Speaker 1: the following is a CNN a
Speaker 2: podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm
Speaker 1: Jamie Hello and thanks for listening to climate conversations today.
Speaker 1: We're talking about an edible vegetable oil that comes from
Speaker 1: the fruit of a palm oil tree. Palm oil. It's
Speaker 1: so versatile that is found in close to 50% of
Speaker 1: packaged foods found in
Speaker 2: supermarket,
Speaker 2: everything
Speaker 1: from chips to ice cream, soap to shampoo contains some
Speaker 1: form of power oil and precisely because it is such
Speaker 1: an efficient, versatile crop. Swathes of land have been cleared
Speaker 1: to make way for plantations leading to deforestation on a
Speaker 1: massive scale, particularly in Indonesia Malaysia, which account for over 80%
Speaker 1: of global supply, like all sectors, this one needs to
Speaker 1: confront the growing pressures to become sustainable. But can it,
Speaker 1: what would it look like? Especially when millions of farmers
Speaker 1: earn a living from palm oil production with me today
Speaker 1: is Olivia T sheet,
Speaker 1: he's the director of Sustainable supply chain and muslim Mas,
Speaker 1: the global palm oil company based in Singapore. Olivier is
Speaker 1: active in the roundtable on sustainable palm oil and the
Speaker 1: high carbon stock approach and Palm oil Innovation Group
Speaker 1: Olivier. Welcome.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much jane. Good to be on this podcast.
Speaker 1: Thanks let me get into the first question just to
Speaker 1: set the stage for us, not many of us know
Speaker 1: just how important the palm oil industry is and the
Speaker 1: range of products we can find
Speaker 1: palm oil in. Perhaps. Therefore you can start us off
Speaker 1: by giving us a sense of exactly what we're dealing
Speaker 1: with the demand for this product and more importantly, you know,
Speaker 1: the historical impact that it has had on the environment
Speaker 1: over all these years since it became such an important
Speaker 1: product in global commerce.
Speaker 2: Well, that would take a good, our our good more
Speaker 2: than half an hour to say what products, that's the
Speaker 2: beauty of it is found in everything. For example, if
Speaker 2: you use a hand sanitizer these days, maybe a lot.
Speaker 2: It is the glittering as well. You will find it
Speaker 2: in shampoos, in toothpaste. Uh you'll find it in many, many,
Speaker 2: many things. You might find it a lot of course
Speaker 2: in your food.
Speaker 2: Tom is an extremely versatile product oil. The red oil
Speaker 2: and the white oil. There's toils in relative how important
Speaker 2: is it today? Today? It's important not only because of
Speaker 2: the share it has taken in the vegetable oil production
Speaker 2: in the world and in the traded vegetable oil, but
Speaker 2: also because looking forward with an increasing world population will
Speaker 2: need no vegetable oil.
Speaker 2: And paul is quite uniquely suited to do that to
Speaker 2: correspond to that increased demand. Why? Because it's got an
Speaker 2: incredible heel protector, it's unbeatable and the next best vegetable
Speaker 2: oil is 10 times less productive protector. That's the difficulty
Speaker 2: with part if you want pam has to say, we
Speaker 2: want to have less deforestation when we need no power.
Speaker 2: So it will be difficult for some people to understand.
Speaker 2: I suspect what has been the impact. Look, there's two impacts.
Speaker 2: So the environmental impact, some deforestation will have been caused
Speaker 2: by power. That's a fact. We can't go around that
Speaker 2: a lot of deforestation has been caused by logging in particular.
