1 00:00:03,130 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast. 2 00:00:10,109 --> 00:00:13,300 Speaker 1: Welcome back to another episode of the Work It podcast. 3 00:00:13,369 --> 00:00:17,700 Speaker 1: It's Tiffany and Gerald, your hosts. Graduation season is coming 4 00:00:17,700 --> 00:00:22,659 Speaker 1: up and a big congrats to potential fresh grads out there. Well, 5 00:00:22,739 --> 00:00:25,219 Speaker 1: this will mark the start of a brand new chapter 6 00:00:25,219 --> 00:00:29,690 Speaker 1: for everyone and it comes with the big question, what's next? 7 00:00:29,940 --> 00:00:32,979 Speaker 1: Well today we're diving into one of the more competitive career. 8 00:00:33,119 --> 00:00:37,619 Speaker 1: The routes that fresh graduates might aim for a graduate program. 9 00:00:37,790 --> 00:00:40,830 Speaker 1: But before we get into what this is, Gerald, what 10 00:00:40,830 --> 00:00:43,509 Speaker 1: was your first job when you graduated and how did 11 00:00:43,509 --> 00:00:45,950 Speaker 1: you land it? Wow, it's going to take me back 12 00:00:45,950 --> 00:00:47,750 Speaker 1: down the memory lane quite a little bit. I think 13 00:00:47,750 --> 00:00:51,860 Speaker 1: I graduated somewhere around 2009 and that was the subprime crisis. 14 00:00:52,310 --> 00:00:55,508 Speaker 1: It was global recession and I remembered my batchmates, they 15 00:00:55,509 --> 00:00:56,090 Speaker 1: were all 16 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 1: Really worried about not having a job after graduation. So 17 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,040 Speaker 1: thankfully for myself, I was offered an opportunity at a 18 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,470 Speaker 1: place where I interned at. Same here. I interned at 19 00:01:06,470 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 1: CNA and then when I graduated in 2007, they offered 20 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:12,910 Speaker 1: me a full-time job. I think at that point of time, 21 00:01:12,940 --> 00:01:16,309 Speaker 1: my batch was more of wherever a company offered you, 22 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: if you didn't mind it, you would just go into 23 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: it and that's why internships are very important for us 24 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:22,279 Speaker 1: at that point of time. Yeah, I think it's still 25 00:01:22,279 --> 00:01:24,160 Speaker 1: very important nowadays, right? We covered that in a different 26 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:25,110 Speaker 1: podcast where 27 00:01:25,449 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: We had students who are doing multiple internships and I 28 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:30,769 Speaker 1: think today the path for fresh graduate into a job 29 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:33,509 Speaker 1: is not so straightforward anymore. It's not just finding a job, 30 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: they maybe have internships in between, apprenticeships, short term contracts 31 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: as well. There's lots of ways for them to start 32 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:43,540 Speaker 1: to enter the market and I think somewhere along this mix, 33 00:01:43,599 --> 00:01:47,309 Speaker 1: we do hear this term graduate programs, also known as management, 34 00:01:47,430 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 1: associate programs, management traineeships. Yeah, when I first heard the 35 00:01:50,400 --> 00:01:53,639 Speaker 1: term graduate programs, honestly, I thought it was the postgraduate program. 36 00:01:53,986 --> 00:01:57,097 Speaker 1: like furthering your studies, but then I realized, oh, it's not. 37 00:01:57,266 --> 00:02:01,976 Speaker 1: It's a full-time role, lasts around 12 to 24 months 38 00:02:02,306 --> 00:02:05,857 Speaker 1: and they're often marketed to fresh graduates as a career 39 00:02:05,857 --> 00:02:10,906 Speaker 1: acceleration program where you can have advancement opportunities and in 40 00:02:10,906 --> 00:02:14,986 Speaker 1: some cases even direct access to decision makers within the company. 41 00:02:15,667 --> 00:02:18,787 Speaker 1: So it sounds really, really good, really promising, a lot 42 00:02:18,787 --> 00:02:21,986 Speaker 1: of potential if today you're thinking long term for your career, right? 43 00:02:22,143 --> 00:02:24,733 Speaker 1: Management Associate program sounds like it's a thing to go for, 44 00:02:24,934 --> 00:02:27,934 Speaker 1: but such programs really the golden ticket for fresh graduates. 45 00:02:28,093 --> 00:02:30,333 Speaker 1: And if you're considering one, what are some of the 46 00:02:30,333 --> 00:02:32,253 Speaker 1: things you should be thinking about? So to help us 47 00:02:32,252 --> 00:02:35,532 Speaker 1: dig deeper into what graduate programs are designed to do 48 00:02:35,532 --> 00:02:38,673 Speaker 1: and what they actually deliver, we've invited Samuel Beddy, who 49 00:02:38,673 --> 00:02:41,603 Speaker 1: is the ASEAN people consulting leader at Erns and Yang, 50 00:02:41,813 --> 00:02:45,532 Speaker 1: to unpack for us what these structured management associate programs 51 00:02:45,532 --> 00:02:48,694 Speaker 1: actually offer and whether they are worth it. So welcome, Samir. 52 00:02:48,854 --> 00:02:49,054 Speaker 2: I'm 53 00:02:49,054 --> 00:02:50,413 Speaker 2: very excited to be here to talk. 54 00:02:50,490 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 2: About one of the most premium programs for 55 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:57,561 Speaker 1: graduates, the premium. OK, let's break it down a little bit. 56 00:02:57,761 --> 00:03:00,671 Speaker 1: What do graduate programs offer that is very different from 57 00:03:00,671 --> 00:03:02,470 Speaker 1: a regular entry level job? 58 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,401 Speaker 2: I think the beauty of a graduate program is it 59 00:03:05,401 --> 00:03:10,281 Speaker 2: perfectly brings into the employment landscape. So what it's trying 60 00:03:10,281 --> 00:03:12,871 Speaker 2: to say is from a graduate, you normally get a job, 61 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 2: which is then you move towards employment and then you 62 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 2: work towards the organizational goals that you're striving to fulfill, right? 63 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,169 Speaker 2: The graduate program allows you to start your lifelong learning 64 00:03:22,169 --> 00:03:25,809 Speaker 2: journey after your education as well, because now you start learning. 65 00:03:26,309 --> 00:03:29,369 Speaker 2: With the company, you start learning what the company's purpose is. 66 00:03:29,429 --> 00:03:34,789 Speaker 2: You have multidisciplinary experiences. You sometimes contribute to very strategic projects, 67 00:03:34,869 --> 00:03:38,350 Speaker 2: you have access to management, right? So you continue to learn, 68 00:03:38,389 --> 00:03:40,229 Speaker 2: but at the same time you start contributing. So I 69 00:03:40,229 --> 00:03:43,750 Speaker 2: think it's the perfect mix that allows an individual to 70 00:03:43,750 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 2: move from learning to employment in a premium form or manner. 