1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:02,609 Speaker 1: You're listening to AC N A podcast. 2 00:00:05,130 --> 00:00:07,340 Speaker 1: So, hi guys. It's Steven here and welcome back to 3 00:00:07,349 --> 00:00:10,180 Speaker 1: Heart of The Matter. It's a brand new year. So 4 00:00:10,199 --> 00:00:11,930 Speaker 1: the kids are back in school. We thought why not 5 00:00:11,939 --> 00:00:15,119 Speaker 1: kick off with the topic of education? Now, in terms 6 00:00:15,130 --> 00:00:17,750 Speaker 1: of bragging rights, Singapore has a lot to be proud of. 7 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,590 Speaker 1: Out of 81 countries. Singapore stands right at the top 8 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,659 Speaker 1: of the table. I'm talking about Pisa. This is the 9 00:00:23,670 --> 00:00:27,399 Speaker 1: OECD S program for International Student Assessment. It measures a 10 00:00:27,409 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: 15 year old's ability to use their reading, mathematics and science, 11 00:00:31,129 --> 00:00:33,950 Speaker 1: knowledge and skills to meet real life challenges. 12 00:00:34,174 --> 00:00:36,755 Speaker 1: Well, at least that's what it says on the website. 13 00:00:36,884 --> 00:00:40,244 Speaker 1: But today we want to examine and challenge the importance 14 00:00:40,255 --> 00:00:44,455 Speaker 1: of those metrics, especially in a world where social, emotional, 15 00:00:44,473 --> 00:00:47,684 Speaker 1: perhaps creative skills are more important than some of these 16 00:00:47,694 --> 00:00:50,415 Speaker 1: other metrics where you can learn how to code on 17 00:00:50,424 --> 00:00:53,205 Speaker 1: youtube A I can give you answers to formulas and 18 00:00:53,215 --> 00:00:56,845 Speaker 1: knowledge can simply be found just a few clicks away. So, yes, 19 00:00:56,854 --> 00:00:59,384 Speaker 1: Singapore is top of that list. But does it mean 20 00:00:59,395 --> 00:01:02,314 Speaker 1: we are ready for this brave new world, a world 21 00:01:02,325 --> 00:01:03,165 Speaker 1: of the unexpected. 22 00:01:05,769 --> 00:01:09,069 Speaker 1: Joining me for the discussion today are Liu Wei Le 23 00:01:09,089 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: Director General of Education at the Ministry of Education. 24 00:01:12,050 --> 00:01:13,610 Speaker 2: Hello, everyone. I'm glad to be 25 00:01:13,620 --> 00:01:17,839 Speaker 1: here. Associate Professor Jason Tan from the National Institute of Education. Hello. 26 00:01:17,849 --> 00:01:20,370 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me, Ian Tan, a parent of 27 00:01:20,379 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: a 21 year old and a 19 year old. He's 28 00:01:22,809 --> 00:01:26,878 Speaker 1: also a lecturer in Strategic Communications at the NT we Kim. 29 00:01:26,889 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: We School of Communication and Information. Hey, Steven. Hey everyone. 30 00:01:30,410 --> 00:01:33,150 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me here. Ok. So Singapore pulls in 31 00:01:33,273 --> 00:01:36,873 Speaker 1: as the top performer for reading. Mathematics and science. Really 32 00:01:36,883 --> 00:01:39,093 Speaker 1: for a start. Perhaps you can help explain to us 33 00:01:39,102 --> 00:01:42,222 Speaker 1: why are we still measuring how well 15 year olds 34 00:01:42,233 --> 00:01:44,693 Speaker 1: fare in these three areas? And why is it seen 35 00:01:44,703 --> 00:01:46,013 Speaker 1: as a good measurement of one's 36 00:01:46,023 --> 00:01:49,943 Speaker 2: ability? There are some fundamentals that are quite key to 37 00:01:49,953 --> 00:01:53,453 Speaker 2: be able to keep learning and reading. If you can't read, 38 00:01:53,462 --> 00:01:55,983 Speaker 2: you are not able to continue learning throughout the rest 39 00:01:55,992 --> 00:01:58,752 Speaker 2: of your life. So it is a good measure for everyone, 40 00:01:58,763 --> 00:02:00,672 Speaker 2: not just in Singapore, math and 41 00:02:00,905 --> 00:02:04,545 Speaker 2: ethics, you definitely need it to be able to compute, 42 00:02:04,555 --> 00:02:06,945 Speaker 2: to be able to add on in terms of the 43 00:02:06,956 --> 00:02:12,285 Speaker 2: technological advancements and development. So mathematics is another core fundamental 44 00:02:12,296 --> 00:02:16,026 Speaker 2: that we need. Science is critical to how we have 45 00:02:16,035 --> 00:02:20,345 Speaker 2: new developments, new scientific discoveries, how we advance how we 46 00:02:20,356 --> 00:02:23,425 Speaker 2: improve our community, how we improve our world. So that's 47 00:02:23,436 --> 00:02:27,466 Speaker 2: another core fundamental tracking these three areas will help us 48 00:02:27,475 --> 00:02:28,266 Speaker 2: to understand 49 00:02:28,500 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 2: whether our fundamentals are still strong, our foundations are still strong, 50 00:02:32,008 --> 00:02:34,539 Speaker 2: which we can build further from it. But one 51 00:02:34,550 --> 00:02:37,660 Speaker 1: could argue that while these three areas are important, they're 52 00:02:37,669 --> 00:02:41,169 Speaker 1: not the only basis for one's ability and increasingly in 53 00:02:41,179 --> 00:02:44,110 Speaker 1: a world that has changed so much where social skills 54 00:02:44,119 --> 00:02:46,190 Speaker 1: are very important, the ability to think out of the 55 00:02:46,199 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: box 56 00:02:46,615 --> 00:02:49,865 Speaker 1: to be flexible and react to changing situations. These would 57 00:02:49,875 --> 00:02:53,353 Speaker 1: be perhaps maybe even more important in some respects, Jason, 58 00:02:53,365 --> 00:02:56,074 Speaker 1: what do you think? One plus of these sorts of 59 00:02:56,085 --> 00:02:59,824 Speaker 1: periodic ranking tables is they provide us with snapshots in 60 00:02:59,835 --> 00:03:02,535 Speaker 1: time as it were. But at the same time, I 61 00:03:02,544 --> 00:03:04,634 Speaker 1: would urge some degree of caution. 