1 00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:02,240 Speaker 1: This is AC N A podcast. 2 00:00:05,980 --> 00:00:08,988 Speaker 1: Hey, everyone. It's Steven here and welcome back to a 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,689 Speaker 1: brand new season of Heart of the Matter. Now, when 4 00:00:12,699 --> 00:00:15,060 Speaker 1: it comes to languages, you know, I'm actually really only 5 00:00:15,069 --> 00:00:17,629 Speaker 1: fluent in English. Now, if I had to move to 6 00:00:17,639 --> 00:00:21,219 Speaker 1: another country to live and English was not their national language, 7 00:00:21,250 --> 00:00:23,389 Speaker 1: would it be fair for them to ask that I 8 00:00:23,399 --> 00:00:28,719 Speaker 1: be somewhat conversant in their language? That's our discussion for today. 9 00:00:28,879 --> 00:00:32,229 Speaker 1: Should an English test be made a requirement for someone 10 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,049 Speaker 1: to become a Singapore citizen 11 00:00:34,500 --> 00:00:37,869 Speaker 1: leader of the opposition Pritam Singh had made his suggestion 12 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:42,778 Speaker 1: in parliament. Here's what he said English as a criteria 13 00:00:42,790 --> 00:00:47,509 Speaker 1: for citizenship selection because of its utility as a language 14 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,638 Speaker 1: of a better integration between Singaporeans and new citizens. Minister 15 00:00:51,650 --> 00:00:55,139 Speaker 1: for Communications and Information, Josephine Teu was quick to rebut. 16 00:00:55,380 --> 00:00:55,470 Speaker 1: I 17 00:00:55,479 --> 00:00:59,159 Speaker 2: must admit to being quite surprised by his position on 18 00:00:59,169 --> 00:01:02,540 Speaker 2: the ground every day, we meet with residents who cannot 19 00:01:02,549 --> 00:01:03,709 Speaker 2: speak a word of English 20 00:01:04,308 --> 00:01:07,179 Speaker 2: and I don't think anyone would suggest that they are 21 00:01:07,188 --> 00:01:08,619 Speaker 2: any less integrated 22 00:01:08,900 --> 00:01:10,110 Speaker 2: to Singapore society 23 00:01:10,220 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: while that exchange got people talking is language, an important 24 00:01:13,970 --> 00:01:17,238 Speaker 1: part of being a citizen 500 people took part in 25 00:01:17,250 --> 00:01:19,970 Speaker 1: a poll conducted by C N A. 80% of them 26 00:01:19,980 --> 00:01:23,690 Speaker 1: said yes, they do want new citizens to be able 27 00:01:23,699 --> 00:01:27,250 Speaker 1: to communicate in English. So what do you think a 28 00:01:27,260 --> 00:01:30,300 Speaker 1: yay or name? How important is it for one to 29 00:01:30,309 --> 00:01:32,910 Speaker 1: be conversant in the language of the country they live in? 30 00:01:33,089 --> 00:01:35,739 Speaker 1: Will the test to really tell us how well they 31 00:01:35,750 --> 00:01:37,369 Speaker 1: might integrate in the country 32 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,050 Speaker 1: with me in studio today. I have, she is Chief 33 00:01:42,059 --> 00:01:45,220 Speaker 1: Operating Officer at Momentum Works and she's also in the 34 00:01:45,230 --> 00:01:49,099 Speaker 1: process of getting her Singapore citizenship. Hi there. Thanks for 35 00:01:49,110 --> 00:01:53,849 Speaker 1: having me. We also have Doctor Li. He is a poet, 36 00:01:53,860 --> 00:01:57,260 Speaker 1: graphic artist and a literary critic. Hi, great to talk 37 00:01:57,269 --> 00:02:01,790 Speaker 1: to you again. I'm a born born raised with the 38 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,209 Speaker 1: full English vocabulary. I know that for sure. 39 00:02:05,019 --> 00:02:09,070 Speaker 1: OK. Welcome guys. Now we've heard the results, 80% of 40 00:02:09,080 --> 00:02:11,809 Speaker 1: Singaporeans surveyed by C N A believe that an English 41 00:02:11,820 --> 00:02:16,198 Speaker 1: test should actually be part of the citizenship application process, 42 00:02:16,490 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: quick reactions from both of you. Maybe you want to 43 00:02:18,529 --> 00:02:21,429 Speaker 1: go first. Does this surprise you? No, it doesn't because 44 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:24,270 Speaker 1: I think the demographics of Singapore has been changing. 45 00:02:24,550 --> 00:02:26,690 Speaker 1: And so I think it's good to revisit a question 46 00:02:26,699 --> 00:02:29,669 Speaker 1: like this again. OK. And what do you think? I'm 47 00:02:29,679 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: a bit shocked because I don't think that this should 48 00:02:32,729 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: be a requirement to get Singapore citizenship. OK. And you 49 00:02:36,089 --> 00:02:37,619 Speaker 1: are in the midst of getting your so you don't 50 00:02:37,630 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: feel that language should be one of the requirements. I 51 00:02:40,369 --> 00:02:43,119 Speaker 1: don't think language should be one of the requirements to 52 00:02:43,130 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: get citizenship. Ok. I'm more open. I think anything goes 53 00:02:47,250 --> 00:02:48,300 Speaker 1: as long as the position is 54 00:02:48,395 --> 00:02:50,686 Speaker 1: properly considered when we take it up. Well, I mean, 55 00:02:50,695 --> 00:02:54,046 Speaker 1: the language proficiency test is not entirely new, other countries 56 00:02:54,055 --> 00:02:56,865 Speaker 1: do it too. Like Germany, Switzerland. I mean, they have one. 57 00:02:56,876 --> 00:03:00,315 Speaker 1: So what's different here? My point of view is that 58 00:03:00,436 --> 00:03:03,945 Speaker 1: when somebody is actually applying for citizenship, he or she 59 00:03:03,955 --> 00:03:06,656 Speaker 1: should have already been living in Singapore, working here, maybe 60 00:03:06,666 --> 00:03:10,225 Speaker 1: under another process, right? Especially for Singapore. We are a 61 00:03:10,235 --> 00:03:12,046 Speaker 1: multicultural country, 62 00:03:12,421 --> 00:03:15,371 Speaker 1: lingual and English is not even our national language, right? 63 00:03:15,382 --> 00:03:18,022 Speaker 1: So I would say that unlike Switzerland or Germany where 64 00:03:18,031 --> 00:03:21,052 Speaker 1: there's one or two languages, we should be open to 65 00:03:21,061 --> 00:03:25,011 Speaker 1: allow people from different nationalities to be in Singapore with 66 00:03:25,022 --> 00:03:29,011 Speaker 1: different language background. Ultimately, language is important as a working 67 00:03:29,022 --> 00:03:32,132 Speaker 1: language and you need it to be successful anyway. So 68 00:03:32,141 --> 00:03:34,912 Speaker 1: I don't think that should be a requirement to take 69 00:03:34,921 --> 00:03:36,031 Speaker 1: the test to be a citizen. 