71 00:03:47,190 --> 00:03:49,029 Speaker 1: But some people might say, when I started my first job, 72 00:03:49,110 --> 00:03:50,830 Speaker 1: I was also learning, I was picking up the. 73 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,399 Speaker 1: as well. So what is the difference between the learning 74 00:03:54,399 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: that you mentioned earlier on and the learning I did 75 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: when I started my 76 00:03:57,880 --> 00:03:58,270 Speaker 1: work? 77 00:03:58,479 --> 00:04:01,559 Speaker 2: So every new hire that the company has has to 78 00:04:01,559 --> 00:04:05,220 Speaker 2: have an articulated way to help them start contributing, right? 79 00:04:05,449 --> 00:04:08,199 Speaker 2: I think the management associate program or the graduate program 80 00:04:08,199 --> 00:04:10,679 Speaker 2: that we're talking of, has it designed in a little 81 00:04:10,679 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 2: more scientific manner, because normally there's a cohort of individuals 82 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:15,649 Speaker 2: that come in, they go through 83 00:04:15,699 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 2: That learning journey, there's a bit of peer learning that happens. 84 00:04:18,850 --> 00:04:23,049 Speaker 2: There's clarity not only with the individual supervisor for that 85 00:04:23,049 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 2: short stint, but it's also with the entire organization. 86 00:04:26,928 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: I mean, you use the word premium, my thoughts were, 87 00:04:29,488 --> 00:04:31,450 Speaker 1: if it's so good, why is it not for everybody? 88 00:04:31,589 --> 00:04:34,649 Speaker 1: Shouldn't this be like maybe the opportunity for all new hires? 89 00:04:34,809 --> 00:04:37,729 Speaker 2: So, all new hires need to do learning, need to 90 00:04:37,730 --> 00:04:40,329 Speaker 2: do onboarding, need to understand the organization, right? 91 00:04:40,678 --> 00:04:42,589 Speaker 2: I think this is a cream of the crop kind 92 00:04:42,589 --> 00:04:45,170 Speaker 2: of a program. There are benefits both to an organization 93 00:04:45,170 --> 00:04:47,820 Speaker 2: as well as to employees. From an organization perspective, it 94 00:04:47,820 --> 00:04:50,299 Speaker 2: helps them win the war for talent that has been 95 00:04:50,299 --> 00:04:52,739 Speaker 2: going on for many years now. This helps them attract. 96 00:04:53,359 --> 00:04:56,510 Speaker 2: The best quality talent that they have. So if you 97 00:04:56,510 --> 00:04:59,980 Speaker 2: started offering this to everyone, firstly, an organization would not 98 00:04:59,980 --> 00:05:02,630 Speaker 2: have the likely resources to be able to manage this 99 00:05:02,630 --> 00:05:05,750 Speaker 2: for every hire that they make. This is those hires 100 00:05:05,750 --> 00:05:08,549 Speaker 2: that they believe are going to perform higher and have 101 00:05:08,549 --> 00:05:10,829 Speaker 2: potential as well to be able to do this. This 102 00:05:10,829 --> 00:05:12,910 Speaker 2: doesn't mean that if you join an organization. 103 00:05:13,005 --> 00:05:15,144 Speaker 2: From the normal route, you can achieve those. But in 104 00:05:15,144 --> 00:05:18,595 Speaker 2: terms of the perspective of offering this in a scientific 105 00:05:18,595 --> 00:05:23,553 Speaker 2: multidisciplinary approach, giving individuals the access to management, instilling new 106 00:05:23,553 --> 00:05:26,024 Speaker 2: blood and new thinking to help the organization move forward, 107 00:05:26,174 --> 00:05:30,174 Speaker 2: and also to enable the careers of those management graduates. 108 00:05:30,714 --> 00:05:32,515 Speaker 1: What do organizations look for? 109 00:05:33,178 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 1: To determine whether somebody is supposed to be in this 110 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:36,230 Speaker 1: group. 111 00:05:36,399 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 2: The reality is what organizations look for has slightly changed 112 00:05:40,359 --> 00:05:43,529 Speaker 2: over the last few years as well. Right now, what 113 00:05:43,529 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 2: organizations primarily look for is resilience, lifelong learning, because you 114 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,519 Speaker 2: need people to invest in this journey, believe that there's 115 00:05:51,519 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 2: alignment between the purpose of the organization and the purpose 116 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 2: of those individuals. So the reality is that learning is 117 00:05:57,720 --> 00:05:59,859 Speaker 2: soon going to be the new dollar. That means it's 118 00:05:59,859 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 2: actually more important. 119 00:06:02,238 --> 00:06:05,079 Speaker 2: Then the salary, the benefits, the bonus that a company 120 00:06:05,079 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 2: can offer you. And this program actually provides learning in 121 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: its truest form or manner, which helps you understand it 122 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 2: both from a theoretical as well as a practical perspective 123 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 2: and help you implement it across the various divisions, subdivisions 124 00:06:19,079 --> 00:06:21,119 Speaker 2: that you have access to in the management program, right? 125 00:06:21,190 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 2: So this learning opportunity is what actually differentiates this from 126 00:06:25,959 --> 00:06:27,010 Speaker 2: a normal recruit. 127 00:06:27,399 --> 00:06:30,519 Speaker 1: But do you think all of that can be measured? 128 00:06:31,079 --> 00:06:34,558 Speaker 1: At the start when they are selecting these people to 129 00:06:34,559 --> 00:06:37,519 Speaker 1: join the program at an age where maybe they're only 130 00:06:37,519 --> 00:06:40,529 Speaker 1: in their twenties. I mean some people are late bloomers, right? 131 00:06:40,678 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: Or I would argue that somebody that you select in 132 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:47,399 Speaker 1: your graduate program may be book smart enough to say 133 00:06:47,399 --> 00:06:50,399 Speaker 1: the things you want to hear from them in the interview. 134 00:06:50,709 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: And they don't turn out to be like that. So 135 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,390 Speaker 1: when it comes to these management programs, is it always 136 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,399 Speaker 1: going to be a situation where the right people will 137 00:06:59,399 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: join the program? Tiffany, 138 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,820 Speaker 2: you ask a very pertinent question and very difficult to answer. 139 00:07:04,359 --> 00:07:06,899 Speaker 2: The word that I would be wary for is always, 140 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 2: there is no guarantee. 