WEBVTT - Passports for sale: Climate-vulnerable nations take unconventional steps for survival

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to a CNA podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>The passport you hold is so important to your mobility,

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<v Speaker 1>where you can travel, what visas you need, etc. What

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<v Speaker 1>if you could just get a new one, buy a

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<v Speaker 1>new one by helping another country out with their fight

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<v Speaker 1>against climate change? It's happening. Today we look at why

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<v Speaker 1>and where passports are being handed out in the face

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<v Speaker 1>of climate calamity.

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<v Speaker 1>Hello, welcome to Climate Conversations. I'm Jack Broadley. Link Tan

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<v Speaker 1>is back for more. How's your week been? Hello,

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<v Speaker 2>Jack. It's been spectacular. Thank you for asking. How has

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<v Speaker 2>your week

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<v Speaker 2>been?

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<v Speaker 1>My week has been great. I've just been on holidays,

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<v Speaker 1>so I'm pretty happy with that. Ready to go. Ready

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<v Speaker 1>to get into today's topic. Now, have you heard of

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<v Speaker 1>this before, this idea of golden passports?

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<v Speaker 1>How keen would you be to have a little sneaky

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<v Speaker 1>second passport in your hands?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think I'm allowed to talk about that, Jack.

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<v Speaker 2>Singapore does not allow dual citizenship. It's illegal and a

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<v Speaker 2>very bad thing to do. Can you

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<v Speaker 1>get a government is not listening, don't worry, not listening.

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<v Speaker 2>Um, what about you? Can you get a sneaky second

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<v Speaker 2>passport in Australia?

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we're allowed to have dual citizenship.

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<v Speaker 1>And I actually am in the process of trying to

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<v Speaker 1>get a second passport as we speak. So stay tuned,

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<v Speaker 1>whether that is successful. Is that a golden passport? It's

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<v Speaker 1>not a golden one. It's just a very regular one,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm not paying for it. But having a second passport, wow,

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<v Speaker 1>it's super useful. Ops up the world for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>OK, let's get into the quiz. Lee Ling, do you enjoy?

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<v Speaker 1>Checking out those passport power rankings that seem to come

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<v Speaker 1>out every year. Every time they come out makes a

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<v Speaker 1>little headline. Do you look at those?

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<v Speaker 2>Uh, no, not really. I mean, it's there, it's peripherally

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<v Speaker 2>there because people talk about it and Singapore's passport is

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<v Speaker 2>normally usually right up there in the top 5 or

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<v Speaker 2>top 10 rankings, if not right at the top spot.

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<v Speaker 2>Mm.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think that's why. I think it's just, it

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<v Speaker 1>always pops up in, in our news every year because

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<v Speaker 1>the Singapore passport's always staying so strong. OK, the question

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<v Speaker 1>today isn't really climate related, but can you put these

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<v Speaker 1>four countries' passports in order from the most to the

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<v Speaker 1>least powerful, and this is based on.

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<v Speaker 1>Global mobility caused by the passport index. Your four options, Singapore,

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<v Speaker 1>of course, Australia, the UAE and Switzerland. I've got different

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<v Speaker 1>continents covered there. What

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<v Speaker 2>do you think? I remember Singapore, of course. Japan and

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<v Speaker 2>South Korea were also, I think in the top 3 spots,

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<v Speaker 2>but that's all I recall. I need to kind of

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<v Speaker 2>go back into my memory bank. Have a

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<v Speaker 1>think, and so we'll be at the end.

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<v Speaker 1>And now for our main story this week. You might

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<v Speaker 1>know about this, countries offering citizenship or residency in exchange

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<v Speaker 1>for financial contributions. It's often called citizenship by investment, or CBIs.

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<v Speaker 1>Now it's not new, countries have been doing this for

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<v Speaker 1>a while. Go back to Saint Kitts and Nevis in 1984,

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<v Speaker 1>small Caribbean nations searching for foreign capital shortly after it

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<v Speaker 1>became independent.

