1 00:00:00,159 --> 00:00:02,490 Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast. 2 00:00:04,150 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: No, 3 00:00:07,659 --> 00:00:11,770 Speaker 1: doesn't hearing that make you feel like you're on vacation. Picture, 4 00:00:11,779 --> 00:00:16,889 Speaker 1: crystal clear waters, pristine beaches, small town charm, no shortage 5 00:00:16,899 --> 00:00:20,030 Speaker 1: of any of those things in the Pacific Islands. You 6 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,299 Speaker 1: just heard some home video taken by my colleague, editor 7 00:00:23,309 --> 00:00:26,738 Speaker 1: Jeremy co he burned off some leave recently and toured 8 00:00:26,750 --> 00:00:29,739 Speaker 1: the region, a region that's been getting a lot of 9 00:00:29,750 --> 00:00:30,850 Speaker 1: attention lately 10 00:00:31,559 --> 00:00:34,418 Speaker 1: in case you haven't noticed there's a giant power contest 11 00:00:34,430 --> 00:00:38,220 Speaker 1: for these tiny countries. China and the US have been 12 00:00:38,229 --> 00:00:39,409 Speaker 1: courting them hard. 13 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: So what do they have to gain and lose in 14 00:00:42,729 --> 00:00:46,589 Speaker 1: their newly influential position? Jeremy joins me to talk about that. 15 00:00:51,540 --> 00:00:54,099 Speaker 1: Hi, Jeremy. Good to see you. Hi there. If we 16 00:00:54,110 --> 00:00:56,880 Speaker 1: look at a map, these small islands dot the ocean 17 00:00:56,889 --> 00:01:00,470 Speaker 1: between the Philippines and Hawaii, they seem to be idyllic 18 00:01:00,479 --> 00:01:04,610 Speaker 1: vacation spots. What were your first impressions when you landed? 19 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:06,889 Speaker 2: Well, to be very honest, I mean, you think of 20 00:01:06,900 --> 00:01:10,040 Speaker 2: the Pacific Islands, you think of tropical islands and all that, 21 00:01:10,230 --> 00:01:13,149 Speaker 2: but uh it was pretty chilly when I was there 22 00:01:13,250 --> 00:01:16,330 Speaker 2: because of the El Nino effect and everything in July. 23 00:01:16,339 --> 00:01:20,989 Speaker 2: The Tonga meteorological services recorded a low of 9.3 °C 24 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:24,610 Speaker 2: in Tonga. So, that's incredible. I mean, he had all 25 00:01:24,620 --> 00:01:28,580 Speaker 2: the beautiful beaches, all the waters, pristine waters and all 26 00:01:28,589 --> 00:01:30,958 Speaker 2: that and I can't really get in the water 27 00:01:31,106 --> 00:01:33,435 Speaker 2: because it was icy. Like I dip my foot and 28 00:01:33,444 --> 00:01:37,136 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, it's freezing. Ok. So I went 29 00:01:37,146 --> 00:01:38,905 Speaker 2: on a bit of snorkeling and all that. That was 30 00:01:38,916 --> 00:01:41,555 Speaker 2: all in wet suit. So I really didn't expect Tonga 31 00:01:41,566 --> 00:01:44,026 Speaker 2: to be so cold Fiji as well. People were wearing 32 00:01:44,036 --> 00:01:47,225 Speaker 2: jackets and scarfs and all that. But beyond that, the 33 00:01:47,236 --> 00:01:50,176 Speaker 2: people were very friendly. You know, sometimes when you travel, 34 00:01:50,185 --> 00:01:52,886 Speaker 2: strangers come up to you, you feel like, hey, what 35 00:01:52,896 --> 00:01:55,136 Speaker 2: do you want from me? Stuff like that. But in 36 00:01:55,146 --> 00:01:57,335 Speaker 2: Tonga and in Tuvalu less so in Fiji 37 00:01:57,412 --> 00:01:59,491 Speaker 2: you have complete strangers coming up to you, you know, 38 00:01:59,501 --> 00:02:01,692 Speaker 2: chatting with you. How's your day? What you're trying to 39 00:02:01,702 --> 00:02:02,382 Speaker 2: do stuff like 40 00:02:02,391 --> 00:02:03,912 Speaker 1: that? They weren't after your money. They were 41 00:02:04,272 --> 00:02:07,041 Speaker 2: initially, I thought that I was like, ok, what do 42 00:02:07,052 --> 00:02:09,361 Speaker 2: you want from me? You know, all my defenses were 43 00:02:09,371 --> 00:02:11,261 Speaker 2: up and everything, but at the end of the day 44 00:02:11,272 --> 00:02:14,001 Speaker 2: after the conversation, they just walked away. So it was like, 45 00:02:14,072 --> 00:02:16,261 Speaker 2: they are just interested to find out why I'm there. 46 00:02:16,272 --> 00:02:18,591 Speaker 2: You know, in many cases, I'm the first Singaporean they've 47 00:02:18,602 --> 00:02:21,572 Speaker 2: seen in those parts of the world. Um, so, yeah, 48 00:02:21,582 --> 00:02:23,641 Speaker 2: I mean, I was pleasantly surprised by that, 49 00:02:23,940 --> 00:02:26,910 Speaker 2: you know, there's that balance between trying to meet people 50 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,350 Speaker 2: and also, you know, being very careful and all that. 51 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,149 Speaker 2: So that's a balance that that's really hard to, to 52 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 2: gauge as well. But Tonga specifically, you know, there are 53 00:02:34,929 --> 00:02:37,520 Speaker 2: signs it's not really recovered from the volcanic eruption as 54 00:02:37,529 --> 00:02:40,508 Speaker 2: well as the tsunami last year, the western coast of 55 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,220 Speaker 2: the main island, all the results are wiped out in 56 00:02:43,229 --> 00:02:45,579 Speaker 2: some cases, you can see like the concrete floor and 57 00:02:45,589 --> 00:02:48,198 Speaker 2: all that, but that's about it. All the results are gone. 58 00:02:49,309 --> 00:02:52,740 