Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of the Work It podcast.
Speaker 1: It's Tiffany and Gerald, your hosts. Graduation season is coming
Speaker 1: up and a big congrats to potential fresh grads out there. Well,
Speaker 1: this will mark the start of a brand new chapter
Speaker 1: for everyone and it comes with the big question, what's next?
Speaker 1: Well today we're diving into one of the more competitive career.
Speaker 1: The routes that fresh graduates might aim for a graduate program.
Speaker 1: But before we get into what this is, Gerald, what
Speaker 1: was your first job when you graduated and how did
Speaker 1: you land it? Wow, it's going to take me back
Speaker 1: down the memory lane quite a little bit. I think
Speaker 1: I graduated somewhere around 2009 and that was the subprime crisis.
Speaker 1: It was global recession and I remembered my batchmates, they
Speaker 1: were all
Speaker 1: Really worried about not having a job after graduation. So
Speaker 1: thankfully for myself, I was offered an opportunity at a
Speaker 1: place where I interned at. Same here. I interned at
Speaker 1: CNA and then when I graduated in 2007, they offered
Speaker 1: me a full-time job. I think at that point of time,
Speaker 1: my batch was more of wherever a company offered you,
Speaker 1: if you didn't mind it, you would just go into
Speaker 1: it and that's why internships are very important for us
Speaker 1: at that point of time. Yeah, I think it's still
Speaker 1: very important nowadays, right? We covered that in a different
Speaker 1: podcast where
Speaker 1: We had students who are doing multiple internships and I
Speaker 1: think today the path for fresh graduate into a job
Speaker 1: is not so straightforward anymore. It's not just finding a job,
Speaker 1: they maybe have internships in between, apprenticeships, short term contracts
Speaker 1: as well. There's lots of ways for them to start
Speaker 1: to enter the market and I think somewhere along this mix,
Speaker 1: we do hear this term graduate programs, also known as management,
Speaker 1: associate programs, management traineeships. Yeah, when I first heard the
Speaker 1: term graduate programs, honestly, I thought it was the postgraduate program.
Speaker 1: like furthering your studies, but then I realized, oh, it's not.
Speaker 1: It's a full-time role, lasts around 12 to 24 months
Speaker 1: and they're often marketed to fresh graduates as a career
Speaker 1: acceleration program where you can have advancement opportunities and in
Speaker 1: some cases even direct access to decision makers within the company.
Speaker 1: So it sounds really, really good, really promising, a lot
Speaker 1: of potential if today you're thinking long term for your career, right?
Speaker 1: Management Associate program sounds like it's a thing to go for,
Speaker 1: but such programs really the golden ticket for fresh graduates.
Speaker 1: And if you're considering one, what are some of the
Speaker 1: things you should be thinking about? So to help us
Speaker 1: dig deeper into what graduate programs are designed to do
Speaker 1: and what they actually deliver, we've invited Samuel Beddy, who
Speaker 1: is the ASEAN people consulting leader at Erns and Yang,
Speaker 1: to unpack for us what these structured management associate programs
Speaker 1: actually offer and whether they are worth it. So welcome, Samir.
Speaker 2: I'm
Speaker 2: very excited to be here to talk.
Speaker 2: About one of the most premium programs for
Speaker 1: graduates, the premium. OK, let's break it down a little bit.
Speaker 1: What do graduate programs offer that is very different from
Speaker 1: a regular entry level job?
Speaker 2: I think the beauty of a graduate program is it
Speaker 2: perfectly brings into the employment landscape. So what it's trying
Speaker 2: to say is from a graduate, you normally get a job,
Speaker 2: which is then you move towards employment and then you
Speaker 2: work towards the organizational goals that you're striving to fulfill, right?
Speaker 2: The graduate program allows you to start your lifelong learning
Speaker 2: journey after your education as well, because now you start learning.
Speaker 2: With the company, you start learning what the company's purpose is.
Speaker 2: You have multidisciplinary experiences. You sometimes contribute to very strategic projects,
Speaker 2: you have access to management, right? So you continue to learn,
Speaker 2: but at the same time you start contributing. So I
Speaker 2: think it's the perfect mix that allows an individual to
Speaker 2: move from learning to employment in a premium form or manner.
Speaker 1: But some people might say, when I started my first job,
Speaker 1: I was also learning, I was picking up the.