62 00:03:04,910 --> 00:03:08,750 Speaker 1: In other words, I'm talking about intelligently interpreting these sorts 63 00:03:08,758 --> 00:03:13,660 Speaker 1: of league table results because for one thing, Singapore has 64 00:03:13,669 --> 00:03:18,020 Speaker 1: decided to move away quite wisely, in my opinion, from 65 00:03:18,029 --> 00:03:20,299 Speaker 1: an excessive focus on rank 66 00:03:20,554 --> 00:03:23,294 Speaker 1: tables. Remember at one time, the secondary schools and J 67 00:03:23,304 --> 00:03:25,744 Speaker 1: CS were ranked and that's been done away with. So 68 00:03:25,755 --> 00:03:28,404 Speaker 1: I would urge some degree of caution when we try 69 00:03:28,413 --> 00:03:32,574 Speaker 1: and think about this kind of rigid hierarchical ranking of countries, 70 00:03:32,585 --> 00:03:34,945 Speaker 1: these sorts of numbers tend to take on a life 71 00:03:34,955 --> 00:03:35,764 Speaker 1: of their own. 72 00:03:36,130 --> 00:03:38,330 Speaker 1: Yeah. Does it in fact mislead people to a certain 73 00:03:38,339 --> 00:03:40,789 Speaker 1: degree because we end up thinking, hey, we're really good 74 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:42,490 Speaker 1: in all these areas and we're pretty good in the 75 00:03:42,500 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: education field, but maybe we're not so great. One of 76 00:03:46,009 --> 00:03:50,169 Speaker 1: the limitations of these sorts of tables is they invariably 77 00:03:50,179 --> 00:03:54,130 Speaker 1: rely on quantitative indicators as they need to. And that 78 00:03:54,139 --> 00:03:58,770 Speaker 1: means that very complex educational and social phenomena 79 00:03:59,044 --> 00:04:04,565 Speaker 1: tend to be reduced to single numbers. Very often, policymakers 80 00:04:04,574 --> 00:04:08,684 Speaker 1: tend to get either elated or very upset when these 81 00:04:08,695 --> 00:04:12,345 Speaker 1: sorts of ranking table results are released every few years. 82 00:04:12,535 --> 00:04:16,104 Speaker 1: But really, they need to bear in mind that there's 83 00:04:16,113 --> 00:04:20,795 Speaker 1: much more to education and educational quality and these sorts 84 00:04:20,803 --> 00:04:21,644 Speaker 1: of phenomena 85 00:04:21,910 --> 00:04:25,089 Speaker 1: than just those numbers that we see in the tables. 86 00:04:25,100 --> 00:04:27,290 Speaker 1: So I guess it it helps give some indication but 87 00:04:27,299 --> 00:04:30,100 Speaker 1: it shouldn't be the only tool of measurement ian, how 88 00:04:30,109 --> 00:04:32,488 Speaker 1: do you feel about such rankings? I think the ranking 89 00:04:32,500 --> 00:04:35,909 Speaker 1: is a really good snapshot, right? Firstly, it tries to 90 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:40,678 Speaker 1: be objective. It lets us confirm that our education system 91 00:04:40,690 --> 00:04:43,428 Speaker 1: has this rigor over the years because the results are 92 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:48,169 Speaker 1: there for people to see quantitative data. Thus demonstrate confirmation 93 00:04:48,178 --> 00:04:50,450 Speaker 1: of what we've been excelling in all this time. 94 00:04:50,738 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: Going back to what you mentioned about creativity, thinking of 95 00:04:53,769 --> 00:04:56,869 Speaker 1: the box. I also believe that you need to have 96 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,959 Speaker 1: a strong foundation in knowledge and fundamental skills in maths, 97 00:05:00,970 --> 00:05:04,459 Speaker 1: science and reading in order to be creative. I'm teaching 98 00:05:04,470 --> 00:05:09,010 Speaker 1: creative courses at the university, creative advertising, creative design, and 99 00:05:09,019 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: so on. 100 00:05:09,730 --> 00:05:13,529 Speaker 1: And one of the most important criteria to do creative 101 00:05:13,540 --> 00:05:16,329 Speaker 1: work is to have a store of knowledge and understanding 102 00:05:16,339 --> 00:05:19,618 Speaker 1: of the world. And when you are proficient in reading, 103 00:05:19,630 --> 00:05:22,589 Speaker 1: especially reading, you are able to explore the realms of 104 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,229 Speaker 1: knowledge out there and not be confined to very small 105 00:05:26,238 --> 00:05:30,149 Speaker 1: bubbles of information. You have a better chance of coming 106 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:31,230 Speaker 1: up with creative input. 107 00:05:31,500 --> 00:05:35,238 Speaker 1: So this is how I see the numbers versus the 108 00:05:35,250 --> 00:05:38,100 Speaker 1: abstract idea of creativity. But I have to challenge you 109 00:05:38,109 --> 00:05:40,339 Speaker 1: on the store of knowledge because I would argue that 110 00:05:40,350 --> 00:05:42,399 Speaker 1: in this day and age, especially with A I, I 111 00:05:42,410 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 1: don't need a store of knowledge in that sense. I 112 00:05:45,369 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: instead need all the tools 113 00:05:46,988 --> 00:05:49,589 Speaker 1: to be able to access the knowledge because no one 114 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,630 Speaker 1: can have such a plethora of information. And in this 115 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:54,368 Speaker 1: day and age, do I really need to memorize all 116 00:05:54,380 --> 00:05:57,140 Speaker 1: these facts and I can just search them online. So 117 00:05:57,149 --> 00:06:00,979 Speaker 1: let me challenge you back, right? I also teach people 118 00:06:00,988 --> 00:06:02,339 Speaker 1: how to upscale in A I. 119 00:06:02,750 --> 00:06:05,480 Speaker 1: And the first thing I tell every class is that 120 00:06:05,488 --> 00:06:07,779 Speaker 1: you need to be a subject matter expert in order 121 00:06:07,790 --> 00:06:10,659 Speaker 1: to wield A I tools. Well, because you need to 122 00:06:10,670 --> 00:06:14,140 Speaker 1: be able to analyze and evaluate the outcome. What A 123 00:06:14,149 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 1: I has generated? Is this good or bad? Is it 124 00:06:17,209 --> 00:06:19,979 Speaker 1: right or wrong? Without that store of knowledge, you cannot 125 00:06:19,988 --> 00:06:23,829 Speaker 1: assess the outcome. So A I tools they shorten the 126 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:26,700 