141 00:07:08,390 --> 00:07:11,380 Speaker 2: Or there is no certainty that will always happen. But yes, 142 00:07:11,700 --> 00:07:15,220 Speaker 2: organizations do look for certain qualities, specific competencies or skill sets. 143 00:07:15,299 --> 00:07:19,660 Speaker 2: If you generalize it, lifelong learning, resilience, teamwork, collaboration are 144 00:07:19,660 --> 00:07:21,779 Speaker 2: pretty much some of the areas that they wanted to 145 00:07:21,779 --> 00:07:24,980 Speaker 2: focus on, along with some technical skills and capabilities that 146 00:07:24,980 --> 00:07:27,579 Speaker 2: they would look for, right? The reality is that the 147 00:07:27,579 --> 00:07:30,380 Speaker 2: graduates that go through this program have better access to 148 00:07:30,380 --> 00:07:34,109 Speaker 2: learning opportunities. Now, how they use this access, how they. 149 00:07:34,619 --> 00:07:37,980 Speaker 2: Implemented is what will help differentiate them from someone who 150 00:07:37,980 --> 00:07:41,299 Speaker 2: joins the normal recruitment route. Not to say that someone 151 00:07:41,299 --> 00:07:44,529 Speaker 2: who's normally recruited is ignored by an organization. In fact, 152 00:07:44,700 --> 00:07:47,579 Speaker 2: an organization is invested in that individual as well. So 153 00:07:47,579 --> 00:07:49,980 Speaker 2: does need to give some level of access, some level 154 00:07:49,980 --> 00:07:52,980 Speaker 2: of learning to ensure that the individual is successful as well. 155 00:07:53,019 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: But then it would 156 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,500 Speaker 1: be harder for them to even try and get to 157 00:07:56,500 --> 00:07:58,700 Speaker 1: that same level with the same access, right? 158 00:07:59,179 --> 00:08:04,929 Speaker 2: They may not have the exposure to the multidisciplinary approach. 159 00:08:05,100 --> 00:08:08,170 Speaker 2: They may not have the same level of understanding of 160 00:08:08,170 --> 00:08:10,700 Speaker 2: the industry in which they operate, which typically a management 161 00:08:10,700 --> 00:08:13,140 Speaker 2: associate program will go through. They may not have the 162 00:08:13,140 --> 00:08:16,220 Speaker 2: access to multiple different business division leaders. 163 00:08:16,619 --> 00:08:19,589 Speaker 2: But this doesn't stop them from wanting that access. In fact, 164 00:08:19,679 --> 00:08:22,959 Speaker 2: if a graduate joins not in the management associate program, 165 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 2: but joins as a recruiter in an organization, and they 166 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:29,079 Speaker 2: clamor for all those reasons, it's also a proactiveness from 167 00:08:29,079 --> 00:08:31,799 Speaker 2: that individual. So it may go towards their benefit. I 168 00:08:31,799 --> 00:08:34,869 Speaker 2: would like to say it's probably easier if you're in 169 00:08:34,869 --> 00:08:35,559 Speaker 2: the management association. 170 00:08:35,690 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 2: Program, but it's not a guarantee for the other recruits 171 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:41,909 Speaker 2: that don't join this program, there's still access to learning, 172 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,580 Speaker 2: access to career opportunities and therefore, they can still flourish 173 00:08:45,580 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 2: in the organization. 174 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 1: I think I'm also reminded that there are other programs 175 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 1: within the company. There's other leadership programs, management programs for 176 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:54,719 Speaker 1: staff that are existing. 177 00:08:55,130 --> 00:08:58,059 Speaker 1: And this is what Samel was talking about. Employees who 178 00:08:58,059 --> 00:09:00,319 Speaker 1: really want to grow, want to learn, be part of 179 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,140 Speaker 1: the management team, but they didn't get through the management 180 00:09:03,140 --> 00:09:06,140 Speaker 1: associate program. So there's supposed to be other pathways within 181 00:09:06,140 --> 00:09:08,460 Speaker 1: the company for existing employees to travel through. 182 00:09:08,849 --> 00:09:11,590 Speaker 1: So I think if a company has multiple programs like this, 183 00:09:11,599 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: then I think it takes care of all the employees' 184 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: needs and not just all the future leaders are going 185 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,549 Speaker 1: to come from this one program. I I guess coming 186 00:09:18,549 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: from the the group of people who are not part 187 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,479 Speaker 1: of this management program, we can understand that some of 188 00:09:24,479 --> 00:09:27,689 Speaker 1: them might feel this premium group of people are kind 189 00:09:27,690 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: of like the white horse, right? They are treated as 190 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,159 Speaker 1: very special, they are treated as one day possibly going 191 00:09:33,159 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: to be my boss and everything. I think it makes 192 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:36,799 Speaker 1: the dynamics a little bit. 193 00:09:37,039 --> 00:09:40,239 Speaker 1: I wouldn't say awkward but different, right? And there's a 194 00:09:40,239 --> 00:09:42,500 Speaker 1: sense that anyone who is part of the graduate program 195 00:09:42,500 --> 00:09:45,219 Speaker 1: might be measured differently. You're always going to be measured 196 00:09:45,609 --> 00:09:47,770 Speaker 1: according to whether you are good enough to be my 197 00:09:47,770 --> 00:09:51,579 Speaker 1: boss one day. So is this sort of program almost 198 00:09:51,580 --> 00:09:53,309 Speaker 1: in a sense kind of 199 00:09:53,890 --> 00:09:56,409 Speaker 1: Setting them up for failure if they don't meet these 200 00:09:56,409 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 1: targets. 201 00:09:57,210 --> 00:09:59,729 Speaker 2: I wouldn't think it's setting them up for failure. They 202 00:09:59,729 --> 00:10:02,489 Speaker 2: are hired into certain levels. They're expected to perform at 203 00:10:02,489 --> 00:10:05,250 Speaker 2: the higher end of those levels because they have that 204 00:10:05,250 --> 00:10:08,728 Speaker 2: access and there is that expectation from those employees. But 205 00:10:08,729 --> 00:10:11,049 Speaker 2: at the same time, they are in a loop by 206 00:10:11,049 --> 00:10:14,210 Speaker 2: which they're given consistent and regular feedback. So you really 207 00:10:14,210 --> 00:10:15,329 Speaker 2: find in the management associated 208 00:10:15,500 --> 00:10:19,150 Speaker 2: Program that things go totally off track for individuals because 209 00:10:19,150 --> 00:10:22,830 Speaker 2: the feedback loop is very strong. They're counseled towards ensuring 210 00:10:22,830 --> 00:10:25,468 Speaker 2: that they can achieve the stretch goals that they're all 211 00:10:25,469 --> 00:10:25,750 Speaker 2: part of. 212 00:10:25,950 --> 00:10:29,390 Speaker 1: So after suppose someone goes through the management associate program, 213 00:10:29,469 --> 00:10:31,349 Speaker 1: they've gone through all the experiences, they've got the feedback, 214 00:10:31,429 --> 00:10:33,909 Speaker 1: they've learned a lot. At the end of it, how 215 00:10:33,909 --> 00:10:36,750 Speaker 1: many of them do eventually make it into senior management 216 00:10:36,750 --> 00:10:40,950 Speaker 1: roles and is there an industry benchmark or number that 217 00:10:40,950 --> 00:10:42,510 Speaker 1: defines whether the management program. 