1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:05,539 Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast. 2 00:00:08,300 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: Can I really tell if my company is headed for 3 00:00:10,689 --> 00:00:10,699 Speaker 1: a 4 00:00:10,710 --> 00:00:11,529 Speaker 1: retrenchment? 5 00:00:11,539 --> 00:00:13,289 Speaker 2: Of course, there are some signs that are more obvious 6 00:00:13,300 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 2: than others. When retrenchment happens, it's due to one or 7 00:00:16,290 --> 00:00:19,110 Speaker 2: three reasons. One of the common scenarios in which retrenchments 8 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 2: happen is when companies expand too quickly, 9 00:00:23,430 --> 00:00:27,850 Speaker 1: retrenchment, the dreaded R word in the workplace at some 10 00:00:27,860 --> 00:00:31,100 Speaker 1: point in our careers, we might be left wondering will 11 00:00:31,110 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 1: I be next on the chopping block? Hi, this is 12 00:00:34,529 --> 00:00:37,529 Speaker 1: Tiffany and Gerald on the work it podcast. And today 13 00:00:37,590 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: we are going to talk about retrenchments. Yes. But before 14 00:00:41,689 --> 00:00:43,689 Speaker 1: we do that, we just want to remind everyone to 15 00:00:43,700 --> 00:00:46,259 Speaker 1: stay until the end where we have our ask me 16 00:00:46,270 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: anything segment. It is where we take a work related 17 00:00:49,090 --> 00:00:51,310 Speaker 1: question that you send to us and hopefully we can 18 00:00:51,319 --> 00:00:52,669 Speaker 1: give you advice that you need. 19 00:00:55,860 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: So, Tiffany, what's the ask me anything question for today? 20 00:00:59,049 --> 00:01:02,950 Speaker 1: Today's question is, is there a polite way to decline 21 00:01:02,959 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: work if I'm new to a company? But I'm already 22 00:01:06,169 --> 00:01:09,419 Speaker 1: overwhelmed with tasks that question was sent in by our 23 00:01:09,430 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: listener overloaded and I actually might have some advice for that. 24 00:01:13,589 --> 00:01:16,610 Speaker 1: But first, back to today's topic, retrenchments, I spoke about 25 00:01:16,620 --> 00:01:19,989 Speaker 1: that earlier. Gerald, among the people you work with, which 26 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:24,099 Speaker 1: age group would you say fear retrenchments? The most increasingly, 27 00:01:24,110 --> 00:01:27,089 Speaker 1: I think it's almost every age group, to be honest 28 00:01:27,099 --> 00:01:31,738 Speaker 1: because retrenchments affect employees of every level, every age these days. 29 00:01:31,970 --> 00:01:35,330 Speaker 1: But from my own experiences, perhaps people who are mid career, 30 00:01:35,339 --> 00:01:36,889 Speaker 1: maybe age above 40 31 00:01:36,980 --> 00:01:39,629 Speaker 1: they will probably be the most worried because they have 32 00:01:39,639 --> 00:01:42,110 Speaker 1: a lot of obligations to take care of. Yeah, you 33 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 1: are right because actually I've been seeing more younger people 34 00:01:44,690 --> 00:01:48,239 Speaker 1: getting retrenched too. I know someone who is in his 35 00:01:48,250 --> 00:01:51,190 Speaker 1: twenties and he was retrenched and they had actually only 36 00:01:51,199 --> 00:01:53,819 Speaker 1: joined this company for a year or two so straight 37 00:01:53,830 --> 00:01:56,139 Speaker 1: off the block. Right. They already got the cut. Yeah, 38 00:01:56,150 --> 00:01:57,959 Speaker 1: and it's not just the younger people, I think it's 39 00:01:57,970 --> 00:02:00,279 Speaker 1: even people who just work for a short period of time. 40 00:02:00,370 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: I recently met someone who only worked for four months, 41 00:02:03,319 --> 00:02:07,099 Speaker 1: cleared her probation and then was let go like within 42 00:02:07,110 --> 00:02:09,989 Speaker 1: three weeks after getting her probation cleared. So that really 43 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,710 Speaker 1: blew my mind what's going on. So how do you 44 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:15,769 Speaker 1: know if your company is headed for a round of 45 00:02:15,779 --> 00:02:19,710 Speaker 1: retrenchments and whether your name is on that dreaded list 46 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:22,580 Speaker 1: today with us in the studio, we have Francis Chan. 47 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:23,669 Speaker 1: He is an employee 48 00:02:23,910 --> 00:02:27,579 Speaker 1: lawyer and executive director at Titanium Law Chambers. Welcome 49 00:02:27,589 --> 00:02:29,940 Speaker 2: Francis. Hi. Thank you for having me Hey, Francis. 50 00:02:29,949 --> 00:02:32,860 Speaker 1: So this is obviously a very grim topic. But let's 51 00:02:32,869 --> 00:02:35,179 Speaker 1: start off with the very big question that we are 52 00:02:35,190 --> 00:02:37,970 Speaker 1: all here for today, which is, can I really tell 53 00:02:37,979 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: if my company is headed for a retrenchment? That sort 54 00:02:40,369 --> 00:02:41,820 Speaker 1: of visible signs? 55 00:02:41,830 --> 00:02:44,220 Speaker 2: That's a big question nowadays, because in the news, you 56 00:02:44,229 --> 00:02:46,168 Speaker 2: see a lot of retrenchments going on and it starts 57 00:02:46,179 --> 00:02:47,038 Speaker 2: to send people 58 00:02:47,288 --> 00:02:50,279 Speaker 2: into sometimes in an overthinking mode because they start to 59 00:02:50,288 --> 00:02:52,580 Speaker 2: pick up on every single sign they see in the workplace. 60 00:02:52,589 --> 00:02:54,070 Speaker 2: But of course, there are some signs that are more 61 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,149 Speaker 2: obvious than others. But, you know, I always like to 62 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 2: start by saying when it comes to retrenchment. If there 63 00:02:58,529 --> 00:03:00,698 Speaker 2: are signs, it's actually a good thing because I think 64 00:03:00,710 --> 00:03:02,829 Speaker 2: what causes a lot of uncertainty for employees is when 65 00:03:02,839 --> 00:03:04,630 Speaker 2: there are no signs and they are left to guess 66 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:05,059 Speaker 2: on their 67 00:03:05,070 --> 00:03:05,508 Speaker 2: own 68 00:03:05,619 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden it happens, then nobody 69 00:03:07,929 --> 00:03:08,350 Speaker 1: is prepared 70 00:03:08,360 --> 00:03:08,758 Speaker 1: for that. 71 00:03:08,770 --> 00:03:11,750 Speaker 2: Yeah. Correct. So when companies communicate the intention to carry 72 00:03:11,758 --> 00:03:13,589 Speaker 2: a retrenchment, that's when it's not. So, 73 00:03:14,141 --> 00:03:16,272 Speaker 2: but when employees have to do some guess work, that's 74 00:03:16,281 --> 00:03:19,431 Speaker 2: when it creates uncertainty because for example, they may see 75 00:03:19,442 --> 00:03:22,090 Speaker 2: there's a hiring freeze, then they will see companies not 76 00:03:22,102 --> 00:03:24,802 Speaker 2: willing to spend maybe they're actually going to cut. But actually, 77 00:03:24,811 --> 00:03:27,222 Speaker 2: that could be interpreted in a number of ways. For example, 78 00:03:27,231 --> 00:03:30,052 Speaker 2: a hiring freeze could simply be due to certain business needs. 79 00:03:30,061 --> 00:03:32,861 Speaker 2: But remember, retrenchment is letting you go because the company 80 00:03:32,871 --> 00:03:35,251 Speaker 2: does not need you just because the company is cutting 81 00:03:35,261 --> 00:03:36,951 Speaker 2: costs and all that, they may actually be trying to 82 00:03:36,962 --> 00:03:39,932 Speaker 2: save your job. Ok? When retrenchment happens, it's due to 83 00:03:39,942 --> 00:03:39,981 Speaker 2: what 84 00:03:40,093 --> 00:03:42,854 Speaker 2: or three reasons. One is redundancy when you enroll is 85 00:03:42,863 --> 00:03:45,294 Speaker 2: no longer required. For example, company wants to shut down 86 00:03:45,304 --> 00:03:47,404 Speaker 2: the Australia desk and you are the head of the 87 00:03:47,414 --> 00:03:50,143 Speaker 2: Australia desk. So therefore you're being let go. Number two 88 00:03:50,294 --> 00:03:53,232 Speaker 2: is when there is a reorganization, for example, a merger 89 00:03:53,244 --> 00:03:56,953 Speaker 2: and acquisition happens, company A acquires company b both companies 90 00:03:56,964 --> 00:03:59,774 Speaker 2: have 10 administration people on their teams, but there are 91 00:03:59,783 --> 00:04:02,184 Speaker 2: only 10 spots, correct, 10 or 15 spots. So they 92 00:04:02,194 --> 00:04:03,824 Speaker 2: have to let about five go because you don't need 93 00:04:03,833 --> 00:04:06,393 Speaker 2: that many in the new company and that is cost cutting. 