WEBVTT - Is the graduate programme a fast track to career success? 0:00:03.130 --> 0:00:05.360 You're listening to a CNA podcast. 0:00:10.109 --> 0:00:13.300 Welcome back to another episode of the Work It podcast. 0:00:13.369 --> 0:00:17.700 It's Tiffany and Gerald, your hosts. Graduation season is coming 0:00:17.700 --> 0:00:22.659 up and a big congrats to potential fresh grads out there. Well, 0:00:22.739 --> 0:00:25.219 this will mark the start of a brand new chapter 0:00:25.219 --> 0:00:29.690 for everyone and it comes with the big question, what's next? 0:00:29.940 --> 0:00:32.979 Well today we're diving into one of the more competitive career. 0:00:33.119 --> 0:00:37.619 The routes that fresh graduates might aim for a graduate program. 0:00:37.790 --> 0:00:40.830 But before we get into what this is, Gerald, what 0:00:40.830 --> 0:00:43.509 was your first job when you graduated and how did 0:00:43.509 --> 0:00:45.950 you land it? Wow, it's going to take me back 0:00:45.950 --> 0:00:47.750 down the memory lane quite a little bit. I think 0:00:47.750 --> 0:00:51.860 I graduated somewhere around 2009 and that was the subprime crisis. 0:00:52.310 --> 0:00:55.508 It was global recession and I remembered my batchmates, they 0:00:55.509 --> 0:00:56.090 were all 0:00:56.520 --> 0:01:00.560 Really worried about not having a job after graduation. So 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:03.040 thankfully for myself, I was offered an opportunity at a 0:01:03.040 --> 0:01:06.470 place where I interned at. Same here. I interned at 0:01:06.470 --> 0:01:10.399 CNA and then when I graduated in 2007, they offered 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:12.910 me a full-time job. I think at that point of time, 0:01:12.940 --> 0:01:16.309 my batch was more of wherever a company offered you, 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:18.080 if you didn't mind it, you would just go into 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:20.360 it and that's why internships are very important for us 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:22.279 at that point of time. Yeah, I think it's still 0:01:22.279 --> 0:01:24.160 very important nowadays, right? We covered that in a different 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:25.110 podcast where 0:01:25.449 --> 0:01:28.039 We had students who are doing multiple internships and I 0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:30.769 think today the path for fresh graduate into a job 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:33.509 is not so straightforward anymore. It's not just finding a job, 0:01:33.680 --> 0:01:38.080 they maybe have internships in between, apprenticeships, short term contracts 0:01:38.080 --> 0:01:40.440 as well. There's lots of ways for them to start 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:43.540 to enter the market and I think somewhere along this mix, 0:01:43.599 --> 0:01:47.309 we do hear this term graduate programs, also known as management, 0:01:47.430 --> 0:01:50.400 associate programs, management traineeships. Yeah, when I first heard the 0:01:50.400 --> 0:01:53.639 term graduate programs, honestly, I thought it was the postgraduate program. 0:01:53.986 --> 0:01:57.097 like furthering your studies, but then I realized, oh, it's not. 0:01:57.266 --> 0:02:01.976 It's a full-time role, lasts around 12 to 24 months 0:02:02.306 --> 0:02:05.857 and they're often marketed to fresh graduates as a career 0:02:05.857 --> 0:02:10.906 acceleration program where you can have advancement opportunities and in 0:02:10.906 --> 0:02:14.986 some cases even direct access to decision makers within the company. 0:02:15.667 --> 0:02:18.787 So it sounds really, really good, really promising, a lot 0:02:18.787 --> 0:02:21.986 of potential if today you're thinking long term for your career, right? 0:02:22.143 --> 0:02:24.733 Management Associate program sounds like it's a thing to go for, 0:02:24.934 --> 0:02:27.934 but such programs really the golden ticket for fresh graduates. 