1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,340 Speaker 1: This is a. C. N. A podcast. 2 00:00:18,030 --> 00:00:20,920 Speaker 1: Alright. Just about set up like it. Thank you for 3 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:22,889 Speaker 1: speaking with me today. How are you doing? I'm good. 4 00:00:22,890 --> 00:00:25,340 Speaker 1: Thank you steve. All right, well, let's, I thought we'd 5 00:00:25,340 --> 00:00:28,370 Speaker 1: start this episode a little differently. Are you ready for 6 00:00:28,370 --> 00:00:31,670 Speaker 1: some quick fire word association? Always ready for some fun 7 00:00:31,670 --> 00:00:35,190 Speaker 1: steve good. Okay, I'll start with something and you give 8 00:00:35,190 --> 00:00:38,659 Speaker 1: me the first three words that come to your mind. Okay, 9 00:00:38,670 --> 00:00:41,580 Speaker 1: We'll warm up with an easy one. Okay, leon like 10 00:00:41,580 --> 00:00:42,870 Speaker 1: it handsome. 11 00:00:44,470 --> 00:00:49,870 Speaker 1: I'm not laughing honestly. I'm not more kind funny. You 12 00:00:49,870 --> 00:00:51,930 Speaker 1: see how I'm taking this chance to sell myself. Yes 13 00:00:51,930 --> 00:00:56,900 Speaker 1: and so eligible as well eligible bachelor. Is that right? Okay. 14 00:00:56,910 --> 00:01:02,140 Speaker 1: Next one Sienna correspondent work research fun. 15 00:01:02,740 --> 00:01:09,660 Speaker 1: South china sea complicated china and worships you and that 16 00:01:09,660 --> 00:01:16,140 Speaker 1: brings us nicely. Uss Nimitz, huge crowded, exciting. Okay, thanks wicket. 17 00:01:16,150 --> 00:01:17,610 Speaker 1: We're off to the perfect start. 18 00:01:22,050 --> 00:01:25,009 Speaker 1: The U. S. Is keen to flex its muscles in 19 00:01:25,010 --> 00:01:28,060 Speaker 1: some of the world's most hotly contested waters. And the 20 00:01:28,060 --> 00:01:31,590 Speaker 1: aircraft carrier Nimitz and the strike group, it leads into 21 00:01:31,590 --> 00:01:34,530 Speaker 1: the south china sea some two weeks ago where it 22 00:01:34,530 --> 00:01:37,790 Speaker 1: will carry out patrols to demonstrate America's commitment to the 23 00:01:37,790 --> 00:01:38,789 Speaker 1: indo pacific 24 00:01:40,890 --> 00:01:44,229 Speaker 1: my colleague Shahida Othman there explaining the Nimitz arrival in 25 00:01:44,230 --> 00:01:47,150 Speaker 1: the region in early january. It comes at a time 26 00:01:47,150 --> 00:01:50,340 Speaker 1: of increased military presence in the area with china, the U. K. 27 00:01:50,340 --> 00:01:54,700 Speaker 1: France and Australia also active in the disputed waters, experts 28 00:01:54,700 --> 00:01:58,410 Speaker 1: have warned of the risk of miscalculation, especially with no 29 00:01:58,410 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: unified code of conduct and that brings me back to 30 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:02,500 Speaker 1: like it. 31 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,730 Speaker 1: Why could you just come back from the unique experience 32 00:02:05,730 --> 00:02:08,360 Speaker 1: of actually being on the U. S. Estimates. Tell me 33 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,700 Speaker 1: how you managed that sort of access. And what was 34 00:02:10,700 --> 00:02:12,740 Speaker 1: it like landing on an aircraft carrier in the south 35 00:02:12,740 --> 00:02:15,060 Speaker 1: china sea. Right steve. It was basically an invite by 36 00:02:15,060 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 1: the U. S. Embassy but journalists can basically right into 37 00:02:17,850 --> 00:02:19,900 Speaker 1: any embassy in Singapore and if they have a warship 38 00:02:19,900 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: visiting the area you can make a request to go 39 00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:25,570 Speaker 1: aboard that warship. It's funny you ask how it's like 40 00:02:25,580 --> 00:02:29,389 Speaker 1: landing and taking off from the aircraft because it's very exciting. 41 00:02:29,530 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: We took a greyhound which is basically a carrier for 42 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:34,679 Speaker 1: cargo from one of the military bases in Singapore. Two 43 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:37,420 Speaker 1: hours it took us to reach the south china sea 44 00:02:37,430 --> 00:02:41,060 Speaker 1: where the USs Nimitz was. And yes it's a huge 45 00:02:41,070 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: aircraft but it's not built for long taxiing so you 46 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:46,829 Speaker 1: cannot have the luxury of you know taxiing for long. 47 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,100 Speaker 1: It was going to say it's like a really short runway. Exactly. 