Speaker 1: as well. So what is the difference between the learning
Speaker 1: that you mentioned earlier on and the learning I did
Speaker 1: when I started my
Speaker 1: work?
Speaker 2: So every new hire that the company has has to
Speaker 2: have an articulated way to help them start contributing, right?
Speaker 2: I think the management associate program or the graduate program
Speaker 2: that we're talking of, has it designed in a little
Speaker 2: more scientific manner, because normally there's a cohort of individuals
Speaker 2: that come in, they go through
Speaker 2: That learning journey, there's a bit of peer learning that happens.
Speaker 2: There's clarity not only with the individual supervisor for that
Speaker 2: short stint, but it's also with the entire organization.
Speaker 1: I mean, you use the word premium, my thoughts were,
Speaker 1: if it's so good, why is it not for everybody?
Speaker 1: Shouldn't this be like maybe the opportunity for all new hires?
Speaker 2: So, all new hires need to do learning, need to
Speaker 2: do onboarding, need to understand the organization, right?
Speaker 2: I think this is a cream of the crop kind
Speaker 2: of a program. There are benefits both to an organization
Speaker 2: as well as to employees. From an organization perspective, it
Speaker 2: helps them win the war for talent that has been
Speaker 2: going on for many years now. This helps them attract.
Speaker 2: The best quality talent that they have. So if you
Speaker 2: started offering this to everyone, firstly, an organization would not
Speaker 2: have the likely resources to be able to manage this
Speaker 2: for every hire that they make. This is those hires
Speaker 2: that they believe are going to perform higher and have
Speaker 2: potential as well to be able to do this. This
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that if you join an organization.
Speaker 2: From the normal route, you can achieve those. But in
Speaker 2: terms of the perspective of offering this in a scientific
Speaker 2: multidisciplinary approach, giving individuals the access to management, instilling new
Speaker 2: blood and new thinking to help the organization move forward,
Speaker 2: and also to enable the careers of those management graduates.
Speaker 1: What do organizations look for?
Speaker 1: To determine whether somebody is supposed to be in this
Speaker 1: group.
Speaker 2: The reality is what organizations look for has slightly changed
Speaker 2: over the last few years as well. Right now, what
Speaker 2: organizations primarily look for is resilience, lifelong learning, because you
Speaker 2: need people to invest in this journey, believe that there's
Speaker 2: alignment between the purpose of the organization and the purpose
Speaker 2: of those individuals. So the reality is that learning is
Speaker 2: soon going to be the new dollar. That means it's
Speaker 2: actually more important.
Speaker 2: Then the salary, the benefits, the bonus that a company
Speaker 2: can offer you. And this program actually provides learning in
Speaker 2: its truest form or manner, which helps you understand it
Speaker 2: both from a theoretical as well as a practical perspective
Speaker 2: and help you implement it across the various divisions, subdivisions
Speaker 2: that you have access to in the management program, right?
Speaker 2: So this learning opportunity is what actually differentiates this from
Speaker 2: a normal recruit.
Speaker 1: But do you think all of that can be measured?
Speaker 1: At the start when they are selecting these people to
Speaker 1: join the program at an age where maybe they're only
Speaker 1: in their twenties. I mean some people are late bloomers, right?
Speaker 1: Or I would argue that somebody that you select in
Speaker 1: your graduate program may be book smart enough to say
Speaker 1: the things you want to hear from them in the interview.
Speaker 1: And they don't turn out to be like that. So
Speaker 1: when it comes to these management programs, is it always
Speaker 1: going to be a situation where the right people will
Speaker 1: join the program? Tiffany,
Speaker 2: you ask a very pertinent question and very difficult to answer.
Speaker 2: The word that I would be wary for is always,
Speaker 2: there is no guarantee.
Speaker 2: Or there is no certainty that will always happen. But yes,
Speaker 2: organizations do look for certain qualities, specific competencies or skill sets.
Speaker 2: If you generalize it, lifelong learning, resilience, teamwork, collaboration are
Speaker 2: pretty much some of the areas that they wanted to
Speaker 2: focus on, along with some technical skills and capabilities that
Speaker 2: they would look for, right? The reality is that the
Speaker 2: graduates that go through this program have better access to
Speaker 2: learning opportunities. Now, how they use this access, how they.