218 00:10:42,780 --> 00:10:43,728 Speaker 1: It's effective. So 219 00:10:43,729 --> 00:10:47,409 Speaker 2: I think making into senior management roles is still far 220 00:10:47,409 --> 00:10:50,209 Speaker 2: away for them, right? And they have multiple layers. I 221 00:10:50,210 --> 00:10:52,728 Speaker 2: think the management associate program is a defined program for 222 00:10:52,729 --> 00:10:56,109 Speaker 2: a period of time. Typically between 6 and 2 years, 223 00:10:56,210 --> 00:10:58,449 Speaker 2: depending on the organization and the skill sets that they 224 00:10:58,450 --> 00:11:02,049 Speaker 2: are trying to help the individuals acquire. Once they graduate 225 00:11:02,049 --> 00:11:05,799 Speaker 2: from them, they move into roles that test them, stretch them, 226 00:11:05,929 --> 00:11:08,489 Speaker 2: that allow them to showcase their learning and to help the. 227 00:11:08,577 --> 00:11:11,966 Speaker 2: Organizations succeed in a very competitive environment. One of the 228 00:11:11,966 --> 00:11:15,127 Speaker 2: measures that, you know, organizations could use to see if 229 00:11:15,127 --> 00:11:19,706 Speaker 2: these programs are effective is the retention rate of these graduates, 230 00:11:19,807 --> 00:11:22,206 Speaker 2: because again, if you are hiring cream of the crop 231 00:11:22,206 --> 00:11:24,687 Speaker 2: that goes through this program with you, it's not that 232 00:11:24,687 --> 00:11:28,117 Speaker 2: you've hired them for life. They also have a marketability 233 00:11:28,117 --> 00:11:31,045 Speaker 2: in the external environment. So it's important for organizations to 234 00:11:31,046 --> 00:11:34,327 Speaker 2: continually showcase uh the fact that these individuals 235 00:11:34,374 --> 00:11:37,193 Speaker 2: are important to their success. So retention rate is critical. 236 00:11:37,443 --> 00:11:39,604 Speaker 2: One way of measuring this is to see whether these 237 00:11:39,604 --> 00:11:42,763 Speaker 2: graduates are able to achieve the stretch expectations that you 238 00:11:42,763 --> 00:11:45,882 Speaker 2: have set for them in performance. And then over a 239 00:11:45,883 --> 00:11:49,044 Speaker 2: period of time, see whether they are able to move 240 00:11:49,044 --> 00:11:52,823 Speaker 2: across the career hierarchy maybe faster or in an accelerated 241 00:11:52,823 --> 00:11:56,554 Speaker 2: manner than some of their peers. From an individual perspective, 242 00:11:56,614 --> 00:12:00,124 Speaker 2: I would say stretch expectations for them may cause 243 00:12:00,171 --> 00:12:02,921 Speaker 2: A little bit of stress, but sometimes the stress and 244 00:12:02,921 --> 00:12:06,481 Speaker 2: anxiety allows you to have adrenaline flowing and deliver better 245 00:12:06,481 --> 00:12:09,030 Speaker 2: than average outcomes and create exceptional outcomes. 246 00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:14,070 Speaker 1: Is it always a guarantee that after the traineeship, you 247 00:12:14,070 --> 00:12:17,870 Speaker 1: would get a full-time position, a permanent position in the company? 248 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: Because I've heard of cases where you can complete the 249 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: management associate program and then you're dropped. You're dropped off 250 00:12:23,921 --> 00:12:25,670 Speaker 1: and you're not even employed. Yeah. 251 00:12:26,239 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 2: So, if your performance levels in the management associate program 252 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:33,580 Speaker 2: are at expectations, more than likely, I'd say it's nearly 253 00:12:33,580 --> 00:12:36,200 Speaker 2: a given that you will find a role in the organization. 254 00:12:36,590 --> 00:12:39,609 Speaker 2: But having said that, there may be certain roles in 255 00:12:39,609 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 2: the organization that they may offer to the management associate 256 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:47,119 Speaker 2: program graduates, and they may not be the same preferences 257 00:12:47,450 --> 00:12:49,848 Speaker 2: from the individuals. For example, you may want a role 258 00:12:49,849 --> 00:12:53,010 Speaker 2: in sales, but there's only a role available in marketing. So, reality, 259 00:12:53,090 --> 00:12:56,010 Speaker 2: there may be differences in the preferences for individuals, for 260 00:12:56,010 --> 00:13:01,209 Speaker 2: certain global organizations that run this across regions globally as well. 261 00:13:01,219 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 2: There may be different roles in 262 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 2: markets that you may be offered, which may not align 263 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 2: with what the individuals may want. So it's always a 264 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:10,468 Speaker 2: supply and demand rationale that we need to consider. 265 00:13:10,739 --> 00:13:14,109 Speaker 1: And is a promotion always guaranteed and will your promotion 266 00:13:14,109 --> 00:13:16,799 Speaker 1: be fast tracked when you compare it with somebody who 267 00:13:16,799 --> 00:13:19,239 Speaker 1: is hired on a normal recruitment role? 268 00:13:19,479 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 2: So again, I go back to the point that having 269 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 2: gone through this program, you should have a better appreciation 270 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 2: of what the industry in which the organization operates. 271 00:13:28,729 --> 00:13:31,859 Speaker 2: The strength of the organization, the purpose of the organization, 272 00:13:31,900 --> 00:13:34,609 Speaker 2: the way it engages with its customers, the way it 273 00:13:34,609 --> 00:13:37,819 Speaker 2: makes money. So you have a very diverse view of 274 00:13:37,820 --> 00:13:41,780 Speaker 2: that organization. And thus, I think this is about having 275 00:13:41,780 --> 00:13:43,979 Speaker 2: access to that and therefore being able to grow your 276 00:13:43,979 --> 00:13:46,940 Speaker 2: career at a faster rate than maybe an individual that 277 00:13:46,940 --> 00:13:50,260 Speaker 2: went through it in a short 1 to 3 month onboarding, 278 00:13:50,380 --> 00:13:52,979 Speaker 2: where they may not have that level of access. They 279 00:13:52,979 --> 00:13:55,500 Speaker 2: may understand everything, but they don't have the access to 280 00:13:55,500 --> 00:13:58,330 Speaker 2: various divisions, various senior managers, and therefore, 281 00:13:59,039 --> 00:14:02,729 Speaker 2: Because of the access, you are expected to understand the 282 00:14:02,729 --> 00:14:05,969 Speaker 2: organization a lot better and therefore deliver performance at a 283 00:14:05,969 --> 00:14:08,569 Speaker 2: much higher level. And this is what then accelerates the 284 00:14:08,570 --> 00:14:09,229 Speaker 2: career growth. 285 00:14:10,130 --> 00:14:12,140 Speaker 1: What about salaries though? I think people will be very 286 00:14:12,140 --> 00:14:14,439 Speaker 1: interested in hearing this. Are they on a different track? 287 00:14:14,609 --> 00:14:16,690 Speaker 1: Do they start with a higher salary? 288 00:14:17,090 --> 00:14:20,250 Speaker 2: There are organizations that offer similar salary to the. 289 00:14:20,349 --> 00:14:23,090 Speaker 2: graduates they hire not on the program versus the ones 290 00:14:23,090 --> 00:14:26,169 Speaker 2: they hire on the program, but they could start with 291 00:14:26,169 --> 00:14:28,809 Speaker 2: a higher salary. Like I said, again, the expectation to 292 00:14:28,809 --> 00:14:31,409 Speaker 2: move career levels is higher. So over time, if that 293 00:14:31,409 --> 00:14:33,849 Speaker 2: does come through, there's a difference in the salary numbers 294 00:14:33,849 --> 00:14:35,929 Speaker 2: that do come through because people are performing at a 295 00:14:35,929 --> 00:14:38,489 Speaker 2: higher level or they are growing their careers at a 296 00:14:38,489 --> 00:14:39,159 Speaker 2: faster rate. 297 00:14:39,369 --> 00:14:41,929 Speaker 1: I think also that's say a program is 23 years long. 298 00:14:42,229 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: The opportunity cost of being on a management program, right. 