1 00:00:00,009 --> 00:00:03,019 Speaker 1: Hi guys. It's Stephen here. We're on a short season 2 00:00:03,029 --> 00:00:05,689 Speaker 1: break now. But over the next few weeks, we plan 3 00:00:05,699 --> 00:00:09,390 Speaker 1: to release some of our most downloaded episodes. This week 4 00:00:09,398 --> 00:00:11,810 Speaker 1: is the one where we discuss an area of serious 5 00:00:11,819 --> 00:00:16,469 Speaker 1: concern for the authorities. How young people become radicalized. Earlier 6 00:00:16,479 --> 00:00:19,099 Speaker 1: this year, we've seen news reports of self radicalized 7 00:00:19,229 --> 00:00:22,389 Speaker 1: young people in Singapore who were issued orders under the 8 00:00:22,399 --> 00:00:26,409 Speaker 1: Internal Security Act for terrorism related activities and they were 9 00:00:26,420 --> 00:00:30,010 Speaker 1: only 15 or 16 years old. My chat with experts 10 00:00:30,020 --> 00:00:34,229 Speaker 1: unpacked some reasons why young people become interested in extremist 11 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:39,450 Speaker 1: religious content and whether rehabilitation can help them. You're listening 12 00:00:39,459 --> 00:00:40,888 Speaker 1: to AC N A podcast. 13 00:00:43,810 --> 00:00:46,668 Speaker 1: Hello again, I'm Steven Chia and welcome back to another 14 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,630 Speaker 1: episode of Heart of the Matter. Now, terrorism is a 15 00:00:49,639 --> 00:00:52,610 Speaker 1: word that is no longer foreign to us. But when 16 00:00:52,619 --> 00:00:55,439 Speaker 1: I heard it associated with someone who is just 15 17 00:00:55,450 --> 00:00:58,229 Speaker 1: years old now that made my hair stand. 18 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: In recent months, two self radicalized Singapore youth were issued 19 00:01:01,889 --> 00:01:05,330 Speaker 1: an order of detention and restriction order under the Internal 20 00:01:05,339 --> 00:01:09,650 Speaker 1: Security Act or ISA they were only 15 and 16 21 00:01:09,660 --> 00:01:13,500 Speaker 1: years old since 2015, Singapore's Ministry of home affairs have 22 00:01:13,510 --> 00:01:15,750 Speaker 1: dealt with nine radicalized youth 23 00:01:16,175 --> 00:01:19,414 Speaker 1: and for most of us that is nine too many. 24 00:01:19,694 --> 00:01:22,794 Speaker 1: So why are Children as young as 14 becoming interested 25 00:01:22,805 --> 00:01:26,434 Speaker 1: in extremist religious content? How are they getting exposed to 26 00:01:26,444 --> 00:01:28,885 Speaker 1: it and how much is due to the gaming environments 27 00:01:28,894 --> 00:01:33,595 Speaker 1: they are in, does rehab work? How can we help them? 28 00:01:36,889 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 1: Joining me for today's discussion are Doctor Mohammed Bin Ali, 29 00:01:40,809 --> 00:01:45,510 Speaker 1: vice chairman and counselor with the religious rehabilitation group. Hi, everyone. 30 00:01:45,519 --> 00:01:49,349 Speaker 1: Doctor Omar Ali Sin head military studies minor at the 31 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:53,870 Speaker 1: Singapore University of Social Sciences. Mr Nicholas Ko co-founder and 32 00:01:53,879 --> 00:01:58,349 Speaker 1: former chairman of Singapore Cyber Sports and online Gaming Association. Hi, everyone. 33 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:00,019 Speaker 1: It's great to be here. All right guys, thanks for 34 00:02:00,029 --> 00:02:00,589 Speaker 1: coming on. 35 00:02:00,849 --> 00:02:02,669 Speaker 1: Doctor Omar. Let me start with you. I want to 36 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:05,709 Speaker 1: ask you because you've done research on this, help us 37 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: unpack and understand this phenomenon where someone is radicalized. 38 00:02:10,380 --> 00:02:12,940 Speaker 2: Ok, let's take a look at the word radical and 39 00:02:12,949 --> 00:02:16,549 Speaker 2: let's steer clear of all the academic jargon behind it. 40 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:19,448 Speaker 2: When we talk about someone who is a radical in 41 00:02:19,460 --> 00:02:23,350 Speaker 2: common literature and how it's been used over the decades, 42 00:02:23,419 --> 00:02:26,940 Speaker 2: it comes from the Latin root word radic. The radics 43 00:02:27,008 --> 00:02:29,139 Speaker 2: basically is the root of certain issues. 44 00:02:29,449 --> 00:02:32,978 Speaker 2: So for example, if you're a radical, you're basically straying 45 00:02:32,990 --> 00:02:38,089 Speaker 2: away from the mainstream, you're straying away from the center 46 00:02:38,100 --> 00:02:41,630 Speaker 2: of things. So that's what it basically means. But then again, look, 47 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,799 Speaker 2: you have radical musicians, you have radical poets and so 48 00:02:45,809 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 2: on and so forth. The term by itself is not problematic. 49 00:02:49,309 --> 00:02:54,990 Speaker 2: What we are talking about is radicalization into violent extremism. 50 00:02:55,449 --> 00:03:00,149 Speaker 2: Now, that's where everything changes here. We're talking about radicalization 51 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:05,829 Speaker 2: as a process that moves you towards accepting ideologies that 52 00:03:05,839 --> 00:03:09,630 Speaker 2: promote violent extremism. So what is the key feature of 53 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,660 Speaker 2: these political ideologies? Number one, you got to have an enemy, 54 00:03:12,669 --> 00:03:15,110 Speaker 2: you got to have someone that you demonize and vilify 55 00:03:15,119 --> 00:03:19,070 Speaker 2: as a source of all societal problems, your problems, everything. 56 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:23,070 Speaker 2: That's the central feature here. You got to vilify someone. Secondly, 57 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:24,948 Speaker 2: they advocate violence as a solution 58 00:03:25,288 --> 00:03:27,389 Speaker 2: and that's where the line is drawn. OK. 59 00:03:27,399 --> 00:03:30,029 Speaker 1: So those two key aspects really make a difference to it. 60 00:03:30,210 --> 00:03:32,190 Speaker 1: Dr Ali, there are a lot of common myths that 61 00:03:32,199 --> 00:03:35,250 Speaker 1: we have about radicalization share with us. Some of those 62 00:03:35,270 --> 00:03:39,639 Speaker 1: people usually think that only the young people can be radicalized. Actually, 63 00:03:39,649 --> 00:03:42,559 Speaker 1: those who have been involved in acts of terrorism. If 64 00:03:42,570 --> 00:03:45,619 Speaker 1: you look at the profile, for example, in Singapore, the 65 00:03:45,630 --> 00:03:51,070 Speaker 1: profile of the g detainees, right to those self radicalized online. 66 00:03:51,110 --> 00:03:53,729 Speaker 1: Until today, those influenced by ISIS narrative, 67 00:03:53,910 --> 00:03:57,529 Speaker 1: we find that there is no single profile of radicalization. 