Speaker 2: Implemented is what will help differentiate them from someone who
Speaker 2: joins the normal recruitment route. Not to say that someone
Speaker 2: who's normally recruited is ignored by an organization. In fact,
Speaker 2: an organization is invested in that individual as well. So
Speaker 2: does need to give some level of access, some level
Speaker 2: of learning to ensure that the individual is successful as well.
Speaker 1: But then it would
Speaker 1: be harder for them to even try and get to
Speaker 1: that same level with the same access, right?
Speaker 2: They may not have the exposure to the multidisciplinary approach.
Speaker 2: They may not have the same level of understanding of
Speaker 2: the industry in which they operate, which typically a management
Speaker 2: associate program will go through. They may not have the
Speaker 2: access to multiple different business division leaders.
Speaker 2: But this doesn't stop them from wanting that access. In fact,
Speaker 2: if a graduate joins not in the management associate program,
Speaker 2: but joins as a recruiter in an organization, and they
Speaker 2: clamor for all those reasons, it's also a proactiveness from
Speaker 2: that individual. So it may go towards their benefit. I
Speaker 2: would like to say it's probably easier if you're in
Speaker 2: the management association.
Speaker 2: Program, but it's not a guarantee for the other recruits
Speaker 2: that don't join this program, there's still access to learning,
Speaker 2: access to career opportunities and therefore, they can still flourish
Speaker 2: in the organization.
Speaker 1: I think I'm also reminded that there are other programs
Speaker 1: within the company. There's other leadership programs, management programs for
Speaker 1: staff that are existing.
Speaker 1: And this is what Samel was talking about. Employees who
Speaker 1: really want to grow, want to learn, be part of
Speaker 1: the management team, but they didn't get through the management
Speaker 1: associate program. So there's supposed to be other pathways within
Speaker 1: the company for existing employees to travel through.
Speaker 1: So I think if a company has multiple programs like this,
Speaker 1: then I think it takes care of all the employees'
Speaker 1: needs and not just all the future leaders are going
Speaker 1: to come from this one program. I I guess coming
Speaker 1: from the the group of people who are not part
Speaker 1: of this management program, we can understand that some of
Speaker 1: them might feel this premium group of people are kind
Speaker 1: of like the white horse, right? They are treated as
Speaker 1: very special, they are treated as one day possibly going
Speaker 1: to be my boss and everything. I think it makes
Speaker 1: the dynamics a little bit.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say awkward but different, right? And there's a
Speaker 1: sense that anyone who is part of the graduate program
Speaker 1: might be measured differently. You're always going to be measured
Speaker 1: according to whether you are good enough to be my
Speaker 1: boss one day. So is this sort of program almost
Speaker 1: in a sense kind of
Speaker 1: Setting them up for failure if they don't meet these
Speaker 1: targets.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't think it's setting them up for failure. They
Speaker 2: are hired into certain levels. They're expected to perform at
Speaker 2: the higher end of those levels because they have that
Speaker 2: access and there is that expectation from those employees. But
Speaker 2: at the same time, they are in a loop by
Speaker 2: which they're given consistent and regular feedback. So you really
Speaker 2: find in the management associated
Speaker 2: Program that things go totally off track for individuals because
Speaker 2: the feedback loop is very strong. They're counseled towards ensuring
Speaker 2: that they can achieve the stretch goals that they're all
Speaker 2: part of.
Speaker 1: So after suppose someone goes through the management associate program,
Speaker 1: they've gone through all the experiences, they've got the feedback,
Speaker 1: they've learned a lot. At the end of it, how
Speaker 1: many of them do eventually make it into senior management
Speaker 1: roles and is there an industry benchmark or number that
Speaker 1: defines whether the management program.
Speaker 1: It's effective. So
Speaker 2: I think making into senior management roles is still far
Speaker 2: away for them, right? And they have multiple layers. I
Speaker 2: think the management associate program is a defined program for
Speaker 2: a period of time. Typically between 6 and 2 years,
Speaker 2: depending on the organization and the skill sets that they
Speaker 2: are trying to help the individuals acquire. Once they graduate
Speaker 2: from them, they move into roles that test them, stretch them,
Speaker 2: that allow them to showcase their learning and to help the.