299 00:14:44,969 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: A typical employee will have clocked 3 years of solid 300 00:14:48,409 --> 00:14:50,890 Speaker 1: experiences within the department, whereas the management associate goes through 301 00:14:50,890 --> 00:14:54,359 Speaker 1: 6 months each time, they don't really have the depth. Yeah, 302 00:14:54,369 --> 00:14:57,479 Speaker 1: so perhaps that's what the higher salary can actually compensate for. 303 00:14:57,729 --> 00:15:00,090 Speaker 1: But then I guess it doesn't sound fair, right? Because 304 00:15:00,090 --> 00:15:02,929 Speaker 1: you don't have the depth in terms of being in 305 00:15:02,929 --> 00:15:05,630 Speaker 1: individual departments for 6 months. It just looks like, yeah, 306 00:15:05,690 --> 00:15:08,890 Speaker 1: you get a sense of the whole business operation, but 307 00:15:08,890 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: you don't have depth, but at the same time, 308 00:15:11,655 --> 00:15:14,395 Speaker 1: salary is always accelerated and growing at a faster pace 309 00:15:14,395 --> 00:15:17,494 Speaker 1: than everybody else. Where is the buy-in from the rest 310 00:15:17,494 --> 00:15:20,474 Speaker 1: of the people within the company that this program is 311 00:15:20,474 --> 00:15:23,875 Speaker 1: a program that benefits not just the entire company, but 312 00:15:23,875 --> 00:15:26,955 Speaker 1: benefits the average worker in the long term if this 313 00:15:26,955 --> 00:15:30,015 Speaker 1: person is on an accelerated program. In my opinion, I 314 00:15:30,015 --> 00:15:32,505 Speaker 1: guess when you are paying someone a little bit more, 315 00:15:32,674 --> 00:15:35,075 Speaker 1: there are multiple reasons why for the employee itself on 316 00:15:35,075 --> 00:15:37,434 Speaker 1: the management program having to uproot every time and relearn 317 00:15:37,434 --> 00:15:39,594 Speaker 1: and learn, it's a little bit stressful. That's one, of course, 318 00:15:39,604 --> 00:15:40,955 Speaker 1: and expectations to perform. 319 00:15:41,239 --> 00:15:44,260 Speaker 1: People view you differently. They expect you to perform at 320 00:15:44,260 --> 00:15:48,219 Speaker 1: higher levels. You're expected to react faster, change faster, and 321 00:15:48,219 --> 00:15:52,059 Speaker 1: all this working towards hopefully the potential of being stretched 322 00:15:52,059 --> 00:15:55,500 Speaker 1: into a certain leadership position in the future. So I 323 00:15:55,500 --> 00:15:58,580 Speaker 1: think when you look at everything in total, then that's 324 00:15:58,580 --> 00:15:59,700 Speaker 1: why they have to pay more. 325 00:15:59,780 --> 00:16:00,260 Speaker 2: The beauty 326 00:16:00,260 --> 00:16:03,739 Speaker 2: of the program lies in the breadth of experience they 327 00:16:03,739 --> 00:16:07,859 Speaker 2: provide to the individuals, right? But the real success comes 328 00:16:07,859 --> 00:16:09,780 Speaker 2: once they graduate out of the program and are in 329 00:16:09,780 --> 00:16:10,580 Speaker 2: a full-time job. 330 00:16:11,020 --> 00:16:13,580 Speaker 2: Where they expected to show their depth in that function 331 00:16:13,580 --> 00:16:17,169 Speaker 2: in which they're working in. So, for example, no organization 332 00:16:17,539 --> 00:16:19,630 Speaker 2: achieves what they want to achieve by one particular function. 333 00:16:19,669 --> 00:16:23,260 Speaker 2: It's always a combination of multiple functions that the organization has. 334 00:16:23,340 --> 00:16:25,340 Speaker 2: So if you're on sales, you need to understand what 335 00:16:25,340 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 2: marketing does. You need to understand what corporate services, finance, HR, 336 00:16:29,580 --> 00:16:32,380 Speaker 2: IT kind of delivers. You need to understand what's the 337 00:16:32,380 --> 00:16:36,179 Speaker 2: brand positioning of the organization. So, it's that depth that 338 00:16:36,179 --> 00:16:36,969 Speaker 2: allows them to be more 339 00:16:37,015 --> 00:16:39,606 Speaker 2: Successful in the job that they operate in. It's that 340 00:16:39,606 --> 00:16:41,645 Speaker 2: bread that they get. So I think the reality of 341 00:16:41,645 --> 00:16:44,005 Speaker 2: the rubber hits the road once they actually are out 342 00:16:44,005 --> 00:16:46,835 Speaker 2: of the program and start contributing in a full-time job. 343 00:16:47,286 --> 00:16:51,176 Speaker 1: I think this conversation about the management program makes me 344 00:16:51,176 --> 00:16:54,245 Speaker 1: start to think that actually our expectations of a person 345 00:16:54,245 --> 00:16:57,195 Speaker 1: on this program becoming a leader is not that direct, 346 00:16:57,205 --> 00:16:57,226 Speaker 1: you know. 347 00:16:58,182 --> 00:17:01,111 Speaker 1: there's actually a long distance. Once you finish the program, 348 00:17:01,151 --> 00:17:03,752 Speaker 1: there's still a lot you have to do before you 349 00:17:03,752 --> 00:17:05,911 Speaker 1: can make your way up there. So I think the 350 00:17:05,911 --> 00:17:08,150 Speaker 1: perception that we connect these two things together could be 351 00:17:08,151 --> 00:17:11,071 Speaker 1: a little bit too close and too tight, right? Or 352 00:17:11,071 --> 00:17:14,472 Speaker 1: maybe we should really look at it as employers, number one, 353 00:17:14,552 --> 00:17:16,612 Speaker 1: trying to look out for the best talent first and 354 00:17:16,612 --> 00:17:19,192 Speaker 1: then trying to harness that potential, stretch them. 355 00:17:19,569 --> 00:17:21,979 Speaker 1: And those who are able to be stretched them maybe 356 00:17:21,979 --> 00:17:24,589 Speaker 1: see what happens. We know that for the majority of 357 00:17:24,589 --> 00:17:27,589 Speaker 1: the employees, when they see a management associate, those perceptions 358 00:17:27,589 --> 00:17:30,339 Speaker 1: hang very quickly. That's why I thought this is something 359 00:17:30,339 --> 00:17:32,739 Speaker 1: that maybe we should really think a little bit deeper, 360 00:17:33,109 --> 00:17:35,709 Speaker 1: a little bit more. Does every management associate really become 361 00:17:35,709 --> 00:17:38,270 Speaker 1: a leader at the end? And what sort of leadership 362 00:17:38,270 --> 00:17:40,670 Speaker 1: capabilities do they bring to the table as well? Let's 363 00:17:40,670 --> 00:17:42,719 Speaker 1: say for example, if I'm 25 and I don't have 364 00:17:42,719 --> 00:17:45,550 Speaker 1: a healthy mindset of what leadership looks like. 365 00:17:45,890 --> 00:17:48,909 Speaker 1: Then I would think to myself, I will get to 366 00:17:48,910 --> 00:17:51,650 Speaker 1: department head by the time I'm 30 and then I 367 00:17:51,650 --> 00:17:54,188 Speaker 1: will tell you guys what you guys have to do 368 00:17:54,189 --> 00:17:55,938 Speaker 1: and how you guys have to think because none of 369 00:17:55,939 --> 00:17:57,770 Speaker 1: you are as smart as me. And then there are 370 00:17:57,770 --> 00:18:00,448 Speaker 1: those where they have a very healthy mindset of leadership 371 00:18:00,449 --> 00:18:03,010 Speaker 1: where they see it as a servant leadership and they 372 00:18:03,010 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: are there to serve the company, help people to achieve 373 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:08,770 Speaker 1: the best in their career health. So I think that's 374 00:18:08,770 --> 00:18:09,170 Speaker 1: where 375 00:18:09,530 --> 00:18:13,409 Speaker 1: It's not easy trying to not just see out the 376 00:18:13,410 --> 00:18:16,319 Speaker 1: people with the right mindset, but to also as you said, 377 00:18:16,609 --> 00:18:19,319 Speaker 1: give them the right feedback along the way to say, hey, 378 00:18:19,449 --> 00:18:21,530 Speaker 1: you know what, we need to stretch you in this 379 00:18:21,530 --> 00:18:24,449 Speaker 1: area or we need to challenge certain mindsets that you 380 00:18:24,449 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 1: have of what leadership looks like. 381 00:18:26,369 --> 00:18:31,410 Speaker 2: Organizations provide these management graduates with the right to access 382 00:18:31,410 --> 00:18:34,339 Speaker 2: to even senior leaders so that they understand how leaders 383 00:18:34,339 --> 00:18:35,849 Speaker 2: operate in that organization. 