0:02:28.093 --> 0:02:30.333 And if you're considering one, what are some of the 0:02:30.333 --> 0:02:32.253 things you should be thinking about? So to help us 0:02:32.252 --> 0:02:35.532 dig deeper into what graduate programs are designed to do 0:02:35.532 --> 0:02:38.673 and what they actually deliver, we've invited Samuel Beddy, who 0:02:38.673 --> 0:02:41.603 is the ASEAN people consulting leader at Erns and Yang, 0:02:41.813 --> 0:02:45.532 to unpack for us what these structured management associate programs 0:02:45.532 --> 0:02:48.694 actually offer and whether they are worth it. So welcome, Samir. 0:02:48.854 --> 0:02:49.054 I'm 0:02:49.054 --> 0:02:50.413 very excited to be here to talk. 0:02:50.490 --> 0:02:52.960 About one of the most premium programs for 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:57.561 graduates, the premium. OK, let's break it down a little bit. 0:02:57.761 --> 0:03:00.671 What do graduate programs offer that is very different from 0:03:00.671 --> 0:03:02.470 a regular entry level job? 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:05.401 I think the beauty of a graduate program is it 0:03:05.401 --> 0:03:10.281 perfectly brings into the employment landscape. So what it's trying 0:03:10.281 --> 0:03:12.871 to say is from a graduate, you normally get a job, 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:14.800 which is then you move towards employment and then you 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:18.720 work towards the organizational goals that you're striving to fulfill, right? 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:22.169 The graduate program allows you to start your lifelong learning 0:03:22.169 --> 0:03:25.809 journey after your education as well, because now you start learning. 0:03:26.309 --> 0:03:29.369 With the company, you start learning what the company's purpose is. 0:03:29.429 --> 0:03:34.789 You have multidisciplinary experiences. You sometimes contribute to very strategic projects, 0:03:34.869 --> 0:03:38.350 you have access to management, right? So you continue to learn, 0:03:38.389 --> 0:03:40.229 but at the same time you start contributing. So I 0:03:40.229 --> 0:03:43.750 think it's the perfect mix that allows an individual to 0:03:43.750 --> 0:03:46.800 move from learning to employment in a premium form or manner. 0:03:47.190 --> 0:03:49.029 But some people might say, when I started my first job, 0:03:49.110 --> 0:03:50.830 I was also learning, I was picking up the. 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:54.399 as well. So what is the difference between the learning 0:03:54.399 --> 0:03:56.960 that you mentioned earlier on and the learning I did 0:03:56.960 --> 0:03:57.880 when I started my 0:03:57.880 --> 0:03:58.270 work? 0:03:58.479 --> 0:04:01.559 So every new hire that the company has has to 0:04:01.559 --> 0:04:05.220 have an articulated way to help them start contributing, right? 0:04:05.449 --> 0:04:08.199 I think the management associate program or the graduate program 0:04:08.199 --> 0:04:10.679 that we're talking of, has it designed in a little 0:04:10.679 --> 0:04:14.240 more scientific manner, because normally there's a cohort of individuals 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:15.649 that come in, they go through 0:04:15.699 --> 0:04:18.599 That learning journey, there's a bit of peer learning that happens. 0:04:18.850 --> 0:04:23.049 There's clarity not only with the individual supervisor for that 0:04:23.049 --> 0:04:26.040 short stint, but it's also with the entire organization. 0:04:26.928 --> 0:04:29.279 I mean, you use the word premium, my thoughts were, 0:04:29.488 --> 0:04:31.450 if it's so good, why is it not for everybody? 0:04:31.589 --> 0:04:34.649 Shouldn't this be like maybe the opportunity for all new hires? 0:04:34.809 --> 0:04:37.729 So, all new hires need to do learning, need to 0:04:37.730 --> 0:04:40.329 do onboarding, need to understand the organization, right? 0:04:40.678 --> 0:04:42.589 I think this is a cream of the crop kind 0:04:42.589 --> 0:04:45.170 of a program. There are benefits both to an organization 0:04:45.170 --> 0:04:47.820 as well as to employees. From an organization perspective, it 0:04:47.820 --> 0:04:50.299 helps them win the war for talent that has been 0:04:50.299 --> 0:04:52.739 going on for many years now. This helps them attract. 