68 00:03:57,539 --> 00:04:02,270 Speaker 1: Anybody can be radicalized regardless of their age, gender, political 69 00:04:02,279 --> 00:04:06,259 Speaker 1: aspiration in terms of their work background, right? Most importantly, 70 00:04:06,270 --> 00:04:10,089 Speaker 1: I think is people from any religious background and tradition 71 00:04:10,100 --> 00:04:12,770 Speaker 1: can be radicalized. It's interesting you mentioned that because very 72 00:04:12,779 --> 00:04:15,820 Speaker 1: often we link it to Muslims, but I recall we've 73 00:04:15,830 --> 00:04:17,529 Speaker 1: also seen a 16 year old Christian boy 74 00:04:17,630 --> 00:04:20,808 Speaker 1: who was detained back in 2021 he wanted to attack 75 00:04:20,820 --> 00:04:24,820 Speaker 1: some moss, right? It really has no boundaries in terms 76 00:04:24,829 --> 00:04:28,420 Speaker 1: of who and where and what their background is. Right. Exactly. 77 00:04:28,428 --> 00:04:31,850 Speaker 1: That's a clear evidence that anybody can radicalize the process 78 00:04:31,859 --> 00:04:37,769 Speaker 1: of someone being introduced into this ideological or political message 79 00:04:37,980 --> 00:04:40,380 Speaker 1: and the religion is just a tool being used by 80 00:04:40,390 --> 00:04:41,250 Speaker 1: all this individual. 81 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:43,779 Speaker 1: Now, all of the things we often hear about those arrested, 82 00:04:43,850 --> 00:04:46,049 Speaker 1: we know who they are, but we often don't get 83 00:04:46,059 --> 00:04:49,118 Speaker 1: news of things like their family background, the schools that 84 00:04:49,130 --> 00:04:51,170 Speaker 1: they went to. I mean, I can see why it's 85 00:04:51,178 --> 00:04:53,859 Speaker 1: not necessary for the general public to know. But in 86 00:04:53,869 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: your work with these young people, how significant is the 87 00:04:56,649 --> 00:05:00,130 Speaker 1: role of family or the larger environment they are in 88 00:05:00,140 --> 00:05:04,970 Speaker 1: family plays a very important role in deterring online radicalization 89 00:05:05,290 --> 00:05:09,829 Speaker 1: because families, they are the first line of defense against radicalization. 90 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:14,130 Speaker 1: You know, for example, if radicalization is suspected the parents 91 00:05:14,140 --> 00:05:17,570 Speaker 1: and even other family members like siblings, they must realize 92 00:05:17,579 --> 00:05:20,529 Speaker 1: that they have to intervene because that is actually helping 93 00:05:20,540 --> 00:05:20,899 Speaker 1: their child. 94 00:05:20,994 --> 00:05:25,454 Speaker 1: If they are not able to advise and give guidance, 95 00:05:25,464 --> 00:05:27,524 Speaker 1: they must have the guts to kind of report the 96 00:05:27,535 --> 00:05:31,414 Speaker 1: case to the authorities. The family institution is key. It 97 00:05:31,424 --> 00:05:35,334 Speaker 1: has always been ignored by the entire ecosystem in fighting 98 00:05:35,345 --> 00:05:36,575 Speaker 1: online radicalization. 99 00:05:36,980 --> 00:05:39,130 Speaker 1: You look at the three cases that we have this 100 00:05:39,140 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: year that none of their family members were actually aware 101 00:05:42,649 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 1: about their children's online activities. And we cannot leave this 102 00:05:46,859 --> 00:05:50,579 Speaker 1: monitoring work to the authorities to do that. Because families, 103 00:05:50,589 --> 00:05:52,679 Speaker 1: they are very close to their loved ones. They play 104 00:05:52,690 --> 00:05:55,558 Speaker 1: a very critical role here to deter on 105 00:05:55,834 --> 00:05:58,644 Speaker 1: radicalization. But that's a big question because much of our 106 00:05:58,654 --> 00:06:01,625 Speaker 1: lives lived online. All the work we do the stuff 107 00:06:01,635 --> 00:06:04,945 Speaker 1: we do at school, our social interaction. So, Nick, maybe 108 00:06:04,954 --> 00:06:07,045 Speaker 1: I get your take on this because our young people 109 00:06:07,053 --> 00:06:10,605 Speaker 1: are living more online than maybe in the real world. 110 00:06:10,613 --> 00:06:13,303 Speaker 1: And we can't keep an eye on them. 24 7, 111 00:06:13,315 --> 00:06:16,804 Speaker 1: we can't be knowing exactly what it is. They're looking 112 00:06:16,815 --> 00:06:17,815 Speaker 1: at all the time. 113 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,459 Speaker 1: What do you think here is a concern? How should 114 00:06:20,470 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: parents respond to what the Doctor Ali has just 115 00:06:23,010 --> 00:06:26,308 Speaker 2: said in these online games? They, they're very diverse and 116 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:29,940 Speaker 2: they have different features and different ways. They, the design, 117 00:06:29,950 --> 00:06:33,510 Speaker 2: they facilitate conversations or relationships. But the end of the, 118 00:06:33,519 --> 00:06:37,500 Speaker 2: the aim is to be interactive and engaging. And actually 119 00:06:37,540 --> 00:06:40,940 Speaker 2: a lot of these conversations are very much within small 120 00:06:40,950 --> 00:06:43,910 Speaker 2: groups and it's very easy to be anonymous. So it's really, 121 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:44,459 Speaker 2: really tough. 122 00:06:44,700 --> 00:06:47,290 Speaker 2: I'm a parent myself and it's really tough to say that, oh, 123 00:06:47,299 --> 00:06:50,109 Speaker 2: I need to be totally aware of how my kids 124 00:06:50,119 --> 00:06:53,869 Speaker 2: are having conversations of who they're meeting in every game 125 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,500 Speaker 2: is it is a really tough responsibility for parents, right? 126 00:06:57,649 --> 00:07:00,558 Speaker 2: It doesn't really help that for the longest time as 127 00:07:00,570 --> 00:07:03,510 Speaker 2: the youth, they spend time in the games, right. Which 128 00:07:03,519 --> 00:07:05,529 Speaker 2: is going to be very, very engaging. They end up 129 00:07:05,540 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 2: spending more time than they, they hope to spend 130 00:07:08,700 --> 00:07:11,279 Speaker 2: and then it ends up like, maybe affecting their grade 131 00:07:11,290 --> 00:07:12,820 Speaker 2: or sometimes it's just a great place for them to 132 00:07:12,829 --> 00:07:16,140 Speaker 2: hide away, get away from the mainstream. And then they 133 00:07:16,149 --> 00:07:19,329 Speaker 2: come online, they meet other people who may be kind 134 00:07:19,339 --> 00:07:21,670 Speaker 2: of like feeling the same about life as they might. 135 00:07:22,309 --> 00:07:25,079 Speaker 2: You know, they don't feel the society is treating them 136 00:07:25,089 --> 00:07:27,649 Speaker 2: right and that they're meeting each other. They are like 137 00:07:27,660 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 2: almost like commiserating, right? And they're building relationships, they're bonding. 138 00:07:31,489 --> 00:07:31,630 Speaker 2: Does 139 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,459 Speaker 1: this online space then become more welcoming to them? Do 140 00:07:34,470 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: they feel more included there? 