S1: The following is a C and a podcast. I'm Jamie
S1: Hoh and welcome back to the climate conversations we've all
S1: heard about Greta Thunberg and what she's done to put
S1: climate change on the front and center. She was just
S1: 15 when she staged a protest for climate action outside
S1: the Swedish parliament in Stockholm in 2018. Now there are
S1: hundreds of youth led movements globally. Singapore had won two
S1: in 2019 as G Climate Rally organized the country's first
S1: such rally, which was attended by two thousand passionate people
S1: who wanted greater climate action. COVID 19 may have put
S1: a damper on physical rallies for now, but activists have
S1: a powerful medium. Social media, of course. In 2020, ESG
S1: Climate Rally launched a virtual campaign called Take Back 2050,
S1: which invited people to share their vision of a sustainable Singapore.
S1: Other activists use social media to break down complex climate issues,
S1: promote local grassroots events and even engage climate scientists in livestreams.
S1: But how effective are social media platforms in raising awareness
S1: and inspiring greater action? How do young activists track the
S1: impact that they're really convert naysayers, or are they preaching
S1: to the choir? With me today is environmental activist whichI,
S1: and she runs the Instagram page, The Weird and Wild,
S1: where she educates people on all things environmental through illustrations,
S1: infographics and more.
S2: Jian, welcome. Hi, thanks for having me.
S1: Now I'm going to get to the first question. Yeah,
S1: we've actually seen that you said before. They've always been
S1: interested in nature growing up and specifically, you are huge.
S1: Steve Irwin fan. How did you go from being interested
S1: in the environment and nature to actively actually advocating for
S1: it to be right to all your followers?
S2: For example, it was an entire journey, considering that I
S2: don't think I ever imagined myself to be where I
S2: am today as a kid. Growing up, my parents used
S2: to force me to read the newspaper just to improve
S2: my English. The only thing that I gravitated towards was
S2: small snippets in my relevant newspapers that were making me,
S2: and I only wanted to read about animals. And that
S2: led me to read a lot about deforestation. I watched
S2: a lot of Animal Planet. Steve Irwin was always on.
S2: Seeing other people advocate for the environment eventually got me
S2: to think about it when I could see it and
S2: what I could do. So growing up, I was always volunteering,
S2: but I think it was only when I was in
S2: uni that I decided, you know, why not do something
S2: on social media because I was a very visual person?
S2: And I decided to have my hand in illustrating environmental
S2: news because I was like, You know, I think you
S2: might have seen enough of ice caps melting very typical pictures.
S2: And why don't I just try something else?
S1: I wanted to talk about immediate situation right now in
S1: Singapore and around the world as well, whether it was
S1: Greta Thunberg starting her school strikes a couple of years ago.
S1: Young people have always been organizing events on climate change
S1: and climate action. We also had our first climate rally
S1: in 2019. Looking at COVID 19, though, do you think
S1: that has therefore dampened the momentum in terms of activism
S1: and engagement, especially we have Glasgow coming up. Do you
S1: think things have changed? Firstly, locally? And as you look internationally,
S1: what's your sense
S2: starting out in COVID? I was concerned about the kind
S2: of attention that climate issues were going to get because
S2: at the end of 2019, things started to get a
S2: little bit more interesting, with more and more youth coming
S2: out to talk about environmental issues. And I mean, Kobe
S2: came in paradise, surprisingly got even more clear and everybody
S2: started to step up, I guess a lot more in
S2: terms of climate issues. And you know, there were so
S2: many new sites covering climate issues, companies looking to declare
S2: a net zero and the kind of coverage I would've
S2: never imagined it ever in my life in the past.
S2: Strange times used to only run like a half page
S2: on less on climate change, and now it's everywhere. I
S2: would say that it's been nice to see environmental issues
S2: gain momentum, surprisingly, because I don't think people really expected it.
S2: And also the fact that I did environmental studies in
S2: English and UC and we were always saying, you know,
S2: they're going to have no jobs, nobody wants to hire us.