0:04:53.359 --> 0:04:56.510 The best quality talent that they have. So if you 0:04:56.510 --> 0:04:59.980 started offering this to everyone, firstly, an organization would not 0:04:59.980 --> 0:05:02.630 have the likely resources to be able to manage this 0:05:02.630 --> 0:05:05.750 for every hire that they make. This is those hires 0:05:05.750 --> 0:05:08.549 that they believe are going to perform higher and have 0:05:08.549 --> 0:05:10.829 potential as well to be able to do this. This 0:05:10.829 --> 0:05:12.910 doesn't mean that if you join an organization. 0:05:13.005 --> 0:05:15.144 From the normal route, you can achieve those. But in 0:05:15.144 --> 0:05:18.595 terms of the perspective of offering this in a scientific 0:05:18.595 --> 0:05:23.553 multidisciplinary approach, giving individuals the access to management, instilling new 0:05:23.553 --> 0:05:26.024 blood and new thinking to help the organization move forward, 0:05:26.174 --> 0:05:30.174 and also to enable the careers of those management graduates. 0:05:30.714 --> 0:05:32.515 What do organizations look for? 0:05:33.178 --> 0:05:35.919 To determine whether somebody is supposed to be in this 0:05:35.920 --> 0:05:36.230 group. 0:05:36.399 --> 0:05:40.359 The reality is what organizations look for has slightly changed 0:05:40.359 --> 0:05:43.529 over the last few years as well. Right now, what 0:05:43.529 --> 0:05:48.200 organizations primarily look for is resilience, lifelong learning, because you 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.519 need people to invest in this journey, believe that there's 0:05:51.519 --> 0:05:54.160 alignment between the purpose of the organization and the purpose 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:57.720 of those individuals. So the reality is that learning is 0:05:57.720 --> 0:05:59.859 soon going to be the new dollar. That means it's 0:05:59.859 --> 0:06:01.839 actually more important. 0:06:02.238 --> 0:06:05.079 Then the salary, the benefits, the bonus that a company 0:06:05.079 --> 0:06:08.640 can offer you. And this program actually provides learning in 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:12.000 its truest form or manner, which helps you understand it 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:14.600 both from a theoretical as well as a practical perspective 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:18.880 and help you implement it across the various divisions, subdivisions 0:06:19.079 --> 0:06:21.119 that you have access to in the management program, right? 0:06:21.190 --> 0:06:25.720 So this learning opportunity is what actually differentiates this from 0:06:25.959 --> 0:06:27.010 a normal recruit. 0:06:27.399 --> 0:06:30.519 But do you think all of that can be measured? 0:06:31.079 --> 0:06:34.558 At the start when they are selecting these people to 0:06:34.559 --> 0:06:37.519 join the program at an age where maybe they're only 0:06:37.519 --> 0:06:40.529 in their twenties. I mean some people are late bloomers, right? 0:06:40.678 --> 0:06:43.600 Or I would argue that somebody that you select in 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:47.399 your graduate program may be book smart enough to say 0:06:47.399 --> 0:06:50.399 the things you want to hear from them in the interview. 0:06:50.709 --> 0:06:52.640 And they don't turn out to be like that. So 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:55.390 when it comes to these management programs, is it always 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:59.399 going to be a situation where the right people will 0:06:59.399 --> 0:07:00.640 join the program? Tiffany, 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:03.820 you ask a very pertinent question and very difficult to answer. 0:07:04.359 --> 0:07:06.899 The word that I would be wary for is always, 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:08.200 there is no guarantee. 