141 00:07:36,010 --> 00:07:38,980 Speaker 1: They find more of a community there? It could be 142 00:07:38,989 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: a 143 00:07:39,010 --> 00:07:41,970 Speaker 2: more fertile ground as they come together. They do that 144 00:07:41,980 --> 00:07:45,579 Speaker 2: they are meeting like minded fellow youths who feel the 145 00:07:45,589 --> 00:07:48,859 Speaker 2: same way as they do and maybe create a more 146 00:07:48,869 --> 00:07:51,230 Speaker 2: fertile ground for recruitment or radicalization 147 00:07:51,239 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 1: because the 15 year old actually told investigators that he 148 00:07:53,929 --> 00:07:57,579 Speaker 1: stumbled on podcasts by preacher Isam. And within months he 149 00:07:57,589 --> 00:07:59,579 Speaker 1: was deeply radicalized. We also know that there are a 150 00:07:59,589 --> 00:08:02,149 Speaker 1: lot of Nasheet or Isis songs, a sense that are 151 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:03,220 Speaker 1: online on youtube. 152 00:08:03,489 --> 00:08:06,429 Speaker 1: They're very emotive just like many religious songs out there. 153 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:09,829 Speaker 1: So are these kids also not able to discern between 154 00:08:09,839 --> 00:08:11,690 Speaker 1: what they should be looking at what they should not 155 00:08:11,700 --> 00:08:13,649 Speaker 1: be looking at, you don't know. Right. Everything looks ok 156 00:08:13,660 --> 00:08:17,049 Speaker 1: to you. Right. Many of these young people and when 157 00:08:17,059 --> 00:08:19,839 Speaker 1: they are on the verge of radicalization, they were looking 158 00:08:19,850 --> 00:08:21,950 Speaker 1: for some kind of religious identity. 159 00:08:22,429 --> 00:08:25,190 Speaker 1: In many cases, they want to learn about Islam. But 160 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:27,359 Speaker 1: the problem is they do not want to go to 161 00:08:27,369 --> 00:08:31,570 Speaker 1: the mosque, even learn Islam from accredited religious teachers because 162 00:08:31,579 --> 00:08:33,770 Speaker 1: to them this is kind of waste time, everything that 163 00:08:33,780 --> 00:08:36,369 Speaker 1: the religious teachers taught in class, they can get it 164 00:08:36,380 --> 00:08:39,329 Speaker 1: better online, right? So this is where the danger lies 165 00:08:39,340 --> 00:08:42,010 Speaker 1: when you know religious knowledge. For example, I mean, like 166 00:08:42,020 --> 00:08:45,630 Speaker 1: those cases, you heard these young people, young boys listening 167 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:49,580 Speaker 1: to Mufti men and foreign preachers like Zak and others 168 00:08:50,030 --> 00:08:53,239 Speaker 1: because they are understanding and teaching of Islam does not 169 00:08:53,250 --> 00:08:56,669 Speaker 1: suit the context of Singapore. This reality is not known 170 00:08:56,679 --> 00:08:59,210 Speaker 1: by many young Muslims here. And are these young ones 171 00:08:59,219 --> 00:09:02,109 Speaker 1: a bit naive also? So they hear this preacher, he's 172 00:09:02,119 --> 00:09:05,589 Speaker 1: so charismatic. He so he makes it so engaging. You're like, wow, 173 00:09:05,599 --> 00:09:08,929 Speaker 1: that sounds so good. Right. Exactly. So they get caught 174 00:09:08,940 --> 00:09:10,919 Speaker 1: up in it. Yeah, I just 175 00:09:10,929 --> 00:09:11,229 Speaker 2: want to 176 00:09:11,349 --> 00:09:14,799 Speaker 2: put some other perspectives here at this point. Firstly, in 177 00:09:14,809 --> 00:09:17,500 Speaker 2: the online space, there are all kinds of extremism and 178 00:09:17,510 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 2: we just mentioned there's a far right. There's even a 179 00:09:19,969 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: lot of misogynist ideas out there. You've heard about the 180 00:09:23,409 --> 00:09:26,690 Speaker 2: Incel subculture, there's this new stuff going around called Gore 181 00:09:26,700 --> 00:09:29,609 Speaker 2: posting and schizo posting and so on and so forth. 182 00:09:29,809 --> 00:09:32,599 Speaker 2: There are a lot of harmful ideologies 183 00:09:32,750 --> 00:09:37,130 Speaker 2: out there, political, religious or otherwise, there's no filter on this. 184 00:09:37,219 --> 00:09:39,609 Speaker 2: When someone who is young and not able to discern 185 00:09:39,619 --> 00:09:42,390 Speaker 2: is going online, you basically have a good buffet spread 186 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,030 Speaker 2: of stuff that you can explore. There are no limits 187 00:09:45,039 --> 00:09:47,049 Speaker 2: to what they can explore. But one of the main 188 00:09:47,059 --> 00:09:49,189 Speaker 2: things we need to understand is this whole idea of 189 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,489 Speaker 2: community finding your identity. But we got to remember another thing, 190 00:09:52,500 --> 00:09:55,569 Speaker 2: this thing about al families when they lose touch with 191 00:09:55,580 --> 00:09:56,289 Speaker 2: the real world, 192 00:09:56,619 --> 00:09:59,239 Speaker 2: when they can't really connect with basically people in the 193 00:09:59,250 --> 00:10:02,179 Speaker 2: real world with their own families and our communities in 194 00:10:02,190 --> 00:10:04,919 Speaker 2: the real world, they find an alternate family, 195 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:09,260 Speaker 2: an alternate group of people who see them understand their world. 196 00:10:09,570 --> 00:10:12,699 Speaker 2: It's kind of like the movie Avatar I see. But 197 00:10:12,710 --> 00:10:15,359 Speaker 1: Nicholas, most parents are a bit concerned about the games 198 00:10:15,369 --> 00:10:18,710 Speaker 1: because we've heard of Roblox. And now there's this platform Discord, 199 00:10:18,750 --> 00:10:20,900 Speaker 1: which essentially is a chat room for young people, right? 200 00:10:21,059 --> 00:10:21,218 Speaker 1: And 201 00:10:21,304 --> 00:10:23,405 Speaker 1: my son uses it to to chat with friends. So 202 00:10:23,414 --> 00:10:27,593 Speaker 1: how have these platforms become such a powerful tool for radicalization? 203 00:10:27,734 --> 00:10:28,195 Speaker 1: First of 204 00:10:28,205 --> 00:10:31,304 Speaker 2: all, as Doctor Omar has mentioned this, it's all sorts 205 00:10:31,315 --> 00:10:34,344 Speaker 2: of extremism. He may not just be religious for a 206 00:10:34,354 --> 00:10:36,965 Speaker 2: lot of these young people. They go online, 207 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:38,979 Speaker 2: they are the additional natives, right? So they tend to 208 00:10:38,989 --> 00:10:43,460 Speaker 2: have a stronger affinity towards technology like men this call 209 00:10:43,469 --> 00:10:45,409 Speaker 2: sometimes when I talk to these young people, if I'm 210 00:10:45,419 --> 00:10:47,090 Speaker 2: not on this call, I'm not cool. Right. I should 211 00:10:47,099 --> 00:10:50,699 Speaker 2: be talking to them on, on this court. At the 212 00:10:50,710 --> 00:10:53,260 Speaker 2: same time, if you think about it, we are encouraging 213 00:10:53,349 --> 00:10:57,030 Speaker 2: them towards technology to embrace technology. And then at the 214 00:10:57,039 --> 00:11:00,140 Speaker 2: same time, they are learning about like coding, programming and 215 00:11:00,229 --> 00:11:02,309 Speaker 2: some of them, they come together and they feel some 216 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,339 Speaker 2: of things that happening in the wide society may not 217 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:05,260 Speaker 2: with them and 218 00:11:05,372 --> 00:11:08,552 Speaker 2: and they feel a sense of resentment and they're bonding together. 