Speaker 2: What happens after living is a different story. It's not
Speaker 2: because
Speaker 2: an area of forest was lost and that a couple
Speaker 2: of years later you find harmony that palm cause the
Speaker 2: deforestation part might have been a secondary effect. That's one,
Speaker 2: there's another impact we shouldn't forget, it's the social impact
Speaker 2: of talent and so they are
Speaker 2: some bad stories about town. But let's look elsewhere, the
Speaker 2: millions of snow holders in Indonesia and Malaysia
Speaker 2: and Thailand to just keep the region and also be
Speaker 2: the Philippines
Speaker 2: who are making a very good living because of town
Speaker 2: and that's the balance of power. There has been some
Speaker 2: problems with, found there might be some problems with pound,
Speaker 2: but there's also a massive positive social impact of power
Speaker 2: and it has to continue improving in reality. And that's
Speaker 2: something I'm so I'm sure we'll talk about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. We'll talk about the small scale holders and
Speaker 1: things like that. But the reality then is however, the
Speaker 1: entire industry, Palm Oil does have a particularly bad reputation
Speaker 1: if I may say so in terms of its record
Speaker 1: on deforestation on sustainability? I suspect obviously the industry wants
Speaker 1: to make a change.
Speaker 1: But do you think there's been enough recognition of the
Speaker 1: not so good effects that it has had in the
Speaker 1: explosion of demand and in meeting this demand globally, that,
Speaker 1: you know, some of the practices may have been bad
Speaker 1: practices may have been established already
Speaker 2: Now, industry is a big industry. So you have, you
Speaker 2: have a variety of players on the one hand, you
Speaker 2: have one section of the industry and today it's about 20%
Speaker 2: of the world production which is certified. And there are
Speaker 2: global voluntary standard called the R. S. P. O. The
Speaker 2: Roundtable for sustainable palm oil.
Speaker 2: That's not an industry standard because it's a multi stakeholder
Speaker 2: stand out. So it's developed with the GeoS, it's developed
Speaker 2: with industry
Speaker 2: down street, the likes of Nestle, Unilever, Procter and Gamble
Speaker 2: over people use brands, you know, And also of course
Speaker 2: there is the plantation companies spread the demanding stand out.
Speaker 2: If you look today, it's a tough stand out. It's
Speaker 2: no deforestation. No expectations stand out quite clearly.
Speaker 2: It's uh, it's a voluntary stand up, about 20% of
Speaker 2: the world production
Speaker 2: now on the recognition of impact I think. Yeah, the
Speaker 2: priorities have shifted now. Industry is big enough that not
Speaker 2: everybody is at the same speed. But if you ask
Speaker 2: the main actors are the ones who are the most
Speaker 2: involved on most in touch with market, I would say
Speaker 2: you will find that the priority nowadays is no longer
Speaker 2: to expansion.
Speaker 2: So there will be a bit more expansion. That's that's positive.
Speaker 2: All the property. Nowadays. It's more about no deforestation. That's
Speaker 2: the priority because the industry realizes that
Speaker 2: it's accused sometimes rightfully, possibly historically, less and less correctly nowadays,
Speaker 2: because if you look at deforestation rates, they have plummeted
Speaker 2: at least in Indonesia and the industry than cannot be
Speaker 2: said to be continuing to difference the massive scale, but
Speaker 2: it's about
Speaker 2: also yield increases. How do we make even more with
Speaker 2: the land that we have now in the parliament? And
Speaker 2: if you look at what scientists are saying on an
Speaker 2: idea of breathing friends, so the breeders tell you the
Speaker 2: full potential of part has not been met so we
Speaker 2: can have even more oil per Hector with the areas
Speaker 2: already planted. And that's our challenge. Our challenge is not
Speaker 2: only on the big plantations, but also on the small farms.
Speaker 2: How do we further increases?
Speaker 2: Because we can,
Speaker 2: that's where the industry is going up.
Speaker 1: You raise many, many interesting points that we'll get to that,
Speaker 1: but maybe I'll start now on the last point that
Speaker 1: you raise about the small scale holders, right? Obviously, as
Speaker 1: you say, many of the big, major conglomerates are responsible
Speaker 1: within the entire industry, but it's said that some 40%
Speaker 1: of the world's Pamela, there's still produced by smaller scale
Speaker 1: farmers
Speaker 1: Explain to us therefore what's being done to help this 40%
Speaker 1: along the chain so that they do get into more
Speaker 1: sustainable production and what's the impetus for them to do so?