70 00:03:36,619 --> 00:03:38,380 Speaker 1: Yeah, I, I do agree with that as well to 71 00:03:38,389 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 1: a degree. Um But I can see the concerns people 72 00:03:41,009 --> 00:03:43,919 Speaker 1: have with wanting something that they can communicate among each 73 00:03:43,929 --> 00:03:46,470 Speaker 1: other with. Uh That's also because there have been a 74 00:03:46,479 --> 00:03:49,699 Speaker 1: lot of these mounting number of incidents where people try 75 00:03:49,710 --> 00:03:51,500 Speaker 1: to order food and try to buy things and they 76 00:03:51,509 --> 00:03:54,929 Speaker 1: can't communicate well with the service staff. When this question 77 00:03:54,940 --> 00:03:57,110 Speaker 1: came out, I think a lot of Singaporeans, especially the 80% 78 00:03:57,119 --> 00:03:59,190 Speaker 1: that you talked about just now who have voted for 79 00:03:59,199 --> 00:04:01,830 Speaker 1: English as a test to have is that they kind 80 00:04:01,839 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: of link all these issues together when we talk about 81 00:04:04,529 --> 00:04:06,089 Speaker 1: Singaporean citizens or people, 82 00:04:06,184 --> 00:04:08,824 Speaker 1: I mean that we are not necessarily dealing with people 83 00:04:08,835 --> 00:04:11,875 Speaker 1: who are here to work only we're dealing with people 84 00:04:11,884 --> 00:04:14,065 Speaker 1: who we are talking to on a day to day basis. 85 00:04:14,085 --> 00:04:17,594 Speaker 1: So I guess yes, certain knowledge of English is useful. 86 00:04:17,605 --> 00:04:19,493 Speaker 1: But what about the other languages? I mean, I of 87 00:04:19,505 --> 00:04:22,565 Speaker 1: a very awkward position because I'm actually thinking that something 88 00:04:22,575 --> 00:04:26,714 Speaker 1: much simpler, something that is more connected to Singaporeans is 89 00:04:26,725 --> 00:04:30,755 Speaker 1: more useful. Well, OK, of course, English is picked because 90 00:04:30,765 --> 00:04:33,095 Speaker 1: it's sort of the working language you picked on a key. 91 00:04:33,500 --> 00:04:36,940 Speaker 1: I mean, it's about communication in your day to day 92 00:04:36,950 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: activities because we're talking about integration, new people coming into 93 00:04:40,049 --> 00:04:42,739 Speaker 1: the country, Jolin. How would you feel if you were 94 00:04:42,750 --> 00:04:45,738 Speaker 1: instead of moving to Singapore and taking up Singapore citizenship 95 00:04:45,750 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 1: if you were doing it for a place like Germany, 96 00:04:47,488 --> 00:04:49,750 Speaker 1: for example, do you speak any German? No, I don't. 97 00:04:49,790 --> 00:04:51,799 Speaker 1: And what if they told you you got to speak 98 00:04:51,809 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 1: some German before you come in here. How would you 99 00:04:53,609 --> 00:04:55,709 Speaker 1: feel about that? I would say that it's a two 100 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,470 Speaker 1: pronged process, right? Number one, either I applied to work 101 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,089 Speaker 1: there for my job or maybe because 102 00:05:00,174 --> 00:05:02,565 Speaker 1: my spouse is that, that's why I'm here. Either way, 103 00:05:02,575 --> 00:05:05,024 Speaker 1: number one, I would need to integrate into that place 104 00:05:05,035 --> 00:05:07,135 Speaker 1: with or without a German test, right? Because I do 105 00:05:07,144 --> 00:05:09,295 Speaker 1: need to get around. So I would say that it 106 00:05:09,303 --> 00:05:12,464 Speaker 1: is in my interest to find a way to immerse 107 00:05:12,475 --> 00:05:15,454 Speaker 1: into that community with or without a test. So then 108 00:05:15,464 --> 00:05:16,993 Speaker 1: I think if they did tell me that, oh, I 109 00:05:17,005 --> 00:05:18,755 Speaker 1: need to do a test before I can become a 110 00:05:18,765 --> 00:05:21,424 Speaker 1: German citizen. I would be very disappointed saying that I've 111 00:05:21,434 --> 00:05:23,214 Speaker 1: done so much to be part of it, but I'm 112 00:05:23,225 --> 00:05:25,095 Speaker 1: still I need to go to a test. What if 113 00:05:25,105 --> 00:05:27,084 Speaker 1: they didn't make it a test? But they said 114 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: as a requirement, you must be able to speak a 115 00:05:30,850 --> 00:05:35,299 Speaker 1: certain basic level of German or at least subscribe to 116 00:05:35,309 --> 00:05:38,928 Speaker 1: take a course within the first three months of entering 117 00:05:38,940 --> 00:05:41,630 Speaker 1: the country, something like that. I would do it even 118 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:43,859 Speaker 1: if there's no requirement because if I were in a 119 00:05:43,869 --> 00:05:46,179 Speaker 1: foreign country, I would want to be part of it. 120 00:05:46,190 --> 00:05:47,988 Speaker 1: I want to be part of something. Yeah, but that's you. 121 00:05:48,140 --> 00:05:50,380 Speaker 1: So the concern is that many others who may not 122 00:05:50,390 --> 00:05:51,738 Speaker 1: think like you who may want to be in the 123 00:05:51,750 --> 00:05:54,459 Speaker 1: country but want to continue to just speak in their 124 00:05:54,470 --> 00:05:54,670 Speaker 1: own 125 00:05:54,772 --> 00:05:58,092 Speaker 1: native language without integrating into the country. I think a 126 00:05:58,101 --> 00:06:00,571 Speaker 1: lot of these countries that you mentioned and they have 127 00:06:00,582 --> 00:06:04,652 Speaker 1: this language requirements, they have a more or less homogeneous 128 00:06:04,661 --> 00:06:07,131 Speaker 1: culture of sorts. And the history was like of a 129 00:06:07,141 --> 00:06:10,812 Speaker 1: certain nature that's tied also to the language. And that's 130 00:06:10,832 --> 00:06:13,182 Speaker 1: in sharp contrast to Singapore where we have from the 131 00:06:13,190 --> 00:06:16,380 Speaker 1: start been a multicultural country as pointed out earlier. And 132 00:06:16,391 --> 00:06:19,462 Speaker 1: in that sense to kind of focus on a particular language, 133 00:06:19,471 --> 00:06:22,052 Speaker 1: that language has to serve its purpose. Well, 134 00:06:22,223 --> 00:06:25,014 Speaker 1: using English is correct in a way because it does 135 00:06:25,023 --> 00:06:27,444 Speaker 1: connect across the different groups. And he has always been 136 00:06:27,454 --> 00:06:30,493 Speaker 1: the functional language in Singapore to communicate. But there's also 137 00:06:30,503 --> 00:06:33,234 Speaker 1: a lot of people who don't speak English as highlighted 138 00:06:33,243 --> 00:06:35,713 Speaker 1: earlier as well. In that sense, it becomes very problematic 139 00:06:35,723 --> 00:06:37,523 Speaker 1: if you were to have like one rule for one 140 00:06:37,533 --> 00:06:39,553 Speaker 1: group of people and another group for others, let's say 141 00:06:39,563 --> 00:06:42,414 Speaker 1: born Singaporeans, they can speak whatever they want. And then 142 00:06:42,424 --> 00:06:45,044 Speaker 1: if they can't speak English, that's ok. But for new citizens, 143 00:06:45,053 --> 00:06:47,313 Speaker 1: you have to have this rule. But I do think 144 00:06:47,324 --> 00:06:49,273 Speaker 1: that if you were to keep it a bit open 145 00:06:49,283 --> 00:06:49,574 Speaker 1: so that 146 00:06:49,675 --> 00:06:52,855 Speaker 1: English is not of that very strict R P or 147 00:06:52,865 --> 00:06:54,466 Speaker 1: you know, very standard sort or kind of kind of 148 00:06:54,476 --> 00:06:57,536 Speaker 1: English proficiency test of a high level or something that 149 00:06:57,545 --> 00:07:01,096 Speaker 1: is more basic, more functional and in that sense, already 150 00:07:01,105 --> 00:07:04,825 Speaker 1: moving to the terrain of something like singlish where you have, 151 00:07:04,835 --> 00:07:07,855 Speaker 1: you know, bits of Malay or Chinese or Haan words 152 00:07:07,865 --> 00:07:10,036 Speaker 1: all thrown in which is very much the way we 153 00:07:10,045 --> 00:07:12,215 Speaker 1: speak in Singapore, that will be fine because the thing 154 00:07:12,226 --> 00:07:14,686 Speaker 1: about using English as supposed to be using something else 155 00:07:14,696 --> 00:07:17,026 Speaker 1: like singlish something simpler is that 156 00:07:17,127 --> 00:07:20,917 Speaker 1: more entry points into communication. You could come from a 157 00:07:20,928 --> 00:07:23,178 Speaker 1: strong Malay background and you can pick up a few 158 00:07:23,187 --> 00:07:25,417 Speaker 1: English words and you can put your points across in 159 00:07:25,428 --> 00:07:27,898 Speaker 1: a way that your neighbors could understand. So I think 160 00:07:27,907 --> 00:07:30,428 Speaker 1: communication is key and we're not asking people to be 161 00:07:30,437 --> 00:07:32,937 Speaker 1: able to come and speak proper English, you know, with 162 00:07:32,947 --> 00:07:35,567 Speaker 1: a lovely accent and things like that. We had a 163 00:07:35,578 --> 00:07:37,828 Speaker 1: chat with a Singaporean. She's a mother of four and 164 00:07:37,838 --> 00:07:40,738 Speaker 1: a property agent and this is something she said. Hi. 165 00:07:40,747 --> 00:07:43,118 Speaker 1: My name is Sandra. I'm a mother of four and 166 00:07:43,127 --> 00:07:44,518 Speaker 1: I'm a real estate agent. 167 00:07:45,510 --> 00:07:49,450 Speaker 1: I think communication is really crucial. I will converse with 168 00:07:49,459 --> 00:07:53,649 Speaker 1: my clients and there is still some difficulty in trying 169 00:07:53,660 --> 00:07:57,470 Speaker 1: to put a message across. So I don't think we 170 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: need them to be super fluent. But without communication, I 171 00:08:00,609 --> 00:08:04,130 Speaker 1: think it's very difficult to have a talking point and 172 00:08:04,140 --> 00:08:05,839 Speaker 1: to understand each other better. 173 00:08:06,149 --> 00:08:09,470 Speaker 1: So what she's really referring to is a resource where 174 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,799 Speaker 1: basically language is the tool to allow you to go 175 00:08:12,809 --> 00:08:15,970 Speaker 1: about doing your daily activities. So we're not saying that 176 00:08:15,980 --> 00:08:17,829 Speaker 1: they need to pass a big test or exam just 177 00:08:17,839 --> 00:08:18,739 Speaker 1: to be able to communicate. 178 00:08:19,010 --> 00:08:21,019 Speaker 1: And the other challenge is that in some cases, foreign 179 00:08:21,029 --> 00:08:24,399 Speaker 1: spouses may not even be able to pass any of 180 00:08:24,410 --> 00:08:26,859 Speaker 1: these tests. No matter how basic they are, does that 181 00:08:26,869 --> 00:08:30,660 Speaker 1: then make it quite discriminatory? In other words, there's some 182 00:08:30,670 --> 00:08:33,010 Speaker 1: discrimination that we choose who can or cannot. What do 183 00:08:33,020 --> 00:08:35,690 Speaker 1: you think if there's a reason why this foreign spouse 184 00:08:35,700 --> 00:08:38,179 Speaker 1: has come to Singapore to support her husband who is 185 00:08:38,190 --> 00:08:42,900 Speaker 1: contributing to Singapore? I think we should be encompassing and 186 00:08:42,909 --> 00:08:46,159 Speaker 1: also welcome her because she is actually leaving her 187 00:08:46,247 --> 00:08:50,045 Speaker 1: home to be here away from her friends and family, right? 188 00:08:50,117 --> 00:08:54,216 Speaker 1: And she's supporting her spouse to contribute to Singapore. So 189 00:08:54,226 --> 00:08:56,785 Speaker 1: I would say that it is discriminatory and it's actually 190 00:08:56,796 --> 00:08:59,486 Speaker 1: not in Singapore's interest to do so. But a good 191 00:08:59,497 --> 00:09:03,546 Speaker 1: intentions enough, I mean, well, and we've seen that go 192 00:09:03,557 --> 00:09:06,176 Speaker 1: wrong so many times somebody means well, but it ends 193 00:09:06,187 --> 00:09:08,455 Speaker 1: up being a disaster and it can be abused, right? 194 00:09:08,466 --> 00:09:10,406 Speaker 1: Something like that. I mean, but I do agree in 195 00:09:10,416 --> 00:09:13,276 Speaker 1: general what you just said, we should in the sense, 196 00:09:13,484 --> 00:09:15,554 Speaker 1: bit more compassionate and I guess go by case by 197 00:09:15,564 --> 00:09:17,903 Speaker 1: case basis, you know, to see what's the reason a 198 00:09:17,914 --> 00:09:20,184 Speaker 1: certain person come in. I think if it's a spouse 199 00:09:20,193 --> 00:09:21,523 Speaker 1: and all, I mean, we have to be a bit 200 00:09:21,533 --> 00:09:24,772 Speaker 1: more open about accepting the person on a looser category, 201 00:09:24,783 --> 00:09:27,124 Speaker 1: how to bring this person in. And a way also 202 00:09:27,133 --> 00:09:29,244 Speaker 1: to assess how to do it properly. I mean, when 203 00:09:29,254 --> 00:09:31,573 Speaker 1: we talk about assessment, when we talk about test as well, 204 00:09:31,583 --> 00:09:34,093 Speaker 1: that's written and it's oral and I think, you know, 205 00:09:34,104 --> 00:09:36,984 Speaker 1: we can really not think about the written aspect. We 206 00:09:36,994 --> 00:09:40,054 Speaker 1: are really dealing with communications day by day forming relationships, 207 00:09:40,064 --> 00:09:40,583 Speaker 1: friendships and, 208 00:09:40,981 --> 00:09:43,401 Speaker 1: and that usually is on a spoken level. I mean, 209 00:09:43,410 --> 00:09:46,171 Speaker 1: I do know people who are friends who are not 210 00:09:46,181 --> 00:09:48,481 Speaker 1: yet citizens, but they can't really write English, but they 211 00:09:48,491 --> 00:09:52,770 Speaker 1: can speak incredibly well in a way. Well, English, you know, 212 00:09:52,780 --> 00:09:54,570 Speaker 1: and they are very much here for a long time, 213 00:09:54,580 --> 00:09:56,421 Speaker 1: you know, and, and in that sense, why not, you know, 214 00:09:56,431 --> 00:09:58,780 Speaker 1: people like this who have tried and failed, I guess 215 00:09:58,791 --> 00:10:00,890 Speaker 1: a few times trying to make, I guess it's also 216 00:10:00,901 --> 00:10:04,851 Speaker 1: about effort. Maybe the so called test may not necessarily 217 00:10:04,861 --> 00:10:06,611 Speaker 1: be a written test as you pointed out, but they 218 00:10:06,620 --> 00:10:07,870 Speaker 1: could come in have a 219 00:10:07,958 --> 00:10:11,107 Speaker 1: conversation with someone and that person can evaluate just whether 220 00:10:11,117 --> 00:10:14,127 Speaker 1: they know how to order food from the Hawker Center. 221 00:10:14,138 --> 00:10:16,117 Speaker 1: They know how to, you know, speak to someone at 222 00:10:16,127 --> 00:10:18,898 Speaker 1: the hospital and things like that. Our concern for this 223 00:10:18,908 --> 00:10:21,098 Speaker 1: person is applying to be a citizen. So there has 224 00:10:21,107 --> 00:10:23,718 Speaker 1: to be a lot more help than a lot less 225 00:10:23,727 --> 00:10:26,687 Speaker 1: of that kind of guarded approach to the person I think, 226 00:10:26,697 --> 00:10:28,737 Speaker 1: assess carefully. But then after they give a lot of 227 00:10:28,747 --> 00:10:32,796 Speaker 1: handy ways in which the person can assimulate better courses 228 00:10:32,807 --> 00:10:34,828 Speaker 1: that you mentioned on language courses. That could be a 229 00:10:34,838 --> 00:10:35,088 Speaker 1: good way, 230 00:10:35,534 --> 00:10:38,255 Speaker 1: but not necessarily that they have to, I guess, attain 231 00:10:38,265 --> 00:10:41,215 Speaker 1: a certain grade before, before they can be a citizen. 