219 00:11:08,562 --> 00:11:11,523 Speaker 2: It's not just like say about religious extremism, but you 220 00:11:11,533 --> 00:11:14,013 Speaker 2: could be grooming hackers, they could be gearing towards ideologies 221 00:11:14,023 --> 00:11:17,213 Speaker 2: like anonymous to your point about the parents concern that 222 00:11:17,223 --> 00:11:21,392 Speaker 2: platforms like this called games like Minecraft and Roadblocks, right? 223 00:11:21,602 --> 00:11:25,103 Speaker 2: Like promotes this push for them to embrace this technology, 224 00:11:25,112 --> 00:11:27,913 Speaker 2: to learn more about how to use technology, right? And 225 00:11:27,922 --> 00:11:29,311 Speaker 2: without proper guidance is tough. 226 00:11:29,322 --> 00:11:31,502 Speaker 1: But Nicholas, I mean to be fair, technology has a 227 00:11:31,513 --> 00:11:33,463 Speaker 1: lot of good. They do learn a 228 00:11:33,655 --> 00:11:35,705 Speaker 1: from a lot of these platforms, but I pick up 229 00:11:35,716 --> 00:11:38,685 Speaker 1: on two words, you mentioned fester and breeding ground. So 230 00:11:38,695 --> 00:11:41,445 Speaker 1: it almost is like a seed, you build it and 231 00:11:41,455 --> 00:11:43,296 Speaker 1: then you start letting it grow a little bit, but 232 00:11:43,306 --> 00:11:46,205 Speaker 1: it's just that it happens online and unsupervised because one 233 00:11:46,216 --> 00:11:49,215 Speaker 1: of the teens mentioned how he had joined multiple ISIS 234 00:11:49,226 --> 00:11:53,265 Speaker 1: the service that basically replicated conflict in the real world. 235 00:11:53,276 --> 00:11:55,135 Speaker 1: And he was playing a game as if he was 236 00:11:55,145 --> 00:11:58,026 Speaker 1: an ISIS member shooting other people. You know, so it 237 00:11:58,035 --> 00:12:00,655 Speaker 1: was a simulation that we use now to train some 238 00:12:00,666 --> 00:12:01,645 Speaker 1: of our real soldiers. 239 00:12:01,919 --> 00:12:04,539 Speaker 1: This sounds really scary. Are we equipped to deal with 240 00:12:04,549 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: these methods that these organizations are using, Steve? I 241 00:12:07,890 --> 00:12:10,489 Speaker 2: just want to add what research on this basically shows 242 00:12:10,500 --> 00:12:12,830 Speaker 2: at the moment you see there are many types of 243 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:13,900 Speaker 2: gamers out there. 244 00:12:14,219 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 2: We got to understand they're not all the same the 245 00:12:16,409 --> 00:12:20,169 Speaker 2: category that you are talking about. For example, isis Far 246 00:12:20,179 --> 00:12:23,239 Speaker 2: right groups, a lot of them have produced their own 247 00:12:23,250 --> 00:12:26,238 Speaker 2: first person shooter game and stuff out there that basically 248 00:12:26,340 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 2: pulls people who are already radicalized. I repeat, they are 249 00:12:30,090 --> 00:12:33,339 Speaker 2: already radicalized into this ecosystem. So it's just an echo 250 00:12:33,349 --> 00:12:35,840 Speaker 2: chamber of like minded people who are just playing it 251 00:12:35,849 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 2: out within that beautiful fantasy that they've all 252 00:12:38,375 --> 00:12:42,406 Speaker 2: created. But there is another archetype. Now, this is basically 253 00:12:42,416 --> 00:12:44,435 Speaker 2: an open ground in which they are looking out for 254 00:12:44,445 --> 00:12:46,976 Speaker 2: potential recruits. And the thing is that whether it's neo 255 00:12:47,116 --> 00:12:50,616 Speaker 2: nazi symbolism, jihadi symbolism, some of them suddenly sort of 256 00:12:50,625 --> 00:12:54,556 Speaker 2: bring that into the communication that happens within these online 257 00:12:54,565 --> 00:12:56,815 Speaker 2: gaming platforms, what I'm trying to say and this is 258 00:12:56,825 --> 00:13:00,476 Speaker 2: an important point. We don't know enough about digital natives 259 00:13:00,486 --> 00:13:02,395 Speaker 2: and their subculture, which is changing 260 00:13:02,530 --> 00:13:05,780 Speaker 2: rapidly, hate speech and stuff is normalized. I was just 261 00:13:05,791 --> 00:13:08,312 Speaker 2: speaking to a gamer and they were saying that for example, 262 00:13:08,322 --> 00:13:10,401 Speaker 2: like FIFA, they're playing a game and one of the 263 00:13:10,410 --> 00:13:13,511 Speaker 2: members does badly in that game and suddenly everybody sort 264 00:13:13,521 --> 00:13:16,262 Speaker 2: of gangs up and they start hating this person and very, 265 00:13:16,271 --> 00:13:20,752 Speaker 2: very fast that speech becomes hate speech. It's the norm. 266 00:13:21,030 --> 00:13:23,330 Speaker 2: There are even groups like Gamer Gate that try to 267 00:13:23,341 --> 00:13:25,481 Speaker 2: keep women out of it and they are very misogynist 268 00:13:25,492 --> 00:13:26,552 Speaker 2: and so on and so forth. 269 00:13:26,919 --> 00:13:30,299 Speaker 2: You see all that happening. It's an environment in which 270 00:13:30,599 --> 00:13:33,619 Speaker 2: this can propagate. But having said that there's a lot 271 00:13:33,630 --> 00:13:36,969 Speaker 2: of good that's happening in terms of cultivating things like 272 00:13:36,979 --> 00:13:40,059 Speaker 2: good sportsmanship in e-sports and so on and so forth. 273 00:13:40,369 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 2: Most people can find their way. But the thing is 274 00:13:42,849 --> 00:13:45,619 Speaker 2: that you have a wide open space 275 00:13:46,090 --> 00:13:48,598 Speaker 2: in which all kinds of people commit, those who are 276 00:13:48,609 --> 00:13:51,108 Speaker 2: well adjusted and those who are not. And 277 00:13:51,119 --> 00:13:55,150 Speaker 1: if it's not properly regulated, then it allows these young 278 00:13:55,159 --> 00:13:59,159 Speaker 1: people to be influenced by others who may be wanting 279 00:13:59,169 --> 00:14:02,140 Speaker 1: to really lead them astray related to this thief. Is 280 00:14:02,150 --> 00:14:04,468 Speaker 1: that many of us, including our young people, 281 00:14:04,890 --> 00:14:10,460 Speaker 1: they are increasingly exposed to overseas developments, including global conflicts. 