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<v Speaker 1>The country came up with a novel plan, offering citizenship

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<v Speaker 1>in exchange for an investment or a donation to government

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<v Speaker 1>funds or real estate projects. By the 2000s, it had

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<v Speaker 1>become extremely popular as the United States and Canada, nearby countries,

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<v Speaker 1>curbed some of their foreign immigration programs.

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<v Speaker 1>It still functions today though as a CBI. Other countries

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<v Speaker 1>tried it too. Most flamed out due to corruption, money laundering,

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<v Speaker 1>a lack of transparency or public backlash. Look at Ireland, Tonga,

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<v Speaker 1>the Marshall Islands. But today, these schemes continue. Increasingly, they're

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<v Speaker 1>being used by small climate vulnerable nations desperate for help

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<v Speaker 1>and finances.

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<v Speaker 1>To fund their efforts to stave off the impacts of

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<v Speaker 1>climate change.

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<v Speaker 2>The most recent example we have, which I think is

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<v Speaker 2>really interesting, is one of those small island nations you're

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<v Speaker 2>talking about, Nauru. Now ask the average person to find

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<v Speaker 2>it on a map, Nauru, and well, good luck. It's

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<v Speaker 2>a tiny.

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<v Speaker 1>I think I can find it. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>that's because you're you and you look at maps as

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<v Speaker 2>bedtime reading. So.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a tiny phosphate rock plateau in the South Pacific,

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<v Speaker 2>northwest of the Solomon Islands, and it too in the past,

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<v Speaker 2>had a golden passport scheme that went badly awry.

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<v Speaker 2>Now at one point in the 1990s it was handing

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<v Speaker 2>out hundreds of passports, many to dodgy individuals from Russia

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<v Speaker 2>and the Middle East. It became a money laundering issue,

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<v Speaker 2>and when it was discovered, Nauru had sold passports to

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<v Speaker 2>members of al Qaeda in the early 2000s. Well, the

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<v Speaker 2>scheme stopped. Why are you laughing?

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<v Speaker 1>Well, that seems like a good way to stop.

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<v Speaker 1>Good reason to stop your scheme. You sold passports to

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<v Speaker 1>al

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<v Speaker 2>Qaeda. Yeah, bad idea. Now, you might recall that after that,

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<v Speaker 2>Nauru then allowed its land to be used for a

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<v Speaker 2>controversial immigration detention center under the management of your government.

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<v Speaker 2>Now that reaped millions of dollars for the country. And

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<v Speaker 2>then fast forward to today. Now, Nauru is back with

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<v Speaker 2>a new plan. This time, linked to climate change.

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<v Speaker 2>The country is extremely vulnerable to rising sea levels, no question,

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<v Speaker 2>with minimal freshwater resources, highly degraded land due to decades

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<v Speaker 2>of phosphate mining and limited food security. All of this

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<v Speaker 2>leads to a real lack of economic options.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it makes sense that they're looking for financing options.

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<v Speaker 1>And that means getting your hands on a Nauru passport.

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<v Speaker 1>So how much do we think that would cost? It's

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<v Speaker 1>not cheap. The government says it will cost a minimum

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<v Speaker 1>of $105,000 US dollars and certain criminals would be excluded

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<v Speaker 1>this time.

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<v Speaker 1>So then I have questions about who would pay for

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<v Speaker 1>that and why would they do it. The benefits for

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<v Speaker 1>an individual now with the Nauru passport is you get

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<v Speaker 1>visa-free access to 89 countries, including the UK, including Hong Kong,

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<v Speaker 1>the UAE and Singapore.

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<v Speaker 1>So, these people who would invest in Nauru's scheme might

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<v Speaker 1>not ever step on the country, but it does give

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<v Speaker 1>them global access to other more strategic places for their

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<v Speaker 1>lifestyle or their business ventures. Interesting, right? So,

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<v Speaker 2>you can be a citizen of the country without ever

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<v Speaker 2>having stepped foot there? OK. Well, yeah, sure. That's interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>But, you know, a lot of this is about survival, right? So,

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<v Speaker 2>that leads to what Nauru needs the money for. It

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<v Speaker 2>plans to move 90% of the island's population of around

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<v Speaker 2>12,500 people and move them to higher ground.