232 00:10:41,224 --> 00:10:44,905 Speaker 1: My experience with uh living and with people from different 233 00:10:44,914 --> 00:10:47,843 Speaker 1: communities is that number one, if it is a test 234 00:10:47,854 --> 00:10:51,775 Speaker 1: written or oral people coming from countries that are good 235 00:10:51,784 --> 00:10:54,843 Speaker 1: in tests will excel anyway. But that actually defeats the 236 00:10:54,854 --> 00:10:59,585 Speaker 1: entire purpose of assimilation asim this person into the Singapore environment. 237 00:10:59,804 --> 00:11:02,135 Speaker 1: I think it boils down to what Singapore wants in 238 00:11:02,145 --> 00:11:02,325 Speaker 1: the law 239 00:11:02,552 --> 00:11:04,841 Speaker 1: term. We are a melting pot. We want people from 240 00:11:04,851 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: different backgrounds. We are in the midst of learning different 241 00:11:07,291 --> 00:11:09,932 Speaker 1: languages so that we can be international. So I would 242 00:11:09,942 --> 00:11:12,601 Speaker 1: say that we do need to not compassionate but think 243 00:11:12,611 --> 00:11:15,361 Speaker 1: from Singapore interest. Why would we open our borders up 244 00:11:15,372 --> 00:11:17,381 Speaker 1: to so many people who do not speak English? It's 245 00:11:17,392 --> 00:11:20,891 Speaker 1: because we benefit from it. We learn different languages and 246 00:11:20,901 --> 00:11:24,242 Speaker 1: these people are bringing in resources and help and knowledge 247 00:11:24,252 --> 00:11:26,601 Speaker 1: to support us. So in a way you're saying we 248 00:11:26,611 --> 00:11:29,391 Speaker 1: choose people based on other skill sets 249 00:11:29,669 --> 00:11:32,718 Speaker 1: necessarily the language. There may be some that don't speak 250 00:11:32,729 --> 00:11:36,429 Speaker 1: the language but have much more to offer in other areas. 251 00:11:36,439 --> 00:11:40,378 Speaker 1: For example, Liqing the billionaire from Hong Kong. If if 252 00:11:40,388 --> 00:11:43,588 Speaker 1: he had to learn Cantonese to get the Hong Kong passport, 253 00:11:43,729 --> 00:11:46,468 Speaker 1: they would have lost a really, really important figure in 254 00:11:46,479 --> 00:11:49,018 Speaker 1: Hong Kong. I think we do need to go back 255 00:11:49,028 --> 00:11:51,799 Speaker 1: to the core on what does it mean to be Singaporean. 256 00:11:51,809 --> 00:11:53,809 Speaker 1: And I think there's already a lot of tests or me. 257 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:56,478 Speaker 1: Are you married? Do you have a job 258 00:11:56,905 --> 00:11:59,716 Speaker 1: is your education is already there. We just love test 259 00:11:59,726 --> 00:12:02,135 Speaker 1: and I'm not, I'm not comfortable with points that are 260 00:12:02,145 --> 00:12:04,276 Speaker 1: raised it to a certain degree. I mean, one is 261 00:12:04,285 --> 00:12:07,905 Speaker 1: the means of assessment that suggested that economic reasons kind 262 00:12:07,916 --> 00:12:10,515 Speaker 1: of outweigh the other reasons. I'm not entirely sure that's 263 00:12:10,526 --> 00:12:12,675 Speaker 1: the way to think about citizenship that we only get 264 00:12:12,684 --> 00:12:15,716 Speaker 1: someone who is economically in a sense useful to the country. 265 00:12:15,765 --> 00:12:18,875 Speaker 1: Singapore has always been thinking about issues that relates to 266 00:12:18,885 --> 00:12:21,585 Speaker 1: humanity in terms of use. And I think citizenship should 267 00:12:21,596 --> 00:12:23,655 Speaker 1: be one of the things that we should do less 268 00:12:23,666 --> 00:12:24,056 Speaker 1: to that. 269 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:26,340 Speaker 1: I think the whole idea is also to think about 270 00:12:26,349 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 1: the person, how the person will be living here if 271 00:12:28,690 --> 00:12:30,479 Speaker 1: it's going to be a person that's living mostly in 272 00:12:30,489 --> 00:12:33,450 Speaker 1: isolation or in offices and all that, that might be 273 00:12:33,460 --> 00:12:35,359 Speaker 1: a different category as someone who have to live all 274 00:12:35,369 --> 00:12:39,450 Speaker 1: the time among Singaporeans, among ordinary Singaporeans are having to communicate. 275 00:12:39,460 --> 00:12:42,190 Speaker 1: We have to really think seriously about the language requirement, 276 00:12:42,359 --> 00:12:45,630 Speaker 1: but language isn't the only way to integrate into a country. 277 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:46,750 Speaker 1: There are many other ways to do so. 278 00:12:46,844 --> 00:12:49,864 Speaker 1: And if you have a resource that will allow you 279 00:12:49,875 --> 00:12:53,034 Speaker 1: to integrate more easily without you having to learn the language. 280 00:12:53,044 --> 00:12:56,094 Speaker 1: Why not? OK. Well, let's come back. Language is just 281 00:12:56,104 --> 00:12:58,853 Speaker 1: one of the requirements. I think as you look through, 282 00:12:58,864 --> 00:13:00,604 Speaker 1: there are many other things they ask you and it's 283 00:13:00,614 --> 00:13:02,973 Speaker 1: kind of a point system. So most countries do that. 284 00:13:03,294 --> 00:13:05,695 Speaker 1: But the flipside argument is that some people are concerned 285 00:13:05,705 --> 00:13:08,044 Speaker 1: that if I allow people who don't speak the language 286 00:13:08,054 --> 00:13:09,354 Speaker 1: to come into the country, 287 00:13:09,619 --> 00:13:12,270 Speaker 1: will there be enclaves of their own will that just 288 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:16,590 Speaker 1: be them living among themselves without wanting to venture out 289 00:13:16,599 --> 00:13:19,190 Speaker 1: and speak to others because they can't speak to others. 290 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,429 Speaker 1: So there is that concern too. I think Singapore is 291 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:25,069 Speaker 1: doing a really, really good job to try to pull 292 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,909 Speaker 1: these people out and it's not just new citizens, right? Or, 293 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:28,609 Speaker 1: or it's also 294 00:13:28,690 --> 00:13:32,659 Speaker 1: our existing older folks who are not integrated into the society. 295 00:13:32,669 --> 00:13:35,309 Speaker 1: Singapore has launched lots of campaigns like ha and you 296 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:38,130 Speaker 1: have four languages on the M RT. There are a 297 00:13:38,140 --> 00:13:41,979 Speaker 1: lot of efforts to make this a very immersive society. 298 00:13:42,070 --> 00:13:43,358 Speaker 1: But at the same time, we're not going to say 299 00:13:43,369 --> 00:13:47,270 Speaker 1: you got to take a Cantonese exam to come in. Yes, exactly. Yeah. 300 00:13:51,340 --> 00:13:55,169 Speaker 1: He's Singaporeans. So he claims to have a Korean father 301 00:13:55,179 --> 00:13:56,669 Speaker 1: who is very rich. 302 00:13:57,469 --> 00:14:02,039 Speaker 1: He promised my daughter she will make a wealthy lady. 303 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:07,710 Speaker 1: This case stands out in terms of the audacious ways 304 00:14:07,719 --> 00:14:09,890 Speaker 1: that Jaro went about to cheat. 