Speaker 2: Organizations succeed in a very competitive environment. One of the
Speaker 2: measures that, you know, organizations could use to see if
Speaker 2: these programs are effective is the retention rate of these graduates,
Speaker 2: because again, if you are hiring cream of the crop
Speaker 2: that goes through this program with you, it's not that
Speaker 2: you've hired them for life. They also have a marketability
Speaker 2: in the external environment. So it's important for organizations to
Speaker 2: continually showcase uh the fact that these individuals
Speaker 2: are important to their success. So retention rate is critical.
Speaker 2: One way of measuring this is to see whether these
Speaker 2: graduates are able to achieve the stretch expectations that you
Speaker 2: have set for them in performance. And then over a
Speaker 2: period of time, see whether they are able to move
Speaker 2: across the career hierarchy maybe faster or in an accelerated
Speaker 2: manner than some of their peers. From an individual perspective,
Speaker 2: I would say stretch expectations for them may cause
Speaker 2: A little bit of stress, but sometimes the stress and
Speaker 2: anxiety allows you to have adrenaline flowing and deliver better
Speaker 2: than average outcomes and create exceptional outcomes.
Speaker 1: Is it always a guarantee that after the traineeship, you
Speaker 1: would get a full-time position, a permanent position in the company?
Speaker 1: Because I've heard of cases where you can complete the
Speaker 1: management associate program and then you're dropped. You're dropped off
Speaker 1: and you're not even employed. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, if your performance levels in the management associate program
Speaker 2: are at expectations, more than likely, I'd say it's nearly
Speaker 2: a given that you will find a role in the organization.
Speaker 2: But having said that, there may be certain roles in
Speaker 2: the organization that they may offer to the management associate
Speaker 2: program graduates, and they may not be the same preferences
Speaker 2: from the individuals. For example, you may want a role
Speaker 2: in sales, but there's only a role available in marketing. So, reality,
Speaker 2: there may be differences in the preferences for individuals, for
Speaker 2: certain global organizations that run this across regions globally as well.
Speaker 2: There may be different roles in
Speaker 2: markets that you may be offered, which may not align
Speaker 2: with what the individuals may want. So it's always a
Speaker 2: supply and demand rationale that we need to consider.
Speaker 1: And is a promotion always guaranteed and will your promotion
Speaker 1: be fast tracked when you compare it with somebody who
Speaker 1: is hired on a normal recruitment role?
Speaker 2: So again, I go back to the point that having
Speaker 2: gone through this program, you should have a better appreciation
Speaker 2: of what the industry in which the organization operates.
Speaker 2: The strength of the organization, the purpose of the organization,
Speaker 2: the way it engages with its customers, the way it
Speaker 2: makes money. So you have a very diverse view of
Speaker 2: that organization. And thus, I think this is about having
Speaker 2: access to that and therefore being able to grow your
Speaker 2: career at a faster rate than maybe an individual that
Speaker 2: went through it in a short 1 to 3 month onboarding,
Speaker 2: where they may not have that level of access. They
Speaker 2: may understand everything, but they don't have the access to
Speaker 2: various divisions, various senior managers, and therefore,
Speaker 2: Because of the access, you are expected to understand the
Speaker 2: organization a lot better and therefore deliver performance at a
Speaker 2: much higher level. And this is what then accelerates the
Speaker 2: career growth.
Speaker 1: What about salaries though? I think people will be very
Speaker 1: interested in hearing this. Are they on a different track?
Speaker 1: Do they start with a higher salary?
Speaker 2: There are organizations that offer similar salary to the.
Speaker 2: graduates they hire not on the program versus the ones
Speaker 2: they hire on the program, but they could start with
Speaker 2: a higher salary. Like I said, again, the expectation to
Speaker 2: move career levels is higher. So over time, if that
Speaker 2: does come through, there's a difference in the salary numbers
Speaker 2: that do come through because people are performing at a
Speaker 2: higher level or they are growing their careers at a
Speaker 2: faster rate.
Speaker 1: I think also that's say a program is 23 years long.
Speaker 1: The opportunity cost of being on a management program, right.
Speaker 1: A typical employee will have clocked 3 years of solid
Speaker 1: experiences within the department, whereas the management associate goes through
Speaker 1: 6 months each time, they don't really have the depth. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so perhaps that's what the higher salary can actually compensate for.