Speaker 1: So walking the streets, you obviously talk to locals. Did 59 00:02:52,750 --> 00:02:55,029 Speaker 1: you get a sense of this tug of war for 60 00:02:55,038 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: influence by Beijing and Washington? Did locals seem to be 61 00:02:58,729 --> 00:02:59,279 Speaker 1: aware of 62 00:02:59,288 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 2: it? I think they're aware of it. Certainly because there's 63 00:03:02,970 --> 00:03:04,949 Speaker 2: been a lot of coverage and there's been a lot 64 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,448 Speaker 2: of movements from the US as well as China in 65 00:03:07,460 --> 00:03:10,550 Speaker 2: the past few months specifically. But I don't think that's 66 00:03:10,559 --> 00:03:14,119 Speaker 2: something that's foremost on their minds. I mean, you think 67 00:03:14,130 --> 00:03:16,529 Speaker 2: about these Pacific Islands, they are very far from the 68 00:03:16,538 --> 00:03:17,699 Speaker 2: rest of the world. They're very remote, 69 00:03:17,910 --> 00:03:21,750 Speaker 2: but they are very strategic importance, particularly during World War 70 00:03:21,758 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 2: Two as well. In fact, there are lots of World 71 00:03:23,889 --> 00:03:26,728 Speaker 2: War Two wrecks over all these islands. That's a sign 72 00:03:26,740 --> 00:03:30,300 Speaker 2: of how important these islands are. And even so today 73 00:03:30,309 --> 00:03:33,300 Speaker 2: because it's a region that's very critical to global shipping 74 00:03:33,309 --> 00:03:35,490 Speaker 2: channels as well as the ocean economy 75 00:03:35,699 --> 00:03:38,869 Speaker 2: and if touch wood, if there are any conflicts in 76 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,550 Speaker 2: the Indo Pacific in the future. These are regions very 77 00:03:42,559 --> 00:03:44,860 Speaker 2: key outposts where countries would want to, you know, do 78 00:03:44,899 --> 00:03:47,610 Speaker 2: their ships as well as to fuel their ships as well. 79 00:03:47,729 --> 00:03:50,839 Speaker 2: And more than that these countries, even though they are 80 00:03:50,850 --> 00:03:52,729 Speaker 2: all very tiny islands, they are very vast 81 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,910 Speaker 2: economic zones, which is the ocean around the islands. So 82 00:03:56,919 --> 00:03:59,380 Speaker 2: these are islands that could make them very in a 83 00:03:59,389 --> 00:04:03,229 Speaker 2: way critical partners as countries like the US, China, even Australia, 84 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:05,270 Speaker 2: New Zealand or other parts of the world, they try 85 00:04:05,279 --> 00:04:09,149 Speaker 2: to look for deep sea fishing, minerals, food as well 86 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:09,830 Speaker 2: and so on. 87 00:04:10,190 --> 00:04:12,339 Speaker 2: But if you look at all these islands, traditionally their 88 00:04:12,350 --> 00:04:15,419 Speaker 2: main allies of the US as well as its partners, 89 00:04:15,429 --> 00:04:17,940 Speaker 2: including Australia and New Zealand because of how close it 90 00:04:17,950 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 2: is to these countries and only four of these countries, 91 00:04:21,170 --> 00:04:24,988 Speaker 2: Tuvalu among them currently recognize Taiwan over China. At the 92 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 2: same time, we also see that Beijing has made a 93 00:04:27,049 --> 00:04:29,789 Speaker 2: lot of investments in this region. There's a lot of 94 00:04:29,799 --> 00:04:33,179 Speaker 2: China aid projects going on as well. So in a way, 95 00:04:33,190 --> 00:04:36,010 Speaker 2: China has used investments a lot of money to lure 96 00:04:36,019 --> 00:04:36,940 Speaker 2: these 97 00:04:37,410 --> 00:04:40,058 Speaker 2: islands away from Taiwan. In the past, there were more 98 00:04:40,070 --> 00:04:42,609 Speaker 2: of Taiwan's allies, but now there are only four Palau 99 00:04:42,790 --> 00:04:45,100 Speaker 2: Tuvalu Nauru, as well as the Marshall Islands. 100 00:04:45,488 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 2: So seeing all these going on, Washington is also getting 101 00:04:48,928 --> 00:04:51,549 Speaker 2: a bit worried. So they've also stepped up their investments 102 00:04:51,559 --> 00:04:54,149 Speaker 2: and engagements with these islands. And a few weeks ago, 103 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,349 Speaker 2: the US Agency for International Development, the administrator of this 104 00:04:57,359 --> 00:05:00,359 Speaker 2: agency visited the two biggest Pacific Island nations, Papua, New 105 00:05:00,369 --> 00:05:03,100 Speaker 2: Guinea and Fiji. And it also opened offices there for 106 00:05:03,109 --> 00:05:04,058 Speaker 2: the very first time 107 00:05:04,869 --> 00:05:07,950 Speaker 1: you mentioned aid. It has been said that for these 108 00:05:07,959 --> 00:05:12,459 Speaker 1: islands trade and investment are more desirable than aid. Is 109 00:05:12,470 --> 00:05:15,130 Speaker 1: Chinese money winning these islands over? 110 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,459 Speaker 2: Oh slowly but surely I would say because the Chinese 111 00:05:18,470 --> 00:05:21,940 Speaker 2: presence there is huge like in Tonga, for instance, you 112 00:05:21,950 --> 00:05:25,700 Speaker 2: look at the supermarkets, the provision shops, almost all of 113 00:05:25,709 --> 00:05:30,209 Speaker 2: them are Chinese run. It's really surprising, Tuvalu