305 00:14:13,979 --> 00:14:18,969 Speaker 1: This is the story of Singapore's most prolific scammer hear 306 00:14:18,979 --> 00:14:22,340 Speaker 1: how he managed to charm his victims into believing his 307 00:14:22,349 --> 00:14:26,030 Speaker 1: lies and we meet him in prison where he tells 308 00:14:26,039 --> 00:14:29,849 Speaker 1: us his side of the story. Join me, Tiffany Ang 309 00:14:29,859 --> 00:14:34,150 Speaker 1: on this two part podcast special, the serial Swindler, the 310 00:14:34,159 --> 00:14:37,489 Speaker 1: podcast drops in April and it will be available on 311 00:14:37,500 --> 00:14:40,989 Speaker 1: the C N A and me listen, apps, Spotify and 312 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:42,929 Speaker 1: Apple and Google podcasts. 313 00:14:46,090 --> 00:14:49,809 Speaker 1: This language requirement then. So how significant is it in 314 00:14:49,820 --> 00:14:52,940 Speaker 1: helping one integrate into the country they are moving into? 315 00:14:52,950 --> 00:14:55,659 Speaker 1: It is very important even if you don't have it 316 00:14:55,669 --> 00:14:59,179 Speaker 1: as a criteria for citizenship that the person will face 317 00:14:59,190 --> 00:15:02,059 Speaker 1: this as a fundamental issue of day to day life. 318 00:15:02,070 --> 00:15:04,210 Speaker 1: So in a sense, it's either something you face earlier 319 00:15:04,219 --> 00:15:06,460 Speaker 1: or something you face later. And that's why, I mean, 320 00:15:06,469 --> 00:15:08,099 Speaker 1: if the requirement is put there, it ought to be 321 00:15:08,109 --> 00:15:10,700 Speaker 1: a way to help the person as opposed to something 322 00:15:10,710 --> 00:15:13,260 Speaker 1: that is a barrier to the person. Ah OK. 323 00:15:13,510 --> 00:15:15,799 Speaker 1: So again, it's about saying if you want to come 324 00:15:15,809 --> 00:15:17,250 Speaker 1: in and you're willing to learn the language, I will 325 00:15:17,260 --> 00:15:19,950 Speaker 1: help you. Yes. Right. Because I feel that learning the 326 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,059 Speaker 1: language is important to help you integrate into my country. Yes. 327 00:15:23,179 --> 00:15:25,349 Speaker 1: And if the person tends to speak more Mandarin or 328 00:15:25,359 --> 00:15:27,849 Speaker 1: speak more Malay or, or, or something like this, but 329 00:15:27,859 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: it is willing to learn certain English to kind of 330 00:15:29,650 --> 00:15:31,549 Speaker 1: put together with these other languages as a way to 331 00:15:31,559 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: communicate with someone that may not know that specific language 332 00:15:34,969 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: that he or she speaks. That is fine. So even 333 00:15:37,330 --> 00:15:38,500 Speaker 1: if they come in and three 334 00:15:38,585 --> 00:15:41,606 Speaker 1: months later, six months later, two years later, they still 335 00:15:41,616 --> 00:15:44,145 Speaker 1: can't speak a word of English. That's OK. I know, 336 00:15:44,156 --> 00:15:46,366 Speaker 1: I mean that they ought to be guided to learn 337 00:15:46,375 --> 00:15:49,036 Speaker 1: English language aspects of that, that can be integrated into 338 00:15:49,046 --> 00:15:51,245 Speaker 1: the way they speak, that they can then use as 339 00:15:51,255 --> 00:15:53,916 Speaker 1: a way to express themselves. Yeah. But we are assuming 340 00:15:53,926 --> 00:15:56,616 Speaker 1: that these people want to also learn the language. There 341 00:15:56,625 --> 00:15:58,505 Speaker 1: are some cases where people move to the country and 342 00:15:58,515 --> 00:16:00,796 Speaker 1: they don't want to be kind of integrated to a 343 00:16:00,806 --> 00:16:03,026 Speaker 1: certain extent, they want to kind of just do their 344 00:16:03,036 --> 00:16:03,575 Speaker 1: own thing in the 345 00:16:03,661 --> 00:16:07,101 Speaker 1: country. I think it's actually human nature to try to 346 00:16:07,111 --> 00:16:09,711 Speaker 1: find something which you are comfortable with. And this is 347 00:16:09,721 --> 00:16:11,661 Speaker 1: what new people will want to do even before they 348 00:16:11,671 --> 00:16:15,421 Speaker 1: become a citizen, right? The thing is basically, ultimately, it 349 00:16:15,432 --> 00:16:17,901 Speaker 1: depends back to the point. How much do you want 350 00:16:17,911 --> 00:16:19,062 Speaker 1: to be in Singapore? How much do you want to 351 00:16:19,072 --> 00:16:22,271 Speaker 1: be integrated? And do I have a spouse? Is this 352 00:16:22,281 --> 00:16:24,210 Speaker 1: the reason why I'm here and people will make an 353 00:16:24,221 --> 00:16:26,841 Speaker 1: effort to be part of something fun, right? So you 354 00:16:26,851 --> 00:16:28,651 Speaker 1: have to make this fun doing a test is not fun. 355 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:30,820 Speaker 1: I think this is something that Singapore is trying to 356 00:16:30,830 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: get its head around. So, so this has been touched on. 357 00:16:33,330 --> 00:16:35,929 Speaker 1: So again, you know, had made this point in parliament, 358 00:16:35,940 --> 00:16:38,909 Speaker 1: he said the point is not to make things difficult 359 00:16:38,919 --> 00:16:42,450 Speaker 1: but to see out those who just want the Singapore passport, 360 00:16:42,559 --> 00:16:44,849 Speaker 1: the clean and safe place to park their wealth, but 361 00:16:44,859 --> 00:16:48,890 Speaker 1: otherwise quite uninterested to be a part of society. If 362 00:16:48,900 --> 00:16:51,950 Speaker 1: I can just make a statement that anybody who has 363 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,570 Speaker 1: wealth to park will speak good English. 364 00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:01,210 Speaker 1: Not necessarily, you just mentioned uh the Chinese billionaire, not necessarily, 365 00:17:01,219 --> 00:17:03,010 Speaker 1: but I think he or she will be able to 366 00:17:03,020 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 1: get past whatever test you put in front of him 367 00:17:05,369 --> 00:17:05,969 Speaker 1: or her 368 00:17:06,239 --> 00:17:09,649 Speaker 1: because they have the resources, they have the intelligence, right? Yeah, 369 00:17:09,660 --> 00:17:11,900 Speaker 1: but the question here is what's raised earlier, right? I mean, 370 00:17:11,910 --> 00:17:14,319 Speaker 1: there has to be more than just the economic imperative 371 00:17:14,329 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 1: or whatever to, to belong to a place and also 372 00:17:17,130 --> 00:17:19,219 Speaker 1: to come to Singapore has to be a bit more 373 00:17:19,229 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: than that. What do you know about Singapore? How do 374 00:17:21,290 --> 00:17:23,609 Speaker 1: you feel about the people that should in a sense 375 00:17:23,619 --> 00:17:26,510 Speaker 1: very much inform the decision to be a Singapore? I agree. 