Speaker 1: time that we use to achieve outcomes, but it does 127 00:06:26,709 --> 00:06:30,359 Speaker 1: not replace the need for human to have a basis 128 00:06:30,369 --> 00:06:32,119 Speaker 1: of knowledge and to make an evaluation, 129 00:06:32,660 --> 00:06:34,609 Speaker 1: the basis of knowledge. Yeah, I agree. I need to 130 00:06:34,619 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: have some idea how things work so that I can 131 00:06:37,010 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: evaluate whether what is being returned to me by A 132 00:06:39,890 --> 00:06:42,488 Speaker 1: I is actually accurate or not. But at the same 133 00:06:42,500 --> 00:06:44,488 Speaker 1: time I don't really need to know it all. Instead 134 00:06:44,500 --> 00:06:46,349 Speaker 1: I need to know how to ask questions. What I've 135 00:06:46,359 --> 00:06:48,368 Speaker 1: learned is know how to ask the A I so 136 00:06:48,380 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: that I can get the information. 137 00:06:49,730 --> 00:06:52,089 Speaker 1: Is this something that we could teach in our schools 138 00:06:52,100 --> 00:06:54,380 Speaker 1: that we should be looking to perhaps find a way 139 00:06:54,390 --> 00:06:57,750 Speaker 1: to even measure the ability of our kids moving forward. Really, 140 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 2: Steve, I just wanted to get back to Pisa not 141 00:07:00,450 --> 00:07:02,859 Speaker 2: that I want to defend the instrument, but just to 142 00:07:02,869 --> 00:07:05,609 Speaker 2: let you know that it's not just a one dimensional 143 00:07:05,619 --> 00:07:09,549 Speaker 2: view of knowledge, it is actually in evaluating the depth 144 00:07:09,559 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 2: of skills that students have. So for example, reading, it's 145 00:07:13,010 --> 00:07:17,630 Speaker 2: also going into inference reading between the lines being able 146 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:19,549 Speaker 2: to have media literacy. 147 00:07:19,820 --> 00:07:24,519 Speaker 2: So it is beyond very simple skills, it goes on 148 00:07:24,529 --> 00:07:28,450 Speaker 2: into complex proficiency as well for mathematics as well as 149 00:07:28,459 --> 00:07:32,519 Speaker 2: for science. So we actually mine further into the individual 150 00:07:32,529 --> 00:07:36,489 Speaker 2: skill sets that the test is able to give us. 151 00:07:36,619 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 2: But you are right in that it is only one 152 00:07:39,170 --> 00:07:40,869 Speaker 2: measure and it's insufficient. 153 00:07:41,019 --> 00:07:44,170 Speaker 2: So we will have to develop other ways and find 154 00:07:44,179 --> 00:07:46,450 Speaker 2: other ways to be able to see whether our students 155 00:07:46,459 --> 00:07:50,459 Speaker 2: have got the range of competencies, whether it's communication skills, 156 00:07:50,570 --> 00:07:54,089 Speaker 2: whether it's in being able to read body language, whether 157 00:07:54,100 --> 00:07:56,850 Speaker 2: it's being able to work together with other people, which 158 00:07:56,859 --> 00:08:00,089 Speaker 2: some of these instruments will not be able to measure. 159 00:08:00,140 --> 00:08:02,010 Speaker 2: So it is only one aspect of it. 160 00:08:02,350 --> 00:08:05,570 Speaker 2: But getting back to your question about whether we are 161 00:08:05,579 --> 00:08:09,890 Speaker 2: giving our students more data literacy and and maybe even 162 00:08:09,899 --> 00:08:13,299 Speaker 2: A I literacy since now, it is giving us that 163 00:08:13,309 --> 00:08:16,910 Speaker 2: big shift in being able to learn to work as 164 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:21,529 Speaker 2: well as to execute some of our daily requirements. Indeed, 165 00:08:21,540 --> 00:08:24,609 Speaker 2: our teachers are using it. Our students are using it. 166 00:08:24,619 --> 00:08:28,170 Speaker 2: We're not flinching from it. We're still exploring ways to 167 00:08:28,179 --> 00:08:28,570 Speaker 2: do it. 168 00:08:28,809 --> 00:08:31,510 Speaker 2: So for example, we have three areas in which we 169 00:08:31,519 --> 00:08:34,630 Speaker 2: use A I in our system. Now, one is for 170 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,469 Speaker 2: learning mathematics. So it is actually a system in which 171 00:08:38,479 --> 00:08:42,530 Speaker 2: our students can use to learn mathematics. We also use 172 00:08:42,539 --> 00:08:45,419 Speaker 2: it as a feedback assistant. So for example, if you 173 00:08:45,429 --> 00:08:48,570 Speaker 2: give a short answer, it is able to mark for 174 00:08:48,580 --> 00:08:50,390 Speaker 2: you that gives you instant feedback 175 00:08:50,926 --> 00:08:53,434 Speaker 2: so that students are a little bit more motivated to 176 00:08:53,445 --> 00:08:56,694 Speaker 2: be able to tackle it because they see immediately whether 177 00:08:56,705 --> 00:09:00,635 Speaker 2: the answer meets a certain requirements, it also allows them 178 00:09:00,645 --> 00:09:04,716 Speaker 2: to learn English better because there's a quick feedback about 179 00:09:04,726 --> 00:09:08,745 Speaker 2: their English capability. So for example, I just went into 180 00:09:08,755 --> 00:09:10,515 Speaker 2: a class the other day and they were learning about 181 00:09:10,526 --> 00:09:11,995 Speaker 2: persuasive writing 182 00:09:12,432 --> 00:09:16,992 Speaker 2: and they actually plug their writing into chat G BT 183 00:09:17,131 --> 00:09:20,411 Speaker 2: and with prompts and they're learning how to use better prompts, 184 00:09:20,541 --> 00:09:24,682 Speaker 2: ask chat G BT to improve their essay and they 185 00:09:24,692 --> 00:09:26,981 Speaker 2: take a look at how it improves the essay and 186 00:09:26,992 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 2: get their peers to be able to comment on it 187 00:09:30,291 --> 00:09:32,502 Speaker 2: as well. So, I mean, that's an interesting way of 188 00:09:32,511 --> 00:09:33,081 Speaker 2: using it. 189 00:09:33,151 --> 00:09:35,872 Speaker 1: But again, it still sounds like much of it is 190 00:09:35,881 --> 00:09:39,261 Speaker 1: being used to measure more academic ability. 