WEBVTT - Will palm oil ever be as sustainable as it is essential? | EP 58 0:00:00.040 --> 0:00:01.740 the following is a CNN a 0:00:01.740 --> 0:00:03.550 podcast. 0:00:03.940 --> 0:00:05.260 I'm 0:00:05.260 --> 0:00:08.210 Jamie Hello and thanks for listening to climate conversations today. 0:00:08.210 --> 0:00:11.200 We're talking about an edible vegetable oil that comes from 0:00:11.200 --> 0:00:14.000 the fruit of a palm oil tree. Palm oil. It's 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:16.720 so versatile that is found in close to 50% of 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:18.080 packaged foods found in 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:18.959 supermarket, 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:19.630 everything 0:00:19.630 --> 0:00:22.970 from chips to ice cream, soap to shampoo contains some 0:00:22.970 --> 0:00:25.680 form of power oil and precisely because it is such 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:28.810 an efficient, versatile crop. Swathes of land have been cleared 0:00:28.810 --> 0:00:31.670 to make way for plantations leading to deforestation on a 0:00:31.670 --> 0:00:36.309 massive scale, particularly in Indonesia Malaysia, which account for over 80% 0:00:36.310 --> 0:00:39.200 of global supply, like all sectors, this one needs to 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:42.860 confront the growing pressures to become sustainable. But can it, 0:00:42.870 --> 0:00:45.820 what would it look like? Especially when millions of farmers 0:00:45.830 --> 0:00:49.930 earn a living from palm oil production with me today 0:00:49.940 --> 0:00:51.260 is Olivia T sheet, 0:00:51.340 --> 0:00:54.360 he's the director of Sustainable supply chain and muslim Mas, 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:57.830 the global palm oil company based in Singapore. Olivier is 0:00:57.830 --> 0:01:00.780 active in the roundtable on sustainable palm oil and the 0:01:00.780 --> 0:01:04.060 high carbon stock approach and Palm oil Innovation Group 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:05.810 Olivier. Welcome. 0:01:05.819 --> 0:01:08.870 Thank you very much jane. Good to be on this podcast. 0:01:08.870 --> 0:01:11.429 Thanks let me get into the first question just to 0:01:11.430 --> 0:01:14.480 set the stage for us, not many of us know 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:17.850 just how important the palm oil industry is and the 0:01:17.850 --> 0:01:19.560 range of products we can find 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:22.640 palm oil in. Perhaps. Therefore you can start us off 0:01:22.650 --> 0:01:25.369 by giving us a sense of exactly what we're dealing 0:01:25.370 --> 0:01:28.699 with the demand for this product and more importantly, you know, 0:01:28.700 --> 0:01:32.360 the historical impact that it has had on the environment 0:01:32.370 --> 0:01:35.200 over all these years since it became such an important 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:36.710 product in global commerce. 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:39.610 Well, that would take a good, our our good more 0:01:39.610 --> 0:01:43.360 than half an hour to say what products, that's the 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:47.160 beauty of it is found in everything. For example, if 0:01:47.160 --> 0:01:50.060 you use a hand sanitizer these days, maybe a lot. 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:53.300 It is the glittering as well. You will find it 0:01:53.300 --> 0:01:57.380 in shampoos, in toothpaste. Uh you'll find it in many, many, 0:01:57.380 --> 0:01:59.100 many things. You might find it a lot of course 0:01:59.100 --> 0:01:59.860 in your food. 0:02:00.140 --> 0:02:04.600 Tom is an extremely versatile product oil. The red oil 0:02:04.600 --> 0:02:07.950 and the white oil. There's toils in relative how important 0:02:07.950 --> 0:02:11.520 is it today? Today? It's important not only because of 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:14.419 the share it has taken in the vegetable oil production 0:02:14.419 --> 0:02:17.200 in the world and in the traded vegetable oil, but 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:21.400 also because looking forward with an increasing world population will 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:22.760 need no vegetable oil. 