376 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:29,869 Speaker 1: And that doesn't rely on language alone. Yeah, we would 377 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:31,290 Speaker 1: love to have a few English 378 00:17:31,469 --> 00:17:33,589 Speaker 1: versions. Like, tell us, how do you order food at 379 00:17:33,599 --> 00:17:38,089 Speaker 1: the Hawker Center in English? Not necessary. You have to 380 00:17:38,099 --> 00:17:39,719 Speaker 1: say it in English because I think that word is 381 00:17:39,729 --> 00:17:41,530 Speaker 1: quite loaded these days. You know, once you say it, 382 00:17:41,540 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 1: a lot of people get triggered, but a lot of 383 00:17:43,209 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: people don't realize when they think English they're actually thinking 384 00:17:46,050 --> 00:17:48,669 Speaker 1: in much singlish, you know, they're not thinking about the 385 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:51,629 Speaker 1: high English. So out of 80% who say yes, I 386 00:17:51,640 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: suspect a big of them are thinking of the level 387 00:17:54,130 --> 00:17:56,459 Speaker 1: of English that is really related to singing 388 00:17:56,550 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: English. They're OK when you say a can la, can la, 389 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,438 Speaker 1: they're OK with that. And they could consider that actually 390 00:18:01,449 --> 00:18:04,310 Speaker 1: very much part of speaking ordinarily with other Singaporeans. I 391 00:18:04,319 --> 00:18:06,979 Speaker 1: just did my e learning for my Singapore citizenship. I 392 00:18:06,989 --> 00:18:09,790 Speaker 1: think singlish is a beautiful language but they, they should, 393 00:18:10,260 --> 00:18:14,250 Speaker 1: they should use singlish to do all of the e joining. 394 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,839 Speaker 1: I agree. I want to share with you another clip 395 00:18:16,849 --> 00:18:20,099 Speaker 1: from Sandra because we were talking about integration and this 396 00:18:20,109 --> 00:18:21,419 Speaker 1: is what she had to say. 397 00:18:21,689 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: Just want to know that you actually made an effort 398 00:18:25,050 --> 00:18:29,319 Speaker 1: to integrate to be part of this new community. It 399 00:18:29,329 --> 00:18:33,149 Speaker 1: should be something more holistic rather than just monetary. Even 400 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:36,979 Speaker 1: domestic helpers are required to take a simple English test 401 00:18:37,170 --> 00:18:42,239 Speaker 1: which shows how crucial communication is. So I do not 402 00:18:42,250 --> 00:18:46,699 Speaker 1: see why basic English test is a form of discrimination. 403 00:18:47,150 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 1: So Sandra again is saying that essentially let's see how 404 00:18:50,930 --> 00:18:53,290 Speaker 1: well you can communicate with us, you know, and it 405 00:18:53,300 --> 00:18:56,239 Speaker 1: just so happens is in English, is that so much 406 00:18:56,250 --> 00:18:58,579 Speaker 1: to ask for? Is that too much to ask for? 407 00:18:58,699 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 1: Is that unfair? It is not an unfair statement to 408 00:19:02,449 --> 00:19:04,569 Speaker 1: make uh when you come to a country and you 409 00:19:04,579 --> 00:19:06,949 Speaker 1: want to get the services here. If you want to 410 00:19:06,959 --> 00:19:09,530 Speaker 1: buy a property, for example, yes, you should know some 411 00:19:09,540 --> 00:19:11,780 Speaker 1: basic language to get the transaction through. 412 00:19:12,140 --> 00:19:15,250 Speaker 1: We all agree that you need a certain basic level 413 00:19:15,260 --> 00:19:17,709 Speaker 1: or basic knowledge of the language. But yet we're saying 414 00:19:17,719 --> 00:19:21,300 Speaker 1: we shouldn't have to penalize people if they don't have it. Yeah, 415 00:19:21,310 --> 00:19:24,540 Speaker 1: in a way that's my. Yeah. OK. The signal should 416 00:19:24,550 --> 00:19:27,239 Speaker 1: be sent that this is very much preferred in a 417 00:19:27,250 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: way that also should be guided along the path towards citizenship, 418 00:19:30,530 --> 00:19:32,909 Speaker 1: to help individuals in a sense, be able to be 419 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,989 Speaker 1: comfortable speaking and communicating, then maybe let's put it in 420 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:38,050 Speaker 1: two ways. So, so one is if we talk about 421 00:19:38,140 --> 00:19:42,129 Speaker 1: integration, if I ask you for integration, how important is 422 00:19:42,140 --> 00:19:44,599 Speaker 1: the language skill? If you had to rate it on 423 00:19:44,609 --> 00:19:47,229 Speaker 1: a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being very important, 424 00:19:47,239 --> 00:19:50,329 Speaker 1: how important would you rate being able to speak English 425 00:19:50,339 --> 00:19:57,189 Speaker 1: in a country like Singapore integration? I would say 67, OK, 426 00:19:57,260 --> 00:20:02,140 Speaker 1: 67 as well. OK. So minister said how there should 427 00:20:02,150 --> 00:20:04,050 Speaker 1: be other marketers for Integration 428 00:20:04,439 --> 00:20:07,879 Speaker 1: National Service for instance, or an applicant's family ties to 429 00:20:07,890 --> 00:20:12,180 Speaker 1: Singapore other ways of seeing whether people can fit in 430 00:20:12,189 --> 00:20:14,300 Speaker 1: so to speak. If you do National Service and all 431 00:20:14,310 --> 00:20:16,630 Speaker 1: automatically the language skills will all come in. You know, 432 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:21,550 Speaker 1: you pick up some English, some Hawking, some Malay, definitely 433 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,510 Speaker 1: everything is conducted in English anyway in the C F, 434 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:26,589 Speaker 1: you know. So in a sense that's kind of like 435 00:20:26,599 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: not really answering the question but in some ways already 436 00:20:29,810 --> 00:20:33,310 Speaker 1: embedded into these requirements, I would say that um to 437 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:33,430 Speaker 1: turn 438 00:20:33,532 --> 00:20:36,072 Speaker 1: around, it's not really they learn the language, but they 439 00:20:36,083 --> 00:20:39,983 Speaker 1: appreciate the culture that is then communicated via this language. 440 00:20:39,993 --> 00:20:41,483 Speaker 1: And this is what we are looking for when we 441 00:20:41,493 --> 00:20:44,432 Speaker 1: actually look, seeing who would be a good fit culture. 442 00:20:44,892 --> 00:20:47,172 Speaker 1: I mean, it really is about providing these people with 443 00:20:47,182 --> 00:20:49,733 Speaker 1: a resource that will help them live here in our country. 444 00:20:49,743 --> 00:20:51,802 Speaker 1: That's kind of what we see. Right. Yeah, that's a 445 00:20:51,811 --> 00:20:53,522 Speaker 1: good point because I think that we keep going on 446 00:20:53,532 --> 00:20:56,402 Speaker 1: on this language thinking that, you know, if they don't 447 00:20:56,412 --> 00:20:58,912 Speaker 1: acquire it, they will be isolated, they will, you know, 448 00:20:58,922 --> 00:21:01,343 Speaker 1: go to their own enclaves, they will disappear into those 449 00:21:01,353 --> 00:21:02,512 Speaker 1: spaces and never integrate it 450 00:21:02,605 --> 00:21:05,355 Speaker 1: other Singaporeans. But the point is that if those avenues 451 00:21:05,365 --> 00:21:07,815 Speaker 1: in which they can appreciate the culture become part of 452 00:21:07,826 --> 00:21:10,825 Speaker 1: Singaporean is there, I mean, we don't have to worry 453 00:21:10,836 --> 00:21:13,686 Speaker 1: about the language, the language comes with these things. That's right. 