384 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 2: They can pick up certain skills by which they can 385 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 2: manage difficult circumstances, manage people, deal with peers, deal with 386 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,800 Speaker 2: people who are junior to them as well as deal upwards. 387 00:18:45,839 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 2: You know, the learning model has been fairly well researched 388 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 2: and pulled through. Actually, 70% of the learning that people 389 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 2: get are on the job. 390 00:18:54,819 --> 00:18:57,979 Speaker 2: So, these graduates are doing a job and therefore they 391 00:18:58,310 --> 00:19:00,790 Speaker 2: get that learning. 20% of that learning they get is 392 00:19:00,790 --> 00:19:04,389 Speaker 2: through mentoring, to counseling, to coaching, and it's only 10% 393 00:19:04,390 --> 00:19:07,339 Speaker 2: that comes in through formal programs that they want to run. So, 394 00:19:07,510 --> 00:19:09,149 Speaker 2: the management program provides all of this. 395 00:19:09,530 --> 00:19:13,979 Speaker 2: The 20% becomes enlarged because you have more mentors, more counselors, 396 00:19:14,140 --> 00:19:17,208 Speaker 2: more coaches. The 70% on the job is again very 397 00:19:17,209 --> 00:19:19,930 Speaker 2: stretched because it could be multidisciplinary in nature. 398 00:19:20,660 --> 00:19:22,380 Speaker 1: I mean, it sounds definitely that you are a big 399 00:19:22,380 --> 00:19:26,180 Speaker 1: fan of this program. What do you think is still 400 00:19:26,180 --> 00:19:29,619 Speaker 1: lacking when it comes to this management associate program and 401 00:19:29,619 --> 00:19:32,900 Speaker 1: that you feel in the next 5 years, companies can 402 00:19:32,900 --> 00:19:33,670 Speaker 1: focus on 403 00:19:34,010 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 2: I think what will be interesting to watch out for 404 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:40,239 Speaker 2: is today, you know, technology, GN AI AI is transforming 405 00:19:40,239 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 2: everything that we work and operate in, right? So the 406 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 2: reality is how organizations start helping these graduates to 407 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,579 Speaker 2: Become the epicenter of the technology in the organization, because 408 00:19:51,579 --> 00:19:54,510 Speaker 2: that will then help the organization propel a lot faster, 409 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 2: as well as help individuals to grow their careers a 410 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,550 Speaker 2: lot faster. These programs will need to now inculcate both 411 00:20:00,719 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 2: AI Gen AI technology in one of the key areas 412 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,079 Speaker 2: or aspects of the program that they run in the organization. 413 00:20:07,369 --> 00:20:10,209 Speaker 2: And organizations are going to be the schools of tomorrow. 414 00:20:10,260 --> 00:20:12,979 Speaker 1: I'm just very curious as a last question. Can I, 415 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,419 Speaker 1: let's say, work for 2 years or 3 years first 416 00:20:16,420 --> 00:20:18,859 Speaker 1: at an entry level and then decide I will want 417 00:20:18,859 --> 00:20:21,500 Speaker 1: to join a graduate program, then leave the job that 418 00:20:21,500 --> 00:20:24,020 Speaker 1: I have, maybe join another company, but as part of 419 00:20:24,020 --> 00:20:27,218 Speaker 1: their graduate program. Is it possible or are graduate programs 420 00:20:27,219 --> 00:20:28,859 Speaker 1: only solely for fresh 421 00:20:28,859 --> 00:20:29,859 Speaker 1: graduates? 422 00:20:30,099 --> 00:20:30,859 Speaker 2: Uh, depends. 423 00:20:30,936 --> 00:20:35,126 Speaker 2: On the organization, but there may be opportunities for individuals 424 00:20:35,126 --> 00:20:38,436 Speaker 2: to join another organization and join into the management graduate program. 425 00:20:38,607 --> 00:20:40,927 Speaker 2: The answer is it depends, but it definitely does show 426 00:20:40,927 --> 00:20:45,035 Speaker 2: from an individual the lifelong learning mindset if they're willing 427 00:20:45,036 --> 00:20:47,487 Speaker 2: to even after working 2 or 3 years to go 428 00:20:47,487 --> 00:20:49,077 Speaker 2: back into a management graduate program. 429 00:20:49,207 --> 00:20:51,286 Speaker 1: Because the pay might be a little bit lower, is 430 00:20:51,286 --> 00:20:51,847 Speaker 1: that right? 431 00:20:52,146 --> 00:20:52,446 Speaker 2: Potentially, 432 00:20:53,126 --> 00:20:54,446 Speaker 1: I mean, depends on the company. 433 00:20:54,634 --> 00:20:57,154 Speaker 1: moving into. So this is one of the examples that 434 00:20:57,154 --> 00:20:59,614 Speaker 1: I had one person who who was exactly like that. 435 00:20:59,792 --> 00:21:02,273 Speaker 1: He was considering to go on a management associate program 436 00:21:02,273 --> 00:21:04,713 Speaker 1: after working 2 years and then he realized the salary 437 00:21:04,713 --> 00:21:07,312 Speaker 1: was different. So even though management associates pay more at 438 00:21:07,313 --> 00:21:10,072 Speaker 1: that level, but he realized that after 2 years of working, 439 00:21:10,234 --> 00:21:13,394 Speaker 1: his pay was actually higher. Yeah, I guess also not 440 00:21:13,394 --> 00:21:16,193 Speaker 1: all management associate programs pay like super good. Maybe some 441 00:21:16,193 --> 00:21:17,913 Speaker 1: of them they do pack it at more. 442 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: More rates. 443 00:21:19,061 --> 00:21:21,061 Speaker 2: I just like to say this to all graduates, don't 444 00:21:21,061 --> 00:21:24,100 Speaker 2: chase dollars early in your life, chase learning, and dollars 445 00:21:24,100 --> 00:21:25,461 Speaker 2: will chase you later in your life. 446 00:21:26,421 --> 00:21:30,020 Speaker 1: Good advice, good advice. Wouldn't be good if HR or 447 00:21:30,020 --> 00:21:32,181 Speaker 1: if the organization starts to become a little bit more 448 00:21:32,181 --> 00:21:37,151 Speaker 1: transparent about communicating such programs. I think helping people to 449 00:21:37,151 --> 00:21:40,181 Speaker 1: see that these employees on the program, they are not 450 00:21:40,181 --> 00:21:41,551 Speaker 1: coming into Lord over you. 451 00:21:42,290 --> 00:21:44,069 Speaker 1: You know, they have to work really hard. They are 452 00:21:44,069 --> 00:21:47,270 Speaker 1: also learning about themselves and they're also growing. Maybe they 453 00:21:47,270 --> 00:21:50,109 Speaker 1: just were able to express some positive qualities in a 454 00:21:50,109 --> 00:21:52,629 Speaker 1: better way earlier in life, but they still have to 455 00:21:52,630 --> 00:21:54,109 Speaker 1: work very hard for it. So I thought that for 456 00:21:54,109 --> 00:21:56,948 Speaker 1: an organization that has management associate program, the ethos of 457 00:21:56,949 --> 00:21:58,569 Speaker 1: the company of you work hard. 458 00:21:59,069 --> 00:22:01,319 Speaker 1: And then you can get promoted, you can become a leader. 