94 00:04:06,585 --> 00:04:09,335 Speaker 2: So when it comes to redundancy, this one will really 95 00:04:09,345 --> 00:04:11,026 Speaker 2: depend on what kind of news that you pick up. 96 00:04:11,035 --> 00:04:12,535 Speaker 2: You can pick up news in the market, you can 97 00:04:12,546 --> 00:04:15,335 Speaker 2: pick up news internally, right? If the company has plans 98 00:04:15,345 --> 00:04:17,675 Speaker 2: to exit a certain market or to downsize a certain role, 99 00:04:17,686 --> 00:04:21,015 Speaker 2: because if you're in that role, presumably you have certain 100 00:04:21,026 --> 00:04:23,794 Speaker 2: knowledge as to whether or not there's increased or decreased 101 00:04:23,805 --> 00:04:26,354 Speaker 2: demand in your particular area, in what you're selling, in 102 00:04:26,365 --> 00:04:29,096 Speaker 2: what you're doing, for example, right? But of course, it 103 00:04:29,105 --> 00:04:31,695 Speaker 2: then comes down to the company culture, some companies, they 104 00:04:31,705 --> 00:04:32,786 Speaker 2: are prepared to take care of their 105 00:04:32,898 --> 00:04:35,817 Speaker 2: employees because sales for example can be a cyclical thing, right? 106 00:04:35,827 --> 00:04:37,638 Speaker 2: So they are prepared to just let you hang on 107 00:04:37,648 --> 00:04:39,787 Speaker 2: the demand picks up again, they can hit the ground running. 108 00:04:39,798 --> 00:04:41,857 Speaker 2: But most of the time this is coupled with the 109 00:04:41,868 --> 00:04:44,657 Speaker 2: cost cutting side because if the company wants to cost cut, 110 00:04:44,666 --> 00:04:47,197 Speaker 2: when demand is low, then that's where you will see 111 00:04:47,208 --> 00:04:49,638 Speaker 2: retrenchments happening. So when it comes to cost cutting, right, 112 00:04:49,648 --> 00:04:53,178 Speaker 2: for example, hiring freeze, you can see companies cutting back 113 00:04:53,187 --> 00:04:55,476 Speaker 2: on a regular event. So for example, every month there 114 00:04:55,488 --> 00:04:57,527 Speaker 2: used to be an employee lunch. Now there's no more. 115 00:04:57,537 --> 00:04:59,157 Speaker 2: These are some signs that you will see 116 00:04:59,470 --> 00:05:01,619 Speaker 2: when it comes to reorganization. I think this is the 117 00:05:01,630 --> 00:05:04,829 Speaker 2: most straightforward and easy to tell because a reorganization doesn't 118 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:07,769 Speaker 2: happen overnight. It takes months and maybe even years of 119 00:05:07,779 --> 00:05:10,410 Speaker 2: preparation people in the company will be involved doing it. 120 00:05:10,678 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 2: And therefore you will be able to pick up news 121 00:05:13,049 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: internally or even in the market, especially if your company 122 00:05:15,649 --> 00:05:17,970 Speaker 2: is a big company that emerge is going to happen 123 00:05:17,980 --> 00:05:19,268 Speaker 2: and acquisition is going to happen. 124 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:19,469 Speaker 1: You're 125 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:21,659 Speaker 1: saying that when a company goes through cost cutting, it 126 00:05:21,670 --> 00:05:25,519 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that the retrenchment will happen immediately. But that 127 00:05:25,529 --> 00:05:27,820 Speaker 1: could be like a step one out of a 128 00:05:27,869 --> 00:05:30,109 Speaker 1: few steps that is happening. How much of these cost 129 00:05:30,119 --> 00:05:32,579 Speaker 1: cutting measures need to happen before we kind of get 130 00:05:32,589 --> 00:05:34,769 Speaker 1: a sense that the company's financial health is not doing 131 00:05:34,779 --> 00:05:38,630 Speaker 1: well and that they may have to start laying off people. 132 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:38,950 Speaker 1: So 133 00:05:38,959 --> 00:05:41,170 Speaker 2: I think this is part and parcel to us being 134 00:05:41,178 --> 00:05:44,269 Speaker 2: in an Asian society. So companies as a starting point, 135 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,089 Speaker 2: they don't like to let employees go if they can 136 00:05:46,100 --> 00:05:48,769 Speaker 2: help it. But we have that kind of culture. In fact, 137 00:05:48,779 --> 00:05:50,390 Speaker 2: when I speak to a lot of clients, because part 138 00:05:50,399 --> 00:05:53,078 Speaker 2: of my job is to actually help companies execute the 139 00:05:53,089 --> 00:05:56,179 Speaker 2: retrenchments and help them execute terminations of employment. 140 00:05:56,269 --> 00:05:59,019 Speaker 2: Sometimes when I sit down with hr professionals, they could 141 00:05:59,029 --> 00:06:01,649 Speaker 2: have 1520 years experience. And then I will ask them, 142 00:06:01,660 --> 00:06:04,940 Speaker 2: is this your first termination? And then about 50 60% 143 00:06:04,950 --> 00:06:06,140 Speaker 2: of the time they would say yes. 144 00:06:06,149 --> 00:06:06,359 Speaker 1: Oh 145 00:06:06,369 --> 00:06:08,209 Speaker 1: wow. So it's also a new thing for them. 146 00:06:08,220 --> 00:06:10,029 Speaker 2: It's a very new thing because maybe we are not 147 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:13,410 Speaker 2: so confrontational or we want to protect our people. So therefore, 148 00:06:13,420 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 2: most of the time companies will actually try and save 149 00:06:16,010 --> 00:06:18,160 Speaker 2: the jobs of people instead of letting them go, they 150 00:06:18,170 --> 00:06:20,149 Speaker 2: will hope that employees will leave. So you don't see 151 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 2: outright terminations a lot when it comes to the cost 152 00:06:22,850 --> 00:06:24,570 Speaker 2: cutting measures that you observe, I think 153 00:06:24,799 --> 00:06:26,769 Speaker 2: it's not just the cost cutting measures, but you have 154 00:06:26,779 --> 00:06:29,769 Speaker 2: to observe what is really happening. For example, one of 155 00:06:29,779 --> 00:06:32,859 Speaker 2: the common scenarios in which retrenchments happen is when companies 156 00:06:32,869 --> 00:06:35,690 Speaker 2: expand too quickly, they hire too many people at one 157 00:06:35,700 --> 00:06:38,149 Speaker 2: point in time, then they realize that the demand for 158 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 2: their goods and services cannot be sustained and therefore they 159 00:06:41,209 --> 00:06:43,579 Speaker 2: will try to implement cost cutting measures in order to 160 00:06:43,589 --> 00:06:45,640 Speaker 2: preserve the team. But if you are an employee, you 161 00:06:45,649 --> 00:06:47,540 Speaker 2: know that your company has suddenly hired a lot of 162 00:06:47,549 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 2: people recently, but you see the demand has slowed down 163 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 2: and then companies taking on cost cutting measures. It's not 164 00:06:52,850 --> 00:06:55,709 Speaker 2: so much that the retrenchment is on the horizon. But 165 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:57,829 Speaker 2: you know that it is one of the real possibilities 166 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,570 Speaker 2: that will happen soon after. And also in terms of 167 00:07:00,579 --> 00:07:03,339 Speaker 2: work is work slowing down for you. Are you seeing 168 00:07:03,350 --> 00:07:06,829 Speaker 2: managers or teams leaving the company for whatever reason? But 169 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:09,049 Speaker 2: if you see all these signs, in addition to the 170 00:07:09,059 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 2: cost cutting measures, that's when you may start to feel 171 00:07:11,170 --> 00:07:13,119 Speaker 2: that a retrenchment is on the horizon. 172 00:07:13,130 --> 00:07:13,359 Speaker 1: I'm 173 00:07:13,369 --> 00:07:16,059 Speaker 1: starting to hear what Francis is saying, right? And really, 174 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 1: it's pointing towards that companies actually don't really want to 175 00:07:19,730 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: let people go. And this is very different from, that's 176 00:07:21,890 --> 00:07:24,290 Speaker 1: the starting point. That's the starting point and very different 177 00:07:24,299 --> 00:07:27,089 Speaker 1: from how is perceived outside is like company can't wait 178 00:07:27,100 --> 00:07:28,790 Speaker 1: to cut me company, can't wait to let us go. 179 00:07:28,799 --> 00:07:31,420 Speaker 1: But here we have Francis saying that he deals with companies, 180 00:07:31,429 --> 00:07:33,970 Speaker 1: he advises them on these matters. And so actually a 181 00:07:33,980 --> 00:07:35,589 Speaker 1: lot of them don't want to let people go and 182 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,980 Speaker 1: they're doing their best to save money to reorganize work, 183 00:07:38,989 --> 00:07:41,739 Speaker 1: to preserve the team as much as possible. And 184 00:07:41,839 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: to a point where it gets impossible, you have to 185 00:07:44,489 --> 00:07:46,420 Speaker 1: do some right sizing, you have to do some letting go. 186 00:07:46,630 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: So 187 00:07:46,890 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 2: it's a bit like Asian parenting also because earlier on 188 00:07:48,890 --> 00:07:50,869 Speaker 2: I said we are like an Asian society, right? What 189 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:52,769 Speaker 2: comes across to the employees may be different because a 190 00:07:52,779 --> 00:07:54,989 Speaker 2: lot of management, they don't want to let employees know 191 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:56,869 Speaker 2: because they don't want to worry them. So you have 192 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 2: all these back and discussions but you know, people being 193 00:07:58,890 --> 00:08:02,010 Speaker 2: people something will leak out. Of course. And then that's 194 00:08:02,019 --> 00:08:03,459 Speaker 2: why you get all your rumors and all that and 195 00:08:03,470 --> 00:08:05,489 Speaker 2: then management were denied because again, they don't want to 196 00:08:05,500 --> 00:08:07,429 Speaker 2: worry the employers, right? But of course, 197 00:08:07,519 --> 00:08:09,859 Speaker 2: let's deal with the reality that people know about it. 198 00:08:09,869 --> 00:08:12,220 Speaker 2: They can see the signs. They are not silly, right? 