454 00:21:13,696 --> 00:21:17,145 Speaker 1: In order to appreciate what those experiences, you will end 455 00:21:17,156 --> 00:21:20,225 Speaker 1: up having to understand the language. If a person goes 456 00:21:20,234 --> 00:21:22,446 Speaker 1: to eat at a Hawker Center every day, I cannot 457 00:21:22,455 --> 00:21:26,066 Speaker 1: believe that person will not pick up some form of communication, 458 00:21:26,076 --> 00:21:29,295 Speaker 1: communication skills to Singaporeans. OK. Then if we had to 459 00:21:29,306 --> 00:21:31,595 Speaker 1: read language in terms of communication 460 00:21:31,910 --> 00:21:34,739 Speaker 1: and living in Singapore, how important would it be for 461 00:21:34,750 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: a new citizen? The scale of 1 to 10, maybe 462 00:21:37,810 --> 00:21:42,670 Speaker 1: 5 to 6 because Singapore is so multicultural and Multilingual, 463 00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 1: so less so than integration. OK. Yeah. Yeah. That same, 464 00:21:46,650 --> 00:21:50,099 Speaker 1: same and, and to that point. I have seen lots 465 00:21:50,109 --> 00:21:52,839 Speaker 1: of people who speak really good English, right. Really good English. 466 00:21:52,849 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: And they don't assimulate, they don't integrate. That's correct. 467 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:57,609 Speaker 1: Kind of Singaporeans also as well. You know, their English 468 00:21:57,619 --> 00:21:59,719 Speaker 1: schools are incredible and they spend all the time working 469 00:21:59,729 --> 00:22:04,260 Speaker 1: English and they only eat sandwiches and don't go to 470 00:22:04,270 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 1: a Hawker Center there. So this should be a culture 471 00:22:08,170 --> 00:22:12,300 Speaker 1: discussion or a language. OK. Entirely agree. So you would 472 00:22:12,310 --> 00:22:15,149 Speaker 1: agree then with what Nelson Mandela once said, if you 473 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,859 Speaker 1: talk to a man in a language, he understands that 474 00:22:17,869 --> 00:22:19,010 Speaker 1: goes to his head. 475 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,770 Speaker 1: If you talk to him in his language, that goes 476 00:22:22,780 --> 00:22:26,139 Speaker 1: to his heart. So although we're saying both, you know, 477 00:22:26,150 --> 00:22:29,469 Speaker 1: we're saying if you speak the language English, they understand it. 478 00:22:29,479 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: But at the same time, it will also have an 479 00:22:31,530 --> 00:22:33,010 Speaker 1: emotional impact on them. 480 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,619 Speaker 1: So you, as you decided rather that you wanted to 481 00:22:35,630 --> 00:22:37,819 Speaker 1: be a citizen here. What do you think are fair 482 00:22:37,829 --> 00:22:40,500 Speaker 1: request from a country to be a citizen? Yeah, what 483 00:22:40,510 --> 00:22:42,930 Speaker 1: would you feel was an unfair request if Singapore had 484 00:22:42,939 --> 00:22:45,609 Speaker 1: put in the citizenship test? You know that you must 485 00:22:45,619 --> 00:22:48,849 Speaker 1: be able to OK, for me, even though I think 486 00:22:48,859 --> 00:22:52,420 Speaker 1: I do speak good English, I don't. Thank you. Thank you. 487 00:22:52,650 --> 00:22:57,619 Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you. I think asking me to do 488 00:22:57,630 --> 00:23:00,540 Speaker 1: an English test. I would be disappointed because you're not 489 00:23:00,550 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: looking at me as a whole 490 00:23:01,900 --> 00:23:05,149 Speaker 1: person and meritocracy. But I think you should look at 491 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,198 Speaker 1: me and what I can contribute to the country, what 492 00:23:07,209 --> 00:23:10,380 Speaker 1: is my ties that would be more meaningful? You know, Steve, 493 00:23:10,390 --> 00:23:12,030 Speaker 1: I got a nagging worry. I mean that, you know, 494 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,630 Speaker 1: we're tending towards agreeing towards conformity of sorts. We should 495 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: also be wary of them, you know, to reach a 496 00:23:17,810 --> 00:23:21,099 Speaker 1: level where even linguistically speaking, we are talking about something 497 00:23:21,109 --> 00:23:24,770 Speaker 1: very standard and then we don't actually organically engage language 498 00:23:24,780 --> 00:23:27,050 Speaker 1: and think that, you know, whatever background we come from, 499 00:23:27,060 --> 00:23:29,129 Speaker 1: we are actually also contributing to the way we speak 500 00:23:29,140 --> 00:23:29,790 Speaker 1: in Singapore 501 00:23:30,079 --> 00:23:32,020 Speaker 1: sense. I think someone from a different country or from 502 00:23:32,030 --> 00:23:33,849 Speaker 1: a different culture when it comes to Singapore, even though 503 00:23:33,859 --> 00:23:36,489 Speaker 1: they are learning English or singlish, you know, they are 504 00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:39,589 Speaker 1: also in a way organically contributing to how that language 505 00:23:39,599 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 1: is used in Singapore. Just thinking 10 years time, how 506 00:23:43,170 --> 00:23:45,739 Speaker 1: how we speak in Singapore. I hope it changes, you know, 507 00:23:45,750 --> 00:23:48,060 Speaker 1: I mean the way we speak now or maybe it's 508 00:23:48,069 --> 00:23:51,050 Speaker 1: certain changes, changes in the in terms of the words 509 00:23:51,060 --> 00:23:53,849 Speaker 1: we use the ideas we are trying to communicate. It's 510 00:23:53,859 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 1: different from how we are thinking. Now. If we look 511 00:23:55,930 --> 00:23:57,849 Speaker 1: at singlish, for example, I mean, the way we talked 512 00:23:57,859 --> 00:23:58,270 Speaker 1: about it 513 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,130 Speaker 1: 20 years ago and 40 years ago, it's different. The 514 00:24:01,140 --> 00:24:03,410 Speaker 1: language has changed. I mean, we may not realize this. 515 00:24:03,420 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: But if you look at clips and you look at 516 00:24:05,569 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 1: a literature and for example, you do see that there's 517 00:24:07,530 --> 00:24:11,010 Speaker 1: a shift in the way we communicate, certain words drop out, 518 00:24:11,020 --> 00:24:13,429 Speaker 1: certain words are included and they become the way we 519 00:24:13,439 --> 00:24:17,569 Speaker 1: talk about things. I mean, words like has been around forever, right? 520 00:24:17,579 --> 00:24:20,469 Speaker 1: But certain words, you know, like they are, they are, 521 00:24:21,170 --> 00:24:23,930 Speaker 1: you know, like 2030 2030 years ago, nobody used that. 522 00:24:24,079 --> 00:24:26,550 Speaker 1: We have to be open to the language itself changing. 