459 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,319 Speaker 1: It must be the main thing. They have to learn 460 00:22:03,319 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 1: to decouple and explain this clearly. Yeah, well said. Yeah, 461 00:22:07,060 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: thank you so much, Samir, for coming and sharing your 462 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,719 Speaker 1: views on this. I mean, I'm not entirely convinced that 463 00:22:12,719 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 1: the program is perfect, but like any program at any organization. 464 00:22:17,380 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: I think there's always sort of work in progress and 465 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: it only can get better. I'm glad that we covered 466 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,989 Speaker 1: points to help people who are at that stage of 467 00:22:25,989 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 1: life where they can consider if they want to be 468 00:22:28,439 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: part of the graduate program, what kind of accelerated pathways 469 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,079 Speaker 1: they can take, but also at the same time be 470 00:22:34,079 --> 00:22:37,069 Speaker 1: very cognizant of the fact that it's not an easy 471 00:22:37,069 --> 00:22:39,530 Speaker 1: path for them to. The expectations will be very high. 472 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,119 Speaker 1: So thank you so much for laying all the cards 473 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,319 Speaker 1: on the table for us, Samir. Thank you. Thank you 474 00:22:44,319 --> 00:22:45,160 Speaker 1: so much. Thank you. 475 00:22:49,189 --> 00:22:52,510 Speaker 1: Hello, thanks for joining us again. It's our Ask Me 476 00:22:52,510 --> 00:22:56,300 Speaker 1: Anything segment. We love your questions. So do send it 477 00:22:56,300 --> 00:23:00,180 Speaker 1: to us. We're at CNA podcasts at Mediacorp.com.sg. 478 00:23:00,750 --> 00:23:04,459 Speaker 1: Now today's question was sent in by our listener Jane. 479 00:23:04,790 --> 00:23:09,219 Speaker 1: Jane's question is short, sweet, but she didn't give us 480 00:23:09,219 --> 00:23:12,949 Speaker 1: a lot of information as to what she's struggling with. 481 00:23:13,310 --> 00:23:17,109 Speaker 1: But let's unpack it a little bit more. Jane says 482 00:23:17,109 --> 00:23:20,669 Speaker 1: with the current situation, do we stay put in our 483 00:23:20,670 --> 00:23:24,979 Speaker 1: job despite all the possible pain points one could imagine 484 00:23:24,979 --> 00:23:30,550 Speaker 1: or just look for another and quit this current painful one. 485 00:23:31,579 --> 00:23:35,179 Speaker 1: Wow, Jane sounds very, very unhappy. Yes, yes, I can 486 00:23:35,180 --> 00:23:37,619 Speaker 1: feel it in the question a lot of pain. Yeah, 487 00:23:37,739 --> 00:23:40,060 Speaker 1: there's two states that she's in, in one place she's 488 00:23:40,060 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 1: feeling like she needs to move on because it's so painful. 489 00:23:42,859 --> 00:23:44,530 Speaker 1: Then the other place that she's at is. 490 00:23:45,170 --> 00:23:47,369 Speaker 1: She's too scared to move on because she feels scared 491 00:23:47,369 --> 00:23:50,170 Speaker 1: that there's no opportunities for her or maybe she's worried 492 00:23:50,170 --> 00:23:51,849 Speaker 1: that if she goes into the next job, it may 493 00:23:51,849 --> 00:23:54,959 Speaker 1: not give her the same stability and that's why she's stuck. 494 00:23:55,170 --> 00:23:57,510 Speaker 1: She can't make a change and she also doesn't like 495 00:23:57,510 --> 00:23:59,409 Speaker 1: where she's at now. Yeah, so I think we have 496 00:23:59,410 --> 00:24:02,010 Speaker 1: to make a few assumptions here like you say, she's 497 00:24:02,010 --> 00:24:05,770 Speaker 1: not happy and she wants out. 2, sounds like what 498 00:24:05,770 --> 00:24:06,449 Speaker 1: she is so fearful. 499 00:24:06,656 --> 00:24:09,005 Speaker 1: about is that the job market isn't great for her, 500 00:24:09,576 --> 00:24:12,456 Speaker 1: and she's worried she can't find something. You know, we 501 00:24:12,455 --> 00:24:15,086 Speaker 1: talked about this before we started recording. This is a very, very, 502 00:24:15,176 --> 00:24:18,416 Speaker 1: very deep and big question, but what would be your 503 00:24:18,416 --> 00:24:19,815 Speaker 1: advice if we were to look at it from a 504 00:24:19,816 --> 00:24:23,014 Speaker 1: very general point of view? I think generally speaking, we 505 00:24:23,015 --> 00:24:26,385 Speaker 1: have to test some assumptions. So for example, some assumptions 506 00:24:26,385 --> 00:24:27,854 Speaker 1: we have to test is of the job. 507 00:24:27,991 --> 00:24:31,462 Speaker 1: Market, right? Are there opportunities that would be good for 508 00:24:31,462 --> 00:24:33,371 Speaker 1: you or is it really as terrible as you think? 509 00:24:33,501 --> 00:24:35,781 Speaker 1: I guess if she wants to stay in her current 510 00:24:35,781 --> 00:24:39,291 Speaker 1: job environment, some sectors might not be doing well, right? 511 00:24:39,421 --> 00:24:42,381 Speaker 1: But if she can look at some transferable skills that 512 00:24:42,381 --> 00:24:45,702 Speaker 1: she has, she may actually open herself up to different 513 00:24:45,702 --> 00:24:50,061 Speaker 1: sectors where she can find work. So I think testing 514 00:24:50,061 --> 00:24:52,241 Speaker 1: some assumptions about the job market, is it really as 515 00:24:52,241 --> 00:24:54,901 Speaker 1: bad as she thinks? It's very, very important, right? 516 00:24:55,310 --> 00:24:57,339 Speaker 1: Then the other part of it is, of course, looking 517 00:24:57,339 --> 00:25:00,109 Speaker 1: at her pain points in the company. How deep are 518 00:25:00,109 --> 00:25:02,949 Speaker 1: these pain points? What's causing these pain points? Are these 519 00:25:02,949 --> 00:25:07,229 Speaker 1: pain points addressable? Can Jane do something about making challenges 520 00:25:07,229 --> 00:25:09,989 Speaker 1: at work disappear or make it just a little bit 521 00:25:09,989 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 1: better for herself. But most of us, it's too much 522 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:14,069 Speaker 1: work to think like this, right? We are used to 523 00:25:14,069 --> 00:25:15,679 Speaker 1: the daily hamster wheel of just 524 00:25:15,729 --> 00:25:17,880 Speaker 1: Surviving. So Jane is in a kind of a survival mode. 525 00:25:18,479 --> 00:25:20,810 Speaker 1: She's just kicking the can down a little bit every day, 526 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,079 Speaker 1: but it's painful. I think also has Jane tried to 527 00:25:24,079 --> 00:25:27,239 Speaker 1: sort of address some of these pain points? Perhaps she 528 00:25:27,239 --> 00:25:31,079 Speaker 1: could have and she is still not getting any progress 529 00:25:31,079 --> 00:25:34,198 Speaker 1: out of that, but also if she hasn't, then it 530 00:25:34,199 --> 00:25:36,160 Speaker 1: will be a good time to talk to somebody. 