Speaker 1: But then I guess it doesn't sound fair, right? Because
Speaker 1: you don't have the depth in terms of being in
Speaker 1: individual departments for 6 months. It just looks like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you get a sense of the whole business operation, but
Speaker 1: you don't have depth, but at the same time,
Speaker 1: salary is always accelerated and growing at a faster pace
Speaker 1: than everybody else. Where is the buy-in from the rest
Speaker 1: of the people within the company that this program is
Speaker 1: a program that benefits not just the entire company, but
Speaker 1: benefits the average worker in the long term if this
Speaker 1: person is on an accelerated program. In my opinion, I
Speaker 1: guess when you are paying someone a little bit more,
Speaker 1: there are multiple reasons why for the employee itself on
Speaker 1: the management program having to uproot every time and relearn
Speaker 1: and learn, it's a little bit stressful. That's one, of course,
Speaker 1: and expectations to perform.
Speaker 1: People view you differently. They expect you to perform at
Speaker 1: higher levels. You're expected to react faster, change faster, and
Speaker 1: all this working towards hopefully the potential of being stretched
Speaker 1: into a certain leadership position in the future. So I
Speaker 1: think when you look at everything in total, then that's
Speaker 1: why they have to pay more.
Speaker 2: The beauty
Speaker 2: of the program lies in the breadth of experience they
Speaker 2: provide to the individuals, right? But the real success comes
Speaker 2: once they graduate out of the program and are in
Speaker 2: a full-time job.
Speaker 2: Where they expected to show their depth in that function
Speaker 2: in which they're working in. So, for example, no organization
Speaker 2: achieves what they want to achieve by one particular function.
Speaker 2: It's always a combination of multiple functions that the organization has.
Speaker 2: So if you're on sales, you need to understand what
Speaker 2: marketing does. You need to understand what corporate services, finance, HR,
Speaker 2: IT kind of delivers. You need to understand what's the
Speaker 2: brand positioning of the organization. So, it's that depth that
Speaker 2: allows them to be more
Speaker 2: Successful in the job that they operate in. It's that
Speaker 2: bread that they get. So I think the reality of
Speaker 2: the rubber hits the road once they actually are out
Speaker 2: of the program and start contributing in a full-time job.
Speaker 1: I think this conversation about the management program makes me
Speaker 1: start to think that actually our expectations of a person
Speaker 1: on this program becoming a leader is not that direct,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 1: there's actually a long distance. Once you finish the program,
Speaker 1: there's still a lot you have to do before you
Speaker 1: can make your way up there. So I think the
Speaker 1: perception that we connect these two things together could be
Speaker 1: a little bit too close and too tight, right? Or
Speaker 1: maybe we should really look at it as employers, number one,
Speaker 1: trying to look out for the best talent first and
Speaker 1: then trying to harness that potential, stretch them.
Speaker 1: And those who are able to be stretched them maybe
Speaker 1: see what happens. We know that for the majority of
Speaker 1: the employees, when they see a management associate, those perceptions
Speaker 1: hang very quickly. That's why I thought this is something
Speaker 1: that maybe we should really think a little bit deeper,
Speaker 1: a little bit more. Does every management associate really become
Speaker 1: a leader at the end? And what sort of leadership
Speaker 1: capabilities do they bring to the table as well? Let's
Speaker 1: say for example, if I'm 25 and I don't have
Speaker 1: a healthy mindset of what leadership looks like.
Speaker 1: Then I would think to myself, I will get to
Speaker 1: department head by the time I'm 30 and then I
Speaker 1: will tell you guys what you guys have to do
Speaker 1: and how you guys have to think because none of
Speaker 1: you are as smart as me. And then there are
Speaker 1: those where they have a very healthy mindset of leadership
Speaker 1: where they see it as a servant leadership and they
Speaker 1: are there to serve the company, help people to achieve
Speaker 1: the best in their career health. So I think that's
Speaker 1: where
Speaker 1: It's not easy trying to not just see out the
Speaker 1: people with the right mindset, but to also as you said,
Speaker 1: give them the right feedback along the way to say, hey,
Speaker 1: you know what, we need to stretch you in this
Speaker 1: area or we need to challenge certain mindsets that you
Speaker 1: have of what leadership looks like.
Speaker 2: Organizations provide these management graduates with the right to access
Speaker 2: to even senior leaders so that they understand how leaders
Speaker 2: operate in that organization.
Speaker 2: They can pick up certain skills by which they can
Speaker 2: manage difficult circumstances, manage people, deal with peers, deal with
Speaker 2: people who are junior to them as well as deal upwards.