48 00:02:49,100 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: Very abrupt. Exactly, very very abrupt indeed because as we 49 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:53,590 Speaker 1: were descent, 50 00:02:53,615 --> 00:02:56,595 Speaker 1: the sailors on board the ship will have to manually 51 00:02:56,595 --> 00:03:00,015 Speaker 1: force the plane to an immediate halt. So I watched 52 00:03:00,014 --> 00:03:02,145 Speaker 1: it from an outside point of view. So when the 53 00:03:02,155 --> 00:03:05,265 Speaker 1: aircraft is landing the plane will lower what's known as 54 00:03:05,264 --> 00:03:07,265 Speaker 1: a tail hook at the back of the plane and 55 00:03:07,264 --> 00:03:09,714 Speaker 1: the function of the tailhook is for it to basically 56 00:03:09,725 --> 00:03:13,334 Speaker 1: catch one of four cable wires on the warship. and 57 00:03:13,335 --> 00:03:16,014 Speaker 1: when it does catch it it will halt immediately. So 58 00:03:16,014 --> 00:03:17,700 Speaker 1: you can imagine that kind of impact 59 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,750 Speaker 1: upon takeoff. You will go from zero to more than 60 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,709 Speaker 1: 200 km per hour in just a couple of seconds. 61 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: And I managed to take a video filming me and 62 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 1: my cameraman reactions. I'm going to play it for you 63 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,300 Speaker 1: to see our viewers can only hear the background noise 64 00:03:34,300 --> 00:03:36,630 Speaker 1: of okay, I'll do my best to describe. Okay, so 65 00:03:36,630 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: this is moments before we took off, okay, you're looking 66 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:41,770 Speaker 1: quite comfortable there 67 00:03:42,140 --> 00:03:46,170 Speaker 1: and then you see the impact. Yes, exactly. And if 68 00:03:46,170 --> 00:03:50,210 Speaker 1: you notice I was smiling but in fact I was 69 00:03:50,220 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: smiling because I could have any other expression in that 70 00:03:53,450 --> 00:03:55,460 Speaker 1: four seconds or so 71 00:03:55,610 --> 00:03:59,020 Speaker 1: I was frozen. I couldn't do anything except capture my 72 00:03:59,020 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: last facial expression and that's the kind of impact that 73 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:04,940 Speaker 1: you have. So it must, I must say it's quite 74 00:04:04,940 --> 00:04:07,970 Speaker 1: the experience steve remarkable to see some impact on your 75 00:04:07,970 --> 00:04:10,670 Speaker 1: body just coming to that halt so quickly fill us 76 00:04:10,670 --> 00:04:12,270 Speaker 1: in on some of the details so you can get 77 00:04:12,270 --> 00:04:14,540 Speaker 1: a better idea of what it's like on an aircraft 78 00:04:14,540 --> 00:04:16,539 Speaker 1: carrier of this size. How big is it? How many 79 00:04:16,540 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: people are on board? How long are they had see for? 80 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,010 Speaker 1: And obviously the question of food has to come into 81 00:04:22,010 --> 00:04:22,820 Speaker 1: play as well. 82 00:04:22,952 --> 00:04:24,623 Speaker 1: One of the first things we did when we landed 83 00:04:24,623 --> 00:04:26,923 Speaker 1: was to have lunch. But Steve I didn't have much 84 00:04:26,923 --> 00:04:29,683 Speaker 1: of an appetite because the moment I landed, I'm not 85 00:04:29,683 --> 00:04:32,183 Speaker 1: ashamed to say this. I felt seasick so I didn't 86 00:04:32,193 --> 00:04:34,853 Speaker 1: eat much, but it is huge. Unfortunately we didn't have 87 00:04:34,853 --> 00:04:37,843 Speaker 1: a drone shot off the aircraft carrier, but it's roughly 88 00:04:37,843 --> 00:04:40,452 Speaker 1: the size of the cruise ship. There are about 5000 89 00:04:40,452 --> 00:04:43,513 Speaker 1: people on board so it's relatively crowded. I didn't get 90 00:04:43,513 --> 00:04:45,813 Speaker 1: a chance to visit the kitchen, but you can imagine 91 00:04:45,813 --> 00:04:49,563 Speaker 1: because these sailors are out from say between six and 92 00:04:49,573 --> 00:04:50,282 Speaker 1: eight months. 93 00:04:50,296 --> 00:04:53,596 Speaker 1: So the kind of storage of food has to be massive. 