523 00:24:26,819 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, language is constantly evolving. Although one could also argue 524 00:24:30,290 --> 00:24:33,989 Speaker 1: that perhaps we could increase our vocabulary of English for instance, 525 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 1: and use better descriptive words rather than just OK. OK. 526 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:41,979 Speaker 1: Can work for a lot of things. Why not just 527 00:24:41,989 --> 00:24:46,270 Speaker 1: increase level of, are you talking about as it? Fantastic, amazing, 528 00:24:46,569 --> 00:24:49,150 Speaker 1: just maybe nice, you know, 529 00:24:49,483 --> 00:24:54,302 Speaker 1: another session. But but the point, the point I'm making 530 00:24:54,311 --> 00:24:56,272 Speaker 1: is that, you know, someone, we keep thinking about someone 531 00:24:56,282 --> 00:24:58,662 Speaker 1: coming to our Singapore and then needing to conform to 532 00:24:58,672 --> 00:25:01,182 Speaker 1: the way we speak here. But actually, we also should 533 00:25:01,192 --> 00:25:03,902 Speaker 1: be as citizens or Singaporeans be open to the idea 534 00:25:03,912 --> 00:25:06,753 Speaker 1: that what this person bring linguistically to us is actually 535 00:25:06,762 --> 00:25:09,633 Speaker 1: valuable as well. Wow, that's a very good point. I agree. 536 00:25:09,782 --> 00:25:12,012 Speaker 1: So in a way, they are also bringing their 537 00:25:12,145 --> 00:25:15,046 Speaker 1: culture into our country and and bringing the way they speak. 538 00:25:15,056 --> 00:25:16,865 Speaker 1: So in a way, if they are able to communicate 539 00:25:16,875 --> 00:25:19,795 Speaker 1: with Singaporeans, they can also influence the way we speak 540 00:25:19,806 --> 00:25:22,494 Speaker 1: and change the way we speak productively to be able 541 00:25:22,505 --> 00:25:26,235 Speaker 1: to include more linguistic or nuances that exist around the world. 542 00:25:26,244 --> 00:25:28,836 Speaker 1: So as we conclude, it seems like we're kind of 543 00:25:28,845 --> 00:25:30,635 Speaker 1: in agreement. But if I ask you to wrap up 544 00:25:30,645 --> 00:25:32,995 Speaker 1: your thoughts in terms of at the end of the day, 545 00:25:33,005 --> 00:25:34,676 Speaker 1: how do you feel about this? Should, 546 00:25:35,209 --> 00:25:37,709 Speaker 1: yeah, those new citizens coming to our country, would you 547 00:25:37,719 --> 00:25:40,179 Speaker 1: ask them to take a test? If not, what, then 548 00:25:40,189 --> 00:25:42,260 Speaker 1: what would you like to see 549 00:25:42,619 --> 00:25:45,260 Speaker 1: in terms of how we approach this issue? My point 550 00:25:45,270 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: of view is that we are requiring people to take 551 00:25:47,930 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 1: a test anyway to become citizens. But this should be 552 00:25:50,650 --> 00:25:53,839 Speaker 1: a test on culture, your loyalty to this new country 553 00:25:53,910 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: and whether or not you will love this country the 554 00:25:56,369 --> 00:25:58,489 Speaker 1: way you love your previous country. I think that's the 555 00:25:58,500 --> 00:26:00,649 Speaker 1: most important part. That's the test that we should to 556 00:26:00,660 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 1: get everybody to do. It reminds me of one time 557 00:26:03,170 --> 00:26:05,640 Speaker 1: one school, you know, when they are taking in students 558 00:26:05,890 --> 00:26:07,869 Speaker 1: who don't have the grades they ask, you know, the 559 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:08,660 Speaker 1: school song 560 00:26:10,089 --> 00:26:14,208 Speaker 1: passion. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. That's great. Um, well, 561 00:26:14,219 --> 00:26:16,530 Speaker 1: for myself, I think it's still the same. I do 562 00:26:16,540 --> 00:26:19,420 Speaker 1: feel like, you know, I have no strong passion either way, 563 00:26:19,430 --> 00:26:21,569 Speaker 1: any position that we take as long as you don't 564 00:26:21,579 --> 00:26:24,089 Speaker 1: do it stupidly, you know, and buy the book. We 565 00:26:24,099 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: are open to, you know, 566 00:26:25,479 --> 00:26:28,400 Speaker 1: exceptions. We are open to how different people come with 567 00:26:28,410 --> 00:26:32,180 Speaker 1: different backgrounds and expectations and how actually in Singaporeans, we 568 00:26:32,189 --> 00:26:34,270 Speaker 1: also ought to, you know, just not think about what 569 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,199 Speaker 1: they can do for us, but what we can also 570 00:26:36,209 --> 00:26:38,738 Speaker 1: do for them, that's a good point. That's something for 571 00:26:38,750 --> 00:26:40,319 Speaker 1: us to think about, I think because we are very 572 00:26:40,329 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 1: often very rules driven here in Singapore. You know, we 573 00:26:43,410 --> 00:26:44,859 Speaker 1: go through a checklist, we want to tick all the 574 00:26:44,869 --> 00:26:47,209 Speaker 1: boxes before we let you in. But if we allow 575 00:26:47,219 --> 00:26:49,390 Speaker 1: ourselves to say that, hey, maybe it's not just about 576 00:26:49,459 --> 00:26:52,159 Speaker 1: us giving to you, but we also gain when you 577 00:26:52,170 --> 00:26:53,149 Speaker 1: come and join us. 578 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,449 Speaker 1: So thank you very much, both of you for coming 579 00:26:55,459 --> 00:26:57,530 Speaker 1: and sharing your thoughts with us. I mean, what are 580 00:26:57,540 --> 00:27:00,169 Speaker 1: the factors that get to decide whether someone comes into 581 00:27:00,180 --> 00:27:02,540 Speaker 1: the country or not? Should the language of the country 582 00:27:02,550 --> 00:27:05,379 Speaker 1: be one of those considerations? I mean, these are discussions 583 00:27:05,390 --> 00:27:07,410 Speaker 1: that we could have for a long time or is 584 00:27:07,420 --> 00:27:10,899 Speaker 1: it better to talk about military service? Chili crab are 585 00:27:10,910 --> 00:27:14,030 Speaker 1: those better tools of integration? I don't know, they have 586 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:20,390 Speaker 1: to like, OK, that could be a bit more. So 587 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:21,910 Speaker 1: from our discussion, I think we 588 00:27:21,989 --> 00:27:24,629 Speaker 1: agree that communication is key and I think if you 589 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 1: know the language will help people, that is the main 590 00:27:26,689 --> 00:27:30,420 Speaker 1: point here. But perhaps it's time we consider how we 591 00:27:30,430 --> 00:27:32,959 Speaker 1: get to that final point, whether it's for them to 592 00:27:32,969 --> 00:27:34,510 Speaker 1: take a test or whether it's for them to come 593 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,020 Speaker 1: and learn the language while they reside here in the country. 594 00:27:37,270 --> 00:27:39,920 Speaker 1: I think we leave you, you are our listeners with 595 00:27:39,930 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: those thoughts on that note. I want to say thanks 596 00:27:42,369 --> 00:27:44,629 Speaker 1: so much for listening in and we do love to 597 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,479 Speaker 1: hear from you. So anytime just drop us a note 598 00:27:46,489 --> 00:27:49,699 Speaker 1: and of course, like and share this podcast as well. 599 00:27:49,979 --> 00:27:53,219 Speaker 1: The team behind it is Jack Chan, Joan Chan Tiffany 600 00:27:53,229 --> 00:27:56,540 Speaker 1: Ang and Christina Robert. Of course, you can find us 601 00:27:56,550 --> 00:27:58,209 Speaker 1: on the C N A app or wherever you get 602 00:27:58,219 --> 00:28:02,170 Speaker 1: your podcasts, hit that follow button to be notified whenever 603 00:28:02,180 --> 00:28:06,020 Speaker 1: a new episode drops. Till next time. I'm Steven CIA. 604 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:07,069 Speaker 1: Bye for now.