0:07:08.390 --> 0:07:11.380 Or there is no certainty that will always happen. But yes, 0:07:11.700 --> 0:07:15.220 organizations do look for certain qualities, specific competencies or skill sets. 0:07:15.299 --> 0:07:19.660 If you generalize it, lifelong learning, resilience, teamwork, collaboration are 0:07:19.660 --> 0:07:21.779 pretty much some of the areas that they wanted to 0:07:21.779 --> 0:07:24.980 focus on, along with some technical skills and capabilities that 0:07:24.980 --> 0:07:27.579 they would look for, right? The reality is that the 0:07:27.579 --> 0:07:30.380 graduates that go through this program have better access to 0:07:30.380 --> 0:07:34.109 learning opportunities. Now, how they use this access, how they. 0:07:34.619 --> 0:07:37.980 Implemented is what will help differentiate them from someone who 0:07:37.980 --> 0:07:41.299 joins the normal recruitment route. Not to say that someone 0:07:41.299 --> 0:07:44.529 who's normally recruited is ignored by an organization. In fact, 0:07:44.700 --> 0:07:47.579 an organization is invested in that individual as well. So 0:07:47.579 --> 0:07:49.980 does need to give some level of access, some level 0:07:49.980 --> 0:07:52.980 of learning to ensure that the individual is successful as well. 0:07:53.019 --> 0:07:53.440 But then it would 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.500 be harder for them to even try and get to 0:07:56.500 --> 0:07:58.700 that same level with the same access, right? 0:07:59.179 --> 0:08:04.929 They may not have the exposure to the multidisciplinary approach. 0:08:05.100 --> 0:08:08.170 They may not have the same level of understanding of 0:08:08.170 --> 0:08:10.700 the industry in which they operate, which typically a management 0:08:10.700 --> 0:08:13.140 associate program will go through. They may not have the 0:08:13.140 --> 0:08:16.220 access to multiple different business division leaders. 0:08:16.619 --> 0:08:19.589 But this doesn't stop them from wanting that access. In fact, 0:08:19.679 --> 0:08:22.959 if a graduate joins not in the management associate program, 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.480 but joins as a recruiter in an organization, and they 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:29.079 clamor for all those reasons, it's also a proactiveness from 0:08:29.079 --> 0:08:31.799 that individual. So it may go towards their benefit. I 0:08:31.799 --> 0:08:34.869 would like to say it's probably easier if you're in 0:08:34.869 --> 0:08:35.559 the management association. 0:08:35.690 --> 0:08:39.400 Program, but it's not a guarantee for the other recruits 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:41.909 that don't join this program, there's still access to learning, 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:45.580 access to career opportunities and therefore, they can still flourish 0:08:45.580 --> 0:08:46.559 in the organization. 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:49.320 I think I'm also reminded that there are other programs 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:53.320 within the company. There's other leadership programs, management programs for 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:54.719 staff that are existing. 0:08:55.130 --> 0:08:58.059 And this is what Samel was talking about. Employees who 0:08:58.059 --> 0:09:00.319 really want to grow, want to learn, be part of 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:03.140 the management team, but they didn't get through the management 0:09:03.140 --> 0:09:06.140 associate program. So there's supposed to be other pathways within 0:09:06.140 --> 0:09:08.460 the company for existing employees to travel through. 0:09:08.849 --> 0:09:11.590 So I think if a company has multiple programs like this, 0:09:11.599 --> 0:09:13.280 then I think it takes care of all the employees' 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:15.400 needs and not just all the future leaders are going 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:18.549 to come from this one program. I I guess coming 0:09:18.549 --> 0:09:21.760 from the the group of people who are not part 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:24.479 of this management program, we can understand that some of 0:09:24.479 --> 0:09:27.689 them might feel this premium group of people are kind 0:09:27.690 --> 0:09:30.400 of like the white horse, right? They are treated as 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:33.159 very special, they are treated as one day possibly going 0:09:33.159 --> 0:09:35.400 to be my boss and everything. I think it makes 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:36.799 the dynamics a little bit. 0:09:37.039 --> 0:09:40.239 I wouldn't say awkward but different, right? And there's a 0:09:40.239 --> 0:09:42.500 sense that anyone who is part of the graduate program 0:09:42.500 --> 0:09:45.219 might be measured differently. You're always going to be measured 0:09:45.609 --> 0:09:47.770 according to whether you are good enough to be my 0:09:47.770 --> 0:09:51.579 boss one day. So is this sort of program almost 0:09:51.580 --> 0:09:53.309 in a sense kind of 0:09:53.890 --> 0:09:56.409 Setting them up for failure if they don't meet these 0:09:56.409 --> 0:09:56.960 targets. 