WEBVTT - Will Southeast Asia’s digital rush come at a climate cost?

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to a CNA podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>AI, cloud computing, and lots of data. It's a new

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<v Speaker 2>year and these hot topics are only going to be

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<v Speaker 2>more front and center. Have you noticed that billions of

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<v Speaker 2>dollars are flowing into Southeast Asia from the world's largest

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<v Speaker 2>technology companies? What does it mean for us? And what

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<v Speaker 2>does it mean for the planet? Today, we step into

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<v Speaker 2>the middle of a

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<v Speaker 2>Tech rush. Hi and welcome to Climate Conversations. For the

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<v Speaker 2>first time in 2025, I'm Jack Bod. Hello, Lee Ling Tan.

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<v Speaker 2>Happy New Year to you. Hello there. Well, trying to

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<v Speaker 2>be ready for 2025, although I did catch a bug

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<v Speaker 2>on the way back from vacation. And that's kind of

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<v Speaker 2>slowing me down.

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<v Speaker 2>A bit. I think I might have laryngitis. How about you?

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<v Speaker 2>Did you get the best start to a new, new

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<v Speaker 2>podcast season with the, you know, losing your voice. We

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<v Speaker 2>can have that at the end of the year. I

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<v Speaker 2>guess that's the perils of traveling during the holiday period. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm feeling it a little bit as well, but I

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<v Speaker 2>think we'll, we'll we'll get into it. We'll battle through. Yes,

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<v Speaker 2>we will.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, we're talking all things data, data. Do you say,

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<v Speaker 2>which one do you say? Do you say because I

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<v Speaker 2>I know I say it differently and I'm often interviewing

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<v Speaker 2>people saying this word, uh, I could jar a bit,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, that we're saying. I think it's widely accepted

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<v Speaker 2>either way. OK, quiz, I know you've been, you've been

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<v Speaker 2>waiting for months for.

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<v Speaker 2>It feels like for a new quiz, today it's super simple.

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<v Speaker 2>It's going to focus on the energy use of AI processes,

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<v Speaker 2>which are becoming very common of course. Now Leil Ling,

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<v Speaker 2>have you created an AI image before?

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<v Speaker 2>Now this isn't the question. This isn't the quiz question.

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<v Speaker 2>That would have been a very easy question. No, I

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<v Speaker 2>have not created an AI image before. I don't even

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<v Speaker 2>know how I would start to do that. Have you? Maybe, yeah, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe that's something for 2025 for you to, to do. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>creating a single AI image.

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<v Speaker 2>Is the same as running your refrigerator for how long? Wow,

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<v Speaker 2>a day, a month?

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<v Speaker 2>A year? Good grief. I have no idea. Alright, well

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<v Speaker 2>you just get sit on that one. And we'll be

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<v Speaker 2>at the end.

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<v Speaker 2>OK, it's time for our main story this week, and

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<v Speaker 2>let me take you inside a data center. It takes

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<v Speaker 2>the press of a button for the secret room to

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<v Speaker 2>be revealed. A solid wall slides open, revealing the innards

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<v Speaker 2>of a data center through an expansive glass pane. Picture

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<v Speaker 2>rows and rows of black cages humming with sound and

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<v Speaker 2>lights blinking inside, stretching into the distance.

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<v Speaker 2>These are the network racks of the new industries driving

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<v Speaker 2>a digital transformation. This is a high security zone, that's

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<v Speaker 2>carefully temperature controlled, it's monitored by a team around the clock.

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<v Speaker 2>Even staff members need permission from their clients to enter

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<v Speaker 2>the data floor.

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<v Speaker 2>And these clients are the hyper scales, they're all here,

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<v Speaker 2>the cloud providers, big data, digital services, game makers, artificial

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<v Speaker 2>intelligence pioneers, operators that need vast computing resources, automation and efficiency.

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<v Speaker 2>Now this facility I'm in is dubbed STT Bank.

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<v Speaker 2>One, it stands out in a neighborhood in the Thai

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<v Speaker 2>capital with futuristic cladding, a high security perimeter. It's pretty

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<v Speaker 2>conspicuous amongst the residential apartments and small factories. This is

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<v Speaker 2>a data center operated by Singaporean outfit ST Tele Media

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<v Speaker 2>Global data centers.

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<v Speaker 2>But firms from all around the world are pouring billions

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<v Speaker 2>of dollars into buildings just like this right across Southeast Asia,

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<v Speaker 2>and they're forming part of a new digital infrastructure landscape

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<v Speaker 2>across the region. The tech rush is here. Lee Ling,

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<v Speaker 2>have you ever stepped inside a data center? What do

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<v Speaker 2>you think, Jack?