199 00:08:12,230 --> 00:08:14,220 Speaker 2: But instead of doing that, then measurement keeps holding until 200 00:08:14,230 --> 00:08:16,399 Speaker 2: the last moment where they have absolutely no choice, then 201 00:08:16,410 --> 00:08:18,179 Speaker 2: they will come out and say guys, we need to 202 00:08:18,190 --> 00:08:20,670 Speaker 2: do the retrenchment and that's where everyone gets upset because 203 00:08:20,679 --> 00:08:22,859 Speaker 2: why are you pulling the rug from underneath my feet? 204 00:08:22,869 --> 00:08:25,470 Speaker 2: I've been asking you're not telling and now you come 205 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:27,609 Speaker 2: and tell me what I already knew six months ago. 206 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,299 Speaker 1: Yeah. So really there's a trust deficit because they feel 207 00:08:30,309 --> 00:08:32,699 Speaker 1: that the company is not being very transparent and open 208 00:08:32,710 --> 00:08:33,098 Speaker 1: to them. But 209 00:08:33,349 --> 00:08:35,569 Speaker 1: I guess most companies will, whether it is it in 210 00:08:35,580 --> 00:08:39,108 Speaker 1: town halls or their meetings with department heads will just 211 00:08:39,219 --> 00:08:41,729 Speaker 1: give them a heads up, right? They will say that. Ok, guys, 212 00:08:41,739 --> 00:08:45,079 Speaker 1: headwinds are coming and things are not looking very good. 213 00:08:45,090 --> 00:08:48,559 Speaker 1: We've got a recession that is coming soon. But then 214 00:08:48,570 --> 00:08:51,289 Speaker 1: that's as far as I think companies will say because 215 00:08:51,299 --> 00:08:53,169 Speaker 1: like you say, they don't want to create mass panic, 216 00:08:53,260 --> 00:08:54,539 Speaker 1: they don't want people to start 217 00:08:54,663 --> 00:08:56,732 Speaker 1: legal. Oh, my company is going to go for a 218 00:08:56,742 --> 00:08:58,522 Speaker 1: retrenchment in the next three months. I need to start 219 00:08:58,533 --> 00:09:01,513 Speaker 1: looking for jobs. So how does a company then balance, 220 00:09:01,523 --> 00:09:05,302 Speaker 1: try to be as transparent as they can while not 221 00:09:05,312 --> 00:09:06,671 Speaker 1: creating mass panic? 222 00:09:06,812 --> 00:09:08,862 Speaker 2: I think Tiffany, what you said should be the basic 223 00:09:08,872 --> 00:09:11,242 Speaker 2: playbook for a lot of companies because a lot of companies, 224 00:09:11,252 --> 00:09:13,703 Speaker 2: they don't even do that. What companies need to know 225 00:09:13,713 --> 00:09:15,422 Speaker 2: is that and I digress a bit into a bit 226 00:09:15,432 --> 00:09:15,922 Speaker 2: of hr 227 00:09:15,976 --> 00:09:18,825 Speaker 2: practice because I'm also a hr practitioner. I would say 228 00:09:18,835 --> 00:09:20,556 Speaker 2: that the one thing that employers need to learn to 229 00:09:20,565 --> 00:09:23,435 Speaker 2: do is to treat their employees like adults. A lot 230 00:09:23,445 --> 00:09:26,356 Speaker 2: of employers feel that their employees can't handle bad news 231 00:09:26,455 --> 00:09:29,064 Speaker 2: that they can't handle changes. And so in their well 232 00:09:29,075 --> 00:09:31,145 Speaker 2: intentioned and I'm assuming that it is well intentioned. They 233 00:09:31,155 --> 00:09:33,895 Speaker 2: try to shield them from all these external her and 234 00:09:33,905 --> 00:09:35,515 Speaker 2: happenings or whatever it is. Like I said, it is 235 00:09:35,526 --> 00:09:39,106 Speaker 2: like Asian parenting, but because their employees are adults and 236 00:09:39,116 --> 00:09:41,226 Speaker 2: they feel that they are being treated like Children, therefore 237 00:09:41,236 --> 00:09:41,795 Speaker 2: they react 238 00:09:42,049 --> 00:09:44,510 Speaker 2: more adversely when it actually happens. So that being the 239 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:46,919 Speaker 2: starting point, I think it is ok for companies to 240 00:09:46,929 --> 00:09:49,049 Speaker 2: sit their employees down and say guys, we are not 241 00:09:49,059 --> 00:09:51,390 Speaker 2: doing well. But if you can work together with us, 242 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,618 Speaker 2: we hope to do better. And then in the meantime, 243 00:09:53,630 --> 00:09:56,059 Speaker 2: these are some measures that we are considering taking in 244 00:09:56,070 --> 00:09:58,750 Speaker 2: order to avoid layoffs. If you can help us with this, 245 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,210 Speaker 2: if we can have an increment freeze in the meantime, 246 00:10:01,219 --> 00:10:03,349 Speaker 2: or if we can work in a certain direction, right, 247 00:10:03,359 --> 00:10:05,169 Speaker 2: then perhaps in the next six months to a year 248 00:10:05,179 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 2: when things get better, then we can reinstate the increment 249 00:10:07,530 --> 00:10:08,549 Speaker 2: that we will ordinarily 250 00:10:08,648 --> 00:10:10,147 Speaker 2: have given you. And I think people would take it 251 00:10:10,158 --> 00:10:12,067 Speaker 2: a lot better. And if they think that they don't 252 00:10:12,078 --> 00:10:13,588 Speaker 2: want to stay with this company, they think it is 253 00:10:13,598 --> 00:10:15,668 Speaker 2: a sinking ship, then it's up to them to leave. 254 00:10:15,677 --> 00:10:17,778 Speaker 2: But at least they live on their terms. And when 255 00:10:17,788 --> 00:10:19,687 Speaker 2: it comes to retrenchment, I think there's a lot of 256 00:10:19,697 --> 00:10:22,867 Speaker 2: sour taste in people's mouths because of the issue of closure, 257 00:10:23,117 --> 00:10:25,098 Speaker 2: they don't get the closure they want. Because why is 258 00:10:25,107 --> 00:10:26,307 Speaker 2: retrenchment always it's 259 00:10:26,317 --> 00:10:26,518 Speaker 1: always 260 00:10:26,528 --> 00:10:29,506 Speaker 1: seen negatively, right? There's a negative connotation to that. It's 261 00:10:29,518 --> 00:10:29,677 Speaker 1: always 262 00:10:29,687 --> 00:10:32,918 Speaker 2: seen negatively because to the employee, it was involuntary, it 263 00:10:33,057 --> 00:10:35,148 Speaker 2: is due to circumstances beyond my control. 264 00:10:35,356 --> 00:10:37,986 Speaker 2: So for example, if someone is let go for poor performance, 265 00:10:38,035 --> 00:10:41,625 Speaker 2: for misconduct or business reasons, whatever it is, I think 266 00:10:41,635 --> 00:10:43,755 Speaker 2: it is easier for them to process because they had 267 00:10:43,765 --> 00:10:45,645 Speaker 2: a part to play in the decision. Right. If it's 268 00:10:45,655 --> 00:10:47,944 Speaker 2: a poor performance, I had something to do with it. 269 00:10:48,046 --> 00:10:49,976 Speaker 2: But if it's retrench, I've been working so hard for 270 00:10:49,986 --> 00:10:52,106 Speaker 2: the company, I've been giving you my blood, sweat tears 271 00:10:52,116 --> 00:10:55,495 Speaker 2: for 1020 30 years or even six months. Right. And 272 00:10:55,505 --> 00:10:57,585 Speaker 2: then suddenly you tell me you don't need me anymore 273 00:10:57,716 --> 00:11:00,684 Speaker 2: and emotionally there's a lot to process for the employee. Right? 274 00:11:00,695 --> 00:11:01,745 Speaker 2: Because there's feelings of 275 00:11:01,843 --> 00:11:05,164 Speaker 2: rejection, not being wanted. Now, so many employees, why me? 276 00:11:05,333 --> 00:11:07,143 Speaker 2: The question is always why me and I think that's 277 00:11:07,153 --> 00:11:08,624 Speaker 2: something companies don't take care of 278 00:11:09,184 --> 00:11:11,833 Speaker 1: the psychological impact on the employee when they have gone 279 00:11:11,843 --> 00:11:13,633 Speaker 1: through retrenchment. Actually, it's quite big for some, it can 280 00:11:13,643 --> 00:11:15,924 Speaker 1: even be traumatic. There's a shadow to it. I mean, 281 00:11:15,934 --> 00:11:17,773 Speaker 1: even as they go through, even if they find a 282 00:11:17,783 --> 00:11:21,213 Speaker 1: new job, they start to worry unnecessarily like, ok, then 283 00:11:21,323 --> 00:11:22,833 Speaker 1: am I going to be cut again? Then they start 284 00:11:22,843 --> 00:11:24,814 Speaker 1: to look out for the signs even more. There will 285 00:11:24,823 --> 00:11:26,903 Speaker 1: be the sense of paranoia. Yes. So it will start 286 00:11:26,914 --> 00:11:28,343 Speaker 1: to make them become more fear 287 00:11:28,591 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: when they are working rather than being focused on their work. 288 00:11:30,932 --> 00:11:32,302 Speaker 1: I want to go back to an earlier point when 289 00:11:32,312 --> 00:11:35,330 Speaker 1: you talk about visible sites as you guys were talking, 290 00:11:35,341 --> 00:11:39,252 Speaker 1: I remember during the Lehman Brothers crisis, I remember actually 291 00:11:39,261 --> 00:11:43,382 Speaker 1: a few companies throw salary increments. They also told their 292 00:11:43,392 --> 00:11:47,122 Speaker 1: employees that, ok, we're gonna do no pay block leave. 293 00:11:47,131 --> 00:11:47,492 Speaker 2: This is 294 00:11:47,502 --> 00:11:50,502 Speaker 2: how I like to explain terminations and retrenchments to people. 