recognizes Taiwan, 114 00:05:30,220 --> 00:05:32,570 Speaker 2: but I saw lots of Chinese there as well. I 115 00:05:32,579 --> 00:05:34,649 Speaker 2: spoke to some of them. So they are from China, 116 00:05:34,660 --> 00:05:37,488 Speaker 2: not from Taiwan, they live there, they live there so 117 00:05:37,500 --> 00:05:40,209 Speaker 2: they run the restaurants, there are lots of Chinese restaurants 118 00:05:40,220 --> 00:05:42,230 Speaker 2: over there. Ok, maybe restaurants is not the right 119 00:05:42,420 --> 00:05:45,808 Speaker 2: eateries. They are not on that level, supermarkets as well 120 00:05:45,820 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 2: as provision shops, all Chinese run. So it's really surprising, 121 00:05:49,209 --> 00:05:51,868 Speaker 2: I saw reports saying that more than 90% of the 122 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,709 Speaker 2: more than 400 supermarkets and shops in Tonga are run 123 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:58,290 Speaker 2: by the Chinese. So I spoke with some people over 124 00:05:58,299 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 2: there in some ways, it's a national security threat, right? 125 00:06:00,890 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 2: I mean, if something were to happen, what's going to happen? 126 00:06:03,450 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 2: If the Chinese run off, you would have no provision 127 00:06:05,850 --> 00:06:08,868 Speaker 2: shops or supermarkets at all. So that's something that's 128 00:06:09,390 --> 00:06:11,519 Speaker 2: to me it sounds a little concerning but maybe the 129 00:06:11,529 --> 00:06:14,730 Speaker 2: Tongans are not so concerned about that. But there is 130 00:06:14,738 --> 00:06:17,510 Speaker 2: a bit of tensions between the locals as well as 131 00:06:17,519 --> 00:06:21,488 Speaker 2: Chinese in 2006. I believe there were riots in the 132 00:06:21,500 --> 00:06:25,570 Speaker 2: Tongan capital Nuka and the Chinese businesses were targeted. And 133 00:06:25,579 --> 00:06:27,539 Speaker 2: I spoke with some Tongans. They said that there is 134 00:06:27,549 --> 00:06:29,958 Speaker 2: still a bit of tension between the locals and the 135 00:06:29,970 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 2: Chinese because they view the Chinese as having come in. 136 00:06:32,850 --> 00:06:35,239 Speaker 2: You know, so in and took taken over lots of 137 00:06:35,250 --> 00:06:38,820 Speaker 2: these businesses, very important businesses as well. So seeing all 138 00:06:38,829 --> 00:06:39,130 Speaker 2: that 139 00:06:39,285 --> 00:06:42,595 Speaker 2: us has also stepped up its engagements there. Just recently, 140 00:06:42,605 --> 00:06:45,234 Speaker 2: Antony Blinken, the US Secretary of State pledged to step 141 00:06:45,244 --> 00:06:48,505 Speaker 2: up support for Pacific nations during a visit to Tonga 142 00:06:48,515 --> 00:06:51,184 Speaker 2: just a few months ago, the US open embassy over there. 143 00:06:51,195 --> 00:06:55,274 Speaker 2: So he warned about the perils of predatory Chinese investments 144 00:06:55,285 --> 00:06:58,595 Speaker 2: even as he dedicated the new embassy over there and 145 00:06:58,605 --> 00:07:01,174 Speaker 2: not just him, lots of officials are fanning out across 146 00:07:01,184 --> 00:07:03,674 Speaker 2: the region as well in a bid to counter Chinese 147 00:07:03,684 --> 00:07:04,415 Speaker 2: actions there 148 00:07:04,910 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: when it comes to the American playbook. Though this region 149 00:07:08,290 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: has seen promises of us engagement before. In fact, including 150 00:07:12,649 --> 00:07:16,489 Speaker 1: when Mr Biden was vice president. Nothing really came of 151 00:07:16,500 --> 00:07:18,959 Speaker 1: that though. Do you think that's the case again today? 152 00:07:19,059 --> 00:07:23,220 Speaker 2: Well, what's really different then? Was that after the Cold War, 153 00:07:23,230 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 2: the US basically neglected the region. So those regions were 154 00:07:26,890 --> 00:07:30,339 Speaker 2: in Australia and New Zealand's backyard right. So most of 155 00:07:30,407 --> 00:07:33,578 Speaker 2: the investments, the aid came from Australia as well as 156 00:07:33,588 --> 00:07:36,377 Speaker 2: New Zealand. And more recently, we saw a lot of 157 00:07:36,388 --> 00:07:40,127 Speaker 2: Chinese investments as well. But the question now is the 158 00:07:40,138 --> 00:07:41,917 Speaker 2: US is coming in a big way but is it 159 00:07:41,928 --> 00:07:45,256 Speaker 2: too late to the game? Because Chinese have already invested 160 00:07:45,268 --> 00:07:47,678 Speaker 2: a lot there, lots of Chinese aid projects even further 161 00:07:47,687 --> 00:07:49,937 Speaker 2: a field like in Timor Leste where I was not 162 00:07:49,947 --> 00:07:52,127 Speaker 2: too long ago, there were China aid projects as well. 163 00:07:52,138 --> 00:07:55,697 Speaker 2: Lots of Chinese over there. So that part of the Pacific, 164 00:07:55,906 --> 00:07:59,496 Speaker 2: that's a huge Chinese presence. So clearly, China has had 165 00:07:59,506 --> 00:08:03,756 Speaker 2: multiyear head start. So whether Washington's actions there, will it 166 00:08:03,765 --> 00:08:06,735 Speaker 2: be enough right now? That's a big question already. You 167 00:08:06,746 --> 00:08:10,276 Speaker 2: have seen some countries casting themselves in Beijing's camp like 168 00:08:10,286 --> 00:08:13,365 Speaker 2: the Solomon Islands, for instance, they have signed defense and 169 00:08:13,376 --> 00:08:18,555 Speaker 2: policing pacts with China over American objections. And also Fiji, 170 00:08:18,566 --> 00:08:21,335 Speaker 2: the previous government agreed to law enforcement cooperation with 171 00:08:21,403 --> 00:08:25,354 Speaker 2: which gives Chinese officials sweeping powers on the territory even 172 00:08:25,364 --> 00:08:28,674 Speaker 2: though the current government has vowed to tear up this agreement. 