282 00:14:10,590 --> 00:14:14,358 Speaker 1: And that impacts sense of justice and spark outreach. As 283 00:14:14,369 --> 00:14:18,020 Speaker 1: a result of youth being the most ill equipped section 284 00:14:18,030 --> 00:14:22,539 Speaker 1: of our community to manage their emotions rationally, these young 285 00:14:22,549 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: people are stumbling into inappropriate responses. Right. Right, in terms 286 00:14:26,969 --> 00:14:28,309 Speaker 1: of channeling their anger, 287 00:14:28,409 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: their resentment, and even their feeling of unhappiness. So this 288 00:14:31,770 --> 00:14:33,429 Speaker 1: is where I think we need to come, it's not 289 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:37,380 Speaker 1: always about religion, but they also have this sense of unhappiness, 290 00:14:37,390 --> 00:14:39,929 Speaker 1: grievances that we also need to look at. We think 291 00:14:39,940 --> 00:14:42,909 Speaker 1: about it also, 1516 year old, you're kind of just 292 00:14:42,919 --> 00:14:46,630 Speaker 1: growing up, you're still figuring life out, figuring out what 293 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:48,950 Speaker 1: to do, what not to do. So you are still 294 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:51,049 Speaker 1: learning a lot on your own and then suddenly you 295 00:14:51,059 --> 00:14:54,669 Speaker 1: have this whole buffet thread of things to choose from 296 00:14:54,679 --> 00:14:57,030 Speaker 1: and everything looks so exciting, you know, so it is 297 00:14:57,039 --> 00:14:58,219 Speaker 1: hard for them too. 298 00:14:58,630 --> 00:15:00,890 Speaker 1: How do we save our youth because we want to 299 00:15:00,900 --> 00:15:03,669 Speaker 1: get them before they get into this state, right? I 300 00:15:03,679 --> 00:15:07,190 Speaker 1: would like to give another perspective. Today, we always mentioned 301 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,289 Speaker 1: that youth radicalization is the problem that young people, but 302 00:15:11,299 --> 00:15:15,049 Speaker 1: it's actually a reflection of the problems of our own society. 303 00:15:15,059 --> 00:15:18,380 Speaker 1: We have to also understand that how the entire gaming 304 00:15:18,390 --> 00:15:21,380 Speaker 1: and social media platform works as we know that there 305 00:15:21,390 --> 00:15:25,090 Speaker 1: are incentives for the creators of this gaming and social 306 00:15:25,099 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: media platform to find ways to keep 307 00:15:27,590 --> 00:15:31,690 Speaker 1: the users online. So for this purpose, it makes sense 308 00:15:31,700 --> 00:15:35,619 Speaker 1: for the software designers to look into the things that 309 00:15:35,630 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: kind of will keep their users looking at the screen. 310 00:15:38,650 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: So for example, a young boy is watching a factual 311 00:15:41,210 --> 00:15:42,169 Speaker 1: video 911 312 00:15:42,770 --> 00:15:46,229 Speaker 1: and then the platform will then recommend more videos that 313 00:15:46,239 --> 00:15:50,049 Speaker 1: got them selecting each one, more extreme and outrageous. The 314 00:15:50,059 --> 00:15:53,450 Speaker 1: algorithms will do that exactly to the several factors that 315 00:15:53,460 --> 00:15:56,159 Speaker 1: we need to look into it. Not one dimension only 316 00:15:56,169 --> 00:15:57,710 Speaker 1: to this problem. 317 00:16:02,869 --> 00:16:05,429 Speaker 1: Are you looking for ways to make your money work 318 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:09,429 Speaker 1: harder for you or need tips on saving investing and 319 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:13,609 Speaker 1: making financial decisions? Join me Andrea Heng on Money talks. 320 00:16:13,619 --> 00:16:18,549 Speaker 1: CN A's top personal finance podcast from investment basics to 321 00:16:18,559 --> 00:16:19,669 Speaker 1: the fire movement 322 00:16:19,744 --> 00:16:23,284 Speaker 1: and legacy planning. Money talks looks at financial trends and 323 00:16:23,294 --> 00:16:27,344 Speaker 1: stories that matter to you. Check out our complete playlist 324 00:16:27,354 --> 00:16:31,515 Speaker 1: on the CNE app, Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you 325 00:16:31,525 --> 00:16:35,604 Speaker 1: get your podcasts, follow us or subscribe for new episodes 326 00:16:35,614 --> 00:16:36,565 Speaker 1: every Tuesday. 327 00:16:41,349 --> 00:16:43,419 Speaker 1: So it sounds like in a lot of these platforms 328 00:16:43,429 --> 00:16:46,799 Speaker 1: and these games, there's a lack of content moderation. Nicholas 329 00:16:46,809 --> 00:16:51,030 Speaker 1: are these platforms actually less regulated. Should there be more 330 00:16:51,039 --> 00:16:52,010 Speaker 1: sort of moderation? 331 00:16:52,270 --> 00:16:55,039 Speaker 2: We can all agree that because game companies that create 332 00:16:55,049 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 2: these games and these games become a platform for this 333 00:16:58,770 --> 00:17:03,330 Speaker 2: conversations and relationships and potential grounds for radicalization that the 334 00:17:03,340 --> 00:17:06,890 Speaker 2: game publishers should do more. But the reality is that 335 00:17:06,900 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 2: they come in all sorts of ships and sizes, thousands 336 00:17:09,569 --> 00:17:10,390 Speaker 2: of games are being lost 337 00:17:10,604 --> 00:17:14,604 Speaker 2: every month. They are all very in how they design 338 00:17:14,614 --> 00:17:17,354 Speaker 2: terms of the game play. And obviously some of them 339 00:17:17,364 --> 00:17:20,305 Speaker 2: have more resources than the others to your point about regulation. 340 00:17:20,314 --> 00:17:22,964 Speaker 2: Right now, there's little to no incentive for them to 341 00:17:22,974 --> 00:17:25,305 Speaker 2: do any form of moderation. They are incentivized by having 342 00:17:25,314 --> 00:17:27,905 Speaker 2: more people play the game, more people coming to enjoy. 343 00:17:27,915 --> 00:17:30,444 Speaker 2: So for those who are maybe more matured in how 344 00:17:30,454 --> 00:17:33,564 Speaker 2: they think about it. They realize that these conversations are unhealthy. 345 00:17:33,574 --> 00:17:34,504 Speaker 2: It would affect 346 00:17:34,810 --> 00:17:36,459 Speaker 2: the experience of the game and they will be put 347 00:17:36,469 --> 00:17:40,020 Speaker 2: some resources to moderate the experience. But otherwise there might 348 00:17:40,030 --> 00:17:41,929 Speaker 2: be a need for regulation or a stick. 349 00:17:41,969 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: But at the same time, you're saying there's really no 350 00:17:43,569 --> 00:17:46,250 Speaker 1: incentive from them because it limits the number of people 351 00:17:46,260 --> 00:17:48,419 Speaker 1: they have. It means a kid may come in and say, 352 00:17:48,430 --> 00:17:50,589 Speaker 1: oh no fun. You know, everything is censored. 353 00:17:50,859 --> 00:17:53,669 Speaker 1: There is some government regulation, certain content and sites are 354 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,050 Speaker 1: blocked out but it will never be fool proof. So 355 00:17:56,060 --> 00:17:59,109 Speaker 1: are we looking at more stricter policing overall? What do 356 00:17:59,119 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: you think there are 357 00:17:59,810 --> 00:18:03,839 Speaker 2: many global associations that actually are looking into this at 358 00:18:03,849 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 2: the moment and even within the major 359 00:18:06,305 --> 00:18:09,545 Speaker 2: gaming platforms? For example, if you look at the global 360 00:18:09,555 --> 00:18:13,474 Speaker 2: internet forum for countering terrorism, Discord is already a member 361 00:18:13,484 --> 00:18:16,415 Speaker 2: of GIF CD. But the thing is that there are 362 00:18:16,425 --> 00:18:19,844 Speaker 2: so many new games being uploaded so often there are 363 00:18:19,854 --> 00:18:21,405 Speaker 2: many smaller players out there. 