0:09:57.210 --> 0:09:59.729 I wouldn't think it's setting them up for failure. They 0:09:59.729 --> 0:10:02.489 are hired into certain levels. They're expected to perform at 0:10:02.489 --> 0:10:05.250 the higher end of those levels because they have that 0:10:05.250 --> 0:10:08.728 access and there is that expectation from those employees. But 0:10:08.729 --> 0:10:11.049 at the same time, they are in a loop by 0:10:11.049 --> 0:10:14.210 which they're given consistent and regular feedback. So you really 0:10:14.210 --> 0:10:15.329 find in the management associated 0:10:15.500 --> 0:10:19.150 Program that things go totally off track for individuals because 0:10:19.150 --> 0:10:22.830 the feedback loop is very strong. They're counseled towards ensuring 0:10:22.830 --> 0:10:25.468 that they can achieve the stretch goals that they're all 0:10:25.469 --> 0:10:25.750 part of. 0:10:25.950 --> 0:10:29.390 So after suppose someone goes through the management associate program, 0:10:29.469 --> 0:10:31.349 they've gone through all the experiences, they've got the feedback, 0:10:31.429 --> 0:10:33.909 they've learned a lot. At the end of it, how 0:10:33.909 --> 0:10:36.750 many of them do eventually make it into senior management 0:10:36.750 --> 0:10:40.950 roles and is there an industry benchmark or number that 0:10:40.950 --> 0:10:42.510 defines whether the management program. 0:10:42.780 --> 0:10:43.728 It's effective. So 0:10:43.729 --> 0:10:47.409 I think making into senior management roles is still far 0:10:47.409 --> 0:10:50.209 away for them, right? And they have multiple layers. I 0:10:50.210 --> 0:10:52.728 think the management associate program is a defined program for 0:10:52.729 --> 0:10:56.109 a period of time. Typically between 6 and 2 years, 0:10:56.210 --> 0:10:58.449 depending on the organization and the skill sets that they 0:10:58.450 --> 0:11:02.049 are trying to help the individuals acquire. Once they graduate 0:11:02.049 --> 0:11:05.799 from them, they move into roles that test them, stretch them, 0:11:05.929 --> 0:11:08.489 that allow them to showcase their learning and to help the. 0:11:08.577 --> 0:11:11.966 Organizations succeed in a very competitive environment. One of the 0:11:11.966 --> 0:11:15.127 measures that, you know, organizations could use to see if 0:11:15.127 --> 0:11:19.706 these programs are effective is the retention rate of these graduates, 0:11:19.807 --> 0:11:22.206 because again, if you are hiring cream of the crop 0:11:22.206 --> 0:11:24.687 that goes through this program with you, it's not that 0:11:24.687 --> 0:11:28.117 you've hired them for life. They also have a marketability 0:11:28.117 --> 0:11:31.045 in the external environment. So it's important for organizations to 0:11:31.046 --> 0:11:34.327 continually showcase uh the fact that these individuals 0:11:34.374 --> 0:11:37.193 are important to their success. So retention rate is critical. 0:11:37.443 --> 0:11:39.604 One way of measuring this is to see whether these 0:11:39.604 --> 0:11:42.763 graduates are able to achieve the stretch expectations that you 0:11:42.763 --> 0:11:45.882 have set for them in performance. And then over a 0:11:45.883 --> 0:11:49.044 period of time, see whether they are able to move 0:11:49.044 --> 0:11:52.823 across the career hierarchy maybe faster or in an accelerated 0:11:52.823 --> 0:11:56.554 manner than some of their peers. From an individual perspective, 0:11:56.614 --> 0:12:00.124 I would say stretch expectations for them may cause 0:12:00.171 --> 0:12:02.921 A little bit of stress, but sometimes the stress and 0:12:02.921 --> 0:12:06.481 anxiety allows you to have adrenaline flowing and deliver better 0:12:06.481 --> 0:12:09.030 than average outcomes and create exceptional outcomes. 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:14.070 Is it always a guarantee that after the traineeship, you 0:12:14.070 --> 0:12:17.870 would get a full-time position, a permanent position in the company? 