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:27.620 And paul is quite uniquely suited to do that to 0:02:27.620 --> 0:02:30.360 correspond to that increased demand. Why? Because it's got an 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:35.160 incredible heel protector, it's unbeatable and the next best vegetable 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:39.060 oil is 10 times less productive protector. That's the difficulty 0:02:39.060 --> 0:02:41.720 with part if you want pam has to say, we 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.280 want to have less deforestation when we need no power. 0:02:44.290 --> 0:02:46.640 So it will be difficult for some people to understand. 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:50.660 I suspect what has been the impact. Look, there's two impacts. 0:02:50.660 --> 0:02:54.790 So the environmental impact, some deforestation will have been caused 0:02:54.790 --> 0:02:57.560 by power. That's a fact. We can't go around that 0:02:57.940 --> 0:03:01.930 a lot of deforestation has been caused by logging in particular. 0:03:01.930 --> 0:03:04.670 What happens after living is a different story. It's not 0:03:04.669 --> 0:03:05.350 because 0:03:05.740 --> 0:03:08.140 an area of forest was lost and that a couple 0:03:08.139 --> 0:03:10.820 of years later you find harmony that palm cause the 0:03:10.820 --> 0:03:14.500 deforestation part might have been a secondary effect. That's one, 0:03:14.510 --> 0:03:17.910 there's another impact we shouldn't forget, it's the social impact 0:03:17.910 --> 0:03:19.960 of talent and so they are 0:03:20.139 --> 0:03:22.990 some bad stories about town. But let's look elsewhere, the 0:03:22.990 --> 0:03:25.860 millions of snow holders in Indonesia and Malaysia 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:28.940 and Thailand to just keep the region and also be 0:03:28.940 --> 0:03:29.850 the Philippines 0:03:30.340 --> 0:03:33.090 who are making a very good living because of town 0:03:33.100 --> 0:03:36.400 and that's the balance of power. There has been some 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:39.000 problems with, found there might be some problems with pound, 0:03:39.010 --> 0:03:42.920 but there's also a massive positive social impact of power 0:03:43.110 --> 0:03:46.120 and it has to continue improving in reality. And that's 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:47.860 something I'm so I'm sure we'll talk about. 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:51.320 Yeah, definitely. We'll talk about the small scale holders and 0:03:51.320 --> 0:03:55.000 things like that. But the reality then is however, the 0:03:55.000 --> 0:04:00.140 entire industry, Palm Oil does have a particularly bad reputation 0:04:00.140 --> 0:04:02.740 if I may say so in terms of its record 0:04:02.750 --> 0:04:07.880 on deforestation on sustainability? I suspect obviously the industry wants 0:04:07.880 --> 0:04:08.860 to make a change. 0:04:09.040 --> 0:04:13.010 But do you think there's been enough recognition of the 0:04:13.020 --> 0:04:15.440 not so good effects that it has had in the 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:19.010 explosion of demand and in meeting this demand globally, that, 0:04:19.020 --> 0:04:22.580 you know, some of the practices may have been bad 0:04:22.580 --> 0:04:24.760 practices may have been established already 0:04:25.140 --> 0:04:27.719 Now, industry is a big industry. So you have, you 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:30.020 have a variety of players on the one hand, you 0:04:30.020 --> 0:04:33.370 have one section of the industry and today it's about 20% 0:04:33.370 --> 0:04:36.290 of the world production which is certified. And there are 0:04:36.300 --> 0:04:39.550 global voluntary standard called the R. S. P. O. The 0:04:39.550 --> 0:04:41.250 Roundtable for sustainable palm oil. 