173 00:08:28,734 --> 00:08:31,563 Speaker 2: But clearly you can see some sort of top and 174 00:08:31,574 --> 00:08:34,512 Speaker 2: pull between the US and China that's happening over there 175 00:08:34,523 --> 00:08:37,174 Speaker 2: as well. But on the other hand, on the flip side, 176 00:08:37,184 --> 00:08:40,013 Speaker 2: on the more positive side for these countries, because there's 177 00:08:40,023 --> 00:08:43,374 Speaker 2: this geopolitical light that's shining on them right now. They 178 00:08:43,383 --> 00:08:45,343 Speaker 2: are trying to balance ties between the US and China 179 00:08:45,354 --> 00:08:46,833 Speaker 2: obviously and trying to get what they 180 00:08:46,901 --> 00:08:50,072 Speaker 2: they can from both nations. And in many cases, that's aid, 181 00:08:50,081 --> 00:08:54,351 Speaker 2: that's investments, that's infrastructure project and Tonga, for instance, they're 182 00:08:54,361 --> 00:08:58,012 Speaker 2: hoping for bolted cooperation with the US on improved coastal 183 00:08:58,021 --> 00:09:01,952 Speaker 2: surveillance because the country faces a very, a pretty big 184 00:09:01,961 --> 00:09:04,711 Speaker 2: drug trafficking issue right now, an issue which Fiji also 185 00:09:04,721 --> 00:09:07,551 Speaker 2: faces because these countries in the past, they used to 186 00:09:07,562 --> 00:09:10,521 Speaker 2: be like a transit point between the US and Australia 187 00:09:10,530 --> 00:09:12,312 Speaker 2: and New Zealand where drugs come through. 188 00:09:12,539 --> 00:09:14,770 Speaker 2: So in the past, it was cocaine. So that was 189 00:09:14,780 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 2: too expensive for these people to buy. But in recent years, 190 00:09:18,090 --> 00:09:19,750 Speaker 2: that's become meth. Wow, 191 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:22,630 Speaker 1: that sounds like a topic for another podcast. I want 192 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: to pick up on a point that you made saying 193 00:09:24,950 --> 00:09:29,710 Speaker 1: China and the Solomon Islands signing a security agreement that 194 00:09:29,719 --> 00:09:33,890 Speaker 1: has actually caused concern about regional agreements being undermined. 195 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,309 Speaker 1: Is there strength in numbers, Jeremy? Are these nations in 196 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,450 Speaker 1: the Pacific working together to achieve more negotiating power or 197 00:09:41,460 --> 00:09:43,289 Speaker 1: is there a wedge coming between them? 198 00:09:44,190 --> 00:09:48,049 Speaker 2: I mean, as you've seen in other parts of the world, in, 199 00:09:48,090 --> 00:09:50,858 Speaker 2: in ASEAN, for instance, countries usually act in their own 200 00:09:50,869 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 2: self interest. I mean, of course, there's strength in numbers 201 00:09:53,770 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 2: and these countries, they are small remote islands, they know 202 00:09:57,090 --> 00:10:00,449 Speaker 2: that there is strength in numbers. But every country at 203 00:10:00,460 --> 00:10:02,080 Speaker 2: the end of the day is working in its own 204 00:10:02,090 --> 00:10:05,409 Speaker 2: best interests like Solomon Islands, for instance, signing the security 205 00:10:05,419 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 2: pact with Beijing because that's in their own interest, getting 206 00:10:08,409 --> 00:10:09,940 Speaker 2: aid investments and so on. 207 00:10:10,210 --> 00:10:13,699 Speaker 2: But having said that in August 4 Pacific Island leaders 208 00:10:13,710 --> 00:10:18,030 Speaker 2: arrived in Vanuatu to consider declaring a neutral position in 209 00:10:18,039 --> 00:10:20,849 Speaker 2: the Pacific. Amid this contest between the US and China 210 00:10:20,859 --> 00:10:23,978 Speaker 2: as well. These countries are Papua New Guinea Solomon Islands, Fiji, 211 00:10:23,989 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 2: New Caledonia, which is administered by France as well as 212 00:10:27,570 --> 00:10:30,979 Speaker 2: Vanuatu as well. And after the meeting, the Vanuatu Deputy 213 00:10:30,989 --> 00:10:33,718 Speaker 2: Prime Minister said the leaders would consider declaring a region 214 00:10:33,729 --> 00:10:35,479 Speaker 2: of peace and neutrality. 215 00:10:35,710 --> 00:10:39,719 Speaker 2: But how would that work? Well, clearly, there's a tug 216 00:10:39,729 --> 00:10:42,489 Speaker 2: of war that's happening over there and it's only these 217 00:10:42,500 --> 00:10:44,890 Speaker 2: four countries that are involved in this pact. So clearly, 218 00:10:44,900 --> 00:10:46,728 Speaker 2: we're going to see a lot of movements in the 219 00:10:46,739 --> 00:10:49,539 Speaker 2: Pacific Islands over the coming years as well. That's become 220 00:10:49,549 --> 00:10:52,349 Speaker 2: a new region that's been contested by the major parts 221 00:10:52,359 --> 00:10:52,979 Speaker 2: of the world. 