531 00:25:36,329 --> 00:25:38,290 Speaker 1: About it because it's very difficult. I mean, I've been 532 00:25:38,290 --> 00:25:41,339 Speaker 1: in a situation before where you are stuck in that, 533 00:25:41,369 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: you know, silo, where you just feel that everything is 534 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,250 Speaker 1: against you and there's no other possible solutions because you 535 00:25:48,250 --> 00:25:51,169 Speaker 1: haven't really spoken to other people who might give you 536 00:25:51,170 --> 00:25:53,810 Speaker 1: certain solutions that may work. Yeah, I think when we 537 00:25:53,810 --> 00:25:55,770 Speaker 1: look at the pinpoints, there are some that we can 538 00:25:55,770 --> 00:25:56,688 Speaker 1: address and some we cannot. 539 00:25:56,959 --> 00:25:59,649 Speaker 1: So for example, if we are working in a job 540 00:25:59,650 --> 00:26:02,150 Speaker 1: and a lot of these pinpoints come from, let's say 541 00:26:02,150 --> 00:26:05,599 Speaker 1: a toxic work environment, you got really, really nasty boss 542 00:26:05,849 --> 00:26:08,290 Speaker 1: and you realize that you can't change people, right? You 543 00:26:08,290 --> 00:26:11,889 Speaker 1: can't change the culture by yourself, then those become pinpoints 544 00:26:11,890 --> 00:26:14,129 Speaker 1: that is not addressable and if those are the pain 545 00:26:14,130 --> 00:26:17,290 Speaker 1: not addressable, then maybe Jane should really go and check 546 00:26:17,290 --> 00:26:19,089 Speaker 1: out the job market, right? But if today the pain 547 00:26:19,089 --> 00:26:20,410 Speaker 1: points are self-inflicted. 548 00:26:20,930 --> 00:26:23,989 Speaker 1: Within our control, for example, being burned out from work, 549 00:26:24,369 --> 00:26:27,250 Speaker 1: not setting clear boundaries, setting clear boundaries at work or 550 00:26:27,250 --> 00:26:29,969 Speaker 1: maybe you feel really very disengaged with your work, your work, 551 00:26:30,010 --> 00:26:31,849 Speaker 1: you've been doing it for let's say 10 number of 552 00:26:31,849 --> 00:26:34,609 Speaker 1: years and you're bored and then doing the same work 553 00:26:34,609 --> 00:26:37,129 Speaker 1: again feels like you're not being rewarded. Or maybe it 554 00:26:37,130 --> 00:26:39,449 Speaker 1: could be you feel like you are not being treated 555 00:26:39,449 --> 00:26:41,770 Speaker 1: fairly because you've been passed over for promotions for a 556 00:26:41,770 --> 00:26:42,500 Speaker 1: number of years. 557 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,619 Speaker 1: And then this become painful, right? So if those are 558 00:26:45,619 --> 00:26:49,109 Speaker 1: the top pin points within Jane, then perhaps it's important 559 00:26:49,109 --> 00:26:51,659 Speaker 1: to address those things because some of these can carry 560 00:26:51,660 --> 00:26:54,219 Speaker 1: forward into any other job that she moves into in 561 00:26:54,219 --> 00:26:56,500 Speaker 1: the future. One thing that we are very aware of 562 00:26:56,500 --> 00:26:58,728 Speaker 1: is that we are not here to tell Jane to 563 00:26:58,729 --> 00:27:02,300 Speaker 1: quit your job just because it's painful and we're not 564 00:27:02,300 --> 00:27:04,698 Speaker 1: here to give you advice to say don't worry, there 565 00:27:04,699 --> 00:27:05,579 Speaker 1: will be a job out there. 566 00:27:05,656 --> 00:27:08,366 Speaker 1: For you and everything because we recognize that not everyone 567 00:27:08,366 --> 00:27:12,446 Speaker 1: is in a privileged position to be able to just 568 00:27:12,446 --> 00:27:15,886 Speaker 1: quit a job and look for something else and have 569 00:27:15,886 --> 00:27:19,726 Speaker 1: enough finances to tie yourself through. So I think the 570 00:27:19,727 --> 00:27:22,726 Speaker 1: first thing would be to, before you actually get to 571 00:27:22,727 --> 00:27:25,246 Speaker 1: that stage, look at your finances to see whether there 572 00:27:25,246 --> 00:27:28,126 Speaker 1: are sort of emergency savings that can tide you through 573 00:27:28,126 --> 00:27:28,406 Speaker 1: a few. 574 00:27:28,792 --> 00:27:31,274 Speaker 1: while you are job hunting and if not, then start 575 00:27:31,273 --> 00:27:33,754 Speaker 1: on it now so that you have at least a 576 00:27:33,754 --> 00:27:36,904 Speaker 1: goal that you're working towards and it takes your mind 577 00:27:36,904 --> 00:27:41,043 Speaker 1: away from any of the possible pain that you're currently 578 00:27:41,042 --> 00:27:43,394 Speaker 1: holding in your job. And I think I would suggest 579 00:27:43,394 --> 00:27:46,644 Speaker 1: is to also identify silver linings. Yes, the job may 580 00:27:46,644 --> 00:27:48,953 Speaker 1: be painful, but I think on a daily basis if 581 00:27:48,953 --> 00:27:51,073 Speaker 1: you were to break it down, there could be things 582 00:27:51,073 --> 00:27:51,343 Speaker 1: that you 583 00:27:51,390 --> 00:27:53,581 Speaker 1: Thankful for. It could be like at least you have 584 00:27:53,580 --> 00:27:57,100 Speaker 1: one nice colleague or your office pantry is well stocked. 585 00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,701 Speaker 1: So I would say look for these silver linings that 586 00:27:59,701 --> 00:28:02,561 Speaker 1: can get you through the day while you plan for 587 00:28:02,561 --> 00:28:05,730 Speaker 1: your exit strategy. Yeah, so I think for Jane really 588 00:28:05,980 --> 00:28:09,380 Speaker 1: deeper consideration, you need to really lay out all the cards, 589 00:28:09,850 --> 00:28:12,541 Speaker 1: look deep into the pin points, why is it like that, 590 00:28:12,651 --> 00:28:14,139 Speaker 1: look deep into the assumptions. 591 00:28:14,530 --> 00:28:16,929 Speaker 1: And then start to maybe decide what you want to do. 592 00:28:17,099 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: Do you want to tackle the pinpoints? Are they within 593 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:21,420 Speaker 1: your control? Do you want to challenge some assumptions that 594 00:28:21,420 --> 00:28:22,900 Speaker 1: means that you have to do some homework, you do 595 00:28:22,900 --> 00:28:23,688 Speaker 1: some research. 596 00:28:24,369 --> 00:28:27,099 Speaker 1: Or could be you just end up not doing anything 597 00:28:27,099 --> 00:28:29,790 Speaker 1: and just feeling stuck, right? So, Jane, my advice to 598 00:28:29,790 --> 00:28:33,510 Speaker 1: you is be brave, to investigate deeper, don't just kick 599 00:28:33,510 --> 00:28:36,109 Speaker 1: down the can and don't wait anymore. If this is 600 00:28:36,109 --> 00:28:38,109 Speaker 1: really the feeling of being stuck, I don't know for 601 00:28:38,109 --> 00:28:39,880 Speaker 1: how long already, it could be years. 602 00:28:40,130 --> 00:28:41,630 Speaker 1: So maybe this is the right time to do something 603 00:28:41,630 --> 00:28:44,349 Speaker 1: about it. Well Jane, I hope our conversation here has 604 00:28:44,349 --> 00:28:47,349 Speaker 1: been helpful to you. I think you know deep down 605 00:28:47,349 --> 00:28:50,670 Speaker 1: in your gut, what is the best option for you 606 00:28:50,670 --> 00:28:53,750 Speaker 1: and be brave, take your time to get there. If 607 00:28:53,750 --> 00:28:56,890 Speaker 1: like Jane, you have a work-related question, do write into us. 608 00:28:57,030 --> 00:29:01,869 Speaker 1: We are at CNA podcasts at Mediacorp.com.sg. We're also on Spotify, 609 00:29:02,229 --> 00:29:05,859 Speaker 1: Me Listen, Apple Podcasts and YouTube where a video version 610 00:29:05,859 --> 00:29:07,030 Speaker 1: of this is at. 611 00:29:07,390 --> 00:29:10,209 Speaker 1: The team behind the Work It podcast is Hou Pei Ning, 612 00:29:10,459 --> 00:29:15,729 Speaker 1: Juanini Johari, Joan Chan, Saya Win, Allison Jenner, and Shahza Talela. 613 00:29:16,089 --> 00:29:19,140 Speaker 1: Video by Hanida Amin. I'm Gerald and I'm Tiffany. Have 614 00:29:19,140 --> 00:29:22,750 Speaker 1: a great work week ahead and remember, life's too short 615 00:29:22,750 --> 00:29:24,260 Speaker 1: to just focus on work.