Speaker 1: you know, the government saying we want to do this. 486 00:23:33,682 --> 00:23:35,741 Speaker 1: And then the next day, the public says, what are 487 00:23:35,751 --> 00:23:38,222 Speaker 1: you doing about taxpayer dollars? We at least have to 488 00:23:38,232 --> 00:23:42,072 Speaker 1: have probably more broad consensus on this from the public 489 00:23:42,082 --> 00:23:45,081 Speaker 1: that we want to see things moving in that direction. OK. 490 00:23:45,092 --> 00:23:47,880 Speaker 1: Last question, moving forward, we obviously can't find a solution today. 491 00:23:47,891 --> 00:23:50,062 Speaker 1: Do you think the next step needs to be sort 492 00:23:50,071 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 1: of a task force to set up a committee to 493 00:23:52,131 --> 00:23:53,702 Speaker 1: look at this? And what are some of the areas 494 00:23:53,712 --> 00:23:55,572 Speaker 1: that you feel should be addressed in the 495 00:23:55,897 --> 00:24:00,588 Speaker 1: future? Walter from a social perspective, we decide that it's 496 00:24:00,598 --> 00:24:04,186 Speaker 1: untenable that we subject migrant workers to essentially a different 497 00:24:04,196 --> 00:24:07,897 Speaker 1: safety standard from what we want to accept for Singaporeans. 498 00:24:07,907 --> 00:24:10,167 Speaker 1: If that's the case, then I think we do actually 499 00:24:10,177 --> 00:24:12,277 Speaker 1: need to set some steps in motion to think about 500 00:24:12,287 --> 00:24:14,578 Speaker 1: this more carefully and think about what are the steps 501 00:24:14,588 --> 00:24:18,137 Speaker 1: we need to take to actually solve the problem sustainably 502 00:24:18,218 --> 00:24:19,957 Speaker 1: if you want to talk about the task force, I 503 00:24:19,968 --> 00:24:22,297 Speaker 1: do think that if we agree that this is a problem, 504 00:24:22,307 --> 00:24:23,098 Speaker 1: a task force, 505 00:24:23,193 --> 00:24:26,124 Speaker 1: it is important because it is very clear to me 506 00:24:26,144 --> 00:24:30,244 Speaker 1: that we cannot have the responsibility for solving. The problem 507 00:24:30,254 --> 00:24:33,953 Speaker 1: lies solely on the backs of the companies involved in 508 00:24:33,963 --> 00:24:36,833 Speaker 1: hiring migrant workers. And that's because there are so many 509 00:24:36,843 --> 00:24:40,302 Speaker 1: moving parts to this. We're talking about having workers live 510 00:24:40,313 --> 00:24:43,083 Speaker 1: closer to their work site, which means that for example, 511 00:24:43,093 --> 00:24:45,984 Speaker 1: for H DB residents and Singaporeans, they have to accept 512 00:24:45,994 --> 00:24:48,124 Speaker 1: that there might be more migrant workers in the community. 513 00:24:48,134 --> 00:24:50,463 Speaker 1: So that's one important stakeholder. We're talking, 514 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:54,079 Speaker 1: talking about possibly adapting the public transport system to accommodate 515 00:24:54,089 --> 00:24:57,790 Speaker 1: migrant worker transport more readily, which means more operating costs, 516 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:01,170 Speaker 1: for example, perhaps extended operating hours in some areas. And 517 00:25:01,180 --> 00:25:03,889 Speaker 1: we're also talking about the rest of the transport system, right? 518 00:25:03,900 --> 00:25:06,589 Speaker 1: Private buses which are currently inadequate to meet the needs 519 00:25:06,599 --> 00:25:09,010 Speaker 1: of migrant workers, but also from the point of view 520 00:25:09,020 --> 00:25:12,689 Speaker 1: of Singaporeans or motorists accepting that yeah, there might be 521 00:25:12,699 --> 00:25:15,530 Speaker 1: certain issues of congestion and so on. But again, these 522 00:25:15,540 --> 00:25:17,869 Speaker 1: are issues that we have to live with and adapt to. 523 00:25:18,150 --> 00:25:20,689 Speaker 1: Uh and that's why I think absolutely, if we are 524 00:25:20,699 --> 00:25:23,689 Speaker 1: really going to be serious about having this change, it 525 00:25:23,699 --> 00:25:26,089 Speaker 1: can't be overnight, there has to be a look at 526 00:25:26,099 --> 00:25:29,939 Speaker 1: it from many different stakeholders and we will have to 527 00:25:29,949 --> 00:25:33,130 Speaker 1: come up with some policy adaptations and acceptance of some 528 00:25:33,140 --> 00:25:35,739 Speaker 1: changes in our way of living in order to accommodate this. 529 00:25:35,750 --> 00:25:37,930 Speaker 1: But I think that's where we we have to be 530 00:25:37,939 --> 00:25:40,599 Speaker 1: going if we are serious about this. But if we're 531 00:25:40,609 --> 00:25:42,329 Speaker 1: not serious about this, and I think we have to 532 00:25:42,339 --> 00:25:44,859 Speaker 1: admit that really what we're saying is we're accepting a 533 00:25:44,869 --> 00:25:46,060 Speaker 1: different safety standard, right? 