S2: And now finally, sustainability is everywhere. So I was like,
S2: This is an interesting time for an environmental studies graduate
S2: to be job hunting, to be looking out and to
S2: be paying attention to LA.
S1: Funnily enough, I've spoken to quite a few environmental studies
S1: graduates now on this podcast. So good for you. Yeah.
S1: So it's actually interesting to hear that you say basically
S1: the last 18 to 20 months of COVID 19 has,
S1: you know, we accelerate the at least action or at
S1: least public awareness as far as climate change is concerned.
S1: Is that your assessment?
S2: Yeah, because I think it's not just about COVID. Unfortunately,
S2: I think it's a perfect storm of a lot of
S2: things I remember in early 2018. Just as COVID was
S2: hitting all of us, it was also where the Australian
S2: fires got very, very big and then there were fires
S2: in Thailand. Yeah, the situation didn't really get better, so
S2: it's almost inevitable that we're talking about climate change.
S1: But we talked about a bit about your work specifically
S1: now before I get to larger issues. Just looking at
S1: your Instagram page, I mean, you've got a whole mix
S1: of drawings and illustrations, nature photographs. The scope of what
S1: you talk about seems to be quite large. You have
S1: sustainable energy, fast fashion. There's even something on impact of
S1: climate change, on beer production. How do you prioritize? There
S1: must be a range of issues out there, and there's
S1: so much to be said. Firstly, yeah, how do you
S1: prioritize and which ones are closest to your heart? Then personally,
S2: personally identify as a generalist, which is that I'm interested
S2: in everything and trying to find out as much as
S2: I can. It was hard for me to pinpoint my
S2: energy account a meter, a column. I couldn't decide on
S2: anyone and I said, You know, I know I just
S2: talk about everything in terms of priority. I used to
S2: be very reactionary where, you know, maybe this is the
S2: biggest news of the day. There will be an issue
S2: I cover, but I started to realise that it was
S2: extremely not sustainable in terms of my own energy. It's
S2: impossible to follow so many things. I used to have
S2: a board called Moderate Risk keeping on my phone where
S2: I knocked down things that I found very interesting. Let's
S2: see if I'm talking about plastic. Is that interesting thought
S2: process that I came across our conversation I had that
S2: I wanted to talk about. So I'm trying to focus
S2: more on reflections and prioritizing what matters to me and
S2: what I think people should hear, and that's how my
S2: content goes out. At the same time, it's also what
S2: I think people are interested in because I do get
S2: a lot of messages. See, can you explain this? Can
S2: you tell me about this? Can you explain that? There's
S2: never enough content.
S1: Typekit a little bit about your style that obviously are
S1: very visual. I'm sure a lot of what goes on
S1: behind it. Do you think the visual style the visual
S1: element helps explain things far better, maybe to a younger audience,
S1: a different audience coming from the way I am? Is
S1: it easier for you sometimes to write an essay or
S1: an op ed or, you know, if not so serious
S1: something on Facebook or medium itself capturing everything visually? Or
S1: maybe you think that visual element is the best thing
S1: and the easiest thing to do for different audiences?
S2: Visuals are easier to find with something because I feel like,
S2: let's say, the climate strike. So I know it's the
S2: one way they document the temperatures of let's see the
S2: world or a particular country over time. I don't really
S2: know how someone can put them to work through the
S2: entire visualization of how temperature has changed over time. There
S2: are just some things that are easy to explain via
S2: pictures or via visuals that over text. I sort of
S2: realized that when I was doing explainers like life-cycle analysis
S2: on plastics, I can give you like a three paragraphs
S2: on how the blasting is Chris ship consumed in Singapore
S2: and disposed off. Or I can just draw you one
S2: by one square Instagram, you know, showing you exactly the
S2: entire process. And I think you will get that better
S2: than sitting down for 15 minutes. One with all these
S2: jargon use visuals tend to be a lot more attractive.