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:20.960 Because I've heard of cases where you can complete the 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:23.920 management associate program and then you're dropped. You're dropped off 0:12:23.921 --> 0:12:25.670 and you're not even employed. Yeah. 0:12:26.239 --> 0:12:29.520 So, if your performance levels in the management associate program 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:33.580 are at expectations, more than likely, I'd say it's nearly 0:12:33.580 --> 0:12:36.200 a given that you will find a role in the organization. 0:12:36.590 --> 0:12:39.609 But having said that, there may be certain roles in 0:12:39.609 --> 0:12:43.000 the organization that they may offer to the management associate 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:47.119 program graduates, and they may not be the same preferences 0:12:47.450 --> 0:12:49.848 from the individuals. For example, you may want a role 0:12:49.849 --> 0:12:53.010 in sales, but there's only a role available in marketing. So, reality, 0:12:53.090 --> 0:12:56.010 there may be differences in the preferences for individuals, for 0:12:56.010 --> 0:13:01.209 certain global organizations that run this across regions globally as well. 0:13:01.219 --> 0:13:02.439 There may be different roles in 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:05.320 markets that you may be offered, which may not align 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:07.840 with what the individuals may want. So it's always a 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:10.468 supply and demand rationale that we need to consider. 0:13:10.739 --> 0:13:14.109 And is a promotion always guaranteed and will your promotion 0:13:14.109 --> 0:13:16.799 be fast tracked when you compare it with somebody who 0:13:16.799 --> 0:13:19.239 is hired on a normal recruitment role? 0:13:19.479 --> 0:13:21.640 So again, I go back to the point that having 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:25.400 gone through this program, you should have a better appreciation 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.319 of what the industry in which the organization operates. 0:13:28.729 --> 0:13:31.859 The strength of the organization, the purpose of the organization, 0:13:31.900 --> 0:13:34.609 the way it engages with its customers, the way it 0:13:34.609 --> 0:13:37.819 makes money. So you have a very diverse view of 0:13:37.820 --> 0:13:41.780 that organization. And thus, I think this is about having 0:13:41.780 --> 0:13:43.979 access to that and therefore being able to grow your 0:13:43.979 --> 0:13:46.940 career at a faster rate than maybe an individual that 0:13:46.940 --> 0:13:50.260 went through it in a short 1 to 3 month onboarding, 0:13:50.380 --> 0:13:52.979 where they may not have that level of access. They 0:13:52.979 --> 0:13:55.500 may understand everything, but they don't have the access to 0:13:55.500 --> 0:13:58.330 various divisions, various senior managers, and therefore, 0:13:59.039 --> 0:14:02.729 Because of the access, you are expected to understand the 0:14:02.729 --> 0:14:05.969 organization a lot better and therefore deliver performance at a 0:14:05.969 --> 0:14:08.569 much higher level. And this is what then accelerates the 0:14:08.570 --> 0:14:09.229 career growth. 0:14:10.130 --> 0:14:12.140 What about salaries though? I think people will be very 0:14:12.140 --> 0:14:14.439 interested in hearing this. Are they on a different track? 0:14:14.609 --> 0:14:16.690 Do they start with a higher salary? 0:14:17.090 --> 0:14:20.250 There are organizations that offer similar salary to the. 0:14:20.349 --> 0:14:23.090 graduates they hire not on the program versus the ones 0:14:23.090 --> 0:14:26.169 they hire on the program, but they could start with 0:14:26.169 --> 0:14:28.809 a higher salary. Like I said, again, the expectation to 0:14:28.809 --> 0:14:31.409 move career levels is higher. So over time, if that 0:14:31.409 --> 0:14:33.849 does come through, there's a difference in the salary numbers 0:14:33.849 --> 0:14:35.929 that do come through because people are performing at a 0:14:35.929 --> 0:14:38.489 higher level or they are growing their careers at a 0:14:38.489 --> 0:14:39.159 faster rate. 0:14:39.369 --> 0:14:41.929 I think also that's say a program is 23 years long. 0:14:42.229 --> 0:14:44.960 The opportunity cost of being on a management program, right. 