534 00:25:46,130 --> 00:25:49,270 Speaker 1: For migrant workers compared to Singaporeans. Yeah, there would just 535 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,250 Speaker 1: have to be the political will to do it. There 536 00:25:51,260 --> 00:25:53,889 Speaker 1: are a lot more voices that are speaking out about this. 537 00:25:53,900 --> 00:25:55,810 Speaker 1: And so that's a good thing. That's maybe where things 538 00:25:55,819 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 1: will start. And I think it may have to come 539 00:25:57,890 --> 00:26:01,339 Speaker 1: from maybe foreign companies doing business in Singapore who decide 540 00:26:01,349 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 1: to pull out because they see this as a human 541 00:26:03,930 --> 00:26:07,089 Speaker 1: rights issue. So the foreign companies have their shareholders to 542 00:26:07,099 --> 00:26:10,030 Speaker 1: answer to and people have been looking into this kind 543 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,170 Speaker 1: of thing, the issues not only of transport by lorries, 544 00:26:13,180 --> 00:26:13,979 Speaker 1: but of 545 00:26:14,109 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 1: recruitment fees and low wages and lack of medical treatment, 546 00:26:17,689 --> 00:26:20,770 Speaker 1: access to medical treatment, various other things. So that may 547 00:26:20,780 --> 00:26:24,869 Speaker 1: be something that would push the government over to rethinking 548 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,810 Speaker 1: a lot of these things. But with the political will, 549 00:26:27,819 --> 00:26:30,489 Speaker 1: then perhaps a task force could be put together. So 550 00:26:30,500 --> 00:26:32,959 Speaker 1: it certainly sounds like the issue of transport is just 551 00:26:33,130 --> 00:26:35,629 Speaker 1: one of the factors that many of our migrant workers 552 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 1: are facing. And it sounds like it's a larger discussion 553 00:26:38,130 --> 00:26:40,079 Speaker 1: that we need to be having about having them in 554 00:26:40,089 --> 00:26:43,189 Speaker 1: our society working, being among us and how we deal 555 00:26:43,199 --> 00:26:43,698 Speaker 1: with that. 556 00:26:44,439 --> 00:26:46,948 Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for coming in, sharing your 557 00:26:46,959 --> 00:26:49,550 Speaker 1: thoughts and to all of you who have been listening in. 558 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,069 Speaker 1: In fact, if you have some ideas, solutions to this 559 00:26:53,079 --> 00:26:56,270 Speaker 1: uh intractable problem, it's has been called, you know, we 560 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:57,959 Speaker 1: do love to hear from you so you can drop 561 00:26:57,969 --> 00:27:01,530 Speaker 1: us an email at CN A podcast at dot com 562 00:27:01,540 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: dot SG. And if you have any other views to 563 00:27:04,530 --> 00:27:06,670 Speaker 1: share also, just drop us a note, you know, otherwise 564 00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,629 Speaker 1: you can drop us a five star review maybe four 565 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,760 Speaker 1: if you really didn't like it, but on Apple podcasts 566 00:27:12,770 --> 00:27:13,729 Speaker 1: or on Spotify 567 00:27:14,099 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 1: till next week, I'm Steven. Keep talking. Keep connecting. Bye 568 00:27:18,290 --> 00:27:18,708 Speaker 1: for now.