222 00:10:53,590 --> 00:10:57,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, clearly, deeper relations with these countries is the goal. 223 00:10:57,630 --> 00:11:00,799 Speaker 1: But do the Pacific Islands really know what they're getting 224 00:11:00,809 --> 00:11:03,840 Speaker 1: themselves into? We'll get Jeremy's take after this. 225 00:11:09,750 --> 00:11:12,869 Speaker 1: Hello, everyone. My name is Christina and I'm Adrian and 226 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,199 Speaker 1: we're the host of a podcast called Work It If 227 00:11:15,210 --> 00:11:17,210 Speaker 1: you never heard of it. Well, it's a good time 228 00:11:17,219 --> 00:11:19,919 Speaker 1: to tap in, in the last 20 episodes. We've discussed 229 00:11:19,929 --> 00:11:23,030 Speaker 1: topics like how to negotiate for a salary increase or 230 00:11:23,039 --> 00:11:25,630 Speaker 1: how to get along with younger colleagues who have different 231 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: values from you, which 232 00:11:27,114 --> 00:11:30,744 Speaker 1: incidentally it's our top performing episode if work consumes your 233 00:11:30,755 --> 00:11:34,405 Speaker 1: life and you want some perspective on issues like management stress, 234 00:11:34,414 --> 00:11:38,304 Speaker 1: even office romance. Then this podcast should be on your list. 235 00:11:38,505 --> 00:11:41,385 Speaker 1: A new episode drops every Monday. Catch us on the 236 00:11:41,395 --> 00:11:44,424 Speaker 1: CN A app or wherever you get your podcast. 237 00:11:54,409 --> 00:11:58,358 Speaker 1: Welcome back, Jeremy. Some analysts have said these Pacific Island 238 00:11:58,369 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: nations are nothing more than pawns in the geopolitical rivalry 239 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,309 Speaker 1: that there is a patronizing nuance to this narrative and 240 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,039 Speaker 1: that these countries really don't actually know what they're doing, 241 00:12:09,049 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: what they're getting themselves into. What do you think? 242 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,539 Speaker 2: Well, there is certainly that school of thought as well, 243 00:12:14,549 --> 00:12:17,469 Speaker 2: but that's the other that because these Pacific Islands are 244 00:12:17,479 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 2: very small, they are very vulnerable as well. In many cases, 245 00:12:20,570 --> 00:12:22,598 Speaker 2: climate change, et cetera, et cetera. 246 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,289 Speaker 2: Because of that, they pursue a very nonaligned foreign policy stance, 247 00:12:26,299 --> 00:12:30,209 Speaker 2: which means they engage with all large countries and to 248 00:12:30,469 --> 00:12:32,559 Speaker 2: at the same time, you know, to pursue their self-interest 249 00:12:32,570 --> 00:12:36,010 Speaker 2: as well. So one view is that because of this 250 00:12:36,020 --> 00:12:39,169 Speaker 2: us China rivalry that's going on. These countries in the 251 00:12:39,179 --> 00:12:42,510 Speaker 2: Pacific are also using this attention to pursue them their 252 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,309 Speaker 2: own self interest as well as to attract more resources. 253 00:12:45,330 --> 00:12:48,590 Speaker 2: And because of that, there are also more potential partners 254 00:12:48,599 --> 00:12:50,630 Speaker 2: who are lining up with promises to get 255 00:12:50,710 --> 00:12:55,039 Speaker 2: more choices, more money basically. So that's something that will 256 00:12:55,049 --> 00:12:57,950 Speaker 2: benefit them as well. Because if you look at Suva, 257 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,489 Speaker 2: for instance, the capital of Fiji, China renovated the civic center, 258 00:13:01,500 --> 00:13:04,340 Speaker 2: they also built a $6 million hospital, as well as 259 00:13:04,349 --> 00:13:08,409 Speaker 2: two major bridges in the capital. So these are solely 260 00:13:08,429 --> 00:13:12,710 Speaker 2: needed infrastructure projects that by themselves, these countries might not 261 00:13:12,719 --> 00:13:15,500 Speaker 2: be able to afford. So, you know, in some ways 262 00:13:15,510 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 2: it's enhanced the livelihood of the locals as well. 263 00:13:18,780 --> 00:13:22,219 Speaker 2: And beyond all these infrastructure projects, you have to ask yourself, 264 00:13:22,229 --> 00:13:25,030 Speaker 2: what do the big powers really want from them? One 265 00:13:25,039 --> 00:13:28,468 Speaker 2: is their geopolitical positions as well. And also because even 266 00:13:28,479 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 2: though these are very small countries, they still have a 267 00:13:30,849 --> 00:13:34,098 Speaker 2: vote in the United Nations. So if you pull them 268 00:13:34,109 --> 00:13:36,299 Speaker 2: along to your side, they might vote along with you 269 00:13:36,309 --> 00:13:39,090 Speaker 2: as well. Which is why the US, in some ways, 270 00:13:39,163 --> 00:13:40,963 Speaker 2: some analysts have said that the US was caught by 271 00:13:40,973 --> 00:13:44,052 Speaker 2: surprise over Chinese investments in this region and now they 272 00:13:44,062 --> 00:13:46,311 Speaker 2: try to play catch up. So now they're going in, 273 00:13:46,322 --> 00:13:48,713 Speaker 2: in a big way, officials flying there all the time, 274 00:13:48,723 --> 00:13:51,732 Speaker 2: Secretary of