295 00:11:50,591 --> 00:11:53,151 Speaker 2: It is somewhat like ending a relationship when you want 296 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:54,942 Speaker 2: to end things with your boyfriend, your girlfriend, right? 297 00:11:55,179 --> 00:11:58,218 Speaker 2: You always start to see signs of behavioral change, right? 298 00:11:58,229 --> 00:12:00,390 Speaker 2: So when you start to see companies starting to do 299 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,239 Speaker 2: things that may be out of character, not in line 300 00:12:02,250 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 2: with what they usually do, then of course, it may 301 00:12:04,690 --> 00:12:07,369 Speaker 2: not always result in a retrenchment. But in that sense, 302 00:12:07,380 --> 00:12:09,218 Speaker 2: you have to ask yourself, why are they doing these things? 303 00:12:09,229 --> 00:12:10,858 Speaker 2: Why would they not want to give an increment that 304 00:12:10,869 --> 00:12:13,159 Speaker 2: they've been giving every year for the last 1020 years? 305 00:12:13,169 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 2: Is there a reason why, why are they freezing pay? 306 00:12:15,690 --> 00:12:17,820 Speaker 2: Why are they freezing hiring all these are out of 307 00:12:17,830 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 2: character behavior? Ok. Right. Which against companies are doing 308 00:12:20,838 --> 00:12:23,718 Speaker 2: because of an unprecedented situation that they may not have 309 00:12:23,727 --> 00:12:26,447 Speaker 2: faced before. And I think something that employees need to 310 00:12:26,458 --> 00:12:28,168 Speaker 2: also know is that when a company is going through 311 00:12:28,177 --> 00:12:30,857 Speaker 2: a financial crisis, it may be there first. So there 312 00:12:30,867 --> 00:12:33,018 Speaker 2: may not be a playbook for it. Right. So management 313 00:12:33,028 --> 00:12:34,647 Speaker 2: may be trying to build a plane as they fall 314 00:12:34,658 --> 00:12:38,057 Speaker 2: down the cliff and then eventually some companies get it right. 315 00:12:38,067 --> 00:12:40,278 Speaker 2: Some companies don't get it so. Right. And I think 316 00:12:40,288 --> 00:12:43,038 Speaker 2: in that sense, employees only see the end point of it, right, 317 00:12:43,047 --> 00:12:45,436 Speaker 2: which is the decision that is communicated to them. But 318 00:12:45,447 --> 00:12:46,408 Speaker 2: along the way, yes, there will 319 00:12:46,495 --> 00:12:48,476 Speaker 2: be all these signs and I think this is where 320 00:12:48,486 --> 00:12:51,856 Speaker 2: employees can not to react immediately and instinctively, but try 321 00:12:51,866 --> 00:12:54,625 Speaker 2: and get more information from the company as well. 322 00:12:54,635 --> 00:12:56,916 Speaker 1: Just now you mentioned about the point about why me, right. 323 00:12:57,026 --> 00:13:00,715 Speaker 1: So from your experiences working with companies, when the company 324 00:13:00,726 --> 00:13:03,676 Speaker 1: has decided to go for the retrenchment exercise, then how 325 00:13:03,684 --> 00:13:05,346 Speaker 1: do they usually decide who to cut 326 00:13:05,356 --> 00:13:05,806 Speaker 1: first? 327 00:13:05,926 --> 00:13:08,176 Speaker 2: Ok. So usually what companies will do is they will 328 00:13:08,184 --> 00:13:10,776 Speaker 2: look at the functions that may not be necessary, that 329 00:13:10,785 --> 00:13:12,074 Speaker 2: may not be essential for them to 330 00:13:12,153 --> 00:13:14,632 Speaker 2: move on. But of course, they will always inevitably come 331 00:13:14,643 --> 00:13:16,174 Speaker 2: to a point where within the team, we need to 332 00:13:16,184 --> 00:13:18,124 Speaker 2: pick like two out of five to cut. So how 333 00:13:18,133 --> 00:13:19,773 Speaker 2: do we pick the two out of five? So as 334 00:13:19,783 --> 00:13:21,643 Speaker 2: a lawyer, I always refer my clients to what the 335 00:13:21,653 --> 00:13:25,614 Speaker 2: tripartite advisory on managing access manpower says, which is to 336 00:13:25,624 --> 00:13:28,794 Speaker 2: rely on objective criteria. So the easiest one to rely 337 00:13:28,804 --> 00:13:31,794 Speaker 2: on is actually based on performance. Because if out of 338 00:13:31,804 --> 00:13:35,653 Speaker 2: the five, you randomly pick to any arbitrary decision usually 339 00:13:35,664 --> 00:13:37,733 Speaker 2: does not sit well with employees because it's 340 00:13:37,812 --> 00:13:39,791 Speaker 2: like a why me sort of thing. It's like how 341 00:13:39,802 --> 00:13:42,011 Speaker 2: people may feel emotional where in the whole long line 342 00:13:42,021 --> 00:13:44,072 Speaker 2: of cars, only your car got summoned by the other 343 00:13:44,081 --> 00:13:44,791 Speaker 2: cars or 344 00:13:45,021 --> 00:13:46,801 Speaker 1: only your car got stopped at 345 00:13:46,812 --> 00:13:47,992 Speaker 1: the roadblock. Yeah. Correct. 346 00:13:48,002 --> 00:13:50,391 Speaker 2: So then you be why me this is discrimination. So 347 00:13:50,401 --> 00:13:52,372 Speaker 2: to avoid these kind of things, I always tell my clients. Ok, 348 00:13:52,381 --> 00:13:55,111 Speaker 2: if you need to pick people pick based on performance 349 00:13:55,122 --> 00:13:57,631 Speaker 2: and based on objective metrics. So for example, based on 350 00:13:57,642 --> 00:14:01,432 Speaker 2: their last two performance appraisals, based on their own supervisors assessment, 351 00:14:01,442 --> 00:14:03,351 Speaker 2: basically something that you can just 352 00:14:03,469 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 2: because the employee will always ask by me and you 353 00:14:05,890 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 2: should have an answer to that. Ok. 354 00:14:07,650 --> 00:14:10,479 Speaker 1: Is there a certain period of the year where retrenchments 355 00:14:10,489 --> 00:14:11,429 Speaker 1: would generally 356 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 1: happen? I would say 357 00:14:12,409 --> 00:14:14,289 Speaker 2: no, but I will say that those that we know 358 00:14:14,299 --> 00:14:17,330 Speaker 2: about tend to happen before certain public holidays. 359 00:14:17,510 --> 00:14:18,489 Speaker 1: Yeah, Chinese New Year. 360 00:14:18,619 --> 00:14:20,809 Speaker 2: Yeah, before Chinese New Year before Christmas, 361 00:14:20,820 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: that's like the 362 00:14:21,450 --> 00:14:24,739 Speaker 1: worst time to like let people go. Yeah, either before 363 00:14:24,750 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: or just after. It depends because from my past working experiences, 364 00:14:27,849 --> 00:14:29,669 Speaker 1: I think at the start of the year, you kind 365 00:14:29,679 --> 00:14:31,270 Speaker 1: of have your orders for the year, you kind of 366 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:32,419 Speaker 1: have your forecast for the year 367 00:14:32,780 --> 00:14:34,729 Speaker 1: and you kind of know, ok, we may not be 368 00:14:34,739 --> 00:14:36,710 Speaker 1: able to sustain with the manpower that we have. So 369 00:14:36,719 --> 00:14:38,630 Speaker 1: we may need to make some cuts. So then do 370 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,090 Speaker 1: we want to let them cut before the holiday so 371 00:14:41,099 --> 00:14:42,590 Speaker 1: that they have the holiday to think about it or 372 00:14:42,599 --> 00:14:44,669 Speaker 1: the holiday was suck or they will do it after 373 00:14:44,679 --> 00:14:46,609 Speaker 1: that so that they can enjoy the holiday first. So 374 00:14:46,619 --> 00:14:48,770 Speaker 1: I think this is not like atypical for every industry, 375 00:14:48,780 --> 00:14:50,619 Speaker 1: but we have seen this in some manufacturing before. 376 00:14:50,630 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 2: But what says is from the very well intentioned point 377 00:14:53,210 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 2: of view, some employers would do it just before year 378 00:14:55,770 --> 00:14:57,349 Speaker 2: end so that they can avoid paying these people 379 00:14:57,434 --> 00:14:58,294 Speaker 2: year and bonuses. 380 00:14:58,304 --> 00:14:59,463 Speaker 1: No, that 381 00:14:59,473 --> 00:15:00,033 Speaker 1: is so 382 00:15:00,044 --> 00:15:01,273 Speaker 1: terrible. Yeah. 383 00:15:01,283 --> 00:15:02,314 Speaker 2: So we call this the grinch 384 00:15:02,323 --> 00:15:03,593 Speaker 1: employers. My goodness. 385 00:15:03,604 --> 00:15:05,453 Speaker 1: Me, that is really terrible. 386 00:15:05,583 --> 00:15:08,393 Speaker 2: Yeah. So these retrenchment exercises are the hardest to carry 387 00:15:08,403 --> 00:15:11,124 Speaker 2: out because then you have to really craft the messaging 388 00:15:11,133 --> 00:15:13,164 Speaker 2: to the employees very carefully because, you know, at a 389 00:15:13,174 --> 00:15:15,343 Speaker 2: town hall there may be a riot because people are 390 00:15:15,354 --> 00:15:18,254 Speaker 2: knowing they are going to be spending the holidays, Christmas 391 00:15:18,533 --> 00:15:20,604 Speaker 2: New Year's, even possibly Chinese New Year if it's early 392 00:15:20,614 --> 00:15:22,023 Speaker 2: on in the year unemployed. 393 00:15:22,177 --> 00:15:24,357 Speaker 2: So it's something that's very difficult and worse. Still. I 394 00:15:24,367 --> 00:15:26,398 Speaker 2: have cases where some of my clients initially did not 395 00:15:26,408 --> 00:15:28,718 Speaker 2: want to pay them anything because the first question I 396 00:15:28,728 --> 00:15:30,778 Speaker 2: always get when it comes to a retrenchment is expenses 397 00:15:30,788 --> 00:15:33,177 Speaker 2: under Singapore law. Am I legally obliged to pay them 398 00:15:33,187 --> 00:15:34,377 Speaker 2: any retrenchment benefit? 