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<v Speaker 2>hanging out in data centers on the weekend. Oh, OK.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's the first time for me actually being

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<v Speaker 2>in one. I've seen the pictures of it, but never

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<v Speaker 2>gone inside before. Well, yeah, I definitely haven't been in one,

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<v Speaker 2>but I've seen, I think, a lot of them on television.

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<v Speaker 2>And in spy movies, um, and I do know that

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<v Speaker 2>these types of infrastructure are popping up all around us

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<v Speaker 2>because I read your article and that they're doing so

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<v Speaker 2>at a massive scale because they need to fulfill lots

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<v Speaker 2>of new tasks that our economies are increasingly requiring. So

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<v Speaker 2>these are cases in building like hidden hives, right? They're secretive, anonymous,

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<v Speaker 2>like you said, but increasingly vital for the digital economies.

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<v Speaker 2>I do want to pick your brains about.

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<v Speaker 2>Your research and doing the story though. So, so you

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<v Speaker 2>can help. So we can help our listeners unpack the

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<v Speaker 2>kind of growth that you're talking about and look at

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<v Speaker 2>the impact this is also having on energy consumption, because

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<v Speaker 2>that's really the big question mark for us. There are

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<v Speaker 2>multiple factors driving the growth of data centers, right? You

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<v Speaker 2>touched on AI development and the need for cloud computing.

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<v Speaker 2>Can you give us a rough idea of the size

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<v Speaker 2>of this growth? Yeah, exactly right. It's pushing.

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<v Speaker 2>20% annual growth in demand for data centers in the

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<v Speaker 2>ASEAN region all the way to 2028, so that's according

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<v Speaker 2>to analysis from Maybank. And then if we look globally,

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<v Speaker 2>all of this is happening at a rapid pace as well.

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<v Speaker 2>Computational needs are doubling every 100 days. It's all thanks

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<v Speaker 2>to AI. Now people are already using AI a lot

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<v Speaker 2>in their daily lives, and we know that these are

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<v Speaker 2>really intensive processes that require a lot of computer power. 88%

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<v Speaker 2>of knowledge workers in ASEAN are already using AI. That's

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<v Speaker 2>based on a report from LinkedIn and Microsoft, I'm guessing

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<v Speaker 2>you're not one of them.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm guessing you are. Yes, I am using AI, um,

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit. What do you use it for? I

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<v Speaker 2>mostly use it for researching. There are pretty useful tools,

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<v Speaker 2>useful AI tools that can help you find information really quickly.

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<v Speaker 2>So for that purpose, it's been great.

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<v Speaker 2>I know that there are a lot more things that

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<v Speaker 2>can be done, but, you know, slowly, slowly in the

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<v Speaker 2>journalism world to embrace these types of things. And of course,

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<v Speaker 2>AI is being built into a lot of the things

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<v Speaker 2>we do with our computers and phones anyway, that you

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<v Speaker 2>might not even really make a deliberate choice to use it.

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<v Speaker 2>And the other interesting thing as well.

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<v Speaker 2>That's happening is this deep demographic shift that we've seen

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<v Speaker 2>in recent years, the rise of the middle class, a

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<v Speaker 2>younger tech savvy workforce is emerging as well. And in

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<v Speaker 2>recent years, I think it was some 125,000 new internet

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<v Speaker 2>users have been coming online daily in the region, and

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<v Speaker 2>that's a staggering number really, isn't it? Yeah, 125,000 new

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<v Speaker 2>people to the internet every day. That's, I couldn't believe that, seeing,

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<v Speaker 2>seeing that statistic across Asia.

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<v Speaker 2>And of course, with all of this comes the steep

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<v Speaker 2>competition from some of the world's biggest and most influential

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<v Speaker 2>global tech companies that want a piece of this action. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>our region is broadly still underserved by data, so there's

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<v Speaker 2>lots of growth potential, and that's why we're starting to

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<v Speaker 2>see some of these huge investment announcements. So let's just

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<v Speaker 2>look at some of them from the past year.