Speaker 1: And how does the overall industry help them along? And
Speaker 1: is it realistic to expect this to move sooner than
Speaker 1: everybody wants to actually, or needs
Speaker 2: to
Speaker 2: uh well, you you've put it very well there when
Speaker 2: you say, where's the impetus? What's the need for them?
Speaker 2: And that's, that's the question we always have to answer
Speaker 2: if we want to move the smallholders, smallholders, their farmers.
Speaker 2: So if you tell them guys, you could make a
Speaker 2: bigger yield out of your blocks, they're interested and they're smart,
Speaker 2: They're farmers. So they know that maybe the planting material
Speaker 2: that they have the seeds that they planted, we're not
Speaker 2: that much.
Speaker 2: So they want better seats bomb is a burial crop.
Speaker 2: The cycle is 25 years. So it's a long term crop,
Speaker 2: even from the first smolder in particular, it's a long
Speaker 2: term crop. So it's difficult to move quickly once you've
Speaker 2: planted when you married for 25 years with your pants.
Speaker 2: So you can't just cut them and replant with a
Speaker 2: new variety. So it's, it's a bit long to get
Speaker 2: change and that's a bit frustrating. Including for this. Nonetheless,
Speaker 2: that's enough has been done for smaller. So companies like us,
Speaker 2: that's like maximus, okay, we're very much into
Speaker 1: supporting
Speaker 2: smaller. Why, like I said earlier, if we want our
Speaker 2: business to continue to thrive and even to increase, we
Speaker 2: need no production and it cannot come from different station.
Speaker 2: So it will have to come from the intensification. So
Speaker 2: from the smaller, smaller, you need the state to enable.
Speaker 2: So you need very good support from the state.
Speaker 2: So the government has to be very close to the
Speaker 2: smaller so that they have the right titles
Speaker 2: so that they know that they can get land titles
Speaker 2: so they can pledge those titles or use those titles
Speaker 2: and land. There's a better value for them. But also
Speaker 2: the industry, we have to support the smolders. We have
Speaker 2: to work with the local governments because on the landscape
Speaker 2: you might have pump smolders, rather smolders, coco smolders,
Speaker 2: it's not by only working with the palm small learns
Speaker 2: that will have maximum impact.
Speaker 2: It's quite complicated that we need to go back to
Speaker 2: real basic work which is rural extension work. So how
Speaker 2: do you have agricultural of itself in the field who
Speaker 2: can give the right advice to the smaller is because
Speaker 2: like you said, what's in it for them? They have
Speaker 2: to sell value to change. So that change becomes something
Speaker 2: that they want also to adopt.
Speaker 1: So in terms of things like land clearance, then right
Speaker 1: you say that the intention is to stop all the deforestation.
Speaker 1: Do you think you are comfortable enough and governments are
Speaker 1: comfortable enough to say that enough has been said and
Speaker 1: education will continue to educate the smallholders, especially on land
Speaker 1: clearance techniques
Speaker 1: with the overall goals are not having any more deforestation
Speaker 2: there. It takes more than one to to achieve that
Speaker 2: like you said, government has a role to play government
Speaker 2: at the end of the day
Speaker 2: these the and foster law will be enforced by governments.
Speaker 2: It should not be delegated to the private sector to
Speaker 2: do so. The government has to play its role there.
Speaker 2: The instant TVs you can get land titles. The land
Speaker 2: titles have a value for the banking system, has to
Speaker 2: recognize the land titles or smaller have access to some capital,
Speaker 2: but the government has to be the enforcer on the industry.
Speaker 2: What can we do?
Speaker 2: We can make it very clear that we have the
Speaker 2: tools today to monitor deforestation. Satellite imagery is readily available.
Speaker 2: It's very quick. You can get it very, very fast
Speaker 2: as long as the cloud cover is nothing saying of course,
Speaker 2: but we can get images very fast so we can
Speaker 2: monitor the deforestation quite easily
Speaker 2: so we can make it known in our supply chains
Speaker 2: that deforestation is
Speaker 2: not allowed. We don't want fruit from deforested areas and
Speaker 2: we can monitor of that. The government being the enabler
Speaker 2: and the enforcer, the industry having to send a very
Speaker 2: clear message. Oil from deforested areas from areas which have
Speaker 2: been cleared and planted because of deforestation will not enter
Speaker 2: our supply chains. So it will have a lesser value.