94 00:04:53,606 --> 00:04:56,566 Speaker 1: 6 to 8 months at sea. Exactly. So one thing 95 00:04:56,565 --> 00:04:58,806 Speaker 1: good is that some of them do have access to wifi. 96 00:04:58,806 --> 00:05:01,136 Speaker 1: So you're not exactly always very bored. Of course when 97 00:05:01,136 --> 00:05:03,275 Speaker 1: we went on board a ship, we didn't have Wifi access. 98 00:05:03,286 --> 00:05:05,706 Speaker 1: So I went to the cafeteria to eat and we 99 00:05:05,716 --> 00:05:08,046 Speaker 1: eat exactly what the sailors would eat. I would say 100 00:05:08,046 --> 00:05:11,346 Speaker 1: it's a relatively good restaurant standard kind of food. I 101 00:05:11,346 --> 00:05:14,316 Speaker 1: have pita bread. I have sweet broccoli salad but like 102 00:05:14,315 --> 00:05:16,565 Speaker 1: I said, the food was good. I just didn't have 103 00:05:16,565 --> 00:05:17,626 Speaker 1: much of an appetite. 104 00:05:18,010 --> 00:05:20,540 Speaker 1: That's a shame. I hope. How long were you on 105 00:05:20,540 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: the boat for in total for this story? Some 3-4 hours. Okay. Okay. 106 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,450 Speaker 1: And I want to ask if you brought your aviators 107 00:05:27,460 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: and if you don't have a call sign because these 108 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: kinds of ships always make me think of the movie 109 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:33,510 Speaker 1: top gun and what else stood out for you or 110 00:05:33,510 --> 00:05:36,540 Speaker 1: surprised you about your experience on board. Well Steve you 111 00:05:36,540 --> 00:05:38,919 Speaker 1: might be surprised if I say this, but I have 112 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:40,779 Speaker 1: never watched top gun. 113 00:05:41,370 --> 00:05:44,500 Speaker 1: Everybody who might tell I went and bought a U. S. Aircraft. 114 00:05:44,550 --> 00:05:47,330 Speaker 1: Oh Top Gun Top Gun. I know of the movie 115 00:05:47,330 --> 00:05:48,740 Speaker 1: but I have not watched it and you haven't seen 116 00:05:48,740 --> 00:05:53,229 Speaker 1: the sequel Maverick either then none. But during lunch there 117 00:05:53,230 --> 00:05:55,870 Speaker 1: were some casual conversation, one of the journalists asked the 118 00:05:55,870 --> 00:05:58,580 Speaker 1: sailor how accurate is Top Gun? That was the next 119 00:05:58,580 --> 00:06:00,650 Speaker 1: question I wanted to ask you and he said very 120 00:06:00,650 --> 00:06:00,979 Speaker 1: accurate 121 00:06:00,990 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: and that was when I said you must watch Top 122 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,659 Speaker 1: Gun because I've already been on a warship. What stood 123 00:06:06,660 --> 00:06:09,740 Speaker 1: out for me immediately was that there's so many layers 124 00:06:09,740 --> 00:06:12,370 Speaker 1: or levels of stairs and they're quite steep and of 125 00:06:12,370 --> 00:06:15,180 Speaker 1: course there are signs telling the crew to not run 126 00:06:15,190 --> 00:06:18,410 Speaker 1: but you can see how expert they are. They've spent 127 00:06:18,410 --> 00:06:22,380 Speaker 1: so long at sea, they go up and down very fast. 128 00:06:22,390 --> 00:06:24,270 Speaker 1: The other thing that stood out for me was that 129 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:26,460 Speaker 1: the crew members who are married, 130 00:06:26,650 --> 00:06:29,570 Speaker 1: they don't wear their actual wedding bands because I've noticed 131 00:06:29,580 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 1: many of them wearing rubber rubber wedding bands, some full black, 132 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: some red, some colorful, some intercourse and I asked them 133 00:06:37,130 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 1: is this compulsory but they said no it's really because 134 00:06:40,610 --> 00:06:42,630 Speaker 1: for the safety of their work they would rather not 135 00:06:42,630 --> 00:06:47,620 Speaker 1: have actual jewelry but use a rubber wedding band. So interesting. Exactly. 136 00:06:47,630 --> 00:06:49,190 Speaker 1: The other thing I noticed was there are quite a 137 00:06:49,190 --> 00:06:49,380 Speaker 1: number 138 00:06:49,397 --> 00:06:52,157 Speaker 1: of sailors with tattoos, of course the story is that 139 00:06:52,166 --> 00:06:54,337 Speaker 1: traditionally sailors are out at sea for so long. They 140 00:06:54,337 --> 00:06:56,317 Speaker 1: have nothing better to do, they talk to each other, 141 00:06:56,327 --> 00:06:59,637 Speaker 1: but some also tell me that it's for very practical 142 00:06:59,637 --> 00:07:03,747 Speaker 1: and perhaps grim reasons because your tattoos identify you uniquely. 