State Blinken as well. But is it enough 275 00:13:51,742 --> 00:13:54,662 Speaker 2: because even though they are pursuing their own security agreements 276 00:13:54,672 --> 00:13:58,402 Speaker 2: alongside close ally Australia as well, but the Chinese in 277 00:13:58,413 --> 00:13:59,473 Speaker 2: particular have been there 278 00:13:59,546 --> 00:14:01,915 Speaker 2: for quite a long time. Will it be enough to, 279 00:14:01,926 --> 00:14:05,306 Speaker 2: you know, replicate or even to replace the Chinese? I'm 280 00:14:05,315 --> 00:14:05,526 Speaker 2: not so 281 00:14:05,535 --> 00:14:07,366 Speaker 1: sure. Yeah, it sounds like a lot of catching up 282 00:14:07,375 --> 00:14:10,375 Speaker 1: to do from Washington. We're talking about the US and 283 00:14:10,385 --> 00:14:15,236 Speaker 1: China but other countries too like India, Indonesia, South Korea, 284 00:14:15,245 --> 00:14:17,906 Speaker 1: they're also vying for a foothold in the name of 285 00:14:17,916 --> 00:14:19,856 Speaker 1: their own national interests, aren't they? 286 00:14:20,130 --> 00:14:23,830 Speaker 2: Certainly? I mean, in May, South Korea's president hosted the 287 00:14:23,840 --> 00:14:27,359 Speaker 2: first ever Korea Pacific Island summit in Seoul and also 288 00:14:27,369 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 2: in May Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi visited Papua New Guinea. 289 00:14:30,729 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 2: And in late July, you saw French President Macron visiting 290 00:14:34,010 --> 00:14:36,179 Speaker 2: New Caledonia, which is a French territory in the South 291 00:14:36,190 --> 00:14:37,820 Speaker 2: Pacific as well as Vanuatu. 292 00:14:38,650 --> 00:14:41,250 Speaker 2: So clearly, it's not just the US and China who 293 00:14:41,260 --> 00:14:44,210 Speaker 2: are eyeing this region because this region has a lot 294 00:14:44,219 --> 00:14:48,789 Speaker 2: of resources, especially in increasingly resource scarce world. You you 295 00:14:48,799 --> 00:14:51,119 Speaker 2: want to look at fishing and all that these countries 296 00:14:51,130 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 2: have huge territorial regions as well which you can in 297 00:14:54,530 --> 00:14:57,099 Speaker 2: a way exploit. So all these countries are looking at 298 00:14:57,109 --> 00:15:00,159 Speaker 2: these regions as well. Even Indonesia to some extent, 299 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:04,510 Speaker 2: in some ways, it gives these islands more options because 300 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,260 Speaker 2: beyond choosing between the US and China, they now have 301 00:15:07,270 --> 00:15:10,609 Speaker 2: maybe other countries like South Korea, Japan and India in 302 00:15:10,619 --> 00:15:13,479 Speaker 2: some ways, will it work out to everyone's benefits? I 303 00:15:13,489 --> 00:15:16,260 Speaker 2: think that's something that the political leaders will have to 304 00:15:16,270 --> 00:15:20,099 Speaker 2: be very aware of to avoid being pawns in the conflict. 305 00:15:20,799 --> 00:15:23,929 Speaker 1: But where does all of this leave Australia? Australia is 306 00:15:23,940 --> 00:15:27,380 Speaker 1: a country by virtue of geography, right? Among other things 307 00:15:27,390 --> 00:15:28,539 Speaker 1: that has had a massive 308 00:15:28,630 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: influence over the Pacific Islands for decades? Certainly, 309 00:15:31,890 --> 00:15:33,510 Speaker 2: I mean, because if you look at getting to the 310 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:36,979 Speaker 2: Pacific from our region, anyway, the easiest point of entry 311 00:15:36,989 --> 00:15:39,340 Speaker 2: would be from Australia or New Zealand because they are 312 00:15:39,349 --> 00:15:43,820 Speaker 2: close neighbors. And according to a recent Lowy Institute of Research, 313 00:15:43,830 --> 00:15:47,559 Speaker 2: China's growing Pacific footprint is looming large on Australian mines 314 00:15:47,570 --> 00:15:51,409 Speaker 2: and is shaping citizen attitudes. In fact, 84% of the 315 00:15:51,419 --> 00:15:55,260 Speaker 2: respondents of this survey favor using aid to counter Beijing's 316 00:15:55,270 --> 00:15:56,659 Speaker 2: activities in the region 317 00:15:57,099 --> 00:16:00,599 Speaker 2: and on its own, the Albanese government has also shown 318 00:16:00,609 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 2: a very strong commitment to working with the Pacific Family 319 00:16:03,969 --> 00:16:06,900 Speaker 2: on their priorities including like climate change as well as 320 00:16:07,059 --> 00:16:11,049 Speaker 2: the recovery from COVID-19. But instead of just giving up money, 321 00:16:11,059 --> 00:16:13,950 Speaker 2: like what China is doing, the Australian government is pursuing 322 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:17,119 Speaker 2: what it calls a model of public private partnerships, which 323 00:16:17,130 --> 00:16:19,940 Speaker 2: is a sort of a fund that's set to encourage 324 00:16:19,950 --> 00:16:21,659 Speaker 2: businesses to invest in the region. 