Speaker 2: It will have a small smaller market that will get
Speaker 2: any smaller over time
Speaker 2: so there is no incentive to deforest and plant reaching
Speaker 2: the smaller it is the tough part they are smaller
Speaker 2: is by definition it's not the cooperation that submits a
Speaker 2: license to plant, They make their decisions based on their needs.
Speaker 2: They need to have an income.
Speaker 2: Palm is a good income for smaller because it's a
Speaker 2: regular income
Speaker 2: and then the prices can be very good and they
Speaker 2: see their neighbors who are quite successful. There's a lot
Speaker 2: of outreach to be done as the private sector through
Speaker 2: the commercial out the government, through enforcement and giving value
Speaker 2: to smaller who are compliant.
Speaker 1: Let me talk about now this concept of sustainable palm
Speaker 1: oil production, your role and muscle mass is about sustainability
Speaker 1: but dividend
Speaker 1: a little bit more into the details about what sustainable
Speaker 1: palm oil production looks like. Not just I suppose within plantations,
Speaker 1: but I would presume all of us will want to
Speaker 1: look at it throughout the entire supply chain from the
Speaker 1: farm to the table or to your hand sanitizer. As
Speaker 1: you say, what does it look like? And what can
Speaker 1: the customer
Speaker 1: consumer do? Do you know, do you think that they
Speaker 1: know enough about what sustainable palm oil looks like and
Speaker 1: what it entails and ultimately also in the longer run.
Speaker 1: It's also a matter about cost as well, isn't it?
Speaker 2: The consumer is, is a tough choice, their their stuff
Speaker 2: and stuff saying
Speaker 2: because the consumer, the only way the consumer will see
Speaker 2: palm oil alone, let's say will be included in all
Speaker 2: the rest of the time
Speaker 2: time will be one of many ingredients like maybe a
Speaker 2: small ingredient might just be the foaming agent in your shampoo.
Speaker 2: It may be only the glycerin, like we said in
Speaker 2: your hand sanitizer.
Speaker 2: The consumer can do a couple of things. The consumers,
Speaker 2: they can look out there. There's a lot of information
Speaker 2: about town that is something we do not realize enough,
Speaker 2: but there's been so much scrutiny of that time that
Speaker 2: there is a lot of information, not only is good,
Speaker 2: some of the bad news is unfortunately true, but there's
Speaker 2: also a lot of good news and there's a lot
Speaker 2: of
Speaker 2: ways to learn about power and to make them an
Speaker 2: educated choice and to decide to support sustainable power. There
Speaker 2: is also a certification standouts, the roundtable for sustainable palm oil,
Speaker 2: which is that voluntary standards. Some products have the labor
Speaker 2: on them.
Speaker 2: I really encourage everybody to choose those and to give
Speaker 2: them maybe a bit of preference. I mean artists, if
Speaker 2: you want to make a very educated choice, that that's
Speaker 2: one that you can do. It's not an obligation because
Speaker 2: like you said, it carries a bit of a premium
Speaker 2: at the end of the day. I think for the consumer,
Speaker 2: the difference in cost is not massive.
