Speaker 1: You're listening to a CNA podcast.
Speaker 1: The passport you hold is so important to your mobility,
Speaker 1: where you can travel, what visas you need, etc. What
Speaker 1: if you could just get a new one, buy a
Speaker 1: new one by helping another country out with their fight
Speaker 1: against climate change? It's happening. Today we look at why
Speaker 1: and where passports are being handed out in the face
Speaker 1: of climate calamity.
Speaker 1: Hello, welcome to Climate Conversations. I'm Jack Broadley. Link Tan
Speaker 1: is back for more. How's your week been? Hello,
Speaker 2: Jack. It's been spectacular. Thank you for asking. How has
Speaker 2: your week
Speaker 2: been?
Speaker 1: My week has been great. I've just been on holidays,
Speaker 1: so I'm pretty happy with that. Ready to go. Ready
Speaker 1: to get into today's topic. Now, have you heard of
Speaker 1: this before, this idea of golden passports?
Speaker 1: How keen would you be to have a little sneaky
Speaker 1: second passport in your hands?
Speaker 2: I don't think I'm allowed to talk about that, Jack.
Speaker 2: Singapore does not allow dual citizenship. It's illegal and a
Speaker 2: very bad thing to do. Can you
Speaker 1: get a government is not listening, don't worry, not listening.
Speaker 2: Um, what about you? Can you get a sneaky second
Speaker 2: passport in Australia?
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're allowed to have dual citizenship.
Speaker 1: And I actually am in the process of trying to
Speaker 1: get a second passport as we speak. So stay tuned,
Speaker 1: whether that is successful. Is that a golden passport? It's
Speaker 1: not a golden one. It's just a very regular one,
Speaker 1: and I'm not paying for it. But having a second passport, wow,
Speaker 1: it's super useful. Ops up the world for sure.
Speaker 1: OK, let's get into the quiz. Lee Ling, do you enjoy?
Speaker 1: Checking out those passport power rankings that seem to come
Speaker 1: out every year. Every time they come out makes a
Speaker 1: little headline. Do you look at those?
Speaker 2: Uh, no, not really. I mean, it's there, it's peripherally
Speaker 2: there because people talk about it and Singapore's passport is
Speaker 2: normally usually right up there in the top 5 or
Speaker 2: top 10 rankings, if not right at the top spot.
Speaker 2: Mm.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's why. I think it's just, it
Speaker 1: always pops up in, in our news every year because
Speaker 1: the Singapore passport's always staying so strong. OK, the question
Speaker 1: today isn't really climate related, but can you put these
Speaker 1: four countries' passports in order from the most to the
Speaker 1: least powerful, and this is based on.
Speaker 1: Global mobility caused by the passport index. Your four options, Singapore,
Speaker 1: of course, Australia, the UAE and Switzerland. I've got different
Speaker 1: continents covered there. What
Speaker 2: do you think? I remember Singapore, of course. Japan and
Speaker 2: South Korea were also, I think in the top 3 spots,
Speaker 2: but that's all I recall. I need to kind of
Speaker 2: go back into my memory bank. Have a
Speaker 1: think, and so we'll be at the end.
Speaker 1: And now for our main story this week. You might
Speaker 1: know about this, countries offering citizenship or residency in exchange
Speaker 1: for financial contributions. It's often called citizenship by investment, or CBIs.
Speaker 1: Now it's not new, countries have been doing this for
Speaker 1: a while. Go back to Saint Kitts and Nevis in 1984,
Speaker 1: small Caribbean nations searching for foreign capital shortly after it
Speaker 1: became independent.
Speaker 1: The country came up with a novel plan, offering citizenship
Speaker 1: in exchange for an investment or a donation to government
Speaker 1: funds or real estate projects. By the 2000s, it had
Speaker 1: become extremely popular as the United States and Canada, nearby countries,
Speaker 1: curbed some of their foreign immigration programs.
Speaker 1: It still functions today though as a CBI. Other countries
Speaker 1: tried it too. Most flamed out due to corruption, money laundering,
Speaker 1: a lack of transparency or public backlash. Look at Ireland, Tonga,
Speaker 1: the Marshall Islands. But today, these schemes continue. Increasingly, they're
Speaker 1: being used by small climate vulnerable nations desperate for help
Speaker 1: and finances.
Speaker 1: To fund their efforts to stave off the impacts of
Speaker 1: climate change.
Speaker 2: The most recent example we have, which I think is
Speaker 2: really interesting, is one of those small island nations you're
Speaker 2: talking about, Nauru. Now ask the average person to find
Speaker 2: it on a map, Nauru, and well, good luck. It's
Speaker 2: a tiny.
Speaker 1: I think I can find it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's because you're you and you look at maps as
Speaker 2: bedtime reading. So.