325 00:16:21,979 --> 00:16:24,630 Speaker 2: And the Foreign Minister said that this framework will rebuild 326 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,229 Speaker 2: and revitalize Australia's development program to ensure a better future 327 00:16:28,239 --> 00:16:31,020 Speaker 2: for the Indo Pacific. But again, is it too little 328 00:16:31,030 --> 00:16:33,190 Speaker 2: too late? Um That's something we will have to see 329 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:34,190 Speaker 2: over the coming years 330 00:16:34,549 --> 00:16:37,469 Speaker 1: and we definitely have to talk about climate change. It's 331 00:16:37,479 --> 00:16:40,820 Speaker 1: widely recognized that these countries are right on the front 332 00:16:40,830 --> 00:16:44,010 Speaker 1: line and for them, climate change is the greatest security 333 00:16:44,020 --> 00:16:47,059 Speaker 1: threat that they face. There's a sobering photo you took 334 00:16:47,070 --> 00:16:49,390 Speaker 1: Jeremy that I saw where you're standing on a tiny 335 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:53,479 Speaker 1: strip of land separating the central lagoon in Tuvalu from 336 00:16:53,489 --> 00:16:56,799 Speaker 1: the waters of the Pacific. How much is this region 337 00:16:56,809 --> 00:17:00,890 Speaker 1: able to leverage or capitalize on their strategic importance to 338 00:17:00,900 --> 00:17:02,219 Speaker 1: get the world to help them. 339 00:17:02,429 --> 00:17:04,910 Speaker 2: Well, Theresa, in fact, that was the photo, I mean, 340 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,369 Speaker 2: not of mine, I've seen similar pictures that prompted me 341 00:17:07,380 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 2: to visit Tuvalu. I saw like, wow, this is amazing. 342 00:17:10,770 --> 00:17:13,329 Speaker 2: This country is getting submerged, you know, and there's only 343 00:17:13,339 --> 00:17:16,099 Speaker 2: a very tiny strip of land that's separating the lagoon 344 00:17:16,109 --> 00:17:18,939 Speaker 2: from the Pacific Ocean. In fact, you can walk across 345 00:17:18,949 --> 00:17:22,020 Speaker 2: in the narrowest part. It's just a tiny road and 346 00:17:22,030 --> 00:17:24,780 Speaker 2: that's it, separating the, the waters and 347 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,209 Speaker 2: the three days I was there, it was raining every day. 348 00:17:27,219 --> 00:17:30,020 Speaker 2: And after the rains, you can see how the floods, 349 00:17:30,030 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 2: the roads were flooded. I mean, not everywhere, but there were, 350 00:17:33,130 --> 00:17:35,479 Speaker 2: there were floods in pretty much a lot of places 351 00:17:35,489 --> 00:17:40,540 Speaker 2: in Tuvalu. So this country is in extreme threat of disappearing. 352 00:17:40,550 --> 00:17:42,260 Speaker 2: In fact, it's expected to be one of the first 353 00:17:42,270 --> 00:17:45,379 Speaker 2: countries in the world to be completely lost to climate change. 354 00:17:45,489 --> 00:17:45,930 Speaker 2: And 355 00:17:46,569 --> 00:17:50,619 Speaker 2: if the current rates of sea level rise continues as expected, 356 00:17:50,630 --> 00:17:53,169 Speaker 2: some estimates suggest that half the land area of the 357 00:17:53,180 --> 00:17:56,270 Speaker 2: capital will be flooded by tidal waters within three decades, 358 00:17:56,510 --> 00:17:58,849 Speaker 2: maybe not even three decades. Because as I'm seeing right 359 00:17:58,859 --> 00:18:01,540 Speaker 2: now after the rain, you know, large parts of the 360 00:18:01,550 --> 00:18:05,819 Speaker 2: capital are underwater and you see how narrow the strip 361 00:18:05,829 --> 00:18:08,390 Speaker 2: of land is. You know, it doesn't take much. It's 362 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:11,660 Speaker 2: very low lying, correct. So if the waters just rise, 363 00:18:11,670 --> 00:18:13,939 Speaker 2: that tiny strip of land that I was standing on 364 00:18:13,949 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 2: will be submerged totally. 365 00:18:15,780 --> 00:18:19,409 Speaker 2: And that country is super tiny. It's, you can walk 366 00:18:19,420 --> 00:18:22,250 Speaker 2: from end to end off the main island within, I 367 00:18:22,260 --> 00:18:25,188 Speaker 2: would say maybe three hours. It's just a couple of 368 00:18:25,199 --> 00:18:27,650 Speaker 2: kilometers long. I think it's 12 kilometers. If I'm not wrong, 369 00:18:28,020 --> 00:18:31,189 Speaker 2: that's the length and the width you can walk across 370 00:18:31,199 --> 00:18:34,900 Speaker 2: in 15 minutes for the widest part of the island. 371 00:18:34,910 --> 00:18:36,209 Speaker 2: So that's how big it is. 372 00:18:36,530 --> 00:18:39,209 Speaker 2: So already you can see that the buildings are clustering 373 00:18:39,219 --> 00:18:42,198 Speaker 2: to the center of the island as close as they 374 00:18:42,209 --> 00:18:45,170 Speaker 2: can because the sites are being washed away. In fact, 375 00:18:45,180 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 2: as you walk along, you see some houses that are 376 00:18:48,050 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 2: abandoned because they have been lost to the flood waters, 377 00:18:51,010 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 2: the sea waters, in fact, and interestingly, 378 00:18:55,349 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 2: the cemeteries were along the beaches and because of the 379 00:19:00,290 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 2: rising sea levels, you can see some tombs in houses 380 00:19:03,130 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 2: as well. So that's how bad the situation is right now. 381 00:19:07,239 --> 00:19:11,540 Speaker 2: If you recall in 2021 the then Foreign Minister stood 382 00:19:11,550 --> 00:19:14,829 Speaker 2: in the ocean to deliver a speech for cop 26 383 00:19:14,910 --> 00:19:18,169 Speaker 2: knee deep in water. So that's really how bad the 384 00:19:18,180 --> 00:19:21,689 Speaker 2: situation is, but it's not just Tuvalu. Many other low 385 00:19:21,699 --> 00:19:24,729 Speaker 2: lying Pacific Islands also suffer from this threat of rising 386 00:19:24,739 --> 00:19:25,750 Speaker 2: sea levels. 