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<v Speaker 2>Google, a billion dollars in Thailand, $2 billion in Malaysia,

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<v Speaker 2>the promise to create tens of thousands of jobs right

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<v Speaker 2>throughout Southeast Asia, Microsoft's pretty similar. Billions in Indonesia, Malaysia,

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<v Speaker 2>it's also building its first data center in Thailand. Amazon

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<v Speaker 2>Web Services, they've pledged some $9 billion for cloud services

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<v Speaker 2>and infrastructure in Singapore alone over the next 5 years and,

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<v Speaker 2>and more around the region. And then you throw in

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<v Speaker 2>the likes of,

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<v Speaker 2>Nvidia, China's GDS, lots of smaller operators, locally backed or

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<v Speaker 2>developed companies as well. It's a hot market out there for,

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<v Speaker 2>for these corporations trying to make their mark in the space.

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<v Speaker 2>But Jack, this wouldn't be climate conversations without having a

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<v Speaker 2>conversation about the climate, right? I know it's the quiz

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<v Speaker 2>question for later, but we know that the energy demands

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<v Speaker 2>of using generative AI are huge. Building out and then

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<v Speaker 2>running all of these data centers is going to be

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<v Speaker 2>very energy intensive.

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<v Speaker 2>Isn't it? Companies and governments are still facing a dilemma

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<v Speaker 2>around their carbon footprint and how to actually develop the

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<v Speaker 2>technology and the infrastructure without consuming so much fossil fuel energy. Yeah, definitely. And,

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<v Speaker 2>and of course this is an area that we know

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<v Speaker 2>is getting far more scrutiny. Now as economies slowly decarbonize

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<v Speaker 2>or try to decarbonize in response to,

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<v Speaker 2>The challenge of climate change. Data centers right now are

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<v Speaker 2>pushing the needle in the wrong direction. It seems pretty

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<v Speaker 2>undeniable that that's the case.

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<v Speaker 2>Energy use within these data centers is sky high. It's

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<v Speaker 2>estimated to already account for 1 to 1.5% of global

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<v Speaker 2>energy consumption, which is a lot, given the growth as

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<v Speaker 2>well that's happening in the, in this space that we

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<v Speaker 2>talked about earlier. If you just look at some of

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<v Speaker 2>the companies, Microsoft, for example, big investor in chat GPT

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<v Speaker 2>maker OpenAI, it's already seen its carbon emissions rise by 30%

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<v Speaker 2>since 2020 due to its investments in global data centers.

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<v Speaker 2>Then over to Google, it's also seen a 50% increase

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<v Speaker 2>in 2023 emissions compared to 2019, and that's also largely

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<v Speaker 2>attributed to data infrastructure. So you have companies like these

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<v Speaker 2>that have net zero goals, but all of a sudden

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<v Speaker 2>are nowhere close to achieving them because of this demand

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<v Speaker 2>for data and that's driven by AI.

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<v Speaker 2>And we've talked about some of the numbers, but let's

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<v Speaker 2>just look at how to train a generative AI model,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, that can be the equivalent of powering 100

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<v Speaker 2>homes for a year, and training something like chat GPT 4.

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<v Speaker 2>Was estimated to have used about 500 times that, so

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<v Speaker 2>these are really intensive processes. It's a huge amount of

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<v Speaker 2>energy and some big tech companies are already looking towards

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<v Speaker 2>alternative energy like nuclear power to replace some of the

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<v Speaker 2>fossil fuel based energy that's been powering a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>these data centers. Google, for example, announced last October that

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<v Speaker 2>it's entered a deal with the California company Cairo's Power

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<v Speaker 2>to buy 500 megawatts of nuclear energy by 20.

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<v Speaker 2>35 from what's known as small modular reactors. Our correspondent

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<v Speaker 2>in California, Iris Spitzer, recently did a story about these

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<v Speaker 2>so-called SMRRs. They are a fraction of the size of

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<v Speaker 2>conventional reactors and can be assembled at a factory and

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<v Speaker 2>transported elsewhere for installation. So not like, you know, those

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<v Speaker 2>big columns that we see that mark these nuclear plants

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<v Speaker 2>that we're so familiar with already, right? So these are

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<v Speaker 2>smaller experts say they can.

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<v Speaker 2>be up to 8% more efficient than traditional reactors as well.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not just Google, um, Amazon's also announced in October

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<v Speaker 2>deals for nuclear energy projects, including from small nuclear reactors

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<v Speaker 2>as part of the company's transition to carbon-free energy.

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<v Speaker 2>And Microsoft is also paying to restart one of the

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<v Speaker 2>Three Mile Island reactors in the US. The Three Mile Island,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, is famous for having suffered a partial meltdown

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<v Speaker 2>in 1979, and it has been shuttered ever since. So

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<v Speaker 2>it is kind of an interesting type of investment by

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<v Speaker 2>big tech, but there are of course also concerns about

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<v Speaker 2>the safety of nuclear power and nuclear.