143 00:07:03,747 --> 00:07:07,547 Speaker 1: So if you're a sailor, unfortunately if things do happen, 144 00:07:07,557 --> 00:07:11,027 Speaker 1: that sort of becomes your identity, wow, that I never 145 00:07:11,027 --> 00:07:12,130 Speaker 1: realized that that would be 146 00:07:12,144 --> 00:07:15,874 Speaker 1: something that would be considered. Yeah, okay, so who did 147 00:07:15,874 --> 00:07:18,104 Speaker 1: you speak to while you were there? And what did 148 00:07:18,104 --> 00:07:20,334 Speaker 1: they say about the job? Oh, they were all very 149 00:07:20,334 --> 00:07:24,214 Speaker 1: passionate about what they did. They all believed in their training. 150 00:07:24,224 --> 00:07:27,544 Speaker 1: There's a range of jobs on board, including media liaison 151 00:07:27,554 --> 00:07:30,624 Speaker 1: officers and they're not just there to meet journalists, they're 152 00:07:30,624 --> 00:07:33,844 Speaker 1: in charge of broadcasting messages to the crew. I'm told 153 00:07:33,844 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: they even have a way, 154 00:07:34,891 --> 00:07:38,831 Speaker 1: weekly bingo session that gets the crew very excited. Of course, 155 00:07:38,831 --> 00:07:42,501 Speaker 1: they're also very serious jobs, even though they're not actively patrolling. 156 00:07:42,501 --> 00:07:45,621 Speaker 1: Some of them on board are actually doing drills. So 157 00:07:45,631 --> 00:07:48,401 Speaker 1: I was on the landing deck when I saw an 158 00:07:48,401 --> 00:07:51,471 Speaker 1: actual drill taking place. Someone was carrying a mannequin, they 159 00:07:51,471 --> 00:07:53,821 Speaker 1: went on board a chopper that went out to see. 160 00:07:53,831 --> 00:07:55,931 Speaker 1: I'm told that the mannequin is supposed to be a 161 00:07:55,931 --> 00:07:57,631 Speaker 1: victim and there will be 162 00:07:57,780 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: divers going into the south china sea to retrieve that 163 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,310 Speaker 1: mannequin as part of your search and rescue mission. So 164 00:08:03,310 --> 00:08:05,310 Speaker 1: I suppose they all have jobs to do. I mean 165 00:08:05,310 --> 00:08:07,020 Speaker 1: they're on the boat for so long months at a time, 166 00:08:07,020 --> 00:08:09,490 Speaker 1: but they have, you know, an eight hour day shift. 167 00:08:09,490 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: Is that how it works? I don't know how long 168 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,380 Speaker 1: they work, but if you're safe, you're stuck at sea 169 00:08:13,380 --> 00:08:15,410 Speaker 1: for eight months. You may as well be doing something 170 00:08:15,420 --> 00:08:18,140 Speaker 1: that I was no longer count. I suppose that is 171 00:08:18,140 --> 00:08:19,820 Speaker 1: very true. So you told me a little bit about 172 00:08:19,820 --> 00:08:20,310 Speaker 1: the roles 173 00:08:20,326 --> 00:08:22,476 Speaker 1: they play and the job they do on board. What 174 00:08:22,476 --> 00:08:24,836 Speaker 1: about the bigger picture? Are they aware of? What do 175 00:08:24,836 --> 00:08:26,916 Speaker 1: they think about that? Right. So the bigger picture is 176 00:08:26,916 --> 00:08:31,046 Speaker 1: really for them to give this sense of stability and peace. Now, 177 00:08:31,046 --> 00:08:33,566 Speaker 1: I chatted with some of the sailors. Of course they 178 00:08:33,566 --> 00:08:36,776 Speaker 1: tell me that politics aside, what they really trained to 179 00:08:36,776 --> 00:08:39,796 Speaker 1: do is to give the region peace and stability. And 180 00:08:39,796 --> 00:08:42,856 Speaker 1: they are trained to deescalate situations. And 181 00:08:42,872 --> 00:08:44,922 Speaker 1: and in that conversation, you get a sense that they 182 00:08:44,922 --> 00:08:47,352 Speaker 1: are very passionate with what they do. If you take 183 00:08:47,362 --> 00:08:50,212 Speaker 1: politics out of the picture and just focus on what 184 00:08:50,212 --> 00:08:53,642 Speaker 1: they do. It's a very meaningful job. Thanks weekend. That 185 00:08:53,642 --> 00:08:56,072 Speaker 1: sets us up nicely to talk about the bigger picture 186 00:08:56,072 --> 00:08:58,732 Speaker 1: at play in the south china sea, with nations big 187 00:08:58,732 --> 00:09:02,092 Speaker 1: and small from far and wide competing for influence, dominance 188 00:09:02,092 --> 00:09:05,420 Speaker 1: and resources in one of the world's busiest shipping lanes. 