Speaker 2: It's a tiny phosphate rock plateau in the South Pacific,
Speaker 2: northwest of the Solomon Islands, and it too in the past,
Speaker 2: had a golden passport scheme that went badly awry.
Speaker 2: Now at one point in the 1990s it was handing
Speaker 2: out hundreds of passports, many to dodgy individuals from Russia
Speaker 2: and the Middle East. It became a money laundering issue,
Speaker 2: and when it was discovered, Nauru had sold passports to
Speaker 2: members of al Qaeda in the early 2000s. Well, the
Speaker 2: scheme stopped. Why are you laughing?
Speaker 1: Well, that seems like a good way to stop.
Speaker 1: Good reason to stop your scheme. You sold passports to
Speaker 1: al
Speaker 2: Qaeda. Yeah, bad idea. Now, you might recall that after that,
Speaker 2: Nauru then allowed its land to be used for a
Speaker 2: controversial immigration detention center under the management of your government.
Speaker 2: Now that reaped millions of dollars for the country. And
Speaker 2: then fast forward to today. Now, Nauru is back with
Speaker 2: a new plan. This time, linked to climate change.
Speaker 2: The country is extremely vulnerable to rising sea levels, no question,
Speaker 2: with minimal freshwater resources, highly degraded land due to decades
Speaker 2: of phosphate mining and limited food security. All of this
Speaker 2: leads to a real lack of economic options.
Speaker 1: I think it makes sense that they're looking for financing options.
Speaker 1: And that means getting your hands on a Nauru passport.
Speaker 1: So how much do we think that would cost? It's
Speaker 1: not cheap. The government says it will cost a minimum
Speaker 1: of $105,000 US dollars and certain criminals would be excluded
Speaker 1: this time.
Speaker 1: So then I have questions about who would pay for
Speaker 1: that and why would they do it. The benefits for
Speaker 1: an individual now with the Nauru passport is you get
Speaker 1: visa-free access to 89 countries, including the UK, including Hong Kong,
Speaker 1: the UAE and Singapore.
Speaker 1: So, these people who would invest in Nauru's scheme might
Speaker 1: not ever step on the country, but it does give
Speaker 1: them global access to other more strategic places for their
Speaker 1: lifestyle or their business ventures. Interesting, right? So,
Speaker 2: you can be a citizen of the country without ever
Speaker 2: having stepped foot there? OK. Well, yeah, sure. That's interesting.
Speaker 2: But, you know, a lot of this is about survival, right? So,
Speaker 2: that leads to what Nauru needs the money for. It
Speaker 2: plans to move 90% of the island's population of around
Speaker 2: 12,500 people and move them to higher ground.
Speaker 2: The problem in low lying Nauru is that decades of
Speaker 2: phosphate mining has made much of the interior of their
Speaker 2: islands uninhabitable, and that's pushed people to live close to
Speaker 2: the coast, which of course is being eroded by rising
Speaker 2: sea levels. So Nauru expects to make around $5.6 million
Speaker 2: from the program in its first year. It's aiming for
Speaker 2: about 500 applications and a total of $43 million and
Speaker 2: that would go along.
Speaker 2: Way to covering the cost of the mass relocations that
Speaker 2: it wants to conduct. Now, it's not the only country
Speaker 2: doing this. Others like Vanuatu, Dominica, and of course you
Speaker 2: mentioned Saint Kitts and Nevis earlier, and several others are
Speaker 2: doing it as well. And what do they all have
Speaker 2: in common? They're all small island developing states on the
Speaker 2: front lines of climate change.
Speaker 1: These countries clearly have a need for climate adaptation financing.
Speaker 1: It's a huge and growing problem for them.
Speaker 1: And the international financing for these types of things is
Speaker 1: stalled to some extent. And of course, we know that
Speaker 1: the US is no longer an active player in terms
Speaker 1: of climate funding. So, nations on the brink are watching
Speaker 1: the clock. They're getting more desperate, and you can hardly
Speaker 1: blame them, right? This is all about survival, as you said.
Speaker 1: I spent a few weeks in the Pacific region last year,
Speaker 1: not in Nauru, but other countries, Fiji, Kiribati.
Speaker 1: And Tuvalu, where you can really see firsthand the impacts
Speaker 1: of these rising sea levels. And Tuvalu is a country
Speaker 1: that is widely labeled, rightly or wrongly, the first country
Speaker 1: likely to disappear from climate change. So right now, it
Speaker 1: doesn't have a CBI, but these types of ideas have
Speaker 1: been discussed in the past. And debate rages on there
Speaker 1: around this notion of migration with dignity, like, moving an
Speaker 1: entire population somewhere else, like Australia for example.
Speaker 1: So that raises these existential questions about what it means
Speaker 1: to be a citizen of Tuvalu, to be a Tuvaluan.