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:45.350 That's not an industry standard because it's a multi stakeholder 0:04:45.350 --> 0:04:47.820 stand out. So it's developed with the GeoS, it's developed 0:04:47.820 --> 0:04:48.760 with industry 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:52.560 down street, the likes of Nestle, Unilever, Procter and Gamble 0:04:52.560 --> 0:04:56.330 over people use brands, you know, And also of course 0:04:56.330 --> 0:04:59.600 there is the plantation companies spread the demanding stand out. 0:04:59.610 --> 0:05:01.440 If you look today, it's a tough stand out. It's 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:04.560 no deforestation. No expectations stand out quite clearly. 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:08.150 It's uh, it's a voluntary stand up, about 20% of 0:05:08.150 --> 0:05:09.160 the world production 0:05:09.339 --> 0:05:12.690 now on the recognition of impact I think. Yeah, the 0:05:12.690 --> 0:05:16.190 priorities have shifted now. Industry is big enough that not 0:05:16.190 --> 0:05:18.890 everybody is at the same speed. But if you ask 0:05:18.890 --> 0:05:20.820 the main actors are the ones who are the most 0:05:20.820 --> 0:05:23.820 involved on most in touch with market, I would say 0:05:23.830 --> 0:05:27.390 you will find that the priority nowadays is no longer 0:05:27.390 --> 0:05:28.260 to expansion. 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:31.100 So there will be a bit more expansion. That's that's positive. 0:05:31.100 --> 0:05:35.539 All the property. Nowadays. It's more about no deforestation. That's 0:05:35.540 --> 0:05:38.250 the priority because the industry realizes that 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:45.370 it's accused sometimes rightfully, possibly historically, less and less correctly nowadays, 0:05:45.370 --> 0:05:48.289 because if you look at deforestation rates, they have plummeted 0:05:48.300 --> 0:05:51.600 at least in Indonesia and the industry than cannot be 0:05:51.600 --> 0:05:55.410 said to be continuing to difference the massive scale, but 0:05:55.420 --> 0:05:56.460 it's about 0:05:56.640 --> 0:06:00.830 also yield increases. How do we make even more with 0:06:00.830 --> 0:06:03.360 the land that we have now in the parliament? And 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:05.539 if you look at what scientists are saying on an 0:06:05.540 --> 0:06:08.820 idea of breathing friends, so the breeders tell you the 0:06:08.820 --> 0:06:11.409 full potential of part has not been met so we 0:06:11.410 --> 0:06:14.980 can have even more oil per Hector with the areas 0:06:14.980 --> 0:06:17.980 already planted. And that's our challenge. Our challenge is not 0:06:17.980 --> 0:06:21.200 only on the big plantations, but also on the small farms. 0:06:21.210 --> 0:06:22.950 How do we further increases? 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:23.960 Because we can, 0:06:24.140 --> 0:06:25.780 that's where the industry is going up. 0:06:25.790 --> 0:06:28.400 You raise many, many interesting points that we'll get to that, 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:30.850 but maybe I'll start now on the last point that 0:06:30.850 --> 0:06:34.550 you raise about the small scale holders, right? Obviously, as 0:06:34.550 --> 0:06:37.860 you say, many of the big, major conglomerates are responsible 0:06:37.870 --> 0:06:41.400 within the entire industry, but it's said that some 40% 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:44.560 of the world's Pamela, there's still produced by smaller scale 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:45.260 farmers 0:06:45.339 --> 0:06:49.900 Explain to us therefore what's being done to help this 40% 0:06:49.910 --> 0:06:52.520 along the chain so that they do get into more 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:55.560 sustainable production and what's the impetus for them to do so? 0:06:55.570 --> 0:06:58.599 And how does the overall industry help them along? And 0:06:58.610 --> 0:07:02.030 is it realistic to expect this to move sooner than 0:07:02.029 --> 0:07:03.920 everybody wants to actually, or needs 0:07:03.920 --> 0:07:04.260 to 0:07:04.540 --> 0:07:07.130 uh well, you you've put it very well there when 0:07:07.130 --> 0:07:09.550 you say, where's the impetus? What's the need for them? 