399 00:15:34,388 --> 00:15:35,197 Speaker 1: But you are right. 400 00:15:35,208 --> 00:15:37,288 Speaker 2: The answer is you are encouraged to but you're not 401 00:15:37,297 --> 00:15:38,187 Speaker 2: obliged to. So you 402 00:15:38,197 --> 00:15:40,338 Speaker 1: don't have to pay them retrenchment benefits legally. 403 00:15:40,348 --> 00:15:44,038 Speaker 2: No. So the tripartite advisory strongly encourages employees to pay 404 00:15:44,047 --> 00:15:46,218 Speaker 2: 2 to 4 weeks salary per year of service. 405 00:15:46,228 --> 00:15:46,838 Speaker 1: Ok. Strong 406 00:15:47,041 --> 00:15:47,781 Speaker 1: encourage. 407 00:15:47,791 --> 00:15:48,021 Speaker 2: But 408 00:15:48,031 --> 00:15:50,401 Speaker 2: technically if you choose not to, you can't be fine, 409 00:15:50,411 --> 00:15:52,142 Speaker 2: you can't be jail and your employees can't bring you 410 00:15:52,151 --> 00:15:52,541 Speaker 2: to court 411 00:15:52,552 --> 00:15:52,932 Speaker 1: unless 412 00:15:52,942 --> 00:15:54,941 Speaker 1: you are unionized, then your union can fight 413 00:15:54,952 --> 00:15:55,661 Speaker 1: for you. Correct? 414 00:15:55,671 --> 00:15:58,242 Speaker 2: Because if you are unionized retrenchment benefits are usually something 415 00:15:58,252 --> 00:16:00,932 Speaker 2: that will be set out in the collective agreement. Ok? 416 00:16:00,942 --> 00:16:03,151 Speaker 2: But most employees will then have to rely on what 417 00:16:03,161 --> 00:16:05,721 Speaker 2: the contract says. If your employment contract or employee handbook 418 00:16:05,731 --> 00:16:08,942 Speaker 2: provides for a retrenchment benefit to be paid, then yes, 419 00:16:08,952 --> 00:16:11,101 Speaker 2: you will get it. But otherwise, no. So there was 420 00:16:11,111 --> 00:16:11,601 Speaker 2: this case where 421 00:16:11,666 --> 00:16:13,846 Speaker 2: my client asked me need to pay or not. Then 422 00:16:13,856 --> 00:16:16,156 Speaker 2: my answer was strictly speaking. No, they say, but you 423 00:16:16,166 --> 00:16:18,075 Speaker 2: should pay because da da, da, da da because you 424 00:16:18,085 --> 00:16:20,455 Speaker 2: are a good human. But they listening stop after you 425 00:16:20,466 --> 00:16:21,216 Speaker 2: don't need to pay it. 426 00:16:22,005 --> 00:16:23,806 Speaker 1: Yeah, because ok, but to be fair to them, they 427 00:16:23,815 --> 00:16:25,695 Speaker 1: are also at that point where they are already at 428 00:16:25,705 --> 00:16:26,616 Speaker 1: wits end already, 429 00:16:26,625 --> 00:16:28,575 Speaker 2: right? But this is where I will assess with the client. 430 00:16:28,585 --> 00:16:31,676 Speaker 2: Are you retrenching because of cost cutting or because of redundancy? 431 00:16:31,685 --> 00:16:33,745 Speaker 2: Because if it's cost cutting, then I have nothing to say, right? 432 00:16:33,755 --> 00:16:35,536 Speaker 2: You may not have the funds. But that case was 433 00:16:35,546 --> 00:16:36,286 Speaker 2: a redundancy. 434 00:16:36,559 --> 00:16:38,950 Speaker 2: And the retrenchment list included people who had been with 435 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,979 Speaker 2: the company for 20 to 30 years. So I told management, 436 00:16:41,989 --> 00:16:44,429 Speaker 2: I said, look, these people have been with you probably 437 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:46,299 Speaker 2: half their life or even more than half their lives. 438 00:16:46,340 --> 00:16:48,799 Speaker 2: How can you let them go without anything? But they say, oh, 439 00:16:48,809 --> 00:16:50,859 Speaker 2: it's a business decision. So this is what I said 440 00:16:50,869 --> 00:16:52,109 Speaker 2: to them. I said, ok, let me help 441 00:16:52,184 --> 00:16:55,385 Speaker 2: you make a business decision if you don't pay them anything, right? 442 00:16:55,395 --> 00:16:57,984 Speaker 2: You are legally entitled to not pay them anything. But 443 00:16:57,994 --> 00:16:59,575 Speaker 2: when they go back to their friends and family, what 444 00:16:59,585 --> 00:17:01,414 Speaker 2: do you think they will say about the company? They 445 00:17:01,424 --> 00:17:03,125 Speaker 2: will be upset and the message that will get up 446 00:17:03,135 --> 00:17:05,885 Speaker 2: will be negative and then people will take to social media, 447 00:17:05,895 --> 00:17:07,724 Speaker 2: the press may pick up on it and things like that. 448 00:17:08,005 --> 00:17:10,344 Speaker 2: But if you choose to pay them something in recognition 449 00:17:10,354 --> 00:17:12,063 Speaker 2: of all the years of service that they have given 450 00:17:12,074 --> 00:17:14,055 Speaker 2: you when they go out, some of them might actually 451 00:17:14,064 --> 00:17:16,343 Speaker 2: go back and say, I understand that the company had 452 00:17:16,354 --> 00:17:17,724 Speaker 2: to make a tough decision, but 453 00:17:17,939 --> 00:17:20,438 Speaker 2: the company took care of me and that's the closure 454 00:17:20,449 --> 00:17:22,989 Speaker 2: that they get and that is positive pr for you, right? 455 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:24,979 Speaker 2: So think of it that way and eventually they accepted 456 00:17:24,989 --> 00:17:27,500 Speaker 2: my recommendation to pay something, which I was glad about 457 00:17:27,750 --> 00:17:30,099 Speaker 2: because I really felt for these employees that were letting 458 00:17:30,109 --> 00:17:31,448 Speaker 2: go after so many years of service. 459 00:17:31,459 --> 00:17:32,010 Speaker 1: Ok. So these 460 00:17:32,020 --> 00:17:34,579 Speaker 1: are what we call the grinch employers, right? So if 461 00:17:34,589 --> 00:17:36,649 Speaker 1: there are employers that, ok, they have already come to 462 00:17:36,660 --> 00:17:39,129 Speaker 1: this stage where they don't have a choice, they, you know, 463 00:17:39,140 --> 00:17:41,939 Speaker 1: will have to let go of some stuff, but then 464 00:17:41,949 --> 00:17:43,479 Speaker 1: they want to do something better for 465 00:17:43,555 --> 00:17:47,045 Speaker 1: they offer like a voluntary retrenchment package. So if I 466 00:17:47,055 --> 00:17:50,724 Speaker 1: am offered something like this, what should my considerations be 467 00:17:50,734 --> 00:17:51,655 Speaker 1: before I take 468 00:17:51,665 --> 00:17:51,875 Speaker 1: it up 469 00:17:51,885 --> 00:17:54,764 Speaker 2: first and foremost? What employees should do which a lot 470 00:17:54,775 --> 00:17:56,795 Speaker 2: of employees don't, is to first go and check. What 471 00:17:56,805 --> 00:17:59,275 Speaker 2: is my contractual entitlement to retrenchment benefit? 472 00:17:59,530 --> 00:18:01,899 Speaker 2: A lot of employees. Unfortunately, the moment they sign the 473 00:18:01,910 --> 00:18:04,069 Speaker 2: employment contract, they don't look at it ever again until 474 00:18:04,079 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 2: the day that they have to leave the company and 475 00:18:06,290 --> 00:18:07,790 Speaker 2: things like that. So I think the first thing that 476 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:09,250 Speaker 2: someone should do is to go and see, ok, what 477 00:18:09,260 --> 00:18:11,909 Speaker 2: is the entitlement that I'm getting? Because it may be 478 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:13,430 Speaker 2: a contract that you signed 10 years ago and the 479 00:18:13,439 --> 00:18:15,649 Speaker 2: company may be offering you less than what your contract 480 00:18:15,660 --> 00:18:17,669 Speaker 2: says because maybe they forgotten about it or 481 00:18:18,130 --> 00:18:20,430 Speaker 2: they are basing on the new contract. For example, if 482 00:18:20,439 --> 00:18:22,380 Speaker 2: you're being offered is less than what you're entitled to, 483 00:18:22,390 --> 00:18:24,060 Speaker 2: then that's something that you should raise. But if your 484 00:18:24,069 --> 00:18:26,869 Speaker 2: contract doesn't entitle you to anything, right? Then the starting 485 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,050 Speaker 2: point is whatever the company is offering you is better 486 00:18:29,060 --> 00:18:31,319 Speaker 2: than your status quo. That doesn't mean that there's no 487 00:18:31,329 --> 00:18:34,069 Speaker 2: room for negotiation because at the end of the day, 488 00:18:34,079 --> 00:18:37,020 Speaker 2: why do employers offer you something for two reasons? Mainly 489 00:18:37,030 --> 00:18:40,079 Speaker 2: one is because they are good human beings. Ok. But 490 00:18:40,089 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 2: also number two, because they are trying to mitigate any 491 00:18:42,770 --> 00:18:45,010 Speaker 2: risk of litigation later on so that you won't come 492 00:18:45,020 --> 00:18:46,349 Speaker 2: after them with a claim and all that. 493 00:18:46,619 --> 00:18:48,839 Speaker 2: So if a company is going to offer you 500 bucks, 494 00:18:48,849 --> 00:18:50,989 Speaker 2: I would say that may be inflammatory and insulting to 495 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 2: the employee that will only serve to provoke them even more. True. Right? 