Speaker 2: You know, the learning model has been fairly well researched
Speaker 2: and pulled through. Actually, 70% of the learning that people
Speaker 2: get are on the job.
Speaker 2: So, these graduates are doing a job and therefore they
Speaker 2: get that learning. 20% of that learning they get is
Speaker 2: through mentoring, to counseling, to coaching, and it's only 10%
Speaker 2: that comes in through formal programs that they want to run. So,
Speaker 2: the management program provides all of this.
Speaker 2: The 20% becomes enlarged because you have more mentors, more counselors,
Speaker 2: more coaches. The 70% on the job is again very
Speaker 2: stretched because it could be multidisciplinary in nature.
Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds definitely that you are a big
Speaker 1: fan of this program. What do you think is still
Speaker 1: lacking when it comes to this management associate program and
Speaker 1: that you feel in the next 5 years, companies can
Speaker 1: focus on
Speaker 2: I think what will be interesting to watch out for
Speaker 2: is today, you know, technology, GN AI AI is transforming
Speaker 2: everything that we work and operate in, right? So the
Speaker 2: reality is how organizations start helping these graduates to
Speaker 2: Become the epicenter of the technology in the organization, because
Speaker 2: that will then help the organization propel a lot faster,
Speaker 2: as well as help individuals to grow their careers a
Speaker 2: lot faster. These programs will need to now inculcate both
Speaker 2: AI Gen AI technology in one of the key areas
Speaker 2: or aspects of the program that they run in the organization.
Speaker 2: And organizations are going to be the schools of tomorrow.
Speaker 1: I'm just very curious as a last question. Can I,
Speaker 1: let's say, work for 2 years or 3 years first
Speaker 1: at an entry level and then decide I will want
Speaker 1: to join a graduate program, then leave the job that
Speaker 1: I have, maybe join another company, but as part of
Speaker 1: their graduate program. Is it possible or are graduate programs
Speaker 1: only solely for fresh
Speaker 1: graduates?
Speaker 2: Uh, depends.
Speaker 2: On the organization, but there may be opportunities for individuals
Speaker 2: to join another organization and join into the management graduate program.
Speaker 2: The answer is it depends, but it definitely does show
Speaker 2: from an individual the lifelong learning mindset if they're willing
Speaker 2: to even after working 2 or 3 years to go
Speaker 2: back into a management graduate program.
Speaker 1: Because the pay might be a little bit lower, is
Speaker 1: that right?
Speaker 2: Potentially,
Speaker 1: I mean, depends on the company.
Speaker 1: moving into. So this is one of the examples that
Speaker 1: I had one person who who was exactly like that.
Speaker 1: He was considering to go on a management associate program
Speaker 1: after working 2 years and then he realized the salary
Speaker 1: was different. So even though management associates pay more at
Speaker 1: that level, but he realized that after 2 years of working,
Speaker 1: his pay was actually higher. Yeah, I guess also not
Speaker 1: all management associate programs pay like super good. Maybe some
Speaker 1: of them they do pack it at more.
Speaker 1: More rates.
Speaker 2: I just like to say this to all graduates, don't
Speaker 2: chase dollars early in your life, chase learning, and dollars
Speaker 2: will chase you later in your life.
Speaker 1: Good advice, good advice. Wouldn't be good if HR or
Speaker 1: if the organization starts to become a little bit more
Speaker 1: transparent about communicating such programs. I think helping people to
Speaker 1: see that these employees on the program, they are not
Speaker 1: coming into Lord over you.
Speaker 1: You know, they have to work really hard. They are
Speaker 1: also learning about themselves and they're also growing. Maybe they
Speaker 1: just were able to express some positive qualities in a
Speaker 1: better way earlier in life, but they still have to
Speaker 1: work very hard for it. So I thought that for
Speaker 1: an organization that has management associate program, the ethos of
Speaker 1: the company of you work hard.
Speaker 1: And then you can get promoted, you can become a leader.
Speaker 1: It must be the main thing. They have to learn
Speaker 1: to decouple and explain this clearly. Yeah, well said. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you so much, Samir, for coming and sharing your
Speaker 1: views on this. I mean, I'm not entirely convinced that
Speaker 1: the program is perfect, but like any program at any organization.