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:12.880 And that's, that's the question we always have to answer 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:17.060 if we want to move the smallholders, smallholders, their farmers. 0:07:17.070 --> 0:07:19.550 So if you tell them guys, you could make a 0:07:19.550 --> 0:07:23.910 bigger yield out of your blocks, they're interested and they're smart, 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:27.260 They're farmers. So they know that maybe the planting material 0:07:27.260 --> 0:07:30.010 that they have the seeds that they planted, we're not 0:07:30.020 --> 0:07:30.860 that much. 0:07:31.340 --> 0:07:35.410 So they want better seats bomb is a burial crop. 0:07:35.420 --> 0:07:38.510 The cycle is 25 years. So it's a long term crop, 0:07:38.510 --> 0:07:40.650 even from the first smolder in particular, it's a long 0:07:40.650 --> 0:07:44.270 term crop. So it's difficult to move quickly once you've 0:07:44.270 --> 0:07:47.080 planted when you married for 25 years with your pants. 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:49.200 So you can't just cut them and replant with a 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:51.760 new variety. So it's, it's a bit long to get 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:55.660 change and that's a bit frustrating. Including for this. Nonetheless, 0:07:56.240 --> 0:08:00.270 that's enough has been done for smaller. So companies like us, 0:08:00.270 --> 0:08:03.050 that's like maximus, okay, we're very much into 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:04.160 supporting 0:08:04.160 --> 0:08:07.369 smaller. Why, like I said earlier, if we want our 0:08:07.370 --> 0:08:10.540 business to continue to thrive and even to increase, we 0:08:10.540 --> 0:08:13.120 need no production and it cannot come from different station. 0:08:13.130 --> 0:08:15.930 So it will have to come from the intensification. So 0:08:15.930 --> 0:08:20.530 from the smaller, smaller, you need the state to enable. 0:08:20.540 --> 0:08:22.750 So you need very good support from the state. 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:24.750 So the government has to be very close to the 0:08:24.750 --> 0:08:26.860 smaller so that they have the right titles 0:08:26.940 --> 0:08:29.670 so that they know that they can get land titles 0:08:29.670 --> 0:08:32.190 so they can pledge those titles or use those titles 0:08:32.190 --> 0:08:34.860 and land. There's a better value for them. But also 0:08:34.860 --> 0:08:38.420 the industry, we have to support the smolders. We have 0:08:38.420 --> 0:08:41.470 to work with the local governments because on the landscape 0:08:41.470 --> 0:08:45.449 you might have pump smolders, rather smolders, coco smolders, 0:08:45.740 --> 0:08:48.459 it's not by only working with the palm small learns 0:08:48.460 --> 0:08:50.360 that will have maximum impact. 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:53.800 It's quite complicated that we need to go back to 0:08:53.809 --> 0:08:58.840 real basic work which is rural extension work. So how 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:01.679 do you have agricultural of itself in the field who 0:09:01.679 --> 0:09:04.230 can give the right advice to the smaller is because 0:09:04.230 --> 0:09:06.160 like you said, what's in it for them? They have 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:09.950 to sell value to change. So that change becomes something 0:09:09.950 --> 0:09:11.550 that they want also to adopt. 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:14.530 So in terms of things like land clearance, then right 0:09:14.530 --> 0:09:18.150 you say that the intention is to stop all the deforestation. 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:21.610 Do you think you are comfortable enough and governments are 0:09:21.610 --> 0:09:24.540 comfortable enough to say that enough has been said and 0:09:24.550 --> 0:09:29.469 education will continue to educate the smallholders, especially on land 0:09:29.470 --> 0:09:30.650 clearance techniques 0:09:30.740 --> 0:09:34.460 with the overall goals are not having any more deforestation 0:09:35.140 --> 0:09:38.270 there. It takes more than one to to achieve that 0:09:38.270 --> 0:09:40.480 like you said, government has a role to play government 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:41.460 at the end of the day 0:09:41.940 --> 0:09:45.510 these the and foster law will be enforced by governments. 