Speaker 2: So it's more about trying to figure out what's in
Speaker 2: your products. If you look in the products, you might
Speaker 2: be able to know a lot more about the town
Speaker 2: products than any other products. You might also wonder that
Speaker 2: whether the rest come from when I talk to european
Speaker 2: european friends and usually I tell them, look, look at
Speaker 2: the frozen kids are,
Speaker 2: and in your frozen pizza, you will know a lot
Speaker 2: about the palm oil. But when you know that the tomatoes,
Speaker 2: what do you know about the wheat, what do you
Speaker 2: know that the meat that's been used as well? I
Speaker 2: think the consumer actually can know a lot about a
Speaker 2: pound today,
Speaker 1: we'll take a quick break and be right
Speaker 2: back. Climate
Speaker 1: conversations podcast is supported by savannah, jerome building cities shaping
Speaker 1: lives Now, I'm going to jump in on the roundtables
Speaker 1: work right. The roundtable on sustainable palm oil. It was
Speaker 1: founded
Speaker 1: in 2004 with the goal of promoting sustainable palm oil extraction. Now,
Speaker 1: about 1920% of global palm oil production is certified sustainable,
Speaker 1: it sounds low is 20%. What would it take to
Speaker 1: get it to 50%? And do you think there will
Speaker 1: come a time where it's 100%. And where does the
Speaker 1: impetus come for everyone to get on board and for
Speaker 1: the industry to move from 20% to 50%
Speaker 1: and ideally to 75 and 100%,,
Speaker 2: 19, doesn't look like a lot. It's a lot. It's huge.
Speaker 2: I mean, if you look at products and in particular
Speaker 2: products like pound, which is a big production, 70 million
Speaker 2: talents and it's a huge amount of fun around their 20%.
Speaker 2: It's a lot. It's only quite a success.
Speaker 2: It's gone through two phases. Now we're trying to go
Speaker 2: to the third phase of the RSP or what I
Speaker 2: call the self phase of the R. S. P. O.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's not easy the further increments of the difficult ones,
Speaker 2: it's tough because the standard itself is really tough. So
Speaker 2: for producers it's difficult
Speaker 2: downstream I think in the consumer goods it's also tough,
Speaker 2: maybe less difficult I would say to adopt but to
Speaker 2: be tough to find the product you want because the
Speaker 2: cookies manufacturers, let's say they do not want palm oil,
Speaker 2: they want one part of palm oil and they want
Speaker 2: that part certified and a lot of them want the
Speaker 2: same thing.
Speaker 2: It creates a bit of a supply and demand imbalance
Speaker 2: for certain fractions of the plant products. What does it
Speaker 2: take people to 50%. It will take a bit more work,
Speaker 2: it will take a lot of work on smolders. Sorry,
Speaker 2: finds this but it's really small. Those are really the
Speaker 2: next frontier because it's 40% globally. But in some countries
Speaker 2: it's 90% of the production which is a smaller as
Speaker 2: you look at Thailand we look at the shipping, you
Speaker 2: look in most African countries, it's completely different than what
Speaker 2: we're used to in Asia. So it will take a
Speaker 2: lot of work on seeing how do we support smolders
Speaker 2: to organize themselves and to then get on the way
Speaker 2: to certification.
Speaker 2: I do not know that will go to 100%. The
Speaker 2: Rscos goal is to go to 50.1%. That's our big dream.
Speaker 2: So we're almost halfway there. The last 10% are going
Speaker 2: to be the tough ones. I think the next 20%
Speaker 2: are going to be difficult but the last 10% are
Speaker 2: going to be very difficult to go beyond 50% for
Speaker 2: one
Speaker 2: certification scheme. I don't even know if it's necessary.
Speaker 2: We need the R. S. P. 02 still lead and
Speaker 2: from there others can use the tools which have been developed.
Speaker 2: So if you look the RSP because of the Rs Q.
Speaker 2: There was the development of artists a lot more views
Speaker 2: of the high conservation value concept outside of the first
Speaker 2: three sector, there's also been the development of the high
Speaker 2: carbon stock approach
Speaker 2: that was done because there was the our skill,
Speaker 2: the R. S. P. O. In particular. It's a bit
Speaker 2: like going into space if he wants. It's not for
Speaker 2: everybody but the race to space as made for the
Speaker 2: creation of a lot of tools and these tools then
Speaker 2: can be used by everybody else. So for example, because
Speaker 2: of the R. S. P. O. There was a bigger
Speaker 2: use of the high conservation value concept
Speaker 2: and application and the same, there was the creation of
Speaker 2: the high carbon stock approach.
Speaker 2: Is it? For only for the our skill. No, these
Speaker 2: are tools which would not have been developed if there
Speaker 2: hasn't been the our skill. So they can be used now.