189 00:09:10,290 --> 00:09:10,770 Speaker 1: Mhm 190 00:09:13,110 --> 00:09:15,920 Speaker 2: Are you looking for ways to make your money work 191 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:20,290 Speaker 2: harder for you or need tips on saving, investing and 192 00:09:20,290 --> 00:09:24,970 Speaker 2: making financial decisions? Join me, Sarah al Khaldi on money talks. 193 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 2: CNN's top personal finance podcast from investment basics too. 194 00:09:30,370 --> 00:09:34,110 Speaker 2: The fire movement and legacy planning. I look at financial 195 00:09:34,110 --> 00:09:37,510 Speaker 2: trends and new stories that matter to you. Check out 196 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,650 Speaker 2: our complete playlist on the C. N. A. Ap Apple 197 00:09:40,650 --> 00:09:44,780 Speaker 2: and google podcasts or Spotify. You can also follow us 198 00:09:44,790 --> 00:09:47,410 Speaker 2: or subscribe for new weekly episodes. 199 00:09:54,110 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: The chinese are deploying their military assets into the region 200 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:02,110 Speaker 1: now because they can, they are now able to secure 201 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: whatever claims they make in the south china sea and 202 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,020 Speaker 1: back it up with actual military assets instead of just rhetoric. 203 00:10:09,030 --> 00:10:10,130 Speaker 1: What we've noticed 204 00:10:10,155 --> 00:10:14,525 Speaker 1: is that the moment a U. S. Warship appears, this 205 00:10:14,525 --> 00:10:18,175 Speaker 1: chinese ships would also tend to disappear, which shows that 206 00:10:18,175 --> 00:10:22,075 Speaker 1: the U. S. Military presence indeed has some sort of 207 00:10:22,075 --> 00:10:26,255 Speaker 1: a deterrent effect on china's behavior in the region. That's 208 00:10:26,255 --> 00:10:29,675 Speaker 1: Rizwan Rama Principal, a defense analyst James. He's part of 209 00:10:29,675 --> 00:10:32,115 Speaker 1: like its story on his visit to the Nimitz, which 210 00:10:32,115 --> 00:10:34,155 Speaker 1: you can find on Sienna dot Asia. 211 00:10:34,850 --> 00:10:37,330 Speaker 1: He'd go on to say that the indo pacific that 212 00:10:37,330 --> 00:10:41,450 Speaker 1: includes the south china sea is the fastest militarizing region 213 00:10:41,460 --> 00:10:44,180 Speaker 1: in the world. Despite what's going on in Ukraine? 214 00:10:47,670 --> 00:10:51,370 Speaker 1: You're back with me steve lie and like it like it. 215 00:10:51,380 --> 00:10:54,980 Speaker 1: Why is everyone so interested in the south china sea? 216 00:10:54,990 --> 00:10:56,979 Speaker 1: Well steve like you said, it's one of the busiest 217 00:10:56,990 --> 00:11:00,479 Speaker 1: shipping areas. In fact, one third of the world's ships 218 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:04,090 Speaker 1: passed through that area. So for economic reasons, it's also 219 00:11:04,090 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: believe that there's a lot of natural gas and resources 220 00:11:06,610 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: in the south china sea. And you can imagine if 221 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,300 Speaker 1: you have access to that vast body of water, it's 222 00:11:11,300 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 1: thriving for fisheries. But on the political and defense 223 00:11:15,095 --> 00:11:19,175 Speaker 1: inside, I'm told that perhaps china uses that area to 224 00:11:19,175 --> 00:11:21,925 Speaker 1: park their submarines. So a lot is at stake here 225 00:11:21,925 --> 00:11:24,715 Speaker 1: for people who have claims on the south china sea. 226 00:11:24,725 --> 00:11:27,595 Speaker 1: Let's talk about that country, then that's taking the biggest 227 00:11:27,595 --> 00:11:30,255 Speaker 1: claim in the south china sea. Tell us about china's 228 00:11:30,255 --> 00:11:33,655 Speaker 1: claim right now, china insists that it is the first 229 00:11:33,665 --> 00:11:36,255 Speaker 1: to discover that vast body of water and it is 230 00:11:36,255 --> 00:11:39,390 Speaker 1: the first to exercise sovereignty and jurisdiction. 