0:09:45.510 --> 0:09:48.220 It should not be delegated to the private sector to 0:09:48.220 --> 0:09:50.680 do so. The government has to play its role there. 0:09:50.690 --> 0:09:53.010 The instant TVs you can get land titles. The land 0:09:53.010 --> 0:09:55.320 titles have a value for the banking system, has to 0:09:55.320 --> 0:09:58.559 recognize the land titles or smaller have access to some capital, 0:09:58.940 --> 0:10:01.710 but the government has to be the enforcer on the industry. 0:10:01.710 --> 0:10:02.559 What can we do? 0:10:02.940 --> 0:10:05.540 We can make it very clear that we have the 0:10:05.540 --> 0:10:11.050 tools today to monitor deforestation. Satellite imagery is readily available. 0:10:11.059 --> 0:10:13.710 It's very quick. You can get it very, very fast 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:15.900 as long as the cloud cover is nothing saying of course, 0:10:15.900 --> 0:10:18.189 but we can get images very fast so we can 0:10:18.190 --> 0:10:20.160 monitor the deforestation quite easily 0:10:20.240 --> 0:10:22.490 so we can make it known in our supply chains 0:10:22.490 --> 0:10:23.960 that deforestation is 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:29.140 not allowed. We don't want fruit from deforested areas and 0:10:29.140 --> 0:10:31.929 we can monitor of that. The government being the enabler 0:10:31.940 --> 0:10:34.520 and the enforcer, the industry having to send a very 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:38.209 clear message. Oil from deforested areas from areas which have 0:10:38.210 --> 0:10:41.470 been cleared and planted because of deforestation will not enter 0:10:41.470 --> 0:10:44.150 our supply chains. So it will have a lesser value. 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:46.350 It will have a small smaller market that will get 0:10:46.350 --> 0:10:47.849 any smaller over time 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:51.780 so there is no incentive to deforest and plant reaching 0:10:51.780 --> 0:10:54.560 the smaller it is the tough part they are smaller 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:58.559 is by definition it's not the cooperation that submits a 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:02.740 license to plant, They make their decisions based on their needs. 0:11:02.750 --> 0:11:05.360 They need to have an income. 0:11:05.540 --> 0:11:08.050 Palm is a good income for smaller because it's a 0:11:08.050 --> 0:11:09.050 regular income 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:11.270 and then the prices can be very good and they 0:11:11.270 --> 0:11:13.960 see their neighbors who are quite successful. There's a lot 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:16.429 of outreach to be done as the private sector through 0:11:16.429 --> 0:11:21.320 the commercial out the government, through enforcement and giving value 0:11:21.330 --> 0:11:23.760 to smaller who are compliant. 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:27.350 Let me talk about now this concept of sustainable palm 0:11:27.350 --> 0:11:30.990 oil production, your role and muscle mass is about sustainability 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:32.150 but dividend 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:35.239 a little bit more into the details about what sustainable 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:39.230 palm oil production looks like. Not just I suppose within plantations, 0:11:39.230 --> 0:11:41.350 but I would presume all of us will want to 0:11:41.350 --> 0:11:44.370 look at it throughout the entire supply chain from the 0:11:44.370 --> 0:11:47.069 farm to the table or to your hand sanitizer. As 0:11:47.070 --> 0:11:50.000 you say, what does it look like? And what can 0:11:50.000 --> 0:11:50.959 the customer 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:54.150 consumer do? Do you know, do you think that they 0:11:54.150 --> 0:11:56.730 know enough about what sustainable palm oil looks like and 0:11:56.730 --> 0:12:00.980 what it entails and ultimately also in the longer run. 0:12:00.990 --> 0:12:03.660 It's also a matter about cost as well, isn't it? 0:12:04.140 --> 0:12:07.949 The consumer is, is a tough choice, their their stuff 0:12:07.950 --> 0:12:08.760 and stuff saying 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:12.080 because the consumer, the only way the consumer will see 0:12:12.090 --> 0:12:14.900 palm oil alone, let's say will be included in all 0:12:14.910 --> 0:12:16.050 the rest of the time 0:12:16.440 --> 0:12:20.340 time will be one of many ingredients like maybe a 0:12:20.340 --> 0:12:24.660 small ingredient might just be the foaming agent in your shampoo. 