Speaker 2: They can benefit the rest of the industry.
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask a question which maybe it sounds
Speaker 1: a bit naive as a consumer who wants to do
Speaker 1: more and do better. Spy sustainability goes. You say your
Speaker 1: goal is 50.1% right? But if I were to take
Speaker 1: that literally, it will mean that 49.9% of palm oil
Speaker 1: production is not sustainable. And in which case, what does
Speaker 1: not sustainable mean? And what does it look like that
Speaker 1: doesn't augur very well or sound very well for an
Speaker 1: entire industry, does it?
Speaker 2: You're almost asking the right question. It's 49.10%. Not certified.
Speaker 2: Let's be clear there. So it doesn't mean it's not sustainable.
Speaker 2: It just means
Speaker 2: that it will not be certified. That's the big thing.
Speaker 2: Certification Not for everybody. I know of a few plantation
Speaker 2: companies just dislike the concept of being certified. RCO. If
Speaker 2: you look at their practices at the deforested. No. Are
Speaker 2: they treating their workers correctly? They are maybe even investing
Speaker 2: in methane capture. I'm not so sure that the night
Speaker 2: as well,
Speaker 2: But it doesn't mean that they are that producers. It
Speaker 2: just means they do not want to be certified and
Speaker 2: we talked about smaller earlier to get 100% of the
Speaker 2: smaller satisfied. I don't think that will happen under the RSU.
Speaker 2: I don't think that will happen. It's a lot of investment,
Speaker 2: you need a strong, strong organization.
Speaker 2: It's all right not to be 100% are still satisfied,
Speaker 2: but it would be wrong also to see the are
Speaker 2: still disappear.
Speaker 1: We've touched upon this a little bit already and I
Speaker 1: want to talk a bit more about legislation and what
Speaker 1: governments must do and use the two big players here
Speaker 1: as an example, Indonesia and Malaysia and Malaysia obviously has
Speaker 1: land acquisition laws, environmental laws and supposedly 12 other laws
Speaker 1: and regulations regulate the palm oil industry
Speaker 1: in terms of the overall structure of the industry then,
Speaker 1: especially because so much of it is constituted of small holders.
Speaker 1: What more can the government do? Especially because these are
Speaker 1: smallholders who need extra attention. Do you think in the
Speaker 1: long term as well there's structural industry will change where
Speaker 1: maybe there may not be so many smallholders or will
Speaker 1: they always be part of the equation and something that
Speaker 1: both the government as well as larger players will have
Speaker 1: to work with.
Speaker 2: Yes, I believe smolders are there to say as well
Speaker 2: in Indonesia, we look at the smaller population, they're still
Speaker 2: reasonably young. They've plotted pump some of them a while
Speaker 2: back a lot. Only in the past 15 years, I
Speaker 2: would say, what is encouraging from is that
Speaker 2: as you know, muslim as we work a lot on smaller,
Speaker 2: so we had a long five year project with the
Speaker 2: International Finance Corporation
Speaker 2: also. Now we have our own system and our in
Speaker 2: our system. What we do is we train smolders directly,
Speaker 2: but what we try to do is work with local
Speaker 2: governments where we train their agricultural officers. So there can
Speaker 2: be good extension for the small donors. And what's encouraging
Speaker 2: is that
Speaker 2: we see some good interest from the local governance.
Speaker 2: I think they realized the benefits for them as well
Speaker 2: to have good extension services.
Speaker 2: There is a clear direction from the central government in
Speaker 2: Indonesia to end deforestation. That's very clear and fires in particular,
Speaker 2: which is, I know a sensitive topic in in Singapore.
Speaker 2: So local governments are trying to find what they can do.
Speaker 2: So enforcement of course is their duty,
Speaker 2: but they also have to be able to offer something
Speaker 2: and it cannot always be about enforcement and the negative
Speaker 2: side of things if you want, extension is important and
Speaker 2: the local governments, they might have the structures, but they
Speaker 2: do not always have the right curriculum or they do
Speaker 2: not always see what's the point what we do then.