S2: And it's funny because I'm working on a separate project
S2: called Climate Conference, where I'm hoping to visualise a lot
S2: more things because I think sometimes concepts get too cerebral,
S2: too theoretical when we're talking or writing about it. But
S2: once I explain it to you, using visuals, you very
S2: quickly can understand what exactly is, let's say, carbon cycle
S2: or what exactly the circular economy really means. I see
S2: a lot of value in visuals. Humans are naturally very
S2: visual creatures, and I think it's easier to digest an
S2: image that captures, I guess, a thousand words in this
S2: case than reading a thousand words itself.
S1: That's a very interesting way to put it, and I
S1: definitely can agree with you on a lot of that.
S1: But maybe I'll tap your thinking on this, too. I
S1: wonder whether your intent is to be an activist to
S1: generate action. That's one intent. Then the other intent is
S1: just for information to build awareness understanding. Do you think
S1: sometimes the visual was the written either one, as you say,
S1: has its pros and cons because I imagine sometimes the
S1: visual element doesn't lend itself as well to nuance and
S1: compromise and tradeoffs. And one thing balancing off the other,
S1: which you may want for understanding and information did not
S1: necessarily need for driving activism.
S2: Yeah, you hit that on under here, which is that
S2: sometimes it's very hard for me. Let's say I was
S2: doing a piece explaining, you know, when the oil prices
S2: dropped below zero dollars and why that occurred and how
S2: it all. And there were just so many things about
S2: the economy of all there, the politics of all that,
S2: but I couldn't possibly capture in 10 Instagram slides. And
S2: I think sometimes I sit with it and I'm like,
S2: Oh my gosh, am I simplifying things too much? Yeah, well,
S2: people lose their context. Then you just share things without
S2: realizing what's going on. And inevitably, you know, am I
S2: spreading some kind of misinformation by not presenting the full picture?
S2: So because of that, there are very strong indications because
S2: it's easy for visual things to go viral. And once
S2: that happens, you can really control the narrative any more.
S2: So this is a big con in trying to visualize
S2: things because you lose one sometimes, even though maybe people
S2: might think differently. One of the things that you're doing
S2: right now is subject to interpretation from anyone they meet.
S1: That's the eternal conundrum with social media, isn't it? Because
S1: on the one hand, yes, that's the most effective medium
S1: that we have now. You have the opportunity to go
S1: viral huge audiences, but it's not necessarily the best thing
S1: for deep understanding and nuance. I suppose for people like
S1: you who do have, I imagine, both an activist slant
S1: as well as Anita. You want to help people understand
S1: it can be a challenge using social media, isn't it?
S2: Yeah. But I also would like to see that I
S2: think there are some things that visuals can capture that
S2: what cannot. So let's see. You know where there are
S2: issues that are a little bit more sensitive and requires
S2: new ones, such as emotions, values, something that also doesn't
S2: come across as well over text and visuals. When I
S2: can understand how I can play with emotions, I can
S2: relate that a lot more on why something is important
S2: versus saying that it is
S1: coming from someone who loves political cartoons, for example. I
S1: think political context and a thousand things which two pages
S1: couldn't write exactly. I want to talk about your activism
S1: then and what you've achieved so far. Tell us some
S1: of the most meaningful outcomes that you've had. Were there
S1: moments where you said, you guys, Oh my God, what
S1: I'm doing really does make a difference. One Instagram post can,
S1: as you say, tell a thousand words and you realize
S1: people suddenly understand something. How did these moments come to
S1: you and what do you feel at that time?
S2: There are definitely some polls that do better than others.
S2: I tend to use metrics like the number of shares
S2: on likes that it gets to understand exactly how are
S2: people feeling about content. The ones that are most rewarding
S2: is where it leads to some outcome that I probably
S2: didn't expect. So we'll see. You know, the Australia fire
S2: was a big one, which is that so many Singaporeans
S2: stepped up to get very involved. Perhaps, maybe not directly
S2: from what I was sharing, but everyone was talking about it.