191 00:09:39,479 --> 00:09:42,030 Speaker 1: I'm asking about the soft skills, some of the EQ 192 00:09:42,039 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 1: that sometimes it's a bit hard to teach per se. 193 00:09:44,210 --> 00:09:47,940 Speaker 1: But through the methods of the way teachers teach, the 194 00:09:47,950 --> 00:09:50,859 Speaker 1: way classes are run, kids learn from that, how do 195 00:09:50,869 --> 00:09:53,539 Speaker 1: we impart these soft skills to prepare them for an 196 00:09:53,549 --> 00:09:55,940 Speaker 1: environment that could be unexpected? In fact, we don't even 197 00:09:55,950 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: really know what the jobs of the future might be. 198 00:09:58,030 --> 00:10:00,950 Speaker 1: Is Pisa still a good indicator of where we stand 199 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:03,619 Speaker 1: or should we also be looking at other indicators? And 200 00:10:03,630 --> 00:10:06,369 Speaker 1: how do we broaden that scope to allow us to 201 00:10:06,380 --> 00:10:08,549 Speaker 1: have a better understanding of where we really stand? 202 00:10:08,830 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 2: Ok. One of the tests was on collaborative problem solving. 203 00:10:12,330 --> 00:10:14,848 Speaker 2: So they had a very creative way to be able 204 00:10:14,859 --> 00:10:18,669 Speaker 2: to allow a few people inputs to work together. To 205 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,619 Speaker 2: our surprise, Austrians did quite well there too and our 206 00:10:21,630 --> 00:10:24,330 Speaker 2: students didn't know anything about the test. What we are 207 00:10:24,340 --> 00:10:28,210 Speaker 2: doing in schools is beyond classes that you see preparing 208 00:10:28,219 --> 00:10:31,669 Speaker 2: for academic exams. That's the value of our co curricular 209 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:33,250 Speaker 2: activities our CCS, 210 00:10:33,799 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 2: when you collaborate together, when you organize something, when there's 211 00:10:37,530 --> 00:10:40,909 Speaker 2: leadership opportunity, when you're going out into the community to 212 00:10:40,919 --> 00:10:44,229 Speaker 2: help them in certain ways, that's where you practice your 213 00:10:44,239 --> 00:10:45,650 Speaker 2: EQ IAN. What do you 214 00:10:45,659 --> 00:10:48,780 Speaker 1: think for the curricula that are designed at school? I 215 00:10:48,789 --> 00:10:54,459 Speaker 1: always try to create opportunities for the students to interact 216 00:10:54,469 --> 00:10:57,989 Speaker 1: in challenging situations. It could be assignments, it could be projects, 217 00:10:58,000 --> 00:10:59,419 Speaker 1: it could be in class exercises. 218 00:10:59,650 --> 00:11:02,609 Speaker 1: This will allow them to encounter situations where they have 219 00:11:02,619 --> 00:11:06,949 Speaker 1: to exercise their soft skills, learning how to interact and 220 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:10,530 Speaker 1: to collaborate and always dealing with conflict. There's always going 221 00:11:10,539 --> 00:11:13,409 Speaker 1: to be conflict anywhere that you go, right? How do 222 00:11:13,419 --> 00:11:14,059 Speaker 1: we 223 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,739 Speaker 1: measure the outcome? I think it's kind of difficult, but 224 00:11:17,750 --> 00:11:19,890 Speaker 1: I think more important is the experience that they go 225 00:11:19,900 --> 00:11:22,659 Speaker 1: through and also giving them the feedback along the way 226 00:11:22,669 --> 00:11:27,218 Speaker 1: on how to mitigate these situations. I think empathy needs 227 00:11:27,229 --> 00:11:30,919 Speaker 1: to be built through putting people in new situations, role 228 00:11:30,929 --> 00:11:34,140 Speaker 1: modeling and just getting people to 229 00:11:34,469 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 1: interact more with each other rather than just looking at 230 00:11:36,690 --> 00:11:39,619 Speaker 1: the phones and you know, but experiential learning is so important. 231 00:11:39,630 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: And in fact, I recall to my time in school, 232 00:11:41,969 --> 00:11:43,830 Speaker 1: I never fared well in our system because I was 233 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,409 Speaker 1: not very good at memorizing facts. I went to the 234 00:11:46,419 --> 00:11:50,119 Speaker 1: normal stream after Psle fortunately got back to express stream 235 00:11:50,219 --> 00:11:52,289 Speaker 1: se two. But then in JC, I repeated my first 236 00:11:52,299 --> 00:11:52,770 Speaker 1: year again. 237 00:11:53,190 --> 00:11:55,929 Speaker 1: On hindsight, I realized I learned so many life skills 238 00:11:55,940 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 1: from those failures. What we would consider failures here, kindness, 239 00:11:59,690 --> 00:12:03,409 Speaker 1: generosity of certain teachers, empathy, all these things that I 240 00:12:03,419 --> 00:12:05,609 Speaker 1: don't think I would have learned if I had just 241 00:12:05,619 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 1: gone down what we often term here, like a scholar 242 00:12:07,650 --> 00:12:10,130 Speaker 1: route and just been straight a student all the way, 243 00:12:10,140 --> 00:12:13,119 Speaker 1: you know. So how can we sort of encourage our 244 00:12:13,130 --> 00:12:15,130 Speaker 1: Children while we don't want them to fail? 245 00:12:15,500 --> 00:12:18,689 Speaker 1: How do we allow them to be exposed because school 246 00:12:18,700 --> 00:12:21,250 Speaker 1: is the safest place where you can fail, so to speak, 247 00:12:21,270 --> 00:12:24,229 Speaker 1: where the consequences aren't severe? I mean, Jason, do you 248 00:12:24,239 --> 00:12:27,988 Speaker 1: see teaching in Singapore evolving? How do we make this 249 00:12:28,000 --> 00:12:30,830 Speaker 1: part of the curriculum, so to speak, the schools are 250 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,319 Speaker 1: in the midst of a very exciting period of transition. Really, 251 00:12:34,609 --> 00:12:40,309 Speaker 1: the Ministry of Education is actively trying to encourage this 252 00:12:40,599 --> 00:12:45,179 Speaker 1: concerted move away from a very if you like entrenched 253 00:12:45,190 --> 00:12:49,169 Speaker 1: way of viewing education, which is to score well in exams, 254 00:12:49,179 --> 00:12:52,590 Speaker 1: in order that you get a degree, get a prestigious 255 00:12:52,599 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 1: job and a secure future. So the thinking goes, it's 256 00:12:55,690 --> 00:12:57,750 Speaker 1: not going to be easy, but I see this sort 257 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,869 Speaker 1: of transition making headway really 258 00:13:01,349 --> 00:13:03,750 Speaker 1: and it's not going to take place overnight because we 259 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:07,770 Speaker 1: are talking about structural changes such as the changes in 260 00:13:07,780 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 1: the PSLE scoring system as well as at the level 261 00:13:11,770 --> 00:13:13,039 Speaker 1: of practice 262 00:13:13,549 --> 00:13:16,859 Speaker 1: in the classrooms and in the schools, for example, the 263 00:13:17,150 --> 00:13:21,780 Speaker 1: idea that teachers ought to role model, the sorts of 264 00:13:21,789 --> 00:13:26,369 Speaker 1: values and attitudes and behaviors for their students. These sorts 265 00:13:26,380 --> 00:13:31,179 Speaker 1: of values or attitudes or behaviors are not only explicitly 266 00:13:31,190 --> 00:13:32,859 Speaker 1: taught by teachers, but 267 00:13:33,250 --> 00:13:37,650 Speaker 1: very often students, if you like, catch these sorts of 268 00:13:37,659 --> 00:13:43,390 Speaker 1: attitudes merely by observing how the grownups and their peers interact. 269 00:13:43,570 --> 00:13:46,630 Speaker 1: Because very often it's not the explicit messages that the 270 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:48,590 Speaker 1: adults in their lives try to send to them. But 271 00:13:48,599 --> 00:13:49,909 Speaker 1: it's also at the same time, 272 00:13:50,239 --> 00:13:53,859 Speaker 1: all these hidden or implicit messages that they pick up. 273 00:13:53,869 --> 00:13:56,358 Speaker 1: So on the flip side, what about parents? Is that 274 00:13:56,369 --> 00:14:00,489 Speaker 1: another obstacle, Ian, what do you think? So, I've tried 275 00:14:00,500 --> 00:14:03,809 Speaker 1: to be the best parent to my kids by not 276 00:14:03,820 --> 00:14:08,950 Speaker 1: setting expectations in many ways. In hindsight, that was really 277 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,039 Speaker 1: good because we discovered my two kids. They are very 278 00:14:12,049 --> 00:14:15,650 Speaker 1: different in aptitude and their interests and so on. 279 00:14:15,919 --> 00:14:18,799 Speaker 1: I have never told them that. Ok, you must go 280 00:14:18,809 --> 00:14:21,359 Speaker 1: this route. Please be a doctor, please be a lawyer 281 00:14:21,369 --> 00:14:24,479 Speaker 1: and so on. My mom treated me the same way. 282 00:14:24,489 --> 00:14:27,190 Speaker 1: She did say please try to be a doctor, lawyer engineer. 283 00:14:27,500 --> 00:14:29,919 Speaker 1: It didn't work out right. I went my own way 284 00:14:29,929 --> 00:14:31,820 Speaker 1: and that's how I got to journalism in the first 285 00:14:31,830 --> 00:14:34,700 Speaker 1: place with my kids. I have always told them 286 00:14:34,909 --> 00:14:37,409 Speaker 1: you make the decision and you have to live with 287 00:14:37,419 --> 00:14:40,020 Speaker 1: it so that you don't blame me later. Because at 288 00:14:40,030 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: the same time, I've also seen other kids grow up 289 00:14:43,090 --> 00:14:45,849 Speaker 1: and being very resentful of the path that their parents 290 00:14:45,859 --> 00:14:48,869 Speaker 1: encourage them to go on. I didn't want that for 291 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,460 Speaker 1: my kids. Now, as my kids go from being a 292 00:14:52,469 --> 00:14:56,729 Speaker 1: teenager to adulthood, they are facing the challenges of this 293 00:14:56,739 --> 00:15:00,049 Speaker 1: transition and even working part time or full time, they 294 00:15:00,059 --> 00:15:01,010 Speaker 1: are encountering it. 295 00:15:01,229 --> 00:15:04,150 Speaker 1: This is where I say as little as possible. But 296 00:15:04,159 --> 00:15:06,500 Speaker 1: I tell them, hey, if you have any questions, just 297 00:15:06,510 --> 00:15:10,150 Speaker 1: let me know because I don't want to influence how 298 00:15:10,159 --> 00:15:12,119 Speaker 1: they perceive the world. I want the world to come 299 00:15:12,130 --> 00:15:15,770 Speaker 1: to them in all its rawness and let them figure 300 00:15:15,780 --> 00:15:18,570 Speaker 1: it out while being supportive in the background. So don't, 301 00:15:18,580 --> 00:15:21,190 Speaker 1: don't sort of be overprotective of our kids. Yes. Yes, 302 00:15:21,724 --> 00:15:24,734 Speaker 1: of independence on their own where they can be discovering, 303 00:15:24,835 --> 00:15:27,914 Speaker 1: making the mistakes by themselves too. You know. So another 304 00:15:27,924 --> 00:15:30,275 Speaker 1: thing I want to add is that our education system 305 00:15:30,284 --> 00:15:32,885 Speaker 1: for all the good changes that have happened over the years. 306 00:15:33,164 --> 00:15:35,015 Speaker 1: I'm sorry to say, but I think the parents are 307 00:15:35,025 --> 00:15:38,744 Speaker 1: often the first layer that we need to deal with 308 00:15:38,755 --> 00:15:43,465 Speaker 1: to change how they view education and that maybe the 309 00:15:43,474 --> 00:15:45,465 Speaker 1: world has changed. It is no longer what it used 310 00:15:45,474 --> 00:15:47,494 Speaker 1: to be when they were starting out in school or 311 00:15:47,505 --> 00:15:49,875 Speaker 1: at work. I agree with you. Let's ask the educators 312 00:15:49,885 --> 00:15:51,034 Speaker 1: on the other side of the sofa, 313 00:15:52,700 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 2: I think every parent wants the best for their Children 314 00:15:55,450 --> 00:15:58,469 Speaker 2: and the Singapore parent is very invested in education, which 315 00:15:58,479 --> 00:16:01,419 Speaker 2: is a good thing. But we probably need a slight 316 00:16:01,429 --> 00:16:04,669 Speaker 2: change in how they approach. I really like Ian's approach 317 00:16:04,679 --> 00:16:08,590 Speaker 2: to parenting, which is to give space to the child, 318 00:16:08,599 --> 00:16:11,710 Speaker 2: to be able to go through the process of learning. 