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<v Speaker 2>Reactor. So it's still in the in the early stages

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<v Speaker 2>and definitely not something we're likely to see anytime soon

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<v Speaker 2>here in Asia, despite some discussion around nuclear power amid

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<v Speaker 2>the increasing pressure to transition to cleaner energy in the region. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>at present, half of Asia's electricity still comes from coal.

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<v Speaker 2>Major investments will need to keep happening over the next

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<v Speaker 2>decade to change that landscape.

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<v Speaker 2>Uh, renewable energy capacity will need to more than triple

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<v Speaker 2>by 2035 in order for countries to meet their key

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<v Speaker 2>decarbonization targets, uh, according to EMBA, an energy think tank.

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<v Speaker 2>But in the meantime, the power needs of data centers

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<v Speaker 2>globally is forcing a little rethink on those net zero

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<v Speaker 2>targets and keeping dirty plants alive. Yeah. I think a

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<v Speaker 2>key part of that discussion is that.

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<v Speaker 2>If companies do have access to clean energy, it will

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<v Speaker 2>drive more growth in the sector, and companies will come

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<v Speaker 2>and invest more in your country if they have fewer

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<v Speaker 2>concerns about the carbon impacts of their operations there. So

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<v Speaker 2>talking to operators who are setting up or already running

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<v Speaker 2>data centers in Thailand, there's a sense of like, of

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<v Speaker 2>difficulty that exists because they have no choice but to

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<v Speaker 2>use the power sources that are there. And if Thailand

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<v Speaker 2>itself as a country, for example, doesn't,

0:13:18.239 --> 0:13:22.719
<v Speaker 2>Install huge amounts of renewable energy, well, these countries, these

0:13:22.719 --> 0:13:28.099
<v Speaker 2>companies then bear the burden of having to use higher

0:13:28.099 --> 0:13:32.619
<v Speaker 2>polluting energy sources. So I think that's difficult. Obviously, having

0:13:32.619 --> 0:13:35.659
<v Speaker 2>the companies invest more in your country can lead to

0:13:35.659 --> 0:13:37.299
<v Speaker 2>various economic advantages.

0:13:37.770 --> 0:13:40.809
<v Speaker 2>AI is transforming so many of these sectors from education

0:13:40.809 --> 0:13:45.010
<v Speaker 2>to health, logistics, agriculture, your training, a new workforce, you're

0:13:45.010 --> 0:13:48.369
<v Speaker 2>adding wealth to your economy. I spoke to several regional

0:13:48.369 --> 0:13:49.960
<v Speaker 2>leaders from the tech world.

0:13:50.849 --> 0:13:54.250
<v Speaker 2>They're aware of this issue here. And right now, the

0:13:54.250 --> 0:13:57.080
<v Speaker 2>green solutions rollout is just happening a little bit more

0:13:57.080 --> 0:14:02.489
<v Speaker 2>slowly than this wild clamoring for digitalization. And before we

0:14:02.489 --> 0:14:05.839
<v Speaker 2>wrap up too, of course, we haven't touched all on regulations,

0:14:06.010 --> 0:14:07.690
<v Speaker 2>and this is a big part of the picture, how

0:14:07.690 --> 0:14:12.169
<v Speaker 2>we can create sustainable frameworks for this new technology to

0:14:12.169 --> 0:14:14.848
<v Speaker 2>ensure that it is equitable and transparent.

0:14:15.260 --> 0:14:17.179
<v Speaker 2>So if you are interested to learn more about what

0:14:17.179 --> 0:14:19.859
<v Speaker 2>countries in this region are doing in that space, do

0:14:19.859 --> 0:14:23.460
<v Speaker 2>check out my infocus story on CNA.Asia.

0:14:25.450 --> 0:14:29.809
<v Speaker 2>Quiz time. Lee Ling, you've been busy talking, but to

0:14:29.809 --> 0:14:35.849
<v Speaker 2>repeat your question, creating a single AI image is the

0:14:35.849 --> 0:14:39.760
<v Speaker 2>same as running your refrigerator for about how long?

0:14:40.909 --> 0:14:44.669
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna go with 1 month. This is you just

0:14:44.669 --> 0:14:49.799
<v Speaker 2>being anti-AI again. It's like, it's about 30 minutes. Oh, OK.