Speaker 1: And I think that's something that's deeper, it's more soulful,
Speaker 1: and this notion of belonging to a place, regardless of
Speaker 1: what your passport says.
Speaker 1: So I have the questions about what we think about
Speaker 1: putting a price on sovereignty, essentially making belonging to a
Speaker 1: nation a commodity. And these are nations that sadly, potentially
Speaker 1: may not have a long future, given the way that
Speaker 1: the planet is heating
Speaker 1: up.
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, we're talking about life and death, right?
Speaker 2: And when you ask the question of survival over sovereignty,
Speaker 2: the choice, I think is quite a simple one to make,
Speaker 2: especially when there is no land left to self-govern.
Speaker 2: This is depressing talk, Jack.
Speaker 1: It is, but I can see, like, why the Nauru
Speaker 1: government wants to do this. Giving out 500 passports is
Speaker 1: essentially something they can do without really much impact on
Speaker 1: their own resources. Yet it gives them the money that
Speaker 1: they can't get from anywhere else to literally save their
Speaker 1: entire population, so.
Speaker 1: I can see it making sense whether these schemes work
Speaker 1: this time around, well, we'll wait and see, I guess.
Speaker 1: But you won't be getting one. That's, that's what we've established.
Speaker 2: No, no.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that Singapore you can't.
Speaker 2: You know, I had a Singaporean friend in Australia who
Speaker 2: had been holding two citizenships and then COVID happened, was
Speaker 2: required to get vaccinated, but his proof of vaccination was
Speaker 2: from Australia and it stated that he was a citizen
Speaker 2: there and so Singapore found out.
Speaker 2: And made him relinquish his Singapore citizenship.
Speaker 1: I have a friend who's Singaporean. Her parents were in Australia.
Speaker 1: She was born in Adelaide, got an Australian passport, never
Speaker 1: been a Singaporean, even though she's then like lived her
Speaker 1: whole life in Singapore, but it has an Australian passport. Strange.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so this golden passport thing could just change how
Speaker 2: a lot of things work as more countries start offering
Speaker 2: this or consider offering this as an option to finance
Speaker 2: their climate adaptation and mitigation strategies, right?
Speaker 2: So we'll see, we'll watch this space.
Speaker 1: I'll let you know if I get my second passport.
Speaker 2: It's
Speaker 1: not Nauru. That's, that's all I'll tell you.
Speaker 2: OK.
Speaker 1: OK, back to our quiz question. To repeat it, can
Speaker 1: you rank these passports by their power? And we have Singapore, Australia,
Speaker 1: the UAE, and Switzerland.
Speaker 2: OK, I think Singapore, obviously at the top. I remember
Speaker 2: seeing Switzerland on the list, and it, it, Switzerland has
Speaker 2: historically been included, of course, among the top spots. So Singapore, Switzerland.
Speaker 2: I don't remember seeing the United Arab Emirates on the
Speaker 2: list when I looked at it. So Singapore, Switzerland, then
Speaker 2: Australia 3rd, and then UAE last.
Speaker 1: Oh, you did so well last week Neiling, but I'm
Speaker 1: sorry to tell you, all of them are in the
Speaker 1: wrong position. All
Speaker 2: in.
Speaker 1: The most powerful passport in the world is the UAE.
Speaker 1: UAE is the most powerful passport in the world. Uh,
Speaker 1: Singapore is 2nd on that list, not 2nd.
Speaker 1: The world, 2 on that list. And then came Switzerland,
Speaker 1: and Australia had the least powerful out of that little grouping.
Speaker 2: Clearly, I'm recalling a different list.
Speaker 1: Singapore was 3rd overall, Switzerland's what, 456789, 11th, and Australia,
Speaker 1: a little depressing way down, I would say it looks about,
Speaker 1: about 25ish I would say for the Australian passport. OK. OK.
Speaker 1: Wanna have a guess which is the least
Speaker 1: powerful passport?
Speaker 2: There's got to be a conflict, some things that's
Speaker 2: In the midst of conflict. I'm gonna guess what? Yemen
Speaker 2: or maybe Iran because of the sanctions? Mm,
Speaker 1: Afghanistan.
Speaker 2: Oh
Speaker 1: wow. OK. A complete blowout for you today. But that's
Speaker 1: all right. You've always got next week. There'll be another
Speaker 1: quiz for sure. All right. That's all for this episode
Speaker 1: of Climate Conversations.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us. Give us some feedback, a rating
Speaker 1: or a question if you're listening on Spotify, you can
Speaker 1: do it right in the episode description.
Speaker 2: Catch you next week. I'm Li Ling Dun. Bye for
Speaker 1: now. I'm Jack Board. Thanks as always to the team
Speaker 1: that put together this podcast, Saayen, Tiffany Ung, Janai Jahari,
Speaker 1: and Christina Roberts.