0:12:24.670 --> 0:12:26.760 It may be only the glycerin, like we said in 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:27.860 your hand sanitizer. 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:31.210 The consumer can do a couple of things. The consumers, 0:12:31.210 --> 0:12:33.420 they can look out there. There's a lot of information 0:12:33.420 --> 0:12:36.550 about town that is something we do not realize enough, 0:12:36.550 --> 0:12:39.470 but there's been so much scrutiny of that time that 0:12:39.470 --> 0:12:42.280 there is a lot of information, not only is good, 0:12:42.290 --> 0:12:45.089 some of the bad news is unfortunately true, but there's 0:12:45.090 --> 0:12:46.840 also a lot of good news and there's a lot 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:47.160 of 0:12:47.440 --> 0:12:51.110 ways to learn about power and to make them an 0:12:51.110 --> 0:12:55.740 educated choice and to decide to support sustainable power. There 0:12:55.740 --> 0:12:59.700 is also a certification standouts, the roundtable for sustainable palm oil, 0:12:59.710 --> 0:13:02.870 which is that voluntary standards. Some products have the labor 0:13:02.870 --> 0:13:03.459 on them. 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:06.890 I really encourage everybody to choose those and to give 0:13:06.890 --> 0:13:09.610 them maybe a bit of preference. I mean artists, if 0:13:09.610 --> 0:13:12.179 you want to make a very educated choice, that that's 0:13:12.179 --> 0:13:14.880 one that you can do. It's not an obligation because 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:17.760 like you said, it carries a bit of a premium 0:13:17.770 --> 0:13:20.350 at the end of the day. I think for the consumer, 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:23.260 the difference in cost is not massive. 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.380 So it's more about trying to figure out what's in 0:13:26.380 --> 0:13:28.599 your products. If you look in the products, you might 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:30.330 be able to know a lot more about the town 0:13:30.330 --> 0:13:33.050 products than any other products. You might also wonder that 0:13:33.050 --> 0:13:36.130 whether the rest come from when I talk to european 0:13:36.140 --> 0:13:39.440 european friends and usually I tell them, look, look at 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:40.760 the frozen kids are, 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:43.000 and in your frozen pizza, you will know a lot 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:45.800 about the palm oil. But when you know that the tomatoes, 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:47.190 what do you know about the wheat, what do you 0:13:47.190 --> 0:13:49.680 know that the meat that's been used as well? I 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:51.780 think the consumer actually can know a lot about a 0:13:51.790 --> 0:13:52.450 pound today, 0:13:52.740 --> 0:13:54.170 we'll take a quick break and be right 0:13:54.170 --> 0:13:58.120 back. Climate 0:13:58.120 --> 0:14:02.680 conversations podcast is supported by savannah, jerome building cities shaping 0:14:02.679 --> 0:14:07.550 lives Now, I'm going to jump in on the roundtables 0:14:07.550 --> 0:14:10.200 work right. The roundtable on sustainable palm oil. It was 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:10.760 founded 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:16.420 in 2004 with the goal of promoting sustainable palm oil extraction. Now, 0:14:16.429 --> 0:14:21.170 about 1920% of global palm oil production is certified sustainable, 