496 00:18:54,369 --> 00:18:56,329 Speaker 2: But if you want to offer something decent, at least 497 00:18:56,339 --> 00:18:58,420 Speaker 2: in line with the advisory and then after that, get 498 00:18:58,430 --> 00:19:00,319 Speaker 2: the employee to sign a waiver, so that, that they 499 00:19:00,329 --> 00:19:02,639 Speaker 2: won't come after you that I'm accepting this package and 500 00:19:02,650 --> 00:19:05,329 Speaker 2: I won't come after the company later on. So employees 501 00:19:05,339 --> 00:19:07,770 Speaker 2: would also know that in a sense there is something 502 00:19:07,780 --> 00:19:09,479 Speaker 2: that they are bringing to the table also. 503 00:19:09,489 --> 00:19:09,540 Speaker 1: I 504 00:19:09,619 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: see. Ok, 505 00:19:10,459 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: so they have a say in this, they don't feel 506 00:19:12,770 --> 00:19:15,198 Speaker 1: that they are just left to sign on the dotted 507 00:19:15,209 --> 00:19:16,469 Speaker 1: line and then you 508 00:19:16,479 --> 00:19:17,339 Speaker 1: know, leave. So 509 00:19:17,349 --> 00:19:19,869 Speaker 2: if you think that your company will be open to negotiation, 510 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:21,468 Speaker 2: I would say, don't be afraid, just go for it. 511 00:19:21,479 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 2: I mean, there's no harm in asking. Of course, some 512 00:19:24,050 --> 00:19:26,069 Speaker 2: employers may be one of those that will say, ok, 513 00:19:26,079 --> 00:19:28,349 Speaker 2: I give you 12 hours to decide otherwise I'm pulling 514 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:30,290 Speaker 2: the offer, right. But even then even if you are 515 00:19:30,300 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 2: given 12 hours, don't panic, at least see if you 516 00:19:32,770 --> 00:19:34,189 Speaker 2: can push it a little bit more. 517 00:19:34,550 --> 00:19:36,938 Speaker 2: And of course, it would help employees when you are 518 00:19:36,949 --> 00:19:40,129 Speaker 2: negotiating for a higher retrenchment package to give some reasons 519 00:19:40,140 --> 00:19:42,790 Speaker 2: why you should be recognized with a higher package. Of course, 520 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,329 Speaker 2: if you just ask, I want more, then the employer 521 00:19:45,339 --> 00:19:48,650 Speaker 2: will say why. So employees also need to be prepared 522 00:19:48,660 --> 00:19:50,770 Speaker 2: to come to the table with some reasons as to 523 00:19:50,780 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 2: why the company should rethink what they are offering them. 524 00:19:53,339 --> 00:19:53,599 Speaker 1: Let's 525 00:19:53,609 --> 00:19:56,609 Speaker 1: come back full circle. So let's say I've identified that 526 00:19:56,713 --> 00:19:58,922 Speaker 1: some of these signs and it's been going on for 527 00:19:58,932 --> 00:20:02,223 Speaker 1: a few months, but I am not sure. So what 528 00:20:02,233 --> 00:20:03,692 Speaker 1: should I do at that point of time? Should I 529 00:20:03,703 --> 00:20:06,953 Speaker 1: speak to my hr partner? Because how open will they 530 00:20:06,963 --> 00:20:08,792 Speaker 1: be to us? We talked a little bit about that 531 00:20:08,912 --> 00:20:10,623 Speaker 1: or should I lawyer up quickly? What 532 00:20:10,633 --> 00:20:11,743 Speaker 1: should I do? Ok. 533 00:20:11,811 --> 00:20:13,571 Speaker 2: I will say number one don't be quick to believe 534 00:20:13,583 --> 00:20:16,392 Speaker 2: rumors because a lot of the time employees pick up 535 00:20:16,402 --> 00:20:18,672 Speaker 2: on a potential retrenchment because of what the person needs 536 00:20:18,682 --> 00:20:18,821 Speaker 2: to do 537 00:20:18,875 --> 00:20:20,436 Speaker 2: and say who heard it from the person next to 538 00:20:20,446 --> 00:20:22,426 Speaker 2: them and so on and so forth. So I think 539 00:20:22,436 --> 00:20:24,965 Speaker 2: the first thing to do would be to verify the information, right? 540 00:20:25,244 --> 00:20:27,656 Speaker 2: To check the sources of the information. Ok. Ok. Right. 541 00:20:27,666 --> 00:20:29,754 Speaker 2: Is it something that someone heard directly from their boss 542 00:20:29,765 --> 00:20:32,375 Speaker 2: from hr or is it just something that someone deduced 543 00:20:32,385 --> 00:20:35,156 Speaker 2: based on science that they saw? Right. That's important because 544 00:20:35,166 --> 00:20:37,446 Speaker 2: we don't want people panicking for nothing. And then if 545 00:20:37,455 --> 00:20:39,156 Speaker 2: the person were to go to hr that might turn 546 00:20:39,166 --> 00:20:40,895 Speaker 2: out to be an awkward conversation as well. 547 00:20:41,239 --> 00:20:43,459 Speaker 2: But assuming there's reason to believe that there is a 548 00:20:43,469 --> 00:20:46,219 Speaker 2: retrenchment looming, then the first person to check with is 549 00:20:46,229 --> 00:20:48,569 Speaker 2: your boss. And if not hr funny enough, sometimes when 550 00:20:48,579 --> 00:20:50,198 Speaker 2: you check with your boss your boss might have no 551 00:20:50,209 --> 00:20:50,839 Speaker 2: idea as well. 552 00:20:50,849 --> 00:20:51,280 Speaker 1: I was going 553 00:20:51,290 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: to say some bosses might go. I am not sure 554 00:20:53,010 --> 00:20:55,319 Speaker 1: as well. Nobody said anything to me even they knew 555 00:20:55,329 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: they would still deny. I cannot confirm or deny 556 00:20:57,170 --> 00:21:00,489 Speaker 2: this rumor that management made their sign. Nd A. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. 557 00:21:00,500 --> 00:21:02,459 Speaker 2: But I suppose at that point in time I will 558 00:21:02,469 --> 00:21:03,390 Speaker 2: assume that in every case 559 00:21:03,586 --> 00:21:05,946 Speaker 2: like that there is no clear information, no one's going 560 00:21:05,955 --> 00:21:08,135 Speaker 2: to be saying anything. So I think that the first 561 00:21:08,145 --> 00:21:10,796 Speaker 2: thing that someone should do practically is to perhaps start 562 00:21:10,806 --> 00:21:13,066 Speaker 2: looking at the CV. I say that from a practical 563 00:21:13,076 --> 00:21:16,215 Speaker 2: point of view because from my personal experience, people take 564 00:21:16,225 --> 00:21:17,936 Speaker 2: a lot of time to redo their CV, that they 565 00:21:17,946 --> 00:21:20,086 Speaker 2: may not have done for a few years and all that. Right. 566 00:21:20,095 --> 00:21:21,936 Speaker 2: So at least when you need it, you can hit 567 00:21:21,946 --> 00:21:23,546 Speaker 2: the ground running with your CV. You can reach out 568 00:21:23,556 --> 00:21:25,615 Speaker 2: to recruiters or you can start applying for jobs. 569 00:21:25,751 --> 00:21:27,612 Speaker 2: Ok. Right. And I suppose the other thing to do 570 00:21:27,621 --> 00:21:29,650 Speaker 2: is to at the same time try and get as 571 00:21:29,661 --> 00:21:32,871 Speaker 2: much information from your boss or hr as possible. Right. 572 00:21:32,881 --> 00:21:34,732 Speaker 2: They may not be telling you anything, but I suppose 573 00:21:34,802 --> 00:21:37,371 Speaker 2: you can get enough information to put two and two together. 574 00:21:37,381 --> 00:21:39,151 Speaker 2: But at the end of the day when it comes 575 00:21:39,161 --> 00:21:43,312 Speaker 2: to retrenchments, different employees have different perspectives, some employees, if 576 00:21:43,321 --> 00:21:45,501 Speaker 2: they feel that even if there's no retrenchment going on 577 00:21:45,511 --> 00:21:47,202 Speaker 2: the fact that the company is doing all these cost 578 00:21:47,212 --> 00:21:47,851 Speaker 2: cutting measures. 579 00:21:48,130 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 2: I don't have a future with this company. They may 580 00:21:49,930 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 2: choose to leave. But there are also employees that despite 581 00:21:52,770 --> 00:21:54,790 Speaker 2: all these signs because they've been here for so long, 582 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:56,869 Speaker 2: I want to continue working. I would say to these 583 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,208 Speaker 2: employees who are prepared to stay on. Don't let the 584 00:21:59,219 --> 00:22:01,709 Speaker 2: rumors of a retrenchment change how you do your work. 585 00:22:01,719 --> 00:22:04,069 Speaker 2: Because at the end of the day, we are all professionals. 586 00:22:04,079 --> 00:22:06,389 Speaker 2: You don't want your behavior to change just because of 587 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:07,619 Speaker 2: some rumors, then they may undermine 588 00:22:07,734 --> 00:22:10,314 Speaker 2: you later on whether or not there's a retrenchment only 589 00:22:10,324 --> 00:22:12,915 Speaker 2: when there is an official announcement of a retrenchment, then 590 00:22:12,925 --> 00:22:15,185 Speaker 2: perhaps you can start taking the steps that you think 591 00:22:15,194 --> 00:22:16,925 Speaker 2: that you need to take if your plan is to 592 00:22:16,935 --> 00:22:18,204 Speaker 2: stay on with the company. Anyway, 593 00:22:18,214 --> 00:22:18,604 Speaker 1: I agree 594 00:22:18,614 --> 00:22:20,765 Speaker 1: what Francis said, this thing about looking at the CV. 595 00:22:20,775 --> 00:22:23,784 Speaker 1: It's important for us to always take stock. I won't 596 00:22:23,795 --> 00:22:25,844 Speaker 1: even say as a career councilor take stock only when 597 00:22:25,854 --> 00:22:27,125 Speaker 1: you see the signs but 598 00:22:27,319 --> 00:22:30,170 Speaker 1: take stock all the time. Yeah, of personally whether this company, 599 00:22:30,180 --> 00:22:32,510 Speaker 1: how's your performance in the company? Are you satisfied with 600 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,349 Speaker 1: the work there? Do you see yourself staying with the company? 