319 00:16:11,989 --> 00:16:15,340 Speaker 2: Because when you learn, you will make mistakes and you 320 00:16:15,349 --> 00:16:18,099 Speaker 2: learn from the mistakes. But if you pounce on every 321 00:16:18,109 --> 00:16:22,450 Speaker 2: single mistake and expect too much, too soon, too quickly, 322 00:16:22,609 --> 00:16:25,989 Speaker 2: the child will be worried and scared and that performance 323 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,849 Speaker 2: anxiety will follow them for quite a while. 324 00:16:29,059 --> 00:16:31,109 Speaker 1: But do we allow that here in our culture where 325 00:16:31,119 --> 00:16:33,159 Speaker 1: we're always looking, you got to be top scorer. It's 326 00:16:33,169 --> 00:16:34,969 Speaker 1: always about being top of the class. 327 00:16:34,979 --> 00:16:37,210 Speaker 2: So we do need to change. I think 328 00:16:37,692 --> 00:16:40,403 Speaker 2: where both our teachers, we need to give them space 329 00:16:40,413 --> 00:16:42,153 Speaker 2: as well to be able to teach. And that's why 330 00:16:42,163 --> 00:16:44,432 Speaker 2: we removed the mid year exams so that they have 331 00:16:44,442 --> 00:16:47,223 Speaker 2: more space to explore, to do more of this project 332 00:16:47,232 --> 00:16:51,513 Speaker 2: work to do experiential learning, to be able to work 333 00:16:51,523 --> 00:16:55,252 Speaker 2: in groups, for students to teach one another, for students 334 00:16:55,263 --> 00:16:58,953 Speaker 2: to blunder a little bit and then figure it out 335 00:16:59,252 --> 00:17:03,263 Speaker 2: and that the exams are only a way of snapshot 336 00:17:03,395 --> 00:17:05,734 Speaker 2: how much you learn now and to give you an 337 00:17:05,744 --> 00:17:08,244 Speaker 2: idea of where your strengths are. So if you see 338 00:17:08,255 --> 00:17:10,885 Speaker 2: that in perspective, then you won't be so worried about. 339 00:17:10,895 --> 00:17:11,345 Speaker 2: At the same 340 00:17:11,355 --> 00:17:13,885 Speaker 1: time, I have to ask you very often come exam time, 341 00:17:13,916 --> 00:17:17,786 Speaker 1: suddenly all the cc stop. No more sports, everything's just 342 00:17:17,796 --> 00:17:20,286 Speaker 1: stopped for the next few months because it's exam time. 343 00:17:20,375 --> 00:17:23,764 Speaker 2: Well, we will hope to have other ways in which 344 00:17:23,776 --> 00:17:26,436 Speaker 2: our students will be able to experience. So there could 345 00:17:26,446 --> 00:17:28,385 Speaker 2: be a season. I mean, just like there's a sports 346 00:17:28,395 --> 00:17:29,015 Speaker 2: season right. 347 00:17:29,300 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 2: There are sometimes where you do need to hunker down. 348 00:17:31,689 --> 00:17:34,260 Speaker 2: But yes, you are. Right. And that we shouldn't see 349 00:17:34,270 --> 00:17:37,810 Speaker 2: CCS too early so that we have more time for 350 00:17:37,819 --> 00:17:39,938 Speaker 2: us to be able to experience that on the playing 351 00:17:39,949 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 2: fields as well. 352 00:17:43,310 --> 00:17:45,329 Speaker 1: There was a recent story that came out soon after 353 00:17:45,339 --> 00:17:48,420 Speaker 1: the Pisa study report was out. Is it about half 354 00:17:48,430 --> 00:17:51,270 Speaker 1: of Singapore parents asked about kids school work at least 355 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:55,419 Speaker 1: weekly below global average. That was the headline on today. 356 00:17:55,599 --> 00:17:57,290 Speaker 1: I was shocked when I saw that. I was thinking 357 00:17:57,300 --> 00:18:00,489 Speaker 1: great parents not asking about their kids homework, but the 358 00:18:00,500 --> 00:18:03,260 Speaker 1: angle was that it says parents are not hunkering down 359 00:18:03,270 --> 00:18:05,949 Speaker 1: and watching over their kids enough. So why do we 360 00:18:05,959 --> 00:18:08,239 Speaker 1: have that impression? Should we not at the end of 361 00:18:08,250 --> 00:18:10,599 Speaker 1: saying give them that independence to go and figure things 362 00:18:10,609 --> 00:18:11,079 Speaker 1: out and 363 00:18:11,410 --> 00:18:13,479 Speaker 1: have that free play? I don't want to look at 364 00:18:13,489 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: my kids' homework. I never did. I always get scold 365 00:18:16,530 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 1: with my wife. You don't know what your kids are doing. 366 00:18:18,130 --> 00:18:19,750 Speaker 1: I said not really. 367 00:18:21,569 --> 00:18:23,369 Speaker 1: So yeah, isn't a good thing that parents are not 368 00:18:23,380 --> 00:18:26,569 Speaker 1: so heavily involved in their children's education because otherwise it 369 00:18:26,579 --> 00:18:29,458 Speaker 1: will be like psle people say I'm taking the year off. 370 00:18:29,469 --> 00:18:30,889 Speaker 1: What do you do? I sit at home and say, 371 00:18:30,900 --> 00:18:32,619 Speaker 1: did you do the 10 year series? Did you do 372 00:18:32,630 --> 00:18:33,869 Speaker 1: that assessment? And 373 00:18:34,239 --> 00:18:35,079 Speaker 1: I think it ends up being 374 00:18:35,089 --> 00:18:38,219 Speaker 2: worse. So Steven, I was also a bit puzzled about that. 375 00:18:38,229 --> 00:18:39,979 Speaker 2: So I went down to take a look at what 376 00:18:39,989 --> 00:18:43,670 Speaker 2: the questions stem was asking the students and it was 377 00:18:43,719 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 2: do your parents take an interest in what you are learning? 378 00:18:47,859 --> 00:18:50,780 Speaker 2: So when we looked at all the Asian education systems 379 00:18:50,790 --> 00:18:53,910 Speaker 2: on Pisa, they all scored lower on that. So I 380 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,010 Speaker 2: suspect that it could be because the parents are interested, 381 00:18:58,020 --> 00:19:01,260 Speaker 2: but they're showing their interest in other ways more tuition. 