364 00:18:21,709 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 2: How are you going to regulate all of them? Even 365 00:18:24,130 --> 00:18:27,688 Speaker 2: if they want to be regulated and to prevent bad 366 00:18:27,699 --> 00:18:31,569 Speaker 2: actors using the platforms, they may not have the capacity 367 00:18:31,579 --> 00:18:34,369 Speaker 2: to regulate their smaller platforms. So this is the big 368 00:18:34,380 --> 00:18:36,968 Speaker 2: challenge that we are facing. And sometimes one of the 369 00:18:36,979 --> 00:18:40,229 Speaker 2: main things that we need to do is educate the 370 00:18:40,239 --> 00:18:41,649 Speaker 2: whole community per se. 371 00:18:41,724 --> 00:18:45,584 Speaker 2: You need good ambassadors within gamers. That is the only 372 00:18:45,594 --> 00:18:49,045 Speaker 2: way we can go about this gamers policing gamers. It's 373 00:18:49,055 --> 00:18:52,305 Speaker 2: not just law enforcement. Can you imagine that a community 374 00:18:52,314 --> 00:18:54,935 Speaker 2: of gamers who are out there to ensure that they 375 00:18:54,944 --> 00:18:56,794 Speaker 2: can keep the good things about their sport 376 00:18:56,805 --> 00:18:59,454 Speaker 1: alive? So, ok, I hear what you're saying. So in 377 00:18:59,464 --> 00:19:01,655 Speaker 1: a way we're saying regulation policing 378 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,609 Speaker 1: can only do so much, but we must look at 379 00:19:04,619 --> 00:19:06,250 Speaker 1: how we can look out for each other. And I 380 00:19:06,260 --> 00:19:08,900 Speaker 1: guess as you mentioned within the gaming community, I play 381 00:19:08,910 --> 00:19:12,170 Speaker 1: this game called Ultimate Frisbee where we are self ruled 382 00:19:12,180 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: in the sense that we self referee the game. Every 383 00:19:14,569 --> 00:19:17,060 Speaker 1: player is a referee in that sense. And there's a 384 00:19:17,069 --> 00:19:20,500 Speaker 1: certain integrity that comes from that you can this exist 385 00:19:20,510 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: online in such a platform. Do you think the kids, 386 00:19:23,229 --> 00:19:25,198 Speaker 1: they're quite young as well? Are they mature enough to 387 00:19:25,209 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: take on such a 388 00:19:25,770 --> 00:19:27,300 Speaker 2: role? I'm gonna need to depend 389 00:19:27,380 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 2: Nicholas or this one because you have all kinds of 390 00:19:29,890 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 2: youth profiles coming in Nicholas. What do you think based 391 00:19:32,449 --> 00:19:34,170 Speaker 2: on the youth that you've seen in the gaming industry? 392 00:19:34,329 --> 00:19:37,319 Speaker 2: I definitely agree in the direction that the doctor has 393 00:19:37,329 --> 00:19:40,229 Speaker 2: suggested and recommended, right? You should take the part that 394 00:19:40,239 --> 00:19:43,300 Speaker 2: made me pause this kind of remembering that some of 395 00:19:43,310 --> 00:19:46,089 Speaker 2: these games, for example, like minecraft, the profile, the gamers 396 00:19:46,099 --> 00:19:49,339 Speaker 2: are like really, really young and some of them don't 397 00:19:49,349 --> 00:19:52,250 Speaker 2: even know how to brush the teeth before they sleep. Right. 398 00:19:54,819 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 2: My own kids. Right. Just, and to kind of like 399 00:19:58,010 --> 00:20:00,180 Speaker 2: to educate them to say that they have to self 400 00:20:00,189 --> 00:20:02,530 Speaker 2: regulate in a sense. It depends. I think it will 401 00:20:02,540 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 2: work better for some games or some platforms more than 402 00:20:05,010 --> 00:20:05,469 Speaker 2: others 403 00:20:05,479 --> 00:20:08,389 Speaker 1: for every new game that exists. Perhaps if there was 404 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,630 Speaker 1: a regulation to say that you must have a moderator 405 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,859 Speaker 1: who is at least 15 years old who has taken 406 00:20:15,869 --> 00:20:18,579 Speaker 1: a certificate in, I don't know, I mean, 407 00:20:18,979 --> 00:20:22,119 Speaker 1: it sounds pretty far fetched, but basically we're teaching the 408 00:20:22,130 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: kids how to be more responsible with what they're doing online. 409 00:20:25,819 --> 00:20:28,260 Speaker 2: It's not so far fetched. It's just that the existing 410 00:20:28,270 --> 00:20:32,619 Speaker 2: countries like China and more in a sense, the kind 411 00:20:32,630 --> 00:20:35,409 Speaker 2: of tougher regulation in China, all the games have to 412 00:20:35,420 --> 00:20:37,859 Speaker 2: have a publishing license and then you cannot play more 413 00:20:37,869 --> 00:20:40,739 Speaker 2: than two hours when you speak to regulators in other 414 00:20:40,750 --> 00:20:42,930 Speaker 2: jurisdictions section. You do the same. They are like, oh, 415 00:20:42,939 --> 00:20:45,079 Speaker 2: but you know, there are thousands of games being launched 416 00:20:45,089 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 2: every week and as 417 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,290 Speaker 2: the regulator in order to regulate the game, you actually 418 00:20:48,300 --> 00:20:50,670 Speaker 2: have to play all the games and that takes a 419 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,379 Speaker 2: lot of resources. That's the challenge, right? We have to 420 00:20:53,390 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 2: stop chasing the platforms because today it's roadblocks, tomorrow, it's 421 00:20:57,770 --> 00:21:01,089 Speaker 2: something else. And tomorrow we'll start talking about the metaverse 422 00:21:01,270 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 2: and then we'll talk about something else again. So it's 423 00:21:03,689 --> 00:21:06,310 Speaker 2: a more holistic approach that we need to take at 424 00:21:06,319 --> 00:21:10,319 Speaker 2: this point with regards to the communities, youth, their relationship 425 00:21:10,329 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 2: with their families, that's going to be the best defense 426 00:21:12,650 --> 00:21:13,180 Speaker 2: we're going to have. 427 00:21:13,469 --> 00:21:16,910 Speaker 1: It's a whole of society approach. What Omar mentioned, my 428 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,129 Speaker 1: take on this is that regulation is a monumental task. 429 00:21:20,180 --> 00:21:23,448 Speaker 1: What we need to do right now is to prioritize 430 00:21:23,459 --> 00:21:28,209 Speaker 1: programs that educate internet users to deal with internet content. 