0:14:44.969 --> 0:14:48.000 A typical employee will have clocked 3 years of solid 0:14:48.409 --> 0:14:50.890 experiences within the department, whereas the management associate goes through 0:14:50.890 --> 0:14:54.359 6 months each time, they don't really have the depth. Yeah, 0:14:54.369 --> 0:14:57.479 so perhaps that's what the higher salary can actually compensate for. 0:14:57.729 --> 0:15:00.090 But then I guess it doesn't sound fair, right? Because 0:15:00.090 --> 0:15:02.929 you don't have the depth in terms of being in 0:15:02.929 --> 0:15:05.630 individual departments for 6 months. It just looks like, yeah, 0:15:05.690 --> 0:15:08.890 you get a sense of the whole business operation, but 0:15:08.890 --> 0:15:11.000 you don't have depth, but at the same time, 0:15:11.655 --> 0:15:14.395 salary is always accelerated and growing at a faster pace 0:15:14.395 --> 0:15:17.494 than everybody else. Where is the buy-in from the rest 0:15:17.494 --> 0:15:20.474 of the people within the company that this program is 0:15:20.474 --> 0:15:23.875 a program that benefits not just the entire company, but 0:15:23.875 --> 0:15:26.955 benefits the average worker in the long term if this 0:15:26.955 --> 0:15:30.015 person is on an accelerated program. In my opinion, I 0:15:30.015 --> 0:15:32.505 guess when you are paying someone a little bit more, 0:15:32.674 --> 0:15:35.075 there are multiple reasons why for the employee itself on 0:15:35.075 --> 0:15:37.434 the management program having to uproot every time and relearn 0:15:37.434 --> 0:15:39.594 and learn, it's a little bit stressful. That's one, of course, 0:15:39.604 --> 0:15:40.955 and expectations to perform. 0:15:41.239 --> 0:15:44.260 People view you differently. They expect you to perform at 0:15:44.260 --> 0:15:48.219 higher levels. You're expected to react faster, change faster, and 0:15:48.219 --> 0:15:52.059 all this working towards hopefully the potential of being stretched 0:15:52.059 --> 0:15:55.500 into a certain leadership position in the future. So I 0:15:55.500 --> 0:15:58.580 think when you look at everything in total, then that's 0:15:58.580 --> 0:15:59.700 why they have to pay more. 0:15:59.780 --> 0:16:00.260 The beauty 0:16:00.260 --> 0:16:03.739 of the program lies in the breadth of experience they 0:16:03.739 --> 0:16:07.859 provide to the individuals, right? But the real success comes 0:16:07.859 --> 0:16:09.780 once they graduate out of the program and are in 0:16:09.780 --> 0:16:10.580 a full-time job. 0:16:11.020 --> 0:16:13.580 Where they expected to show their depth in that function 0:16:13.580 --> 0:16:17.169 in which they're working in. So, for example, no organization 0:16:17.539 --> 0:16:19.630 achieves what they want to achieve by one particular function. 0:16:19.669 --> 0:16:23.260 It's always a combination of multiple functions that the organization has. 0:16:23.340 --> 0:16:25.340 So if you're on sales, you need to understand what 0:16:25.340 --> 0:16:29.280 marketing does. You need to understand what corporate services, finance, HR, 0:16:29.580 --> 0:16:32.380 IT kind of delivers. You need to understand what's the 0:16:32.380 --> 0:16:36.179 brand positioning of the organization. So, it's that depth that 0:16:36.179 --> 0:16:36.969 allows them to be more 0:16:37.015 --> 0:16:39.606 Successful in the job that they operate in. It's that 0:16:39.606 --> 0:16:41.645 bread that they get. So I think the reality of 0:16:41.645 --> 0:16:44.005 the rubber hits the road once they actually are out 0:16:44.005 --> 0:16:46.835 of the program and start contributing in a full-time job. 0:16:47.286 --> 0:16:51.176 I think this conversation about the management program makes me 0:16:51.176 --> 0:16:54.245 start to think that actually our expectations of a person 0:16:54.245 --> 0:16:57.195 on this program becoming a leader is not that direct, 0:16:57.205 --> 0:16:57.226 you know. 0:16:58.182 --> 0:17:01.111 there's actually a long distance. Once you finish the program, 0:17:01.151 --> 0:17:03.752 there's still a lot you have to do before you 0:17:03.752 --> 0:17:05.911 can make your way up there. So I think the 0:17:05.911 --> 0:17:08.150 perception that we connect these two things together could be 0:17:08.151 --> 0:17:11.071 a little bit too close and too tight, right? Or 0:17:11.071 --> 0:17:14.472 maybe we should really look at it as employers, number one, 0:17:14.552 --> 0:17:16.612 trying to look out for the best talent first and 0:17:16.612 --> 0:17:19.192 then trying to harness that potential, stretch them. 0:17:19.569 --> 0:17:21.979 And those who are able to be stretched them maybe 0:17:21.979 --> 0:17:24.589 see what happens. We know that for the majority of 0:17:24.589 --> 0:17:27.589 the employees, when they see a management associate, those perceptions 0:17:27.589 --> 0:17:30.339 hang very quickly. That's why I thought this is something 0:17:30.339 --> 0:17:32.739 that maybe we should really think a little bit deeper, 0:17:33.109 --> 0:17:35.709 a little bit more. Does every management associate really become 0:17:35.709 --> 0:17:38.270 a leader at the end? And what sort of leadership 0:17:38.270 --> 0:17:40.670 capabilities do they bring to the table as well? Let's 0:17:40.670 --> 0:17:42.719 say for example, if I'm 25 and I don't have 0:17:42.719 --> 0:17:45.550 a healthy mindset of what leadership looks like. 0:17:45.890 --> 0:17:48.909 Then I would think to myself, I will get to 0:17:48.910 --> 0:17:51.650 department head by the time I'm 30 and then I 0:17:51.650 --> 0:17:54.188 will tell you guys what you guys have to do 0:17:54.189 --> 0:17:55.938 and how you guys have to think because none of 0:17:55.939 --> 0:17:57.770 you are as smart as me. And then there are 0:17:57.770 --> 0:18:00.448 those where they have a very healthy mindset of leadership 0:18:00.449 --> 0:18:03.010 where they see it as a servant leadership and they 0:18:03.010 --> 0:18:06.119 are there to serve the company, help people to achieve 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:08.770 the best in their career health. So I think that's 0:18:08.770 --> 0:18:09.170 where 0:18:09.530 --> 0:18:13.409 It's not easy trying to not just see out the 0:18:13.410 --> 0:18:16.319 people with the right mindset, but to also as you said, 0:18:16.609 --> 0:18:19.319 give them the right feedback along the way to say, hey, 0:18:19.449 --> 0:18:21.530 you know what, we need to stretch you in this 0:18:21.530 --> 0:18:24.449 area or we need to challenge certain mindsets that you 0:18:24.449 --> 0:18:26.119 have of what leadership looks like. 0:18:26.369 --> 0:18:31.410 Organizations provide these management graduates with the right to access 0:18:31.410 --> 0:18:34.339 to even senior leaders so that they understand how leaders 0:18:34.339 --> 0:18:35.849 operate in that organization. 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:39.160 They can pick up certain skills by which they can 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:43.560 manage difficult circumstances, manage people, deal with peers, deal with 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:45.800 people who are junior to them as well as deal upwards. 0:18:45.839 --> 0:18:49.159 You know, the learning model has been fairly well researched 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:53.040 and pulled through. Actually, 70% of the learning that people 0:18:53.040 --> 0:18:54.280 get are on the job. 0:18:54.819 --> 0:18:57.979 So, these graduates are doing a job and therefore they 0:18:58.310 --> 0:19:00.790 get that learning. 20% of that learning they get is 0:19:00.790 --> 0:19:04.389 through mentoring, to counseling, to coaching, and it's only 10% 0:19:04.390 --> 0:19:07.339 that comes in through formal programs that they want to run. So, 0:19:07.510 --> 0:19:09.149 the management program provides all of this. 0:19:09.530 --> 0:19:13.979 The 20% becomes enlarged because you have more mentors, more counselors, 0:19:14.140 --> 0:19:17.208 more coaches. The 70% on the job is again very 0:19:17.209 --> 0:19:19.930 stretched because it could be multidisciplinary in nature. 0:19:20.660 --> 0:19:22.380 I mean, it sounds definitely that you are a big 0:19:22.380 --> 0:19:26.180 fan of this program. What do you think is still 0:19:26.180 --> 0:19:29.619 lacking when it comes to this management associate program and 0:19:29.619 --> 0:19:32.900