Speaker 2: And I think that's what's important. And you talked about
Speaker 2: the consumer as well. We bring some technical expertise because
Speaker 2: we know how to train
Speaker 2: and we have good curriculum already and so we're happy
Speaker 2: to share that and give a bit of motivation to
Speaker 2: the staff of the local governments. We also commit usually
Speaker 2: for a long period of time. So we have our
Speaker 2: teams
Speaker 2: permanently in one area for a couple of years. So
Speaker 2: that gives a lot of motivation and creates a stronger relationship,
Speaker 2: but most important, or at least as important, we try
Speaker 2: to connect the downstream users with
Speaker 2: those landscapes and that's what's important. Also, it's about how
Speaker 2: do you show that there is a use to what
Speaker 2: you're doing? It's not stopping deforestation, having better farming practices,
Speaker 2: more responsible farming practices and then what, it's a long
Speaker 2: supply chain. So we need to connect the two ends
Speaker 2: of the supply chain so that
Speaker 2: the consumer and the consumer goods manufacturer
Speaker 2: have a better understanding of what's happening and how things
Speaker 2: are evolving, but also they realize that it's not the
Speaker 2: flip of a switch and everything will change. And the same.
Speaker 2: The producers realized that
Speaker 2: there is a demand for better practices and for an
Speaker 2: end of deforestation. It's not a theory, it's not a
Speaker 2: government imposed the theory, it's actually a demand from the market,
Speaker 2: but that also the market recognizes them and see them
Speaker 2: progress and that works. It's not very simple, but it
Speaker 2: does work.
Speaker 1: I'm going to start transitioning to final questions and I
Speaker 1: wanted to take a larger view now, you know, you
Speaker 1: see international jurisdictions like for example, the eu increasingly taking
Speaker 1: a stronger position on
Speaker 1: industries like palm oil and insisting things like sustainability on transparency.
Speaker 1: Speaking from Muslims, what's your take on some of the
Speaker 1: international trend towards focus on the palm oil industry, then
Speaker 1: we're
Speaker 2: a big industry, uh I think it's an industry with
Speaker 2: a bad image, A lot of it is not deserved,
Speaker 2: but that's that's life.
Speaker 2: What worries me is how smolders work in that. So
Speaker 2: you were talking about the EU and it's difficult to
Speaker 2: see how the draft regulation that for the imported different
Speaker 2: position for the due diligence, how that works for smolders.
Speaker 2: I don't see that it night
Speaker 2: the manageable for corporations, but we should not forget smolders.
Speaker 2: I think that's where the focus has to be. The
Speaker 2: commitments are no deforestation are made both by the industry
Speaker 2: and by the government. So I think we are at
Speaker 2: the stage where they are implemented effectively and if they
Speaker 2: are not fully implemented there will be, but it's a
Speaker 2: one way street. So there's no question there, but how
Speaker 2: do we make it still work for smaller? How do
Speaker 2: we continue increasing their income
Speaker 2: and give them an access market? And that's where the
Speaker 2: difficulty lies with those big policies. It's difficult to integrate smaller,
Speaker 2: It's difficult to support them, but it's really critical, we
Speaker 2: cannot let them be on the side and be basically
Speaker 2: part of the non sustainable market
Speaker 2: because they do not have the means of entering the
Speaker 2: real market in the main market. Behind
Speaker 1: the crux of so much of our conversation has revolved
Speaker 1: around smallholders. Last question, therefore, from the small holder to
Speaker 1: the consumer. And so much of our previous podcast as
Speaker 1: well has focused on the awareness and ability and willingness
Speaker 1: of consumers to
Speaker 1: pay ultimately for a more sustainable product?
Speaker 1: In the long term, I presume that sustainable palmer will
Speaker 1: factor into cost. What muslim Masters view on that and
Speaker 1: what's the role that you will play in accepting that
Speaker 1: costs will rise to make sure that it is verifiably sustainable.
Speaker 1: And do you think more can be done to educate
Speaker 1: consumers that we do want to do the sustainable thing?