0:14:50.190 --> 0:14:52.729
<v Speaker 2>All right. But I think to put it into perspective,

0:14:52.789 --> 0:14:55.909
<v Speaker 2>you can create one of these images in seconds. You

0:14:55.909 --> 0:14:58.109
<v Speaker 2>could sit there on your computer for 5 minutes and

0:14:58.109 --> 0:15:03.030
<v Speaker 2>create 50 images if you wanted. So that's where you

0:15:03.030 --> 0:15:04.869
<v Speaker 2>need to probably pay attention to.

0:15:05.460 --> 0:15:09.140
<v Speaker 2>Um, how much energy you're using just by playing with

0:15:09.140 --> 0:15:12.599
<v Speaker 2>these fun little games, or these fun little image creators

0:15:12.940 --> 0:15:18.419
<v Speaker 2>for your podcast logo, for example. Cool input, input there.

0:15:18.500 --> 0:15:21.099
<v Speaker 2>Thank you for that. I feel enlightened. That was illuminating.

0:15:21.159 --> 0:15:22.130
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Jack.

0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:29.530
<v Speaker 2>OK. Now, it's weather time, brought to you by Lee

0:15:29.530 --> 0:15:32.530
<v Speaker 2>Ling Time. And thank you for that. And we continue

0:15:32.530 --> 0:15:35.739
<v Speaker 2>to expect both rainy days and bits of dry weather

0:15:35.739 --> 0:15:40.289
<v Speaker 2>across the region. Surprise, surprise. Uh, no, not really. Now,

0:15:40.369 --> 0:15:45.640
<v Speaker 2>the National Environment Agency in Singapore says prevailing northeast monsoon conditions,

0:15:45.650 --> 0:15:46.169
<v Speaker 2>I expect.

0:15:46.244 --> 0:15:49.724
<v Speaker 2>To continue in the first fortnight of the new year

0:15:49.724 --> 0:15:54.104
<v Speaker 2>with winds blowing mainly from the northwest or northeast. Now

0:15:54.104 --> 0:15:56.775
<v Speaker 2>what that means is that in Singapore, we can expect

0:15:56.775 --> 0:16:00.294
<v Speaker 2>moderate to heavy thundery showers on most days in the

0:16:00.294 --> 0:16:02.854
<v Speaker 2>first two weeks of the year. Now in the around

0:16:02.854 --> 0:16:05.815
<v Speaker 2>the middle of the month, strengthening of high pressure systems

0:16:05.815 --> 0:16:07.494
<v Speaker 2>over the northern Asian continent.

0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:10.520
<v Speaker 2>May bring a wind surge over the South China Sea.

0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:14.549
<v Speaker 2>And what that means, Jack, is wetter conditions in the region.

0:16:14.780 --> 0:16:17.440
<v Speaker 2>In Thailand, where you're at, temperatures will be in the

0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:21.390
<v Speaker 2>low to mid-30s through the middle of the month. Mostly sunny,

0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:25.159
<v Speaker 2>with reasonable humidity levels, not like here in Singapore. It

0:16:25.159 --> 0:16:29.159
<v Speaker 2>seems where we'll see a lot more rain and muggy weather. Hm,

0:16:29.340 --> 0:16:32.760
<v Speaker 2>low to mid-30s. I've heard that story before in terms

0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:34.119
<v Speaker 2>of the weather in Thailand.

0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:36.929
<v Speaker 2>Although we've had some really cool mornings and nights, so

0:16:36.929 --> 0:16:40.080
<v Speaker 2>that's been pleasant. We hope the air pollution stays away

0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:42.429
<v Speaker 2>for a little bit longer. Maybe you can update us

0:16:42.429 --> 0:16:44.080
<v Speaker 2>on the prospects for that next week.

0:16:45.950 --> 0:16:49.159
<v Speaker 2>OK, that's it for this episode of Climate Conversations. Thanks

0:16:49.159 --> 0:16:52.330
<v Speaker 2>as always for joining us early in 2025. See you

0:16:52.330 --> 0:16:56.039
<v Speaker 2>back here, same time, same place. Next week, I'm Lein Tan.

0:16:56.630 --> 0:16:58.549
<v Speaker 2>And I'm Jack Board. Thanks as always to the team

0:16:58.549 --> 0:17:02.619
<v Speaker 2>that put together this podcast, Sai Yayin, Tiffany Ang, Janai Jahari,

0:17:02.869 --> 0:17:04.030
<v Speaker 2>and Christina Roberts.