S2: People in Singapore, when I think things to send overseas,
S2: there was so much organisation that I was like, Whoa,
S2: you know? It felt good that perhaps my post could
S2: have done a little bit more to send people to
S2: certain organisations or outlets that could have helped. To me,
S2: that was enough in that perhaps I spark that conversation
S2: that wouldn't have happened. And I think there are some
S2: things that I had to debunk mainstream narratives. I think
S2: there was a famous article that came out to see
S2: single use plastic bags, maybe more environmentally friendly than the
S2: cotton port. And I just see it is. I probably
S2: didn't get it all right, but I felt my very
S2: strong need to see that is quite misleading, and I
S2: need to tell you why. And I will sit down
S2: with a chemical engineer friend who brought me down to
S2: the nitty gritty of what the article said. And I
S2: do it all up and people are dropping me messages, commenting, saying, Hey,
S2: this helped to demystify a lot of the science. That
S2: was very rewarding because at least now I know this
S2: person is going to be an activist in their own
S2: right to tell their friends, Hey, you know, this article
S2: didn't capture the full picture or this is what you
S2: need to understand. Those would be my best moments when
S2: people are able to take my resources and use it
S2: to be activists in their own right because then the
S2: work is amplified. I guess I'll facilitate that. Is that process.
S1: I'm going to ask you as well. Obviously, when it
S1: comes to Instagram specifically and social media in general, you
S1: would be reaching a certain population, a certain demographic, right?
S1: Have you ever thought about, you know, do I need
S1: to reach out to an older audience, more mature audience?
S1: If you do have a message to convey and it's
S1: a compelling one, as you can tell from how your
S1: audience has and your followers have reacted. Do you sometimes say,
S1: I wish I could reach out to the older ones
S1: because sometimes the ones we may need to hear it
S1: there as well, right?
S2: I struggle with that because it makes me feel like,
S2: am I reaching the right people if I'm just talking
S2: to people like my age or younger? I've tried. I've
S2: been trying to giving talks to people of different demographics,
S2: and it made me realize that perhaps my skillset really
S2: lives with communicating with a certain demographic that just resonates
S2: more with my talking style, my drawing style. And hopefully
S2: they inspire people to do that in their own communities
S2: because I wouldn't be the most effective spokesperson for someone
S2: older than me. I can easily share revision. I wonder,
S2: what else can I do? I even thought about, you know,
S2: maybe should I be learning other languages, dialects to be
S2: able to convey the message to another crowd? And I
S2: think you'll always be a work in process. I would
S2: love to learn to be able to speak to more demographics,
S2: but at this point it's like, OK, I can do
S2: what's best. I'm good at it for now. And let's
S2: hope to expand this in the future.
S1: Yeah, I mean, speaking of which, we saw your Instagram
S1: livestream with Dr. Winston Chao, who is a good friend.
S1: He's been on our show. Tell us how that came about.
S1: And did you think it was important to grow your content,
S1: so to speak, to start like during these dialogues with experts?
S1: Is this something that you hope to grow even more
S1: of going forward?
S2: Yeah, it was a lot of planning. It was a
S2: planning on my part. It's quite easy to just be like, Hey, Dr.
S2: Winston child, do you want to get on this? It
S2: happened in a matter of days to me when I
S2: started my account. I felt that when I was learning
S2: about environmental studies in school, so much good research and
S2: learnings were stuck behind like scientific journals that you have
S2: to get access to. And I thought, why isn't it
S2: accessible to more people? And jargon wise, I can convince
S2: some of these things in layman's terms that people can't understand.
S2: I don't understand why it's so complicated that sometimes. So
S2: when the IPCC report came out and I saw there
S2: was four thousand pages, I put it on Twitter and
S2: I was like, Is there anybody who can explain this
S2: to me? And since you are, be explaining to me,
S2: why not get on an Instagram Live so that more
S2: people can benefit from this content and wisdom very quickly?