231 00:11:39,570 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: It even cites maps that show that the part of 232 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,010 Speaker 1: water belongs to China. And of course there's this controversial 233 00:11:46,020 --> 00:11:49,900 Speaker 1: nine dash line which is basically an imaginary boundary that 234 00:11:49,900 --> 00:11:53,079 Speaker 1: China draws on its map, which marks out some 90% 235 00:11:53,090 --> 00:11:55,439 Speaker 1: of the South China Sea. And it claims that one 236 00:11:55,450 --> 00:11:55,860 Speaker 1: of 237 00:11:55,875 --> 00:11:58,475 Speaker 1: because it's controversial because other claimants will say, hey, your 238 00:11:58,475 --> 00:12:00,814 Speaker 1: nine dash line eats into my territory and which are 239 00:12:00,815 --> 00:12:04,375 Speaker 1: the other claimants in southeast Asia. We've got Vietnam brunei 240 00:12:04,385 --> 00:12:08,275 Speaker 1: Malaysia Indonesia territories also like Taiwan are claiming parts of 241 00:12:08,275 --> 00:12:10,745 Speaker 1: the south china sea and the Philippines also plays a 242 00:12:10,745 --> 00:12:12,165 Speaker 1: part in it as well. Because 243 00:12:12,470 --> 00:12:15,650 Speaker 1: As you mentioned, several Southeast Asian nations have claims to 244 00:12:15,650 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: the body of water. In 2016. An international tribunal ruled 245 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,380 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly in favor of the Philippines in determining that major 246 00:12:22,380 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 1: elements of China's claim to the South China Sea, including 247 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: its nine dash line that you mentioned. And recent land 248 00:12:28,170 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 1: reclamation activities as well. And other activities in the Philippine 249 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 1: waters were unlawful, but they aren't the only claimants, 250 00:12:34,830 --> 00:12:37,809 Speaker 1: Right? And that's the problem. The other claimers also have 251 00:12:37,820 --> 00:12:41,110 Speaker 1: access to warships and when you send your warships in 252 00:12:41,110 --> 00:12:44,030 Speaker 1: that area, there's always a potential for clash. In fact, 253 00:12:44,030 --> 00:12:46,150 Speaker 1: there have been clashes in the past. One of the 254 00:12:46,150 --> 00:12:50,569 Speaker 1: more significant ones was back in 1988 when the navies 255 00:12:50,580 --> 00:12:53,970 Speaker 1: of Vietnam and China clash. And in that incident, some 256 00:12:53,970 --> 00:12:54,080 Speaker 1: say 257 00:12:54,090 --> 00:12:58,189 Speaker 1: 70 Vietnamese soldiers were killed these days. We also see 258 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:01,870 Speaker 1: military drills on on the south china sea U. S. Warships, 259 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,979 Speaker 1: china warships and there's always the potential for miscalculation that 260 00:13:05,980 --> 00:13:09,950 Speaker 1: could escalate into conflicts. There are big regional players. There 261 00:13:09,950 --> 00:13:12,630 Speaker 1: are small regional players, but there are also big western 262 00:13:12,630 --> 00:13:13,350 Speaker 1: powers 263 00:13:13,530 --> 00:13:16,329 Speaker 1: that are increasingly showing interest in the south china sea. 264 00:13:16,340 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: The US, as you've seen firsthand with the Nimitz is 265 00:13:19,290 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: taking it incredibly serious as well. Yeah, that's right. Like 266 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:24,420 Speaker 1: I said when I was speaking to the sailors, they 267 00:13:24,420 --> 00:13:27,610 Speaker 1: take their job very seriously. Of course the big picture 268 00:13:27,610 --> 00:13:31,070 Speaker 1: plan is for Washington to continue sending military ships 269 00:13:31,085 --> 00:13:34,045 Speaker 1: to this part of the world to show its presence earlier. 270 00:13:34,045 --> 00:13:37,125 Speaker 1: We heard from my interview, we reason drama from jane's. 271 00:13:37,125 --> 00:13:39,775 Speaker 1: He's a defense analyst. He also told me that the 272 00:13:39,775 --> 00:13:43,045 Speaker 1: presence of U. S. Warships does have a deterrent factor 273 00:13:43,045 --> 00:13:46,505 Speaker 1: because he's noticed that when the U. S. Warships turn up, 274 00:13:46,515 --> 00:13:48,635 Speaker 1: the china vessels sort of disappear. 