382 00:19:02,719 --> 00:19:05,479 Speaker 2: I hate to speculate what it might be. So maybe 383 00:19:05,489 --> 00:19:08,060 Speaker 2: there's something that we can learn from that, take an 384 00:19:08,069 --> 00:19:11,339 Speaker 2: interest in what your child is learning, not ask them 385 00:19:11,510 --> 00:19:14,260 Speaker 2: what is your score on that test, but to ask them, 386 00:19:14,270 --> 00:19:17,419 Speaker 2: how have you been working with your friends on this project? 387 00:19:17,660 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 2: What excites you about school today? Not 388 00:19:20,890 --> 00:19:23,599 Speaker 1: so much about, did you do paper two from this 389 00:19:23,609 --> 00:19:26,979 Speaker 1: lesson on syllabus, whatever, you know, right down to that detail. 390 00:19:27,250 --> 00:19:30,069 Speaker 1: I guess we forget that kids today also are quite different. 391 00:19:30,079 --> 00:19:31,609 Speaker 1: You know, we all grew up in a time when 392 00:19:31,619 --> 00:19:33,829 Speaker 1: a lot of it was sort of drilled down. But 393 00:19:33,839 --> 00:19:36,819 Speaker 1: over the years there has been that, that shift. So 394 00:19:36,829 --> 00:19:40,069 Speaker 1: what would you say is the fundamental thing that we 395 00:19:40,079 --> 00:19:43,170 Speaker 1: need to solve moving forward? Where the crux where a 396 00:19:43,180 --> 00:19:46,239 Speaker 1: lot of the world is changing, but it feels like 397 00:19:46,250 --> 00:19:49,619 Speaker 1: parents perhaps sometimes are holding the kids back. Kids may 398 00:19:49,630 --> 00:19:53,239 Speaker 1: feel restrained by either the school, the system but also 399 00:19:53,250 --> 00:19:53,989 Speaker 1: from their parents. 400 00:19:54,719 --> 00:19:57,228 Speaker 1: What do you think would be key to helping us 401 00:19:57,300 --> 00:20:02,290 Speaker 1: move forward to embrace this brave new world, so to speak, Jason. 402 00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:08,010 Speaker 1: One thing that comes to mind is the need to 403 00:20:08,099 --> 00:20:12,540 Speaker 1: take a serious look at what education is all about 404 00:20:12,550 --> 00:20:16,130 Speaker 1: at a very fundamental level. Is it just about this 405 00:20:16,140 --> 00:20:19,209 Speaker 1: very utilitarian kind of approach where you have to do 406 00:20:19,219 --> 00:20:22,599 Speaker 1: well at any cost in order to acquire 407 00:20:22,662 --> 00:20:25,743 Speaker 1: as many credentials as you can. And there's supposed to 408 00:20:25,753 --> 00:20:28,612 Speaker 1: be this linear sort of relationship that's at play. And 409 00:20:28,623 --> 00:20:32,342 Speaker 1: so the acquisition of as many credentials as possible as 410 00:20:32,353 --> 00:20:37,052 Speaker 1: opposed to secure the rest of your life. And probably 411 00:20:37,061 --> 00:20:40,022 Speaker 1: that's not really the way to go heading forward. There's 412 00:20:40,032 --> 00:20:43,873 Speaker 1: much more to education than just the acquisition of credentials. 413 00:20:44,182 --> 00:20:46,321 Speaker 1: There's so much more to life. One thing that springs 414 00:20:46,333 --> 00:20:46,682 Speaker 1: to mind 415 00:20:47,225 --> 00:20:52,125 Speaker 1: this enthusiasm for learning, not just to get promoted at work, 416 00:20:52,135 --> 00:20:55,426 Speaker 1: not just to change jobs, but just learning about life, 417 00:20:55,436 --> 00:20:59,906 Speaker 1: learning about oneself, learning about the world at large. If 418 00:20:59,916 --> 00:21:02,995 Speaker 1: I had one big wish, I would wish for this 419 00:21:03,005 --> 00:21:07,504 Speaker 1: kind of fundamental re evaluation of the very purpose of 420 00:21:07,515 --> 00:21:14,385 Speaker 1: education with very strong emphasis on developing this enthusiasm and 421 00:21:14,829 --> 00:21:18,739 Speaker 1: constant joy of learning throughout one's life, right? So almost 422 00:21:18,750 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: a joy for life and a joy for learning. So 423 00:21:20,650 --> 00:21:21,729 Speaker 1: you're always curious. 424 00:21:21,770 --> 00:21:24,609 Speaker 2: I just wanted to add further to what Jason said, 425 00:21:24,619 --> 00:21:25,790 Speaker 2: which I totally agree. 426 00:21:26,109 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 2: But school really is definitely not for credentialing. It is 427 00:21:30,209 --> 00:21:34,069 Speaker 2: for you to learn the values, the skills, the dispositions 428 00:21:34,260 --> 00:21:38,160 Speaker 2: competencies that you need for life. That's the most fundamental 429 00:21:38,170 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 2: thing and to learn how to make friends also that 430 00:21:41,050 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 2: you will carry through life. And that's why school is 431 00:21:43,810 --> 00:21:45,400 Speaker 2: beyond an exam. 432 00:21:45,670 --> 00:21:50,659 Speaker 2: You have a full school experience, which includes your co 433 00:21:50,709 --> 00:21:56,729 Speaker 2: curricular activities, includes your leadership opportunities, includes even your time 434 00:21:56,739 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 2: spent in a canteen, right? Making friends or playing after 435 00:22:02,050 --> 00:22:05,410 Speaker 2: school with your friends. So it includes all that, that 436 00:22:05,420 --> 00:22:07,250 Speaker 2: is the entire school curriculum. 437 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:09,719 Speaker 2: But one new thing that I think we are quite 438 00:22:09,729 --> 00:22:14,339 Speaker 2: excited about moving forward is bringing in partnerships to the school, 439 00:22:14,349 --> 00:22:16,500 Speaker 2: which I think is very helpful because that's a bit 440 00:22:16,510 --> 00:22:19,170 Speaker 2: about bringing the world into the school so that our 441 00:22:19,180 --> 00:22:22,859 Speaker 2: students are prepared for the world. And we're seeing companies 442 00:22:22,869 --> 00:22:26,020 Speaker 2: more interested in working and partnering with our schools to 443 00:22:26,030 --> 00:22:31,119 Speaker 2: offer these real life experiences for the students to understand 444 00:22:31,130 --> 00:22:35,139 Speaker 2: and work through some authentic problem that might be in 445 00:22:35,150 --> 00:22:36,599 Speaker 2: the workspace and 446 00:22:36,699 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 2: the parents themselves too. So I think there's a positive 447 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,530 Speaker 2: they do it through their applied learning program, they do 448 00:22:42,540 --> 00:22:46,978 Speaker 2: it through design thinking. These are very worthwhile programs and 449 00:22:46,989 --> 00:22:48,790 Speaker 2: projects that the students are doing. 