431 00:21:28,479 --> 00:21:31,959 Speaker 1: You know, family members, they need to be informed about 432 00:21:31,969 --> 00:21:35,930 Speaker 1: the indicators and tell clear signs of radicalization. The parents 433 00:21:35,939 --> 00:21:36,199 Speaker 1: in the 434 00:21:36,385 --> 00:21:38,964 Speaker 1: three cases, they did not know that their Children are 435 00:21:38,974 --> 00:21:43,035 Speaker 1: on the verge of radicalization and have been radicalized unless 436 00:21:43,045 --> 00:21:45,834 Speaker 1: they are aware about the indicators, tell tale signs, then 437 00:21:45,844 --> 00:21:48,284 Speaker 1: they can intervene at the early stage. So that brings 438 00:21:48,295 --> 00:21:50,754 Speaker 1: us to that point, you know, how do we look 439 00:21:50,765 --> 00:21:53,055 Speaker 1: out for the signs? What are the red flags that 440 00:21:53,064 --> 00:21:55,155 Speaker 1: we need to be aware of? Because in this case, 441 00:21:55,165 --> 00:21:56,994 Speaker 1: I think one of the kids, some of his friends 442 00:21:57,005 --> 00:21:59,035 Speaker 1: thought he was just a bit weird, you know, 443 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 1: so they kind of just left them alone and to 444 00:22:00,930 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: be fair in every school, there will always be a 445 00:22:03,010 --> 00:22:05,819 Speaker 1: few kids who seem a bit weird but they don't 446 00:22:05,829 --> 00:22:09,300 Speaker 1: end up becoming radicalized. So how do you differentiate? So 447 00:22:09,310 --> 00:22:13,290 Speaker 1: some of the important warning signs of radicalization that family 448 00:22:13,300 --> 00:22:17,640 Speaker 1: members should look out, for example, including number one, justifying 449 00:22:17,650 --> 00:22:20,030 Speaker 1: the use of violence to defend the cause and also 450 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:21,859 Speaker 1: expressing intent to take part. 451 00:22:22,005 --> 00:22:25,534 Speaker 1: But in acts of violence locally or overseas. The other 452 00:22:25,545 --> 00:22:32,064 Speaker 1: telltale signs include individuals, idolizing terrorist personalities, expressing support for 453 00:22:32,074 --> 00:22:37,045 Speaker 1: groups like isis frequenting radical websites. Parents can also detect 454 00:22:37,055 --> 00:22:41,244 Speaker 1: the change of behavior in their child's character. So all this, 455 00:22:41,255 --> 00:22:44,645 Speaker 1: I don't think parents they know that they should be aware, 456 00:22:44,930 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 1: not only monitoring the online activities of natural but to 457 00:22:48,650 --> 00:22:52,979 Speaker 1: be informed on these indicators and signs of radicalization. But 458 00:22:52,989 --> 00:22:56,429 Speaker 1: the signs also are not such distinct signs. And you know, 459 00:22:56,439 --> 00:22:57,469 Speaker 1: as kids grow up 460 00:22:57,839 --> 00:23:00,979 Speaker 1: as teenagers, there will be good days, bad days. And 461 00:23:00,989 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 1: for the parents, even if they spot something, then what 462 00:23:03,130 --> 00:23:06,819 Speaker 1: who should they turn to if they discover or they 463 00:23:06,829 --> 00:23:10,819 Speaker 1: found out that their loved ones are on the verge 464 00:23:10,829 --> 00:23:13,619 Speaker 1: of radicalization. And in the early stage, I think they 465 00:23:13,630 --> 00:23:18,109 Speaker 1: need to intervene by first giving advice, advising them and 466 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,938 Speaker 1: stop them if they succeed to do this. I think 467 00:23:20,949 --> 00:23:23,780 Speaker 1: that's fine. But the issue if they are not able 468 00:23:23,790 --> 00:23:26,619 Speaker 1: to do this and these things continue the parents 469 00:23:26,719 --> 00:23:29,780 Speaker 1: to get some help and this could be from religious 470 00:23:29,790 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: leaders and teachers or even if things seems to get worse, 471 00:23:33,890 --> 00:23:37,489 Speaker 1: parents can even call the R and we can come 472 00:23:37,500 --> 00:23:39,698 Speaker 1: in to see how we can help all these individuals. 473 00:23:39,709 --> 00:23:42,939 Speaker 1: Some may be afraid because they're saying if I report, 474 00:23:42,949 --> 00:23:45,359 Speaker 1: then my kid will get arrested, get the team, you know, 475 00:23:45,660 --> 00:23:47,780 Speaker 1: but I'm sure you can tell them that it's better 476 00:23:47,790 --> 00:23:50,949 Speaker 1: to seek help first before reaching that stage, right? We 477 00:23:50,959 --> 00:23:53,949 Speaker 1: can understand that if they are kind of afraid to 478 00:23:53,959 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 1: report to is D 479 00:23:55,689 --> 00:23:58,420 Speaker 1: but they can come to community groups like the RG 480 00:23:58,430 --> 00:24:01,060 Speaker 1: and we can help them. I mean, we drop reporting 481 00:24:01,069 --> 00:24:03,900 Speaker 1: to is D because we believe that these individuals, they 482 00:24:03,910 --> 00:24:06,468 Speaker 1: at the very early stage of a organization and we 483 00:24:06,479 --> 00:24:10,229 Speaker 1: can do something to help them overcome their issues. I 484 00:24:10,239 --> 00:24:13,380 Speaker 1: think it's so important for the community around to be 485 00:24:13,390 --> 00:24:17,180 Speaker 1: aware as well. In fact, actually, it's also mainly boys, right? Nicholas, 486 00:24:17,189 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: maybe you can tell me a bit more about why 487 00:24:19,290 --> 00:24:22,459 Speaker 1: is it simply because more boys play these games? Not 488 00:24:22,469 --> 00:24:24,379 Speaker 2: necessarily, I mean, the 489 00:24:24,479 --> 00:24:28,619 Speaker 2: some games have as many girls as boys, but sometimes 490 00:24:28,630 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 2: talking about identity, right? It seems that boys when they 491 00:24:31,650 --> 00:24:34,500 Speaker 2: are on these online platforms, playing games, they tend to 492 00:24:34,510 --> 00:24:38,060 Speaker 2: feel more powerful or a need to have that digital 493 00:24:38,069 --> 00:24:40,380 Speaker 2: online identity that they are, they are powerful and then 494 00:24:40,390 --> 00:24:43,349 Speaker 2: they they tend to then associate themselves with like, oh 495 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:47,500 Speaker 2: I am so and so fighter hero and perhaps that's 496 00:24:47,510 --> 00:24:49,739 Speaker 2: the part that there's a bit more affinity. I don't 497 00:24:49,750 --> 00:24:53,260 Speaker 2: normally see like the ladies or girls in these games, 498 00:24:54,030 --> 00:24:57,030 Speaker 2: that behavior or having that kind of conversations as the 499 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:57,319 Speaker 2: boys 500 00:24:57,329 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: do? Ok. So what tips will you have out there 501 00:25:00,130 --> 00:25:03,260 Speaker 1: for parents? We all know our kids are on these platforms, 502 00:25:03,270 --> 00:25:05,239 Speaker 1: they are playing these games. How do I keep an 503 00:25:05,250 --> 00:25:07,169 Speaker 1: eye on them? What should I be looking out for 504 00:25:07,339 --> 00:25:10,449 Speaker 2: Steve if I just cite a certain example from one 505 00:25:10,459 --> 00:25:12,739 Speaker 2: of the case studies that was done some time back 506 00:25:12,750 --> 00:25:14,660 Speaker 2: as a news article, if you're not mistaken, it was 507 00:25:14,670 --> 00:25:17,329 Speaker 2: the New York Times that published the story about the 508 00:25:17,339 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 2: lonely young American and ISIS. And what they mentioned was 509 00:25:21,010 --> 00:25:22,099 Speaker 2: that the recruiters, 510 00:25:22,410 --> 00:25:26,109 Speaker 2: they know exactly what these individuals want and that's presence. 