275 00:13:48,770 --> 00:13:52,580 Speaker 1: But he also mentions that the presence of warships tend 276 00:13:52,580 --> 00:13:55,110 Speaker 1: to attract other warships because they also want to come 277 00:13:55,110 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: in and see what's going on to also show some 278 00:13:57,160 --> 00:13:59,949 Speaker 1: presence there in lies the problem because there is no 279 00:13:59,950 --> 00:14:02,900 Speaker 1: unified code of conduct for the navy's to adhere to. 280 00:14:03,059 --> 00:14:06,180 Speaker 1: So for example, if steve your worship comes to what 281 00:14:06,190 --> 00:14:09,069 Speaker 1: I think is my territory, I may tell you to 282 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,780 Speaker 1: back off. But if you don't I may then start 283 00:14:11,780 --> 00:14:14,750 Speaker 1: to fire say a volley of water cannons. And if 284 00:14:14,750 --> 00:14:17,190 Speaker 1: you take it the wrong way you may retaliate by 285 00:14:17,190 --> 00:14:19,580 Speaker 1: firing the cannons. And then if this goes to and 286 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:21,210 Speaker 1: it could escalate into something 287 00:14:21,225 --> 00:14:24,385 Speaker 1: even more serious. And these are examples of how conflicts 288 00:14:24,385 --> 00:14:28,785 Speaker 1: could be miscalculated and escalate into skirmishes at sea rather. Yes. 289 00:14:28,785 --> 00:14:31,285 Speaker 1: And the fear is that that could then escalate into 290 00:14:31,285 --> 00:14:35,665 Speaker 1: a bigger conflict china and Asean have been negotiating a 291 00:14:35,665 --> 00:14:38,405 Speaker 1: south china sea code of conduct for years. You just 292 00:14:38,405 --> 00:14:39,375 Speaker 1: mentioned it just then 293 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: to manage the longstanding tensions. Are we any closer to 294 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: that becoming a thing, I think not at all in 295 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:48,860 Speaker 1: the last two years, of course, Covid sort of slowed everything. 296 00:14:48,860 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: But even without Covid, many analysts don't think that it 297 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,130 Speaker 1: will make any progress at all china. And the claimants 298 00:14:55,130 --> 00:14:58,180 Speaker 1: signed that declaration of conduct more than 20 years ago. 299 00:14:58,190 --> 00:15:01,020 Speaker 1: And that's just a first step document that paves the 300 00:15:01,020 --> 00:15:02,870 Speaker 1: way for the actual code of conduct. 301 00:15:03,130 --> 00:15:05,750 Speaker 1: And there are some key reasons that analysts point out 302 00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:08,290 Speaker 1: why there's not going to go anywhere first, they'll need 303 00:15:08,290 --> 00:15:11,220 Speaker 1: to agree on a geographical scope. So for instance, Vietnam 304 00:15:11,220 --> 00:15:14,140 Speaker 1: will say they want to include the Paracel islands and 305 00:15:14,140 --> 00:15:16,190 Speaker 1: china would say no. And then the Philippines would want 306 00:15:16,190 --> 00:15:19,020 Speaker 1: to include the Scarborough show and china would say no. 307 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,790 Speaker 1: The other issue is the questions of a deuce and 308 00:15:21,790 --> 00:15:24,430 Speaker 1: don't of the conduct china of course will not want 309 00:15:24,430 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: to have its hands tied. So it doesn't want people 310 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 1: to ban its activities. And of course there's also a 311 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,989 Speaker 1: question of whether the code of conduct should be legally binding. Now, 312 00:15:32,990 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: most of the claimants are okay with that, but china 313 00:15:35,570 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: on the other hand, not want to be legally bound 314 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: by the conduct, add to that china is more fond 315 00:15:41,250 --> 00:15:44,430 Speaker 1: of negotiating one on one with the claimants rather than 316 00:15:44,430 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: have negotiations with them 317 00:15:46,253 --> 00:15:48,783 Speaker 1: as a whole. So where does that leave us then, 318 00:15:48,873 --> 00:15:51,273 Speaker 1: as we move forward? As you know, countries around the 319 00:15:51,273 --> 00:15:54,313 Speaker 1: region are looking to invest more in their militaries. There's 320 00:15:54,313 --> 00:15:57,073 Speaker 1: more interest in the south china sea? More interest into 321 00:15:57,073 --> 00:16:00,403 Speaker 1: Southeast Asia in general, what do you see happening? Wow! 322 00:16:00,413 --> 00:16:02,923 Speaker 1: Well I read a quote somewhere by a very senior 323 00:16:02,923 --> 00:16:07,473 Speaker 1: diplomat that when things escalate, they pretend to discuss the 324 00:16:07,473 --> 