Speaker 1: I think there's always sort of work in progress and
Speaker 1: it only can get better. I'm glad that we covered
Speaker 1: points to help people who are at that stage of
Speaker 1: life where they can consider if they want to be
Speaker 1: part of the graduate program, what kind of accelerated pathways
Speaker 1: they can take, but also at the same time be
Speaker 1: very cognizant of the fact that it's not an easy
Speaker 1: path for them to. The expectations will be very high.
Speaker 1: So thank you so much for laying all the cards
Speaker 1: on the table for us, Samir. Thank you. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much. Thank you.
Speaker 1: Hello, thanks for joining us again. It's our Ask Me
Speaker 1: Anything segment. We love your questions. So do send it
Speaker 1: to us. We're at CNA podcasts at Mediacorp.com.sg.
Speaker 1: Now today's question was sent in by our listener Jane.
Speaker 1: Jane's question is short, sweet, but she didn't give us
Speaker 1: a lot of information as to what she's struggling with.
Speaker 1: But let's unpack it a little bit more. Jane says
Speaker 1: with the current situation, do we stay put in our
Speaker 1: job despite all the possible pain points one could imagine
Speaker 1: or just look for another and quit this current painful one.
Speaker 1: Wow, Jane sounds very, very unhappy. Yes, yes, I can
Speaker 1: feel it in the question a lot of pain. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's two states that she's in, in one place she's
Speaker 1: feeling like she needs to move on because it's so painful.
Speaker 1: Then the other place that she's at is.
Speaker 1: She's too scared to move on because she feels scared
Speaker 1: that there's no opportunities for her or maybe she's worried
Speaker 1: that if she goes into the next job, it may
Speaker 1: not give her the same stability and that's why she's stuck.
Speaker 1: She can't make a change and she also doesn't like
Speaker 1: where she's at now. Yeah, so I think we have
Speaker 1: to make a few assumptions here like you say, she's
Speaker 1: not happy and she wants out. 2, sounds like what
Speaker 1: she is so fearful.
Speaker 1: about is that the job market isn't great for her,
Speaker 1: and she's worried she can't find something. You know, we
Speaker 1: talked about this before we started recording. This is a very, very,
Speaker 1: very deep and big question, but what would be your
Speaker 1: advice if we were to look at it from a
Speaker 1: very general point of view? I think generally speaking, we
Speaker 1: have to test some assumptions. So for example, some assumptions
Speaker 1: we have to test is of the job.
Speaker 1: Market, right? Are there opportunities that would be good for
Speaker 1: you or is it really as terrible as you think?
Speaker 1: I guess if she wants to stay in her current
Speaker 1: job environment, some sectors might not be doing well, right?
Speaker 1: But if she can look at some transferable skills that
Speaker 1: she has, she may actually open herself up to different
Speaker 1: sectors where she can find work. So I think testing
Speaker 1: some assumptions about the job market, is it really as
Speaker 1: bad as she thinks? It's very, very important, right?
Speaker 1: Then the other part of it is, of course, looking
Speaker 1: at her pain points in the company. How deep are
Speaker 1: these pain points? What's causing these pain points? Are these
Speaker 1: pain points addressable? Can Jane do something about making challenges
Speaker 1: at work disappear or make it just a little bit
Speaker 1: better for herself. But most of us, it's too much
Speaker 1: work to think like this, right? We are used to
Speaker 1: the daily hamster wheel of just
Speaker 1: Surviving. So Jane is in a kind of a survival mode.
Speaker 1: She's just kicking the can down a little bit every day,
Speaker 1: but it's painful. I think also has Jane tried to
Speaker 1: sort of address some of these pain points? Perhaps she
Speaker 1: could have and she is still not getting any progress
Speaker 1: out of that, but also if she hasn't, then it
Speaker 1: will be a good time to talk to somebody.
Speaker 1: About it because it's very difficult. I mean, I've been
Speaker 1: in a situation before where you are stuck in that,
Speaker 1: you know, silo, where you just feel that everything is
Speaker 1: against you and there's no other possible solutions because you
Speaker 1: haven't really spoken to other people who might give you
Speaker 1: certain solutions that may work. Yeah, I think when we
Speaker 1: look at the pinpoints, there are some that we can
Speaker 1: address and some we cannot.