450 00:22:49,060 --> 00:22:51,750 Speaker 1: So is that the direction that we will be taking 451 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:53,829 Speaker 1: in terms of how syllabus change 452 00:22:53,839 --> 00:22:56,430 Speaker 2: in the. So every school now has got an applied 453 00:22:56,439 --> 00:22:59,869 Speaker 2: learning program which the students will carry out over a 454 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:01,729 Speaker 2: few hours per year. Will we 455 00:23:01,739 --> 00:23:04,069 Speaker 1: ever have a day where we can even give a 456 00:23:04,079 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: grade for participation? 457 00:23:06,079 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: I remember doing that university. I joined classes which had 458 00:23:08,569 --> 00:23:11,550 Speaker 1: a 20% of my grade was based on participation. So 459 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,109 Speaker 1: just by showing up in class, I already had some marks. 460 00:23:14,199 --> 00:23:16,208 Speaker 1: I mean, of course, I took part too, but it 461 00:23:16,219 --> 00:23:20,060 Speaker 1: encourages interaction and encourages one to speak up to be 462 00:23:20,069 --> 00:23:24,380 Speaker 1: involved because for very often, we're just there listening, taking 463 00:23:24,390 --> 00:23:24,739 Speaker 1: it in. 464 00:23:25,130 --> 00:23:27,670 Speaker 1: I find our kids don't want to speak up to 465 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:29,270 Speaker 1: share their thoughts or their opinions. 466 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,430 Speaker 2: So we want to encourage more intrinsic motivation and learning. 467 00:23:33,439 --> 00:23:36,739 Speaker 2: So we don't need to grade everything that might sometimes 468 00:23:36,750 --> 00:23:38,859 Speaker 2: take away the joy of learning when you have a grade, 469 00:23:38,869 --> 00:23:42,339 Speaker 2: when it becomes high stakes, high pressure. We are trying 470 00:23:42,349 --> 00:23:43,149 Speaker 2: to encourage us 471 00:23:43,229 --> 00:23:45,219 Speaker 2: students to speak up a lot more and hear the 472 00:23:45,229 --> 00:23:48,790 Speaker 2: student voice. It's not just in applied learning programs or 473 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,810 Speaker 2: in CCS, but it's also in everyday classes. And so 474 00:23:51,819 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 2: we've got to create more space for that to happen 475 00:23:54,670 --> 00:23:58,089 Speaker 2: and our teachers will be undergoing training to be able 476 00:23:58,099 --> 00:24:01,109 Speaker 2: to have those kind of pedagogies in the classes. 477 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:07,010 Speaker 1: I agree with Jason on sparking curiosity, lifelong learning. And 478 00:24:07,020 --> 00:24:10,449 Speaker 1: one concept that I hope we can consider 479 00:24:10,729 --> 00:24:15,250 Speaker 1: is the concept of apprenticeship. For thousands of years, people 480 00:24:15,260 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: have learned from great teachers through this apprenticeship process. And 481 00:24:21,010 --> 00:24:23,770 Speaker 1: in places like Germany, young people have to do apprenticeships 482 00:24:23,780 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: before they can start full time work. Can we find 483 00:24:26,449 --> 00:24:30,430 Speaker 1: older people? Working people that young students can buy 484 00:24:30,670 --> 00:24:34,649 Speaker 1: with can shadow at least for one or two weeks 485 00:24:34,660 --> 00:24:38,270 Speaker 1: in a year and to understand what life is in 486 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: the real world. And there's so much wisdom that working 487 00:24:41,369 --> 00:24:44,010 Speaker 1: adults can pass on to them. It goes beyond the 488 00:24:44,020 --> 00:24:48,619 Speaker 1: school environment and it's really about developing mastery of hard 489 00:24:48,630 --> 00:24:50,060 Speaker 1: skills and soft skills. 490 00:24:50,729 --> 00:24:52,698 Speaker 1: So thank you all for coming in and sharing your thoughts. 491 00:24:52,709 --> 00:24:55,189 Speaker 1: I think we're all on the same page once this 492 00:24:55,199 --> 00:24:57,869 Speaker 1: quote which said the mine is not just a vessel 493 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,660 Speaker 1: to be filled but a fire to be ignited. So 494 00:25:00,670 --> 00:25:02,650 Speaker 1: as Jason mentioned, I think we want to light that 495 00:25:02,660 --> 00:25:05,369 Speaker 1: fire within each of our young ones, to be curious 496 00:25:05,380 --> 00:25:07,429 Speaker 1: to learn, to be eager to find out more and 497 00:25:07,439 --> 00:25:09,859 Speaker 1: to just go out there and to experience life because 498 00:25:09,869 --> 00:25:11,900 Speaker 1: so much of what we do in life and we 499 00:25:11,910 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 1: discover in life later on is stuff that we can't 500 00:25:14,369 --> 00:25:15,930 Speaker 1: really learn through books. 501 00:25:16,420 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 1: Thank you all for listening. If you haven't yet followed us, 502 00:25:18,569 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 1: please do. This podcast is on Spotify and Apple and 503 00:25:21,650 --> 00:25:24,438 Speaker 1: also on youtube. Part of the matter is brought to 504 00:25:24,449 --> 00:25:26,709 Speaker 1: you by a great group of people here, Tiffany Ang 505 00:25:26,719 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: Joan Chan, Tsai Wen and Christina Robert and I'm Steven Chow. 506 00:25:29,969 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: Signing off. See you next week.