387 00:19:25,829 --> 00:19:29,579 Speaker 2: According to a new UN report, countries like Kiribati, Tuvalu, 388 00:19:29,589 --> 00:19:32,739 Speaker 2: of course, and the Marshall Islands, they are super vulnerable 389 00:19:32,750 --> 00:19:35,599 Speaker 2: to this rising sea level because the Pacific region is 390 00:19:35,609 --> 00:19:39,219 Speaker 2: experiencing an approximate increase of four millimeters of sea level 391 00:19:39,229 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 2: rise annually in certain regions, which is higher than the 392 00:19:42,770 --> 00:19:44,319 Speaker 2: worldwide average. So, 393 00:19:44,829 --> 00:19:47,619 Speaker 2: you know, if these countries were lost to the ocean, 394 00:19:47,630 --> 00:19:50,479 Speaker 2: it's a big loss as well for not just the 395 00:19:50,489 --> 00:19:53,170 Speaker 2: Islanders themselves, but also for the whole world because you 396 00:19:53,180 --> 00:19:56,239 Speaker 2: lose cultures, you lose histories as well, which is why 397 00:19:56,250 --> 00:19:59,489 Speaker 2: Tuvalu has also uploaded itself on the one of the 398 00:19:59,500 --> 00:20:01,479 Speaker 2: first countries in the world to do so. Oh, wow. 399 00:20:01,489 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 2: I didn't know that. It's very interesting. I don't know 400 00:20:03,569 --> 00:20:04,699 Speaker 2: how exactly it works, but 401 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:09,030 Speaker 2: basically they taking pictures, videos, recording oral histories, whatever to 402 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:12,379 Speaker 2: upload them to the. So in the event that the 403 00:20:12,390 --> 00:20:16,650 Speaker 2: country is lost forever, it's Sommer underwater, future generations can 404 00:20:16,660 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 2: still access all these islands, landmarks, heritage, et cetera and 405 00:20:20,369 --> 00:20:20,849 Speaker 2: so on. 406 00:20:20,910 --> 00:20:23,510 Speaker 1: So do you think they're able to leverage their position 407 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:24,689 Speaker 1: and get help? 408 00:20:25,089 --> 00:20:27,540 Speaker 2: There is some sort of land reclamation that's going on 409 00:20:27,550 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 2: in Tuvalu? I was having a chat with some foreigners 410 00:20:30,569 --> 00:20:34,859 Speaker 2: over there because Tuvalu recognizes Taiwan, right? We were discussing, 411 00:20:34,869 --> 00:20:38,790 Speaker 2: we thought about if Tuvalu were to switch recognition to Beijing, 412 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:40,939 Speaker 2: maybe there will be a lot more investment and aid 413 00:20:40,949 --> 00:20:44,329 Speaker 2: coming in. But as it is right now, very limited 414 00:20:44,339 --> 00:20:47,130 Speaker 2: land reclamation that's going on. Um I don't know whether 415 00:20:47,140 --> 00:20:49,739 Speaker 2: it will be enough to arrest the threat of the 416 00:20:49,750 --> 00:20:53,209 Speaker 2: rising sea levels because it's a very small area that's 417 00:20:53,219 --> 00:20:54,900 Speaker 2: being reclaimed right now. So 418 00:20:55,189 --> 00:20:57,469 Speaker 2: can they move everyone to that island and also they 419 00:20:57,479 --> 00:21:00,290 Speaker 2: have to build it, the island high enough to counter 420 00:21:00,300 --> 00:21:03,099 Speaker 2: the threat of rising sea levels as well. So in 421 00:21:03,109 --> 00:21:05,540 Speaker 2: some cases might be too late, especially for, for the 422 00:21:05,550 --> 00:21:09,939 Speaker 2: smaller tolls around the region as well because the focus, 423 00:21:09,949 --> 00:21:12,349 Speaker 2: the main attention will be on the major cities. What 424 00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,180 Speaker 2: about the smaller ones, the ones with less villages and 425 00:21:15,189 --> 00:21:18,390 Speaker 2: so on? I mean, the more pessimistic side of me 426 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,149 Speaker 2: feels that these islands probably are gone forever. 427 00:21:21,979 --> 00:21:24,389 Speaker 1: Well, likely these islands will remain in focus in the 428 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,849 Speaker 1: years to come, whether it be for climate or geopolitical reasons. 429 00:21:27,859 --> 00:21:30,239 Speaker 1: Thanks so much, Jeremy. You know, I've often joked about 430 00:21:30,250 --> 00:21:33,199 Speaker 1: how you're such a world traveler and someday I really 431 00:21:33,209 --> 00:21:35,449 Speaker 1: want to dedicate a podcast to your travels and I'm 432 00:21:35,459 --> 00:21:37,989 Speaker 1: so glad we got to do this, especially with your insights. 433 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: Thanks Jeremy. 434 00:21:39,959 --> 00:21:42,810 Speaker 1: The TV version of CN A correspondent airs on CNN 435 00:21:42,819 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: every Wednesday at 9:30 p.m. Catch up with them any 436 00:21:45,930 --> 00:21:49,010 Speaker 1: time on CN A dot Asia. The team behind this 437 00:21:49,020 --> 00:21:53,489 Speaker 1: episode is Clara Ong Christina Robert and me, Theresa Tang 438 00:21:53,619 --> 00:21:54,609 Speaker 1: until next time.