Speaker 1: So for example, if we are working in a job
Speaker 1: and a lot of these pinpoints come from, let's say
Speaker 1: a toxic work environment, you got really, really nasty boss
Speaker 1: and you realize that you can't change people, right? You
Speaker 1: can't change the culture by yourself, then those become pinpoints
Speaker 1: that is not addressable and if those are the pain
Speaker 1: not addressable, then maybe Jane should really go and check
Speaker 1: out the job market, right? But if today the pain
Speaker 1: points are self-inflicted.
Speaker 1: Within our control, for example, being burned out from work,
Speaker 1: not setting clear boundaries, setting clear boundaries at work or
Speaker 1: maybe you feel really very disengaged with your work, your work,
Speaker 1: you've been doing it for let's say 10 number of
Speaker 1: years and you're bored and then doing the same work
Speaker 1: again feels like you're not being rewarded. Or maybe it
Speaker 1: could be you feel like you are not being treated
Speaker 1: fairly because you've been passed over for promotions for a
Speaker 1: number of years.
Speaker 1: And then this become painful, right? So if those are
Speaker 1: the top pin points within Jane, then perhaps it's important
Speaker 1: to address those things because some of these can carry
Speaker 1: forward into any other job that she moves into in
Speaker 1: the future. One thing that we are very aware of
Speaker 1: is that we are not here to tell Jane to
Speaker 1: quit your job just because it's painful and we're not
Speaker 1: here to give you advice to say don't worry, there
Speaker 1: will be a job out there.
Speaker 1: For you and everything because we recognize that not everyone
Speaker 1: is in a privileged position to be able to just
Speaker 1: quit a job and look for something else and have
Speaker 1: enough finances to tie yourself through. So I think the
Speaker 1: first thing would be to, before you actually get to
Speaker 1: that stage, look at your finances to see whether there
Speaker 1: are sort of emergency savings that can tide you through
Speaker 1: a few.
Speaker 1: while you are job hunting and if not, then start
Speaker 1: on it now so that you have at least a
Speaker 1: goal that you're working towards and it takes your mind
Speaker 1: away from any of the possible pain that you're currently
Speaker 1: holding in your job. And I think I would suggest
Speaker 1: is to also identify silver linings. Yes, the job may
Speaker 1: be painful, but I think on a daily basis if
Speaker 1: you were to break it down, there could be things
Speaker 1: that you
Speaker 1: Thankful for. It could be like at least you have
Speaker 1: one nice colleague or your office pantry is well stocked.
Speaker 1: So I would say look for these silver linings that
Speaker 1: can get you through the day while you plan for
Speaker 1: your exit strategy. Yeah, so I think for Jane really
Speaker 1: deeper consideration, you need to really lay out all the cards,
Speaker 1: look deep into the pin points, why is it like that,
Speaker 1: look deep into the assumptions.
Speaker 1: And then start to maybe decide what you want to do.
Speaker 1: Do you want to tackle the pinpoints? Are they within
Speaker 1: your control? Do you want to challenge some assumptions that
Speaker 1: means that you have to do some homework, you do
Speaker 1: some research.
Speaker 1: Or could be you just end up not doing anything
Speaker 1: and just feeling stuck, right? So, Jane, my advice to
Speaker 1: you is be brave, to investigate deeper, don't just kick
Speaker 1: down the can and don't wait anymore. If this is
Speaker 1: really the feeling of being stuck, I don't know for
Speaker 1: how long already, it could be years.
Speaker 1: So maybe this is the right time to do something
Speaker 1: about it. Well Jane, I hope our conversation here has
Speaker 1: been helpful to you. I think you know deep down
Speaker 1: in your gut, what is the best option for you
Speaker 1: and be brave, take your time to get there. If
Speaker 1: like Jane, you have a work-related question, do write into us.
Speaker 1: We are at CNA podcasts at Mediacorp.com.sg. We're also on Spotify,
Speaker 1: Me Listen, Apple Podcasts and YouTube where a video version
Speaker 1: of this is at.
Speaker 1: The team behind the Work It podcast is Hou Pei Ning,
Speaker 1: Juanini Johari, Joan Chan, Saya Win, Allison Jenner, and Shahza Talela.
Speaker 1: Video by Hanida Amin. I'm Gerald and I'm Tiffany. Have
Speaker 1: a great work week ahead and remember, life's too short
Speaker 1: to just focus on work.