0:14:21.180 --> 0:14:24.590 it sounds low is 20%. What would it take to 0:14:24.590 --> 0:14:26.910 get it to 50%? And do you think there will 0:14:26.910 --> 0:14:30.420 come a time where it's 100%. And where does the 0:14:30.420 --> 0:14:33.310 impetus come for everyone to get on board and for 0:14:33.310 --> 0:14:36.360 the industry to move from 20% to 50% 0:14:36.540 --> 0:14:38.660 and ideally to 75 and 100%,, 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:42.760 19, doesn't look like a lot. It's a lot. It's huge. 0:14:42.760 --> 0:14:44.810 I mean, if you look at products and in particular 0:14:44.810 --> 0:14:48.050 products like pound, which is a big production, 70 million 0:14:48.050 --> 0:14:51.460 talents and it's a huge amount of fun around their 20%. 0:14:51.470 --> 0:14:53.560 It's a lot. It's only quite a success. 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:56.110 It's gone through two phases. Now we're trying to go 0:14:56.110 --> 0:14:58.140 to the third phase of the RSP or what I 0:14:58.140 --> 0:14:59.760 call the self phase of the R. S. P. O. 0:14:59.940 --> 0:15:03.070 Yes, it's not easy the further increments of the difficult ones, 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:07.150 it's tough because the standard itself is really tough. So 0:15:07.150 --> 0:15:09.060 for producers it's difficult 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:14.030 downstream I think in the consumer goods it's also tough, 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:17.270 maybe less difficult I would say to adopt but to 0:15:17.270 --> 0:15:19.850 be tough to find the product you want because the 0:15:19.850 --> 0:15:22.520 cookies manufacturers, let's say they do not want palm oil, 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:25.440 they want one part of palm oil and they want 0:15:25.440 --> 0:15:28.260 that part certified and a lot of them want the 0:15:28.260 --> 0:15:29.050 same thing. 0:15:29.140 --> 0:15:32.120 It creates a bit of a supply and demand imbalance 0:15:32.120 --> 0:15:35.860 for certain fractions of the plant products. What does it 0:15:35.860 --> 0:15:38.250 take people to 50%. It will take a bit more work, 0:15:38.250 --> 0:15:40.500 it will take a lot of work on smolders. Sorry, 0:15:40.500 --> 0:15:43.020 finds this but it's really small. Those are really the 0:15:43.020 --> 0:15:46.340 next frontier because it's 40% globally. But in some countries 0:15:46.340 --> 0:15:49.440 it's 90% of the production which is a smaller as 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:51.460 you look at Thailand we look at the shipping, you 0:15:51.460 --> 0:15:55.270 look in most African countries, it's completely different than what 0:15:55.270 --> 0:15:57.180 we're used to in Asia. So it will take a 0:15:57.180 --> 0:16:00.740 lot of work on seeing how do we support smolders 0:16:00.740 --> 0:16:03.370 to organize themselves and to then get on the way 0:16:03.370 --> 0:16:04.660 to certification. 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:08.730 I do not know that will go to 100%. The 0:16:08.730 --> 0:16:12.520 Rscos goal is to go to 50.1%. That's our big dream. 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:15.820 So we're almost halfway there. The last 10% are going 0:16:15.820 --> 0:16:18.000 to be the tough ones. I think the next 20% 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:20.570 are going to be difficult but the last 10% are 0:16:20.570 --> 0:16:24.380 going to be very difficult to go beyond 50% for 0:16:24.380 --> 0:16:24.960 one 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:28.750 certification scheme. I don't even know if it's necessary. 0:16:28.940 --> 0:16:31.860 We need the R. S. P. 02 still lead and 0:16:31.860 --> 0:16:34.670 from there others can use the tools which have been developed. 