511 00:25:26,420 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 2: And I think this is something that parents should take 512 00:25:28,569 --> 00:25:30,900 Speaker 2: note of. But even in their recruitment is not just 513 00:25:30,910 --> 00:25:33,140 Speaker 2: one recruiter, there's a whole group of them so that 514 00:25:33,150 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 2: any time of the day or night, someone is there 515 00:25:35,890 --> 00:25:37,959 Speaker 2: for them. And sometimes one of the things that they 516 00:25:37,969 --> 00:25:40,270 Speaker 2: mention is when you get to know this person, when 517 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,880 Speaker 2: you're grooming them, don't talk about religion first become a friend, 518 00:25:43,890 --> 00:25:46,829 Speaker 2: be a friend, be there for them. One of the 519 00:25:46,839 --> 00:25:48,790 Speaker 2: things that we need to notice is when you are 520 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,439 Speaker 2: starting to isolate and they are basically living in that 521 00:25:52,449 --> 00:25:53,399 Speaker 2: ultimate reality 522 00:25:53,750 --> 00:25:55,919 Speaker 2: and they are basically getting cut off from parents. I'm 523 00:25:55,930 --> 00:25:58,310 Speaker 2: not going to offer parenting advice. But one of the 524 00:25:58,319 --> 00:26:00,170 Speaker 2: things that we may not need to do is that 525 00:26:00,329 --> 00:26:03,010 Speaker 2: be present in some ways with that trust, if you 526 00:26:03,020 --> 00:26:05,869 Speaker 2: can do that in those small incremental ways, that's going 527 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,619 Speaker 2: to open doors for them to perhaps open up when 528 00:26:08,630 --> 00:26:09,729 Speaker 2: they need to. That is 529 00:26:09,739 --> 00:26:13,709 Speaker 1: exactly the strategy for our rehabilitation process that we have 530 00:26:13,719 --> 00:26:16,349 Speaker 1: to make friends with our clients first, not to talk 531 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,060 Speaker 1: about religion and identify what are the issues that needs 532 00:26:19,069 --> 00:26:19,889 Speaker 1: to be dealt with 533 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:24,609 Speaker 1: after building this rapport and cordial relationship with our clients. 534 00:26:24,689 --> 00:26:27,329 Speaker 1: And then we try to attempt to address the real 535 00:26:27,339 --> 00:26:31,530 Speaker 1: concerns or issues that the detainees have. Well, gentlemen, thanks 536 00:26:31,540 --> 00:26:33,300 Speaker 1: so much for your thoughts on this. I mean, it 537 00:26:33,310 --> 00:26:35,290 Speaker 1: really sounds like as you mentioned, I think the key 538 00:26:35,300 --> 00:26:37,969 Speaker 1: to reaching out especially to our own kids is well, 539 00:26:37,979 --> 00:26:41,130 Speaker 1: for one, we gotta remember stop lecturing them like parents, 540 00:26:41,780 --> 00:26:44,579 Speaker 1: we need to establish a relationship where our kids feel 541 00:26:44,589 --> 00:26:46,420 Speaker 1: that they can open up to us, they can 542 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:49,310 Speaker 1: tell us things they can relate to us because as 543 00:26:49,319 --> 00:26:50,718 Speaker 1: a young person who is still in the midst of 544 00:26:50,729 --> 00:26:52,709 Speaker 1: learning about life, I mean, it's hard for them to 545 00:26:52,719 --> 00:26:55,140 Speaker 1: make sense of who they are where they at in 546 00:26:55,150 --> 00:26:57,339 Speaker 1: life and they need someone to talk to. It's just 547 00:26:57,349 --> 00:26:59,900 Speaker 1: that very often the parent doesn't come to mind, right? 548 00:26:59,910 --> 00:27:02,479 Speaker 1: Because we've built that kind of relationship with them. So 549 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,910 Speaker 1: if not us, then maybe they need to have a 550 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,500 Speaker 1: close mentors, a close family friend, someone they can turn 551 00:27:08,510 --> 00:27:10,219 Speaker 1: to that they can confide in and then 552 00:27:10,569 --> 00:27:13,589 Speaker 1: I guess that will help give them an opportunity to 553 00:27:13,599 --> 00:27:15,750 Speaker 1: let off some steam if they need to and to 554 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,629 Speaker 1: get them on the right track at an early stage. 555 00:27:18,869 --> 00:27:20,949 Speaker 1: Because as we all know with technology today, it is 556 00:27:20,959 --> 00:27:24,599 Speaker 1: far less straightforward and it's so much easier to be 557 00:27:24,609 --> 00:27:26,349 Speaker 1: isolated and lonely without 558 00:27:26,444 --> 00:27:29,484 Speaker 1: anyone really knowing about it. Well, thank you all for 559 00:27:29,494 --> 00:27:32,744 Speaker 1: joining us on this chat today. Doctor Ali, Doctor Omar Nicholas. 560 00:27:32,755 --> 00:27:35,135 Speaker 1: Thank you for coming in. Sharing your thoughts on this. 561 00:27:35,405 --> 00:27:37,635 Speaker 1: I think my takeaway from our chat today. You just 562 00:27:37,645 --> 00:27:39,864 Speaker 1: got to keep the conversations going, the little chats with 563 00:27:39,875 --> 00:27:42,285 Speaker 1: the kids about what they're up to, what games they're playing. 564 00:27:42,555 --> 00:27:44,135 Speaker 1: I try to jump in and play with my son 565 00:27:44,145 --> 00:27:45,864 Speaker 1: once in a while. You know, at least I get 566 00:27:45,875 --> 00:27:47,464 Speaker 1: some sense of what he's up to, 567 00:27:47,729 --> 00:27:49,569 Speaker 1: as they say, I guess you got to try and 568 00:27:49,579 --> 00:27:52,409 Speaker 1: stay woke because if you're, you're that friend and you 569 00:27:52,420 --> 00:27:55,030 Speaker 1: hear something, at least you can act on it. Well, 570 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,550 Speaker 1: we hope you've enjoyed the conversation and that you've learned 571 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:01,869 Speaker 1: something from our discussion today. The team behind heart of 572 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,109 Speaker 1: the matter is Jacqueline Chan, Joanne Chan Tiffany sa we 573 00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:09,569 Speaker 1: and Christina Robert and I'm Steven Chow. I'll see you 574 00:28:09,579 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: next week.