601 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,180 Speaker 1: All these are fundamental questions that we have to decide 602 00:22:38,189 --> 00:22:40,458 Speaker 1: for ourselves and then if we start to see the 603 00:22:40,469 --> 00:22:42,959 Speaker 1: signs happening, then we start to wonder like, OK, do 604 00:22:42,969 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 1: I really want to stay if today, you feel like 605 00:22:44,930 --> 00:22:46,819 Speaker 1: this is a great company that been good to you. 606 00:22:46,829 --> 00:22:48,900 Speaker 1: You want to also chip in your share to write 607 00:22:48,910 --> 00:22:50,060 Speaker 1: out the storm together with them, 608 00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:52,728 Speaker 1: then do it. But if not, then you have to 609 00:22:52,739 --> 00:22:54,859 Speaker 1: really start to look out. Ok. What are the other 610 00:22:54,869 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 1: roles that would be suitable for me? Could be even 611 00:22:57,170 --> 00:22:58,810 Speaker 1: the same company because sometimes it's one side of the 612 00:22:58,819 --> 00:23:01,310 Speaker 1: company is cutting and it's another side or a company 613 00:23:01,319 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 1: that is still growing. And you might want to say, 614 00:23:03,130 --> 00:23:05,979 Speaker 1: how might I want to pivot across? Can I ask 615 00:23:05,989 --> 00:23:09,420 Speaker 1: for transfers such as some competitions going or maybe even 616 00:23:09,430 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: look entirely 617 00:23:10,130 --> 00:23:13,290 Speaker 1: outside right into the competitors or even other industries? I 618 00:23:13,300 --> 00:23:15,520 Speaker 1: always tell people right in the past, retrenchment is something 619 00:23:15,530 --> 00:23:18,079 Speaker 1: that we feel we cannot control. And until today it 620 00:23:18,089 --> 00:23:19,489 Speaker 1: is still the same thing we can't control, we can't 621 00:23:19,500 --> 00:23:21,050 Speaker 1: predict it as well. But what we can do is 622 00:23:21,060 --> 00:23:22,900 Speaker 1: we can take care of ourselves. We should take care 623 00:23:22,910 --> 00:23:25,089 Speaker 1: of ourselves a lot more by being more proactive in 624 00:23:25,099 --> 00:23:25,790 Speaker 1: terms of our career 625 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:26,500 Speaker 1: management. 626 00:23:26,510 --> 00:23:28,609 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think also compared to the past, I 627 00:23:28,619 --> 00:23:29,869 Speaker 2: don't think retrenchment, 628 00:23:30,109 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 2: it is still a negative experience for one to go through. 629 00:23:32,410 --> 00:23:35,010 Speaker 2: I don't think it carries as much negative connotations as 630 00:23:35,020 --> 00:23:37,410 Speaker 2: it did in the past. So I think what Jared 631 00:23:37,420 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 2: said is important that to take stock and also not 632 00:23:39,650 --> 00:23:41,260 Speaker 2: to take a knee jerk reaction and to jump off 633 00:23:41,270 --> 00:23:43,909 Speaker 2: the ship, the moment you think something is happening because 634 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:45,699 Speaker 2: let's say you were to stay on and a retrenchment 635 00:23:45,709 --> 00:23:48,140 Speaker 2: did happen, right? If you had left early, then there's 636 00:23:48,150 --> 00:23:51,170 Speaker 2: no chance of you getting a retrenchment package, that's number 637 00:23:51,180 --> 00:23:53,579 Speaker 2: one and number two because you are being retrenched. At 638 00:23:53,589 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 2: that point in time, most companies will be more prepared 639 00:23:55,770 --> 00:23:57,449 Speaker 2: to write a positive reference for you, 640 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,069 Speaker 2: right? As opposed to if you left without any word 641 00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:02,780 Speaker 2: or warning before anything was even announced. So there are 642 00:24:02,790 --> 00:24:04,270 Speaker 2: still silver linings, I would say, 643 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:04,939 Speaker 1: yeah, I 644 00:24:04,949 --> 00:24:08,579 Speaker 1: know a friend who went through voluntary retrenchment and he 645 00:24:08,589 --> 00:24:11,020 Speaker 1: took his sum of money and he started his own 646 00:24:11,030 --> 00:24:13,739 Speaker 1: business and I was like, wow, what a great opportunity. 647 00:24:13,750 --> 00:24:15,198 Speaker 1: But of course, I asked him for his thought process 648 00:24:15,209 --> 00:24:15,829 Speaker 1: and he said that 649 00:24:16,150 --> 00:24:18,380 Speaker 1: he considered what he was doing. He enjoyed his work 650 00:24:18,390 --> 00:24:20,829 Speaker 1: for the last 1520 years, but he felt like, you know, 651 00:24:20,839 --> 00:24:22,739 Speaker 1: I want to do something else. Yeah. And now he 652 00:24:22,750 --> 00:24:24,819 Speaker 1: has capital. Yeah, he has capital. He used it as 653 00:24:24,829 --> 00:24:26,869 Speaker 1: a start up and then he started to create a 654 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,890 Speaker 1: little business in the sports industry and it's off. So 655 00:24:29,939 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: sometimes situations like this can give birth to new beginnings. Yeah. 656 00:24:33,500 --> 00:24:35,629 Speaker 1: So yeah, thank you so much Francis for coming in 657 00:24:35,675 --> 00:24:38,295 Speaker 1: and really making it so clear for us to see 658 00:24:38,305 --> 00:24:41,535 Speaker 1: and also stop any sort of fear mongering or people 659 00:24:41,545 --> 00:24:44,694 Speaker 1: who worry that, ok, like the headless chicken. It's coming, 660 00:24:44,704 --> 00:24:46,935 Speaker 1: it's coming. It's coming. Thank you so much for making 661 00:24:46,944 --> 00:24:49,234 Speaker 1: sure that we are approaching this with a very healthy 662 00:24:49,244 --> 00:24:53,045 Speaker 1: mindset and not fearing the unknown. So, yeah, thanks so 663 00:24:53,055 --> 00:24:53,675 Speaker 1: much for sharing your 664 00:24:53,685 --> 00:24:54,185 Speaker 1: insight. 665 00:24:54,194 --> 00:24:55,054 Speaker 2: Thank you so much. 666 00:24:59,079 --> 00:25:01,900 Speaker 1: Hi. Welcome back. We hope you have been enjoying our 667 00:25:01,910 --> 00:25:06,099 Speaker 1: ask me anything segment so far. Now, today's question is 668 00:25:06,109 --> 00:25:09,579 Speaker 1: from our listener overloaded. The name alone makes my heart 669 00:25:09,589 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: go out to her. Honestly. 670 00:25:11,410 --> 00:25:15,050 Speaker 1: Overloaded says that she is a relatively new hire and 671 00:25:15,060 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: this is only her fourth month in the job, but 672 00:25:18,569 --> 00:25:22,609 Speaker 1: she says none of her work days are without ot 673 00:25:22,619 --> 00:25:26,599 Speaker 1: or overtime. Her boss keeps giving her new tasks and 674 00:25:26,609 --> 00:25:30,199 Speaker 1: says that she's trying to find a suitable salesperson to assist, 675 00:25:30,209 --> 00:25:31,099 Speaker 1: overload it. 676 00:25:31,420 --> 00:25:33,599 Speaker 1: The stress she says is already starting to take a 677 00:25:33,609 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: toll on her health and when her boss sees that 678 00:25:36,130 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: she is unwell. Listen to this, the boss tells her 679 00:25:38,650 --> 00:25:41,810 Speaker 1: to instead work from home, not rest from home. So 680 00:25:41,819 --> 00:25:44,629 Speaker 1: overloaded wants to know, how do I put it in 681 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,500 Speaker 1: a nice way to tell my boss that this is 682 00:25:47,510 --> 00:25:51,069 Speaker 1: the maximum I can handle for. Now. Very relatable. Most 683 00:25:51,079 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 1: people think just quit, just quit and just change the 684 00:25:53,650 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 1: situation 685 00:25:54,369 --> 00:25:57,030 Speaker 1: away from this horrible boss, right? But Tiffany maybe we 686 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,150 Speaker 1: can look deeper into this. Yeah, let's have a discussion 687 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:03,479 Speaker 1: about overloaded situation since it's so relatable. If today you 688 00:26:03,489 --> 00:26:06,630 Speaker 1: are in overloaded shoes, right? What would you recommend to do. So, 689 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:08,260 Speaker 1: the first thing I would say is that overload is 690 00:26:08,270 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: too kind, be firm and say sorry, I can't do it. 691 00:26:12,459 --> 00:26:15,030 Speaker 1: I mean, what's the boss going to do? Right. Fire you. 692 00:26:15,060 --> 00:26:17,189 Speaker 1: She hasn't found another person to replace you. 693 00:26:17,489 --> 00:26:21,420 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's ok. I feel to not fix the problem. 694 00:26:21,430 --> 00:26:23,379 Speaker 1: We talked about it also in the burnout episode, a 695 00:26:23,390 --> 00:26:25,689 Speaker 1: lot of us want to try and help our boss 696 00:26:25,699 --> 00:26:29,500 Speaker 1: to solve their problem, right? But the problem is if 697 00:26:29,510 --> 00:26:32,739 Speaker 1: we keep plugging the holes, your boss will not know 698 00:26:32,750 --> 00:26:34,959 Speaker 1: there is a hole to even begin with. So there's 699 00:26:34,969 --> 00:26:37,540 Speaker 1: no need. Honestly, I feel to be your boss's solution. 