0:16:34.670 --> 0:16:37.020 So if you look the RSP because of the Rs Q. 0:16:37.030 --> 0:16:40.050 There was the development of artists a lot more views 0:16:40.060 --> 0:16:43.479 of the high conservation value concept outside of the first 0:16:43.480 --> 0:16:46.060 three sector, there's also been the development of the high 0:16:46.060 --> 0:16:47.360 carbon stock approach 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:49.860 that was done because there was the our skill, 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:52.130 the R. S. P. O. In particular. It's a bit 0:16:52.130 --> 0:16:54.210 like going into space if he wants. It's not for 0:16:54.210 --> 0:16:58.260 everybody but the race to space as made for the 0:16:58.260 --> 0:17:01.000 creation of a lot of tools and these tools then 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:03.870 can be used by everybody else. So for example, because 0:17:03.870 --> 0:17:05.629 of the R. S. P. O. There was a bigger 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:08.060 use of the high conservation value concept 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:11.550 and application and the same, there was the creation of 0:17:11.550 --> 0:17:13.060 the high carbon stock approach. 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:16.300 Is it? For only for the our skill. No, these 0:17:16.300 --> 0:17:18.909 are tools which would not have been developed if there 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:21.820 hasn't been the our skill. So they can be used now. 0:17:21.820 --> 0:17:23.750 They can benefit the rest of the industry. 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.180 I'm going to ask a question which maybe it sounds 0:17:26.180 --> 0:17:28.510 a bit naive as a consumer who wants to do 0:17:28.510 --> 0:17:31.660 more and do better. Spy sustainability goes. You say your 0:17:31.660 --> 0:17:35.670 goal is 50.1% right? But if I were to take 0:17:35.670 --> 0:17:39.510 that literally, it will mean that 49.9% of palm oil 0:17:39.510 --> 0:17:42.680 production is not sustainable. And in which case, what does 0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:45.720 not sustainable mean? And what does it look like that 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:48.840 doesn't augur very well or sound very well for an 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:50.159 entire industry, does it? 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:56.060 You're almost asking the right question. It's 49.10%. Not certified. 0:17:56.070 --> 0:17:58.790 Let's be clear there. So it doesn't mean it's not sustainable. 0:17:58.790 --> 0:17:59.859 It just means 0:17:59.940 --> 0:18:02.570 that it will not be certified. That's the big thing. 0:18:02.570 --> 0:18:06.730 Certification Not for everybody. I know of a few plantation 0:18:06.730 --> 0:18:11.450 companies just dislike the concept of being certified. RCO. If 0:18:11.450 --> 0:18:14.640 you look at their practices at the deforested. No. Are 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:19.460 they treating their workers correctly? They are maybe even investing 0:18:19.460 --> 0:18:22.030 in methane capture. I'm not so sure that the night 0:18:22.030 --> 0:18:22.770 as well, 0:18:23.140 --> 0:18:26.030 But it doesn't mean that they are that producers. It 0:18:26.030 --> 0:18:28.219 just means they do not want to be certified and 0:18:28.220 --> 0:18:31.169 we talked about smaller earlier to get 100% of the 0:18:31.170 --> 0:18:35.340 smaller satisfied. I don't think that will happen under the RSU. 0:18:35.350 --> 0:18:37.820 I don't think that will happen. It's a lot of investment, 0:18:37.830 --> 0:18:40.060 you need a strong, strong organization. 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:43.270 It's all right not to be 100% are still satisfied, 0:18:43.740 --> 0:18:46.290 but it would be wrong also to see the are 0:18:46.290 --> 0:18:47.470 still disappear. 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:50.060 We've touched upon this a little bit already and I 0:18:50.060 --> 0:18:52.380 want to talk a bit more about legislation and what 0:18:52.380 --> 0:18:55.650 governments must do and use the two big players here 0:18:55.660 --> 0:18:59.399 as an example, Indonesia and Malaysia and Malaysia obviously has 0:18:59.410 --> 0:19:04.600 land acquisition laws, environmental laws and supposedly 12 other laws 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:07.260 and regulations regulate the palm oil industry 0:19:07.440 --> 0:19:10.469 in terms of the overall structure of the industry then, 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:15.129