00:16:10,573 Speaker 1: south china sea code of conduct and when things are 325 00:16:10,583 --> 00:16:12,653 Speaker 1: at peace, they sort of leave it as it is. 326 00:16:12,663 --> 00:16:13,210 Speaker 1: So in a way, 327 00:16:13,226 --> 00:16:16,046 Speaker 1: the code of conduct is sort of seen as a 328 00:16:16,046 --> 00:16:20,806 Speaker 1: tool to manage if you will, emotions or political willpower 329 00:16:20,806 --> 00:16:23,396 Speaker 1: from all claimants. But at the end of the day, 330 00:16:23,406 --> 00:16:26,246 Speaker 1: what this really tells us is that security is such 331 00:16:26,246 --> 00:16:31,066 Speaker 1: a vulnerable element because if all parties get heated up, 332 00:16:31,076 --> 00:16:33,166 Speaker 1: we get affected too. I mean south china sea is 333 00:16:33,166 --> 00:16:36,106 Speaker 1: very far from Singapore, some two hours plane right out 334 00:16:36,106 --> 00:16:38,916 Speaker 1: of sight out of mind. But if something happens outside 335 00:16:38,926 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: it's going to affect our lives, 336 00:16:40,470 --> 00:16:42,940 Speaker 1: our shipping routes going to be disrupted, the economy is 337 00:16:42,940 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: going to suffer. So I think that's quite important for 338 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:47,690 Speaker 1: us to bear in mind. I think the lessons we've 339 00:16:47,690 --> 00:16:50,010 Speaker 1: learned from Ukraine is that even a conflict between two 340 00:16:50,010 --> 00:16:54,690 Speaker 1: nations has worldwide ramifications. Like you've just helped our listeners 341 00:16:54,690 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: really appreciate what's going on in the south china sea 342 00:16:57,360 --> 00:16:58,900 Speaker 1: and there are a lot of elements to it. What 343 00:16:58,900 --> 00:17:01,229 Speaker 1: would you say is the biggest thing that they should 344 00:17:01,230 --> 00:17:03,330 Speaker 1: think about when they think about this waterway. 345 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:07,419 Speaker 1: I think it's important to not take security for granted. 346 00:17:07,430 --> 00:17:09,889 Speaker 1: I mean it's a big motherhood statement. But if you 347 00:17:09,890 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 1: think about it, everything is interlinked. So if we take 348 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:15,070 Speaker 1: a plane and we fly and we see a body 349 00:17:15,070 --> 00:17:18,330 Speaker 1: of water, just remember that there can be potential clashes 350 00:17:18,330 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 1: that happen and therefore security is something that we cannot 351 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:23,900 Speaker 1: take for granted. Thank you. Like it's been a pleasure 352 00:17:23,900 --> 00:17:26,400 Speaker 1: to speak to you as always. Pleasure is mine steve 353 00:17:26,410 --> 00:17:27,610 Speaker 1: go and watch top gun 354 00:17:33,740 --> 00:17:36,729 Speaker 1: as I'm sure you've realized there's no easy fix to 355 00:17:36,730 --> 00:17:40,270 Speaker 1: the south china sea conundrum. So many nations with so 356 00:17:40,270 --> 00:17:43,980 Speaker 1: many competing interests and alliances. It's hard to see a 357 00:17:43,980 --> 00:17:47,060 Speaker 1: solution or even a code of conduct that will satisfy 358 00:17:47,060 --> 00:17:50,790 Speaker 1: all claimants, conflict and competition is often seen as a 359 00:17:50,790 --> 00:17:54,570 Speaker 1: zero sum game for one side to win another has 360 00:17:54,570 --> 00:17:57,700 Speaker 1: to lose. But as we've seen with Ukraine and Russia, 361 00:17:57,710 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: once the lines of battle have been crossed, there are 362 00:18:00,850 --> 00:18:02,780 Speaker 1: no winners only losers. 363 00:18:03,660 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: The Tv version. Sienna correspondent is on sienna every Wednesday 364 00:18:07,369 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: at 9:30 p.m. You can also watch it whenever you 365 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:13,530 Speaker 1: like on CNN dot asia do you like and subscribe 366 00:18:13,530 --> 00:18:15,810 Speaker 1: to this podcast version that takes you behind the scenes 367 00:18:15,810 --> 00:18:18,310 Speaker 1: with our correspondence and thank you for listening to our 368 00:18:18,310 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 1: podcast team is made up of Darwin, Christina robert sarah 369 00:18:22,350 --> 00:18:22,930 Speaker 1: and me steve