700 00:26:37,550 --> 00:26:39,579 Speaker 1: That's what your boss is there for. Your boss says 701 00:26:39,589 --> 00:26:41,550 Speaker 1: that she's going to help you to find a suitable 702 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:42,310 Speaker 1: sales assistant. 703 00:26:42,609 --> 00:26:45,430 Speaker 1: Let them find somebody else and maybe sometimes they just 704 00:26:45,439 --> 00:26:47,209 Speaker 1: have to be a bit quicker if they realize that 705 00:26:47,219 --> 00:26:50,050 Speaker 1: you cannot handle the task. So perhaps your boss might 706 00:26:50,060 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: be stalling on finding extra help because you are plugging 707 00:26:54,130 --> 00:26:57,229 Speaker 1: the hole for them. Ok? Yeah. So because overloaded keeps 708 00:26:57,239 --> 00:26:59,929 Speaker 1: trying to meet all the expectations. The boss says that 709 00:26:59,939 --> 00:27:03,389 Speaker 1: there's no need to hire someone and just delay and delay. Ok. 710 00:27:03,439 --> 00:27:04,030 Speaker 1: So we kind of 711 00:27:04,113 --> 00:27:07,272 Speaker 1: agree that overloaded should not continue down this track. Yes, 712 00:27:07,282 --> 00:27:10,083 Speaker 1: that overloaded needs to stop plugging the gaps and overloaded. 713 00:27:10,093 --> 00:27:12,592 Speaker 1: Somehow needs to tell the boss somehow how she tells. 714 00:27:12,603 --> 00:27:14,213 Speaker 1: I think we can talk about that later. But I 715 00:27:14,223 --> 00:27:16,772 Speaker 1: think the premise is that she needs to say something. 716 00:27:16,821 --> 00:27:18,762 Speaker 1: I agree with that because there are limits to all 717 00:27:18,772 --> 00:27:21,442 Speaker 1: of us. And if it affects your health, don't joke 718 00:27:21,453 --> 00:27:23,652 Speaker 1: with it, don't joke with it because it's not worth 719 00:27:23,662 --> 00:27:25,532 Speaker 1: it when you are sick in bed. Right. And, 720 00:27:25,615 --> 00:27:28,375 Speaker 1: and you're constantly worrying about, like, has the work been completed? 721 00:27:28,484 --> 00:27:31,244 Speaker 1: I think that's not worthwhile. You're not paid enough to 722 00:27:31,255 --> 00:27:33,375 Speaker 1: go through that kind of anguish. I think the best 723 00:27:33,385 --> 00:27:35,556 Speaker 1: advice other people have ever given me before is to 724 00:27:35,566 --> 00:27:39,816 Speaker 1: never see yourself as indispensable. Anyone is dispensable in this job, 725 00:27:39,826 --> 00:27:42,465 Speaker 1: which means that you are not the most important person 726 00:27:42,475 --> 00:27:45,316 Speaker 1: in this team. Yeah. So Tiffany, if today you are 727 00:27:45,326 --> 00:27:47,035 Speaker 1: now overloaded, boss, then 728 00:27:47,369 --> 00:27:50,670 Speaker 1: you have to have this conversation with overloaded. How would 729 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,520 Speaker 1: you want overloaded to tell you so that you would 730 00:27:53,530 --> 00:27:57,699 Speaker 1: listen and you will be more open to take the suggestions. Ok. Honestly, 731 00:27:57,709 --> 00:28:00,708 Speaker 1: I would like them to be very transparent with me. 732 00:28:00,780 --> 00:28:03,780 Speaker 1: I think all bosses like every human being, we have 733 00:28:03,790 --> 00:28:06,719 Speaker 1: our own blind spots, you and I included, right? 734 00:28:07,030 --> 00:28:10,510 Speaker 1: So especially people who are very driven by their goals. 735 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,770 Speaker 1: They tend to forget the people along the way or 736 00:28:13,780 --> 00:28:16,729 Speaker 1: the processes because they are just focused on the end goal. 737 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,130 Speaker 1: I think a lot of bosses would appreciate it if 738 00:28:19,140 --> 00:28:21,229 Speaker 1: you can help to point out some of their blind spots. 739 00:28:21,239 --> 00:28:24,169 Speaker 1: But of course, in a nice way, right. Let's talk 740 00:28:24,180 --> 00:28:24,569 Speaker 1: about how, 741 00:28:24,645 --> 00:28:26,655 Speaker 1: how we can talk to our boss about it. So 742 00:28:26,665 --> 00:28:29,344 Speaker 1: find a good opportunity, maybe something a bit more casual, 743 00:28:29,354 --> 00:28:31,364 Speaker 1: less confrontational. And I say, can I have a quick 744 00:28:31,375 --> 00:28:34,385 Speaker 1: word with you? Then I would do the sandwich method, 745 00:28:34,494 --> 00:28:37,214 Speaker 1: I will layer it so I start with the good. 746 00:28:37,224 --> 00:28:39,185 Speaker 1: So I will say thank you so much for acknowledging 747 00:28:39,194 --> 00:28:42,185 Speaker 1: my strengths. I remind them why I'm at an asset 748 00:28:42,469 --> 00:28:44,449 Speaker 1: and then I will go down to the next layer, 749 00:28:44,459 --> 00:28:46,219 Speaker 1: which is the bed the meat of it. I will 750 00:28:46,229 --> 00:28:48,609 Speaker 1: give the feedback. I will say this is how I'm 751 00:28:48,619 --> 00:28:52,250 Speaker 1: feeling right now. OK, I'm tired. It's affecting my health. 752 00:28:52,260 --> 00:28:54,849 Speaker 1: I haven't been having my own free time. 753 00:28:55,079 --> 00:28:57,410 Speaker 1: I will need a break. I will need some extra 754 00:28:57,420 --> 00:29:00,180 Speaker 1: help in that meat part. We move to the ask. 755 00:29:00,189 --> 00:29:03,229 Speaker 1: So ask the boss, when is this extra person coming? 756 00:29:03,369 --> 00:29:06,420 Speaker 1: And if not, is there any tasks that they have 757 00:29:06,430 --> 00:29:09,589 Speaker 1: listed for you? Anything that can be de prioritized? So 758 00:29:09,599 --> 00:29:13,180 Speaker 1: help me to prioritize right? Then the end, which is 759 00:29:13,189 --> 00:29:16,420 Speaker 1: I end with the good as well. So remember good, bad, good. 760 00:29:16,430 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 1: So I end with the good by saying, I know 761 00:29:17,930 --> 00:29:20,660 Speaker 1: it's not easy for you to find well replace, 762 00:29:21,199 --> 00:29:24,250 Speaker 1: but I'm aligned. We are aligned to achieve the same goals. 763 00:29:24,260 --> 00:29:26,569 Speaker 1: So I would still like to help you along the way. 764 00:29:26,579 --> 00:29:28,449 Speaker 1: I'll still be able to work hard. It's just that 765 00:29:28,459 --> 00:29:30,930 Speaker 1: I'm not able to do at the capacity you are 766 00:29:30,939 --> 00:29:32,890 Speaker 1: asking me to do. Yeah, I think what you just 767 00:29:32,900 --> 00:29:36,180 Speaker 1: articulated is a very constructive way. It's also a very 768 00:29:36,189 --> 00:29:39,099 Speaker 1: respectful manner of honoring your boss as well. But I 769 00:29:39,109 --> 00:29:41,790 Speaker 1: also feel like what you mentioned that's particularly important is 770 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,859 Speaker 1: the part about the resting from home versus working from 771 00:29:44,869 --> 00:29:46,369 Speaker 1: home when you're not. Well, I think 772 00:29:46,420 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: that's something that if today overloaded feels it's really crossing 773 00:29:50,290 --> 00:29:52,829 Speaker 1: a line, then maybe you might want to raise that 774 00:29:52,839 --> 00:29:55,619 Speaker 1: as a specific point to say that this thing is 775 00:29:55,630 --> 00:29:57,329 Speaker 1: a no, no. Like if today I'm not aware, right? 776 00:29:57,339 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 1: I really cannot work. I really feel affected that you're 777 00:30:00,050 --> 00:30:01,949 Speaker 1: asking me to still work. It shows that you don't 778 00:30:01,959 --> 00:30:04,310 Speaker 1: regard me as a person, you don't regard my safety 779 00:30:04,859 --> 00:30:07,329 Speaker 1: and it really makes me feel very discouraged. Yes. Right. 780 00:30:07,339 --> 00:30:09,239 Speaker 1: I think that's something that we can say. Yes. Yeah, 781 00:30:09,250 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 1: because there's a limit that shouldn't be crossed. Yes, I agree. 782 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:17,010 Speaker 1: So overloaded, please remember that your health is of utmost importance. 783 00:30:17,020 --> 00:30:19,670 Speaker 1: There's nothing else that is more important than your health. 784 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:19,900 Speaker 1: So 785 00:30:20,319 --> 00:30:23,729 Speaker 1: prioritize that and if need be draw very clear boundaries 786 00:30:23,739 --> 00:30:26,359 Speaker 1: with this boss of yours, don't worry, she or he 787 00:30:26,369 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: is paid enough to solve the rest of the problems 788 00:30:28,410 --> 00:30:31,329 Speaker 1: for you. If there are other questions that you have 789 00:30:31,339 --> 00:30:33,750 Speaker 1: like overloaded, you can write to us. We are at 790 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:37,359 Speaker 1: CN A podcasts at media corp.com dot SG. We are 791 00:30:37,369 --> 00:30:41,010 Speaker 1: also on Spotify Apple podcasts or youtube where a video 792 00:30:41,020 --> 00:30:42,630 Speaker 1: version of this is at 793 00:30:42,989 --> 00:30:45,760 Speaker 1: the team behind the work it podcast is Christina Robert 794 00:30:45,770 --> 00:30:49,180 Speaker 1: Joan Chan, Jai Johari Sa Wen and to Yan Yan 795 00:30:49,670 --> 00:30:53,209 Speaker 1: C mixing is by Carrie Lim. Video by Haida Amin. 796 00:30:53,219 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: I'm Jal and I'm Tiffany have a healthy and super 797 00:30:56,930 --> 00:30:58,030 Speaker 1: work week ahead.