Speaker 1: But it will come with costs and what are these
Speaker 1: costs going to constitute?
Speaker 2: Our industry is quite transparent today but needs to be
Speaker 2: a bit more transparent. Our problem is that we do
Speaker 2: not have a direct relationship with the consumer. Like I
Speaker 2: said that the selection is quite long. In terms of
Speaker 2: course for sustainability, a lot of producers are not
Speaker 2: unsustainable. They are actually already sustainable, they're not producing in
Speaker 2: the wrong way. But you use the right world, you
Speaker 2: said verifiably, how do we manage to get things verified
Speaker 2: in a way that is credible. And how do we
Speaker 2: pass that value all the way to the consumer? I'm
Speaker 2: not worried about costs. I do not believe that it
Speaker 2: will
Speaker 2: generate massive costs. Were fortunate enough with found that
Speaker 2: the yields direct are so high that the cost of
Speaker 2: production is not so big and the cost per unit
Speaker 2: if you want to be verified, sustainable is not so massive.
Speaker 2: So the consumer should not be afraid of sustainable local life.
Speaker 2: It's something really to embrace, how to verify and how
Speaker 2: do you verify consistently? How do you bring that?
Speaker 2: There's already an effort on transparency? I mean it's still
Speaker 2: within the industry and not all the way to the consumer,
Speaker 2: but there's a reporting framework that's very transparent. Train the
Speaker 2: good and the less good. I mean the progressing companies
Speaker 2: and so we need to do more work on that
Speaker 2: and we need to have more transparency on how things
Speaker 2: are verified and from the consumer,
Speaker 2: the consumer should accept that
Speaker 2: it will not cost in or her too much. No,
Speaker 2: but it has to accept that there is progress done.
Speaker 2: How do you support that progress accepting Palm products but
Speaker 2: asking for transparency, that's the right way for the consumer
Speaker 2: costs
Speaker 1: should
Speaker 2: not become the main concern. I do not believe so.
Speaker 1: Well, I can't end without then a final word on
Speaker 1: the producers as well. Producers of the ice cream of
Speaker 1: the snacks of soaps and shampoos. What more can they
Speaker 1: do in the supply chain to ensure that what comes
Speaker 1: to the consumer is therefore sustainable and as you say,
Speaker 1: potentially do so without significantly increasing costs. I suppose there
Speaker 1: will be some more enlightened producers out there, but there
Speaker 1: must be some who are also lagging behind I suppose right.
Speaker 2: Yes, they are. I mean it's difficult if you're a small,
Speaker 2: medium size producer to ask for sustainable certified products. But
Speaker 2: you can ask for something else. You can check for
Speaker 2: us from whom I like buying. Do I have transparency
Speaker 2: at least this my supply of transparent on its supply chain.
Speaker 2: We are very transparent and you can go on our
Speaker 2: website and see from everybody from when we die.
Speaker 2: We're not the only ones. There's a few of us
Speaker 2: out there were very, very transparent from where do we
Speaker 2: get the products that we refine
Speaker 2: transparency is good for business. It's good for long term business.
Speaker 2: It creates trust. So I do believe that producers want
Speaker 2: to start on their journey to more sustainable products. I
Speaker 2: would say first transparency ask for transparency, you know where
Speaker 2: the products come from? Where is this fraction coming from
Speaker 2: and buying serena buying this or that? Where does it
Speaker 2: come from?
Speaker 2: Can you tell me do you have transparency? You have
Speaker 2: possibility all the way at least with the meals if possible.
Speaker 2: To the plantation
Speaker 1: olivier Tissot as a journalist, I'm all there with you
Speaker 1: as well and transparency. Thank you very much.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much
Speaker 1: and thanks for listening to the climate conversations. Stay up
Speaker 1: to date on CNN's coverage of climate change on Sienna
Speaker 1: to asia. You can also find this and other CNN
Speaker 1: podcast on our website and on itunes and Spotify the
Speaker 1: team behind this podcast, Christina robert, Lynn schooling and Aaron
Speaker 1: low I'm Jamie ho till next week.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: Yeah