S2: I should say, you know, let's do this. He's worked
S2: on it and he knows it best. So I say, OK,
S2: let's get on it, and it was such a great
S2: conversation because he explains things so well. And I had
S2: so many friends who are working in various industries or schooling,
S2: who are kicking down notes and sending it to their
S2: own colleagues to say, Hey, this is what happened. Perhaps
S2: you should pay attention to this. And I thought, like, Wow,
S2: they receive such a great response that I did another
S2: one with two oceanographers who explained specific chapters, and I
S2: thought I probably would have never been able to do
S2: this myself by reading it and translating it. So why
S2: not open my platform to experts who are better able
S2: to explain this? And I can just be the voice
S2: of people who don't know what's going on to say?
S2: Please explain this to me. I just don't get it.
S2: So I thought that was really fun.
S1: All eyes are now towards COP26 in Glasgow later this year.
S1: It's a big event for everyone interested in climate science
S1: and climate change. Are you doing anything exciting in the
S1: lead up to that and during the conference?
S2: Oh, I would say that like a lot of my work,
S2: it's very heartening. Impromptu. I would love to. I have
S2: friends who are heading there, and you know, for me,
S2: the common practice is just to see my account is open.
S2: Whoever wants to use this to talk about this stuff,
S2: get on it. Even livestreaming, well, I was in Glasgow
S2: at that point. I'm guessing you'll be following closely, will you?
S1: I'll be following it. We plan to send people there
S1: to cover it, so maybe you can speak to them.
S2: Yeah.
S1: And if you're interested,
S2: yeah, of course I'm open to that and anything to
S2: make this information just more accessible to more people.
S1: I'm going to get to, you know, a last question
S1: for you. Obviously, you've been described as an activist. You've
S1: also been described as a green influencer. First time at home.
S1: You know, someone who shapes how people think about climate
S1: change and sustainability. Do you see yourself as that? And
S1: is that something that you think you want to do
S1: for the long term? And you know, obviously you have
S1: a day job. We know that. At what stage do
S1: you think, you know, I think I want to do
S1: this full time. And at what stage would you say
S1: I am ready to do this full time and it's worthwhile.
S1: I've got a good platform, and I think in terms
S1: of your work with NGOs or the government, it could
S1: do with a step up. Are you at that stage
S1: or is that something that you just want to take
S1: day by day?
S2: In terms of the we are in, while it's currently
S2: something that I would do informally, I am definitely, you know,
S2: working on other projects that I will hope to take
S2: science communication on to a bigger platform to monetise it
S2: so that we can just open these two more disciplines,
S2: more talent who would be able to communicate better than
S2: I can. I don't think I'm the only person will
S2: be interested to do this. But for now, on the
S2: Instagram page, I see myself as someone who has thoughts
S2: on climate issues and have a particular point of view.
S2: I always encourage people to not just read my stuff
S2: because I clearly have a bias. You can come here
S2: for that us, but to also know that I am
S2: in the process of learning a lot of new things,
S2: I don't think I always get things right, but I
S2: just hope that I can be someone who facilitate someone
S2: else's money. Say to, you know, my peers online whether
S2: I'm going to do this full time. But for now,
S2: I'm happy keeping it part time because I think it
S2: allows me to sit and think about what I want
S2: to do, rather than be forced to have to continuously
S2: produce content just so that I can stay alive, you know?
S1: Well, that's a great point. But in any case, even now,
S1: and as you get there, and if you do get there,
S1: we will certainly be in touch with you in this space.
S1: Thank you very
S2: much. Thanks for having me.
S1: And thanks for listening to the clever conversations. Stay up
S1: to date on CNN's coverage of climate change on CNN Asia.
S1: You can also find this and other CNN podcasts on
S1: our website and on iTunes and Spotify. The team behind
S1: this podcast are Christina Robert Insulin's and Erin Lowe. I'm
S1: Jamie Hall until next week.