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<v Speaker 2>The problem in low lying Nauru is that decades of

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<v Speaker 2>phosphate mining has made much of the interior of their

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<v Speaker 2>islands uninhabitable, and that's pushed people to live close to

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<v Speaker 2>the coast, which of course is being eroded by rising

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<v Speaker 2>sea levels. So Nauru expects to make around $5.6 million

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<v Speaker 2>from the program in its first year. It's aiming for

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<v Speaker 2>about 500 applications and a total of $43 million and

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<v Speaker 2>that would go along.

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<v Speaker 2>Way to covering the cost of the mass relocations that

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<v Speaker 2>it wants to conduct. Now, it's not the only country

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<v Speaker 2>doing this. Others like Vanuatu, Dominica, and of course you

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned Saint Kitts and Nevis earlier, and several others are

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<v Speaker 2>doing it as well. And what do they all have

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<v Speaker 2>in common? They're all small island developing states on the

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<v Speaker 2>front lines of climate change.

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<v Speaker 1>These countries clearly have a need for climate adaptation financing.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a huge and growing problem for them.

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<v Speaker 1>And the international financing for these types of things is

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<v Speaker 1>stalled to some extent. And of course, we know that

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<v Speaker 1>the US is no longer an active player in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of climate funding. So, nations on the brink are watching

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<v Speaker 1>the clock. They're getting more desperate, and you can hardly

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<v Speaker 1>blame them, right? This is all about survival, as you said.

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<v Speaker 1>I spent a few weeks in the Pacific region last year,

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<v Speaker 1>not in Nauru, but other countries, Fiji, Kiribati.

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<v Speaker 1>And Tuvalu, where you can really see firsthand the impacts

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<v Speaker 1>of these rising sea levels. And Tuvalu is a country

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<v Speaker 1>that is widely labeled, rightly or wrongly, the first country

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<v Speaker 1>likely to disappear from climate change. So right now, it

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't have a CBI, but these types of ideas have

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<v Speaker 1>been discussed in the past. And debate rages on there

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<v Speaker 1>around this notion of migration with dignity, like, moving an

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<v Speaker 1>entire population somewhere else, like Australia for example.

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<v Speaker 1>So that raises these existential questions about what it means

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<v Speaker 1>to be a citizen of Tuvalu, to be a Tuvaluan.

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<v Speaker 1>And I think that's something that's deeper, it's more soulful,

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<v Speaker 1>and this notion of belonging to a place, regardless of

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<v Speaker 1>what your passport says.

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<v Speaker 1>So I have the questions about what we think about

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<v Speaker 1>putting a price on sovereignty, essentially making belonging to a

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<v Speaker 1>nation a commodity. And these are nations that sadly, potentially

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<v Speaker 1>may not have a long future, given the way that

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<v Speaker 1>the planet is heating

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<v Speaker 1>up.

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<v Speaker 2>And I think, you know, we're talking about life and death, right?

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<v Speaker 2>And when you ask the question of survival over sovereignty,

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<v Speaker 2>the choice, I think is quite a simple one to make,

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<v Speaker 2>especially when there is no land left to self-govern.

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<v Speaker 2>This is depressing talk, Jack.

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<v Speaker 1>It is, but I can see, like, why the Nauru

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<v Speaker 1>government wants to do this. Giving out 500 passports is

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<v Speaker 1>essentially something they can do without really much impact on

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<v Speaker 1>their own resources. Yet it gives them the money that

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<v Speaker 1>they can't get from anywhere else to literally save their

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<v Speaker 1>entire population, so.

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<v Speaker 1>I can see it making sense whether these schemes work

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<v Speaker 1>this time around, well, we'll wait and see, I guess.

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<v Speaker 1>But you won't be getting one. That's, that's what we've established.

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<v Speaker 2>No, no.

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<v Speaker 1>I didn't realize that Singapore you can't.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I had a Singaporean friend in Australia who

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<v Speaker 2>had been holding two citizenships and then COVID happened, was

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<v Speaker 2>required to get vaccinated, but his proof of vaccination was

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<v Speaker 2>from Australia and it stated that he was a citizen

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<v Speaker 2>there and so Singapore found out.

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<v Speaker 2>And made him relinquish his Singapore citizenship.

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<v Speaker 1>I have a friend who's Singaporean. Her parents were in Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>She was born in Adelaide, got an Australian passport, never

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<v Speaker 1>been a Singaporean, even though she's then like lived her

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<v Speaker 1>whole life in Singapore, but it has an Australian passport. Strange.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so this golden passport thing could just change how

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of things work as more countries start offering

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<v Speaker 2>this or consider offering this as an option to finance

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<v Speaker 2>their climate adaptation and mitigation strategies, right?

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<v Speaker 2>So we'll see, we'll watch this space.

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<v Speaker 1>I'll let you know if I get my second passport.

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<v Speaker 2>It's

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<v Speaker 1>not Nauru. That's, that's all I'll tell you.

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<v Speaker 2>OK.

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<v Speaker 1>OK, back to our quiz question. To repeat it, can

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<v Speaker 1>you rank these passports by their power? And we have Singapore, Australia,

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<v Speaker 1>the UAE, and Switzerland.

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<v Speaker 2>OK, I think Singapore, obviously at the top. I remember

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<v Speaker 2>seeing Switzerland on the list, and it, it, Switzerland has

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<v Speaker 2>historically been included, of course, among the top spots. So Singapore, Switzerland.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't remember seeing the United Arab Emirates on the

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<v Speaker 2>list when I looked at it. So Singapore, Switzerland, then

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<v Speaker 2>Australia 3rd, and then UAE last.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, you did so well last week Neiling, but I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sorry to tell you, all of them are in the

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<v Speaker 1>wrong position. All

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<v Speaker 2>in.

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<v Speaker 1>The most powerful passport in the world is the UAE.

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<v Speaker 1>UAE is the most powerful passport in the world. Uh,

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<v Speaker 1>Singapore is 2nd on that list, not 2nd.

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<v Speaker 1>The world, 2 on that list. And then came Switzerland,

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<v Speaker 1>and Australia had the least powerful out of that little grouping.

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<v Speaker 2>Clearly, I'm recalling a different list.

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<v Speaker 1>Singapore was 3rd overall, Switzerland's what, 456789, 11th, and Australia,

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<v Speaker 1>a little depressing way down, I would say it looks about,

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<v Speaker 1>about 25ish I would say for the Australian passport. OK. OK.

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<v Speaker 1>Wanna have a guess which is the least

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<v Speaker 1>powerful passport?

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<v Speaker 2>There's got to be a conflict, some things that's

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<v Speaker 2>In the midst of conflict. I'm gonna guess what? Yemen

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<v Speaker 2>or maybe Iran because of the sanctions? Mm,

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<v Speaker 1>Afghanistan.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh

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<v Speaker 1>wow. OK. A complete blowout for you today. But that's

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<v Speaker 1>all right. You've always got next week. There'll be another

0:12:35.500 --> 0:12:39.250
<v Speaker 1>quiz for sure. All right. That's all for this episode

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<v Speaker 1>of Climate Conversations.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for joining us. Give us some feedback, a rating

0:12:43.114 --> 0:12:45.044
<v Speaker 1>or a question if you're listening on Spotify, you can

0:12:45.044 --> 0:12:47.395
<v Speaker 1>do it right in the episode description.

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<v Speaker 2>Catch you next week. I'm Li Ling Dun. Bye for

0:12:50.284 --> 0:12:52.794
<v Speaker 1>now. I'm Jack Board. Thanks as always to the team

0:12:52.794 --> 0:12:56.825
<v Speaker 1>that put together this podcast, Saayen, Tiffany Ung, Janai Jahari,

0:12:56.864 --> 0:12:58.164
<v Speaker 1>and Christina Roberts.